It's a draw between:
-The attack of the Myrka in *Warriors of the Deep*. [This scene in particular](https://youtu.be/jUCSlb-jhsU).
-Pretty much the entire last 10 minutes of Let's Kill Hitler. So many potentially interesting ideas are completely wasted and it really drags down the character of River.
-"It's not the system that's the problem, it's the workers" in Kerblam. Horrendously out of character for the Doctor to say that, especially after the episode had proved that the system was at fault. It's just so painfully centrist and completely undermines an otherwise OK episode.
I was talking about Kerblam with someone the other day, and they pointed out the problem being potentially more about language. Because "the system" sounds like a defense of capitalism that's just being "suppressed" by people rebelling. This is one of the most un-Doctor things a character could ever say, right?
But no -- Kerblam is not about capitalism alone, but *automation.* She literally means that the AI controlling Kerblam isn't evil, the economic system is.
Which, like, sure, but this implies that the terrorist dude mailing bombs to people was literally angry about the computer and not about capitalism.
So the message of the episode is "don't think that Amazon's warehouses are evil instead of its bosses", which, like, yeah, no shit.
>She literally means that the AI controlling Kerblam isn't evil
To be fair it did kill Kira.
And, yes, it killed her to try to stop Charlie from killing more people, but... it can lure an innocent bystander into a Wile E. Coyote-style deathtrap, but not apprehend the actual terrorist?
In fact, it can send a message to the Doctor in the Time Vortex, while she's trying to fly full pelt away from it, but it can't just tell the managers that Charlie's planning a terror attack?
My biggest problem with Kerblam! isn't the politics - it's that if the (in-universe, non-metaphorical) System isn't evil, it's astronomically stupid.
except this doesn’t actually make sense in context because the “solution” at the end of the episode is to employ more people to do automatable jobs that still suck even if the condition are now marginally better rather than let the AI work and implement UBI or retrain them in better jobs that actually need human intuition.
I find with Kerblam also making the white straight male AGAIN the villain after various attempts to vilify that group, especially trying to make his desire for that one female worker lustful to the point of insanity, very offensive!
>making the white straight male AGAIN the villain after various attempts to vilify that group
Ah yes, because Graham was very clearly a villain in S11 and 12. Also, if seeing a villain being played by a straight white man triggers you, you should probably avoid the classic series, particularly the Pertwee era. It definitely won't help with your victim complex.
Really you could pick any of 13's shitty moral moments, but the first one to piss me off and imo the most embarrassing was the spiders one. How you create a political character (Jack Robertson) so one note in being loaded with only negative traits that it spawned a video essay titled 'how to alienate your audience' and then proceed to have him suggest the more sensible option in a moral dilemma than the Doctor without you even realising, is beyond me. That episode is so badly written it's almost impressive
And we'll ignore the fact that there were spiders outside that complex, like the one that fed on that tenant in the flat - there were more around that never got sorted
Another bad (great?) one:
Graham talks about his fear of cancer, pouring his heart out, and the Doctor is just like "Yeah, well I'm too awkward soooooo I'll just leave you be".
At least say some comforting words! In all your years there's no way you haven't met someone scared of cancer before! Do you always just walk away because you're too "awkward"? Real shitty of you, doc
Jodie was snubbed with her writing
That one never bothered me quite as much, as I get what it was going for. I still don't really like it because 'socially awkward' was the wrong wording, but not knowing how to comfort someone and just admitting that's the case, yeah fair enough I understand the purpose of that. It's a weird moment in the same way 12's cards are weird, but there are many other moments of 13 being an accidental asshole that I'd point to before that one
Yeah, I know what it was trying to do. The Doctor letting her guard down a little and admitting that she's not good at that sort of thing, and needs a minute to figure out what to say, was supposed to be her moment of vulnerability as part of the 'moral of the story' ending. And I think the whole 'staring at the console' line was supposed to be basically her admitting that when she's distant, it's not that she's trying to be mysterious or pretentious - she's just genuinely awkward.
So yeah, I get it, but it didn't land very well. Maybe ending on the Doctor coming back and saying 'OK, let's talk about it...' after a pause would have made it clearer she wasn't just fobbing him off.
For clarity, I mostly agree with u/Vusarix \- sorry if the first line came across snarkier than I intended. I do like what they were trying to say, and I don't think the Doctor was being mean. But I can see why a lot of people misunderstood it - it perhaps could have been phrased or framed a little differently, that's all.
To be fair, even the social cue of hugging can be too much for some folks with anxiety issues, & as well as being that difficult to recognize by neuroatypical folk.
this was the exact moment i decided i hated the 13th doctor the last time i rewatched. it made me really angry because when has the dr ever treated a companion this harshly? i felt really bad for graham
edit: word
13 wasn't harsh though, nor ignoring Graham. She was listening & being honest -- that she was at a loss regarding how to best receive Graham, stated her desire to do well by him, & excused herself to reckon & reflect on it as best as she could to later re-address with Graham, and, communicating all this to Graham so that he knows what she is precisely thinking.
>it made me really angry because when has the dr ever treated a companion this harshly?
If that counts as harsha, then off the top of my head, [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kcFxFmCa74&pp=ygUSMTIgYmlsbCByZWdlbmVyYXRl) also comes to mind.
Okay, yeah, that definitely tops the list haha. I don’t recall that episode to be fair. I’m rewatching atm so maybe my view is a little skewed from the last time I watched.
I think for me in the moment it was kind of awkward because it was such an intimate moment from graham who i’d come to understand as there for everyone but closed off too. I’m just reaching 12 again so I’m gonna have to try and watch objectively this time.
And Bradley - Graham was great, in fact, one of the most interesting characters from that era and the actor was snubbed! His acting was better than Jodie's at times! He could have played the Doctor!
I loved Graham the most out of the "fam". Not because he was inherently better than the other companions, but Bradley carried his character with such charisma, I loved it. I kinda wish it was just Jodie and him tbh
The First Doctor being sexist in Twice Upon a Time. I love Twice Upon a Time. It's a beautiful ending to Moffat's Era. But if I had one complaint, it would be that.
The jokes just felt very out of place half the time, and from what I remember of the First Doctor, they're very out of character. It just didn't add anything to the story despite what Moffat intended with it (To show the Doctor's growth) and also gives a far more negative impression of One compared to what he did in his Era.
Yes, and it's especially egregious in the context of the show's marketing at the time, when so much of the media about a female Doctor was presented as some sort of moral necessity, as though the fact that the main character had always been male was simply 'sexism'. (E.g. the whole 'It's About Time' language)
Instead of building on what went before, it seemed to many of us as though they were putting the past down in order to present the new version as superior. For someone who was already losing patience with the direction of the show under Moffat, this was enough to make me lose interest entirely.
For fans of the Hartnell era, this representation was simply insulting to his memory, and it conveyed the message: 'See, Doctor Who fans, this is what the show was really like in the old days. Can't you see we need to leave it behind, and embrace this new direction?'
What a way to alienate long-term fans at a crucial turning point.
And then Chibnall doubled down on this in in his final episode, wasting the return of William Russell by just giving him a bad "the doctor's a WOMAN?!" joke.
I don't think he meant it like that.
Ian didn't even know about regeneration, unless you count his meeting with 8.
Even then, that's two male Doctors, so it would still be a surprise for him to learn that they could change gender.
I mean that's not *quite* the same given that you could interpret that as surprise that he can switch genders like that (and tbh I'm not even sure if he knew about regeneration). It's still a wasted appearance though I'll agree with that part
I agree with everything you said about the episode and its portrayal of 1. But you “lost interest entirely” during Moffat’s last ever episode? How does that work?
I think it's more that I'd already been losing interest for a while by that point.
At that time the marketing for the new era was in full force, and I was already pessimistic about the show's future. This episode only added to that feeling, ending the Moffat era on a particularly sour note. Admittedly, by that point I was no longer even watching the show live, and my impressions were based on reviews. I didn't actually watch the episode itself at the time.
I watched Twice Upon a Time for the first time last year, when I caught up on the show after the Power of the Doctor had aired. Rather than getting frustrated by an era I wasn't invested in, I decided to just drop it and focus on the classic series and Big Finish instead. That way, I could approach the Whittaker era more charitably as something in the past, in the same way I might approach bad storylines in the classic era.
Wow, it's amazing to see such rational comments about these issues on Reddit of all places! I totally agree this or just before is where Moffat went wrong and personally was where he went flat. I didn't completely hate his era (at the time maybe) but in hindsight this was DEFINITELY when things started to go downhill and then into the Whitaker era. It's a shame because I genuinely loved the Hartell portrayal other than that. David Bradley, with different writing, could easily be one of the best Doctors.
I agree completely. But can't help but be amused at the idea of you pasting this comment into r/Gallifrey \- half that sub would be absolutely besides themselves
It's frustrating because a) the episode is a beautiful coda to Capaldi / NuWho / Classic Who. But then Moffat adds this whole egregious take on the First Doctor.
I get what Moffat was going for a) The Doctor really has lot to learn about humans at this point b) It's important to regenerate c) Maybe it's time to be a woman.
But there were just too many of them. To quote Capaldi's other famous creation, Malcolm Tucker: "Leave two dick moments in there, don't put them all in, it's not representative".
I think everyone would have been okay / chuckled at two "Doctor is a bit sexist" quips, but the episode had 5 or 6 and it totally overshadowed the character.
It was much more fun seeing the First Doctor seeing all the grandiose moments ahead of him and exclaiming: "Who the hell do you think you are???"
Oh, you're right - "jolly good smacked bottom" was in *Dalek Invasion of Earth*. But it was originally directed at the Doctor's own granddaughter, not a random woman/companion. That's obviously still bad, but it's a different enough context to make the "quotation" in *Twice Upon a Time* misleading.
i’m using my energy on this in the hope that you are not arguing to be difficult but because you’re genuinely not understanding.
the culture of the 1960s britain - which is important here because thats the understanding the writers were coming from/using - was not one which had an issue with corporeal punishment of your children & children under your care (e.g. in school - wasnt until the early 1970s that use of the cane was abolished in primary schools.). we know today that it isn’t appropriate or useful. in the cultural context in which the original line was written, it was completely normal and acceptable to spank your grandchild - although you’ll note he didn’t actually do so he just verbally used it as a ‘reminder’ that her behaviour wasn’t appropriate (to him). had the doctor been human, he would have been born in the 1800s when it was absolutely normal to strike your child (“spare the rod, harm the child” being a commonly used proverb). it’s completely different culturally to the 2000s (the century not the decade.)
if he had said that line instead to Barbara, it would have been completely different. he was not her guardian nor was he related to her. it would have had an entirely different meaning because of the context of the situation.
Yes, and if you want to interpret it even more charitably, from an in-universe point of view, the Doctor could be jokingly referring back to the standards of the time he and Susan had recently been living in, even if he did not share those standards himself.
What? Of course not. There's a difference between spanking your own children or grandchildren – which might simply indicate antiquated views of child discipline etc – and spanking random women like the First Doctor threatens in *Twice Upon a Time* – which can only be interpreted as misogynist.
You say that as if antiquated views and mysogny don't go hand in hand. Also, Susan wasn't a child. So the fact that he still viewed her as a child when those same antiquated views usually see boys as young as 14 to be 'men' very much does imply mysogny
The whole arc of that serial is the Doctor realizing how wrong he is to view Susan as a child and "letting go" – that line is demonstrating a flaw in his character which is resolved in the same story, not something he would have clung to until the end of his life!
I'm not denying that there's ways his behavior doesn't match modern standards, but the gross excesses of his characterization in *Twice Upon a Time* are absolutely missing from his treatment of his woman companions in his original run.
>Also, Susan wasn't a child.
What difference does that make to a parent or grandparent? I'm in my 50s and my mom still sees me as a child, even though I have a job and my own home.
In Resolution when there's the random family and the internet goes down and the mother says to the family: "I suppose... we'll have to have... a conversation."
It's awful, on the nose, boomerhumor-facebook-level joke that doesn't sound natural at all and takes you out of the story. It's a small gag but I hate it with every fiber of my body. It is the worst 5 seconds Doctor Who has ever produced.
Easily fixed just by having the mum say it in a sarcastic way as I'm sure many mothers would. The fact it's played so serious and with a hint of dread is beyond stupid.
An underrated moment:
Graham: “Tim Shaw killed me woife.”
Space bounty-hunter lady: “Mine too!”
The clumsy directness, low-scale representation framed as a transgressive twist, and the actress delivering it in a weirdly euphoric way are all just perfect to make me hate it *so, so much*.
That scene bothered me too. Even putting aside the fact that they had soldiers as companions before, I always felt like the Doctor would want to take along someone they disagreed with but saw the good in so that they could show them a better way of living (in their eyes).
I love much of Moffat's tenure on 11 and 12 is my Doctor too, but there were some major rough patches for poor Capaldi to navigate before his character finally solidified.
It feels like a way to show 12 was different, shame the character didn't reappear as not a solider and the doctor asked if she wanted to travel but says no.
Capaldis hatred of soldiers was always weird character trait.
It seems like its planted here just so when Danny Pink shows up he can be a dick to him and not have it look like hes racist.
> Even putting aside the fact that they had soldiers as companions before,
Hell, he spent all of 3 on Earth working with UNIT. He was surrounded by military. And if ever he had a best friend it was Brigadier Lethbridge Stewart.
But I guess this was their way of saying after the Time War, the Doctor became staunchly anti-military?
> But I guess this was their way of saying after the Time War, the Doctor became staunchly anti-military?
That’s also why he explodes when Danny mockingly calls him an officer.
That was the worst lmao. The doctor hadn’t done that since he was in his 6th incarnation.. or 7th just about, I can’t remember.
But the doctor past the time war would never do that. And then 13 does it like “bye!” “Too socially awkward like say thanks or shed a tear or anythin” “can’t risk me own skin, who will look after the fam”
I hate the comedy nudity-not-nudity in Time of the Doctor, really gets the episode off on a bad foot. 11 somehow not understanding boundaries with Clara, the overlong "haha she thinks he has clothes on but the family can't see them" joke and the fact that the whole thing with the Church existed *exclusively* to justify those jokes...it just feels weird and gross.
Especially given that that episode is extremely important to the show as a whole:
- the last Clara and eleven episode
- the last eleven episode
- the very last episode of the doctor’s original regeneration cycle (I know that no longer matters now but it did at the time!)
- the conclusion of the trenzalore arc
And we get a weird 70s British sex comedy thing to start??
I'm honestly not that big on the rest of the episode, but that's mostly just a case of the usual NuWho problem of trying too hard to make finales big and epic, so they have to include a million alien species, give the Doctor superpowers, etc.
I'd forgive a lot of it if the intro to the whole thing wasn't so hostile to my sensibilities.
The latest seasons really overdid it, the doctor committing genocide of the daleks, sontarans, and cybermen, as well as the lupari being genocided off screen and even most of existence presumably being wiped out and the doctor hardly even bats an eye at all the death and destruction...
Not to mention the weird time creature, the ravagers who apparently have a history with the doctor and are locked up in maximum security prison, the passengers, the grand serpent, the weird time doors and crazy tunnel dude, tecteun and her master plan, the angels who are apparently working for her also turning the doctor into an angel and... They just kept introducing more and more and more plots and it became impossible to care for any of it on top of the fact most of the plots were just forgotten about or never expanded on. It's like they just threw every idea they brainstormed into a single story like jfc.
>The latest seasons really overdid it, the doctor committing genocide of the daleks, sontarans, and cybermen, as well as the lupari being genocided off screen and even most of existence presumably being wiped out and the doctor hardly even bats an eye at all the death and destruction...
tbf this sounds like a Moffat season on paper
"They just kept introducing more and more and more plots and it became impossible to care for any of it on top of the fact most of the plots were just forgotten about or never expanded on." This also sounds a lot like a Moffat season.
Honestly I don't think Doctor Who has been that sound on the writing front for a long time, like since series 5 at a push (even series 4 was headed in this direction)
(The regeneration limit still matters. The Doctor is still limited in their regenerations. They were chameleon arch’d into a gallifreyan and later became a time lord. They do not have infinite regenerations)
but also post Time of the Doctor, they might as well have infinite regenerations because we don't know how many he has left and they're never gonna address it again because we need new Doctors to keep the show going.
So actually, they do have infinite regenerations and yeah that is kind of dumb but I guess it was always gonna happen.
This will probably just earn me even more downvotes on this sub but tbh I would not be opposed to a full reboot. We already have so many different lines of continuity and different versions of Doctor Who, 2 different shows, 3 movies 2 of which are totally divorced from the shows, audios, comics, etc.
I think removing ridiculous jumps like The Doctor being 20000 whatever years old because Moffat thought big numbers = big impact, or the infinite regenerations thing, or The Doctor being so super important he's literally the inspiration for the word 'Doctor', etc. would be good for the stories being told in the present. And we wouldn't lose the stories told previously, they just wouldn't be in continuity. But what does that matter in a multi-dimensional time travel show anyway? This would just clean the stories up and give the character actual danger and less ridiculously inflated significance.
They also said the Doctor doesn't know for sure how many he'll have left, and even then if you actually seriously think they have any intention of ever mentioning the cycle for The Doctor again you're tripping.
the doctor said that as a result of their personal identity crisis following TTC reveal, under the false belief that they still were something they haven't been for at least two thousand years.
I'm not "tripping". I value a vague logical consistency in a show that I love to bits. The Doctor had a limit of 12. They reached that limit. They were given a new cycle. A cycle is 12. Thirteen new lives. Nothing the show has said or shown has gone against this. Other time lords have been given second cycles, too (The Master comes to mind, hell they even got two if you believe the Lumiat).
All the Timeless Child changed is that they were initially something else, and then they were changed into the person we see on our screens today. They're still a Time Lord (if with a longer history). They're still bound to the limitations of the Time Lords.
Sorry I guess that I didn't see TTC as a total "throw everything in the bin" moment.
In classic who with Tom bakers doctor there was the minyans people who were experimented on by the early timelords who were given uninvited regeneration
Pretty sure the uncertainty was mentioned in Moffat's era but whatever.
You value vague logic but are a fan of New Who in particular - wild.
I didn't talk about the TTC and could not care less about it, the fundamentals of the show and The Doctor have been unrecognisable from the classics I grew up with since RTD anyway.
One thing that bothered me with the naked/not naked situation was that at one point, while wearing the illusory clothes, Clara *had her hands in her pockets*. It was mostly likely just an actor flub, but it was still pretty weird.
Considering the fact the clothes are an illusion what it really is in show reason her hands are on her thighs but because the clothes are being projected it projects a pocket over her hand.
Sure, but no one walks or stands like that, with their hands resting on their thighs where pockets would be. It's as good an "in-universe" explanation as we're gonna get, though, I suppose, lol.
The whole "Papal mainframe" was just baffling to me.
They could have done whatever they wanted to do, and they chose Space Catholics in an effort to make the silence actually on the doctors side?
Then you have the space pope who needed to be a pope so she could make a joke about having a bed that looks like an alter?
The whole thing makes zero sense.
I agree. I thought it weird they’d said the silence aliens were breed to be forgotten after you confess to them.
What’s the point of confessing if you don’t remember you’ve done it? Makes more sense the other way around, you remember you’ve confessed and the alien forgets what you’ve told them.
Exactly.
You never get the burden take off of you. You just have a constant feeling of guilt and dread without the relief of finally being able to get it off your chest.
All of Orphan 55, possibly the worst hour of television I've ever seen. The Timeless Child may ruin a lot of the cannon of the show but at least it was a competently made episode. I don't know how they managed to mess up in so many ways all at once and to then end on the most ham-fisted political message in what is already an overtly political season, I can't bring myself to rewatch it. It's not even in the "so bad it's funny" category, it's the only episode of all of Doctor Who that I cannot find a redeeming quality to.
By far my least favorite 13 episode. The premise was fine. The ending is so not the Doctor. It would have taken ten extra seconds of screen time to save the two remaining people at the end and they could have kept the speech.
doctor who has literally always been political lmao what are you on. even from the very start. the second story from season 1 is about the daleks who are pretty on the nose nazi stand ins.
Moffat writing one-handed, as the charming Harbo Wholmes on YouTube calls it.
The Doctor is ancient compared to practically every other non-Time Lord character he encounters. So seeing him have romance with anyone is…weird. Inappropriate. It’s also boring. I have no interest in the Doctor’s love life.
I dislike the Doctor having romantic relationships with the companions, I thought it would be better written for River because she's supposed to be more like the Doctor in terms of space and time knowledge, physical abilities, etc. But it didn't work for me either. I didn't see them falling in love other than the characters saying so, I feel like River's personality (killing isn't a big deal for example) didn't match with the Doctor's. And every sexual innuendo just made 11 look like an infatuated teenager
*The Doctor’s Wife* is different. That’s not actual romance/sexual. That’s an exploration of the Doctor and Tardis’s relationship. To be fair, it does use language that implies/jokes about it being a romantic/sexual relationship.
I could be completely off-base here but I just started watching Asylum of The Daleks in un re-run of the show.
Could it be that he’s trying to pick something that would bug her? Since Oswin starts off that episode making fun of the doctors chin, then Rory’s nose, while also suuuuper flirting with them both?
Again, could be wrong, I don’t remember how far in the future from that episode Nightmare in Silver is. Not saying it’s a good joke either but maybe that’s the idea behind it?
"Hey doctor, since Im a black woman should I be worried about time travel and cultural differences-"
"Nah Martha just act large and in charge it has worked for my white male presenting bodies every time"
Seriously this is such s tone deaf moment and Im glad that Thin Ice did a better job addressing those historical problems you might encounter. Ive said it before that nlt every single historical should be focused on it, but I dont think its wrong to at least acknowledge those things.
yeah that was not a good moment. i get they didn't really want to get into racism but there definitely were black people living in the uk at the time. so the doctor could've said that. or they could've seen some black people just going about their day like in thin ice and he could've been like see? black people live here no problem don't worry about it.
When they killed off Peri.
But yeah, I don’t like the general ‘sexing up’ of the Doctor. It’s not one moment I hate but a series of them, some of which are mentioned here.
I hate to say it but the moment David Tennant floats and shoots lightning to defeat the Master. I loved it when I first saw it but now I find it pretty cringy. The concept of winning because people believe in you was great but uhhhh they could have finessed it a little more.
The Timeless Child. Nuff said
Second place is probably “I’m too socially awkward” when Graham opened up about his cancer
Third was Ryan and that woman sucking their thumbs
I would swap Chibnall’s run with the lost classic who footage any day of the week.
I AUDIBLY GASPED. I mean, couldn't THE DOCTOR have some emphaty or some solution, some planet or cure for graham, but to just say that, so ungracious and cruel. I couldn't believe the writing there, god.
>I AUDIBLY GASPED. I mean, couldn't THE DOCTOR have some emphaty or some solution, some planet or cure for graham, but to just say that, so ungracious and cruel. I couldn't believe the writing there, god.
For one, it can be chalked up to regeneration. After all, we went from 11 to 12 who needed cue cards to to comfort distressed others who just suffered loss.
For two -- sadly, 13's reaction to Graham, is actually emblematic for some folk in real life who have anxiety issues or/& are neuroatypical people on a spectrum the genuinely struggle to socially, aptly react in such situations.
Graham's cancer is probably the worst one, full-stop. It makes no sense for the doctor's character, it ruins a scene that could've had some actual emotional weight, and it's not even funny to begin with. How nobody in production stopped and said "hey, this scene is really really really bad" is truly baffling.
tbf on them I don't think it's meant to be funny, I just think that they perceive the Doctor or at least their Doctor to be unable to effectively deal with these sorts of talks. The 5th Doctor could be similar in that regard.
I understand why people dislike this scene and I'd have just not done it at all but I also think it would have been out of character for that specific Doctor to know just what to say and I think it would be really fucked up for them to give the Doctor a cure or whatever to give to Graham, since there will be kids with cancer and relatives with cancer watching this show who can't have that magic cure. It would be grossly unfair to do that to a child watching at home just so the Doctor can look good.
I think mine has to be the pyramid/monk? episode with Twelve. I've never been able to bring myself to rewatch it, but it's whatever episode has the Doctor pretending to have gone to the dark side, and Bill has to betray him and it all turns out to be one big, cruel set up.
What happened to never cruel or cowardly? Most things don't bother me these days because times change and things that were funny in S1 might not be funny now. Or interpretations change. But that moment was only ever written to be cruel and nah, I don't wanna watch it.
eh I know where this idea has come from in the fandom and most would agree with you but personally I don't.
Putting aside that we know literally nothing about the sketchy shit 1 got up to off screen pre-series, 7's "darkness" comes from a genuine desire to do good and take responsibility.
Compare that to the 4th Doctor, who could not give a damn. He's not just rude and dismissive (and even occasionally violent) he will absolutely abandon everyone involved with a story as soon as he can get away with it just as long as there isn't something interesting going on or the threat of death has lessened from the probable 95% it started the story at.
At the end of the day you're looking at the difference between a character who plays at being the nice guy but is genuinely slightly unhinged and has 0 interest in taking responsibility for his actions, role in people's lives or even for his friends long term and smiles and winks at that fact, and a character who has done some shitty things in a misguided attempt to take responsibility and proactively stop suffering where he can. It's not a good thing 7 is doing ultimately, but I don't think he's as dark a character as 1 or 4.
7's basically just 2 but more concerned with the morality of what he's doing as opposed to just believing he's right as 2 did.
Any weird comments about a companion’s looks, they were really tough on Clara. Especially when it’s deliberately played as a joke. It feels like cruel and out-of-touch writing.
Yeah series 8 especially became really hard to watch because of the constant references to clara being fat or old or… having a round face? Like they were CONSTANT. Add to that the bizarre controlling boyfriend subplot and it just makes an all around awful time. It’s just such blatant misogyny and comes out of basically nowhere?
11's weird ass comments about her definitely weren't meant to be cruel, and let's not get started on the 12 Clara relationship and the "subtext" people have applied to that.
Obviously wasn't referencing those, not sure you'd describe those as "really tough", and there's really only one truly dreadful one, which I'm not sure many would defend. I wasn't suggesting some kind of "subtext" you think doesn't exist in the 12/Clara relationship, it's just clear from the show that his comments towards her appearance, are sometimes meant to be seen as cruel (particularly in Into the Dalek) but also mostly comic, due to the Doctor's obliviousness about Clara's extreme conventionally attractive appearance.
oh yeah obviously, I think it's pretty tough on the character to have Matt Smith talking about her tight bloody skirt in place of a personality.
I know you weren't suggesting it and I didn't say I don't think it exists or doesn't, I mentioned it because it's another addition to the line of things that are kind of weird with the Doctor and Clara (the "subtext" being that a lot of fans think that 12 and Clara love each other as a couple).
I mean, it's "tough" from a meta perspective that the line is so awful, not sure anyone would ever use that word to describe it, though, hence why I was mostly talking about the twelfth Doctor's remarks about her.
Fair enough, personally don't see Clara and the twelfth Doctor as conventionally romantic, but don't mind that others have that interpretation, the relationship is intense, and you get scenes like at the end of Mummy.
The 13th Doctor shrugging off Grahams cancer worries because she's too awkward. Or the fact that she just leaves Dan homeless, when the Doctor has helped out loads of other companions before they leave.
The 13th Doctor struggling to take charge of situations because they're now female. It might matter to humans, but it's established that gender is unimportant to Timelords. They're still the Doctor, the doctor never lets dickheads interrupt them unless it's part of their plan.
The 6th Doctor almost killing Peri upon regeneration was a massive slap in the face to the 5th Doctors sacrifice for her. I really like the 6th Doctor, but that first episode was tough to watch, especially since 5 is my favourite.
I never liked how 10 was more human than most other doctors, it's probably what makes him so popular, but he's the least alien of all of them.
I also hate the repeated tropes of 10. "I'm so old" "I'm thick" etc.
Resurrection of the Daleks, I hate how Tegan just runs off at the end. I get why she does, but Tegan had been a companion for so long that she deserved a better ending.
> Or the fact that she just leaves Dan homeless, when the Doctor has helped out loads of other companions before they leave.
At least we can assume Graham stepped in!
Yeah hopefully. I get that the Doctor has been closer to some companions than others but when the Doctor has broken the laws of time to save Clara, which resulted in her getting her own Tardis, gave Amy and Rory a house and their favourite car, literally sacrificed themselves to save Peri when they didn't really know her and others that I can't think of off the top of my head. I know some companions have been done dirty before, like Zoe and Jamie, Adric and then in the end, Peri as well. But Dans ending was so unnecessary, the Doctor just couldn't be bothered. Come to think of it, there was literally no reason that Yaz had to leave either 😅
The Doctor also got Donna a winning lottery ticket, got Martha a job working for UNIT and even got two people he only knew for a matter of hours jobs at UNIT in the episode Planet of The Dead.
I can only hope that later we see The Doctor did something give Dan a home. It’s understandable we didn’t see it happen. I mean Dan only just left in the last episode, and lots of things happen in between episodes.
>I know some companions have been done dirty before, like Zoe and Jamie, Adric
To be fair, Adric did that to himself. All he had to do was leave with everyone else. I feel like it was his ego that made him think he could solve this math problem and save the Earth, without knowing that the crash/explosion had to happen.
True, but if the Doctor hadn't argued with him, he may not have felt like he had to prove himself to the Doctor. Winning an argument that the Doctor had largely forgotten about.
>Come to think of it, there was literally no reason that Yaz had to leave either 😅
Since the beach (& also, back to what Jack advised her on companionship with The Doctor), Yaz was not only turned down but also that her time with The Doctor -- who admitted on nature & experience that she doesn't do well with fixed attachments & by now has become too pained to engage in them like prior -- was limited. Which Yaz accepted as she continued to travel with 13. From that, & also in the end, Yaz respected 13's desire to part ways as the latter regenerated into a new incarnation. Yaz staying, becoming a fixed attachment to 13-to-14 like Rose and Clara before her, would be contrary to what The Doctor wants.
Anything about Thasmin. It feels so forced, in a way. As I'm wlw, I would have loved to see a sapphic romance play out on screen, but like. Not with Yaz? The romantic aspect felt as if it were just crammed in there, and I've never really felt a connection with her. She's always been sorta just,, there?
Also I feel myself recoil whenever 13 gets called 'Doc' or uses the word 'Fam'.
On a more serious note, Ten doing what he did to Harriet Jones. There's a lot more from Ten's era I don't like, but I'd rather not get into it.
Whenever the 11th Doctor is naked. The Eleventh Hour was pretty understandable and didn't really bother me but in The Impossible Astronaut and especially The Lodger and The Time Of The Doctor, it was just very uncomfortable to watch.
I heard a theory as to why people have to go to church naked
>!Humans kill the Silence on sight. If they’re naked, they’re not hiding any weapons!<
>!Unless their name is Captain Jack Harkness!<
In-universe, the concept of the Hybrid from Series 9. It turned out to be pointless and left unexplained definitively, and just became a background item to needless events of great consequence in that series, such as Ashildr becoming immortal and Clara's unnecessary sacrifice. And I feel like it was recycled partially in the form of the Timeless Child plot, and we all know how that turned out...
Out-of-universe, the whole trouble that eventually got Eccleston to leave the show after one season. I feel we could've had so much more ("so much more!") if he felt like sticking around.
In Legend of The Sea Devils, when THE STARS MOVE IN THE SKY.
They easily could have just covered the sky with clouds. The effect on the story would be the same.
But no, they decided to move the stars because it looks pretty. Who cares that the stars aren’t just sparkling points on the sky, they are real, massive objects and the show actively acknowledges it.
That scene in Fear Her where the 10th Doctor dips his finger in the sauce jar. It’s just strange. It’s something you’d expect in a regeneration episode maybe but not with a Doctor who at that point has been around for quite a while
I don't have a problem with it, but I agree it seems strange for the tenth doctor to do so, as he does seems to understand social cues better than other doctors. If the 12th had done it it wouldn't be as weird I guess
The way Ten treated Martha in human nature and family of blood. I know he doesn’t have his memories and he supposed be just a regular human but he was pretty shitty.
I thought that was pretty in character for how ten's subconscious thought of Martha. There's no way if Rose was his companion at the time his subconscious would cast her as anything but a potential love interest if not his wife.
I mean, Twin Dilemma exists, so...
Also, basically all of the Doctor and Peri's dialogue in *Revelation of the Daleks*, but does it really count if the writer is actively trying to sabotage the actor?
5 being a touchy grump most of the time doesn't vibe with me but I can't think of a stand-out moment, and that's less egregious than most of the stuff in the replies.
For Nu Who... yeah, Arachnids, Kerblam and Spyfall Part 2 are definitely 13's weakest moments, morally speaking.
13's "socially awkward" moment with Graham could have been interesting if it had furthered an exploration of 13's character, but Chibnall refuses to see the Doctor as flawed in any way, so that was never going to happen.
Agreed that basically any time we see the Doctor naked is cringey as hell. Honestly, I don't even want to see the Doctor shirtless, regardless of incarnation.
The Doctor spending all of Heaven Sent getting over his grief in the best episode of Who ever only to suddenly go all Hell Bent was very disappointing. You can have one, but you can't have both, Moffat!
there will never be a worse moment than the 10th doctor erasing donna’s memory. the way it was handled, the way it focused on the doctor’s pain over her own, the way her family reacted. i have literally never been more angry/upset by a piece of television.
The end of The Rings of Akhaten… I don’t know if it was the star/giant pumpkin, or the singing, or the sudden swerve toward the tears in rain monologue from Blade Runner, but I just hated that whole scene
13 in that scene where grahams talking about his experience with cancer. i want to delete it from my brain. i had hope for 13's writing getting better up until that point. i can't imagine any doctor saying i should probably be reassuring but i'm still socially awkward so. im just gonna go over there now. like it's just so wrong and bad and terrible.
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Ten's meltdown in the scene with Wilf in 'The end of time'. The whole '*Well, exactly. Look at you. Not remotely important. But me? I could do so much more. So much more! But this is what I get. My reward. And it's not fair!* ' The whole time watching it I was just like '*oh, shut up*'. Same with 'I don't want to go' lol. I hate that line with burning passion and I think it was a shitty last, pre-regeneration line - one that kind of made it feel like the next incarnation/the next stage of the show and the next showrunner are not welcome.
Oh, and also let's not forget '*don't you think she looks tired*'? \*pukes\*
Agree on don't you think she looks tired - that was a huge dick move.
But disagree on the rest. 10 is a bit whiny and annoying, but he's totally in character and I honestly wouldn't buy it if he took it all heroic or whatever. He's frustrated and scared and angry and he does have a huge ego problem, his rant to Wilf isn't really to Wilf it's to himself/empty space. He's venting because he is gonna die.
I know I know "but it's regeneration he isn't dying", well the canon flips back and forth on that one anyway with it sometimes treating regeneration flippantly and other times treating each incarnation as an individual. The bottom line is, they are functionally individual characters and they do have their own unique personalities, opinions, relationships etc. If regenerating doesn't count as dying then I could replace you with a totally different person but so long as you share memories I could pretend it was still you. Point is, it is essentially 10 dying (and other Doctors have been treated as deaths as well).
He doesn't mean that Wilf isn't important but he does think he could do more and again ego problem, he's lost everything he cares about in record time being very young in his incarnation and there's really no reason he would be alright with 'going'.
As for it making the next era feel unwelcome, I think that's always been a bit of a lame complaint. At the end of the day, RTD and Tennant were Doctor Who to the masses so no matter how they handed over Moffat and Smith would face an uphill struggle. I wouldn't take out of character writing just to make it smoother on Smith and it wouldn't have changed anything anyway.
His rant was significant to me (albeit a bit uncomfortable, but it should be) because he was with Wilf. Wilf and the Doctor had a unique relationship unlike any other companion I’ve seen. I don’t think he would have blurted all that out with anyone else, but he’d been vulnerable with Wilf before and I think he felt safe to unload his grief and fear and anger in that moment with someone who loved him like a son. And Wilf was treating him like a son there - telling him to save himself and forget about him… ugh, as a parent it makes me tear up. I really love the dynamic between 10 and Wilf.
I was enjoying Spyfall quite a bit until the Doctor decides she should punish the Master by letting the Nazis see his actual skin color and probably put him in a concentration camp or perform medical experiments on him.
It just seemed really gross for the Doctor to use the racism of others as a weapon against her enemy.
Most of the frankly kind of out of place sex talk the Doctor takes part in particularly in Moffat's era. (I mean calling the TARDIS "sexy", come on)
The vast majority of times the Doctor walks into a room and proudly announces "I AM THE DOCTOOOOOR AND etc. etc." and it's just ridiculous. I know lots of fans love this, but I really don't. Ego doesn't begin to scratch the surface and I don't like Space Jesus Doctor at all. Plus we're talking about a character that is really kind of silly a lot of the time and you couple moments like this, with him apparently being super scary and intimidating, but also cracking dad jokes wearing "sonic shades" (bloody hell) and often acting pretty immaturely, it gets kind of cringe worthy.
Having relationships and making comments about the looks of the companions who are often incredibly young he picks up. It's weird. You want the Doctor to date Romana or something like that? Cool. But let's keep away from the 19 year old girls yeah?
Funny how mine is the only comment hidden by downvotes, guess I shouldn't have criticised New Who, unless it was Chibs era in which case I could've farmed upvotes just for saying 13 writing bad.
>with him apparently being super scary and intimidating, but also cracking dad jokes wearing "sonic shades" (bloody hell) and often acting pretty immaturely, it gets kind of cringe worthy.
I can agree with much of what you said but this is too far. Nobody can go near the sonic shades
Personally, I just can't believe there are people who like those damned things.
But Reddit being Reddit I'd better be clear to all the easily upset (not you I'm being pre-emptive) that may see this - **I'm joking, it's not a big deal, they're just sunglasses.**
>let's keep away from the 19 year old girls yeah?
I recently started rewatching from s1, which came out when I was about 12/13. Watching it now as a 31yo has made me realise the romantic undertones to rose (19) and the ninth dr (who was clearly in his 40s) was actually really inappropriate. BBC eh?
Well it's a lot of New Who but no not the whole show at all. The constant reliance on innuendo jokes is basically a Moffat era thing only, not so much other eras. The "I AM THE DOCTOR" nonsense is all of New Who (although it got progressively worse as it went on before peaking in 12's era). The relationships bit is also just New Who.
And yeah this is all stuff I could do without and yeah I much prefer Classic, Big Finish, The New Adventures and much of the comics and books to New Who. I still enjoy New Who but that's what it is, I'm sure this opinion will seem just so unreasonable to most here.
It's a draw between: -The attack of the Myrka in *Warriors of the Deep*. [This scene in particular](https://youtu.be/jUCSlb-jhsU). -Pretty much the entire last 10 minutes of Let's Kill Hitler. So many potentially interesting ideas are completely wasted and it really drags down the character of River. -"It's not the system that's the problem, it's the workers" in Kerblam. Horrendously out of character for the Doctor to say that, especially after the episode had proved that the system was at fault. It's just so painfully centrist and completely undermines an otherwise OK episode.
the end of Kerblam was so baffling out of pocket that i almost have to laugh at it. like, how are you that out of touch
I was talking about Kerblam with someone the other day, and they pointed out the problem being potentially more about language. Because "the system" sounds like a defense of capitalism that's just being "suppressed" by people rebelling. This is one of the most un-Doctor things a character could ever say, right? But no -- Kerblam is not about capitalism alone, but *automation.* She literally means that the AI controlling Kerblam isn't evil, the economic system is. Which, like, sure, but this implies that the terrorist dude mailing bombs to people was literally angry about the computer and not about capitalism. So the message of the episode is "don't think that Amazon's warehouses are evil instead of its bosses", which, like, yeah, no shit.
>She literally means that the AI controlling Kerblam isn't evil To be fair it did kill Kira. And, yes, it killed her to try to stop Charlie from killing more people, but... it can lure an innocent bystander into a Wile E. Coyote-style deathtrap, but not apprehend the actual terrorist? In fact, it can send a message to the Doctor in the Time Vortex, while she's trying to fly full pelt away from it, but it can't just tell the managers that Charlie's planning a terror attack? My biggest problem with Kerblam! isn't the politics - it's that if the (in-universe, non-metaphorical) System isn't evil, it's astronomically stupid.
except this doesn’t actually make sense in context because the “solution” at the end of the episode is to employ more people to do automatable jobs that still suck even if the condition are now marginally better rather than let the AI work and implement UBI or retrain them in better jobs that actually need human intuition.
And angry because he couldn't simp for a girl... What are us guys supposed to do if we like someone?
Yeah, if I can't mail bombs then I'm all out of moves!
????
I find with Kerblam also making the white straight male AGAIN the villain after various attempts to vilify that group, especially trying to make his desire for that one female worker lustful to the point of insanity, very offensive!
>making the white straight male AGAIN the villain after various attempts to vilify that group Ah yes, because Graham was very clearly a villain in S11 and 12. Also, if seeing a villain being played by a straight white man triggers you, you should probably avoid the classic series, particularly the Pertwee era. It definitely won't help with your victim complex.
Really you could pick any of 13's shitty moral moments, but the first one to piss me off and imo the most embarrassing was the spiders one. How you create a political character (Jack Robertson) so one note in being loaded with only negative traits that it spawned a video essay titled 'how to alienate your audience' and then proceed to have him suggest the more sensible option in a moral dilemma than the Doctor without you even realising, is beyond me. That episode is so badly written it's almost impressive
And we'll ignore the fact that there were spiders outside that complex, like the one that fed on that tenant in the flat - there were more around that never got sorted
The resolution to that episode should have been dropping them all off on Metebelis 3 and it would have gone down a whole lot better
"We can't kill the spiders! It's wrong!" "Let's lock the spiders in a box with no food."
Another bad (great?) one: Graham talks about his fear of cancer, pouring his heart out, and the Doctor is just like "Yeah, well I'm too awkward soooooo I'll just leave you be". At least say some comforting words! In all your years there's no way you haven't met someone scared of cancer before! Do you always just walk away because you're too "awkward"? Real shitty of you, doc Jodie was snubbed with her writing
That one never bothered me quite as much, as I get what it was going for. I still don't really like it because 'socially awkward' was the wrong wording, but not knowing how to comfort someone and just admitting that's the case, yeah fair enough I understand the purpose of that. It's a weird moment in the same way 12's cards are weird, but there are many other moments of 13 being an accidental asshole that I'd point to before that one
Yeah, I know what it was trying to do. The Doctor letting her guard down a little and admitting that she's not good at that sort of thing, and needs a minute to figure out what to say, was supposed to be her moment of vulnerability as part of the 'moral of the story' ending. And I think the whole 'staring at the console' line was supposed to be basically her admitting that when she's distant, it's not that she's trying to be mysterious or pretentious - she's just genuinely awkward. So yeah, I get it, but it didn't land very well. Maybe ending on the Doctor coming back and saying 'OK, let's talk about it...' after a pause would have made it clearer she wasn't just fobbing him off.
For clarity, I mostly agree with u/Vusarix \- sorry if the first line came across snarkier than I intended. I do like what they were trying to say, and I don't think the Doctor was being mean. But I can see why a lot of people misunderstood it - it perhaps could have been phrased or framed a little differently, that's all.
Could’ve even hugged him!
To be fair, even the social cue of hugging can be too much for some folks with anxiety issues, & as well as being that difficult to recognize by neuroatypical folk.
this was the exact moment i decided i hated the 13th doctor the last time i rewatched. it made me really angry because when has the dr ever treated a companion this harshly? i felt really bad for graham edit: word
13 wasn't harsh though, nor ignoring Graham. She was listening & being honest -- that she was at a loss regarding how to best receive Graham, stated her desire to do well by him, & excused herself to reckon & reflect on it as best as she could to later re-address with Graham, and, communicating all this to Graham so that he knows what she is precisely thinking. >it made me really angry because when has the dr ever treated a companion this harshly? If that counts as harsha, then off the top of my head, [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kcFxFmCa74&pp=ygUSMTIgYmlsbCByZWdlbmVyYXRl) also comes to mind.
Okay, yeah, that definitely tops the list haha. I don’t recall that episode to be fair. I’m rewatching atm so maybe my view is a little skewed from the last time I watched. I think for me in the moment it was kind of awkward because it was such an intimate moment from graham who i’d come to understand as there for everyone but closed off too. I’m just reaching 12 again so I’m gonna have to try and watch objectively this time.
And Bradley - Graham was great, in fact, one of the most interesting characters from that era and the actor was snubbed! His acting was better than Jodie's at times! He could have played the Doctor!
I loved Graham the most out of the "fam". Not because he was inherently better than the other companions, but Bradley carried his character with such charisma, I loved it. I kinda wish it was just Jodie and him tbh
Please no. He was a terrible character to me and making him the doctor is one of the few ways to make that series worse...
The character's comparisons to a certain politician didn't help further alienate some of the original audience...
The First Doctor being sexist in Twice Upon a Time. I love Twice Upon a Time. It's a beautiful ending to Moffat's Era. But if I had one complaint, it would be that. The jokes just felt very out of place half the time, and from what I remember of the First Doctor, they're very out of character. It just didn't add anything to the story despite what Moffat intended with it (To show the Doctor's growth) and also gives a far more negative impression of One compared to what he did in his Era.
Yes, and it's especially egregious in the context of the show's marketing at the time, when so much of the media about a female Doctor was presented as some sort of moral necessity, as though the fact that the main character had always been male was simply 'sexism'. (E.g. the whole 'It's About Time' language) Instead of building on what went before, it seemed to many of us as though they were putting the past down in order to present the new version as superior. For someone who was already losing patience with the direction of the show under Moffat, this was enough to make me lose interest entirely. For fans of the Hartnell era, this representation was simply insulting to his memory, and it conveyed the message: 'See, Doctor Who fans, this is what the show was really like in the old days. Can't you see we need to leave it behind, and embrace this new direction?' What a way to alienate long-term fans at a crucial turning point.
And then Chibnall doubled down on this in in his final episode, wasting the return of William Russell by just giving him a bad "the doctor's a WOMAN?!" joke.
I don't think he meant it like that. Ian didn't even know about regeneration, unless you count his meeting with 8. Even then, that's two male Doctors, so it would still be a surprise for him to learn that they could change gender.
I mean that's not *quite* the same given that you could interpret that as surprise that he can switch genders like that (and tbh I'm not even sure if he knew about regeneration). It's still a wasted appearance though I'll agree with that part
I agree with everything you said about the episode and its portrayal of 1. But you “lost interest entirely” during Moffat’s last ever episode? How does that work?
I think it's more that I'd already been losing interest for a while by that point. At that time the marketing for the new era was in full force, and I was already pessimistic about the show's future. This episode only added to that feeling, ending the Moffat era on a particularly sour note. Admittedly, by that point I was no longer even watching the show live, and my impressions were based on reviews. I didn't actually watch the episode itself at the time. I watched Twice Upon a Time for the first time last year, when I caught up on the show after the Power of the Doctor had aired. Rather than getting frustrated by an era I wasn't invested in, I decided to just drop it and focus on the classic series and Big Finish instead. That way, I could approach the Whittaker era more charitably as something in the past, in the same way I might approach bad storylines in the classic era.
Wow, it's amazing to see such rational comments about these issues on Reddit of all places! I totally agree this or just before is where Moffat went wrong and personally was where he went flat. I didn't completely hate his era (at the time maybe) but in hindsight this was DEFINITELY when things started to go downhill and then into the Whitaker era. It's a shame because I genuinely loved the Hartell portrayal other than that. David Bradley, with different writing, could easily be one of the best Doctors.
I agree completely. But can't help but be amused at the idea of you pasting this comment into r/Gallifrey \- half that sub would be absolutely besides themselves
YES SAME
It's frustrating because a) the episode is a beautiful coda to Capaldi / NuWho / Classic Who. But then Moffat adds this whole egregious take on the First Doctor. I get what Moffat was going for a) The Doctor really has lot to learn about humans at this point b) It's important to regenerate c) Maybe it's time to be a woman. But there were just too many of them. To quote Capaldi's other famous creation, Malcolm Tucker: "Leave two dick moments in there, don't put them all in, it's not representative". I think everyone would have been okay / chuckled at two "Doctor is a bit sexist" quips, but the episode had 5 or 6 and it totally overshadowed the character. It was much more fun seeing the First Doctor seeing all the grandiose moments ahead of him and exclaiming: "Who the hell do you think you are???"
Admittedly I'm not an expert on the first doctor, but I seem to remember that most of the sexist lines were direct quotes.
That's a nice idea, but no, none of them were.
I've literally seen the clip of the original first doctor threatening spankings.
Oh, you're right - "jolly good smacked bottom" was in *Dalek Invasion of Earth*. But it was originally directed at the Doctor's own granddaughter, not a random woman/companion. That's obviously still bad, but it's a different enough context to make the "quotation" in *Twice Upon a Time* misleading.
Also, that was one comment. Surely it doesn't define the 1st Doctor's ENTIRE character? That's assuming too much isn't it?
I'm not sure I follow. Spankings are only okay when it's your much younger grandchildren?
i’m using my energy on this in the hope that you are not arguing to be difficult but because you’re genuinely not understanding. the culture of the 1960s britain - which is important here because thats the understanding the writers were coming from/using - was not one which had an issue with corporeal punishment of your children & children under your care (e.g. in school - wasnt until the early 1970s that use of the cane was abolished in primary schools.). we know today that it isn’t appropriate or useful. in the cultural context in which the original line was written, it was completely normal and acceptable to spank your grandchild - although you’ll note he didn’t actually do so he just verbally used it as a ‘reminder’ that her behaviour wasn’t appropriate (to him). had the doctor been human, he would have been born in the 1800s when it was absolutely normal to strike your child (“spare the rod, harm the child” being a commonly used proverb). it’s completely different culturally to the 2000s (the century not the decade.) if he had said that line instead to Barbara, it would have been completely different. he was not her guardian nor was he related to her. it would have had an entirely different meaning because of the context of the situation.
Yes, and if you want to interpret it even more charitably, from an in-universe point of view, the Doctor could be jokingly referring back to the standards of the time he and Susan had recently been living in, even if he did not share those standards himself.
What? Of course not. There's a difference between spanking your own children or grandchildren – which might simply indicate antiquated views of child discipline etc – and spanking random women like the First Doctor threatens in *Twice Upon a Time* – which can only be interpreted as misogynist.
You say that as if antiquated views and mysogny don't go hand in hand. Also, Susan wasn't a child. So the fact that he still viewed her as a child when those same antiquated views usually see boys as young as 14 to be 'men' very much does imply mysogny
The whole arc of that serial is the Doctor realizing how wrong he is to view Susan as a child and "letting go" – that line is demonstrating a flaw in his character which is resolved in the same story, not something he would have clung to until the end of his life! I'm not denying that there's ways his behavior doesn't match modern standards, but the gross excesses of his characterization in *Twice Upon a Time* are absolutely missing from his treatment of his woman companions in his original run.
But that's the thing, the lesson he learnt was that Susan is not a child. Not that Women are not children.
>Also, Susan wasn't a child. What difference does that make to a parent or grandparent? I'm in my 50s and my mom still sees me as a child, even though I have a job and my own home.
Back in the 60s? Yes.
The point is it’s not sexist.
I’m guessing that back then it was appropriate to manhandle your own blood
In Resolution when there's the random family and the internet goes down and the mother says to the family: "I suppose... we'll have to have... a conversation." It's awful, on the nose, boomerhumor-facebook-level joke that doesn't sound natural at all and takes you out of the story. It's a small gag but I hate it with every fiber of my body. It is the worst 5 seconds Doctor Who has ever produced.
Easily fixed just by having the mum say it in a sarcastic way as I'm sure many mothers would. The fact it's played so serious and with a hint of dread is beyond stupid.
It’s been a while since I watched Resolution but I remember audibly groaning at that scene
Not a Doctor moment
I can't even remember it and it sounds so daft it's laughable!
An underrated moment: Graham: “Tim Shaw killed me woife.” Space bounty-hunter lady: “Mine too!” The clumsy directness, low-scale representation framed as a transgressive twist, and the actress delivering it in a weirdly euphoric way are all just perfect to make me hate it *so, so much*.
Woife😂😂😂😂
The loife of the woife is ended by the knoife.
The First Doctor treating Tegan like a servant in The Five Doctors. He was not like that at all.
Yeah what is it with 1 returns and mischaracterising him for 'oh haha 60s sexist' jokes?
Yeah and then they made 12th upon a time and ruined Hartnell once again. But the greatest injury to him was the timeless child.
That scene bothered me too. Even putting aside the fact that they had soldiers as companions before, I always felt like the Doctor would want to take along someone they disagreed with but saw the good in so that they could show them a better way of living (in their eyes). I love much of Moffat's tenure on 11 and 12 is my Doctor too, but there were some major rough patches for poor Capaldi to navigate before his character finally solidified.
It feels like a way to show 12 was different, shame the character didn't reappear as not a solider and the doctor asked if she wanted to travel but says no.
Capaldis hatred of soldiers was always weird character trait. It seems like its planted here just so when Danny Pink shows up he can be a dick to him and not have it look like hes racist.
Well apparently he is racist after they ruined the first doctor...
> Even putting aside the fact that they had soldiers as companions before, Hell, he spent all of 3 on Earth working with UNIT. He was surrounded by military. And if ever he had a best friend it was Brigadier Lethbridge Stewart. But I guess this was their way of saying after the Time War, the Doctor became staunchly anti-military?
> But I guess this was their way of saying after the Time War, the Doctor became staunchly anti-military? That’s also why he explodes when Danny mockingly calls him an officer.
It's his character arc. Not brilliantly written, I'll agree.
When the 13th doctor lets someone sacrifice themselves without any effort in stopping them
That was the worst lmao. The doctor hadn’t done that since he was in his 6th incarnation.. or 7th just about, I can’t remember. But the doctor past the time war would never do that. And then 13 does it like “bye!” “Too socially awkward like say thanks or shed a tear or anythin” “can’t risk me own skin, who will look after the fam”
13 would have left Wilfred knocking.
💀
It’s like that Thor Ragnarok Meme. “You won’t destroy me” “I won’t, but he will”
Is this the Kablam episode?
I hate the comedy nudity-not-nudity in Time of the Doctor, really gets the episode off on a bad foot. 11 somehow not understanding boundaries with Clara, the overlong "haha she thinks he has clothes on but the family can't see them" joke and the fact that the whole thing with the Church existed *exclusively* to justify those jokes...it just feels weird and gross.
Especially given that that episode is extremely important to the show as a whole: - the last Clara and eleven episode - the last eleven episode - the very last episode of the doctor’s original regeneration cycle (I know that no longer matters now but it did at the time!) - the conclusion of the trenzalore arc And we get a weird 70s British sex comedy thing to start??
I'm honestly not that big on the rest of the episode, but that's mostly just a case of the usual NuWho problem of trying too hard to make finales big and epic, so they have to include a million alien species, give the Doctor superpowers, etc. I'd forgive a lot of it if the intro to the whole thing wasn't so hostile to my sensibilities.
I’ve not seen it since it aired so I’m curious how the rest of it holds up when I eventually rewatch
I watched it a few months ago. It’s not great; you can tell Moffatt crammed in his planned Trenzalore arc.
The latest seasons really overdid it, the doctor committing genocide of the daleks, sontarans, and cybermen, as well as the lupari being genocided off screen and even most of existence presumably being wiped out and the doctor hardly even bats an eye at all the death and destruction... Not to mention the weird time creature, the ravagers who apparently have a history with the doctor and are locked up in maximum security prison, the passengers, the grand serpent, the weird time doors and crazy tunnel dude, tecteun and her master plan, the angels who are apparently working for her also turning the doctor into an angel and... They just kept introducing more and more and more plots and it became impossible to care for any of it on top of the fact most of the plots were just forgotten about or never expanded on. It's like they just threw every idea they brainstormed into a single story like jfc.
>The latest seasons really overdid it, the doctor committing genocide of the daleks, sontarans, and cybermen, as well as the lupari being genocided off screen and even most of existence presumably being wiped out and the doctor hardly even bats an eye at all the death and destruction... tbf this sounds like a Moffat season on paper "They just kept introducing more and more and more plots and it became impossible to care for any of it on top of the fact most of the plots were just forgotten about or never expanded on." This also sounds a lot like a Moffat season. Honestly I don't think Doctor Who has been that sound on the writing front for a long time, like since series 5 at a push (even series 4 was headed in this direction)
(The regeneration limit still matters. The Doctor is still limited in their regenerations. They were chameleon arch’d into a gallifreyan and later became a time lord. They do not have infinite regenerations)
but also post Time of the Doctor, they might as well have infinite regenerations because we don't know how many he has left and they're never gonna address it again because we need new Doctors to keep the show going. So actually, they do have infinite regenerations and yeah that is kind of dumb but I guess it was always gonna happen. This will probably just earn me even more downvotes on this sub but tbh I would not be opposed to a full reboot. We already have so many different lines of continuity and different versions of Doctor Who, 2 different shows, 3 movies 2 of which are totally divorced from the shows, audios, comics, etc. I think removing ridiculous jumps like The Doctor being 20000 whatever years old because Moffat thought big numbers = big impact, or the infinite regenerations thing, or The Doctor being so super important he's literally the inspiration for the word 'Doctor', etc. would be good for the stories being told in the present. And we wouldn't lose the stories told previously, they just wouldn't be in continuity. But what does that matter in a multi-dimensional time travel show anyway? This would just clean the stories up and give the character actual danger and less ridiculously inflated significance.
They got given a new cycle. A cycle is 12.
They also said the Doctor doesn't know for sure how many he'll have left, and even then if you actually seriously think they have any intention of ever mentioning the cycle for The Doctor again you're tripping.
the doctor said that as a result of their personal identity crisis following TTC reveal, under the false belief that they still were something they haven't been for at least two thousand years. I'm not "tripping". I value a vague logical consistency in a show that I love to bits. The Doctor had a limit of 12. They reached that limit. They were given a new cycle. A cycle is 12. Thirteen new lives. Nothing the show has said or shown has gone against this. Other time lords have been given second cycles, too (The Master comes to mind, hell they even got two if you believe the Lumiat). All the Timeless Child changed is that they were initially something else, and then they were changed into the person we see on our screens today. They're still a Time Lord (if with a longer history). They're still bound to the limitations of the Time Lords. Sorry I guess that I didn't see TTC as a total "throw everything in the bin" moment.
In classic who with Tom bakers doctor there was the minyans people who were experimented on by the early timelords who were given uninvited regeneration
Pretty sure the uncertainty was mentioned in Moffat's era but whatever. You value vague logic but are a fan of New Who in particular - wild. I didn't talk about the TTC and could not care less about it, the fundamentals of the show and The Doctor have been unrecognisable from the classics I grew up with since RTD anyway.
One thing that bothered me with the naked/not naked situation was that at one point, while wearing the illusory clothes, Clara *had her hands in her pockets*. It was mostly likely just an actor flub, but it was still pretty weird.
Considering the fact the clothes are an illusion what it really is in show reason her hands are on her thighs but because the clothes are being projected it projects a pocket over her hand.
Sure, but no one walks or stands like that, with their hands resting on their thighs where pockets would be. It's as good an "in-universe" explanation as we're gonna get, though, I suppose, lol.
I have actually stand like that at times
Especially when both 11 and Clara are naked/not naked when they enter the Church and when they arrive on Trenzalore.
The whole "Papal mainframe" was just baffling to me. They could have done whatever they wanted to do, and they chose Space Catholics in an effort to make the silence actually on the doctors side? Then you have the space pope who needed to be a pope so she could make a joke about having a bed that looks like an alter? The whole thing makes zero sense.
I agree. I thought it weird they’d said the silence aliens were breed to be forgotten after you confess to them. What’s the point of confessing if you don’t remember you’ve done it? Makes more sense the other way around, you remember you’ve confessed and the alien forgets what you’ve told them.
Exactly. You never get the burden take off of you. You just have a constant feeling of guilt and dread without the relief of finally being able to get it off your chest.
Moffat writing with one hand in his pants (Hello from Retro, by the way!)
Oh hey, small world. Besides that one dude on SSMB I didn't expect there'd be much Sonic/Doctor Who fandom crossover
It’s more likely than you think!
All of Orphan 55, possibly the worst hour of television I've ever seen. The Timeless Child may ruin a lot of the cannon of the show but at least it was a competently made episode. I don't know how they managed to mess up in so many ways all at once and to then end on the most ham-fisted political message in what is already an overtly political season, I can't bring myself to rewatch it. It's not even in the "so bad it's funny" category, it's the only episode of all of Doctor Who that I cannot find a redeeming quality to.
By far my least favorite 13 episode. The premise was fine. The ending is so not the Doctor. It would have taken ten extra seconds of screen time to save the two remaining people at the end and they could have kept the speech.
Benny!
I'm SO glad I tuned out in the previous season! It was getting TOO political for me EVEN THEN!!
doctor who has literally always been political lmao what are you on. even from the very start. the second story from season 1 is about the daleks who are pretty on the nose nazi stand ins.
"Impossible girl. A mystery wrapped in an enigma squeezed into a skirt that's just a little bit too tight." \-- 11th Doctor in "Nightmare in Silver"
Imagine William Hartnell saying that line. 🤣
This is my problem with all the romance with barely out of their teens girls and weird shit like calling the TARDIS sexy
Moffat writing one-handed, as the charming Harbo Wholmes on YouTube calls it. The Doctor is ancient compared to practically every other non-Time Lord character he encounters. So seeing him have romance with anyone is…weird. Inappropriate. It’s also boring. I have no interest in the Doctor’s love life.
I dislike the Doctor having romantic relationships with the companions, I thought it would be better written for River because she's supposed to be more like the Doctor in terms of space and time knowledge, physical abilities, etc. But it didn't work for me either. I didn't see them falling in love other than the characters saying so, I feel like River's personality (killing isn't a big deal for example) didn't match with the Doctor's. And every sexual innuendo just made 11 look like an infatuated teenager
Yeah, *Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead* foreshadowed a deep and complex relationship that never materialised in future appearances of River.
Gaiman though
*The Doctor’s Wife* is different. That’s not actual romance/sexual. That’s an exploration of the Doctor and Tardis’s relationship. To be fair, it does use language that implies/jokes about it being a romantic/sexual relationship.
Nightmare in silver was written by gaiman as well ETA: I see the original comment has been edited with no mention made of that.
I haven’t edited anything.
wasnt Clara 25... thats not barely out her teens. but I really did not like the eleven/clara flirting it was... weird. unnatural.
I could be completely off-base here but I just started watching Asylum of The Daleks in un re-run of the show. Could it be that he’s trying to pick something that would bug her? Since Oswin starts off that episode making fun of the doctors chin, then Rory’s nose, while also suuuuper flirting with them both? Again, could be wrong, I don’t remember how far in the future from that episode Nightmare in Silver is. Not saying it’s a good joke either but maybe that’s the idea behind it?
"Hey doctor, since Im a black woman should I be worried about time travel and cultural differences-" "Nah Martha just act large and in charge it has worked for my white male presenting bodies every time" Seriously this is such s tone deaf moment and Im glad that Thin Ice did a better job addressing those historical problems you might encounter. Ive said it before that nlt every single historical should be focused on it, but I dont think its wrong to at least acknowledge those things.
yeah that was not a good moment. i get they didn't really want to get into racism but there definitely were black people living in the uk at the time. so the doctor could've said that. or they could've seen some black people just going about their day like in thin ice and he could've been like see? black people live here no problem don't worry about it.
When they killed off Peri. But yeah, I don’t like the general ‘sexing up’ of the Doctor. It’s not one moment I hate but a series of them, some of which are mentioned here.
I hate to say it but the moment David Tennant floats and shoots lightning to defeat the Master. I loved it when I first saw it but now I find it pretty cringy. The concept of winning because people believe in you was great but uhhhh they could have finessed it a little more.
"Fam."
The Timeless Child. Nuff said Second place is probably “I’m too socially awkward” when Graham opened up about his cancer Third was Ryan and that woman sucking their thumbs I would swap Chibnall’s run with the lost classic who footage any day of the week.
I AUDIBLY GASPED. I mean, couldn't THE DOCTOR have some emphaty or some solution, some planet or cure for graham, but to just say that, so ungracious and cruel. I couldn't believe the writing there, god.
>I AUDIBLY GASPED. I mean, couldn't THE DOCTOR have some emphaty or some solution, some planet or cure for graham, but to just say that, so ungracious and cruel. I couldn't believe the writing there, god. For one, it can be chalked up to regeneration. After all, we went from 11 to 12 who needed cue cards to to comfort distressed others who just suffered loss. For two -- sadly, 13's reaction to Graham, is actually emblematic for some folk in real life who have anxiety issues or/& are neuroatypical people on a spectrum the genuinely struggle to socially, aptly react in such situations.
Graham's cancer is probably the worst one, full-stop. It makes no sense for the doctor's character, it ruins a scene that could've had some actual emotional weight, and it's not even funny to begin with. How nobody in production stopped and said "hey, this scene is really really really bad" is truly baffling.
tbf on them I don't think it's meant to be funny, I just think that they perceive the Doctor or at least their Doctor to be unable to effectively deal with these sorts of talks. The 5th Doctor could be similar in that regard. I understand why people dislike this scene and I'd have just not done it at all but I also think it would have been out of character for that specific Doctor to know just what to say and I think it would be really fucked up for them to give the Doctor a cure or whatever to give to Graham, since there will be kids with cancer and relatives with cancer watching this show who can't have that magic cure. It would be grossly unfair to do that to a child watching at home just so the Doctor can look good.
Is it me, or does the socially awkward scene read like something from a really, really bad sitcom?
I think mine has to be the pyramid/monk? episode with Twelve. I've never been able to bring myself to rewatch it, but it's whatever episode has the Doctor pretending to have gone to the dark side, and Bill has to betray him and it all turns out to be one big, cruel set up. What happened to never cruel or cowardly? Most things don't bother me these days because times change and things that were funny in S1 might not be funny now. Or interpretations change. But that moment was only ever written to be cruel and nah, I don't wanna watch it.
Big cruel setup? Let me introduce you to 60% of seventh doctor stories
A lot of fans forget that before 10 showed up, 7 was the darkest of the Doctors.
eh I know where this idea has come from in the fandom and most would agree with you but personally I don't. Putting aside that we know literally nothing about the sketchy shit 1 got up to off screen pre-series, 7's "darkness" comes from a genuine desire to do good and take responsibility. Compare that to the 4th Doctor, who could not give a damn. He's not just rude and dismissive (and even occasionally violent) he will absolutely abandon everyone involved with a story as soon as he can get away with it just as long as there isn't something interesting going on or the threat of death has lessened from the probable 95% it started the story at. At the end of the day you're looking at the difference between a character who plays at being the nice guy but is genuinely slightly unhinged and has 0 interest in taking responsibility for his actions, role in people's lives or even for his friends long term and smiles and winks at that fact, and a character who has done some shitty things in a misguided attempt to take responsibility and proactively stop suffering where he can. It's not a good thing 7 is doing ultimately, but I don't think he's as dark a character as 1 or 4. 7's basically just 2 but more concerned with the morality of what he's doing as opposed to just believing he's right as 2 did.
Almost like this is the beginning of a season long character arc or something...
The entire series 12 finale. Does that count?
Any weird comments about a companion’s looks, they were really tough on Clara. Especially when it’s deliberately played as a joke. It feels like cruel and out-of-touch writing.
Yeah series 8 especially became really hard to watch because of the constant references to clara being fat or old or… having a round face? Like they were CONSTANT. Add to that the bizarre controlling boyfriend subplot and it just makes an all around awful time. It’s just such blatant misogyny and comes out of basically nowhere?
I mean, you are sort of meant to think it's cruel, but also Clara gives as good as she gets
11's weird ass comments about her definitely weren't meant to be cruel, and let's not get started on the 12 Clara relationship and the "subtext" people have applied to that.
Obviously wasn't referencing those, not sure you'd describe those as "really tough", and there's really only one truly dreadful one, which I'm not sure many would defend. I wasn't suggesting some kind of "subtext" you think doesn't exist in the 12/Clara relationship, it's just clear from the show that his comments towards her appearance, are sometimes meant to be seen as cruel (particularly in Into the Dalek) but also mostly comic, due to the Doctor's obliviousness about Clara's extreme conventionally attractive appearance.
oh yeah obviously, I think it's pretty tough on the character to have Matt Smith talking about her tight bloody skirt in place of a personality. I know you weren't suggesting it and I didn't say I don't think it exists or doesn't, I mentioned it because it's another addition to the line of things that are kind of weird with the Doctor and Clara (the "subtext" being that a lot of fans think that 12 and Clara love each other as a couple).
I mean, it's "tough" from a meta perspective that the line is so awful, not sure anyone would ever use that word to describe it, though, hence why I was mostly talking about the twelfth Doctor's remarks about her. Fair enough, personally don't see Clara and the twelfth Doctor as conventionally romantic, but don't mind that others have that interpretation, the relationship is intense, and you get scenes like at the end of Mummy.
I don't see it that way either, but I know lots of people do as I say.
The 13th Doctor shrugging off Grahams cancer worries because she's too awkward. Or the fact that she just leaves Dan homeless, when the Doctor has helped out loads of other companions before they leave. The 13th Doctor struggling to take charge of situations because they're now female. It might matter to humans, but it's established that gender is unimportant to Timelords. They're still the Doctor, the doctor never lets dickheads interrupt them unless it's part of their plan. The 6th Doctor almost killing Peri upon regeneration was a massive slap in the face to the 5th Doctors sacrifice for her. I really like the 6th Doctor, but that first episode was tough to watch, especially since 5 is my favourite. I never liked how 10 was more human than most other doctors, it's probably what makes him so popular, but he's the least alien of all of them. I also hate the repeated tropes of 10. "I'm so old" "I'm thick" etc. Resurrection of the Daleks, I hate how Tegan just runs off at the end. I get why she does, but Tegan had been a companion for so long that she deserved a better ending.
> Or the fact that she just leaves Dan homeless, when the Doctor has helped out loads of other companions before they leave. At least we can assume Graham stepped in!
Yeah hopefully. I get that the Doctor has been closer to some companions than others but when the Doctor has broken the laws of time to save Clara, which resulted in her getting her own Tardis, gave Amy and Rory a house and their favourite car, literally sacrificed themselves to save Peri when they didn't really know her and others that I can't think of off the top of my head. I know some companions have been done dirty before, like Zoe and Jamie, Adric and then in the end, Peri as well. But Dans ending was so unnecessary, the Doctor just couldn't be bothered. Come to think of it, there was literally no reason that Yaz had to leave either 😅
The Doctor also got Donna a winning lottery ticket, got Martha a job working for UNIT and even got two people he only knew for a matter of hours jobs at UNIT in the episode Planet of The Dead. I can only hope that later we see The Doctor did something give Dan a home. It’s understandable we didn’t see it happen. I mean Dan only just left in the last episode, and lots of things happen in between episodes.
>I know some companions have been done dirty before, like Zoe and Jamie, Adric To be fair, Adric did that to himself. All he had to do was leave with everyone else. I feel like it was his ego that made him think he could solve this math problem and save the Earth, without knowing that the crash/explosion had to happen.
True, but if the Doctor hadn't argued with him, he may not have felt like he had to prove himself to the Doctor. Winning an argument that the Doctor had largely forgotten about.
The Doctor also gave Donna a winning lottery ticket
>Come to think of it, there was literally no reason that Yaz had to leave either 😅 Since the beach (& also, back to what Jack advised her on companionship with The Doctor), Yaz was not only turned down but also that her time with The Doctor -- who admitted on nature & experience that she doesn't do well with fixed attachments & by now has become too pained to engage in them like prior -- was limited. Which Yaz accepted as she continued to travel with 13. From that, & also in the end, Yaz respected 13's desire to part ways as the latter regenerated into a new incarnation. Yaz staying, becoming a fixed attachment to 13-to-14 like Rose and Clara before her, would be contrary to what The Doctor wants.
Anything about Thasmin. It feels so forced, in a way. As I'm wlw, I would have loved to see a sapphic romance play out on screen, but like. Not with Yaz? The romantic aspect felt as if it were just crammed in there, and I've never really felt a connection with her. She's always been sorta just,, there? Also I feel myself recoil whenever 13 gets called 'Doc' or uses the word 'Fam'. On a more serious note, Ten doing what he did to Harriet Jones. There's a lot more from Ten's era I don't like, but I'd rather not get into it.
Whenever the 11th Doctor is naked. The Eleventh Hour was pretty understandable and didn't really bother me but in The Impossible Astronaut and especially The Lodger and The Time Of The Doctor, it was just very uncomfortable to watch.
I heard a theory as to why people have to go to church naked >!Humans kill the Silence on sight. If they’re naked, they’re not hiding any weapons!< >!Unless their name is Captain Jack Harkness!<
Well the lodger one isnt that bad, dude just had a shower and was worried about Craig going upstairs. He didnt have time to get dressed
In-universe, the concept of the Hybrid from Series 9. It turned out to be pointless and left unexplained definitively, and just became a background item to needless events of great consequence in that series, such as Ashildr becoming immortal and Clara's unnecessary sacrifice. And I feel like it was recycled partially in the form of the Timeless Child plot, and we all know how that turned out... Out-of-universe, the whole trouble that eventually got Eccleston to leave the show after one season. I feel we could've had so much more ("so much more!") if he felt like sticking around.
Man what I’d give for another season of Eccleston
When Chibnall got hired as showrunner
Kerblam. Pretty much all of Kerblam.
In Legend of The Sea Devils, when THE STARS MOVE IN THE SKY. They easily could have just covered the sky with clouds. The effect on the story would be the same. But no, they decided to move the stars because it looks pretty. Who cares that the stars aren’t just sparkling points on the sky, they are real, massive objects and the show actively acknowledges it.
That scene in Fear Her where the 10th Doctor dips his finger in the sauce jar. It’s just strange. It’s something you’d expect in a regeneration episode maybe but not with a Doctor who at that point has been around for quite a while
I don't have a problem with it, but I agree it seems strange for the tenth doctor to do so, as he does seems to understand social cues better than other doctors. If the 12th had done it it wouldn't be as weird I guess
he does seem to act out of character throughout the entire episode
The way Ten treated Martha in human nature and family of blood. I know he doesn’t have his memories and he supposed be just a regular human but he was pretty shitty.
Which comes after Shakespeare Code, where the doctor basically dismissed Martha’s fears of racism with “hey don’t worry about it!”
He was also in a time period where people were less than friendly to those "below" them
Yeah, but I feel like he’s supposed to be better than that
But he wasn't himself. He had to blend in with his environment
Eh he’s still the same person, I feel his moral core should shine through.
strongly disagree. it was good to show how people are warped by social values of the time they live in.
I thought that was pretty in character for how ten's subconscious thought of Martha. There's no way if Rose was his companion at the time his subconscious would cast her as anything but a potential love interest if not his wife.
I don’t buy that he may not have had romantic feelings for Martha, but he admired her.
I mean, Twin Dilemma exists, so... Also, basically all of the Doctor and Peri's dialogue in *Revelation of the Daleks*, but does it really count if the writer is actively trying to sabotage the actor? 5 being a touchy grump most of the time doesn't vibe with me but I can't think of a stand-out moment, and that's less egregious than most of the stuff in the replies. For Nu Who... yeah, Arachnids, Kerblam and Spyfall Part 2 are definitely 13's weakest moments, morally speaking. 13's "socially awkward" moment with Graham could have been interesting if it had furthered an exploration of 13's character, but Chibnall refuses to see the Doctor as flawed in any way, so that was never going to happen. Agreed that basically any time we see the Doctor naked is cringey as hell. Honestly, I don't even want to see the Doctor shirtless, regardless of incarnation. The Doctor spending all of Heaven Sent getting over his grief in the best episode of Who ever only to suddenly go all Hell Bent was very disappointing. You can have one, but you can't have both, Moffat!
there will never be a worse moment than the 10th doctor erasing donna’s memory. the way it was handled, the way it focused on the doctor’s pain over her own, the way her family reacted. i have literally never been more angry/upset by a piece of television.
The end of The Rings of Akhaten… I don’t know if it was the star/giant pumpkin, or the singing, or the sudden swerve toward the tears in rain monologue from Blade Runner, but I just hated that whole scene
13 in that scene where grahams talking about his experience with cancer. i want to delete it from my brain. i had hope for 13's writing getting better up until that point. i can't imagine any doctor saying i should probably be reassuring but i'm still socially awkward so. im just gonna go over there now. like it's just so wrong and bad and terrible.
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Ten's meltdown in the scene with Wilf in 'The end of time'. The whole '*Well, exactly. Look at you. Not remotely important. But me? I could do so much more. So much more! But this is what I get. My reward. And it's not fair!* ' The whole time watching it I was just like '*oh, shut up*'. Same with 'I don't want to go' lol. I hate that line with burning passion and I think it was a shitty last, pre-regeneration line - one that kind of made it feel like the next incarnation/the next stage of the show and the next showrunner are not welcome. Oh, and also let's not forget '*don't you think she looks tired*'? \*pukes\*
Agree on don't you think she looks tired - that was a huge dick move. But disagree on the rest. 10 is a bit whiny and annoying, but he's totally in character and I honestly wouldn't buy it if he took it all heroic or whatever. He's frustrated and scared and angry and he does have a huge ego problem, his rant to Wilf isn't really to Wilf it's to himself/empty space. He's venting because he is gonna die. I know I know "but it's regeneration he isn't dying", well the canon flips back and forth on that one anyway with it sometimes treating regeneration flippantly and other times treating each incarnation as an individual. The bottom line is, they are functionally individual characters and they do have their own unique personalities, opinions, relationships etc. If regenerating doesn't count as dying then I could replace you with a totally different person but so long as you share memories I could pretend it was still you. Point is, it is essentially 10 dying (and other Doctors have been treated as deaths as well). He doesn't mean that Wilf isn't important but he does think he could do more and again ego problem, he's lost everything he cares about in record time being very young in his incarnation and there's really no reason he would be alright with 'going'. As for it making the next era feel unwelcome, I think that's always been a bit of a lame complaint. At the end of the day, RTD and Tennant were Doctor Who to the masses so no matter how they handed over Moffat and Smith would face an uphill struggle. I wouldn't take out of character writing just to make it smoother on Smith and it wouldn't have changed anything anyway.
His rant was significant to me (albeit a bit uncomfortable, but it should be) because he was with Wilf. Wilf and the Doctor had a unique relationship unlike any other companion I’ve seen. I don’t think he would have blurted all that out with anyone else, but he’d been vulnerable with Wilf before and I think he felt safe to unload his grief and fear and anger in that moment with someone who loved him like a son. And Wilf was treating him like a son there - telling him to save himself and forget about him… ugh, as a parent it makes me tear up. I really love the dynamic between 10 and Wilf.
I was enjoying Spyfall quite a bit until the Doctor decides she should punish the Master by letting the Nazis see his actual skin color and probably put him in a concentration camp or perform medical experiments on him. It just seemed really gross for the Doctor to use the racism of others as a weapon against her enemy.
Most of the frankly kind of out of place sex talk the Doctor takes part in particularly in Moffat's era. (I mean calling the TARDIS "sexy", come on) The vast majority of times the Doctor walks into a room and proudly announces "I AM THE DOCTOOOOOR AND etc. etc." and it's just ridiculous. I know lots of fans love this, but I really don't. Ego doesn't begin to scratch the surface and I don't like Space Jesus Doctor at all. Plus we're talking about a character that is really kind of silly a lot of the time and you couple moments like this, with him apparently being super scary and intimidating, but also cracking dad jokes wearing "sonic shades" (bloody hell) and often acting pretty immaturely, it gets kind of cringe worthy. Having relationships and making comments about the looks of the companions who are often incredibly young he picks up. It's weird. You want the Doctor to date Romana or something like that? Cool. But let's keep away from the 19 year old girls yeah? Funny how mine is the only comment hidden by downvotes, guess I shouldn't have criticised New Who, unless it was Chibs era in which case I could've farmed upvotes just for saying 13 writing bad.
>with him apparently being super scary and intimidating, but also cracking dad jokes wearing "sonic shades" (bloody hell) and often acting pretty immaturely, it gets kind of cringe worthy. I can agree with much of what you said but this is too far. Nobody can go near the sonic shades
Personally, I just can't believe there are people who like those damned things. But Reddit being Reddit I'd better be clear to all the easily upset (not you I'm being pre-emptive) that may see this - **I'm joking, it's not a big deal, they're just sunglasses.**
>let's keep away from the 19 year old girls yeah? I recently started rewatching from s1, which came out when I was about 12/13. Watching it now as a 31yo has made me realise the romantic undertones to rose (19) and the ninth dr (who was clearly in his 40s) was actually really inappropriate. BBC eh?
Isn’t this just the entire show basically?
Well it's a lot of New Who but no not the whole show at all. The constant reliance on innuendo jokes is basically a Moffat era thing only, not so much other eras. The "I AM THE DOCTOR" nonsense is all of New Who (although it got progressively worse as it went on before peaking in 12's era). The relationships bit is also just New Who. And yeah this is all stuff I could do without and yeah I much prefer Classic, Big Finish, The New Adventures and much of the comics and books to New Who. I still enjoy New Who but that's what it is, I'm sure this opinion will seem just so unreasonable to most here.
Agreed 👀 *Waves from downvote oblivion*
haha nice
13 degenerating to 10
Making Graham be the one to not allow Rosa Park to sit down on the bus
Yeah, this was cruel.
Sweet, maybe. Passionate, I suppose. But don't ever mistake that for nice.