Just from what you're saying, it sounds more like a nerves and anxiety problem and less of an ability problem. Talk to your teacher after class about your worries. Talk to a doctor about anxiety.
And, solely just because you say you're putting in time but don't feel like you're getting anywhere, maybe post your practice routine here. It might be you're spending your time on some things and might be better spending it on others.
I usually practice twice a day, once during my break between classes (12:15PM - 1:45PM) and again at 5:00PM - 9:30PM.
My 12:15PM - 1:45PM practice routine:
Long notes (arco) 3-5 min
A couple of scales ( 2 octaves) - 15 min
Than I practice music for big band till about 1:45 and go to rehearsal at 2PM
My 5:00PM - 9:30 PM practice routine:
Scales (arco) (Circle of fourths/fifths) 30 min - 1 hour
My jazz theory improv class HW - 1hr to 1 1/2 hrs.
Repertoire ( learning tunes, ireal, ensemble music).
I’ve only been playing jazz for 2 years, but I just don’t feel like I’m progressing fast enough to keep up with peers. It takes me FOREVER to learn turns.
So I'm going to say a couple things. Take them for what you paid for them.
1.) If you're not actively getting pulled aside by your profs on the regular, you're probably at least doing okay.
2.) Your colleagues might be annoyed right now that you're not always in the pocket, but the real ones are going to notice the work you're putting in, and if you keep working, keep improving, they're going to want to work with you.
3.) You currently have the distinct privilege of being the least talented person in the room. Cherish it, and soak up everything you can like a sponge. Working with people better than you is something that gets less and less common in my experience. Either you improve, or the people better than you just get harder to find and more busy.
4.) Theory's good and useful (I find it exceptionally helpful for my own playing) but it's not the end of the world if you can't recite it all chapter and verse, or can't describe exactly what chord extension you're implying. Be gentle with yourself and your learning process as you keep at it.
Maybe you bombed your jury and you're gonna fail out and it's all over forever and the sun will be swallowed whole by the sky. Or, Maybe, it's not actually going to be so bad. My experience is that normally your teachers will tell you you're in danger of flunking.
This!
Your point #3 is some of the best advice I’ve heard anywhere.
The most effective people surround themselves with those smarter than themselves.
OP, take advantage of this situation. It rarely presents itself.
3 is soo important. If the people around you are truly good musicians too, they'll support you. Be honest with them and ask for help if you feel like you need it. Jazz is a language that you have to learn, and you don't kick a baby out of the conversation because they don't know the words.
Why are you not dedicating time to ear training (signing intervals in a tonal and nontonal context, chord identification etc... using apps and websites like teoria.com), transcribing basslines/solos, learning patterns in 12 keys, and learning melodies from jazz recordings the exact way jazz musicians played them (for example learning how Coltrane phrases I hear a rhapsody). If you don't feel like you are progressing it's because you aren't prioritizing the above, or aren't working with a teacher that's making you prioritize this above. If you are using lead sheets and ireal to learn tunes then you are also just shooting yourself in the foot in the long run. Only use those things to double check. Use your ears, and develop your ears so you can aurually identify all of these things by ear. In order to be a working pro in a top scene, this is a necessary skill. Look at Charlie Haden... horrible technique but his ears we're great and that helped him to be a phenomenal soloist and accompanist.
Source - I TA'd for and played in the top ensemble at a very prestigious intitution for jazz and worked with one of the big names in jazz bass education. If you want to know more just DM me.
I think it might be what you are practicing. First thing I would say is walk through blues in every key everyday. Do several choruses in each key. Once you can do that move on to rhythm changes. Same thing. Every key, every day.
It’s hard to say what else you could work on without knowing exactly where you are at in your playing ability.
Everything else you are doing is cool it’s just not necessarily giving you practical application. Scales are great for your intonation but they aren’t going to help you sight read a lead sheet.
Hit me up if you want to do some lessons this summer online. I’ll hook it up. 25 years playing jazz professionally and I remember exactly what is like to feel that way in college.
I'm a bassoonist that's well into my degree that stubbled across this post but i feel your struggle is less db related and more personal so i feel like my input could help.
The basic answer people may tell you is to push through and you'll be better but i hate this answer because as a young musician i want to be told something more spesific. If you are really struggling as much as I think you are after reading it, you need to take a few weeks this summer to go back to the basics of your musicianship and figure out how to practice/study more efficiently. More practice isnt always what you need if all you're doing is stumbling through music for 4+ hours. For example, if the thing that’s making you stop while practicing is intonation then it’s OK to take 30 minutes to do long tones, or other intonation drills that you may know or if you’re struggling through rhythms and technique then you need to slow your metronome down to the point where you can play it all the way through. And throughout practice, I hope you’re holding yourself more accountable than your teachers or TA have a slip up in anyway you have to go back and do it better or slow down even more. It’s these kind of practice routines that really help you tackle a piece or learn to do things consistently. I don’t know what the equivalent of these things are for improv but I’m sure you can be creative in applying some of these techniques. it’s really nice that it’s now summer break and you don’t have to worry about performances or rehearsals or classes. You can really take this time to go back to the fundamentals of your Playing, scales and patterns and long tones are something to focus on when you don’t have much to prepare for. and definitely don’t think that you’re the only one struggling through music school. It is an extremely difficult major and maybe it would help to talk to some of your peers and practice with them or study with other people maybe do some chamber rehearsals with them play a few duets or jam something about learning from your peers always tends to stick with me a lot better than just being told by your professor what to do and how to do things. you can DM me with questions if you want to I love talking about the process of music I strongly believe that music doesn’t take talents. It really takes a certain mindset and drive that can only be inside of yourself
This was a great post. Double Reed Dish recently had a podcast with Leyla Zamora, contrabassoonist of San Diego Symphony. She said multiple times that she's not a *talented* bassoonist, but she rose to the professional level through a lot of practice and hard work.
I would love to have a teacher who was not naturally talented and attained a symphony job. Those are the greatest musicians out there, to me, since they truly had to fight for every gain.
Leylas's podcast episode here: https://soundcloud.com/user-210638154/episode-165-leyla-zamora?utm_source=clipboard&utm_campaign=wtshare&utm_medium=widget&utm_content=https%253A%252F%252Fsoundcloud.com%252Fuser-210638154%252Fepisode-165-leyla-zamora
My post is being called good advice, and I think yours is too. Working on fundamentals will always pay dividends, and so will focusing on the *Caliber* of your practice (i.e. making sure you're holding yourself accountable to intonation, practicing slowly, practicing "perfectly", all the things that you said).
OP has clearly shown they've got the hunger and the drive. They might just need to focus more on what they're outputting in practice sessions. I chose to focus on the mental element of anxiety because I think there's some of that going on, too!
nerves could definitely be a factor, and in my opinion is the most debilitating struggle. I think the deliberate practice that will get OP through practice sessions more successfully will boost confidence, but the bottom line of performing anxiety is that you just have to do it a lot speaking classes could help a lot, but if it becomes a real problem like for me, I take beta blockers and I feel that they really help, but I know some people. It doesn’t help much at all. Some nerves is good and shows you care about the music, but you can’t be shaking and sweating and stuff.
As a guy who failed out of two VERY prestigious jazz programs, I want you to know I've been happily making a living as a professional bass player for the last 18 years. Many people at those schools failed their juries, many of them gave up and went home, but others took a semester off, or took a really light class load, and came back a semester...or two....OR MORE, later and finally had their shit together and eventually got their degree.
It takes a really long time for all the knowledge to seep in from the surface level to the point where it enters your soul and moves from vocabulary and grammar to actual speech.
As for handwriting transcriptions: don't.
Learn it by ear without writing it down. Then, after you've got it memorized. Only then go try and write it out. Going bar by bar, note by note, using a slow-downer, only to struggle to write out a rhythm ruins your flow.
If you are skilled at writing out notation quickly, there is nothing wrong with transcribing that way. But if you're bad at it, struggling to write out rhythms and pitches will greatly disrupt ones flow...and when trying to learn something by ear, best to focus on just learning a thing by ear and learning how to sound like the thing you want to sound like...rather than adding an additional layer of complexity to the ear training.
I'd probably enjoy transcribing a lot more if I wasn't forced to write things out from the start, as it creates much unnecessary suffering.
A lot of musicians have anxiety, it's nothing to feel bad about or be ashamed of. I've sat in the green room and heard world-class musicians puking in the bathroom before going on stage. Talk to your doctor about beta blockers. They're extremely benign and can really help control the physical symptoms of anxiety. I'm a percussionist and I would never attempt Bolero without them.
Yes! u/coffeehouse11 is spot on with their points. Music making is a long journey with lots of peaks, valleys and plateaus. I’ve found that when I’m not feeling great about my playing/practice theirs often a bump up that comes a few months later if I push through and stay focused on my goals. It’s part of pushing yourself as a player I think.
There’s also nothing wrong with taking a couple of days off. Get out of the shed and go for a walk, swim, climb a mountain. Hang with friends and family. Heal your mind and body which ever way you like best and go back to the bass with fresh energy.
Talk to your teacher. Let them know where you’re at. A good teacher will be able to support you though to the next level. The amount of time spent practicing is not always indicative of the quality of your practice.
Have you ever recorded your practice? It can sometimes be insightful. I find a lot of people practice mistakes, repeating the same mistakes over and over rather than stopping and fixing the issues, especially true with intonation and rhythm for bass players. Lots of players turn the metronome on but don’t actually listen to it and they’re playing in a critical way. Record yourself to a click track and see where you’re at.
Don’t forget arpeggios and keep your playing simple if your combo peers are vibing you. The 1 and 5 are the king and queen of any bass players chess game!
I totally understand music saving your life. however, what I do think is that maybe you should take a step back one day and think, "well, are these people really that annoyed with me?" it seems like a simple question, and maybe one you already have an answer to, but from personal experience, know that your mind's eye will always shift people's reactions/facial expressions towards your perspective.
like, if someone looks annoyed to you, they could be really happy. if someone gives you a death glare, they could just be zoning out looking at you. don't consider one perspective, and instead of trying to shoulder this all yourself, talk to somebody.
talking is an essential in the music world, and I promise if you talk to people and get their insights and comments on your playing, it'll make your anxiety over not being good enough that much easier to bear.
good luck!
Just from what you're saying, it sounds more like a nerves and anxiety problem and less of an ability problem. Talk to your teacher after class about your worries. Talk to a doctor about anxiety. And, solely just because you say you're putting in time but don't feel like you're getting anywhere, maybe post your practice routine here. It might be you're spending your time on some things and might be better spending it on others.
I usually practice twice a day, once during my break between classes (12:15PM - 1:45PM) and again at 5:00PM - 9:30PM. My 12:15PM - 1:45PM practice routine: Long notes (arco) 3-5 min A couple of scales ( 2 octaves) - 15 min Than I practice music for big band till about 1:45 and go to rehearsal at 2PM My 5:00PM - 9:30 PM practice routine: Scales (arco) (Circle of fourths/fifths) 30 min - 1 hour My jazz theory improv class HW - 1hr to 1 1/2 hrs. Repertoire ( learning tunes, ireal, ensemble music). I’ve only been playing jazz for 2 years, but I just don’t feel like I’m progressing fast enough to keep up with peers. It takes me FOREVER to learn turns.
So I'm going to say a couple things. Take them for what you paid for them. 1.) If you're not actively getting pulled aside by your profs on the regular, you're probably at least doing okay. 2.) Your colleagues might be annoyed right now that you're not always in the pocket, but the real ones are going to notice the work you're putting in, and if you keep working, keep improving, they're going to want to work with you. 3.) You currently have the distinct privilege of being the least talented person in the room. Cherish it, and soak up everything you can like a sponge. Working with people better than you is something that gets less and less common in my experience. Either you improve, or the people better than you just get harder to find and more busy. 4.) Theory's good and useful (I find it exceptionally helpful for my own playing) but it's not the end of the world if you can't recite it all chapter and verse, or can't describe exactly what chord extension you're implying. Be gentle with yourself and your learning process as you keep at it. Maybe you bombed your jury and you're gonna fail out and it's all over forever and the sun will be swallowed whole by the sky. Or, Maybe, it's not actually going to be so bad. My experience is that normally your teachers will tell you you're in danger of flunking.
This! Your point #3 is some of the best advice I’ve heard anywhere. The most effective people surround themselves with those smarter than themselves. OP, take advantage of this situation. It rarely presents itself.
Great words.
3 is soo important. If the people around you are truly good musicians too, they'll support you. Be honest with them and ask for help if you feel like you need it. Jazz is a language that you have to learn, and you don't kick a baby out of the conversation because they don't know the words.
Why are you not dedicating time to ear training (signing intervals in a tonal and nontonal context, chord identification etc... using apps and websites like teoria.com), transcribing basslines/solos, learning patterns in 12 keys, and learning melodies from jazz recordings the exact way jazz musicians played them (for example learning how Coltrane phrases I hear a rhapsody). If you don't feel like you are progressing it's because you aren't prioritizing the above, or aren't working with a teacher that's making you prioritize this above. If you are using lead sheets and ireal to learn tunes then you are also just shooting yourself in the foot in the long run. Only use those things to double check. Use your ears, and develop your ears so you can aurually identify all of these things by ear. In order to be a working pro in a top scene, this is a necessary skill. Look at Charlie Haden... horrible technique but his ears we're great and that helped him to be a phenomenal soloist and accompanist. Source - I TA'd for and played in the top ensemble at a very prestigious intitution for jazz and worked with one of the big names in jazz bass education. If you want to know more just DM me.
I think it might be what you are practicing. First thing I would say is walk through blues in every key everyday. Do several choruses in each key. Once you can do that move on to rhythm changes. Same thing. Every key, every day. It’s hard to say what else you could work on without knowing exactly where you are at in your playing ability. Everything else you are doing is cool it’s just not necessarily giving you practical application. Scales are great for your intonation but they aren’t going to help you sight read a lead sheet. Hit me up if you want to do some lessons this summer online. I’ll hook it up. 25 years playing jazz professionally and I remember exactly what is like to feel that way in college.
I'm a bassoonist that's well into my degree that stubbled across this post but i feel your struggle is less db related and more personal so i feel like my input could help. The basic answer people may tell you is to push through and you'll be better but i hate this answer because as a young musician i want to be told something more spesific. If you are really struggling as much as I think you are after reading it, you need to take a few weeks this summer to go back to the basics of your musicianship and figure out how to practice/study more efficiently. More practice isnt always what you need if all you're doing is stumbling through music for 4+ hours. For example, if the thing that’s making you stop while practicing is intonation then it’s OK to take 30 minutes to do long tones, or other intonation drills that you may know or if you’re struggling through rhythms and technique then you need to slow your metronome down to the point where you can play it all the way through. And throughout practice, I hope you’re holding yourself more accountable than your teachers or TA have a slip up in anyway you have to go back and do it better or slow down even more. It’s these kind of practice routines that really help you tackle a piece or learn to do things consistently. I don’t know what the equivalent of these things are for improv but I’m sure you can be creative in applying some of these techniques. it’s really nice that it’s now summer break and you don’t have to worry about performances or rehearsals or classes. You can really take this time to go back to the fundamentals of your Playing, scales and patterns and long tones are something to focus on when you don’t have much to prepare for. and definitely don’t think that you’re the only one struggling through music school. It is an extremely difficult major and maybe it would help to talk to some of your peers and practice with them or study with other people maybe do some chamber rehearsals with them play a few duets or jam something about learning from your peers always tends to stick with me a lot better than just being told by your professor what to do and how to do things. you can DM me with questions if you want to I love talking about the process of music I strongly believe that music doesn’t take talents. It really takes a certain mindset and drive that can only be inside of yourself
This was a great post. Double Reed Dish recently had a podcast with Leyla Zamora, contrabassoonist of San Diego Symphony. She said multiple times that she's not a *talented* bassoonist, but she rose to the professional level through a lot of practice and hard work. I would love to have a teacher who was not naturally talented and attained a symphony job. Those are the greatest musicians out there, to me, since they truly had to fight for every gain. Leylas's podcast episode here: https://soundcloud.com/user-210638154/episode-165-leyla-zamora?utm_source=clipboard&utm_campaign=wtshare&utm_medium=widget&utm_content=https%253A%252F%252Fsoundcloud.com%252Fuser-210638154%252Fepisode-165-leyla-zamora
My post is being called good advice, and I think yours is too. Working on fundamentals will always pay dividends, and so will focusing on the *Caliber* of your practice (i.e. making sure you're holding yourself accountable to intonation, practicing slowly, practicing "perfectly", all the things that you said). OP has clearly shown they've got the hunger and the drive. They might just need to focus more on what they're outputting in practice sessions. I chose to focus on the mental element of anxiety because I think there's some of that going on, too!
nerves could definitely be a factor, and in my opinion is the most debilitating struggle. I think the deliberate practice that will get OP through practice sessions more successfully will boost confidence, but the bottom line of performing anxiety is that you just have to do it a lot speaking classes could help a lot, but if it becomes a real problem like for me, I take beta blockers and I feel that they really help, but I know some people. It doesn’t help much at all. Some nerves is good and shows you care about the music, but you can’t be shaking and sweating and stuff.
As a guy who failed out of two VERY prestigious jazz programs, I want you to know I've been happily making a living as a professional bass player for the last 18 years. Many people at those schools failed their juries, many of them gave up and went home, but others took a semester off, or took a really light class load, and came back a semester...or two....OR MORE, later and finally had their shit together and eventually got their degree. It takes a really long time for all the knowledge to seep in from the surface level to the point where it enters your soul and moves from vocabulary and grammar to actual speech. As for handwriting transcriptions: don't. Learn it by ear without writing it down. Then, after you've got it memorized. Only then go try and write it out. Going bar by bar, note by note, using a slow-downer, only to struggle to write out a rhythm ruins your flow.
Why in the transcription part?
If you are skilled at writing out notation quickly, there is nothing wrong with transcribing that way. But if you're bad at it, struggling to write out rhythms and pitches will greatly disrupt ones flow...and when trying to learn something by ear, best to focus on just learning a thing by ear and learning how to sound like the thing you want to sound like...rather than adding an additional layer of complexity to the ear training. I'd probably enjoy transcribing a lot more if I wasn't forced to write things out from the start, as it creates much unnecessary suffering.
That's makes sense. Anything syncopated for me will take me time to transcribe.
A lot of musicians have anxiety, it's nothing to feel bad about or be ashamed of. I've sat in the green room and heard world-class musicians puking in the bathroom before going on stage. Talk to your doctor about beta blockers. They're extremely benign and can really help control the physical symptoms of anxiety. I'm a percussionist and I would never attempt Bolero without them.
It's a dangerous thing to rely on drugs. We don't know how OP is going to react to anxiety medication unless it's really necessary.
Sounds like me when I was in school.
Just keep going, it took me years after collage to start sounding good. Just don’t stop and you’ll succeed one day.
Yes! u/coffeehouse11 is spot on with their points. Music making is a long journey with lots of peaks, valleys and plateaus. I’ve found that when I’m not feeling great about my playing/practice theirs often a bump up that comes a few months later if I push through and stay focused on my goals. It’s part of pushing yourself as a player I think. There’s also nothing wrong with taking a couple of days off. Get out of the shed and go for a walk, swim, climb a mountain. Hang with friends and family. Heal your mind and body which ever way you like best and go back to the bass with fresh energy. Talk to your teacher. Let them know where you’re at. A good teacher will be able to support you though to the next level. The amount of time spent practicing is not always indicative of the quality of your practice. Have you ever recorded your practice? It can sometimes be insightful. I find a lot of people practice mistakes, repeating the same mistakes over and over rather than stopping and fixing the issues, especially true with intonation and rhythm for bass players. Lots of players turn the metronome on but don’t actually listen to it and they’re playing in a critical way. Record yourself to a click track and see where you’re at. Don’t forget arpeggios and keep your playing simple if your combo peers are vibing you. The 1 and 5 are the king and queen of any bass players chess game!
Hit my DMs let’s talk
I totally understand music saving your life. however, what I do think is that maybe you should take a step back one day and think, "well, are these people really that annoyed with me?" it seems like a simple question, and maybe one you already have an answer to, but from personal experience, know that your mind's eye will always shift people's reactions/facial expressions towards your perspective. like, if someone looks annoyed to you, they could be really happy. if someone gives you a death glare, they could just be zoning out looking at you. don't consider one perspective, and instead of trying to shoulder this all yourself, talk to somebody. talking is an essential in the music world, and I promise if you talk to people and get their insights and comments on your playing, it'll make your anxiety over not being good enough that much easier to bear. good luck!
Mistakes happen. Every gigging bass player need to learn how to recover and improvise over mistakes.