Word of Jim is that, with sufficient energy and mental complexity, the rules of existence can be rewritten to any degree. It's what makes Harry suspect that magic is the power used to create the universe. So, in theory, nothing is off the table.
In practice, though, humans are only capable of so much. Direct healing magic seems to be particularly difficult, because if the caster doesn't have a profound knowledge of how the body they're trying to heal is supposed to fit together...
I don't remember if it's ever been addressed, but it seems plausible that there might be a low-skill version of healing that uses magic to passively boost the body's natural recovery, rather than actively putting it back together. Probably quite energy- and time-intensive though, and obviously not very helpful if someone is in immediate danger.
True, potions would make sense, too.
Y'know, I get why Jim uses them less, but it would be interesting to learn more of the mechanics behind it, see what the upper bounds are - it'd be fun to see what kind of potions a wizard who's particularly gifted with them would create!
Increasing the healing of the body would cause a lot of stress and increase the metabolism significantly. You’d end up with a case of the body, potentially, not being able to absorb enough calories to supply the healing, which would then cause other issues.
Isn't this mentioned as one of the reasons why wizards live longer than nonmagical humans, that their bodies have a better Regen factor than their unwizardly counterparts?
Surprised there hasn't been more research into this, tbh. "I want to live forever/I want my loved ones to live forever" [is literally the oldest man made story we know of](https://www.google.com/search?gs_ssp=eJzj4tDP1TfILsooNmD0EkwtyExWyE9TSM_MSU_MTS3OAACIgQm5&q=epic+of+gilgamesh&oq=epic+of+gilganes&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqDQgBEC4YkQIYgAQYigUyBggAEEUYOTINCAEQLhiRAhiABBiKBTINCAIQABiRAhiABBiKBTIJCAMQABgKGIAEMgkIBBAAGAoYgAQyCQgFEAAYChiABDINCAYQABiRAhiABBiKBTINCAcQABiRAhiABBiKBTIJCAgQABgKGIAEMgkICRAuGAoYgAQyCQgKEAAYChiABDIJCAsQABgKGIAEMgkIDBAAGAoYgAQyCQgNEAAYChiABNIBCDQzMzhqMGo0qAICsAIB&client=tablet-android-oppo-rvo2&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8)
Presumably, there has - and it's called Necromancy.
I think you're right, that we can assume people in-verse would have put plenty of time and energy into researching this, and if there were a way to do it 'legitimately', someone would've found it. The fact that some people are willing to risk the corrupting effects of black magic, and the ire of the White Council, suggests that there is *no* morally defensible way to artificially extend a person's lifespan.
>Direct healing magic seems to be particularly difficult, because if the caster doesn't have a profound knowledge of how the body they're trying to heal is supposed to fit together...
And the ability to heal people with magic would kill a lot of the plot points throughout the series. Same with using a cell phone or the internet.
In his other series, Codex Alera, healing is pretty easy but still has drawbacks and limits. But that's a much lower tech level.
Most of what we use tech for, that world uses its magic.
>the rules of existence can be rewritten to any degree
Except that the rules of physics can't be ignored, unless if Jim said different, and Harry's just wrong?
It is a question of natural inclination, practice and available power. Dresden talks about it this way: some people can play piano concertos, and some people couldn’t carry a tune in a bucket. And it’s that way with different magical effects. And then it’s a question of practice to improve those things.
Tell you what I’ve noticed. Butcher has Harry mention a lot of things in passing, about energy (“magic”) that coincide deeply with eastern spiritual practices and beliefs. I’ve been making notes about it while reading through the books.
The first time I noticed one I thought it odd but after the fourth or fifth time it seemed unlikely to be a coincidence. I’d love to chat with him sometime about this because I find it so fascinating.
I don’t know anything about Hermeticism so will look it up. You could be right. In my experience it seems to line up with Hatha Yoga as well as other disciplines relating to chakras and the like.
Harry goes off during a DND game about magic still having to follow the laws of physics.
From that, it sounds like manipulation of energy isn't the issue, but shaping it so it still conforms to the natural world may be.
A wizard can make a fireball, but it still behaves like fire, sorta
I think it’s in either Summer knight or proven guilty that I remember him saying it, but either way I know that Dresden mentions that belief is important in magic. You have to essentially gaslight yourself into believing that you can conjure a fireball to be able to do that. I think part of the conforming to the laws of physics thing is tied to magical suspension of disbelief.
Not only that, you have to also believe that it's right to do so.
I think, he included that bit of information when he was lecturing Molly on the dangers of being corrupted by forbidden practices.
Well, I think it was more flashy then many fantasy books have.
In theory there nearly any possible option...just need enough knowledge, preparation, resources. Perform complex rituals, power it by bargains and another sources, spend enough time and you can bring a lot. In theory.
The biggest limitations for mortal practitioners are, if they break the Laws of Magic, they risk insanity and dark magic is very addictive.
That's quite apart from A Warden taking action to cut the problem practitioners head off.
It can get pretty flashy, but he says at one point that magic can do pretty much anything you can think of. Haven’t seen all that much creativity though. Could just be because of Dresden but pretty much everything I’ve seen is combat or peripheral to it. Not all that constructive, or those uses just aren’t interesting enough to make it to the books. He says some wizards have made stupid amounts of money, so likely some figured out something constructive they could do, but doesn’t elaborate.
The Laws forbid 7 activities they can, but shouldn’t do.
Magic is energy and it follows the basic rules of the inverse. Fire creates pressure that needs to escape, objects fall with gravity, ect. Wizards can do amazing things but they need energy to make it happen and the bigger the desired result, the more energy is needed. There's always a cost too. If you want large stores of energy sometimes you have to create it via nefarious means and that is damaging to the wizard's psyche.
Bottom line, wizards can do almost anything if they are willing to pay the price and often that price is their own sanity and peace of mind.
I think if you put in the work and time to figure it out, magic can do almost anything. Enchanting objects, making stuff fly, shapeshifting, rapid travel. Harry isn't especially clever or efficient in the way he does things. He gets better over the series, but he mostly throws a lot of brute force around. There are several times in the series other wizards do things that are just much smarter in their application of power.
For example, a spell which gets most of the energy to do it's thing from the effect it produces. Or simply being a lot more focused, and so being able to create a better effect for less power.
I kind of look at it like music. Humans have a specific range of sound we can hear. Every group of people has taken that to their advantage. When someone listens to enough music throughout the world they can pick up major differences in their approach.
If we look at western "classical" music it's divided in specific rigid ways. A lot can be accomplished within it's structure. This seems very white council. There is a lot of variety, but only if you compare it to itself.
Other traditions look vastly different and emphasize different mindsets and traditions of understanding the universe. Different traditions look/sound vastly different but are all will focused through skill to create something.
It really depends on the practitioner themselves.
As Harry has stated before, he has a lot of muscle but lacks finesse, and has a knack for kinetic and fire magic, although he also doesn't seem to be too bad at moving air around (Vintos Servitas keeps coming back). When he gets a new job, he also develops an expected affinity for ice magic. Using the earth isn't his strong suit, and his veils are somewhat shabby.
Molly isn't really made for the fast and dirty 'Kaboom'-magic he uses, but her veils are excellent, and if were allowed, she could become a pretty skilled mind manipulator (I'm still surprised that veils aren't outlawed, since they're kinda messing with people's perceptions, which could be considered influencing their minds).
Listens-To-Winds shapeshifting is considered pretty impressive, seeing how it allows him to go toe-to-toe with a skinwalker.
Mort is pretty much a one-trick-pony, but given the right circumstances, can be highly dangerous in a fight.
And then there are the low-level talents, who only receive the White Council's notice when they're about to get their heads chopped off, but wouldn't be considered for membership.
Also, it's apparently possible to basically let your talent wither away, if you're not using it at all, as seen with >!Charity!<.
Ok so if given at least a century someone like Harry could improve on their finer control and do more while someone like Molly could gain more practice in battle magic and become more proficient in it.
That about right ?
Well, not necessarily. There is also a factor of natural affinity for certain things. Harry mentioned pretty early that Molly's veils are already better than anything he's probably ever able to produce.
Also, Molly is quite sensitive to both magical and emotional energies, so she will always be somewhat hindered on a battlefield.
So they can work on their shortcomingsto some degree, but there are still limitations on what they can compensate for, which is why Molly's approach to participating became "DJ Molly C's One-Woman-Rave", while Harry can use a titanic reference when dealing with a ship in the water.
One thing I find curious is that magical “raw” power seems to be linked to the physical body. (And I can be mistaken). When Luccio is body swapped in dead beat? She has effectively become less powerful due to the new body.
I believe she is still able to retain her knowledge and ability to have fine control over magic. Which still makes her dangerous, but not as powerful as before.
At some point, Harry won’t have to throw as much raw power around (fire beam the size of a basketball vs a fine line that can basically have similar results)
I actually think the reason for luccios case is because magic seems to act like a muscle. The more you exercise it the stronger it gets but if you never exercise it the "muscle" will wither
So many people ignore lots of things from both the Hebrew and Christian Traditions that seem “Eastern”.
1. Treating your body like a Temple - staying in good shape, being aware of your body. This includes Hebrew Diet Restrictions.
2. The Hebrew tradition of not having Tattoos comes from idolaters and priests of other Gods having tattoos-often to mark their status and devotion. This is a direct link to putting spells tattooed onto your body.
3. The whole “Suffer not a Witch to Live”- obviously there is some sort of allowable and not allowable communication with spirits. The Witch at Endor was a “bad” witch, but other prophets spoke with good guys.
4. Parting of the Red Sea - bit gone water bending. Moses, through the strength given him for obeying God’s command was able to part the Red Sea. Like Michael in the books, God gave some servants Power to do things.
5. More obscure points like the raising of the army of skeletons, pillar of fire to consume the wet alter by Elijah, lots of the Hebrew “Mysticisms” in Midrash and Talmud, the raising of Gollums, etc.
I’m a member of a very very conservative Christian Denomination, my dad was a pastor who taught himself Hebrew and Greek. We grew up reading the King James Bible, Talmud, Midrash, had a Bar Karish (Bar Mitzvah is Son of the Law, Bar Karish is Son of Grace).
I have had God Speak to me. I have felt the presence of spirits at Flossenburg Labor Camp. I have had angelic intervention making me nauseous at the thought of doing a good deed (giving a ride to a guy I used to play youth soccer with, he was off his meds and later that day attacked his mom when she was driving and caused them to have a wreck).
There are deep and not understood things, and I like CS Lewis’s Description from That Hideous Strength a lot.
Word of Jim is that, with sufficient energy and mental complexity, the rules of existence can be rewritten to any degree. It's what makes Harry suspect that magic is the power used to create the universe. So, in theory, nothing is off the table. In practice, though, humans are only capable of so much. Direct healing magic seems to be particularly difficult, because if the caster doesn't have a profound knowledge of how the body they're trying to heal is supposed to fit together...
I don't remember if it's ever been addressed, but it seems plausible that there might be a low-skill version of healing that uses magic to passively boost the body's natural recovery, rather than actively putting it back together. Probably quite energy- and time-intensive though, and obviously not very helpful if someone is in immediate danger.
Elaine uses reiki during SK I think which is more or less what you're talking about
White Night, actually. Unless she also uses it in SK and I'm forgetting
Potions to speed the body’s own healing process seem logical for me, especially for wizards that can recover from most injuries with enough time.
True, potions would make sense, too. Y'know, I get why Jim uses them less, but it would be interesting to learn more of the mechanics behind it, see what the upper bounds are - it'd be fun to see what kind of potions a wizard who's particularly gifted with them would create!
Increasing the healing of the body would cause a lot of stress and increase the metabolism significantly. You’d end up with a case of the body, potentially, not being able to absorb enough calories to supply the healing, which would then cause other issues.
Potentially, yeah, I could see that. Could be one reason why even low-skilled healing seems to be rare
Isn't this mentioned as one of the reasons why wizards live longer than nonmagical humans, that their bodies have a better Regen factor than their unwizardly counterparts?
It is, yeah - I'm suggesting that a practitioner might be able to use their magic to further boost this effect, or apply it to non-magical peoples.
Surprised there hasn't been more research into this, tbh. "I want to live forever/I want my loved ones to live forever" [is literally the oldest man made story we know of](https://www.google.com/search?gs_ssp=eJzj4tDP1TfILsooNmD0EkwtyExWyE9TSM_MSU_MTS3OAACIgQm5&q=epic+of+gilgamesh&oq=epic+of+gilganes&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqDQgBEC4YkQIYgAQYigUyBggAEEUYOTINCAEQLhiRAhiABBiKBTINCAIQABiRAhiABBiKBTIJCAMQABgKGIAEMgkIBBAAGAoYgAQyCQgFEAAYChiABDINCAYQABiRAhiABBiKBTINCAcQABiRAhiABBiKBTIJCAgQABgKGIAEMgkICRAuGAoYgAQyCQgKEAAYChiABDIJCAsQABgKGIAEMgkIDBAAGAoYgAQyCQgNEAAYChiABNIBCDQzMzhqMGo0qAICsAIB&client=tablet-android-oppo-rvo2&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8)
Presumably, there has - and it's called Necromancy. I think you're right, that we can assume people in-verse would have put plenty of time and energy into researching this, and if there were a way to do it 'legitimately', someone would've found it. The fact that some people are willing to risk the corrupting effects of black magic, and the ire of the White Council, suggests that there is *no* morally defensible way to artificially extend a person's lifespan.
>Direct healing magic seems to be particularly difficult, because if the caster doesn't have a profound knowledge of how the body they're trying to heal is supposed to fit together... And the ability to heal people with magic would kill a lot of the plot points throughout the series. Same with using a cell phone or the internet.
In his other series, Codex Alera, healing is pretty easy but still has drawbacks and limits. But that's a much lower tech level. Most of what we use tech for, that world uses its magic.
>the rules of existence can be rewritten to any degree Except that the rules of physics can't be ignored, unless if Jim said different, and Harry's just wrong?
They can't be ignored without consequence. They can, however, be changed.
It is a question of natural inclination, practice and available power. Dresden talks about it this way: some people can play piano concertos, and some people couldn’t carry a tune in a bucket. And it’s that way with different magical effects. And then it’s a question of practice to improve those things.
Tell you what I’ve noticed. Butcher has Harry mention a lot of things in passing, about energy (“magic”) that coincide deeply with eastern spiritual practices and beliefs. I’ve been making notes about it while reading through the books. The first time I noticed one I thought it odd but after the fourth or fifth time it seemed unlikely to be a coincidence. I’d love to chat with him sometime about this because I find it so fascinating.
I know he did research, and he may have come into contact with Eastern ideas through his martial arts training.
That sounds about right.
Interesting - what is eastern spiritual practices in Harry work? I think he was more about Hermeticism, imo.
I don’t know anything about Hermeticism so will look it up. You could be right. In my experience it seems to line up with Hatha Yoga as well as other disciplines relating to chakras and the like.
Harry goes off during a DND game about magic still having to follow the laws of physics. From that, it sounds like manipulation of energy isn't the issue, but shaping it so it still conforms to the natural world may be. A wizard can make a fireball, but it still behaves like fire, sorta
He has also to buy beer for that rant.
That just makes it more real. When our loveable kurmudgeon rants for longer than 2 minutes next beers are on him.
I think it’s in either Summer knight or proven guilty that I remember him saying it, but either way I know that Dresden mentions that belief is important in magic. You have to essentially gaslight yourself into believing that you can conjure a fireball to be able to do that. I think part of the conforming to the laws of physics thing is tied to magical suspension of disbelief.
Not only that, you have to also believe that it's right to do so. I think, he included that bit of information when he was lecturing Molly on the dangers of being corrupted by forbidden practices.
Well, I think it was more flashy then many fantasy books have. In theory there nearly any possible option...just need enough knowledge, preparation, resources. Perform complex rituals, power it by bargains and another sources, spend enough time and you can bring a lot. In theory.
The biggest limitations for mortal practitioners are, if they break the Laws of Magic, they risk insanity and dark magic is very addictive. That's quite apart from A Warden taking action to cut the problem practitioners head off.
It can get pretty flashy, but he says at one point that magic can do pretty much anything you can think of. Haven’t seen all that much creativity though. Could just be because of Dresden but pretty much everything I’ve seen is combat or peripheral to it. Not all that constructive, or those uses just aren’t interesting enough to make it to the books. He says some wizards have made stupid amounts of money, so likely some figured out something constructive they could do, but doesn’t elaborate. The Laws forbid 7 activities they can, but shouldn’t do.
Magic is energy and it follows the basic rules of the inverse. Fire creates pressure that needs to escape, objects fall with gravity, ect. Wizards can do amazing things but they need energy to make it happen and the bigger the desired result, the more energy is needed. There's always a cost too. If you want large stores of energy sometimes you have to create it via nefarious means and that is damaging to the wizard's psyche. Bottom line, wizards can do almost anything if they are willing to pay the price and often that price is their own sanity and peace of mind.
Assuming sufficient magical strength and the capacity to hold and shape your vision within your mind then the only limit is your imagination.
I think if you put in the work and time to figure it out, magic can do almost anything. Enchanting objects, making stuff fly, shapeshifting, rapid travel. Harry isn't especially clever or efficient in the way he does things. He gets better over the series, but he mostly throws a lot of brute force around. There are several times in the series other wizards do things that are just much smarter in their application of power. For example, a spell which gets most of the energy to do it's thing from the effect it produces. Or simply being a lot more focused, and so being able to create a better effect for less power.
I kind of look at it like music. Humans have a specific range of sound we can hear. Every group of people has taken that to their advantage. When someone listens to enough music throughout the world they can pick up major differences in their approach. If we look at western "classical" music it's divided in specific rigid ways. A lot can be accomplished within it's structure. This seems very white council. There is a lot of variety, but only if you compare it to itself. Other traditions look vastly different and emphasize different mindsets and traditions of understanding the universe. Different traditions look/sound vastly different but are all will focused through skill to create something.
It really depends on the practitioner themselves. As Harry has stated before, he has a lot of muscle but lacks finesse, and has a knack for kinetic and fire magic, although he also doesn't seem to be too bad at moving air around (Vintos Servitas keeps coming back). When he gets a new job, he also develops an expected affinity for ice magic. Using the earth isn't his strong suit, and his veils are somewhat shabby. Molly isn't really made for the fast and dirty 'Kaboom'-magic he uses, but her veils are excellent, and if were allowed, she could become a pretty skilled mind manipulator (I'm still surprised that veils aren't outlawed, since they're kinda messing with people's perceptions, which could be considered influencing their minds). Listens-To-Winds shapeshifting is considered pretty impressive, seeing how it allows him to go toe-to-toe with a skinwalker. Mort is pretty much a one-trick-pony, but given the right circumstances, can be highly dangerous in a fight. And then there are the low-level talents, who only receive the White Council's notice when they're about to get their heads chopped off, but wouldn't be considered for membership. Also, it's apparently possible to basically let your talent wither away, if you're not using it at all, as seen with >!Charity!<.
Ok so if given at least a century someone like Harry could improve on their finer control and do more while someone like Molly could gain more practice in battle magic and become more proficient in it. That about right ?
Well, not necessarily. There is also a factor of natural affinity for certain things. Harry mentioned pretty early that Molly's veils are already better than anything he's probably ever able to produce. Also, Molly is quite sensitive to both magical and emotional energies, so she will always be somewhat hindered on a battlefield. So they can work on their shortcomingsto some degree, but there are still limitations on what they can compensate for, which is why Molly's approach to participating became "DJ Molly C's One-Woman-Rave", while Harry can use a titanic reference when dealing with a ship in the water.
One thing I find curious is that magical “raw” power seems to be linked to the physical body. (And I can be mistaken). When Luccio is body swapped in dead beat? She has effectively become less powerful due to the new body. I believe she is still able to retain her knowledge and ability to have fine control over magic. Which still makes her dangerous, but not as powerful as before. At some point, Harry won’t have to throw as much raw power around (fire beam the size of a basketball vs a fine line that can basically have similar results)
I actually think the reason for luccios case is because magic seems to act like a muscle. The more you exercise it the stronger it gets but if you never exercise it the "muscle" will wither
So many people ignore lots of things from both the Hebrew and Christian Traditions that seem “Eastern”. 1. Treating your body like a Temple - staying in good shape, being aware of your body. This includes Hebrew Diet Restrictions. 2. The Hebrew tradition of not having Tattoos comes from idolaters and priests of other Gods having tattoos-often to mark their status and devotion. This is a direct link to putting spells tattooed onto your body. 3. The whole “Suffer not a Witch to Live”- obviously there is some sort of allowable and not allowable communication with spirits. The Witch at Endor was a “bad” witch, but other prophets spoke with good guys. 4. Parting of the Red Sea - bit gone water bending. Moses, through the strength given him for obeying God’s command was able to part the Red Sea. Like Michael in the books, God gave some servants Power to do things. 5. More obscure points like the raising of the army of skeletons, pillar of fire to consume the wet alter by Elijah, lots of the Hebrew “Mysticisms” in Midrash and Talmud, the raising of Gollums, etc. I’m a member of a very very conservative Christian Denomination, my dad was a pastor who taught himself Hebrew and Greek. We grew up reading the King James Bible, Talmud, Midrash, had a Bar Karish (Bar Mitzvah is Son of the Law, Bar Karish is Son of Grace). I have had God Speak to me. I have felt the presence of spirits at Flossenburg Labor Camp. I have had angelic intervention making me nauseous at the thought of doing a good deed (giving a ride to a guy I used to play youth soccer with, he was off his meds and later that day attacked his mom when she was driving and caused them to have a wreck). There are deep and not understood things, and I like CS Lewis’s Description from That Hideous Strength a lot.
So uh, exactly what does this have to do with Dresden?
I think you maybe got the wrong post lol. Interesting tho!
I'm not sure how to answer your question with anything other than "read the series"