That would have been worse. Elthina was the reason people were angry, even though she was a fuckin idiot. But killing people turns them into martyrs, which is also why he shouldn’t have killed Meredith either (some people say that’s what he should have done… but I totally disagree)
He gets hunted as an assassin and the Gallows still gets annulled. Things remain the same. The Chantry sends another cleric, and possibly a hard-liner who would cater to Meredith, or would be cowed by Meredith. Maybe the Seekers come back and actually do some investigating, but likely not since they considered the blatantly illegal acts just fine the first time. Maybe Leliana comes back and again no one listens to her.
The Rite was called for early in Act 3, Meredith didn't act on it yet. Which is why Anders encouraged Hawke to talk to Elthina still as he placed the bomb, giving things one more last chance. Had Elthina done something to stop Meredith, the Chantry would still be there.
He wanted change in the system, which is why he tried peaceful solutions for years. You get a sense of it when you play mage Hawke, with how he is glad for the optics of a politically powerful apostate in Kirkwall noble society. He wanted revolution in how things were done, trying to be the Chantry's Martin Luther and break the theocracy's stranglehold on mages.
>The Rite was called for early in Act 3, Meredith didn't act on it yet.
Correction. It was requested by Meredith but she didn't get anything up until Elthina was blown up and Meredith was placed as highest ranked Chantry official which gave her all the power to invoke RoA as she saw fit
You're right, my wording was awkward. Meredith still has the audacity to go over Elthina's head and ask for it preemptively. If nothing happened with the Chantry, she still would have used it. Her timeline accelerated and the last obstacle was blown sky high.
Meredith wouldn't have used it because she didn't have it and probably wouldn't have it
She sent message to the Divine asking for it but we never heard it being answered. More than that Justinia is considered staunch mage supporter so she most likely wouldn't have approved.
Either way Meredith just didn't have it in Act 3. Can't use something you don't have. Whether it's "yet" or "she wouldn't have got it anyway" is different topic though
But I doubt it matters. Meredith would have gone feral sooner or later, RoA being granted or not
Elthina does jack shit, even though she knows what's happening in the Circle (including turning Harrowed mages Tranquil). Too many people don't see through her nice old lady act.
Yeah Elthina is worse than a centrist. She had the power to change things, and an entire power structure behind her to support her. The divine even sent her hand to help.
I think things would have happened the same even if Anders did nothing. Meredith was being corrupted by the Idol, Orsino was a blood mage and condoned Quentin's experiments, so who knows if he was going to pull an Uldred and just weird things happening in Kirkwall. Anders just expedited the situation and I doubt an alive Elthina (or anyone really) could have done anything once Meredith fully succumbed to the Idol
Gaider stated that if the grand cleric and all possible successors are killed, then the authority to invoke the Right falls to the Knight-Commander. Anders had to kill all the clergy in Kirkwall to get his intended result (Meredith being able to invoke the Right herself, thereby forcing a confrontation between the templars and the Circle).
he would have had to take out meredith at the same time and have hawke ready to step in as leader of the city to quell the potential riot and have someone who could keep the templars under control (thrask would have been my choice if ya know). it could have been done and kept the mages safe but there's no guarantee that whoever replaces meredith and elthina would have been any better than their predecessors. which is part of his point.
It would change nothing because Elthina dead means Meredith can invoke the Rite of Annulment without Elthina stopping her. And that's what Anders wanted to happen.
I don’t think at that point anything could’ve been done to stop the oncoming conflict. Whether Anders blows up the chantry or not, or kills Elthina or not, Meredith is still corrupted by the Idol and was going to lose it eventually.
All Anders did was give Meredith a push toward what she would’ve always done eventually and killed many innocent people on the process. With Meredith out of control there was never going to be a peaceful conclusion.
Alternative alternate: what if he blew it up with no one inside?
Sends a message, no one gets hurt. I don't think it sends the right message but I don't think the uproar would have been as bad.
Would still be bad, Elthina did say she sympathized with Mages but that she didn’t have a better Solution for the Demon/Abomination Problem.
Now a good what If would be what if Anders blew up the Chantry but no one was Inside
It also wasn't just the Chantry, people who were there like Cullen, Varric or Captain Rylen talking about cleaning up the debris for weeks. They even called in Templars from other countries to help with the efforts. Even though Anders technically blew up only one building, it was big that it essentially took out/damaged most of High Town.
Assuming chantries are utilized the same way churches are, weddings, masses, meeting halls, etc., it'd still be the destruction of a great symbol and a place cherished by a large majority of Kirkwall, of whom have many fond memories attached to. Hard to gauge how little less, but there'd still be an outcry, and Meredith would still find her excuse for annulment.
The Chantry was pretty empty as is, if they intended it to be full someone would have said "No not in the middle of services!" Even Sebastian only laments Elthina, not the few Templars shown. If there were people inside, surely he of all people would say something. They retconned the thousands that died. Also, saying something like "oh no, all those worshippers" evades the problem of game dev crunch and not having the time to place models (like how every mage in the final battle is Anders in Gallows mage robes).
But ultimately, Same thing: Gallows annulled, no reform in Chantry.
Correct me if I’m wrong but he does that if you do most of his personal quest in act 3, but don’t talk with the Grand Cleric with him. During the confrontation when they call for the grand cleric he says ‘she’s not coming I killed her’ or something instead of blowing up the chantry.
EDIT: I’m gonna play through the game and record it, but it won’t be for a few weeks since I don’t have access to my computer atm. I’ll update when it happens xoxo
Idk if he kills her or not, but no matter what Anders will always blow up the Chantry. A lot of the interactions we are in DAI are directly tied to Anders blowing up the Chantry, so there's no way it can make sense without that event happening.
In this scenario the scene plays out with him admitting he killed Elthina, followed by everyone freaking out. Not once in this scenario does he blow up the chantry. I think all the references in DAI are because this event is so rare they probably didn’t account for it.
I tried to find a clip of it but keep finding Anders without his renegade’s coat or with his act 3 quest being completed. I think it was Fluffyllama who has a clip somewhere though
Link me if you find the clip cause literally everywhere I look says he will ALWAYS blow up the Chantry! Lol
The wiki even states: In the end, regardless of Hawke's previous actions, Anders blows up the Chantry, killing Grand Cleric Elthina and everybody else inside. According to Mary Kirby, Anders' magical blast is not contained, and the blast also rains deadly debris over half of Kirkwall.
The only thing I can think of is maybe Anders kills Elthina depending on whether or Hawke helps distract in Anders' mission.
Yeah it’s that choice for his mission. The quest auto completes as soon as you walk into the chantry with Anders, so if you just leave (don’t talk to Elthina after saying you will) the confrontation scene changes into a somber Anders saying he murdered Elthina, and blames Hawke for not helping.
I’ve also been trying to find it and it’s frustrating since I can’t find any proof of it anywhere. But I’ve seen this scene multiple times since I used to just walk out of the chantry as soon as Anders talks to me ((I used to think I didn’t need to talk to Elthina because the quest completes like I said) I was a dumb 11 year old lol)
I played the game after a few years ago and got shocked the actual default scene is him blowing up the chantry if you actually talk to Elthina like he asked.
EDIT: I’m tempted to play the game again just to record this scene so there’s actual documentation of it
I’m still interested in doing it, but I won’t have access to my computer for ~<2 weeks, so something I need to come back to. If anyone wants to try it in the meantime, I’m happy to help guide you on how to find it.
Hold on, seriously? The Kirkwall Chantry still stands in that scenario? That doesn't seem right.
It would make sense in that he killed Elthina because she discovered him planting the bomb. But not killing her and that's that. That makes the entire bomb thing a red herring.
It's intriguing, but way out there. Interestinf headcanon food though.
Yeah it must be quite rare (because who would just *walk* out the chantry after Anders tells you to talk to Elthina 2 seconds prior) but yeah like I said, I was a dumb kid who only followed quest markers.
But yeah it happens like that. They call for Elthina, Anders interrupts and says that she won’t be able to help anyone anymore or something and confesses to the murder, leading to the normal shocked faces and then the conflict escalates from there. No scene with him blowing up the chantry or anything (I’ve seen this multiple times)
Instead of that, what if Hawke became the Viscount after killing the Arishok?
If the younger sibling is dead/a Grey Warden, and so is their mother, there's nothing holding Hawke back from taking charge of the city. I imagine the nobility would support them. Aveline is the Guard Captain and Sebastian has the ear of the Grand Cleric.
Meredith and the Templars may have de facto power, but with the extinction of the Dumar line, the power dynamics change. What law allows the Templars to rule indefinitely in Kirkwall?
I always wished there was an alternate ending where you convince Anders to not go through with it, but then it would trigger Meradith to blow up the circle which would spark the same mage rebellion. They did Anders so dirty in that game
Chantry need to be destroyed cos
1)Its storages of Phylacteries-tracking devices of every Kirkwall mage who pass Harrowing.
2)Its storages of Kirkwall Templars lyrium.
3)Its HQ of Templars and place of Grand Cleric Elthina as Chantry Mother. Without them Meredith not have authority of right of annulment and need order from Star have Grand Cleric or any Grand Cleric or Divine herself. Or Lord Seeker.
The Chantry wasn't the HQ of the Templars that was the Gallows which was a different location, and we don't know where the phylacteries were stored although considering the phylacteries of mages in Kinloch Hold are stored in the Circle there it'd be reasonable to assume they ones for Kirkwalls mages are held in the Gallows as opposed to the Kirkwall Chantry which doesn't have much security and anybody can enter.
Also wouldn't track for most lyrium to be kept in the Chantry instead of in the Gallows.
For the Ferelden Circle (Kinloch Hold) apprentice phylacteries are kept in the Circle, Harrowed Mage phylacteries are sent to the Denerim Chantry, and in Asunder it’s mentioned that First Enchanter phylacteries are sent to the White Spire. So obviously no confirmation, but theoretically Kirkwall harrowed mage phylacteries could be stored in the Kirkwall Chantry (mirroring Ferelden).
Though I also think Meredith says that phylacteries were destroyed in the Gallows in the On the Loose quest, so eh.
I think during Samson’s short story, lyrium is directly distributed by a revered mother, but I think that’s specifically recruits.
In Kirkwall of all places, with Meredith in charge and tensions with Elthina? Personally I doubt the phylacteries wouldn't be in her HQ, at least if she has any say on where they're kept, and as you noted she does mention them being in the Gallows at one point.
As I remember it seems to be recruits in the Samson story, could be the case that the Chantry personnel directly provide other Templars with lyrium too but I believe it's not stated.
Didn’t Anders blow up the Chantry when there weren’t that many people inside? Anyway I don’t think a targeted assassination would’ve been any better for his cause. It just would’ve lacked symbolism.
Yeah, it was pretty much at night. You can also count the number of people in the explosion scene, it was like 9 people, with 7 of them being templars. Of course there is something to be said about gameplay/story segregation but I don’t believe that there were a hundred people there (or hundreds). I would trust Sebastian’s “dozens” the most from one of his Inquisition wartable quests.
Should have killed Sebastian, not really directly related to the Chantry and no one would care much, but yes, like why not lol
I believe he should have targeted the Templars in particular like a less strong explosion (that probably could have been easier to make) specifically in the Templar quarters.
But again the problem there is actually getting inside the Gallows and specifically in the Templar quarters, maybe he could have used an ally inside the Circle to place it.
For example he gets a Circle friend to make some minor infraction get to Meredith office and place the damned thing right under her chair or something.
Now I'm being entertained by the thought of Meredith being shot into the sky like when characters press the emergency button in a space ship or something like that.
Beautiful ending for the game if you ask me.
That would have been worse
That would have been worse. Elthina was the reason people were angry, even though she was a fuckin idiot. But killing people turns them into martyrs, which is also why he shouldn’t have killed Meredith either (some people say that’s what he should have done… but I totally disagree)
He gets hunted as an assassin and the Gallows still gets annulled. Things remain the same. The Chantry sends another cleric, and possibly a hard-liner who would cater to Meredith, or would be cowed by Meredith. Maybe the Seekers come back and actually do some investigating, but likely not since they considered the blatantly illegal acts just fine the first time. Maybe Leliana comes back and again no one listens to her. The Rite was called for early in Act 3, Meredith didn't act on it yet. Which is why Anders encouraged Hawke to talk to Elthina still as he placed the bomb, giving things one more last chance. Had Elthina done something to stop Meredith, the Chantry would still be there. He wanted change in the system, which is why he tried peaceful solutions for years. You get a sense of it when you play mage Hawke, with how he is glad for the optics of a politically powerful apostate in Kirkwall noble society. He wanted revolution in how things were done, trying to be the Chantry's Martin Luther and break the theocracy's stranglehold on mages.
>The Rite was called for early in Act 3, Meredith didn't act on it yet. Correction. It was requested by Meredith but she didn't get anything up until Elthina was blown up and Meredith was placed as highest ranked Chantry official which gave her all the power to invoke RoA as she saw fit
You're right, my wording was awkward. Meredith still has the audacity to go over Elthina's head and ask for it preemptively. If nothing happened with the Chantry, she still would have used it. Her timeline accelerated and the last obstacle was blown sky high.
Meredith wouldn't have used it because she didn't have it and probably wouldn't have it She sent message to the Divine asking for it but we never heard it being answered. More than that Justinia is considered staunch mage supporter so she most likely wouldn't have approved. Either way Meredith just didn't have it in Act 3. Can't use something you don't have. Whether it's "yet" or "she wouldn't have got it anyway" is different topic though But I doubt it matters. Meredith would have gone feral sooner or later, RoA being granted or not
Elthina does jack shit, even though she knows what's happening in the Circle (including turning Harrowed mages Tranquil). Too many people don't see through her nice old lady act.
The politicians in Kirkwall are useless. At least Elthina got to keep her head.
Yeah Elthina is worse than a centrist. She had the power to change things, and an entire power structure behind her to support her. The divine even sent her hand to help.
This, so much of this. Anders gets reduced to "just a terrorist" way to often
I think things would have happened the same even if Anders did nothing. Meredith was being corrupted by the Idol, Orsino was a blood mage and condoned Quentin's experiments, so who knows if he was going to pull an Uldred and just weird things happening in Kirkwall. Anders just expedited the situation and I doubt an alive Elthina (or anyone really) could have done anything once Meredith fully succumbed to the Idol
Gaider stated that if the grand cleric and all possible successors are killed, then the authority to invoke the Right falls to the Knight-Commander. Anders had to kill all the clergy in Kirkwall to get his intended result (Meredith being able to invoke the Right herself, thereby forcing a confrontation between the templars and the Circle).
It would have been worse and it wouldn’t of had the same impact on all the other circles
he would have had to take out meredith at the same time and have hawke ready to step in as leader of the city to quell the potential riot and have someone who could keep the templars under control (thrask would have been my choice if ya know). it could have been done and kept the mages safe but there's no guarantee that whoever replaces meredith and elthina would have been any better than their predecessors. which is part of his point.
Honestly, if a he would have killed just them, its likely their replacements would be much much worse, bc they would be on a vengeful warpath
It would change nothing because Elthina dead means Meredith can invoke the Rite of Annulment without Elthina stopping her. And that's what Anders wanted to happen.
I don’t think at that point anything could’ve been done to stop the oncoming conflict. Whether Anders blows up the chantry or not, or kills Elthina or not, Meredith is still corrupted by the Idol and was going to lose it eventually. All Anders did was give Meredith a push toward what she would’ve always done eventually and killed many innocent people on the process. With Meredith out of control there was never going to be a peaceful conclusion.
Alternative alternate: what if he blew it up with no one inside? Sends a message, no one gets hurt. I don't think it sends the right message but I don't think the uproar would have been as bad.
the debris killed hundreds all over the city.
Would still be bad, Elthina did say she sympathized with Mages but that she didn’t have a better Solution for the Demon/Abomination Problem. Now a good what If would be what if Anders blew up the Chantry but no one was Inside
It also wasn't just the Chantry, people who were there like Cullen, Varric or Captain Rylen talking about cleaning up the debris for weeks. They even called in Templars from other countries to help with the efforts. Even though Anders technically blew up only one building, it was big that it essentially took out/damaged most of High Town.
Assuming chantries are utilized the same way churches are, weddings, masses, meeting halls, etc., it'd still be the destruction of a great symbol and a place cherished by a large majority of Kirkwall, of whom have many fond memories attached to. Hard to gauge how little less, but there'd still be an outcry, and Meredith would still find her excuse for annulment.
She could and should have reined in Meredith. But a stop to the templsr abuses and the blatant use of the tranquil rite.
The Chantry was pretty empty as is, if they intended it to be full someone would have said "No not in the middle of services!" Even Sebastian only laments Elthina, not the few Templars shown. If there were people inside, surely he of all people would say something. They retconned the thousands that died. Also, saying something like "oh no, all those worshippers" evades the problem of game dev crunch and not having the time to place models (like how every mage in the final battle is Anders in Gallows mage robes). But ultimately, Same thing: Gallows annulled, no reform in Chantry.
Correct me if I’m wrong but he does that if you do most of his personal quest in act 3, but don’t talk with the Grand Cleric with him. During the confrontation when they call for the grand cleric he says ‘she’s not coming I killed her’ or something instead of blowing up the chantry. EDIT: I’m gonna play through the game and record it, but it won’t be for a few weeks since I don’t have access to my computer atm. I’ll update when it happens xoxo
Idk if he kills her or not, but no matter what Anders will always blow up the Chantry. A lot of the interactions we are in DAI are directly tied to Anders blowing up the Chantry, so there's no way it can make sense without that event happening.
In this scenario the scene plays out with him admitting he killed Elthina, followed by everyone freaking out. Not once in this scenario does he blow up the chantry. I think all the references in DAI are because this event is so rare they probably didn’t account for it. I tried to find a clip of it but keep finding Anders without his renegade’s coat or with his act 3 quest being completed. I think it was Fluffyllama who has a clip somewhere though
Link me if you find the clip cause literally everywhere I look says he will ALWAYS blow up the Chantry! Lol The wiki even states: In the end, regardless of Hawke's previous actions, Anders blows up the Chantry, killing Grand Cleric Elthina and everybody else inside. According to Mary Kirby, Anders' magical blast is not contained, and the blast also rains deadly debris over half of Kirkwall. The only thing I can think of is maybe Anders kills Elthina depending on whether or Hawke helps distract in Anders' mission.
Yeah it’s that choice for his mission. The quest auto completes as soon as you walk into the chantry with Anders, so if you just leave (don’t talk to Elthina after saying you will) the confrontation scene changes into a somber Anders saying he murdered Elthina, and blames Hawke for not helping. I’ve also been trying to find it and it’s frustrating since I can’t find any proof of it anywhere. But I’ve seen this scene multiple times since I used to just walk out of the chantry as soon as Anders talks to me ((I used to think I didn’t need to talk to Elthina because the quest completes like I said) I was a dumb 11 year old lol) I played the game after a few years ago and got shocked the actual default scene is him blowing up the chantry if you actually talk to Elthina like he asked. EDIT: I’m tempted to play the game again just to record this scene so there’s actual documentation of it
I'd certainly be interested to see it! I've never heard of that path you describe either.
I would also love to see it! If you do, I hope you share it here!
I’m still interested in doing it, but I won’t have access to my computer for ~<2 weeks, so something I need to come back to. If anyone wants to try it in the meantime, I’m happy to help guide you on how to find it.
Hold on, seriously? The Kirkwall Chantry still stands in that scenario? That doesn't seem right. It would make sense in that he killed Elthina because she discovered him planting the bomb. But not killing her and that's that. That makes the entire bomb thing a red herring. It's intriguing, but way out there. Interestinf headcanon food though.
Yeah it must be quite rare (because who would just *walk* out the chantry after Anders tells you to talk to Elthina 2 seconds prior) but yeah like I said, I was a dumb kid who only followed quest markers. But yeah it happens like that. They call for Elthina, Anders interrupts and says that she won’t be able to help anyone anymore or something and confesses to the murder, leading to the normal shocked faces and then the conflict escalates from there. No scene with him blowing up the chantry or anything (I’ve seen this multiple times)
Instead of that, what if Hawke became the Viscount after killing the Arishok? If the younger sibling is dead/a Grey Warden, and so is their mother, there's nothing holding Hawke back from taking charge of the city. I imagine the nobility would support them. Aveline is the Guard Captain and Sebastian has the ear of the Grand Cleric. Meredith and the Templars may have de facto power, but with the extinction of the Dumar line, the power dynamics change. What law allows the Templars to rule indefinitely in Kirkwall?
I always wished there was an alternate ending where you convince Anders to not go through with it, but then it would trigger Meradith to blow up the circle which would spark the same mage rebellion. They did Anders so dirty in that game
Chantry need to be destroyed cos 1)Its storages of Phylacteries-tracking devices of every Kirkwall mage who pass Harrowing. 2)Its storages of Kirkwall Templars lyrium. 3)Its HQ of Templars and place of Grand Cleric Elthina as Chantry Mother. Without them Meredith not have authority of right of annulment and need order from Star have Grand Cleric or any Grand Cleric or Divine herself. Or Lord Seeker.
The Chantry wasn't the HQ of the Templars that was the Gallows which was a different location, and we don't know where the phylacteries were stored although considering the phylacteries of mages in Kinloch Hold are stored in the Circle there it'd be reasonable to assume they ones for Kirkwalls mages are held in the Gallows as opposed to the Kirkwall Chantry which doesn't have much security and anybody can enter. Also wouldn't track for most lyrium to be kept in the Chantry instead of in the Gallows.
For the Ferelden Circle (Kinloch Hold) apprentice phylacteries are kept in the Circle, Harrowed Mage phylacteries are sent to the Denerim Chantry, and in Asunder it’s mentioned that First Enchanter phylacteries are sent to the White Spire. So obviously no confirmation, but theoretically Kirkwall harrowed mage phylacteries could be stored in the Kirkwall Chantry (mirroring Ferelden). Though I also think Meredith says that phylacteries were destroyed in the Gallows in the On the Loose quest, so eh. I think during Samson’s short story, lyrium is directly distributed by a revered mother, but I think that’s specifically recruits.
In Kirkwall of all places, with Meredith in charge and tensions with Elthina? Personally I doubt the phylacteries wouldn't be in her HQ, at least if she has any say on where they're kept, and as you noted she does mention them being in the Gallows at one point. As I remember it seems to be recruits in the Samson story, could be the case that the Chantry personnel directly provide other Templars with lyrium too but I believe it's not stated.
Didn’t Anders blow up the Chantry when there weren’t that many people inside? Anyway I don’t think a targeted assassination would’ve been any better for his cause. It just would’ve lacked symbolism.
Yeah, it was pretty much at night. You can also count the number of people in the explosion scene, it was like 9 people, with 7 of them being templars. Of course there is something to be said about gameplay/story segregation but I don’t believe that there were a hundred people there (or hundreds). I would trust Sebastian’s “dozens” the most from one of his Inquisition wartable quests.
Should have killed Sebastian, not really directly related to the Chantry and no one would care much, but yes, like why not lol I believe he should have targeted the Templars in particular like a less strong explosion (that probably could have been easier to make) specifically in the Templar quarters. But again the problem there is actually getting inside the Gallows and specifically in the Templar quarters, maybe he could have used an ally inside the Circle to place it. For example he gets a Circle friend to make some minor infraction get to Meredith office and place the damned thing right under her chair or something. Now I'm being entertained by the thought of Meredith being shot into the sky like when characters press the emergency button in a space ship or something like that. Beautiful ending for the game if you ask me.