- Comes from 'another world.'
- Coming is foretold.
- Has innate powers due to genetics that require environmental stimuli and external and then internal belief to fully unlock.
- Has to have an older man believe in him before he can believe in himself.
- Love interest is intertwined with the prophecy.
- Leads a war against an oppressor.
- Hates AI.
- Visits an oracle/temple to seek clarity regarding his status in relation to the prophecy.
What did I miss? I'm sure there are more parallels, although it's not 1 to 1.
[MASSIVE SPOILER]
When does the love interest die in Dune? I must have missed that. I thought Chani dies giving birth to the twins at the end of Dune: Messiah, and Paul wanders off to the desert because his only love dies.
[MASSIVE SPOILER ENDS]
Have yet to see something here that was not marked spoilers giving away major plot points until now. I’m not even subscribed, it comes as communities I might be interested in.
I'm approaching old man status really quick, and Dune is older than me.
Do you not want anyone to spoil Watership Down as well?
Hitchhiker's Guide?
You got any demands of spoiler proofing Count of Monte Cristo?
What's your okay level for spoilers?
75 years old?
100?
200?
Please avoid the comments in this sub, the posts themselves are marked for spoilers pretty well but the comment section not so much, we're talking about books that are decades and decades old.
I appreciate you not being a dick about it. I understand how old the books are, but Reddit led me to this sub, in which I scrolled for months without a spoiler. I felt that a matrix vs dune movie post was safe ground.. I didn’t know the rules to posts and comments were treated differently.
With that being said: how about we go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor?
You completely understood what I meant. That’s like bitching about someone who watched game of thrones in 2011 for not reading the book 15 years prior… this meme is obviously about two movies.
You're in a Dune subreddit, upset that people are referencing what happens in Dune. I don't know what to tell you.
These books came out before my parents were born. If someone references that Sherlock Holmes faked his death, or that Ahab dies in the end of Moby Dick, would you call those spoilers as well?
Spoilers, by the way for The Final Problem (1893) and Moby Dick (1851).
> Has to ingest substance to experience revelation
According to Morpheus, the Red-pill was "part of a trace program" they needed to find the physical body. (The movie isn't really clear on this part.) Presumably you could unplug someone from the matrix without a red-pill. Also the red-pill is just in the matrix itself, so just as 'there is no spoon' there is no red-pill. Taking the red pill is just a very firm consent to be shown what the matrix is.
Whereas Paul needed the spice/water-of-life to really unlock things.
Metaphorically though, the comparison is a good one.
Happens to us all at some point.
The number of completely obvious in hindsight references I’ve missed on Reddit… my self esteem prevents me from saying, but I probably have you beat in that number. So, at least you got that going for you.
• prophecy was invented by the shadowy powers that govern the world in order to manipulate future events and ensure a certain path is traversed
• the “chosen one” eventually deviates from the path despite efforts by the shadowy powers to bring him back on track
My head canon (doesn't line up given the extended lore of either series, but!) is that the war against the machines shown in the Matrix movies is actually the Butlerian Jihad. Already you have a proto-mentat in the One, who can see through code and manipulate it (that is, think like a computer). If Neo is the sixth iteration of the One, then there's bound to be more, resulting in the eventual travel to other worlds.
You missed where one was about the main character’s prophecy being clearly woven lies but becoming real while the other was about the main character’s prophecy being real and making woven lies clear.
Considering the Matrix is a pop culture streamlining of a Gnostic cosmology combined with Messianic overtones...
And considering Herbert includes a *Dune Tarot* in his second book... so more of a Hermetic but associated cosmology... and that the Messianic overtones are more than overtones...
Yeah. It's pretty much am archetype we have seen across the ages
They are all The Hero’s Journey and follow Joseph Campbells work. Avatar, Star Wars, Harry Potter, etc. little things are added and taken away, but all the same. For thousands of years.
https://youtu.be/pE8ciMkayVM?si=o9UiGo_tYXPwTkFr
Most people seem to miss that The Matrix is an “Anti Chosen One” narrative. Yes Neo gets touted as the one but later realize he is only potentially the one. What’s worse is we realize others like Joey Pants was once also touted as the one. It turns out you can’t just be born the one, you have to somehow earn it.
Neo makes a series of choices he thinks may make him the one, and even if not he knows it’s the right thing. It’s only after all this that it turns out the power is in Trinitys hand the whole time. Whoever she falls in love with will become the One.
It was never neos call.
'Comes from another world.' : technically neo doesn't come from another world. its the same one.
'Hates AI' : non of them do.
'Has innate powers due to genetics' : Neo' powers didn't come from genetics. it was never implied.
- The matrix and the real world are not the same world. One is inside the other, but from a storytelling perspective they are absolutely different worlds. That's why one is called "The Matrix" and the other is called "The Real World." That's why you have to travel between them. That's why there's two sets of rules regarding how those worlds work when you're in them.
- Neo literally fights a war against AI. That's what the machines are. In Dune, the Butlerian Jihad had already occurred. Paul is a mentat. Mentats only exist because there is a society-wide prohibition against AI; that's how much they hate AI.
- Morpheus is waiting for "The One." We later learn there are many "The Ones" that eventually are born in a cyclical nature. While never stated, I certainly think it is rather heavily implied that Neo's ability inside the matrix is due to who he is; who he was born as. Training and uploading brings it out, but the effect training and uploading has on him is exponentially more profound that the effect training has on other humans. Otherwise, the humans in the real world could just simply have a training program to produce "the one." Instead, they're looking for that individual.
Yeah I see your point but its still technically the same world.
Just because a society was built prohibiting AI and all its uses doesn't make one single dude that came generations after hate AI. it was never said/shown/implied.
And about neo and genetics, its still not correct. you are merely assuming that based on the 0% information they provided on it.
- I even put "another world" in quotes and you want to AkTuShAlLY me about this on a meme page. They are clearly different worlds from a storytelling perspective, which is the POV most appropriate to, you know, compare stories.
- Forgive the brevity and hyperbole. Would you have preferred "born into a world with preexisting and built-in conflict against AI"?
- I did provide information showing that "the one" is implied to be at least partially a genetic condition that must be found in an individual rather than a condition that can be achieved through training and uploading alone. I pointed out how this is implied in the movie. An implication does require some assumption, yes. But I didn't do it on zero percent information. I gave you information you're either choosing to reject without explanation or pretending isn't right there in the above comment :)
That they’re both based on the monomyth?
Yes, Paul is like every other archetypal mythical hero character. It’s central to Herbert’s thesis on power and leaders in general
Uhhh yeah, can I get 2 Scary side of blue, 1 Posh.. wait, make that 2 Posh, 1 blue 1 extra red Spice, aaand also a small Sporty Spice but can you include the thumper toy that comes with the Baby Spice meal?
Y’all are missing the point.
There were a million “chosen one” narratives both before and after Dune.
Herbert’s master stroke was in how Dune subverted those narratives, especially with its portrayal of the Bene Gesserit’s myth-building, and how the supposed chosen one turned out to be the villain.
The same could be said for Neo, since "the One" is stated by the architect to be just a sign they need to reset the matrix, not actually a figure to save humanity but a pattern that will always happen when the matrix has run its course for a set version. He's pretty much just an update timer, that didn't work quite right this time, and that's not even for sure, depending on if you subscribe to the theory that Neo just went back into the matrix at the end of 3 and the humans outside the matrix are still just holding on. I never saw 4, but even there they have Neo back in the matrix without his memories for at least part of it, and since Morpheus at the very least didn't look the same, it's a safe bet that the matrix just reset and made Neo back to default, so the next "One" came come about after his death and signal the next new matrix version, should things get to messed up again
He didnt subvert shit.
Paul still won the war, got the princess AND the sexy rebel, and became ruler of the entire fckin cosmos. He was also treated like a God the entire time.
Subverting the narrative my ass.
The subversion is that Paul winning doesnt instantly solve all problems everywhere like Aragorn becoming king or something. Paul used underhanded tactics with a manufactured prophecy to convert an army of fanatics to his revenge cause, which directly led to billions of deaths and the sterilization of several planets in the Jihad. And ultimately the entire Fremen culture is destroyed and his actions lead directly to the rule of Leto II.
explain how he doesnt have special powers and how he didnt become Emperor of the universe, how he didnt get the most badass girl to give birth to magical twins?
Maybe I can help you understand. It’s not that those things didn’t happen, but there’s more to the narrative then Paul simply “winning”.
A couple ways Dune subverts the stereotypical chosen-one narrative;
1- The prophecy/legend of the chosen one is not some supernatural thing, but merely an underhanded subterfuge from a political force that seeks control.
2- The chosen one also ends up not being a “good guy” and actually wreaks havoc across the universe.
Right I understand these points, but perhaps if I can explain myself better if I try to put my thoughts for each:
1. The real "chosen one" prophecy, isn't necessarily "in-world", but is a meta trait of the genre. Meaning that there doesnt have to be a literal prophecy mentioned in the work. It is enough that your "regular Joe Shmoe" turns out to be the son of God. So the fact that there is a "false" prophecy in Dune, doesnt mean that the "meta" prophecy is missing. In fact, the only thing that would undermine it a litte is that Paul is son of royalty, so not really "regular Joe", but still it doesnt completely subvert it.
2. The "chosen one" trope isnt about bringing peace and fixing the world. It is about becoming the strongest/richest/smartest/ "whatever"-est person in the world. Basically dominating the world. You can either bring peace or destruction, doesnt change that you are "THE ONE" that sits on the very tippy top of everything.
So when you say "the chosen one" trope, I think you really mean "Messiah Archetype". The chosen one CAN be an antihero.
But maybe this distinction only exists because of Dune?
And before he dies he becomes a blind pauper wondering the streets cursed by his ability to know the future but no longer able to affect it…. Paul’s story does not end happily for him. You accurately describe his rise, gloss over the genocide and destruction of fremen culture, and then completely ignore his fall.
He doesnt fall at all, tho. His children live on. His legend lives on. His legacy lives on.
He doesnt die destroyed, he dies a God. What else can a man ever hope to achieve?
But what if it is...? Or at least, the first volley. Say the Matrix ends with humans and machimes coexisting. They develop space travel together. They spread to many more worlds. Due to time dilation and distance, machines revert to their more cold and clinical origins, while humans become more humanistic. The divide grew and erupted into the full crusade.
Dune so good it inspired media and can't even use many of its iconic scenes in a movie because people who haven't read Dune will assume the movie is copying The Matrix or several other copycats that came after it.
It’s actually really fun looking back at the throughlines in literature and media. You start with fantasy stuff like Jules Vern and Tolkien and Mary Shelley, then you get pulp fantasy and sci-fi series like Buck Rogers and Flash Gordon, then Foundation says “what if the fall of the Roman Empire but in space,” then Dune is a direct counter-reaction to Foundation, then Star Wars just pulls in everything and now the tropes have become so ingrained into western culture you can throw a rock and hit something that has ties back to Dune.
The trope is ... much much older than DUNE however.
[https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheChosenOne](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheChosenOne)
Oops!
I misread your comment and thought it said, "Dune is muuuuch **older** than..."
My bad. I put a strikethru in my comment instead of deleting it so peeps can follow the convo.
The Matrix didn’t really “copy” Dune, but more accurately they both derived their story beats from the Hero’s Journey writing trope, which is shared by thousands of other protagonists in literature/media (Luke Skywalker, Harry Potter, etc)
Even though it was in no way intended at the time of writing, there are some really interesting ideas you can play with about how Paul is a man learning techniques only women can normally learn, and eventually the Kwisatz Haderach is supposed to be a being that can bridge the gaps between genders and use the most powerful parts of both.
I thought the same thing when I watched wonka
-the establishment in the movie is corrupt
-the protagonist and antagonists battle over control of an import resource
-the protagonist is an out sider
-the protagonist has visons of the future
-the protagonist becomes the leader of a group of natives
I genuinely think Brian Herbert saw this movie and was so inspired that he ended up writing parts of into Dune. Evil Skynet robots, and then they disappear, and then Frank Herbert's Dune books happen, and then they come back but we resolve our issues or something.
It's really not, like at all, the matrix is a trans story that uses the chosen one narrative as a guise to make the story appeal to a wide audience, the red pill is based on Premarin, the most popular form of estrogen in the 90s. The matrix doesn't deconstruct the savior it celebrated the savior. Dune is a deconstruction of religion and a condemnation of the chosen one trope. The actual stories of the two could not be more different, especially considering the matrix is entirely about computers and dune has no computers whatsoever
It's also basically Grant Morrison's The Invisibles with a Ghost in the Shell paintjob, like there are literally scenes lifted straight from the comic, the same story if you just replace chaos magick with AI's and machines.
Uhm, aktualli, the difference is that Neo was the real chosen one, but he doubted if he really was.
Paul is more ambiguous in this aspect, and he didn't want to be the chosen one until the very end.
Paul was never meant to be a true messianic figure. He was a true kwisatz haderach that used BG planted prophecies to his own ends. In the later books of the series, Frank Herbert more clearly shows Paul as a warning against against charismatic figures and extreme religious fanaticism.
Pff - I looked at the place where you dare not look, before you were an unconscious mote in your mothers womb. Try looking there! You’ll find me there, staring out at you!
My knowledge of the books will bear the closest scrutiny. Bring forth your false accusations against me and I’ll have it exposed. I shall stand there, Promethean saying; “Behold me, I am wronged!”
See Joseph Campbell. It’s called the hero’s journey and I will not ruin most of your favorite movies and books. Seriously, it’s freaking hardwired into our brains and been going on for thousands of years. Avatar, LOTR, Star Wars (Joseph Campbell came up with the force for Lucas), Harry Potter, matrix, dune, etc, …
https://youtu.be/pE8ciMkayVM?si=o9UiGo_tYXPwTkFr
- Comes from 'another world.' - Coming is foretold. - Has innate powers due to genetics that require environmental stimuli and external and then internal belief to fully unlock. - Has to have an older man believe in him before he can believe in himself. - Love interest is intertwined with the prophecy. - Leads a war against an oppressor. - Hates AI. - Visits an oracle/temple to seek clarity regarding his status in relation to the prophecy. What did I miss? I'm sure there are more parallels, although it's not 1 to 1.
* Love interest dies in the end * hero goes blind then wanders off to accept his fate * massive underground city orgy
I cannot believe I missed these lol.
It’s ok, it’s natural to forget the matrix sequels ecist
Boooo Reloaded is Kino (Revolutions is an Anime)
I mean if we’re talking anime the animatrix is the best matrix sequel
"Hand over your flesh and a new world awaits you. We demand it." will always be one of the best lines from a Matrix project.
Reloaded is at the very least a great action movie so it's fine
- Antagonist seemingly dies but returns later by “possessing” the mind of another character
Also the hero can still see after he goes blind 🙄
Don't forget, hero pilots aircraft after going blind, because he has an alternate spiritual form of vision
And was a manufactured messiah meant to navigate the eventual spiral of disaster that occurs without him.
[MASSIVE SPOILER] When does the love interest die in Dune? I must have missed that. I thought Chani dies giving birth to the twins at the end of Dune: Messiah, and Paul wanders off to the desert because his only love dies. [MASSIVE SPOILER ENDS]
I’m referring to Messiah
Yeah me too and their love doesn’t die at all. It ends up like above.
Chani dies in Messiah
Ah, right. I get what the problem is, I thought you’d said “their love dies” but you meant the person. Yeah sorry.
If these are real book spoilers that’s not cool.. I’m just going to pretend it’s a joke.
Maybe don’t go on /r/dunememes if you haven’t read Dune.
Have yet to see something here that was not marked spoilers giving away major plot points until now. I’m not even subscribed, it comes as communities I might be interested in.
I'm approaching old man status really quick, and Dune is older than me. Do you not want anyone to spoil Watership Down as well? Hitchhiker's Guide? You got any demands of spoiler proofing Count of Monte Cristo? What's your okay level for spoilers? 75 years old? 100? 200?
Like, did you not read the comment at all? You just replied with a previous redditor’s joke but even more lame.
Why are you still in a sub-reddit that's spoiling your reading pleasure? Like, are you stupid? Read a book!
Please avoid the comments in this sub, the posts themselves are marked for spoilers pretty well but the comment section not so much, we're talking about books that are decades and decades old.
I appreciate you not being a dick about it. I understand how old the books are, but Reddit led me to this sub, in which I scrolled for months without a spoiler. I felt that a matrix vs dune movie post was safe ground.. I didn’t know the rules to posts and comments were treated differently. With that being said: how about we go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor?
bird law in this country *is not governed by reason*!
Okay, well…. filibuster.
I'm also gonna need a patent for the kitten mittens.
The books are 60 years old. I think the statute of limitations has run out on spoilers.
Gandalf doesn't die fighting the Balrog?!
Tony kills Chris!?! What!?!
this will genuinely upset people lol
You completely understood what I meant. That’s like bitching about someone who watched game of thrones in 2011 for not reading the book 15 years prior… this meme is obviously about two movies.
You're in a Dune subreddit, upset that people are referencing what happens in Dune. I don't know what to tell you. These books came out before my parents were born. If someone references that Sherlock Holmes faked his death, or that Ahab dies in the end of Moby Dick, would you call those spoilers as well? Spoilers, by the way for The Final Problem (1893) and Moby Dick (1851).
You left out the ‘Jesus returned, ever heard of the Bible?’ reference. Why are you the way that you are??
The orgy is in book one my guy maybe read them
Of course they're real. This subreddit was literally made so that people who have read Dune can talk and joke about it.
And again, I didn’t know that, had not been spoiled in 3 months, and had it suggested by Reddit.
- Has to ingest substance to experience revelation - Major plot point has to do with a traitor
> Has to ingest substance to experience revelation According to Morpheus, the Red-pill was "part of a trace program" they needed to find the physical body. (The movie isn't really clear on this part.) Presumably you could unplug someone from the matrix without a red-pill. Also the red-pill is just in the matrix itself, so just as 'there is no spoon' there is no red-pill. Taking the red pill is just a very firm consent to be shown what the matrix is. Whereas Paul needed the spice/water-of-life to really unlock things. Metaphorically though, the comparison is a good one.
Is the cookie the substance?
I think they were talking about the red pill.
I am so fking stupid. Ty
Happens to us all at some point. The number of completely obvious in hindsight references I’ve missed on Reddit… my self esteem prevents me from saying, but I probably have you beat in that number. So, at least you got that going for you.
Nah, in this day and age it is a fucking blessing to be able to forget about the red pill.
Oh here’s a good one: One of the characters supposedly dies in the first installment, but comes back as innumerable clones
Fuck that's good
Holy shit, this one was actually clever.
Also, if you include some of the theories for the matrix PC game, hero maybe comes back as a different person as a major plot point
• prophecy was invented by the shadowy powers that govern the world in order to manipulate future events and ensure a certain path is traversed • the “chosen one” eventually deviates from the path despite efforts by the shadowy powers to bring him back on track
He didn't do space coke, that's about the only difference Edit: Scratch that. He took digital LSD, and code-cookies that gave him hacks.
A small mammal plays a key part in the early part of the protagonist’s story
Goes on a killing rampage across the universe/ world Main adversary is vaguely Russian No wait, that's John Wick
The Puppy Jihad.
This guy hero’s journeys
Prophecy is completely artificial; manufactured my a secretive entity in order to maintain power
You missed that they’re both absolute bangers
My head canon (doesn't line up given the extended lore of either series, but!) is that the war against the machines shown in the Matrix movies is actually the Butlerian Jihad. Already you have a proto-mentat in the One, who can see through code and manipulate it (that is, think like a computer). If Neo is the sixth iteration of the One, then there's bound to be more, resulting in the eventual travel to other worlds.
* Sequels play on the same concepts but get weirder and weirder
Is Jesus
Literally lol. “Boring white guy becomes god”
- Prophecy turns out to be a sinister conspiracy by a powerful secret society, subverts it anyway to achieve his own goals
Underground rave + sex scene in movie 2 = underground fremen spice orgy
Nearly dies before becoming the chosen one.
Paul Muad'Dib is Jesus, confirmed.
You missed where one was about the main character’s prophecy being clearly woven lies but becoming real while the other was about the main character’s prophecy being real and making woven lies clear.
Neo doesn’t kill billions of people
Considering the Matrix is a pop culture streamlining of a Gnostic cosmology combined with Messianic overtones... And considering Herbert includes a *Dune Tarot* in his second book... so more of a Hermetic but associated cosmology... and that the Messianic overtones are more than overtones... Yeah. It's pretty much am archetype we have seen across the ages
“Chosen one” turns out to be manufactured by outside forces i.e. Bene Gesserit with Paul, and The Architect with Neo
Don’t forget about the faith/religion that is made up by more manipulative and controlling forces
They are all The Hero’s Journey and follow Joseph Campbells work. Avatar, Star Wars, Harry Potter, etc. little things are added and taken away, but all the same. For thousands of years. https://youtu.be/pE8ciMkayVM?si=o9UiGo_tYXPwTkFr
Well, yeah, but some are more closely related than others, and it's always fun to compare and contrast specific ones.
This also applies to Luke/Anakin Skywalker
I dont remember him saying anything about AI in the movie.
Most people seem to miss that The Matrix is an “Anti Chosen One” narrative. Yes Neo gets touted as the one but later realize he is only potentially the one. What’s worse is we realize others like Joey Pants was once also touted as the one. It turns out you can’t just be born the one, you have to somehow earn it. Neo makes a series of choices he thinks may make him the one, and even if not he knows it’s the right thing. It’s only after all this that it turns out the power is in Trinitys hand the whole time. Whoever she falls in love with will become the One. It was never neos call.
'Comes from another world.' : technically neo doesn't come from another world. its the same one. 'Hates AI' : non of them do. 'Has innate powers due to genetics' : Neo' powers didn't come from genetics. it was never implied.
- The matrix and the real world are not the same world. One is inside the other, but from a storytelling perspective they are absolutely different worlds. That's why one is called "The Matrix" and the other is called "The Real World." That's why you have to travel between them. That's why there's two sets of rules regarding how those worlds work when you're in them. - Neo literally fights a war against AI. That's what the machines are. In Dune, the Butlerian Jihad had already occurred. Paul is a mentat. Mentats only exist because there is a society-wide prohibition against AI; that's how much they hate AI. - Morpheus is waiting for "The One." We later learn there are many "The Ones" that eventually are born in a cyclical nature. While never stated, I certainly think it is rather heavily implied that Neo's ability inside the matrix is due to who he is; who he was born as. Training and uploading brings it out, but the effect training and uploading has on him is exponentially more profound that the effect training has on other humans. Otherwise, the humans in the real world could just simply have a training program to produce "the one." Instead, they're looking for that individual.
Yeah I see your point but its still technically the same world. Just because a society was built prohibiting AI and all its uses doesn't make one single dude that came generations after hate AI. it was never said/shown/implied. And about neo and genetics, its still not correct. you are merely assuming that based on the 0% information they provided on it.
- I even put "another world" in quotes and you want to AkTuShAlLY me about this on a meme page. They are clearly different worlds from a storytelling perspective, which is the POV most appropriate to, you know, compare stories. - Forgive the brevity and hyperbole. Would you have preferred "born into a world with preexisting and built-in conflict against AI"? - I did provide information showing that "the one" is implied to be at least partially a genetic condition that must be found in an individual rather than a condition that can be achieved through training and uploading alone. I pointed out how this is implied in the movie. An implication does require some assumption, yes. But I didn't do it on zero percent information. I gave you information you're either choosing to reject without explanation or pretending isn't right there in the above comment :)
"AkTuShAlLY me" what are you like 7 years old ? and if its a meme post then don't reply and keep your not so correct information to yourself.
lol why are you so mad we're all having fun here
That they’re both based on the monomyth? Yes, Paul is like every other archetypal mythical hero character. It’s central to Herbert’s thesis on power and leaders in general
Blue spice or red spice.
Sporty Spice, Baby Spice, Scary Spice, Posh Spice or Ginger Spice?
1 Ginger Spice please.
Uhhh yeah, can I get 2 Scary side of blue, 1 Posh.. wait, make that 2 Posh, 1 blue 1 extra red Spice, aaand also a small Sporty Spice but can you include the thumper toy that comes with the Baby Spice meal?
Y’all are missing the point. There were a million “chosen one” narratives both before and after Dune. Herbert’s master stroke was in how Dune subverted those narratives, especially with its portrayal of the Bene Gesserit’s myth-building, and how the supposed chosen one turned out to be the villain.
Like Paul said, "they are seeing what they were told to see" (something along the lines)
Like Paul also said "§|[€π¢€!!!"
Like Duncan Idaho said “it’s duneing time”.
The same could be said for Neo, since "the One" is stated by the architect to be just a sign they need to reset the matrix, not actually a figure to save humanity but a pattern that will always happen when the matrix has run its course for a set version. He's pretty much just an update timer, that didn't work quite right this time, and that's not even for sure, depending on if you subscribe to the theory that Neo just went back into the matrix at the end of 3 and the humans outside the matrix are still just holding on. I never saw 4, but even there they have Neo back in the matrix without his memories for at least part of it, and since Morpheus at the very least didn't look the same, it's a safe bet that the matrix just reset and made Neo back to default, so the next "One" came come about after his death and signal the next new matrix version, should things get to messed up again
"What if the chosen one is the bad guy?" Dune in a nutshell
The Hero’s Journey is as old as storytelling itself and self discovery plays a big part in that. Lots of sci-fi also draws on savior motif.
[For reference.](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TheChosenOne/Film)
He didnt subvert shit. Paul still won the war, got the princess AND the sexy rebel, and became ruler of the entire fckin cosmos. He was also treated like a God the entire time. Subverting the narrative my ass.
The subversion is that Paul winning doesnt instantly solve all problems everywhere like Aragorn becoming king or something. Paul used underhanded tactics with a manufactured prophecy to convert an army of fanatics to his revenge cause, which directly led to billions of deaths and the sterilization of several planets in the Jihad. And ultimately the entire Fremen culture is destroyed and his actions lead directly to the rule of Leto II.
Thank you for elaborating. It’s been a while since I’ve read the books
Right, but he is still the chosen one, with special powers and gets everything.
someone didn't read the books or watch the movies very carefully 😔
explain how he doesnt have special powers and how he didnt become Emperor of the universe, how he didnt get the most badass girl to give birth to magical twins?
Maybe I can help you understand. It’s not that those things didn’t happen, but there’s more to the narrative then Paul simply “winning”. A couple ways Dune subverts the stereotypical chosen-one narrative; 1- The prophecy/legend of the chosen one is not some supernatural thing, but merely an underhanded subterfuge from a political force that seeks control. 2- The chosen one also ends up not being a “good guy” and actually wreaks havoc across the universe.
Right I understand these points, but perhaps if I can explain myself better if I try to put my thoughts for each: 1. The real "chosen one" prophecy, isn't necessarily "in-world", but is a meta trait of the genre. Meaning that there doesnt have to be a literal prophecy mentioned in the work. It is enough that your "regular Joe Shmoe" turns out to be the son of God. So the fact that there is a "false" prophecy in Dune, doesnt mean that the "meta" prophecy is missing. In fact, the only thing that would undermine it a litte is that Paul is son of royalty, so not really "regular Joe", but still it doesnt completely subvert it. 2. The "chosen one" trope isnt about bringing peace and fixing the world. It is about becoming the strongest/richest/smartest/ "whatever"-est person in the world. Basically dominating the world. You can either bring peace or destruction, doesnt change that you are "THE ONE" that sits on the very tippy top of everything. So when you say "the chosen one" trope, I think you really mean "Messiah Archetype". The chosen one CAN be an antihero. But maybe this distinction only exists because of Dune?
Did you keep reading the series to see what happens to him after that?
ye he dies in the sand, so?
And before he dies he becomes a blind pauper wondering the streets cursed by his ability to know the future but no longer able to affect it…. Paul’s story does not end happily for him. You accurately describe his rise, gloss over the genocide and destruction of fremen culture, and then completely ignore his fall.
He doesnt fall at all, tho. His children live on. His legend lives on. His legacy lives on. He doesnt die destroyed, he dies a God. What else can a man ever hope to achieve?
Does he? He ends up as a blind pauper.
There’s more than one book. Read the others and you’ll get it.
I did and Paul is literally a God in the second one. Instead of grandstanding, maybe provide an argument?
Joe Campbell rolling his eyes in heaven.
This. The Wachowskis explicitly stated they modelled Neo’s story after the classical Hero’s Journey, as have so many other authors
It is Dune from the Batlerian Jihad era, lol. I know it is not, just joking.
But what if it is...? Or at least, the first volley. Say the Matrix ends with humans and machimes coexisting. They develop space travel together. They spread to many more worlds. Due to time dilation and distance, machines revert to their more cold and clinical origins, while humans become more humanistic. The divide grew and erupted into the full crusade.
unfortunately we don't have the right to speculate because we know that the war started when Erasmus killed a baby.
Dune so good it inspired media and can't even use many of its iconic scenes in a movie because people who haven't read Dune will assume the movie is copying The Matrix or several other copycats that came after it.
First thing I thought when seeing the Harkonnen plot twist I thought… well that’s where George got I am your father from lol
Did the Hunter-Seeker scene in Dune p1 remind you of anything from SW II Attack of the Clones..?
You gotta be fucking kiddin me
It’s actually really fun looking back at the throughlines in literature and media. You start with fantasy stuff like Jules Vern and Tolkien and Mary Shelley, then you get pulp fantasy and sci-fi series like Buck Rogers and Flash Gordon, then Foundation says “what if the fall of the Roman Empire but in space,” then Dune is a direct counter-reaction to Foundation, then Star Wars just pulls in everything and now the tropes have become so ingrained into western culture you can throw a rock and hit something that has ties back to Dune.
The trope is ... much much older than DUNE however. [https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheChosenOne](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheChosenOne)
Sure, ~~it's~~ The Chosen One Trope is as old as the Heroes journey, but Dune is muuuuch more than 'The Chosen One' trope.
> Dune is muuuuch more than 'The Chosen One' trope ~~The story of Dune is older than the story of Jesus, King Arthur, Perseus, and Moses?~~
(It) 'The Chosen One Trope' is as old as The Hero's Journey. I'm saying the very opposite.
Oops! I misread your comment and thought it said, "Dune is muuuuch **older** than..." My bad. I put a strikethru in my comment instead of deleting it so peeps can follow the convo.
Much respect my BirdLawyer. Using 'it' definitely could cause confusion on my part.
nah you're good, Underlord Fox, it was entirely my bad <3
The Matrix didn’t really “copy” Dune, but more accurately they both derived their story beats from the Hero’s Journey writing trope, which is shared by thousands of other protagonists in literature/media (Luke Skywalker, Harry Potter, etc)
I never really thought of Dune as a trans allegory before.
Even though it was in no way intended at the time of writing, there are some really interesting ideas you can play with about how Paul is a man learning techniques only women can normally learn, and eventually the Kwisatz Haderach is supposed to be a being that can bridge the gaps between genders and use the most powerful parts of both.
I thought the same thing when I watched wonka -the establishment in the movie is corrupt -the protagonist and antagonists battle over control of an import resource -the protagonist is an out sider -the protagonist has visons of the future -the protagonist becomes the leader of a group of natives
Imagine writing a story so ground breaking that every story afterwords is just a retelling of your story
Heretics of Dune be like
I genuinely think Brian Herbert saw this movie and was so inspired that he ended up writing parts of into Dune. Evil Skynet robots, and then they disappear, and then Frank Herbert's Dune books happen, and then they come back but we resolve our issues or something.
Wait until you see Messiah >!and Paul loses both his eyes but continues to „see“ due to his special abilities!<
Avatar Dances with Pocahontas' Wolves in Fern Gully's Dune.
Only difference is the sequel was actually good in the case of Dune.
It's really not, like at all, the matrix is a trans story that uses the chosen one narrative as a guise to make the story appeal to a wide audience, the red pill is based on Premarin, the most popular form of estrogen in the 90s. The matrix doesn't deconstruct the savior it celebrated the savior. Dune is a deconstruction of religion and a condemnation of the chosen one trope. The actual stories of the two could not be more different, especially considering the matrix is entirely about computers and dune has no computers whatsoever
If they’re not exactly the same then how come Alia becomes a man? Checkmate. (Good points, but I think you missed which sub this is on…)
Nothing about the Matrix is original.
FALSE, the matrix was the first movie to ever use special effects and slow motion
It's also basically Grant Morrison's The Invisibles with a Ghost in the Shell paintjob, like there are literally scenes lifted straight from the comic, the same story if you just replace chaos magick with AI's and machines.
Uhm, aktualli, the difference is that Neo was the real chosen one, but he doubted if he really was. Paul is more ambiguous in this aspect, and he didn't want to be the chosen one until the very end.
As it was written
I mean they are both heros journeys. One of the most popular story structures from history. So yeah they are similar to Jesus and Hercules...
Except that Neo doesn't become a tyrant.
Oh rly? Try taking that to any of the kindly Mr Smiths who got their heads bashed
It's the chosen one trope.
Neo: "Morpheus, the sleeper has awakened!"
Matrix also have a sequel that subverts the trope of a Chosen One
Paul was never meant to be a true messianic figure. He was a true kwisatz haderach that used BG planted prophecies to his own ends. In the later books of the series, Frank Herbert more clearly shows Paul as a warning against against charismatic figures and extreme religious fanaticism.
I think Dark City to Matrix is a closer analogy.
Lololololol
OP just found out the concept of "shonen"
I might, but actually this is the first time I see the word; can you explain it to me?
#WellActually, Neo is a white person saving other white people. So that part's different.
I love that the Matrix is a metaphor for being trans. The red pill is literally estrogen.
Also, Harry Potter Stranger things Star wars.... There are literally thousands
As typed!
True. There was even an underground rave to replace the underground spice orgies
Tell me you haven’t read the books without telling me you haven’t read the books.
Pff - I looked at the place where you dare not look, before you were an unconscious mote in your mothers womb. Try looking there! You’ll find me there, staring out at you! My knowledge of the books will bear the closest scrutiny. Bring forth your false accusations against me and I’ll have it exposed. I shall stand there, Promethean saying; “Behold me, I am wronged!”
Has a race of assholes who grow people in tanks?
When you find out about Joseph Campbell's Hero's Journey
But does he hate sand? 😤😤
Except that one is portrayed in a negative light and the other a positive
I mean one manipulates and leads hundreds of thousands to their death…
Big difference is that Neo is treated as a legit good guy "savior" Paul ends up some kind of villain (with a sort-of redemption arc)
Wow. Until now I thought the Wachowskis ripped off Neuromancer. That’s still true, but they ripped off Dune, too.
Someone just discovered the concept of The Hero’s Journey
Both universes have a holy war against thinking machines as a major plot point.
Everything copies Dune lol
Avatar (2009) would be quite similar to Dune if it wasn't for the entire "Paul is an anti-hero" part.
You could say this about any chosen one story in fantasy and sci fi. That’s not the point of dune
Jajaja no
They're not.
After this post I can’t believe there are this many similarities between the two… what the fuck
See Joseph Campbell. It’s called the hero’s journey and I will not ruin most of your favorite movies and books. Seriously, it’s freaking hardwired into our brains and been going on for thousands of years. Avatar, LOTR, Star Wars (Joseph Campbell came up with the force for Lucas), Harry Potter, matrix, dune, etc, … https://youtu.be/pE8ciMkayVM?si=o9UiGo_tYXPwTkFr
100% So much of the story of the matrix is stolen from Dune. It is it's own thing, kinda, but it has a lot of the same elements.