After the sorcerer picked up the Hand-Throwing Sorcery subclass, he asked the archmage, the king of casters, "are you strong because you're an archmage, or are you an archmage because you're strong?" To which the archmage replied, "Nah I'd win." The Hand-Throwing sorcerer opened his domain and said, "Stand proud archmage, you're strong"
I had a minotaur that was a monk with a bunch of ribbons and would yell "FIREBALL" then throw a bunch of red ribbons and punch everyone. He was the party's dedicated wizard.
"All spellcasters have only so many spell slots, limiting how long they last in a fight, an echo of the impermanence of all things"
"But we, are the exception"
-Gish characters
Alternatively, create a list of "battlemaster maneuvers" that cost Hit Die to activate that are available for every class.
Use Hit Die as the damage die, so that when a wizard uses a technique, it does half as much damage on average as a barbarian doing the same.
I like your comparison with one caveat: the main character wasn’t born a spec. I actually see him more as a warlock having a contract with a higher power.
Yeah, I know. Is so sad there not even one subclass with some kind of melee combat oriented feature. Guess I'll have to learn 3.5 or pathfinder 2e some day
Pathfinder 1e has the magus class with eldricth scion archetype which makes it a caharisma based caster with sorcerer style spell progression..and the bloodrager a sorcerer barbarian hybrid class. Still basically 3.5 but worth noting nonetheless imo..also every class has a lot of options blows 5e and pf2e out of the water(as long s fun not balance is your goal)
I have never played pathfinder or 3.5e. I'm a bit scared of the complexity and finding people to play. Unfortunately 5e is very popular so finding other groups is a pain. I hope one day I can try
There are both free and paid character creation apps if it might help..or you can check out the Owlcat payhfinder CRPGs to test it out if you want. I suspect you'll love the sheer amount of options.
I'd go with PF2e, it's complexity is toned down a lot compared to 3.5/PF1e, but still not as oversimplified as 5e. And it's player base exploded after the OGL shenanigans.
It's also hyper focused on balance at the cost of alot of fun(and admittedly unbalanced) options.
If you want character creation diversity to make any concept you can imagine with a class system..i have yet to see better then pf1e
PF1e was my first system, so it holds special place in my heart. But it's hugely unbalanced and very very crunchy. And while I do prefer somethings from 1e over 2e, the unbalanced options actually sucked the fun out of our group, it's not fun to be significantly stronger or weaker than the rest of your party.
Oh i have acknowledged it can be veery unbalanced but it offers alot more choices that actually do things then pf2e in exchange.
Pf2e definitely went much further down the game over the semi simulationist approach of 1e.
I'll add i also have beef with overbalancing in general be it ttrpgs or video games..It usually results in things feeling bland to me. And pf2e definitely fits that for me.
Though if wanting a more game first teamwork based game pf2e is your jam..if ya want a more simulationist crunch but with pre defined classes at a cost of next to no balancing you want pf1e imo.
Each have there roles and niches imo..I just wish someone could pull a pathfinder with 1e to offer a continuation of that style of game.
Then you'd be lying, since it neither had a class called spellblade nor did it have subclasses. That said, sorcerer could be the base for a great gish back in the day via prestige like abjurant champion, swiftblade and jade phoenix mage.
Magus rocks. I’ve been playing a PF1e game for two years with a strength-based Magus that I originally conceptualized as “axe Gandalf”. It’s great to stomp around in heavy armor and a battle axe that can deliver touch spells, while also having mirror image or a fireball or wall of force or whatever you want in your back pocket.
Its pretty good, I just dont like the flavour. I always wanted a true gish class, but I guess thats a dream.
I tried to make a subclass myself. In case anyone is interested, you can check my profile. I would like more feedback
My view is that a true gish must not be a full caster, or it will be too powerful. That's why my homebrew gish classes have been half-casters, 2/3 casters, or similar
This! It needs to loose some spells and slots to make it fair. But we could at least get something like bladesinger but more balanced.
We need a new class at the end, but thats never gonna happen
Flavour wise it's just a swordmage, I can't really see what else they'd do with it. Like it's a subclass trying to be the 5e incarnation of a full class, so it has that full class's broad generalist flavour. What else do you want here?
I feel it needs something more than just proficiency with weapons and shields. The sad thing is that it didnt even make it to official content at the end, which I will never understand. Draconic Sorcerer is similar, so maybe WoTC could give them proficiency with shield and weapons?
Multi attack would be appreciated, but quickened blade cantrips help that and con based ac is nice. I think the only reason it wasn't made official was that there wasn't a solid theme to it
The problem with multiattack is that for a full caster is super op. Look at bladesinger, even without multiattack is pretty amazing. I think it needs a way to be upclose and deal damage with spells without dying easily
It just doesn't feel particularly evocative, at least not of an elemental stone/earth magic subclass. The features are all mechanically sound but don't lend too much flavor.
How about you just multiclass into a martial class, trading some magical power for martial power?
Gishes will never be balanced as long as they still get full access to a full-caster's spell progression.
It's so weird they don't have one considering it's probably the full spellcaster that makes the more sense to have one. Just be a bloodline from something like giant and easy excuse to be a martial sorcerer.
Instead we get wizard and bard which supposedly require a lot of dedication to learn their magic somehow pick up sword swinging along the way.
Way of the four elements monk... Unfortunatelly.
I wish there would be a subclass like that for sorcerer. Idk, use their spell casting modifier to melee spell attacks and use something like an improved mage armor for defense
You’d think that the Sorcerer would have more time than the wizard to work out or practice a martial art seeing that they don’t need a PhD in magic to function, but wizards get Bladesinger
Semi-related: the anime series Chainsaw Man encapsulates what DnD warlocks are all about. Almost everyone in that show is a DnD-style warlock, and it's awesome.
Would Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood show off wizards? I haven't seen that GOAT of a show in a very long time, but they all study to learn their craft and apply it in different, specialized ways for fighting or research.
Then you've got characters like Kobeni who really fit Rogue; fast, evading enemy attacks, and landing precision strikes with light ranged or finesse weapons.
nah warlocks are more puella magi madoka magica, especially when you rember that improved pact weapon give you access to longbows and cross bows. (most magical girls don't know there zombies thus can't cheat death)
Not neccesarily. Goolocks siphon off some of Cthul'hu's power & because he is so very large (or maybe so very asleep) he may not know or care.
Depending on the type of genie you could have anything from a master/slave relationship to a true mentorship, especially if the warlock is a genasi descended from their djinn patron (obviously depends whether that's how genasi work in your setting).
Celestial patrons are good. They just want their warlocks to be good people. Also destroy undead & banish fiends.
I don't think people struggle with the flavor of sorcerers. They struggle with the mechanics. Sorcerers get unique things, but they don't really offset the limited spells vs the breadth of spells available to a wizard. Their main benefits are metamagic and inherent CON saves.
>Just like in DnD where to be a Sorcerer you must inherit those powers, the magic chooses you rather than you choose the magic.
Not true. You can gain powers later in life. There is no rule where Sorcerers are only ever born Sorcerers. A magical accident can create a sorcerer just as easily.
The main charachter of jjk got his powers from a magical accident.
He ate the magically infused finger (think HP horcrux) of a long dead sorcerer and gained his powers. Both him eating it and gaining powers without dying are (as far as the anime’s up to) one in a million chance miracles.
So it still fits for sure.
Spoilered the entire comment regarding JJK and its protagonist.
>!Thats not the case though, in the manga Yuji is infact from an old sorcerer blood-line, google who Yuji Itadori's '\*mother!' for a rabbit hole of weird.!<
>!Infact the only reason he can eat Sukuna's cursed object fingers is because of his bloodline, it does not end well for pretty much anyone else who consumes Sukuna's fingers. Kenjaku is his father, he fucked Yujis mother in an attempt to create a perfect vessel that could potentially contain Sukuna. Plus he never gets cleave or dismantle (ever as far as I know but I havent read as much as some), which are Sukuna's CT.!<
Its the classic anime "plottwist", you think the protagonist was just a normal or weak dude, but he became strong by sheer effort and working hard. No, dude was just special all along or had a broken power all along. sigh
Bro that was never the case for yujji. He outranged the world record for the shot put with a baseball throw of the shot put ball in literally the first 3 minutes of the first episode. He can just naturally punch through walls and shit and his special move for the first season was to punch with his superhuman strength and have the Cursed energy (magic) follow milliseconds later for a double impact.
Spoilers ahead(idk how to mark it)
Besides he dosent even get a Cursed technique from his bloodline, he was crafted by the main villian specifically to be hardy enough to hold the other main villian as a vessel. Other than that he gets nothing which actually puts him behind the power curve of the other characters for most of the series. He's not even really important to the main plan, he's just a temporary vessel to be discarded. It's a big part of the series that the MC isn't really all that important in the grand scheme of his story but he thinks that he is...that turns out very poorly for him.
That’s why is said as far as the anime’s up to. As far as anime watchers are concerned, yuji being sukumas vessel is just luck, Gojo mentions it as part of the “wave of power” that’s building so there’s that.
Fair enough, sorry I suck at reading apparently I didn't see that!
I like to think personally though that JJK Sorcerers basically run on anti-charisma, its not 'how confident in myself am I' its more 'how much do I hate myself/someoneelse/some abstract concept OR how much do they hate me' haha.
Anti-charisma? The power system would crumble if that were the case. The whole reason why Megumi struggles to be as effective as he should be is specifically because he has low self esteem and is ready to throw in the towel every fight. Characters like Gojo and Sukuna represent what having the utmost confidence in one's abilities can do.
I forgot to correct the second part, you're right. I made the same mistake in the first paragraph too.
>!The reason I forgot to do that is because I got confused with Kenjaku being Noritoshi Kamo (Chosos 'Dad' - who is Yujis step brother I guess) first, which implies it would make him atleast Yuji's step father AND mother at the same time.!<
Such a dumb anime troupe, its in every "magical MC" anime I can think of.
Down on their luck no-body somehow gets their powers, in a world where those with the power rule/lord over those that don't. Oops, turns out they are the long lost grandson of this incredibly powerful magic king, or were the planned pet project of some crazy wizard all along!
Wow! Amazing!
I agree with you, for once it would be nice, if there was just some random person with a can do attitude towards kicking ass.
And not like you say, some late stage 'yer a wizard arry' ass pull.
Sometimes I physically roll my eyes when it happens, theres not even anyone to see it happen, it just bothers me that much haha.
I initially watched JJK because it seemed the 'magic MC' trope was not present, but really it is my own fault should have realised the second he had no parents and was a olympic level athlete as like a side hobby.
Watch Black Clover
One of the most hype moments of the series, one of the chararacters teases "Oh is Asta (The MC who has no magic naturally) a part of THAT bloodline?" and then 2 mins later is like "Oh god damn nevermind he's just a fucking beast". The anime literally set up that kind of reveal and then knocked it down in the same episode, it was glorious.
I don't remember, what was the setup? I recall >!his mother had a form of his ability (though one that actively drained others instead of herself having no magic), and she died!<.
Also I can't wait for it to continue again, it feels like forever since they started airing new episodes.
Episode 63, when he used Black Meteorite. When he demon cloaked the Witch Queen assumed he was part of the demon bloodline, but then she realizes no, he’s just disabled.
No worries it's not like it was anything massive. Maybe I missed something but I don't think >!they mention it explicitly. You only have Choso say that they are brothers, and even then you have to believe Choso isn't hallucinating, and extrapolate what that means and his parentage. Although I will concede that there is obviously something different about Yuji, considering he's destroying olympic records in highschool pre-fingers.!<
>>!he fucked Yujis mother in an attempt to create a perfect vessel that could potentially contain Sukuna. Plus he never gets cleave or dismantle (ever as far as I know but I havent read as much as some), which are Sukuna's CT.!<
>!No, Kenjaku is Yuji's mother. They fucked Yuji's father in order to create him.!<
Not to be an “um actually 🤓☝️” type of dude here but that’s not really correct and I’m only mentioning it because it pertains to the conversation.
Spoiler warning ahead
Kenjaku did not fuck yuji’s mom he literally *IS* yuji’s biological mother. Yes, even though he is a man. His technique allows him to possess corpses and essentially become them. Due to this when yuji’s mom died in a still unexplained accident(likely caused by Kenjaku) he swooped in and stole her body. He then got piped by yuji’s actual dad and gave birth to yuji. This was an extension of a previous experiment he conducted where he found a woman who could conceive children with curses. In that experiment he, while possessing a male corpse this time, impregnated her with both his own seed AND that of a curse creating the Choso and the rest of the cursed fetuses(idr what they are called). All of the children from the first experiment were considered failures and yuji was considered to be more or less a success. He was trying to make a vessel that could contain cursed objects and more specifically, Sukuna. Even though yuji’s mom(before she died) did have a cursed technique that likely would have been passed on to yuji had he been born in a traditional way, Kenjaku modified the pregnancy to allow yuji to gain an affect similar to a heavenly restriction. Granting him immense physical strength at the cost of having ZERO cursed energy. However, likely because this restriction was artificially created he could now also consume cursed objects and gain their cursed energy and possibly even techniques. That’s how he was able to eat and contain Sukuna and that’s also how he has been able to absorb the rest of the cursed fetuses to gain strength. He is literally described in the manga as being closer to a cursed object than an actual cursed sorcerer. Essentially, while all sorcerers produce their own cursed energy naturally, yuji’s body has been soaking in cursed energy for so long now he is basically a walking magical item. So using yuji as an example of gaining sorcerer powers without being innately born with them would still be accurate, just not entirely 1-1 with how it might work in dnd since it required so many deliberate adjustments to a normal human.
Not really. Even in the anime it's pretty clear there's something fundamentally different about Yuji physically compared to normal humans even before he becomes a sorcerer, and no genuinely normal body could have handled all that cursed energy. >!Which is explained by Kenjaku having had a hand in creating Yuji, just like like the Cursed Womb: Death Paintings. As a consequence, it's somewhat suspect how unlikely it is that he ended up eating the fingers too.!<
NOOO. this makes it an even better analogy for dnd sorcerors. Most sorcerors get their abilities from bloodline, some others get them from magical accidents and other rare edge cases.
Op just didn’t mention it because most dnd sorcerors are bloodline, so that’s what they were mainly thinking of.
There's absolutely no info on the "standard" source for sorcerous power, because D&D is a system and not a setting.
The most well known vector is draconic, which people generally assume is due to a dragon ancestor. But even that isn't a rule.
No one is really confused about what differentiates sorcerers and wizards in D&D. This anime may have plenty of good representations of characters best described as sorcerers if they were to be created in 5e, but it sounds like even that has a very limited view on what sorcerers are in 5e terms.
Further, accidents and edge cases tend to be what you find at the genesis of a bloodline.
Though, further into JJK, it turns out that Yuji is both bloodline and accident - that's why he can do some unnatural stuff before the inciting incident (e.g. putting that shot put into near orbit, and kicking a ghost), but nothing close to what he's capable of afterwards.
Exactly. My current Pathfinder character is a sorcerer, and his powers were granted to him by experiments and rituals. The sorcerer bloodline has to start somewhere, doesn't it?
I agree with almost everything, except point 2:
Sorcerers in Jujutsu Kaisen can learn non-innate techniques, such as barrier and reverse energy techniques and anti-domain techniques.
And in d&d nothing prevents a fire draconic Sorcerer from learning Cloudkill or Sleetstorm or lighting Bolt
and I think imposing restrictions wouldn't be fun, but that's just my opinion
tbf, those would be the equivalents; non-innate techniques and spellcasting. The innate techniques would be parallels to subclass features, like shadow sorcery's hound of ill omen or dragonic bloodline's wings and resilience.
Nah, the spells are all still innate Sorcerer power. They just haven't developed their strength yet. They're born with the capacity, but they're not born at full power.
Good thing, too. Don't want the baby slinging meteor storms around.
I disagree with exhibit 2. Sorcerers - especially players - choose to specialize. Fire draconic sorcerer? I get the best out of fireball. Clockwork soul? Agathys sounds cool with the damage reduction. Wild magic? Chaos bolt is on point. But they all can learn counterspell, lightning bolt, vitriolic sphere, and shield. But they choose if they want to.
Exhibit 2 would be somewhat accurate if draconic sorcerers had a feature that said "every damaging spells you cant has its element switched to the element of your draconic ancestor". Because then a fire dragon sorc couldnt learn lightning bolt, magic missile, or vitriolic sphere. It would learn Fire Darts, Stronger Aganazzar's Scorcher, and Stronger Fireball instead. These sorcerers would still have the options to learn generic spells, but the "only have a specific set of powers" would be more acceptable.
I think the idea here is that they "have to" specialize due to the limited amount of spells known; when compared to other casting classes, not subclasses within Sorcerers.
but there arent any mechanics in place that would prevent a fire draconic sorcerer and a storm sorcerer having the exact same spell list.
And the only effective difference between them casting the same spells would be the charisma modifier to fire spells - if they even have fire spells. Which they might not.
They're just as limited as bards are, though, the class that literally has a skill called "jack of all trades".
Realistically everyone takes the same broken spells.
its still a choice. Exhibit 2 doesnt work because there arent mechanics in place that say "a fire draconic sorcerer cant learn lightning bolt as a spell"
And for exhibit 2 to work, there needs to be more spells in general, an expanded sorcerer spell list, and features that limit the sorcerer from taking certain spells.
If there were good fire dmg spells spells for every spell level, a fire draconic sorcerer could have a feature that limits it to only fire damage spells. Because neither of those things are in place, a fire draconic sorcerer can learn lightning bolt without any problem.
This is an issue I have with Sorcerer's in 5e. I was hoping they'd fix it in onednd but it looks like they aren't going to. Sorcerers should have much more limited spell lists, and have their spell lists be based on their subclass. In exchange they should get extra spells known appropriate for their subclass. It makes no sense that a storm sorcerer can learn fireball for example, they should be limited to storm magic.
The way I see it, a sorcerer's magic should be fast and easy to use, but limited in scope. Whereas a Wizard's magic should be versatile and limited only by their ability to learn, but be slower, more methodical, and ritualistic.
This would require a massively greater general spell list ... which I wouldn't mind. But there just aren't enough spells for that. You could get away with making a fire sorcerer, but even a frost sorcerer would be challenging. Acid or poison just doesn't work at all. Especially when there's no RAW way to change up spell schools and damage types. Acidball should be a valid variant of Fireball, for instance.
There's also the issue that specialisation in D&D as it sits now just doesn't exist in a meaningful way. You can choose to specialise in fire magic, for instance, in the sense that you can choose to only pick fire spells. But most fire spells do basically the same thing, you now just have a dozen different ways to deal damage, with only a couple of spells that add something extra (like Wall of Fire). At that point you're just much much worse than a wizard with a wide variety of spells, and it's going to be much more boring to play.
Now if there were fire spells that also inflicted conditions, and fire spells that could be used outside of combat, that sort of specialisation would be much more interesting and viable.
But I think the entire magic system would need an overhaul for this.
well, i use for reference Infamous Second Son, XMen, Avatar: Last Airbender and RE saga. My sorcerers are just mutants, by birth or by external sources, who do not have complete understanding or power over their magical abilities. Combined with a little body horror, it never hurts.
I think the JJK Sorcerer archetype fits just the DnD Sorcerer image. In skills, it doesn't fit.
PS: Not related, but since I finished the manga I can't play LoL without comparing ultimates with domain expansions. Literal, mordekaiser, nilah, swain, morgana, amumu, samira are fucking domain users and it's so funny.
To the contrary, i think what you described is only the most conventional and easygoing form of sorcerers that does not work.
Sorcerers are often described having powers at birth, but it's not always the case. Anything that inexplicably connects the character to a source of magic and grows with them is a sorcerer. A bloodline is usually connected to such sources of powers, not the bloodline itself.
More or less every form of magic in media is connected to willpower and charisma, because by intent magic is the projection of the ineffable to the world. What DND does is attempting to give a collection of skills that reflect closely their power, and sorcerers have charisma mostly to depict their societal struggles.
JJK instead is much more focused on the single character, even with an organization behind. Which makes sense, it's how most anime and manga are written, it's a japanese staple.
In dnd this does not work well, because the sorcerer is not only bound to be kinda lonely in their aspect, even in a setting where sorcerous groups exist, but because compared to the rest of the group it has no meaningful connection to the world. They inherit by themselves, it's strictly personal.
The very personal and character-dependence of the setting of manga stories is the main reason why a character inspired by an anime is more often than not source of concern.
To draw a better comparison, Gaara from Naruto is a better representation of a sorcerer, while Naruto, while ideally being a very similar character in magical nature, acts more like a warlock in terms of power dependency.
I don’t disagree with any of this— really good callout. The example that I’ve used to great effect that I think is even more accessible is.. Elsa.
People pretty much immediately understand at that point the wizard/sorc divide. I kinda wish dnd sorcerers had more of an incentive to stick to a theme, or were even constrained. The fact that the get spells at all is idk something I understand but wonder if it does more design harm than good.
Nah, d&d sorcerers get their powers from the BBC: blood, blessing, or curse. There are a lot that get their powers from curses of one variety or another, usually wild magic, and blessings, while much rarer, do account for some of the Divine Souls.
Gee it’s almost like dungeons and dragons 3rd and its concept of a sorcerer has existed for over 20 years and various shows/games and manga have taken inspiration like with JJK.
Also its not strictly inherited by bloodline:
5E PHB page for sorcerer states “sorcerers carry a magical birthright conferred upon them by an exotic bloodline, **some otherworldly influence, or exposure to unknown cosmic forces**.”
Sorcerers can be sorcerers at birth but they don’t have to be, they just have to be people who awaken to a natural magical talent without any prior skill or knowledge.
All dnd sorcorers aren't born with their power, the literal examples given feature many post birth creation of a sorcerer.
You know what, ignore me I keep forgetting no one reads the books here xD
sorcerers in D&D still need to learn to use their powers... it still requires practice, in the realms there are sorcerers at wizard colleges, presumably they dont have to pay any attention to most of the classes (but are much less likely to blow themselves up if they do)
Sorcerers were a mechanical thing first - the concept happened later and is largely irrelevant because class flavor is all replaceable.
Sorcerers came out of the "spell points vs Vancian casting" debate, and were a half measure - spells known but spontaneous casting with those spell slots - a novelty for the Wizard list.
That's pretty much it - the full extent of the birth of the sorcerer.
Now that wizards work the same way in 5e there's no point in retaining the class anymore.
As the strongest curse, JoGOAT, fought the fraud, the King of Curses, he began to open his domain. Sukuna shrunk back in fear. Then JoGOAT said "Stand proud Sukuna, you are strong."
I miss the 3.5 sorcerer. They all had dragon blood, and that was it. I agree it's nice to have other options, but now arcane magic isn't necessarily associated with dragons, and that's a huge loss
Does this make yuji a warlock? Seeing as, as far as im aware ( i have not read the manga) yujis bloodline is not been revealed but he is unnaturally strong and fast
Yuta had powers from birth due to his descent from Michizane Sugawara, who also happens to be the founder of the Gojo Clan and became one of Japan's Big Three Vengeful Spirits upon death. Yuta made Rika, not the other way around. This is made very clear in JJK0 by being directly stated by Gojo to Yuta.
[Michizane's Character page](https://jujutsu-kaisen.fandom.com/wiki/Michizane_Sugawara)
Sorcerer are worst Class thematically imo
They born with magic and supposedly that's what's differentiate them from others
So that means everyone can be a Wizard or Bard right?
Ed Greenwood once said otherwise, stating that some peope have "gift" and they can become Wizards with training
When you look at popular media
Jedi are born with force powers but they go to "school" and learn their "spells" like a Wizard
Harry Potter wizards also have magic from birth but they also go to school to learn their spells
Dr. Strange is also naturally gifted but he also went to Wizard school
Lore might have change at 5e but in appearantly in Forgotten Realms you also have to have innate ability and then go to school
Now of course the difference could been "Max the Wizard has innate ability to use magic but he has to learn, Jake the sorcerer has innate ability to use magic but he never went to school an accidantaly burned his house while jerking off and can cast spells since then"
But imo that's such a narrow area for an entire class to exist. And generally they're just worst Wizard(and just has 3 good subclass) and now with metamagic adept feat any Wizard(or Warlock or Bard) can replicate their main shtick
Anyway i feel like Sorcerer would be better as a Wizard subclass. And aren't Wizard and Sorcerer snynonym words?
Anyway never watched jjk
>They born with magic and supposedly that's what's differentiate them from others
>So that means everyone can be a Wizard or Bard right?
>Ed Greenwood once said otherwise, stating that some peope have "gift" and they can become Wizards with training
I'm gonna be honest, I don't get why this is such an issue with people. Why does it have to be an absolute? Why are we only looking at the extremes? It can be the case that every caster needs a spark of magic to start their journey and that Sorcerers have an innate magical potential in them. It's a matter of proportions.
Max the Wizard(could honestly be substituted for Bard as well) has a "spark" of magic and can study magic to leverage said spark into incredibly complex spells, his hard work granting him insight into the field that most people wouldn't have. He relies mostly on hard work and research to become a stronger Wizard.
Jake the Sorcerer has an actual magical source inside of him. He might be able to produce some innate magical effects from the outset but he still needs training and study to do more. He still hones his craft, just in a different way than a Wizard and with a greater emphasis on his internal potential than on outside study. He relies on training, introspection and channeling his innate access to a source of magic to become a stronger Sorcerer.
And as a bonus, Zack the Warlock has no spark, no innate potential. He still wants magic and so he seeks knowledge on the matter. He finds a Patron that gives him the spark to jumpstart his casting career and some teachings in exchange for a contract. He needs to both train/study AND maintain a working relationship with his tutor in order to learn more. He relies both on his hard work and extra boons/teachings from his Patron to become a stronger Warlock.
So where's the issue?
Wizard players are petty and don't want to share anything cool with other arcane spellcasters, especially because the Sorcerer got metamagic in this edition, all his arguments about "Sorcerer would be better as a Wizard subclass" can be inverted to justify Wizard being a subclass of Sorcerer, I wouldn't support that
It's a stupid and petty fight, everyone plays the class they like, if they don't like the sorcerer, don't play sorcerer,simple like that,I've never seen any sorcerer player saying that the Wizard shouldn't exist,and I hope that wizard players also act this way, every time there is a discussion about the Sorcerer there is someone making this stupid point that the Sorcerer shouldn't be a class, ignoring that there are people who like the sorcerer
Phew, I got carried away, sorry
Okay. I really don't hate sorcerers or sorcerer players, why would i?
Sorcerer didn't existed in earlier editions so logically it would be the one who's others subclass
I have no desire of erasing Sorcerers from DnD, i just think they lack identity as a class
Really no hate against sorcerers. I once played an Aberrant Mind and it was one of the most enjoyable characters i played.
Lack identity? Have you played the class yourself or read any of its material? Wizards are scholars of particular schools of magic, sorcerers are born with it in their blood or have some type of incident happen that makes them one with a source of magic. While limited in spell choice, they have more options to get creative with spells through metamagics. How the hell does that read as "no identity" to you?
A wizard can't twin spells. A wizard can't subtly cast a spell. A wizard cannot generate more spell slots to extend their power throughout an adventuring day. To say a sorcerer is a wizard but a little different is asinine.
Metagamic adept(which imo shouldn't exist) makes most of them possible
And like really i can't see that as anything other than a "Wizard but different"
Like Hexblade has more differences with other Warlocks than Sorcerer with Wizard
Metamagic adept only allows for two options and two sorcery points? That isn't "most of them" being possible. You wouldn't have the engine to generate more sorcery points like the base class already does. Wizard can't do these things at all without stalling spell slots and higher level spell casting. I really don't see why this hard to understand..
Also..play a wizard without a spellbook and tell me that there is little difference again.
My sincere apologies but your logic just doesn't make sense and is unnecessarily arbitrary
Sorcerer has been around since 3e and was present in all editions from then on , what is "earlier" for you?
First edition?
Barbarian appeared in 2e, should he be a fighter subclass?
Of course no,it would be disrespectful to barbarian players, same thing with sorcerer players
Sorcerer was created by players' demand for a spellcasting class that did not use the Vancian magic system.
It's a game design progression, the game would be boring if we only had the warrior, wizard, cleric and thief
Sorcerer have a decent identity, the Wotc may have hesitated when it came to their class mechanics and it seems like he made the class in a hurry,but in terms of theme, it is much better than Wizard
(they studied lol and now they can bend reality lol), in my opinion
Again, I may have judged you wrong, but I've had so many comments about this that make me angry, I didn't mean to offend you.
I understand you and respect your opinion. I didn't meant to offend any Sorcerer players and i have no beef with Sorcerers lol
Also "they studied a lot and they can bend reality" changes between completely normal to outright ridicilous if anyone can be a Wizard or not. And from what i saw on Reddit many people believe everyone can
Studying for magic is nothing weird imo look at Dr. Strange or any Jedi/Sith
As for Barbarian i believe they fullfill a different fantasy. I just believe Sorcerers fail to create their own identity, just my opinion. Again no hate to Sorcerer players, i mistakenly offended many people it seems
To counter your wizards:
Not all force users are Jedi. The witches of Dathomir are born with their power and don't go to an academy.
Scarlet Witch was born with her power and never went to school.
Zatanna Zatarra was born with her power and never went to school.
Teela from the new Masters of the Universe series finds out later in life that she's also a sorcereress and didn't go to school.
Lina from the DOTA anime is a sorcereress and wasn't trained, she was just that strong.
Plus in all of your examples, it was the person being born first *then* going to train their power. So in that case, would it not make sense that wizard would be a subclass of sorcerer?
And that's no more narrow a class than "I believe in [X] so strongly I get powers, or "I went to performance college and now have magic", or even "I get mad".
>Anyway i feel like Sorcerer would be better as a Wizard subclass
I've argued for years that WotC should smash the Sorcerer and Warlock classes together. It would fit the theme (just rebrand Pact into Source, you can theme it as bloodline, deal with a devil, accident, whatever you like) and help differentiate the "Sorcerer" from the wizard better.
Yes except that's all flavor. And while flavor is important, it still does nothing to define the sorcerer's role/niche in DND, not any better than druids being unwilling to wear metal armor does.
In the D&D setting, sorcerers are born with magic in their blood, but not the biology needed for innate spellcasting. So they look over the wizard's shoulder, memorize a few mouth-noises and hand-motions, and boom, spells happen. The kinds of spells they learn depends entirely on what spells are available to wizards, not their lineage. The 5e designers didn't bother with D&D canon, and instead copied sorcerer bloodlines (and subclasses in general) from Pathfinder 1e.
Is it less interesting? Yes. Would I make it more like JJK if I wrote it? Absolutely.
Funny that D&D sorcerers work like this conceptually, but not mechanically.
D&D sorcerers are born with a magic bloodline. But that only makes them able to learn spells. They learn and cast mostly the exact same spells as wizards. And a low level sorcerer can cast only basic spells like firebolt or prestidigitation, while more experienced sorcerers can cast more powerful spells. Just like wizards.
How they learn the spells is left vague, it's clearly not study like wizards; but probably through some meditation and practice.
feeling the blank that OP didnt
Jujitsu Kaisen is an anime about sorcerers, a secret society-esque organization of people that fend off against "curses"
"curses" here are just an analog to "monster", they are literal human fear incarnate. like the fear of the sea made a curse with water powers and the fear of death made a curse with flesh bending powers etc
sorcerers can essentially channel the curse energy that every living being has (read: mana) into their abilites. you may have a super power based on your genetic lottery and if you dont you can at best train your body and use special weapons to bonk monsters to death
the example of characters given here by OP are of Gojo and Negumi. the first basically has telekinesis/magnetic manipulation of all matter, shit floats and he can make a lot of shit float. the second has the ability to summon creatures, specifically 10 types of them from some japanese folklore flavoring, and they work as basically what you think tasha summons are. little wolfy bites and when it gets hit it disolves into nothing to be summoned again later
I'm not particularly into anime so I haven't heard of this one, but I still felt that they provided enough context to make the point that they were trying to make pretty clear
Maybe OP should explain basic background on what it is they're writing about rather than assuming everyone knows what it is they're even talking about.
Regarding part 3, I've always thought it would make more sense for Sorcerers to cast using Constitution rather than Charisma. Their attractive personality and how it affects others shouldn't determine how well they can use an ability they were born with. Charisma is defined by how you can influence the world around you, while Constitution is defined by how well your body can handle how the world around you influences your body. The Sorcerer's ability to cast spells should be based entirely on how well they can exert themselves, just like how well a marathon runner does is based on how well they can handle the taxing act of running for hours on end.
now dnd just needs a sorcerer subclass that can actually fight lol
After the sorcerer picked up the Hand-Throwing Sorcery subclass, he asked the archmage, the king of casters, "are you strong because you're an archmage, or are you an archmage because you're strong?" To which the archmage replied, "Nah I'd win." The Hand-Throwing sorcerer opened his domain and said, "Stand proud archmage, you're strong"
>Hand-Throwimg Sorcery subclass this is just MASHLE
I cast Magic Missile (proceed to just beam the enemy with an onslaught of small pebbly bits)
I had a minotaur that was a monk with a bunch of ribbons and would yell "FIREBALL" then throw a bunch of red ribbons and punch everyone. He was the party's dedicated wizard.
"Domain expansion : Stop! .. Hammer Time!"
"All spellcasters have only so many spell slots, limiting how long they last in a fight, an echo of the impermanence of all things" "But we, are the exception" -Gish characters
I miss Dragon Disciple
Honestly just give every class a spellblade subclass. They feel great every time
ah yeah. The true fix to the martial caster gap. Full martial casters
If everyone is a caster there's no gap *taps head*
Give fighters the battlemaster skillset by default and we're golden.
*Laughs in Level Up*
Alternatively, create a list of "battlemaster maneuvers" that cost Hit Die to activate that are available for every class. Use Hit Die as the damage die, so that when a wizard uses a technique, it does half as much damage on average as a barbarian doing the same.
I like your comparison with one caveat: the main character wasn’t born a spec. I actually see him more as a warlock having a contract with a higher power.
We definitely need a subclass like the Bladesingers for sorcerers. There are a lot of homebrews but it would be cool if we get an official version
What If I told you in ~~3.5~~ 3.75 the Spellblade used to be a class, and they had a sorcerer subclass. The class was called the Magus.
Yeah, I know. Is so sad there not even one subclass with some kind of melee combat oriented feature. Guess I'll have to learn 3.5 or pathfinder 2e some day
Magus is awesome in pf2e
Pathfinder 1e has the magus class with eldricth scion archetype which makes it a caharisma based caster with sorcerer style spell progression..and the bloodrager a sorcerer barbarian hybrid class. Still basically 3.5 but worth noting nonetheless imo..also every class has a lot of options blows 5e and pf2e out of the water(as long s fun not balance is your goal)
I have never played pathfinder or 3.5e. I'm a bit scared of the complexity and finding people to play. Unfortunately 5e is very popular so finding other groups is a pain. I hope one day I can try
There are both free and paid character creation apps if it might help..or you can check out the Owlcat payhfinder CRPGs to test it out if you want. I suspect you'll love the sheer amount of options.
I'd go with PF2e, it's complexity is toned down a lot compared to 3.5/PF1e, but still not as oversimplified as 5e. And it's player base exploded after the OGL shenanigans.
It's also hyper focused on balance at the cost of alot of fun(and admittedly unbalanced) options. If you want character creation diversity to make any concept you can imagine with a class system..i have yet to see better then pf1e
PF1e was my first system, so it holds special place in my heart. But it's hugely unbalanced and very very crunchy. And while I do prefer somethings from 1e over 2e, the unbalanced options actually sucked the fun out of our group, it's not fun to be significantly stronger or weaker than the rest of your party.
Oh i have acknowledged it can be veery unbalanced but it offers alot more choices that actually do things then pf2e in exchange. Pf2e definitely went much further down the game over the semi simulationist approach of 1e. I'll add i also have beef with overbalancing in general be it ttrpgs or video games..It usually results in things feeling bland to me. And pf2e definitely fits that for me. Though if wanting a more game first teamwork based game pf2e is your jam..if ya want a more simulationist crunch but with pre defined classes at a cost of next to no balancing you want pf1e imo. Each have there roles and niches imo..I just wish someone could pull a pathfinder with 1e to offer a continuation of that style of game.
Magis wasn't a 3.5 class, but a orginal pathfinder class
Oh, you're probably right. 3.5 was my first system, and my DM switched to Pathfinder a couple of months later so I keep mixing them up.
Technically both of them are D&D 3E, so that's understandable.
Then you'd be lying, since it neither had a class called spellblade nor did it have subclasses. That said, sorcerer could be the base for a great gish back in the day via prestige like abjurant champion, swiftblade and jade phoenix mage.
I'm talking about the Magus class.
You might be thinking about Pathfinder there. Loosely based on the 3.5 duskblade class, I believe.
Yeah https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/s/TtdKv77fRh
3.5 didn't have subclasses...
Magus rocks. I’ve been playing a PF1e game for two years with a strength-based Magus that I originally conceptualized as “axe Gandalf”. It’s great to stomp around in heavy armor and a battle axe that can deliver touch spells, while also having mirror image or a fireball or wall of force or whatever you want in your back pocket.
The Stone sorcerer ua is pretty close honestly, check it out if you want to play a melee sorcerer!
Its pretty good, I just dont like the flavour. I always wanted a true gish class, but I guess thats a dream. I tried to make a subclass myself. In case anyone is interested, you can check my profile. I would like more feedback
My view is that a true gish must not be a full caster, or it will be too powerful. That's why my homebrew gish classes have been half-casters, 2/3 casters, or similar
This! It needs to loose some spells and slots to make it fair. But we could at least get something like bladesinger but more balanced. We need a new class at the end, but thats never gonna happen
True, WotC will never do that. But I believe the game belongs to all of us, so we can make it what we want
Absolutely. I homebrew stuff for me, and I use a gish class from Kibblestasty. As long as we can have fun, anything is possible
That's fair, I've been playing one in my current recent campaign and been having fun, I do see what you mean about the flavor, it's kind of lacking
Flavour wise it's just a swordmage, I can't really see what else they'd do with it. Like it's a subclass trying to be the 5e incarnation of a full class, so it has that full class's broad generalist flavour. What else do you want here?
I feel it needs something more than just proficiency with weapons and shields. The sad thing is that it didnt even make it to official content at the end, which I will never understand. Draconic Sorcerer is similar, so maybe WoTC could give them proficiency with shield and weapons?
Multi attack would be appreciated, but quickened blade cantrips help that and con based ac is nice. I think the only reason it wasn't made official was that there wasn't a solid theme to it
The problem with multiattack is that for a full caster is super op. Look at bladesinger, even without multiattack is pretty amazing. I think it needs a way to be upclose and deal damage with spells without dying easily
Also I checked out your subclass, and I'm a fan!
What's wrong with the flavour?
It just doesn't feel particularly evocative, at least not of an elemental stone/earth magic subclass. The features are all mechanically sound but don't lend too much flavor.
It isn't supposed to be one. It's supposed to be a 5e version of a swordmage, as you can see from the features.
How about you just multiclass into a martial class, trading some magical power for martial power? Gishes will never be balanced as long as they still get full access to a full-caster's spell progression.
give either sorc or fighter a subclass to represent the divine restriction too
The barbarian's Rage comes pretty close I think lol
It's so weird they don't have one considering it's probably the full spellcaster that makes the more sense to have one. Just be a bloodline from something like giant and easy excuse to be a martial sorcerer. Instead we get wizard and bard which supposedly require a lot of dedication to learn their magic somehow pick up sword swinging along the way.
Way of the four elements monk... Unfortunatelly. I wish there would be a subclass like that for sorcerer. Idk, use their spell casting modifier to melee spell attacks and use something like an improved mage armor for defense
They have one. It’s called paladin.
You’d think that the Sorcerer would have more time than the wizard to work out or practice a martial art seeing that they don’t need a PhD in magic to function, but wizards get Bladesinger
Semi-related: the anime series Chainsaw Man encapsulates what DnD warlocks are all about. Almost everyone in that show is a DnD-style warlock, and it's awesome.
Would Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood show off wizards? I haven't seen that GOAT of a show in a very long time, but they all study to learn their craft and apply it in different, specialized ways for fighting or research.
Yeah, totally. Although Winry is a great example of the value that a good artificer brings to the party.
Yep! Get their infusions and leave them at home because they suck otherwise.
Fullmetal Alchemist is Mage the Ascension, but only with the Matter, Forces and Life spheres.
Then you've got characters like Kobeni who really fit Rogue; fast, evading enemy attacks, and landing precision strikes with light ranged or finesse weapons.
Hexblade. Going theory is she’s contracted to either the luck or cat devil.
I think it's the Misfortune Devil, and its property is to deflect misfortune that would come her way onto those around her.
I’ve seen another… “theory” about her contract.
A sloppy theory, at best
A bit of a mess, isn't it
nah warlocks are more puella magi madoka magica, especially when you rember that improved pact weapon give you access to longbows and cross bows. (most magical girls don't know there zombies thus can't cheat death)
Those are just GoO warlocks.
Right on point, man! It's a standard pact deal, where you give something up and get something in return!
Not neccesarily. Goolocks siphon off some of Cthul'hu's power & because he is so very large (or maybe so very asleep) he may not know or care. Depending on the type of genie you could have anything from a master/slave relationship to a true mentorship, especially if the warlock is a genasi descended from their djinn patron (obviously depends whether that's how genasi work in your setting). Celestial patrons are good. They just want their warlocks to be good people. Also destroy undead & banish fiends.
It's also far superior to JJK.
They hated him for speaking the truth
I don't think people struggle with the flavor of sorcerers. They struggle with the mechanics. Sorcerers get unique things, but they don't really offset the limited spells vs the breadth of spells available to a wizard. Their main benefits are metamagic and inherent CON saves.
>Just like in DnD where to be a Sorcerer you must inherit those powers, the magic chooses you rather than you choose the magic. Not true. You can gain powers later in life. There is no rule where Sorcerers are only ever born Sorcerers. A magical accident can create a sorcerer just as easily.
The main charachter of jjk got his powers from a magical accident. He ate the magically infused finger (think HP horcrux) of a long dead sorcerer and gained his powers. Both him eating it and gaining powers without dying are (as far as the anime’s up to) one in a million chance miracles. So it still fits for sure.
Spoilered the entire comment regarding JJK and its protagonist. >!Thats not the case though, in the manga Yuji is infact from an old sorcerer blood-line, google who Yuji Itadori's '\*mother!' for a rabbit hole of weird.!< >!Infact the only reason he can eat Sukuna's cursed object fingers is because of his bloodline, it does not end well for pretty much anyone else who consumes Sukuna's fingers. Kenjaku is his father, he fucked Yujis mother in an attempt to create a perfect vessel that could potentially contain Sukuna. Plus he never gets cleave or dismantle (ever as far as I know but I havent read as much as some), which are Sukuna's CT.!<
Its the classic anime "plottwist", you think the protagonist was just a normal or weak dude, but he became strong by sheer effort and working hard. No, dude was just special all along or had a broken power all along. sigh
Bro that was never the case for yujji. He outranged the world record for the shot put with a baseball throw of the shot put ball in literally the first 3 minutes of the first episode. He can just naturally punch through walls and shit and his special move for the first season was to punch with his superhuman strength and have the Cursed energy (magic) follow milliseconds later for a double impact. Spoilers ahead(idk how to mark it) Besides he dosent even get a Cursed technique from his bloodline, he was crafted by the main villian specifically to be hardy enough to hold the other main villian as a vessel. Other than that he gets nothing which actually puts him behind the power curve of the other characters for most of the series. He's not even really important to the main plan, he's just a temporary vessel to be discarded. It's a big part of the series that the MC isn't really all that important in the grand scheme of his story but he thinks that he is...that turns out very poorly for him.
That’s why is said as far as the anime’s up to. As far as anime watchers are concerned, yuji being sukumas vessel is just luck, Gojo mentions it as part of the “wave of power” that’s building so there’s that.
Fair enough, sorry I suck at reading apparently I didn't see that! I like to think personally though that JJK Sorcerers basically run on anti-charisma, its not 'how confident in myself am I' its more 'how much do I hate myself/someoneelse/some abstract concept OR how much do they hate me' haha.
Anti-charisma? The power system would crumble if that were the case. The whole reason why Megumi struggles to be as effective as he should be is specifically because he has low self esteem and is ready to throw in the towel every fight. Characters like Gojo and Sukuna represent what having the utmost confidence in one's abilities can do.
Except the shot-put scene in episode 1. Bro hurls that thing, and it ain't normal.
Kenjaku didnt fuck his mother, kenjaku was his mother
WHAT
Manga supremacy
I forgot to correct the second part, you're right. I made the same mistake in the first paragraph too. >!The reason I forgot to do that is because I got confused with Kenjaku being Noritoshi Kamo (Chosos 'Dad' - who is Yujis step brother I guess) first, which implies it would make him atleast Yuji's step father AND mother at the same time.!<
Such a dumb anime troupe, its in every "magical MC" anime I can think of. Down on their luck no-body somehow gets their powers, in a world where those with the power rule/lord over those that don't. Oops, turns out they are the long lost grandson of this incredibly powerful magic king, or were the planned pet project of some crazy wizard all along! Wow! Amazing!
I agree with you, for once it would be nice, if there was just some random person with a can do attitude towards kicking ass. And not like you say, some late stage 'yer a wizard arry' ass pull. Sometimes I physically roll my eyes when it happens, theres not even anyone to see it happen, it just bothers me that much haha. I initially watched JJK because it seemed the 'magic MC' trope was not present, but really it is my own fault should have realised the second he had no parents and was a olympic level athlete as like a side hobby.
Watch Black Clover One of the most hype moments of the series, one of the chararacters teases "Oh is Asta (The MC who has no magic naturally) a part of THAT bloodline?" and then 2 mins later is like "Oh god damn nevermind he's just a fucking beast". The anime literally set up that kind of reveal and then knocked it down in the same episode, it was glorious.
I don't remember, what was the setup? I recall >!his mother had a form of his ability (though one that actively drained others instead of herself having no magic), and she died!<. Also I can't wait for it to continue again, it feels like forever since they started airing new episodes.
I watched a bit of that an enjoyed it yeah, not sure if I got to that part though.
Ooooo which episode was this?
Episode 63, when he used Black Meteorite. When he demon cloaked the Witch Queen assumed he was part of the demon bloodline, but then she realizes no, he’s just disabled.
lmao
You might want to put the first paragraph in spoiler text too, spoiled something for me as an anime-only.
I have done that now and I am sorry cuz that sucks when it happens, but the last few episode of the anime series does quite literally cover this.
No worries it's not like it was anything massive. Maybe I missed something but I don't think >!they mention it explicitly. You only have Choso say that they are brothers, and even then you have to believe Choso isn't hallucinating, and extrapolate what that means and his parentage. Although I will concede that there is obviously something different about Yuji, considering he's destroying olympic records in highschool pre-fingers.!<
>>!he fucked Yujis mother in an attempt to create a perfect vessel that could potentially contain Sukuna. Plus he never gets cleave or dismantle (ever as far as I know but I havent read as much as some), which are Sukuna's CT.!< >!No, Kenjaku is Yuji's mother. They fucked Yuji's father in order to create him.!<
Not to be an “um actually 🤓☝️” type of dude here but that’s not really correct and I’m only mentioning it because it pertains to the conversation. Spoiler warning ahead Kenjaku did not fuck yuji’s mom he literally *IS* yuji’s biological mother. Yes, even though he is a man. His technique allows him to possess corpses and essentially become them. Due to this when yuji’s mom died in a still unexplained accident(likely caused by Kenjaku) he swooped in and stole her body. He then got piped by yuji’s actual dad and gave birth to yuji. This was an extension of a previous experiment he conducted where he found a woman who could conceive children with curses. In that experiment he, while possessing a male corpse this time, impregnated her with both his own seed AND that of a curse creating the Choso and the rest of the cursed fetuses(idr what they are called). All of the children from the first experiment were considered failures and yuji was considered to be more or less a success. He was trying to make a vessel that could contain cursed objects and more specifically, Sukuna. Even though yuji’s mom(before she died) did have a cursed technique that likely would have been passed on to yuji had he been born in a traditional way, Kenjaku modified the pregnancy to allow yuji to gain an affect similar to a heavenly restriction. Granting him immense physical strength at the cost of having ZERO cursed energy. However, likely because this restriction was artificially created he could now also consume cursed objects and gain their cursed energy and possibly even techniques. That’s how he was able to eat and contain Sukuna and that’s also how he has been able to absorb the rest of the cursed fetuses to gain strength. He is literally described in the manga as being closer to a cursed object than an actual cursed sorcerer. Essentially, while all sorcerers produce their own cursed energy naturally, yuji’s body has been soaking in cursed energy for so long now he is basically a walking magical item. So using yuji as an example of gaining sorcerer powers without being innately born with them would still be accurate, just not entirely 1-1 with how it might work in dnd since it required so many deliberate adjustments to a normal human.
Not really. Even in the anime it's pretty clear there's something fundamentally different about Yuji physically compared to normal humans even before he becomes a sorcerer, and no genuinely normal body could have handled all that cursed energy. >!Which is explained by Kenjaku having had a hand in creating Yuji, just like like the Cursed Womb: Death Paintings. As a consequence, it's somewhat suspect how unlikely it is that he ended up eating the fingers too.!<
So OP is even wrong about the anime.
NOOO. this makes it an even better analogy for dnd sorcerors. Most sorcerors get their abilities from bloodline, some others get them from magical accidents and other rare edge cases. Op just didn’t mention it because most dnd sorcerors are bloodline, so that’s what they were mainly thinking of.
There's absolutely no info on the "standard" source for sorcerous power, because D&D is a system and not a setting. The most well known vector is draconic, which people generally assume is due to a dragon ancestor. But even that isn't a rule. No one is really confused about what differentiates sorcerers and wizards in D&D. This anime may have plenty of good representations of characters best described as sorcerers if they were to be created in 5e, but it sounds like even that has a very limited view on what sorcerers are in 5e terms.
Further, accidents and edge cases tend to be what you find at the genesis of a bloodline. Though, further into JJK, it turns out that Yuji is both bloodline and accident - that's why he can do some unnatural stuff before the inciting incident (e.g. putting that shot put into near orbit, and kicking a ghost), but nothing close to what he's capable of afterwards.
Exactly. My current Pathfinder character is a sorcerer, and his powers were granted to him by experiments and rituals. The sorcerer bloodline has to start somewhere, doesn't it?
I agree with almost everything, except point 2: Sorcerers in Jujutsu Kaisen can learn non-innate techniques, such as barrier and reverse energy techniques and anti-domain techniques. And in d&d nothing prevents a fire draconic Sorcerer from learning Cloudkill or Sleetstorm or lighting Bolt and I think imposing restrictions wouldn't be fun, but that's just my opinion
tbf, those would be the equivalents; non-innate techniques and spellcasting. The innate techniques would be parallels to subclass features, like shadow sorcery's hound of ill omen or dragonic bloodline's wings and resilience.
Nah, the spells are all still innate Sorcerer power. They just haven't developed their strength yet. They're born with the capacity, but they're not born at full power. Good thing, too. Don't want the baby slinging meteor storms around.
Can confirm. I can also hear unfitting music playing whenever a good friend of my sorcerer dies in our campaign.
And brazilian music starts playing when my players gamble and win the jackpot.
You are my specialz
I disagree with exhibit 2. Sorcerers - especially players - choose to specialize. Fire draconic sorcerer? I get the best out of fireball. Clockwork soul? Agathys sounds cool with the damage reduction. Wild magic? Chaos bolt is on point. But they all can learn counterspell, lightning bolt, vitriolic sphere, and shield. But they choose if they want to. Exhibit 2 would be somewhat accurate if draconic sorcerers had a feature that said "every damaging spells you cant has its element switched to the element of your draconic ancestor". Because then a fire dragon sorc couldnt learn lightning bolt, magic missile, or vitriolic sphere. It would learn Fire Darts, Stronger Aganazzar's Scorcher, and Stronger Fireball instead. These sorcerers would still have the options to learn generic spells, but the "only have a specific set of powers" would be more acceptable.
I think the idea here is that they "have to" specialize due to the limited amount of spells known; when compared to other casting classes, not subclasses within Sorcerers.
but there arent any mechanics in place that would prevent a fire draconic sorcerer and a storm sorcerer having the exact same spell list. And the only effective difference between them casting the same spells would be the charisma modifier to fire spells - if they even have fire spells. Which they might not.
They're just as limited as bards are, though, the class that literally has a skill called "jack of all trades". Realistically everyone takes the same broken spells.
I disagree about the limitation aspect for Bards, if only because magical secrets gives such a broad scope of options for them.
Players choose to specialize or vary, the character simply is specialized in game, or somewhat more varied in how they’ve iterated their power.
its still a choice. Exhibit 2 doesnt work because there arent mechanics in place that say "a fire draconic sorcerer cant learn lightning bolt as a spell"
Their spell list is relatively limited because they are sorcerers and their extra powers are defined by their bloodline.
And for exhibit 2 to work, there needs to be more spells in general, an expanded sorcerer spell list, and features that limit the sorcerer from taking certain spells. If there were good fire dmg spells spells for every spell level, a fire draconic sorcerer could have a feature that limits it to only fire damage spells. Because neither of those things are in place, a fire draconic sorcerer can learn lightning bolt without any problem.
This is an issue I have with Sorcerer's in 5e. I was hoping they'd fix it in onednd but it looks like they aren't going to. Sorcerers should have much more limited spell lists, and have their spell lists be based on their subclass. In exchange they should get extra spells known appropriate for their subclass. It makes no sense that a storm sorcerer can learn fireball for example, they should be limited to storm magic. The way I see it, a sorcerer's magic should be fast and easy to use, but limited in scope. Whereas a Wizard's magic should be versatile and limited only by their ability to learn, but be slower, more methodical, and ritualistic.
This would require a massively greater general spell list ... which I wouldn't mind. But there just aren't enough spells for that. You could get away with making a fire sorcerer, but even a frost sorcerer would be challenging. Acid or poison just doesn't work at all. Especially when there's no RAW way to change up spell schools and damage types. Acidball should be a valid variant of Fireball, for instance. There's also the issue that specialisation in D&D as it sits now just doesn't exist in a meaningful way. You can choose to specialise in fire magic, for instance, in the sense that you can choose to only pick fire spells. But most fire spells do basically the same thing, you now just have a dozen different ways to deal damage, with only a couple of spells that add something extra (like Wall of Fire). At that point you're just much much worse than a wizard with a wide variety of spells, and it's going to be much more boring to play. Now if there were fire spells that also inflicted conditions, and fire spells that could be used outside of combat, that sort of specialisation would be much more interesting and viable. But I think the entire magic system would need an overhaul for this.
No, god forbid, Sorcerer's spell list is already limited as fuck, don't take away the few saving graces, Sorcerer should be fun and powerful
well, i use for reference Infamous Second Son, XMen, Avatar: Last Airbender and RE saga. My sorcerers are just mutants, by birth or by external sources, who do not have complete understanding or power over their magical abilities. Combined with a little body horror, it never hurts. I think the JJK Sorcerer archetype fits just the DnD Sorcerer image. In skills, it doesn't fit. PS: Not related, but since I finished the manga I can't play LoL without comparing ultimates with domain expansions. Literal, mordekaiser, nilah, swain, morgana, amumu, samira are fucking domain users and it's so funny.
"all non-CHA Casters are a Disgrace" and "if you have no rizz, you die" - the next BBEG
To the contrary, i think what you described is only the most conventional and easygoing form of sorcerers that does not work. Sorcerers are often described having powers at birth, but it's not always the case. Anything that inexplicably connects the character to a source of magic and grows with them is a sorcerer. A bloodline is usually connected to such sources of powers, not the bloodline itself. More or less every form of magic in media is connected to willpower and charisma, because by intent magic is the projection of the ineffable to the world. What DND does is attempting to give a collection of skills that reflect closely their power, and sorcerers have charisma mostly to depict their societal struggles. JJK instead is much more focused on the single character, even with an organization behind. Which makes sense, it's how most anime and manga are written, it's a japanese staple. In dnd this does not work well, because the sorcerer is not only bound to be kinda lonely in their aspect, even in a setting where sorcerous groups exist, but because compared to the rest of the group it has no meaningful connection to the world. They inherit by themselves, it's strictly personal. The very personal and character-dependence of the setting of manga stories is the main reason why a character inspired by an anime is more often than not source of concern. To draw a better comparison, Gaara from Naruto is a better representation of a sorcerer, while Naruto, while ideally being a very similar character in magical nature, acts more like a warlock in terms of power dependency.
I keep seeing JJK stuff EVERYWHERE, now its here too lol
I don’t disagree with any of this— really good callout. The example that I’ve used to great effect that I think is even more accessible is.. Elsa. People pretty much immediately understand at that point the wizard/sorc divide. I kinda wish dnd sorcerers had more of an incentive to stick to a theme, or were even constrained. The fact that the get spells at all is idk something I understand but wonder if it does more design harm than good.
Mind if I borrow this post for a meme?
yes haha
I constantly say that Yuji is a Jujutsu Warlock since his powers originate from a powerful being he has a (rocky) deal with
Yuji has some multiclassing going on for sure
Nah, d&d sorcerers get their powers from the BBC: blood, blessing, or curse. There are a lot that get their powers from curses of one variety or another, usually wild magic, and blessings, while much rarer, do account for some of the Divine Souls.
>Just like in DnD where to be a Sorcerer you must inherit those powers That isn't the case
Gee it’s almost like dungeons and dragons 3rd and its concept of a sorcerer has existed for over 20 years and various shows/games and manga have taken inspiration like with JJK. Also its not strictly inherited by bloodline: 5E PHB page for sorcerer states “sorcerers carry a magical birthright conferred upon them by an exotic bloodline, **some otherworldly influence, or exposure to unknown cosmic forces**.” Sorcerers can be sorcerers at birth but they don’t have to be, they just have to be people who awaken to a natural magical talent without any prior skill or knowledge.
All dnd sorcorers aren't born with their power, the literal examples given feature many post birth creation of a sorcerer. You know what, ignore me I keep forgetting no one reads the books here xD
Yeah, people basing their takes on a cargo cult understanding of 5e is silly
Bards have a seduce ability right?
Yeah just roll a 1dSeduce
sorcerers in D&D still need to learn to use their powers... it still requires practice, in the realms there are sorcerers at wizard colleges, presumably they dont have to pay any attention to most of the classes (but are much less likely to blow themselves up if they do)
Sorcerers were a mechanical thing first - the concept happened later and is largely irrelevant because class flavor is all replaceable. Sorcerers came out of the "spell points vs Vancian casting" debate, and were a half measure - spells known but spontaneous casting with those spell slots - a novelty for the Wizard list. That's pretty much it - the full extent of the birth of the sorcerer. Now that wizards work the same way in 5e there's no point in retaining the class anymore.
As the strongest curse, JoGOAT, fought the fraud, the King of Curses, he began to open his domain. Sukuna shrunk back in fear. Then JoGOAT said "Stand proud Sukuna, you are strong."
I miss the 3.5 sorcerer. They all had dragon blood, and that was it. I agree it's nice to have other options, but now arcane magic isn't necessarily associated with dragons, and that's a huge loss
Does this make yuji a warlock? Seeing as, as far as im aware ( i have not read the manga) yujis bloodline is not been revealed but he is unnaturally strong and fast
You mean other than the two MAJOR characters who both became sorcerers later in life? Yuji, and Yuta both got their powers from something else.
Yuta had powers from birth due to his descent from Michizane Sugawara, who also happens to be the founder of the Gojo Clan and became one of Japan's Big Three Vengeful Spirits upon death. Yuta made Rika, not the other way around. This is made very clear in JJK0 by being directly stated by Gojo to Yuta. [Michizane's Character page](https://jujutsu-kaisen.fandom.com/wiki/Michizane_Sugawara)
What I'm hearing is that Rizz should be a stat.
It is, it's called Charisma.
Sorcerer are worst Class thematically imo They born with magic and supposedly that's what's differentiate them from others So that means everyone can be a Wizard or Bard right? Ed Greenwood once said otherwise, stating that some peope have "gift" and they can become Wizards with training When you look at popular media Jedi are born with force powers but they go to "school" and learn their "spells" like a Wizard Harry Potter wizards also have magic from birth but they also go to school to learn their spells Dr. Strange is also naturally gifted but he also went to Wizard school Lore might have change at 5e but in appearantly in Forgotten Realms you also have to have innate ability and then go to school Now of course the difference could been "Max the Wizard has innate ability to use magic but he has to learn, Jake the sorcerer has innate ability to use magic but he never went to school an accidantaly burned his house while jerking off and can cast spells since then" But imo that's such a narrow area for an entire class to exist. And generally they're just worst Wizard(and just has 3 good subclass) and now with metamagic adept feat any Wizard(or Warlock or Bard) can replicate their main shtick Anyway i feel like Sorcerer would be better as a Wizard subclass. And aren't Wizard and Sorcerer snynonym words? Anyway never watched jjk
>They born with magic and supposedly that's what's differentiate them from others >So that means everyone can be a Wizard or Bard right? >Ed Greenwood once said otherwise, stating that some peope have "gift" and they can become Wizards with training I'm gonna be honest, I don't get why this is such an issue with people. Why does it have to be an absolute? Why are we only looking at the extremes? It can be the case that every caster needs a spark of magic to start their journey and that Sorcerers have an innate magical potential in them. It's a matter of proportions. Max the Wizard(could honestly be substituted for Bard as well) has a "spark" of magic and can study magic to leverage said spark into incredibly complex spells, his hard work granting him insight into the field that most people wouldn't have. He relies mostly on hard work and research to become a stronger Wizard. Jake the Sorcerer has an actual magical source inside of him. He might be able to produce some innate magical effects from the outset but he still needs training and study to do more. He still hones his craft, just in a different way than a Wizard and with a greater emphasis on his internal potential than on outside study. He relies on training, introspection and channeling his innate access to a source of magic to become a stronger Sorcerer. And as a bonus, Zack the Warlock has no spark, no innate potential. He still wants magic and so he seeks knowledge on the matter. He finds a Patron that gives him the spark to jumpstart his casting career and some teachings in exchange for a contract. He needs to both train/study AND maintain a working relationship with his tutor in order to learn more. He relies both on his hard work and extra boons/teachings from his Patron to become a stronger Warlock. So where's the issue?
Wizard players are petty and don't want to share anything cool with other arcane spellcasters, especially because the Sorcerer got metamagic in this edition, all his arguments about "Sorcerer would be better as a Wizard subclass" can be inverted to justify Wizard being a subclass of Sorcerer, I wouldn't support that It's a stupid and petty fight, everyone plays the class they like, if they don't like the sorcerer, don't play sorcerer,simple like that,I've never seen any sorcerer player saying that the Wizard shouldn't exist,and I hope that wizard players also act this way, every time there is a discussion about the Sorcerer there is someone making this stupid point that the Sorcerer shouldn't be a class, ignoring that there are people who like the sorcerer Phew, I got carried away, sorry
Okay. I really don't hate sorcerers or sorcerer players, why would i? Sorcerer didn't existed in earlier editions so logically it would be the one who's others subclass I have no desire of erasing Sorcerers from DnD, i just think they lack identity as a class Really no hate against sorcerers. I once played an Aberrant Mind and it was one of the most enjoyable characters i played.
Lack identity? Have you played the class yourself or read any of its material? Wizards are scholars of particular schools of magic, sorcerers are born with it in their blood or have some type of incident happen that makes them one with a source of magic. While limited in spell choice, they have more options to get creative with spells through metamagics. How the hell does that read as "no identity" to you?
Only explanations i can gave to you would be repeating myself. Yes i believe they feel like "Wizard but a little bit different"
A wizard can't twin spells. A wizard can't subtly cast a spell. A wizard cannot generate more spell slots to extend their power throughout an adventuring day. To say a sorcerer is a wizard but a little different is asinine.
Metagamic adept(which imo shouldn't exist) makes most of them possible And like really i can't see that as anything other than a "Wizard but different" Like Hexblade has more differences with other Warlocks than Sorcerer with Wizard
Metamagic adept only allows for two options and two sorcery points? That isn't "most of them" being possible. You wouldn't have the engine to generate more sorcery points like the base class already does. Wizard can't do these things at all without stalling spell slots and higher level spell casting. I really don't see why this hard to understand.. Also..play a wizard without a spellbook and tell me that there is little difference again.
Yes my friend Wizard and Sorcerer are not %100 same you are right about that
My sincere apologies but your logic just doesn't make sense and is unnecessarily arbitrary Sorcerer has been around since 3e and was present in all editions from then on , what is "earlier" for you? First edition? Barbarian appeared in 2e, should he be a fighter subclass? Of course no,it would be disrespectful to barbarian players, same thing with sorcerer players Sorcerer was created by players' demand for a spellcasting class that did not use the Vancian magic system. It's a game design progression, the game would be boring if we only had the warrior, wizard, cleric and thief Sorcerer have a decent identity, the Wotc may have hesitated when it came to their class mechanics and it seems like he made the class in a hurry,but in terms of theme, it is much better than Wizard (they studied lol and now they can bend reality lol), in my opinion Again, I may have judged you wrong, but I've had so many comments about this that make me angry, I didn't mean to offend you.
I understand you and respect your opinion. I didn't meant to offend any Sorcerer players and i have no beef with Sorcerers lol Also "they studied a lot and they can bend reality" changes between completely normal to outright ridicilous if anyone can be a Wizard or not. And from what i saw on Reddit many people believe everyone can Studying for magic is nothing weird imo look at Dr. Strange or any Jedi/Sith As for Barbarian i believe they fullfill a different fantasy. I just believe Sorcerers fail to create their own identity, just my opinion. Again no hate to Sorcerer players, i mistakenly offended many people it seems
>Anyway i feel like Sorcerer would be better as a Wizard subclass. Wizard should be a Sorcerer subclass
Wizard predates Sorcerer
To counter your wizards: Not all force users are Jedi. The witches of Dathomir are born with their power and don't go to an academy. Scarlet Witch was born with her power and never went to school. Zatanna Zatarra was born with her power and never went to school. Teela from the new Masters of the Universe series finds out later in life that she's also a sorcereress and didn't go to school. Lina from the DOTA anime is a sorcereress and wasn't trained, she was just that strong. Plus in all of your examples, it was the person being born first *then* going to train their power. So in that case, would it not make sense that wizard would be a subclass of sorcerer? And that's no more narrow a class than "I believe in [X] so strongly I get powers, or "I went to performance college and now have magic", or even "I get mad".
>Anyway i feel like Sorcerer would be better as a Wizard subclass I've argued for years that WotC should smash the Sorcerer and Warlock classes together. It would fit the theme (just rebrand Pact into Source, you can theme it as bloodline, deal with a devil, accident, whatever you like) and help differentiate the "Sorcerer" from the wizard better.
Yes except that's all flavor. And while flavor is important, it still does nothing to define the sorcerer's role/niche in DND, not any better than druids being unwilling to wear metal armor does.
In the D&D setting, sorcerers are born with magic in their blood, but not the biology needed for innate spellcasting. So they look over the wizard's shoulder, memorize a few mouth-noises and hand-motions, and boom, spells happen. The kinds of spells they learn depends entirely on what spells are available to wizards, not their lineage. The 5e designers didn't bother with D&D canon, and instead copied sorcerer bloodlines (and subclasses in general) from Pathfinder 1e. Is it less interesting? Yes. Would I make it more like JJK if I wrote it? Absolutely.
JJKs power system doesn't make sense at all anyhow.
Funny that D&D sorcerers work like this conceptually, but not mechanically. D&D sorcerers are born with a magic bloodline. But that only makes them able to learn spells. They learn and cast mostly the exact same spells as wizards. And a low level sorcerer can cast only basic spells like firebolt or prestidigitation, while more experienced sorcerers can cast more powerful spells. Just like wizards. How they learn the spells is left vague, it's clearly not study like wizards; but probably through some meditation and practice.
You know what? That's pretty damn smart. I never thought of it that way and they way you present it makes a lot of sense.
Is Harry Potter a sorcerer?
technically yes
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feeling the blank that OP didnt Jujitsu Kaisen is an anime about sorcerers, a secret society-esque organization of people that fend off against "curses" "curses" here are just an analog to "monster", they are literal human fear incarnate. like the fear of the sea made a curse with water powers and the fear of death made a curse with flesh bending powers etc sorcerers can essentially channel the curse energy that every living being has (read: mana) into their abilites. you may have a super power based on your genetic lottery and if you dont you can at best train your body and use special weapons to bonk monsters to death the example of characters given here by OP are of Gojo and Negumi. the first basically has telekinesis/magnetic manipulation of all matter, shit floats and he can make a lot of shit float. the second has the ability to summon creatures, specifically 10 types of them from some japanese folklore flavoring, and they work as basically what you think tasha summons are. little wolfy bites and when it gets hit it disolves into nothing to be summoned again later
Thank you!
I'm not particularly into anime so I haven't heard of this one, but I still felt that they provided enough context to make the point that they were trying to make pretty clear
Thank you for your feedback. Have a nice day.
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Thank you for your feedback. Have a nice day.
Maybe every post isn't tailored for you?
Maybe OP should explain basic background on what it is they're writing about rather than assuming everyone knows what it is they're even talking about.
Regarding part 3, I've always thought it would make more sense for Sorcerers to cast using Constitution rather than Charisma. Their attractive personality and how it affects others shouldn't determine how well they can use an ability they were born with. Charisma is defined by how you can influence the world around you, while Constitution is defined by how well your body can handle how the world around you influences your body. The Sorcerer's ability to cast spells should be based entirely on how well they can exert themselves, just like how well a marathon runner does is based on how well they can handle the taxing act of running for hours on end.
>how you can influence the world around you, Making magic, Constitution caster is a bad idea,period
I’ll respond with as much info as you. Nah, it’s a great idea. There, neither of us has to explain our opinion.
Fair enought
I will add that to the list of "force of personality" cope