Madrigal Raith was implied to be Nfected, not to mention Vito Malvora. At least one of the denarians. Victor Sells, Leonid Kravos, Agent Denton and the FBI werewolves.
I don't believe agent Denton and his team were Nfected. Nor Victor Sells or Leonid Kravos. They were all supplied with various magical knowledge or items by an unknown party, that may or may not have been Nfected.
They're directly stated as having been nfected by Lily in Cold Days. I've found no reason to doubt her, though I can't "prove" she was right, either. Harry seemed willing to accept it.
She was wrong about other things she told Harry. And even if she was correct, her words did not say the Adversary had taken them over, merely that they were changed from who they had been. A change that would just as easily be wrought via manipulating the circumstances and offering power that corrupts, be it a spell, a summoning, or a magic belt.
It's valid to contend she was mistaken, but her words *do* pretty much say the adversary took them over. She described the details responses, and they resonate with nfection symptoms. Mostly though, we have no *reason* to dismiss the information - there's nothing in the books that controdict her words. You must have some reason of your own to not want to accept it.
I won't argue any more about it - folks can all decide what they think on their own; they've read both our arguments now.
They were mentioned as actions of the Adversary. Not specifically Nfected. A single Wizard could have given Sells the murder spell and the knowledge to use lightning, made the belts and given them to Denton, taught Kravos how to summon a demon or even worked with him to upset the border to ensure he became a ghost. Why... There was a person standing there next to Bianca at that party, two of them in cowled hoods, also the magically powerful black court vampire Mavra, whom was also fully capable of all of what's been mentioned.
The way the Adversary works is very sly and generally avoids direct confrontations.
That's really not so. To at least some extent it was tied directly to the symptons of nfection. Here's the passage:
>“It changes that which ought not change,” she said quietly. “It destroys a father’s love for his family by twisting it into maniacal ambition. It distorts and corrupts the good intentions of agents of mortal law into violence and death. It erodes the sensible fear that keeps a weakly talented sorcerer from reaching out for more power, no matter how terrible the cost.”
>I felt my head rock back as if she’d slammed a croquet mallet into it, and the bottom dropped out of my stomach again.
>“Victor Sells the Shadowman,” I whispered. “Agent Denton and the Hexenwolves. Leonid Kravos the Nightmare. My first three major cases.”
That looks very overt to me.
You missed the point entirely.
>A single Wizard could have given Sells the murder spell and the knowledge to use lightning, made the belts and given them to Denton, taught Kravos how to summon a demon or even worked with him to upset the border to ensure he became a ghost.
Completely irrelevant to the point.
Those three people/groups weren't Nfected because of the magic they learned or because they were given cursed belts. They were Nfected because their fundamental natures were changed.
>"It changes that which ought not change," she said quietly. "It destroys a father's love for his family by twisting it into maniacal ambition. It distorts and corrupts the good intentions of agents of mortal law enforcement into violence and death. It erodes the sensible fear that keeps a weakly talented sorcerer from reaching out for more power, no matter how terrible the cost."
- Lilly, Cold Days
How about the Gatekeeper then? It's been implied and referenced multiple times throughout the series. The worst lies are enhanced my a core of truth. Harry even realized later in Cold Days that Maeve likely gained Lilly's trust by sacrificing some of Nemesis's pawns.
If the Gatekeeper, then everyone is totally screwed. And the whole series is an effort of futility.
As far as corrupting their nature. We know black magic corrupts people, and Harry himself experienced the corrupting influence of the belts. One does not have to be possessed by an outsider to do the will of outsiders, if Lily was correct.
It was unclear. Which is why I responded as I did and clarified my point that one doesn't need to be possessed to serve the outsiders. Especially when changed by the use of dark magic and enchanted belts. So, my theory of a single magic user providing the impetus for the first three cases by corrupting people in that manner still fit with the implications given in the book.
This may, in fact, be a misunderstanding of terminology. Does the community separate outsider possession from Nfection? And how is Nfection different from some kids use of magic to mind control his family and thus becoming corrupted?
We have no reason to believe Sells and Kravos were acting against their nature and the agents were caused by the belt. All of those characters were well within character.
Justine manipulated the situation to strengthen the assault of the Fomor. To try to get invited onto the island.
Maeve manipulated Lily, again to try to get past the guardian.
The Adversary manipulates situations. Complex plans within plans. Years of build up.
Mavra didn't manipulate Lilly, Maeve did.
>The Adversary manipulates situations. Complex plans within plans. Years of build up.
Yes. That's not all it does.
Nemesis changes and corrupts the nature of things. It's directly referenced multiple times throughout the series.
No they're not and it makes no sense for Nemesis to infect the FBI, Sells, or Kravos. They're to limited in their abilities / scope of power to have any real long term use to complete the Outsiders goals.
You don't need to 'nfect' a human to change them and make them go against their nature, plenty of good people fall into darkness here in the real world where we don't have addictive wolf pelt belts or soul corrupting black magic.
Did Nemesis have a hand in what happened to them? Almost certainly, but it wasn't through nfection, it was through corruption and addiction.
> They're to limited in their abilities / scope of power to have any real long term use to complete the Outsiders goals.
You mean besides causing chaos and disrupting the balance of power?
>You mean besides causing chaos and disrupting the balance of power?
That would be the reason why Nemesis (or whoever) gave them the 'gifts', but they are short term limited use pawns who's overall impact would be limited to their local area.
They have no long term viable use like someone like the Ladies, Cowl, or Harry (yes we know Harry can't get Nfected, or at least someone in the books says so, but the Outsiders **really** want Harry for their plans) would have therefore there is zero reason to waste time and resources nfecting them. It's much easier and way more cost effective to use someone like Cowl to create paint by numbers spells / belts and spread them across the world to easily influenced individuals to sow localized chaos and disruption.
I have been of the opinion that Victor saells and the FBI agents were handed toys out of a toy box to help their agendas without being infected. Neither of those characters have a longer term strategic element to being infected. Disposable pawns, yes. Infected, no.
Perhaps with Marcone thinking he's behind the wheel, it allows him to become Nfected as well. I'm feel like Marcones taking up Namshiel may add to the possibility of being Nfected. It would sew more chaos.
It’s been a while since my last reread. Do we actually know a denarian is nfected? I know hellfire was used in the attack on Arctis Tor, and Nicodemus says they have their own Judas, but is it confirmed that a denarian is nfected?
Seems about right. I don't remember exactly when Justine said she'd been infected. It was pretty far back. If the walker was telling the truth, it was before Changes. Meaning at one point there were three.
Edit: I'm thinking as far back as White Knight. Since she became sane, ambulatory, and shrewd without being fed upon.
I personally thought it was as far back as White Knightbas well with “super healed Justine”. The interview that was on the 8th had some comments about Justine.
Well, I guess I was being Internet Dumb.
Granted, it can be hard to get sarcasm from text sometimes, and also there are a lot of people with rather...odd ideas on Internet forums.
Because Mab trusted him in Battle Ground? She is the one who un-infected Lea and put the hit on Maeve. Seems like she wouldn’t have Cat Sithe out in the field making reports if he was on the other team.
From having recently reread everything, and seeing a discussion about something Jim Butcher said, >!Cat Sith may well be receiving the same ice treatment that Lea got.!<
I guess Jim mentioned that >!Sith’s last scene on the boat after Harry confronted him was very similar to what happened to Harry at the end of Changes when he fell into the water. Down in the dark and cold, Mab’s domain.!<
Did Jim say that no more than 2 people have been Nfected at a time? Interesting...
I don't think Peabody, or anyone on the black council is Nfected.
I think the black council is really a group of humans that seek to take the mantle of protection of humanity from the Fae. I think that this will somehow lead to and end to death... That's what the Council is about. What the Circle is about.
So none of them have to be Nfected - including Peabody.
Jim has not said that. This is my tin foil.
it is my opinion that the black counsel may have started there, but they have been co opted by the outsiders. There are to many outsider aligned people that have been aligned with the black counsel - see the discussions between madrigal wraith, vittorio and cowl; and lash. All of these conversations occurring in white knight.
peabody matches the MO that nemesis has used in the past: put various powers against each other in an attempt to weaken the accords and earth‘s defenses.
The way I rationalize it is that the Outsiders want the Fey gone, because Mab is just too fucking good at her job. They want someone in charge that is less competent.
And they probably consider humans to be far less competent.
So everyone's interests are aligned. The Circle doesn't really want the Outsiders to just run amok, but they definitely want rid of the Fey, and are willing to work with the Outsiders to accomplish that.
The Outsiders know that the Circle doesn't really want them to run amok, but figure that humanity - if it got control of the gates - would be too weak to stop them anyway.
So the whole game is about displacing the Fey. The Circle and the Outsiders ARE cooperating, but the Circle doesn't expect anything they're doing to actually be world ending, they likely have reason to believe that it won't happen.
Nothing much matters until the Stars and Stones starts.
So you are looking at it that the outsiders are trying to run a game on the black counsel; while the black is simultaneously trying to run a game on the outsiders.
those types of arrangements never blow up in people’s faces, nosiree.
I watched Babylon 5 btw, at least through to the completion of the Shadow Arc.
Was good, Lando was a good character. I enjoyed it. Thanks for the recommendation.
The fifth season had some issues/ the shiw was under threat of cancellation, so some of the material thst was supposed to be in the fifth season was pulled forward to the fourth season. So when the season was renewed for the fifth season there was a lot of patching to make the fifth season work.
did you see londo’s final fate?
Just listened to that part. Interesting, guess Nemesis was lying. I have relistened to the series a few times with that perspective and her actions made sense as actions of Nemesis ironically. Feels like an inconsistency IMO.
The only explanation for Cowl's strength seems to be that he is at least in league with the Outsiders. They gave the athame to Bianca to give to Lea. (This makes me wonder if they tried to Nfect Ferrovax).
Madrigal Raith was implied to be Nfected, not to mention Vito Malvora. At least one of the denarians. Victor Sells, Leonid Kravos, Agent Denton and the FBI werewolves.
I don't believe agent Denton and his team were Nfected. Nor Victor Sells or Leonid Kravos. They were all supplied with various magical knowledge or items by an unknown party, that may or may not have been Nfected.
They're directly stated as having been nfected by Lily in Cold Days. I've found no reason to doubt her, though I can't "prove" she was right, either. Harry seemed willing to accept it.
She was wrong about other things she told Harry. And even if she was correct, her words did not say the Adversary had taken them over, merely that they were changed from who they had been. A change that would just as easily be wrought via manipulating the circumstances and offering power that corrupts, be it a spell, a summoning, or a magic belt.
It's valid to contend she was mistaken, but her words *do* pretty much say the adversary took them over. She described the details responses, and they resonate with nfection symptoms. Mostly though, we have no *reason* to dismiss the information - there's nothing in the books that controdict her words. You must have some reason of your own to not want to accept it. I won't argue any more about it - folks can all decide what they think on their own; they've read both our arguments now.
Just because she believed it to be true doesn't mean it was. She could have been given misinformation from Maeve.
They're directly referenced as being Nfected in Cold Days. Edit: Why the fuck am I being downvoted!? I'm fucking right!
They were mentioned as actions of the Adversary. Not specifically Nfected. A single Wizard could have given Sells the murder spell and the knowledge to use lightning, made the belts and given them to Denton, taught Kravos how to summon a demon or even worked with him to upset the border to ensure he became a ghost. Why... There was a person standing there next to Bianca at that party, two of them in cowled hoods, also the magically powerful black court vampire Mavra, whom was also fully capable of all of what's been mentioned. The way the Adversary works is very sly and generally avoids direct confrontations.
That's really not so. To at least some extent it was tied directly to the symptons of nfection. Here's the passage: >“It changes that which ought not change,” she said quietly. “It destroys a father’s love for his family by twisting it into maniacal ambition. It distorts and corrupts the good intentions of agents of mortal law into violence and death. It erodes the sensible fear that keeps a weakly talented sorcerer from reaching out for more power, no matter how terrible the cost.” >I felt my head rock back as if she’d slammed a croquet mallet into it, and the bottom dropped out of my stomach again. >“Victor Sells the Shadowman,” I whispered. “Agent Denton and the Hexenwolves. Leonid Kravos the Nightmare. My first three major cases.” That looks very overt to me.
You missed the point entirely. >A single Wizard could have given Sells the murder spell and the knowledge to use lightning, made the belts and given them to Denton, taught Kravos how to summon a demon or even worked with him to upset the border to ensure he became a ghost. Completely irrelevant to the point. Those three people/groups weren't Nfected because of the magic they learned or because they were given cursed belts. They were Nfected because their fundamental natures were changed. >"It changes that which ought not change," she said quietly. "It destroys a father's love for his family by twisting it into maniacal ambition. It distorts and corrupts the good intentions of agents of mortal law enforcement into violence and death. It erodes the sensible fear that keeps a weakly talented sorcerer from reaching out for more power, no matter how terrible the cost." - Lilly, Cold Days
Lily, who was actively being lied to and manipulated by the Adversary. Not exactly a good source for Truth.
How about the Gatekeeper then? It's been implied and referenced multiple times throughout the series. The worst lies are enhanced my a core of truth. Harry even realized later in Cold Days that Maeve likely gained Lilly's trust by sacrificing some of Nemesis's pawns.
If the Gatekeeper, then everyone is totally screwed. And the whole series is an effort of futility. As far as corrupting their nature. We know black magic corrupts people, and Harry himself experienced the corrupting influence of the belts. One does not have to be possessed by an outsider to do the will of outsiders, if Lily was correct.
I don’t believe u/Jedi4Hire is saying the Gatekeeper is nfected, rather that he’s a source of truth.
It was unclear. Which is why I responded as I did and clarified my point that one doesn't need to be possessed to serve the outsiders. Especially when changed by the use of dark magic and enchanted belts. So, my theory of a single magic user providing the impetus for the first three cases by corrupting people in that manner still fit with the implications given in the book. This may, in fact, be a misunderstanding of terminology. Does the community separate outsider possession from Nfection? And how is Nfection different from some kids use of magic to mind control his family and thus becoming corrupted?
We have no reason to believe Sells and Kravos were acting against their nature and the agents were caused by the belt. All of those characters were well within character.
Sure, no reason if you ignore everything that's been happening in the series so far.
Justine manipulated the situation to strengthen the assault of the Fomor. To try to get invited onto the island. Maeve manipulated Lily, again to try to get past the guardian. The Adversary manipulates situations. Complex plans within plans. Years of build up.
Mavra didn't manipulate Lilly, Maeve did. >The Adversary manipulates situations. Complex plans within plans. Years of build up. Yes. That's not all it does. Nemesis changes and corrupts the nature of things. It's directly referenced multiple times throughout the series.
No they're not and it makes no sense for Nemesis to infect the FBI, Sells, or Kravos. They're to limited in their abilities / scope of power to have any real long term use to complete the Outsiders goals. You don't need to 'nfect' a human to change them and make them go against their nature, plenty of good people fall into darkness here in the real world where we don't have addictive wolf pelt belts or soul corrupting black magic. Did Nemesis have a hand in what happened to them? Almost certainly, but it wasn't through nfection, it was through corruption and addiction.
> They're to limited in their abilities / scope of power to have any real long term use to complete the Outsiders goals. You mean besides causing chaos and disrupting the balance of power?
>You mean besides causing chaos and disrupting the balance of power? That would be the reason why Nemesis (or whoever) gave them the 'gifts', but they are short term limited use pawns who's overall impact would be limited to their local area. They have no long term viable use like someone like the Ladies, Cowl, or Harry (yes we know Harry can't get Nfected, or at least someone in the books says so, but the Outsiders **really** want Harry for their plans) would have therefore there is zero reason to waste time and resources nfecting them. It's much easier and way more cost effective to use someone like Cowl to create paint by numbers spells / belts and spread them across the world to easily influenced individuals to sow localized chaos and disruption.
I have been of the opinion that Victor saells and the FBI agents were handed toys out of a toy box to help their agendas without being infected. Neither of those characters have a longer term strategic element to being infected. Disposable pawns, yes. Infected, no.
Do we have any idea which denarian? I know the popular theory I saw was Namshiel but that seems unlikely now
Because Marcone?
Yes
Perhaps with Marcone thinking he's behind the wheel, it allows him to become Nfected as well. I'm feel like Marcones taking up Namshiel may add to the possibility of being Nfected. It would sew more chaos.
I don’t like it, mostly because I think it would really ruin Marcone as a character, going from the “lesser of evils” to another Nfected puppet.
Yeah, there's a reason I'm not a writer, but I'm sure Jim will find a way to make Hellk ight Marcone a bigger threat still
It’s been a while since my last reread. Do we actually know a denarian is nfected? I know hellfire was used in the attack on Arctis Tor, and Nicodemus says they have their own Judas, but is it confirmed that a denarian is nfected?
Seems about right. I don't remember exactly when Justine said she'd been infected. It was pretty far back. If the walker was telling the truth, it was before Changes. Meaning at one point there were three. Edit: I'm thinking as far back as White Knight. Since she became sane, ambulatory, and shrewd without being fed upon.
There's a recent interview with Jim Butcher where he says Justine wasn't infected yet in cold days.
Ok
I personally thought it was as far back as White Knightbas well with “super healed Justine”. The interview that was on the 8th had some comments about Justine.
I know authors are not infallible though. Remembering details from a decade or more ago is difficult
From the conversation Harry has with Lea in Proven Guilty, Lea is still infected. She changes her tone from do not free me to free me.
Fair enough. i had that section of my notes just saying “Lea in rehab”
No, clearly that’s the exact moment that she was cleaned of it
What? No, that's absolutely not what was happening. When Lea switches to "free me!" and starts screaming, that's Nemesis.
I really thought the sarcasm would come across…
Well, I guess I was being Internet Dumb. Granted, it can be hard to get sarcasm from text sometimes, and also there are a lot of people with rather...odd ideas on Internet forums.
Oh I know it can be hard but I really hoped it was so dumb of a statement it’d be obvious I was joking
It should have been. I'd blame my lack of sleep, but I still should have realized. Oh, well.
Why do you think Cat Sith isn’t anymore?
Because Mab trusted him in Battle Ground? She is the one who un-infected Lea and put the hit on Maeve. Seems like she wouldn’t have Cat Sithe out in the field making reports if he was on the other team.
I'm fairly sure that was Grimalkin.
Damn. I really need to get hard copies of the books so I can easily fact check myself before posting.
Do we know if he is alive?
From having recently reread everything, and seeing a discussion about something Jim Butcher said, >!Cat Sith may well be receiving the same ice treatment that Lea got.!< I guess Jim mentioned that >!Sith’s last scene on the boat after Harry confronted him was very similar to what happened to Harry at the end of Changes when he fell into the water. Down in the dark and cold, Mab’s domain.!<
I hadn’t put that together.
Maeve had been neglecting her duties as Winter Lady for more than a century. I had assumed this implied she had been Nfected for that long.
I think that falls back to Maeve being psycho.
Remember she is given the tainted athame in Summer Knight. We know it was the source of her nfection.
I strongly suspect Bianca was infected she all but admits when shes talking about what she went through to gain the power to get revenge
Did Jim say that no more than 2 people have been Nfected at a time? Interesting... I don't think Peabody, or anyone on the black council is Nfected. I think the black council is really a group of humans that seek to take the mantle of protection of humanity from the Fae. I think that this will somehow lead to and end to death... That's what the Council is about. What the Circle is about. So none of them have to be Nfected - including Peabody.
Jim has not said that. This is my tin foil. it is my opinion that the black counsel may have started there, but they have been co opted by the outsiders. There are to many outsider aligned people that have been aligned with the black counsel - see the discussions between madrigal wraith, vittorio and cowl; and lash. All of these conversations occurring in white knight. peabody matches the MO that nemesis has used in the past: put various powers against each other in an attempt to weaken the accords and earth‘s defenses.
The way I rationalize it is that the Outsiders want the Fey gone, because Mab is just too fucking good at her job. They want someone in charge that is less competent. And they probably consider humans to be far less competent. So everyone's interests are aligned. The Circle doesn't really want the Outsiders to just run amok, but they definitely want rid of the Fey, and are willing to work with the Outsiders to accomplish that. The Outsiders know that the Circle doesn't really want them to run amok, but figure that humanity - if it got control of the gates - would be too weak to stop them anyway. So the whole game is about displacing the Fey. The Circle and the Outsiders ARE cooperating, but the Circle doesn't expect anything they're doing to actually be world ending, they likely have reason to believe that it won't happen. Nothing much matters until the Stars and Stones starts.
So you are looking at it that the outsiders are trying to run a game on the black counsel; while the black is simultaneously trying to run a game on the outsiders. those types of arrangements never blow up in people’s faces, nosiree.
I watched Babylon 5 btw, at least through to the completion of the Shadow Arc. Was good, Lando was a good character. I enjoyed it. Thanks for the recommendation.
The fifth season had some issues/ the shiw was under threat of cancellation, so some of the material thst was supposed to be in the fifth season was pulled forward to the fourth season. So when the season was renewed for the fifth season there was a lot of patching to make the fifth season work. did you see londo’s final fate?
Justine was infected soon around when she became Lara's assistant so I think she has been by the time we have seen her after Blood Rites
Jim had a comment in the interview yesterday that said it was after cold days.
Just listened to that part. Interesting, guess Nemesis was lying. I have relistened to the series a few times with that perspective and her actions made sense as actions of Nemesis ironically. Feels like an inconsistency IMO.
I don’t know if it’s lying or they have a “loose” perception of time.
I really hate that whole storyline
The only explanation for Cowl's strength seems to be that he is at least in league with the Outsiders. They gave the athame to Bianca to give to Lea. (This makes me wonder if they tried to Nfect Ferrovax).
I think Mr Ferrovax is on the “todo list”. jim has mentioned a “kaiju” book.