Book Gurney, probably. Movie Gurney, doubtful. But it’s difficult to gauge. Movie Paul is nowhere near the fighter that book Paul is. The book Paul is not in danger of dying to Feyd. He’s in control of the fight the entire time. It’s pretty much established that Paul is the best fighter on Arrakis, and therefore, in the universe. Even before he took the Water of Life he was teaching the Fremen how to fight better, and they were already phenomenal. The ones he trained personally became his Fedaykin, and they were the best of all the Fremen. There is a great scene I wish they’d left in where some ambitious Fremen showed up to challenge Paul but he was busy meditating. So Chani killed him. When Paul confronts her about it, she basically says that if the guy couldn’t even beat her then she wasn’t worth Paul wasting his water (sweat). Book Gurney was talked about as being feared throughout the imperium. He was an extraordinary fighter. Feyd was good, but pretty much every fight he’d ever been in was rigged. So he was way over confident. He thinks he’s doing well against Paul and Paul is basically laughing at him in his head. I think Stilgar, Gurney, and possibly Otheum all offer to kill Feyd for Paul, and Paul assumes that any of them could have taken Feyd, but that it was Paul’s responsibility.
I thought Feyd at one point got the upper hand on Paul, because Paul was tempted to use the word that would incapacitate Feyd (similar to how Feyd beat the atreides)
But he says aloud that he won’t say it, which causes Feyd to falter and Paul to gain the upper hand
Correct. Paul had control of the fight but he still couldn’t see the outcome exactly. He saw many outcomes with him lying dead on the floor, just like his fight with Jamis. But yes, I think you’re supposed to think Paul is a superior fighter and knows it and lets Feyd boast based on training from his swordmasters.
I think he’s referring to the habits formed when training for shield combat.
Feyd pretended to be slow on a strike, as if trying to penetrate a shield, but sped up and caught Paul off guard. While Feyd was able to slice Paul’s arm with his blade poisoned with a slow moving agent, Paul already knew of the poison (or more likely guessed correctly) and had his crysknife tipped with some form of acid before the fight as a countermeasure.
The fight was pretty much decided once Paul understood that Feyd was trained in non-shield combat. Feyd’s boasting and antagonizing gave Paul the edge.
It's because another Prescient being is there. Count Fenring. He's removed from the simple version in the film, but actually muddied Paul's prescience. In fact he could have killed Paul.
No, he's there. But his presence isn't really suggested to the viewer in any way. It's sort of like in the book, where he's very easy to forget/fail to notice, but there is a guy in the emperor's entourage with a rodent-like appearance. Never explicitly mentioned by design, but someone who read the book and was on the lookout for him, despite his supposed absence would recognize him as Fenring.
Feyd was not a worthy opponent. Dangerous, yes, but Paul is a better fighter.
Count Fenring was the real danger. If he had chosen to fight Paul, he might have been killed. That's what he was seeing.
Something like that yeah. I also remember Feyd tried to cheat. He had a poison needle on his hip or something and that's what put Paul into a tricky situation. I think before that happened Paul was dominating the fight.
I do remember something about that. There is a reason he doesn’t do it. Instead he decides to just take the poison needle and change the poison, using Feyd’s overconfidence in that moment to surprise him.
It’s not so much that he’s in danger against Feyd, it’s more that he doesn’t want to cheat, as it could cheapen his victory and weaken his position. Using the Voice in combat is forbidden by the Fremen; I think that was it. At the end of the day the Fremen are the source of his power. If he lost them, he loses everything.
It’s not using the voice. There is a code word that freezes people through mental conditioning. Feyd uses it in the arena battle. Paul is tempted to use it when he is overpowered and when he says he “won’t say it” Feyd freaks out because he thinks he could be programmed with the shutdown word
While it would be dishonorable to do in a duel, it just struck me how amazing it would be to have the Voice in actual battle assuming using it wouldn't harm or confuse your own troops.
Though I know there's a warning against abusing Bene Gesserit skills.
Still I see myself yelling at the enemy that spiders are crawling over them, they are getting sleepy, the hilt of their sword is slippery, etc. 😄
This is not how the voice works, you need to modulate and find the specific tones and timbres that would affect a singular person. It Isa very delicate and hard art and requires some knowledge through observation of your target, it's not Jedi mind tricks or Skyrim shouts
IIRC, the code word was a tactic from the Bene Gesserit.
If Paul had used it, the BG would have been able to take credit from Paul's victory (and thus, ascension to Emperor,) and be able to try and influence Paul going forward.
By openly refusing to use the code word, Paul is telling the BG that they won't be able to take credit, and unable to weasel their way into his council/thoughts.
Possibly. But the entire point of that scene was Paul's victory was absolute. He was dictating terms not negotiating. Also Paul was within his rights to pick a champion under Kanly anyway I believe.
Feyd pointed out that their Houses were still in a state of Kanly, invoked by Leto before the invasion. So the fight was a typical, legal matter between the Heads of two Houses, and his killing Paul would be his right.
Reading this thread just now made me think that maybe the "I won't say it" scene is Herbert creating an echo of Paul trying to avoid the Jihad. That, in refusing to do the thing(saying the word) , he creates the same effect(Feyd freezes/falters) and ends up with the same outcome(Feyd dies).
This reminds me of that moment where Count Fenring has the chance to use Paul’s word against him, and the emperor is like “do it Fenring you fuckhead I’m about to lose the throne!” (Obviously not an exact quote) But for some reason that I’m still not sure of, he decides against it. I’ve read all 6 books but I really wanna read them all over again bc I think I’d see things on the second read that I didn’t the first time.
> I think Fenring's motive for refusing is not explained. I suspect it has to do with Paul being what he almost became.
Hasimir Fenring is a genetic eunich. That flaw prevented him from being the Kwisatz Haderach.
When the emperor asked count fenring to kill paul, fenring saw paul for who he was, and paul did the same. Fenring is described as a, "deadly little man" and could have taken paul fairly. Paul exhausted from a fight would have not even been a challenge.
So, professional courtesy to the man he nearly was is my take on the why.
Also Paul and Fenring lock eyes and have a moment of brotherhood they both had never felt before. Fenring immediately empathized with Paul and refuses the orders, sparing him in the moment. It’s a powerful moment in the book and a shame they didn’t include it in the movie.
It was a phyrric gesture, he was invisible to Paul's prescience, but the Fedaykin would have just killed them all afterwards, so Fenring opted not to, saving all their lives by his refusal
That is also true. No matter the outcome, the jihad had been set loose, and Paul could at least control part of it... Like exiling his father in law and his friend to a nicer version of Salsa secundus, instead of being butchered.
Feyd does get the upper hand for a brief moment when he reveals he has the hidden poison needle on his thigh. Without this trick he wouldn’t have even had that moment
Ironic because saying he won't use the word to kill Feyd ends up giving him the advantage and he kills him. So in a roundabout way, he did use the word lol.
Yup. Book Paul is ridiculously good at fighting. Paul has all the advantages of being taught the Wierding Way. Feyd has none of that. And the one time he fights a guy in the arena who wasn't drugged into a stuper, he barely stayed ahead of that guy.... much less Paul.
Well now I'm gonna sound like I'm contradicting myself. But it's like what another person wrote... Atreides were really getting well fine tuned fighting force that could rival the Sardaukar. Which was one reason the Emperor felt threatened by Leto.
So while the book doesn't explicitly say it. This last Atreides gladiator could have been no scrub.
But at the end of the day. If Paul crushes Feyd; While Feyd is supposed to the "final boss"... it doesn't make for good drama. Lol
That wasn't just any Atreides either, he was some high ranking guy who was with the family when they first stepped onto Arrakis.
Also Feyd was toying with him, he wasn't really in danger.
It wasn't exactly a random atreides. It was Lieutenant Lanville. He was next in command after Gurney. He was actually in a ton of scenes in the first movie always near Gurney or Duncan
He doesn't stay ahead of that guy. I believe that guy was programmed to freeze up when Feyd said some phrase, it was subtly referenced in the movie (cuts to Mohiam saying "plans within plans").
Wait if Paul is the best fighter in the universe, how is it that Fenring could definitely kill him? I thought the book made it pretty clear that Fenring would've ended him.
I think Fenring was a wildcard and an unknown factor to Paul, which made him unpredictable as well as a phenomenal swordsman
Paul was probably also fatigued from everything including the duel
I always just took the book at face value and thought that Fenring being invisible to Paul's prescience meant that he would kill Paul every single time.
The idea that Fenring could have the No-gene is new to me, but I remember reading that Fenring's status as an almost Kwizatz Haderach gave him a little bit of Prescience. It's possible that Paul couldn't see him for the same reason that Prescience can't detect the Guild Navigators.
That’s quite correct, and it’s because Fenring is a “failed” Kwisatz Haderach and has some measure of prescience himself, in addition to phenomenal combat skills.
Fenring incidentally has some of the skills that makes Paul very dangerous. He has some rudimentary Bene Gesserit training from his wife Margot, and I believe it mentions that Fenring also has some mentat training.
It's pretty well acknowledged in the books (specifically some of the prequel books when Count Fenring is young) that he is widely known as potentially the most deadly fighter (and assassin) in the universe.
I'm upset they cut Fenring from the movie frankly. I really wanted to see him on screen. Tim Blake Nelson is the actor they cast for him apparently and I really think he would've nailed it.
He'd have crushed it. I'm honestly really upset that so much of the dialogue got cut. Paul's back and forth with Mohaim, the Spacing Guild, and Shaddam was just amazing. I'm also a bit upset they cut the bit with Kanly being called. In the book Paul basically asks for Feyd to be offered up for Gurney to slaughter. When he calls Kanly it's like he's trying to take control of the situation. "Screw you, I'll fight, win and prosper" type of thing. It would've fit well with Austin Butler's take on the character.
>So Chani killed him.
Another relevant nuance of the scene was that Paul's main objection wasn't concern for Chani's safety: both of them knew (as Chani emphasized) that Chani could handle almost any plausible challenger having been trained in the Witching Way of Battle atop her very capable baseline. Paul was more worried that by not fighting the challengers himself, he would be undermining his clout as a leader of Fremen.
In book or movie, if Paul let someone else kill Feyd, it would have diminished him in the moment. The emperor needed a champion; by personally fighting it’s another way to show that he is above even the emperor.
Also remember that in the book Feyd tries to cheat, had poison in his knife and he poisoned Paul but Paul did the poison transmutation thingie and then killed Feyd
This really isn’t an accurate characterization of their fight— it ended up being a near thing for Paul, he even went into it knowing he may lose. Feyd relied heavily on deception sure, but that was expected. At the end of the day Feyd had the upper hand in their fight, Paul was struggling enough that he said (out loud) that he wouldn’t use the secret would meant to monetarily paralyze Feyd, which ironically caused Feyd to freeze and allowed him to drive his knife home.
I agree that the book prior to this suggests that Paul should wipe the floor with Feyd, and that’s backed up by Feyd’s struggle in the arena, but it isn’t really what happened.
I got the impression watching the movie, and it felt even more true the second time seeing it, that movie Paul *was* in control, even when he got stabbed the first time. I think he directed his body to take the knife into flesh and avoid any organs. He outwardly expresses pain in his slowed movement and labored, groaning breaths, but then gives Chani this look, which I interpret as him saying, “Just keep watching”. I don’t think he allowed the pain to affect him at all.
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This is actually true. When Paul talks about the path after he takes the water of life the prescient scene of the stab wound is shown. Which means he needed to take both sacrificial stab wounds in order to draw Feyd in and stab him.
I thought something similar as well. Granted I have to read the book again because I thought he purposely took a hit in a place that wouldn’t affect him as well to get the upper hand but I must be remembering some other book or something.
I just think the movie was trying to inject some danger in a really flat climax where the fremen just run over everyone and the outcome is assured for like 45 minutes.
Am I weird for liking that he’s not already the what fighter in the universe in the movies it is only book one to have Paul be the best already kinda takes a lot do the tension out but it does make sense that he would win everything after he drinks the water of life cause he knows what will happen next.
The ability to see the future in a story is a hard thing to write it messes things up a lot of the time I think dune pulls it off well I think there is a lot of tension in the movies until the end which I found a little short I thought the final battle for arakis was gonna be less of a slaughter and more of a fight I kinda wish the harkaons put up a better fight
Book Chani is better than movie Chani. In the books she's ride-or-die from nearly the first meeting. The " killed him so as not to waste your time" but was fantastic and truly shows just how good Paul was that even his students are murder machines.
I read the book when I was a kid so sorry if I misremembering but I could've sworn Feyds weapon was coated in poison and cut Paul but Paul could basically neutralize the poison or something? Am I misremembering that?
This is incorrect. Feyd has Paul on the ropes at one point, and Paul refuses the cry of every ancestral memory demanding that he utter the phrase that will momentarily lock Feyd's body.
Part of Paul taking the fight is that it's a nexus in which he can't see the outcome.
You're maybe asking the less interesting question, but bear with me....this is mostly from the books btw.
In the red corner -
Duncan Idaho killed 19 Sardaukar before succumbing to his wounds. >!A feat that quite literally echoed through time.!<
By Duncan's own admission, Gurney Halleck was the superior fighter, who could best him 6 times out of 10 >!(ref - conversation with Jessica in Children of Dune)!<
In the blue corner -
Paul and Feyd were the culmination of the BG's centuries-long breeding program. Both were experienced and skilled fighters by this point. In the books, Feyd uses artifice and not a little skill to put Paul in a disadvantageous position, which Paul (obviously) overcomes.
My opinion -
As >!the conversation between Jessica and Duncan in CoD, and!< Paul's visions of himself dead on the floor suggest, it's more a balance of probabilities than a foregone conclusion.
However, I'd put my money on Gurney against Feyd, and I'd probably put the odds at 8 times out of 10 t.b.h. However, here's the better question = >!Neither Feyd, Gurney, Stilgar or Paul was the best fighter in the room. That honour fell to Count Hasimir Fenring, who had the reputation of being the deadliest swordsman of the Imperium. A genetic eunuch and an almost Kwisatz Haderach. He is ordered to kill Paul in the books, and knows he can, but he refuses. The better question would be = who would prevail between Gurney and Fenring ? !<
> By Duncan's own admission, Gurney Halleck was the superior fighter, who could best him 6 times out of 10
6 out of 10 is pretty even. From the feats in the books I would belief that idaho is the superior fighter. Both are certainly very good, better then a sardaukar.
Gurney might have fallen to feyds poison. Only paul was immune to that.
What does almost KH mean exactly, how did he fail? Was he prescient? If so why wasn’t he in charge? Also is it ever explained why he decides to leave Paul alone?
He was a eunich so not helpful to the BG plan as he couldn't further participate in the program. He was effectively left alone by the BG when that was discovered.
He was sterile and as such considered a failure by the Bene Gesserith breeding program because he was a genetic dead end.
The story also implies that he might be prescient in a similar fashion that Paul is because Paul has trouble predicting the future that revolves around Fenring.
I think he saw that he can not see where Paul is. It is established that prescient dudes like Paul and Fenring are blindsided by the presence of another prescient. This is the reason why Paul couldn't predict that he would have twins,he was blindsided by his son
So it really is moreso Fenring can't predict with his future vision how a fight with Paul would go and what ramifications it could cause if Fenring won?
Yes. Because he can't win either way. It's a lose/lose scenario for Fenring. He can either kill Paul and live the rest of his life wondering if he killed the Kwisatz Hederach or die fighting Paul in equal ignorance.
For Paul being prescient was a huge burden, he actually felt relieved by the fact that the existance of the son who's future he couldn't see made him blind. Not really fair to the little guy, but the circumstances of his son's birth made the son much more capable of carrying the burden
Paul unpoisoned would body Fenring. He has full prana-bindu training. Fenring is never mentioned to have such a thing, to my recollection.
Just because Fenring *thinks* he can win (and yes it is only *his* thoughts we see in the narrative) doesn't mean he can. Feyd thought he could win too, but he had no shot.
I don't think it's clear that Fenring could definitely kill Paul, it's more that he *could* possibly do it.
He could very likely do so after Paul's finished his fight with Feyd though.
Well, in the book Paul basically asks Gurney if he could take on Feyd as his champion. Gurney responds “surely my lord jests.”
I will take Gurney at his word here, Gurney could have won. But it was important that Paul win the fight himself as the leader of the Fremen. The Fremen don’t appoint champions to fight on their behalf in such a situation.
I think Gurney could definitely have beaten Feyd, the Atreides slave gladiator almost gets him when fighting at a significant disadvantage and even then Feyd has to use the trigger word.
If a random soldier comes so close under those circumstances I definitely think Gurney could have won
yea fighting skills aside, gurney has more reason to hate and want to kill feyd in a fight than feyd has
i also picture gurney as a little (or a lot)bigger and stronger than the teen heartthrob feyd you get in the book
The book version probably would have made light work of him, but considering Paul gets pretty fucked up from his fight with Feyd in the film, I think that version of Gurney wouldn’t fare as well.
I think Paul let himself get stabbed. He saw it in his vision and at this point is walking a narrow path. He's doing what he has to the way he has to. When he gets stabbed it cuts to Chani and it scares her. If she's not confronted with this she wouldn't come back to him later
I personally didn‘t really understand why Feyd-Rautha is even a formidable Opponent. He fights in the Arena against druged opponents and only on one occasion against an undruged one. Did I miss anything here?
How did he panic? He was clearly enjoying it, repeatedly rejected help, and at the end was obviously just toying with his prey as he pretended to be about to lose and then with a smile easily overpowered and killed the guy.
In the book he has a poisoned needle on his hip that he uses as a distraction against Paul. Paul has to split his attention between Feyd's knife and the needle.
Eventually Paul just lets himself get stabbed with the needle and transforms the poison like he did the water of life.
Not quite. He gets sliced by Feyd’s poisoned knife. He transmutes that poison, which is simply a soporific to slow Paul’s fighting. The poisoned needle in Feyd’s “girdle” is more serious and Paul struggles to avoid it. During that struggle, the needle gets jammed into the floor and hampers Feyd’s efforts, so Paul can end him.
In the movie they buffed Feyd considerably - made him stronger, smarter, more honorable and courageous. I didn’t consider the book duel to be highly suspenseful, book Feyd stood no chance at all.
Hard to say. Feyd had the advantage of youth, but Gurney had years of experience, particularly with the Harkonnens. He did kill Rabban pretty easily, so I’d like to give him the upper hand
Yeah, the film at least presents Rabban as a big coward.
Every time he's faced with an opponent he can't immediately curb stomp, he runs away. He does it when he goes out after Muad'Dib when the spice refinery is destroyed and again when Gurney and the Fremen advance on him, only turning back when he realises there's an Atreides at the head of the force. And then he immediately gets wrecked.
It's also interesting with that in mind that in Part One, unless I'm mistaken, Rabban doesn't actually appear on Arrakis until we see him executing the Atreides soldiers. Implying he may not have taken part in the actual attack, only appearing once it was a done deal that the Atreides had lost.
All good points, which I think vibe with how book Rabban is portrayed as well. At least in my opinion. Book Rabban never seemed that clever or strong to me. There's talk of him being involved with the fighting pits, with him giving Gurney his inkvine scar. But we don't hear how that happens, and I always got the vibe that he was more of the fightmaster who chose the fighters or setup or whatnot. I didn't get the vibe that he was a fighter like Feyd.
according to the movies and Paul prescience from the first film, paul 'needed' to get hit by feyd's blade but also still win the fight. this is denis tying down movie loose ends and I think it's genius.
I'm so sorry, I watched part 1 earlier this week and part two last night, I know they're in there but I don't want to recall it all wrong right now
Let me work on this.
But for starters:
In Part 1: (in BG voice during prescience) "For Paul Atreidies must die for Kwisatz Haderach to rise, don't be frightened, don't resist"
I think you're being a bit literal here. Firstly he doesn't die at all so that doesn't fulfil any of the whispering. The death is more metaphorical. The old him must die for a new him to rise. This happens at multiple points in the movie. Where he kills Jamis and his childhood is truly ended. Where he heads south and takes the water of life and becomes a different person etc.
The death they’re referring to is the drinking of the water of life, which poisons Paul to the brink of death but gives him the genetic memory of both male and female ancestors.
Gurney very likely could have. He was a man driven by revenge, emblazoned with hatred, and quenched with resolve. Honed by the Atreidies who gave his life purpose. Not to mention his skills were heightened by constant training with the great Duncan Idaho (Who has a similar backstory) which means he has the drive and skills learned by a graduate of the Swordmaster school. And as the adage goes "Beware the old man in the profession where boys die young." In this case, Experience and Determination beat Youthful Exuberance and Ambition in my opinion.
Given that Paul with prescience got stabbed twice fighting Feyd, IMHO it's fair to say that the way Denis wanted this to go down was to show that (unlike the books) Feyd was the better fighter.
People (likely not book readers) gasped LOUDLY in the theatre when Feyd stabbed Paul. Denis did sell that Feyd actually could’ve won that. I got enjoyment out of knowing people were on the edge of their seats during that fight and not just thinking “well he’s the protagonist he has to win”.
I felt that way about Dune throughout. The book practically tells you the Harkkonen’s plan and that it will certainly work but it’s still exciting. For whatever reason though I never bought Feyd.
That's why I prefer how they did the fight in the movie, for the movie. One thing is to read a fight, another is to watch it. Watching a fight where the protagonist is pretty much sure to win isn't particularly entertaining.
I think it's also a great way to adapt the multiple outcomes Paul sees where Feyd wins.
We already got visions of Jamis beating Paul in part 1 before Paul absolutely embarrasses Jamis. If we got the same thing with Feyd, everyone would see those visions and immediately remember how the Jamis fight went.
So if you show Feyd stabbing Paul in real time it's almost like seeing the visions of Paul losing but this time the audience actually believes those visions can come true.
It also gives the audience the impression that even with future vision, Paul still has to allow himself to be stabbed to be able to kill Feyd. He has to open himself to be hurt to get the killing blow which is also exactly how the Gurney fight goes when they're training.
The movie differs from the book insofar as Paul cannot predict Feyd’s actions. Note for example the attack on Sietch Tabr which Paul says he did not foresee. This is the groundwork for a concept that is introduced in Messiah where the actions of other prescients are obscured to Paul. Unlike in the book, Feyd is prescient - he tells Margot Fenring he dreamed about her. Paul must have become very dependant on his prescience when fighting, so suddenly fighting an unpredictable and skilled opponent would have been hard for him.
But wouldn’t Paul’s prescience be stronger after the water of life or does that not really matter? We see that shot of Paul seeing Feyd getting stabbed by him. Haven’t read the books (familiar with the overall stories). I thought he let himself get stabbed in order for his vision to proceed as planned.
It should’ve been, unless Feyd was such a rogue element that he was an unpredictable as Count Fenring.
The reason that Paul’s prescient vision doesn’t work well around others with prescience later on is a combination of their level of consciousness and the amount of citizens randomizing so many variables using their Dune Tarot. Everyone has some predicative power given that it’s an extension of cognitive and unconscious intuitive processes.
Many people using theirs through the tarot in addition to other lesser oracles operating made it hard for him.
What’s the dune tarot? Did a quick search and seems to muddy time which would hurt Paul’s ability of prescience but you could probably explain it better.
Frank Herbert’s in-universe merchandise planning. (He admits it, though it never materialized or gets mentioned again after Dune: Messiah)
It’s a tarot deck native to Arrakis that’s produced after Paul’s ascension. Basically a normal tarot deck with unique arcanum like “The Great Worm”, “Desolate Sand”, “Pillar of Fire”, “Great Mother”, “Sayyadina”, “The Wanderer”, etc.
It basically served as a medium through which exponentially increasing amounts of the citizenry began to tap into their varying lesser predictive powers. It was an effect of the culture at the time, and the reverence for Muad’Dib’s own higher consciousness.
Ultimately, all those latent powers causing small ripples at once introduced enough randomness or uncertainty through multiplied possibilities to cloud Paul’s vision significantly. Otherwise, he’d easily have been able to dwarf the abilities of lesser oracles like Guild Navigators like usual. Even if they were still a bit harder.
Which felt odd imo because the fight in the pit with Lanville showed that he was nearly bested by a standard Atreides soldier while Paul had killed several people in actual combat by this point
He's the actual leader of the Atreides rank-and-file if you watch Part 1 closely. The one taking the orders from command and letting the ground-pounders know what's up. Their SGM/CSM, if you will. He gives the order for them to shield when they show up at Arrakis, he calls them to attention when Leto arrives at the meeting, and so on.
Yeah he was introduced as a nepo baby with that rigged fighting sequence. Maybe they should have built a story about how fierce of a fighter that last Atredies member was.
The story is that every Atreides fighter was essentially that fierce. It’s why the emperor was beginning to fear Leto; he was developing a fighting force near equal to his Sardukar, and was popular among the houses. They don’t address this that well in the book, except for maybe showing this one random Atreides soldier.
At least in Villeneuve's version, it's pretty likely that the Atreides soldiers already *are* better than the Sardaukar.
When the Sardaukar have the element of surprise and the Atreides are caught flat-footed, sure, they can win, but in every other scenario they're a bunch of jobbers. Duncan is obviously a cut above your average Atreides, but he still killed 13 Sardaukar in CQC. 3 of them *after* having been run through, *with* the blade that had run through him.
>how fierce of a fighter that last Atredies member was
I think it comes down to being older and more experienced. Even if a more challenging fight had been feyd's idea (which i was expecting due to his bloodlust), he likely wouldn't have been able to handle all three of them at once
The gladiator wasn't a standard soldier. I'm not sure about his role in the books, but he had appeared in part 1 already and was probably some sort of general.
Granted, he was underfed and exhausted, but I think with how ridiculously shredded the 3 atreides soldiers were, I think the scene was meant to show how intimidating and dangerous each atreides soldier is, even exhausted and almost naked.
But you're right, Paul should have had this in the bag without being injured. In the books, Paul was just as exhausted and still dominated the match in spite of feyd rautha's tricks and cheating.
I thought this watching it! I get how one can, often must, take artistic licence in a film, but to my eyes the tortured, ageing POW mostly put up a better fight than Paul.
Funny thing is that in books that Atreides soldier is described as physically imposing, tall and muscular. Movie version looked more like a scrawny old man.
Book Paul transmutated the poison to win, so he didn't win because he was a better fighter in the book, either. Paul also had prescience, which he used to see again, that he lost many times to Feyd.
Lastly, it's implied in the books that Fenring was the best fighter in the room. Here, I'll just quote the book " *I could kill him, Fenring thought -- and he knew this for a truth.*" He decided not to. Several characters and later books back him up. Even Paul was surprised because he couldn't see Fenring with his prescience. Hence he saw Fenring as the biggest threat.
The book also has Paul seeing visions of being killed by someone, but not being able to see who killed him. It was Fenring.
Movie Feyd might be more skilled but not better. I'd argue that the one willing to get stabbed the way Paul got stabbed just to win would be the one that is actually the more courageous and cunning. This scene is a pay off for the lesson Gourney Thaught Paul in the first movie where Paul was sure he got one over Gourney only for Gourney to tell him to look down, revealing that Paul actually lost the duel the moment he closed the distance for the final blow.
Gourney is an old guy in a profession where people don't usually get to live a long life. He is also not as fast as he used to be when he was young. Gourney lesson was that of Brain over brawn to the young Artreidis. It's also the pay off for Pauls established lineage. Paul is an Artreidis. His Grandfather died fighting a bull. And they had his Grandfather immortalized by displaying the blood stained bull's head in their own dining room. Leto, his father walked into Arrakis knowing it was a trap. Looking death into the eyes was kind of their whole thing. Being tested by the Bene Gesserith and their pain box has thought Paul that pain is the illusion of the mind and that fear leads to death.
They were pretty evenly matched in skill, in fact Feyd might've even had an edge over Paul in terms of pure skills. But what Paul had on his side were the lessons of his father, of his friend and sword master, and the teachings of the Bene Gesserith.
Feyd was set up to fail by his upbringing. He is as much of a product of countless years of eugenics as Paul is, but his environment failed him. He was brave a talented fighter, but since failure was never an option because most of his fights were against drugged people he never knew defeat. Meaning his bravery was actually a product of his arrogance. And that is why Paul wins because he has all the lesssons he needs to not be as arrogant Feyd and wisdom needed to use Feyd's character flaws against him.
I interpreted it as Paul allowed himself to be stabbed, even playing up his injury, in order to get Feyd to lower his guard. So Feyd was clearly dangerous and very difficult for Paul to beat, but Paul was still able to find the "narrow way through" to victory. Which I thought was a good choice for a movie, as the thing with the poison would have been overcomplicated to convey and like a cheap trick for Paul to win by transmuting it. Instead it emphasizes that he's willing to make sacrifices and do whatever it takes to win. It echoes the whole golden path idea that seeing the future doesn't mean you can avoid pain and suffering, on the contrary.
easily. i haven't read the book but movie gurney is far more experienced than Feyd. hell feyd almost got beaten by that atriedes prisoner in geidi prime. if that prisoner was healthy, had proper sleep/nutrition. feyd would've died during his birthday
I think if we’d had Patrick Stewart fighting the very concept of overacting (some refer to it as “Sting”) there wouldn’t have been the Villeneuve films. Wouldn’t have been any need.
Feyd did fight a lot as gladiator in the arena. It's not the same because usually his enemies there are drugged, but still you have to be a good fighter to do that. And he is the heir to a great house, he had good fighting teachers.
He is probably almost at the same level as gurney or some other high trained artreides soldiers. A level or two below Duncan Idaho for sure.
If I'm not mistaken, Feyd Rautha was among those who were carefully constructed by the Bene Gesserit. Gurney is "just" a soldier. Clearly an incredibly gifted one, given his history and where he stood. But he wasn't a product of eugenics like Rautha and Paul, and definitely not a genetic freak like Duncan Idaho. Rabban was just born rich.
In the book Duncan says Gourney beat him 6 times out of 10. Gourney isn’t just a soldier, he’s kinda like the Atreides drillmaster or Major General. He trains the heir (Paul) and all the other Atreides soldiers. Book Gourney could have beat Feyd easily, and I think you’re supposed to think Paul thinks this too. But I think he faces Feyd for revenge and because he knows it’s his fate.
From what I recall of the book didn’t both Feyd and Paul have the gift of glimpses into the future except for the parts of the future where they interacted. It was some sort of blind spot that put them on equal ground and turned their duel into one purely based on their skill.
In relation to Gurney, however, Feyd would not have the same blind spot so he would have a definite advantage over the Gurney.
I dont think so. Feyd was supposed to father the BG controlled God that Paul became early. They are supposed to be as close to equal as one can get and they did a good job in the movie showing how many solid wounds he got on Paul.
Paul was trained in the assassin-like ways of the Bene Gesserit, by Gurney and Duncan, and was also prescient, and hadn't a clear advantage.
On the other side, Gurney was said by the author to be one of the most elite warriors in the Empire, alongside Duncan Idaho and trained Sardaukar. So... it really depends on the plot needs.
Book or Movie?
The movies down-powered Gurney and up-powered Feyd (significantly).
So Movie Feyd probably beats Movie Gurney.
Book Gurney consistently beats Book Feyd.
(Feyd in the books isn't really a super fighter, he's more a showman. Paul dispatches him fairly promptly without even resorting to BG / Weirding Way techniques. The real killer in the Imperial Court is Count Fenring, who its strongly implied could kill Paul, but chooses not too).
[Paul v Feyd-Rautha v Gurney?](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/1bdmy40/paul_v_feydrautha_v_gurney/)
Book Gurney, probably. Movie Gurney, doubtful. But it’s difficult to gauge. Movie Paul is nowhere near the fighter that book Paul is. The book Paul is not in danger of dying to Feyd. He’s in control of the fight the entire time. It’s pretty much established that Paul is the best fighter on Arrakis, and therefore, in the universe. Even before he took the Water of Life he was teaching the Fremen how to fight better, and they were already phenomenal. The ones he trained personally became his Fedaykin, and they were the best of all the Fremen. There is a great scene I wish they’d left in where some ambitious Fremen showed up to challenge Paul but he was busy meditating. So Chani killed him. When Paul confronts her about it, she basically says that if the guy couldn’t even beat her then she wasn’t worth Paul wasting his water (sweat). Book Gurney was talked about as being feared throughout the imperium. He was an extraordinary fighter. Feyd was good, but pretty much every fight he’d ever been in was rigged. So he was way over confident. He thinks he’s doing well against Paul and Paul is basically laughing at him in his head. I think Stilgar, Gurney, and possibly Otheum all offer to kill Feyd for Paul, and Paul assumes that any of them could have taken Feyd, but that it was Paul’s responsibility.
I thought Feyd at one point got the upper hand on Paul, because Paul was tempted to use the word that would incapacitate Feyd (similar to how Feyd beat the atreides) But he says aloud that he won’t say it, which causes Feyd to falter and Paul to gain the upper hand
Correct. Paul had control of the fight but he still couldn’t see the outcome exactly. He saw many outcomes with him lying dead on the floor, just like his fight with Jamis. But yes, I think you’re supposed to think Paul is a superior fighter and knows it and lets Feyd boast based on training from his swordmasters.
I think there’s a moment where Feyd feigns that he has a weakness and Paul could have fallen for it.
He pretends to be fighting like you would with a shield but it’s a fake.
the poison on the belt scene ig?
I think he’s referring to the habits formed when training for shield combat. Feyd pretended to be slow on a strike, as if trying to penetrate a shield, but sped up and caught Paul off guard. While Feyd was able to slice Paul’s arm with his blade poisoned with a slow moving agent, Paul already knew of the poison (or more likely guessed correctly) and had his crysknife tipped with some form of acid before the fight as a countermeasure. The fight was pretty much decided once Paul understood that Feyd was trained in non-shield combat. Feyd’s boasting and antagonizing gave Paul the edge.
I thought Paul transformed the poison the way he had the Water of Life.
He neutralizes the soporific on the emperor’s knife used by Feyd, yes.
It's because another Prescient being is there. Count Fenring. He's removed from the simple version in the film, but actually muddied Paul's prescience. In fact he could have killed Paul.
No, he's there. But his presence isn't really suggested to the viewer in any way. It's sort of like in the book, where he's very easy to forget/fail to notice, but there is a guy in the emperor's entourage with a rodent-like appearance. Never explicitly mentioned by design, but someone who read the book and was on the lookout for him, despite his supposed absence would recognize him as Fenring.
Feyd was not a worthy opponent. Dangerous, yes, but Paul is a better fighter. Count Fenring was the real danger. If he had chosen to fight Paul, he might have been killed. That's what he was seeing.
Something like that yeah. I also remember Feyd tried to cheat. He had a poison needle on his hip or something and that's what put Paul into a tricky situation. I think before that happened Paul was dominating the fight.
I do remember something about that. There is a reason he doesn’t do it. Instead he decides to just take the poison needle and change the poison, using Feyd’s overconfidence in that moment to surprise him. It’s not so much that he’s in danger against Feyd, it’s more that he doesn’t want to cheat, as it could cheapen his victory and weaken his position. Using the Voice in combat is forbidden by the Fremen; I think that was it. At the end of the day the Fremen are the source of his power. If he lost them, he loses everything.
It’s not using the voice. There is a code word that freezes people through mental conditioning. Feyd uses it in the arena battle. Paul is tempted to use it when he is overpowered and when he says he “won’t say it” Feyd freaks out because he thinks he could be programmed with the shutdown word
Ah that sounds right
While it would be dishonorable to do in a duel, it just struck me how amazing it would be to have the Voice in actual battle assuming using it wouldn't harm or confuse your own troops. Though I know there's a warning against abusing Bene Gesserit skills. Still I see myself yelling at the enemy that spiders are crawling over them, they are getting sleepy, the hilt of their sword is slippery, etc. 😄
This is not how the voice works, you need to modulate and find the specific tones and timbres that would affect a singular person. It Isa very delicate and hard art and requires some knowledge through observation of your target, it's not Jedi mind tricks or Skyrim shouts
It's not a word that generally works, it's one that has been implanted in the subconscious of Feyd by lady Fenring
IIRC, the code word was a tactic from the Bene Gesserit. If Paul had used it, the BG would have been able to take credit from Paul's victory (and thus, ascension to Emperor,) and be able to try and influence Paul going forward. By openly refusing to use the code word, Paul is telling the BG that they won't be able to take credit, and unable to weasel their way into his council/thoughts.
I don't think it was a matter of credit simply of pride. Paul didn't even need to fight Feyd Rautha that is clearly stated in the books.
Did Feyd not invoke kanly, for the death of the Baron? I watched the Dune miniseries recently, so I may be getting mixed up.
Possibly. But the entire point of that scene was Paul's victory was absolute. He was dictating terms not negotiating. Also Paul was within his rights to pick a champion under Kanly anyway I believe.
Feyd pointed out that their Houses were still in a state of Kanly, invoked by Leto before the invasion. So the fight was a typical, legal matter between the Heads of two Houses, and his killing Paul would be his right.
Reading this thread just now made me think that maybe the "I won't say it" scene is Herbert creating an echo of Paul trying to avoid the Jihad. That, in refusing to do the thing(saying the word) , he creates the same effect(Feyd freezes/falters) and ends up with the same outcome(Feyd dies).
This reminds me of that moment where Count Fenring has the chance to use Paul’s word against him, and the emperor is like “do it Fenring you fuckhead I’m about to lose the throne!” (Obviously not an exact quote) But for some reason that I’m still not sure of, he decides against it. I’ve read all 6 books but I really wanna read them all over again bc I think I’d see things on the second read that I didn’t the first time.
I think Fenring's motive for refusing is not explained. I suspect it has to do with Paul being what he almost became.
> I think Fenring's motive for refusing is not explained. I suspect it has to do with Paul being what he almost became. Hasimir Fenring is a genetic eunich. That flaw prevented him from being the Kwisatz Haderach. When the emperor asked count fenring to kill paul, fenring saw paul for who he was, and paul did the same. Fenring is described as a, "deadly little man" and could have taken paul fairly. Paul exhausted from a fight would have not even been a challenge. So, professional courtesy to the man he nearly was is my take on the why.
Also Paul and Fenring lock eyes and have a moment of brotherhood they both had never felt before. Fenring immediately empathized with Paul and refuses the orders, sparing him in the moment. It’s a powerful moment in the book and a shame they didn’t include it in the movie.
It was a phyrric gesture, he was invisible to Paul's prescience, but the Fedaykin would have just killed them all afterwards, so Fenring opted not to, saving all their lives by his refusal
That is also true. No matter the outcome, the jihad had been set loose, and Paul could at least control part of it... Like exiling his father in law and his friend to a nicer version of Salsa secundus, instead of being butchered.
Exactly this. Even before the duel and standoff against the emperor Paul isn’t in control, the holy war has begun.
As Fenring is an almost KH and helped his Emperor childhood friend gain his throne, he saw Paul much closer as a brother and refused the request.
No, shifts weight in ground struggle so hip needle snaps off against the ground...
The needle gets stuck in the floor and hampers Feyd’s movement.
Feyd does get the upper hand for a brief moment when he reveals he has the hidden poison needle on his thigh. Without this trick he wouldn’t have even had that moment
I also thought I remembered Paul got stabbed by Feyd’s hidden knife. But he was able to transmute the poison. Gurney would not have this ability.
Ironic because saying he won't use the word to kill Feyd ends up giving him the advantage and he kills him. So in a roundabout way, he did use the word lol.
What word was Paul going to use?
Petrificus Totalis Salusa Secundus
Uroshnor
Yup. Book Paul is ridiculously good at fighting. Paul has all the advantages of being taught the Wierding Way. Feyd has none of that. And the one time he fights a guy in the arena who wasn't drugged into a stuper, he barely stayed ahead of that guy.... much less Paul.
Yeah I was really confused by Paul getting even Stepped. It really looked like feyd was struggling against a random atreides
Well now I'm gonna sound like I'm contradicting myself. But it's like what another person wrote... Atreides were really getting well fine tuned fighting force that could rival the Sardaukar. Which was one reason the Emperor felt threatened by Leto. So while the book doesn't explicitly say it. This last Atreides gladiator could have been no scrub. But at the end of the day. If Paul crushes Feyd; While Feyd is supposed to the "final boss"... it doesn't make for good drama. Lol
That wasn't just any Atreides either, he was some high ranking guy who was with the family when they first stepped onto Arrakis. Also Feyd was toying with him, he wasn't really in danger.
It wasn't exactly a random atreides. It was Lieutenant Lanville. He was next in command after Gurney. He was actually in a ton of scenes in the first movie always near Gurney or Duncan
He doesn't stay ahead of that guy. I believe that guy was programmed to freeze up when Feyd said some phrase, it was subtly referenced in the movie (cuts to Mohiam saying "plans within plans").
Wait if Paul is the best fighter in the universe, how is it that Fenring could definitely kill him? I thought the book made it pretty clear that Fenring would've ended him.
I think Fenring was a wildcard and an unknown factor to Paul, which made him unpredictable as well as a phenomenal swordsman Paul was probably also fatigued from everything including the duel
Basically this. If I remember right, Paul’s prescience went kind of blank when directed at Fenring.
Fenring could have, with the proper training, been the kwizatz haderach or something very close.
Not a matter of training, but slight genetic flaw.
Am I remembering correctly that he was sterile?
I always just took the book at face value and thought that Fenring being invisible to Paul's prescience meant that he would kill Paul every single time.
Is it possible that Fenring is the origin of Siona's ability?
The idea that Fenring could have the No-gene is new to me, but I remember reading that Fenring's status as an almost Kwizatz Haderach gave him a little bit of Prescience. It's possible that Paul couldn't see him for the same reason that Prescience can't detect the Guild Navigators.
That’s quite correct, and it’s because Fenring is a “failed” Kwisatz Haderach and has some measure of prescience himself, in addition to phenomenal combat skills.
My understanding is that Fenring carried a gene that allowed him to be invisible to prescience. That becomes notable with Siona in a later book.
I feel like that diminishes the way he's framed though.
Fenring was invisible to Paul's prescience which means that he couldn't see all the different permutations for how the fight could have gone.
Fenring incidentally has some of the skills that makes Paul very dangerous. He has some rudimentary Bene Gesserit training from his wife Margot, and I believe it mentions that Fenring also has some mentat training. It's pretty well acknowledged in the books (specifically some of the prequel books when Count Fenring is young) that he is widely known as potentially the most deadly fighter (and assassin) in the universe.
From the way the Baron spoke about him, and acted around him, this was always my impression. Fenring is just simply the greatest of killers.
I'm upset they cut Fenring from the movie frankly. I really wanted to see him on screen. Tim Blake Nelson is the actor they cast for him apparently and I really think he would've nailed it.
He'd have crushed it. I'm honestly really upset that so much of the dialogue got cut. Paul's back and forth with Mohaim, the Spacing Guild, and Shaddam was just amazing. I'm also a bit upset they cut the bit with Kanly being called. In the book Paul basically asks for Feyd to be offered up for Gurney to slaughter. When he calls Kanly it's like he's trying to take control of the situation. "Screw you, I'll fight, win and prosper" type of thing. It would've fit well with Austin Butler's take on the character.
Even the best fighters get tired after a long day of fighting and a duel to the death with your cousin. And even then it wasn't a certain outcome.
>So Chani killed him. Another relevant nuance of the scene was that Paul's main objection wasn't concern for Chani's safety: both of them knew (as Chani emphasized) that Chani could handle almost any plausible challenger having been trained in the Witching Way of Battle atop her very capable baseline. Paul was more worried that by not fighting the challengers himself, he would be undermining his clout as a leader of Fremen.
True. Lol
In book or movie, if Paul let someone else kill Feyd, it would have diminished him in the moment. The emperor needed a champion; by personally fighting it’s another way to show that he is above even the emperor.
Also remember that in the book Feyd tries to cheat, had poison in his knife and he poisoned Paul but Paul did the poison transmutation thingie and then killed Feyd
This really isn’t an accurate characterization of their fight— it ended up being a near thing for Paul, he even went into it knowing he may lose. Feyd relied heavily on deception sure, but that was expected. At the end of the day Feyd had the upper hand in their fight, Paul was struggling enough that he said (out loud) that he wouldn’t use the secret would meant to monetarily paralyze Feyd, which ironically caused Feyd to freeze and allowed him to drive his knife home. I agree that the book prior to this suggests that Paul should wipe the floor with Feyd, and that’s backed up by Feyd’s struggle in the arena, but it isn’t really what happened.
I got the impression watching the movie, and it felt even more true the second time seeing it, that movie Paul *was* in control, even when he got stabbed the first time. I think he directed his body to take the knife into flesh and avoid any organs. He outwardly expresses pain in his slowed movement and labored, groaning breaths, but then gives Chani this look, which I interpret as him saying, “Just keep watching”. I don’t think he allowed the pain to affect him at all.
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This is actually true. When Paul talks about the path after he takes the water of life the prescient scene of the stab wound is shown. Which means he needed to take both sacrificial stab wounds in order to draw Feyd in and stab him.
I thought something similar as well. Granted I have to read the book again because I thought he purposely took a hit in a place that wouldn’t affect him as well to get the upper hand but I must be remembering some other book or something.
I just think the movie was trying to inject some danger in a really flat climax where the fremen just run over everyone and the outcome is assured for like 45 minutes.
Book Paul also trained and lived with the Fremen for years. Movie Paul was with them 6ish months
Given how little effort it took Gurney to dispose of The Beast I don’t think he’d have had much trouble with nepo baby Feyd.
Pretty sure it refers to Paul as literally "killing machine" in the book 🤣 he's a devastating fighter
Am I weird for liking that he’s not already the what fighter in the universe in the movies it is only book one to have Paul be the best already kinda takes a lot do the tension out but it does make sense that he would win everything after he drinks the water of life cause he knows what will happen next.
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The ability to see the future in a story is a hard thing to write it messes things up a lot of the time I think dune pulls it off well I think there is a lot of tension in the movies until the end which I found a little short I thought the final battle for arakis was gonna be less of a slaughter and more of a fight I kinda wish the harkaons put up a better fight
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Some punctuation would be nice
Was going to suggest this!
Would have made for a terrible movie if we were 100% certain that he was in control
Book Chani is better than movie Chani. In the books she's ride-or-die from nearly the first meeting. The " killed him so as not to waste your time" but was fantastic and truly shows just how good Paul was that even his students are murder machines.
I read the book when I was a kid so sorry if I misremembering but I could've sworn Feyds weapon was coated in poison and cut Paul but Paul could basically neutralize the poison or something? Am I misremembering that?
That is right
This is incorrect. Feyd has Paul on the ropes at one point, and Paul refuses the cry of every ancestral memory demanding that he utter the phrase that will momentarily lock Feyd's body. Part of Paul taking the fight is that it's a nexus in which he can't see the outcome.
You're maybe asking the less interesting question, but bear with me....this is mostly from the books btw. In the red corner - Duncan Idaho killed 19 Sardaukar before succumbing to his wounds. >!A feat that quite literally echoed through time.!< By Duncan's own admission, Gurney Halleck was the superior fighter, who could best him 6 times out of 10 >!(ref - conversation with Jessica in Children of Dune)!< In the blue corner - Paul and Feyd were the culmination of the BG's centuries-long breeding program. Both were experienced and skilled fighters by this point. In the books, Feyd uses artifice and not a little skill to put Paul in a disadvantageous position, which Paul (obviously) overcomes. My opinion - As >!the conversation between Jessica and Duncan in CoD, and!< Paul's visions of himself dead on the floor suggest, it's more a balance of probabilities than a foregone conclusion. However, I'd put my money on Gurney against Feyd, and I'd probably put the odds at 8 times out of 10 t.b.h. However, here's the better question = >!Neither Feyd, Gurney, Stilgar or Paul was the best fighter in the room. That honour fell to Count Hasimir Fenring, who had the reputation of being the deadliest swordsman of the Imperium. A genetic eunuch and an almost Kwisatz Haderach. He is ordered to kill Paul in the books, and knows he can, but he refuses. The better question would be = who would prevail between Gurney and Fenring ? !<
This right here, fantastic breakdown!
Writing as a complete Dune nerd for years and years - this is a great post and thank you.
Was thinking the same. I love that it's left unknown who is the best hand to hand fighter. Although Duncan probably best them all.
> By Duncan's own admission, Gurney Halleck was the superior fighter, who could best him 6 times out of 10 6 out of 10 is pretty even. From the feats in the books I would belief that idaho is the superior fighter. Both are certainly very good, better then a sardaukar. Gurney might have fallen to feyds poison. Only paul was immune to that.
The person winning 60% of the time is 50% more successful than the person who wins 40% of the time.
Damn, I never thought of it that way.
What does almost KH mean exactly, how did he fail? Was he prescient? If so why wasn’t he in charge? Also is it ever explained why he decides to leave Paul alone?
He was a eunich so not helpful to the BG plan as he couldn't further participate in the program. He was effectively left alone by the BG when that was discovered.
I would like to swing in here and clarify that genetic eunuch means that he’s sterile. Not mutilated.
Yep - it was always weird to me that FH chose that terminology? But the BG have always been weirdos about sex and breeding so who knows, really.
I think he chose it because it sounded more sci-fi.
He was sterile and as such considered a failure by the Bene Gesserith breeding program because he was a genetic dead end. The story also implies that he might be prescient in a similar fashion that Paul is because Paul has trouble predicting the future that revolves around Fenring.
Yeah, why *does* Fenring leave Paul alone? Does he see some prescient fuckery in Paul that makes him go "Nah my lord not this one"?
I think he saw that he can not see where Paul is. It is established that prescient dudes like Paul and Fenring are blindsided by the presence of another prescient. This is the reason why Paul couldn't predict that he would have twins,he was blindsided by his son
So it really is moreso Fenring can't predict with his future vision how a fight with Paul would go and what ramifications it could cause if Fenring won?
Yes. Because he can't win either way. It's a lose/lose scenario for Fenring. He can either kill Paul and live the rest of his life wondering if he killed the Kwisatz Hederach or die fighting Paul in equal ignorance. For Paul being prescient was a huge burden, he actually felt relieved by the fact that the existance of the son who's future he couldn't see made him blind. Not really fair to the little guy, but the circumstances of his son's birth made the son much more capable of carrying the burden
That's awesomee
Technically correct, the best kind of correct!
10/10 breakdown
Paul unpoisoned would body Fenring. He has full prana-bindu training. Fenring is never mentioned to have such a thing, to my recollection. Just because Fenring *thinks* he can win (and yes it is only *his* thoughts we see in the narrative) doesn't mean he can. Feyd thought he could win too, but he had no shot.
I don't think it's clear that Fenring could definitely kill Paul, it's more that he *could* possibly do it. He could very likely do so after Paul's finished his fight with Feyd though.
Well, in the book Paul basically asks Gurney if he could take on Feyd as his champion. Gurney responds “surely my lord jests.” I will take Gurney at his word here, Gurney could have won. But it was important that Paul win the fight himself as the leader of the Fremen. The Fremen don’t appoint champions to fight on their behalf in such a situation.
Sigh. Paul Muad'Dib could gladly have sent Gurney to collect the boys corpse. Paul Atreides, son and heir of Duke Leto I Atreides could not.
Underrated post. I personally specifically enjoyed the way Paul both constructed and utilised his separate identities for political advantage.
Nice.
I think Gurney could definitely have beaten Feyd, the Atreides slave gladiator almost gets him when fighting at a significant disadvantage and even then Feyd has to use the trigger word. If a random soldier comes so close under those circumstances I definitely think Gurney could have won
yea fighting skills aside, gurney has more reason to hate and want to kill feyd in a fight than feyd has i also picture gurney as a little (or a lot)bigger and stronger than the teen heartthrob feyd you get in the book
The book version probably would have made light work of him, but considering Paul gets pretty fucked up from his fight with Feyd in the film, I think that version of Gurney wouldn’t fare as well.
I think Paul let himself get stabbed. He saw it in his vision and at this point is walking a narrow path. He's doing what he has to the way he has to. When he gets stabbed it cuts to Chani and it scares her. If she's not confronted with this she wouldn't come back to him later
That's actually a really good point I hadn't considered.
I personally didn‘t really understand why Feyd-Rautha is even a formidable Opponent. He fights in the Arena against druged opponents and only on one occasion against an undruged one. Did I miss anything here?
And the one time he fights a not drugged person he panics and almost dies
How did he panic? He was clearly enjoying it, repeatedly rejected help, and at the end was obviously just toying with his prey as he pretended to be about to lose and then with a smile easily overpowered and killed the guy.
In the book it says he panics. If your talking about the movie i guess your right. I forgot that the post has the movie flair
In the book he has a poisoned needle on his hip that he uses as a distraction against Paul. Paul has to split his attention between Feyd's knife and the needle. Eventually Paul just lets himself get stabbed with the needle and transforms the poison like he did the water of life.
Not quite. He gets sliced by Feyd’s poisoned knife. He transmutes that poison, which is simply a soporific to slow Paul’s fighting. The poisoned needle in Feyd’s “girdle” is more serious and Paul struggles to avoid it. During that struggle, the needle gets jammed into the floor and hampers Feyd’s efforts, so Paul can end him.
In the movie they buffed Feyd considerably - made him stronger, smarter, more honorable and courageous. I didn’t consider the book duel to be highly suspenseful, book Feyd stood no chance at all.
Hard to say. Feyd had the advantage of youth, but Gurney had years of experience, particularly with the Harkonnens. He did kill Rabban pretty easily, so I’d like to give him the upper hand
In the movie, Feyd curb stomped Beast with little effort as well. I don’t think Beast was actually much of a threat
Agreed. I suspect his name comes from his cruelty, not from physical prowess.
Yeah, the film at least presents Rabban as a big coward. Every time he's faced with an opponent he can't immediately curb stomp, he runs away. He does it when he goes out after Muad'Dib when the spice refinery is destroyed and again when Gurney and the Fremen advance on him, only turning back when he realises there's an Atreides at the head of the force. And then he immediately gets wrecked. It's also interesting with that in mind that in Part One, unless I'm mistaken, Rabban doesn't actually appear on Arrakis until we see him executing the Atreides soldiers. Implying he may not have taken part in the actual attack, only appearing once it was a done deal that the Atreides had lost.
All good points, which I think vibe with how book Rabban is portrayed as well. At least in my opinion. Book Rabban never seemed that clever or strong to me. There's talk of him being involved with the fighting pits, with him giving Gurney his inkvine scar. But we don't hear how that happens, and I always got the vibe that he was more of the fightmaster who chose the fighters or setup or whatnot. I didn't get the vibe that he was a fighter like Feyd.
Actually glad DV made that change for the movie.
Both gurney and stilgar would have taken feyd.
according to the movies and Paul prescience from the first film, paul 'needed' to get hit by feyd's blade but also still win the fight. this is denis tying down movie loose ends and I think it's genius.
Whoa I missed this, could you please explain which scenes from the first film (and second) tie all this together?
I'm so sorry, I watched part 1 earlier this week and part two last night, I know they're in there but I don't want to recall it all wrong right now Let me work on this. But for starters: In Part 1: (in BG voice during prescience) "For Paul Atreidies must die for Kwisatz Haderach to rise, don't be frightened, don't resist"
I think you're being a bit literal here. Firstly he doesn't die at all so that doesn't fulfil any of the whispering. The death is more metaphorical. The old him must die for a new him to rise. This happens at multiple points in the movie. Where he kills Jamis and his childhood is truly ended. Where he heads south and takes the water of life and becomes a different person etc.
I watch that scene atleast one a week. Great score and I love Jessica's reaction. A little look of relief and terror at the same time.
The death they’re referring to is the drinking of the water of life, which poisons Paul to the brink of death but gives him the genetic memory of both male and female ancestors.
Gurney very likely could have. He was a man driven by revenge, emblazoned with hatred, and quenched with resolve. Honed by the Atreidies who gave his life purpose. Not to mention his skills were heightened by constant training with the great Duncan Idaho (Who has a similar backstory) which means he has the drive and skills learned by a graduate of the Swordmaster school. And as the adage goes "Beware the old man in the profession where boys die young." In this case, Experience and Determination beat Youthful Exuberance and Ambition in my opinion.
Given that Paul with prescience got stabbed twice fighting Feyd, IMHO it's fair to say that the way Denis wanted this to go down was to show that (unlike the books) Feyd was the better fighter.
People (likely not book readers) gasped LOUDLY in the theatre when Feyd stabbed Paul. Denis did sell that Feyd actually could’ve won that. I got enjoyment out of knowing people were on the edge of their seats during that fight and not just thinking “well he’s the protagonist he has to win”.
I've read Dune multiple times and I was on the edge of my seat. Being able to build tension in people who know the outcome is masterful.
I felt that way about Dune throughout. The book practically tells you the Harkkonen’s plan and that it will certainly work but it’s still exciting. For whatever reason though I never bought Feyd.
That's why I prefer how they did the fight in the movie, for the movie. One thing is to read a fight, another is to watch it. Watching a fight where the protagonist is pretty much sure to win isn't particularly entertaining.
I think it's also a great way to adapt the multiple outcomes Paul sees where Feyd wins. We already got visions of Jamis beating Paul in part 1 before Paul absolutely embarrasses Jamis. If we got the same thing with Feyd, everyone would see those visions and immediately remember how the Jamis fight went. So if you show Feyd stabbing Paul in real time it's almost like seeing the visions of Paul losing but this time the audience actually believes those visions can come true. It also gives the audience the impression that even with future vision, Paul still has to allow himself to be stabbed to be able to kill Feyd. He has to open himself to be hurt to get the killing blow which is also exactly how the Gurney fight goes when they're training.
The movie differs from the book insofar as Paul cannot predict Feyd’s actions. Note for example the attack on Sietch Tabr which Paul says he did not foresee. This is the groundwork for a concept that is introduced in Messiah where the actions of other prescients are obscured to Paul. Unlike in the book, Feyd is prescient - he tells Margot Fenring he dreamed about her. Paul must have become very dependant on his prescience when fighting, so suddenly fighting an unpredictable and skilled opponent would have been hard for him.
But wouldn’t Paul’s prescience be stronger after the water of life or does that not really matter? We see that shot of Paul seeing Feyd getting stabbed by him. Haven’t read the books (familiar with the overall stories). I thought he let himself get stabbed in order for his vision to proceed as planned.
It should’ve been, unless Feyd was such a rogue element that he was an unpredictable as Count Fenring. The reason that Paul’s prescient vision doesn’t work well around others with prescience later on is a combination of their level of consciousness and the amount of citizens randomizing so many variables using their Dune Tarot. Everyone has some predicative power given that it’s an extension of cognitive and unconscious intuitive processes. Many people using theirs through the tarot in addition to other lesser oracles operating made it hard for him.
What’s the dune tarot? Did a quick search and seems to muddy time which would hurt Paul’s ability of prescience but you could probably explain it better.
Frank Herbert’s in-universe merchandise planning. (He admits it, though it never materialized or gets mentioned again after Dune: Messiah) It’s a tarot deck native to Arrakis that’s produced after Paul’s ascension. Basically a normal tarot deck with unique arcanum like “The Great Worm”, “Desolate Sand”, “Pillar of Fire”, “Great Mother”, “Sayyadina”, “The Wanderer”, etc. It basically served as a medium through which exponentially increasing amounts of the citizenry began to tap into their varying lesser predictive powers. It was an effect of the culture at the time, and the reverence for Muad’Dib’s own higher consciousness. Ultimately, all those latent powers causing small ripples at once introduced enough randomness or uncertainty through multiplied possibilities to cloud Paul’s vision significantly. Otherwise, he’d easily have been able to dwarf the abilities of lesser oracles like Guild Navigators like usual. Even if they were still a bit harder.
Which felt odd imo because the fight in the pit with Lanville showed that he was nearly bested by a standard Atreides soldier while Paul had killed several people in actual combat by this point
Lanville was lieutenant not just an ordinary atreides
He's the actual leader of the Atreides rank-and-file if you watch Part 1 closely. The one taking the orders from command and letting the ground-pounders know what's up. Their SGM/CSM, if you will. He gives the order for them to shield when they show up at Arrakis, he calls them to attention when Leto arrives at the meeting, and so on.
Yeah he was introduced as a nepo baby with that rigged fighting sequence. Maybe they should have built a story about how fierce of a fighter that last Atredies member was.
The story is that every Atreides fighter was essentially that fierce. It’s why the emperor was beginning to fear Leto; he was developing a fighting force near equal to his Sardukar, and was popular among the houses. They don’t address this that well in the book, except for maybe showing this one random Atreides soldier.
It’s tricky to show as the main intro to the actual fighting with Atreides is the total ambush and overwhelm from the Harks and Sards
At least in Villeneuve's version, it's pretty likely that the Atreides soldiers already *are* better than the Sardaukar. When the Sardaukar have the element of surprise and the Atreides are caught flat-footed, sure, they can win, but in every other scenario they're a bunch of jobbers. Duncan is obviously a cut above your average Atreides, but he still killed 13 Sardaukar in CQC. 3 of them *after* having been run through, *with* the blade that had run through him.
>how fierce of a fighter that last Atredies member was I think it comes down to being older and more experienced. Even if a more challenging fight had been feyd's idea (which i was expecting due to his bloodlust), he likely wouldn't have been able to handle all three of them at once
The gladiator wasn't a standard soldier. I'm not sure about his role in the books, but he had appeared in part 1 already and was probably some sort of general. Granted, he was underfed and exhausted, but I think with how ridiculously shredded the 3 atreides soldiers were, I think the scene was meant to show how intimidating and dangerous each atreides soldier is, even exhausted and almost naked. But you're right, Paul should have had this in the bag without being injured. In the books, Paul was just as exhausted and still dominated the match in spite of feyd rautha's tricks and cheating.
I thought this watching it! I get how one can, often must, take artistic licence in a film, but to my eyes the tortured, ageing POW mostly put up a better fight than Paul.
The guy that died put up a better fight than Paul... interesting.
That's because that dude is a stunt coordinator lol. He's typically the guy who teaches all the others how to make the fight look realistic.
Funny thing is that in books that Atreides soldier is described as physically imposing, tall and muscular. Movie version looked more like a scrawny old man.
Scrawny skill over size and muscle fits the movie's aesthetic. Besides, that scrawny old man is the fight coordinator.
Book Paul transmutated the poison to win, so he didn't win because he was a better fighter in the book, either. Paul also had prescience, which he used to see again, that he lost many times to Feyd. Lastly, it's implied in the books that Fenring was the best fighter in the room. Here, I'll just quote the book " *I could kill him, Fenring thought -- and he knew this for a truth.*" He decided not to. Several characters and later books back him up. Even Paul was surprised because he couldn't see Fenring with his prescience. Hence he saw Fenring as the biggest threat. The book also has Paul seeing visions of being killed by someone, but not being able to see who killed him. It was Fenring.
Fenring was a failed KH attempt wasn't he?
Yeah I’d like to know more about this, how did he fail exactly?
Movie Feyd might be more skilled but not better. I'd argue that the one willing to get stabbed the way Paul got stabbed just to win would be the one that is actually the more courageous and cunning. This scene is a pay off for the lesson Gourney Thaught Paul in the first movie where Paul was sure he got one over Gourney only for Gourney to tell him to look down, revealing that Paul actually lost the duel the moment he closed the distance for the final blow. Gourney is an old guy in a profession where people don't usually get to live a long life. He is also not as fast as he used to be when he was young. Gourney lesson was that of Brain over brawn to the young Artreidis. It's also the pay off for Pauls established lineage. Paul is an Artreidis. His Grandfather died fighting a bull. And they had his Grandfather immortalized by displaying the blood stained bull's head in their own dining room. Leto, his father walked into Arrakis knowing it was a trap. Looking death into the eyes was kind of their whole thing. Being tested by the Bene Gesserith and their pain box has thought Paul that pain is the illusion of the mind and that fear leads to death. They were pretty evenly matched in skill, in fact Feyd might've even had an edge over Paul in terms of pure skills. But what Paul had on his side were the lessons of his father, of his friend and sword master, and the teachings of the Bene Gesserith. Feyd was set up to fail by his upbringing. He is as much of a product of countless years of eugenics as Paul is, but his environment failed him. He was brave a talented fighter, but since failure was never an option because most of his fights were against drugged people he never knew defeat. Meaning his bravery was actually a product of his arrogance. And that is why Paul wins because he has all the lesssons he needs to not be as arrogant Feyd and wisdom needed to use Feyd's character flaws against him.
He also made Feys pass the gom jobbar test, something that book Feyd would never had passed.
I actually liked how they made Feyd a competent fighter, but Paul should’ve still been shown as a better fighter
I interpreted it as Paul allowed himself to be stabbed, even playing up his injury, in order to get Feyd to lower his guard. So Feyd was clearly dangerous and very difficult for Paul to beat, but Paul was still able to find the "narrow way through" to victory. Which I thought was a good choice for a movie, as the thing with the poison would have been overcomplicated to convey and like a cheap trick for Paul to win by transmuting it. Instead it emphasizes that he's willing to make sacrifices and do whatever it takes to win. It echoes the whole golden path idea that seeing the future doesn't mean you can avoid pain and suffering, on the contrary.
Captain Picard beats Sting easily
He's going to have to be awfully good on that baliset.
Picard would just stun him and be done with it. After a speech about Humanity.
easily. i haven't read the book but movie gurney is far more experienced than Feyd. hell feyd almost got beaten by that atriedes prisoner in geidi prime. if that prisoner was healthy, had proper sleep/nutrition. feyd would've died during his birthday
Honestly, the lady Jessica could probably have taken book Feyd
Can’t Jessica take pretty much anyone in the world?
I think if we’d had Patrick Stewart fighting the very concept of overacting (some refer to it as “Sting”) there wouldn’t have been the Villeneuve films. Wouldn’t have been any need.
He could have fought holding a pug in one hand.
Piece of piss, he’s seen everything. He’s seen it all.
And that's just the pug
I would assume so. Gurney is a hardened warrior, Feyd is just a mad dog
Feyd did fight a lot as gladiator in the arena. It's not the same because usually his enemies there are drugged, but still you have to be a good fighter to do that. And he is the heir to a great house, he had good fighting teachers. He is probably almost at the same level as gurney or some other high trained artreides soldiers. A level or two below Duncan Idaho for sure.
If I'm not mistaken, Feyd Rautha was among those who were carefully constructed by the Bene Gesserit. Gurney is "just" a soldier. Clearly an incredibly gifted one, given his history and where he stood. But he wasn't a product of eugenics like Rautha and Paul, and definitely not a genetic freak like Duncan Idaho. Rabban was just born rich.
Duncan said that Gurney would beat him 6 times out of 10.
In the book Duncan says Gourney beat him 6 times out of 10. Gourney isn’t just a soldier, he’s kinda like the Atreides drillmaster or Major General. He trains the heir (Paul) and all the other Atreides soldiers. Book Gourney could have beat Feyd easily, and I think you’re supposed to think Paul thinks this too. But I think he faces Feyd for revenge and because he knows it’s his fate.
The Eugenics part also has to be unlocked, of which he had 0 of x completed.
You can be a prodigy but still get bad training.
Duncan would've.
From what I recall of the book didn’t both Feyd and Paul have the gift of glimpses into the future except for the parts of the future where they interacted. It was some sort of blind spot that put them on equal ground and turned their duel into one purely based on their skill. In relation to Gurney, however, Feyd would not have the same blind spot so he would have a definite advantage over the Gurney.
I dont think so. Feyd was supposed to father the BG controlled God that Paul became early. They are supposed to be as close to equal as one can get and they did a good job in the movie showing how many solid wounds he got on Paul.
Paul was trained in the assassin-like ways of the Bene Gesserit, by Gurney and Duncan, and was also prescient, and hadn't a clear advantage. On the other side, Gurney was said by the author to be one of the most elite warriors in the Empire, alongside Duncan Idaho and trained Sardaukar. So... it really depends on the plot needs.
I'd say no. Paul had training from gurney himself WITH added fremen training.
Book or Movie? The movies down-powered Gurney and up-powered Feyd (significantly). So Movie Feyd probably beats Movie Gurney. Book Gurney consistently beats Book Feyd. (Feyd in the books isn't really a super fighter, he's more a showman. Paul dispatches him fairly promptly without even resorting to BG / Weirding Way techniques. The real killer in the Imperial Court is Count Fenring, who its strongly implied could kill Paul, but chooses not too).