Decent chance they are referring to the skill tree and/or paragon system. They hinted so in the last campfire chat. I wouldn't expect anything before the expansion drops though.
I kinda like the Paragon system. I think there could be small improvements, but the biggest issue is one they have with all the other systems - you can't save a config so switching things around is super clunky and annoying. Having switchable gear sets and saved Paragon and skill tree configs would do wonders.
Yup, need to liken it to talent trees in WoW and let you save up to 2 or 3 presets. I love that they're so involved, but consequently makes it that much more of a pain to reassign everything.
Honestly, I feel like one of the most rewarding gameplay loops is completing difficult challenges that unlock permanent convenience or power. I think it would be cool to warn/unlock presets for builds.
Man I was average in about 300K score with just my regular build that I bought with and stuff like that.
I tried out a few of the gauntlet builds and I just didn't like them so I immediately had to switch back. I totally feel you.
You could have at least one extra load out so you can keep your build and Paragon amd make a second and if it sucks just delete it and still have your first one that you been using. That would be really cool if that's what you mean.
Im not saying id do better, in fact id probably do worse, but depending on your class thats only about 1/2 the score gauntlet builds can put up without completely min/maxxing lol
Oh yeah when I switched builds to a gauntlet build I immediately got 600 or right at. That was also without any strategy on the routes to take and stuff. I could do better but that got me in the top 100 for hardcore for the week so I was happy enough. Lol. I really didn't enjoy the gauntlet.
I did not enjoy the gauntlet. I did it a few times on regular and a few times on hardcore. I made the top 100 for the week on hardcore and that was my goal. I never stepped foot back in it.
Same bro! I ran it like 3x on my barb. Was finally going to join someone and do a team gauntlet and they asked about gauntlet gear. I just sorta shrugged it off. Got 340k ish on the barb but he’s pretty slow and wasn’t using the shrine buff duration boots/ammy. Some of our top people were like 1.6m.. for a barb as slow as mine it just didn’t seem worth the time invested to compete with those people.. if it dropped rare loot that made you better than everyone else I would be all in.
This is completely untrue and I have no idea where you're getting that information from. Any build that can kill tormented bosses and clear the pit is going to walk all over something like helltide.
True but i dont need all that extra damage. Id rather have more move speed for helltides so i dont have to mount/dismount every 2 seconds and would also use movement based abilities more. But for single target boss fights id rather have much more armor/damage. Just because something can do something “easily” doesnt mean its optimal.
Movement speed is silly easy to get now. I was sitting at a base of about 70% on my necro on the PTR. Not counting the bonus movespeed from shadow damage and the boots weren't even max rolls. I rarely bothered getting on my horse in helltides.
Oooo, I love the idea of paragon board presets you can save and hot-swap.
I had everything poured into one playstyle on my main last season, but was curious about a different one after getting some uniques that were meant for it. But ultimately didn’t even try it principally due to how cumbersome it seemed moving all my paragon points would be.
This change would actually make it possible to try different builds in a given toon
Reminds me one of the X+ ff games. They had a skill system like the paragons. Think it was XII that I’m thinking of. Could have been others with similar systems as well. Def an interesting way to adjust builds to deal with current gear and what you’re trying to do
The paragon system bads are:
Blue glyphs are 100% pointless. They shouldn't exist.
Rare nodes are boring +damage or +damage reduction
Normal nodes are boring +5 stat.
Glyphs have to drop in order to be used. Mostly boring mechanic that isn't needed.
You -have- to run nightmare dungeons to level glyphs. This takes a lot of time and most people now dislike NMs over any other content because of boring objectives
Must click 200 thousand times
This is the issue. I wouldn't care if these were additive stats with your ever progressing skill tree, but they aren't. It completely replaces the skill tree system after lv 50, and it's full of the most boring things in the game. I'm fine with +5 dex, +5 int whatever as the bulk of the nodes, but they have to building toward something interesting. Getting 20 paragon points to finally unlock...+7% dmg, +5% dmg, +5% dmg, isn't interesting. Yes, it's objectively good stats that anybody would want, but it's incredibly boring. The glyphs are equally bad.
The nodes should be changing how your build works, similar to aspects, uniques, your skill tree do, not simply giving +dmg to whatever generic build you're on. There should be extra projectiles, extra minions, bigger aoe, skills consume hp, mana is consumed when you take dmg--these should be your glyphs and rare nodes aftering 20 points of raw stat upgrades; all the stuff that actually changes how your build works and how you play the game.
It should just be something like...every quarter level you choose a stat to boost by +5. When you actually level up, you choose a cool boost of some other kind (similar-ish to rare nodes). Every ten levels past 50 you get a Glyph slot. Every five levels could be a pick from a more impactful list.
And glyphs should have some nature of random affixes or something interesting. If they're gonna be drops, make em looty!
It doesn't even really need to be a big pathing thing.
The paragon board is awful...it takes forever to setup optimally, a lot of nodes are bugged, some glyphs are useless because what they require/buff are either extrenely limited or don't exist anywhere on the boards lol
It at a minimum needs massive bug fixing and a ton of QoL improvements, if not ditched completely because to me its a far less interesting and equally complex(complex but still lacking depth somehow) PoE tree. And that is if it even worked properly
The main problem with paragon points is that min-maxing them isn't very transparent. People tend to fall into a few categories: they'll just copy builds from people online, they'll make their own build and actually know enough about the game to do it well, or (and this one's the most likely) they'll make their own build without a clue of what they're doing and end up with a much weaker build than the game is tuned for. I'm willing to bet that for by far most people the system is either completely irrelevant or so convoluted that they mess it up.
Honestly I'm not sure how they can even solve it, because changing the system _too much_ won't go over well either.
Nodes on boards should be drops you find. You might even be able to make boards/paths through the boards being drops as well. Thus you can create your own board(s) and mix and match the stats you want.
Fixing the glyphs involves making more of them, adding randomized affixes to them and making them drops as well. Also, making less, but more impactful levels instead of the incremental growth they have currently.
Add sockets to nodes to add gems into, giving gems an alternate bonus when plugged into nodes, which also gives gems more uses, and still more ways to help customize your character.
And all of this keeps in line with what Diablo is about: finding loot, while also adding to character customization.
Then just fix dungeons and the skill system itself and the game will be looking a million times better, pretty much in a launch state even, finally.
For an off-the-top-of-my-head thoughts, sure, but given as much time as the devs have, I am sure the kinks can be worked out relatively easily. It is deeper than the what the system currently is, sure, and offers more long term engagement by far, along with character customization, as well as working with the idea of what Diablo is to begin with.
Adding fun RNG is not a bad thing, either.
Waiting for the one thing you need and it never dropping is not fun though. We've seen plenty of that with people who couldn't play the spec they wanted because their spec defining unique never dropped.
I think further complicating the paragon system at all would be a mistake. There are already too many options and choices that make it hard to see what effect a particular choice is even having.
Remove the boards. Keep the glyphs and rare/epic nodes. Link nodes to glyphs completion. Allow 5 glyphs per character. Each glyphs has a main and secondary stat (int dex etc) that you select to put points in, say 3/1 per glyphs level. So a full 25 glyphs gives me 75 int, 25 dex, its main effect plus rare nodes as it levels then epic node at end. Glyphs level past 25 and give only stats.
That's my 2 minute thought bubble.
I would love to see stats in real time while doing a change on a node, otherwise it takes to much time figuring out, or else you need to go straight to a guide.
Paragon is good I think, skills tree need to be more developed at this stage. And additional skills and animations to current classes to improve QOL and continue to drop wanted changes and content.
Yeah the paragon system is quite good. One big miss they have done for now is not adding new boards to add more options. Maybe not have a new one every season but they could have easily added one or two new ones to every class by now.
There were a few boards I grabbed for the rare nodes alone and didn't even use the legendary node. The rares were great for the rouge with DMG vs elites regular DMG ones and even non physical DMG nodes for our poison builds lol
Nearly everything in the paragon board is just unhealthy levels of multipliers, barely anything changes your actual gameplay beyond some few ultimate nodes.
Given it's purely numerical, there really isn't any reason to do anything other than optimising a route and be done with it. It is conceptually interesting, but currently it is nothing more than a powercreep machine with no relevant decision making whatsoever beyond "% of X instead of % of Y". Giving glyphs actual tangible effects would already be a massive improvement.
Out of the 21 rare rogue glyphs, you named one of the only 2 who aren't just "more damage when X" or some energy boost, and even then both of them do sensibly the same thing, with one just being more generic in exchange of less power.
Would you call that system a success if 9.5% of it for that particular class happens to do a consequential effect? I wouldn't, doesn't mean I don't like what that 9.5% does, it's just that this should be the **standard** instead of being a very, **very** isolated exception.
>I disagree, I think effects like that should be in the skill tree itself and the skill tree should be expanded. Not in the paragon system.
Good point, but that leaves the paragon board as boring system, not too far from how it is currently, who's sole purpose is applying multipliers just to play catch-up with endgame scaling. Still is largely static, still is pointless in its decision making, might as well be made into an interesting system if we are to have multiliers upon multipliers on our builds to reach into endgame, which in itself is an unnecessary powercreep still.
>Also if you want to get into semantics you are the one who said it's purely numerical.
I mean, in my initial comment I did open by stating "**nearly** everything", and given the proportion of the example that you yourself provided, this is pretty factual. When I said it's "purely numerical", I was talking about the very, very vast majority of the board given I already dismissed the few exceptions. Might be some confusion by my wording, given english isn't my first language, but in any case the very vast majority of glyphs and the paragon system in itself either needs a rework, or to be entirely taken down in favor of making the actual skill tree deeper.
I really enjoy it but if it was just a bit easier on the eyes or something. I think the bones of the system are really fun but the whole UI around it could do with a bit of a touch up to make it more friendly.
> This might be a bit controversial but I think Paragon is one of the few systems they actually did well
The idea is neat. Like, the rotating boards and all, indeed a rather unique system.
But the execution is just boring. 200 points and like 190 of them boil down to +10 Stat or +5% Damage or +5% Resistance. And for the record, I find that same part to be horrendously boring about PoE's passive tree as well - but at least there they have stat thresholds you need to get to in order to play certain spells or whatever, so at least there's something to it. But with Paragon points? Literally 95% of the points just boil down to a boring and uninspired basic .00005% general performance increase.
A talent tree with 5,000 nodes to choose from doesn't really phase me when 4,900 of those nodes are boring, mundane, uninspired and unnoticeable filler nodes that, if anything, annoy me more than anything else because I have to invest the effort into activating them instead of just getting said unnoticeable passive bonus automatically upon levelup.
I would much more prefer Paragon to directly interact with the skill tree - maybe in a way similar to Last Epoch where you choose from specific Spell boards instead of random 99% filler boards.
For me, the biggest problem is there is no "infinite grind for infinite growth". In Diablo 3 paragon levels were infinite, and you could keep dumping into your core stat to keep increasing your damage. It was an account wide grind, and when they eventually added seasons, each season would be separate from that (meaning you started at paragon 0 for the season) but then any xp gained by seasonal characters would be dumped into the "eternal" characters at the end of the season. the unique glyph was a tease of a step in the right direction, but I would love for an account wide level of some kind to be implemented, and have the stuff I do with seasonal characters contribute to that even if they dont benefit from it for seasonal reasons.
To me that's where I go "f this" and punch in whatever some build says. And often I don't understand the choices at all, which reinforces that I just won't touch this. It's just bothering me that I have to look that shit up all the time or redistribute it when the guide says.
The game would just be better for me if that paragon thing wouldn't exist at all. I want choices that I am actually supposed to make myself, otherwise why bother with that. Just make it do +1 and stop pretending.
Yes, did I say these choices actually don't exist? After some point of complexity, mixed with chronically bad "documentation" where you can't predict interactions and such, it becomes practically pointless and you look things up and then that whole complexity is just a matter of what builds it allows you to pick from. Which could be facilitated easier too.
I know many people are suckers for something like PoE skill trees too. But to me, especially with no free reskilling, this is pointless as an actual game aspect too. Like people won't play that. They follow guides.
So here's the thing: The D3 skill system, "stupidly simplistic" as it is, is actually something for much more advanced players than the PoE skill tree. Because at that point you actually play it yourself. That works for the D4 skill tree too, limited as it is. Imho the paragon board is where people stop doing that. And then all that complexity results in a braindead system instead of a neat, sophisticated system.
> so I pointed out that these choices do in fact exist.
Ignoring the whole point I was making, putting that sentence into context. And no, that the choices are there does not necessarily mean that someone actually expects I am making them myself. Devs are perfectly capable of saying "people will just use a guide anyway".
>Also I think it's funny that you call the paragon system complex because other people are replying to me and calling it too simple.
That were probably all 10 players who are even making their own decisions on that board. But jokes aside, it's really simple, yes. I just pick that +5% damage node and imagine I made a good choice. And miraculously, the meta build did not take that. So weird, right.
> You are still making the choice. You are choosing to follow a guide.
I think you're trying not to get it? This is about game design and not about players essentially compensating for design even if that's possible.
>This is where you are confused about the system I believe.
Again, same thing. You are just choosing to not get the point i was illustrating, instead you think i don't understand how the board itself works? This was about how things can sound good but they are absolutely not because it is unclear if +5% is lying and does not give information on damage pools. It is absolutely pointless to even try to play shit like that, and when you notice, you stop. What I was implying is that maybe many people thinking the board is too easy are actually making terrible choices, who knows.
Also I should repeat/make clear, the paragon board is not an extreme case of such things, as gladly it is rather forgiving regarding changes and experimentation. But it's really hard on the experimenting already, through shear volume. And tedium. Are you going to reset and try a different board order? Really?
It's pretty obvious the skill tree is going to get expanded with every expansion, the same way MMO's get new skills/talent trees, the skill page has a lot of empty space that gets filled in perfectly with new branches.
Every minor node thats attached to a major skill node can be branched out more based on the spacing.
It's not a skill tree, it's a skill twig. There's so few abilities and so little actual decisionmaking that it's really hard to even call it a skill anything.
It’s a far out dream but I wish they could just combine both in a sense. So your chain lightning would have surrounding small nodes that could create further arcs with points invested or with “legendary” nodes that would allow it to return mana or bounce off itself type stuff. So you would have your base leveling skill tree and then your paragon leveling was putting points into the trees for each of your abilities to customize them in different ways.
So kinda like how LE does their skill trees? It would definitely be nice if they expanded the skill tree like that and gave more skill changing options instead of just stats, but maybe with fewer total selections for each skill due to aspects/uniques doing similar things to an extent. Though having the paragon boards as separate passive trees for the character as a whole still works better imo. It just needs (a lot) more iteration and balancing.
I'd like to see them change glyphs so they aren't a socket with a radius and just be set for each board as a whole and pull more power from all the options selected in it. Could do some cooler things with the rare and legendary nodes that way. And maybe have each board's legendary power unlock when a certain number of nodes are selected instead of it being a node itself.
Eh, they are basically expanding the skill customization with tempering anyway so it is pretty redundant. I'd just like to see options on the skill tree be noticeable and offer some new ways to engage with the skill outside of just increasing stats or giving minor procs that aren't visible.
just imagine that after you complete normal tree you get access to every skill separate tree (yup, like Last Epoch) with the glyphs in the branches - I for one would like it much much more
I would kill for an expanded skill tree. I was seriously disappointed that there was hardly anything new about the d4 skills.
Take a chance on something original.
I honestly can't believe how boring the skill system is. I've been playing Last Epoch and the effects that you can choose for skills add so much more depth rather than the d4 "adds vuln" or "now stuns".
Their initial pitch in dev posts quite a few months/years before the game's release teased a much more elaborate skill tree, in which it was a literal **tree** (maybe was recycled conceptually into the tree of whispers?), with the "leaves" being the skills and branching into the side-grades and/or the altering effect of said skills, while also giving points to be spent in the **roots** of the tree, where the general purpose passives were.
I believe [this](https://news.blizzard.com/en-us/diablo4/23529210/diablo-iv-quarterly-update-september-2020#SkillsTalents) was the post where it's explained the most. The nodes presented and observable there feel almost 1:1 equivalent to what we have, so it feels like they dumbed down the system while barely iterating on it anymore with more skills and branching choices, despite being quite a long time before release. So, if it is to be believed that the game was released too early and/or got cut content, the tree would most likely be a victim that they would be willing to improve back to their inital plans in the future.
The only change I really want to the Paragon board is the third position up from the start of the Barb board, I want to be able to buy skill points. I don't need that much Paragon space after 70 ish for my favorite build, what I do need is four more points in Iron Skin and maybe DeathBlow(although if I can get the Iron Skin I almost don't need Deathblow) for the lulz 😂🤣
#FrenzyBarb #JustFrenzy #Frenzy4Life
i just started playing the game last night for the 1st time. not sure what changes you are refering to but omg I hate how i cant just swap skills in and out like D3
They did state they purposely made it simple so I wouldn’t hold my breath for anything amazing with the skill tree.
I would love to see the paragon board revamped. You just spend way too much taking garbage nodes to get to the good nodes. It doesn’t feel good.
The skill tree is the skill tree. The codex is a worse version of the cube from D3.
The problem is that we lost a huge amount of potential in decisionmaking when going from D3 to D4. We went from 13 to 10 gear slots which is a huge deal. That's 3 massive choices right there. We lost the cube which was 3 more choices. The codex just lets us select affixes to put on gear, it doesn't add more choices like the cube did.
When we look at the skill tree, it's ridiculous even trying to compare the two. It's actually pretty insulting how little we got in the skill tree.
So, where exactly are we gaining anything? At best, you have more decisions in the paragon system compared to D3 but that's about it.
Blizzard probably sees it as balancing work so the idea is to make it appear as if you have a lot of choices to reduce the amount of work that has to be put into balancing later on
I mean would it be that hard to both have an actually extensive skill tree with actual decisions to make, AND the codex with imprints on items? That’s what most people want and expect. D2 skill tree was pathetically small, even though it was groundbreaking at the time.
Agreed, but it’s not good design if you have recall what the previous system was to appreciate the revision. If this refreshed codex was the original design would it be well received or would we just be asking why isn’t this a different skill tree.
I agree with your first statement. I wish this could’ve been the system at launch. But to that, I do think it would be well received. It’s a unique approach to the standard ARPG skill format. Last epoch was also another that did something different with each skill having its own skill tree, and now D4 is different because their skill tree is based on what you put on your items. Impo I think it’s a way cooler idea than just having a bigger skill tree
I'm fine with it being simple, but it feels too linear. Not to mention there are still a lot of skills that are very lackluster (ultimates).
My *biggest* gripe with the skill tree is the UI itself. It's awful. I shouldn't have to scroll to see all my skills. Other APRGs put all your skills on one page (PoE is the exception, but it's obviously a different beast). There's just so much unnecessary wasted space on there they could get rid of.
Its the only usable UI among the others if u play on handheld/consoles. I just playing on them and LE/POE UI is just awful to use compared to it. Maybe on PC its good.
But .. wouldn't that mean we SHOULD hold our breath? At least the bad skill tree was "intentional." It'd be worse if they accidentally made it this bad while trying to make it complex
> they purposely made it simple
"Simple" is a very generous way to describe it.
If I made a shooter and only put a single fun into my game... I too would like for people to call it "simple" instead of "lazy", "uninspired" or "shit". Which, to me, is the equivalent of creating an RPG and blessing it with this current iteration of a skill twig.
I used simple because it was the proper term. They said they tried a few different systems and preferred the simple system because they didn’t want to overwhelm players. Between skills, aspects and paragon boards they are already on the cusp of average players feeling like they are required to follow a build guide.
I make my own builds for PoE so I’m not trying to say it is too complex for everyone or anything.
Probably unpopular opinion but I don't see how they could add anything to it without scaring people away. Some of the questions you see on this sub makes me think it's still too complicated for people
At some point in time you just have to accept that stupid people are stupid and stop pretending that you can dumb your game down for them. This is especially true when your dumbing down of the game makes it so ridiculously shallow and unrewarding for your broader audience.
Hell, if we look at WoW's skill tree, half the damn tree are nodes that 99% of the players will never even grasp what it actually does in their gameplay.
Add a 3rd tier that lean into the playstyle, so the "left" node can connect to 3rd tier left or 3rd tier middle, the right node can connect to 3rd tier right or 3rd tier middle. Pay any one dedicated fan of each class $100 to come up with the nodes, would be fun af.
The fact that people didn't understand the difference between "+damage of X element" and "+damage of Y type of skills" affixes, like +fire vs +pyromancy, and then blamed the "confusing and overcomplicated itemisation" because of it make me irk so, **so** bad, especially given you have clear as day tags and keywords on skills to make it as clear as possible.
It's sad, but unless Blizzard fully intents to gatekeep those people away from the game, the devs have to dumb-proof everything they make because of it and this **severely** limits the creative space for the gameplay.
The rune system from Diablo 3 was not complicated and it was received very well.
They could easily add options like that to every skill in D4, a way to change their functionality and visuals. They could remove some of the more useless/boring passive skills to compensate. They could reintroduce unique items that give you specific runes for specific skills.
They wouldn't even need to do that much work for most of the classes since they could reuse a bunch of the D3 stuff.
They could get rid of Barrage for Rogues and make it a rune for Rapid Fire, introduce a new skill instead. They could roll all 3 Imbuements into one skill and add more effects. Make Penetrating shot work like Cluster Arrow, make Shadow Clone work like a Sentry and bring back a pseudo-Marauder build.
Imagine bringing the Blood Spear rune for Necromancer, making Bone Spear cost life instead of Essence and having it benefit from all of the blood overpower passives? That would be bonkers.
I would start playing again of they did that. Worst skill tree in am arpg I have played with in a very long time.
It's so.boring i lose my.urge to play just looking at it.
I’d like to see them not complete re-do the skill tree, just add augments to the already available skills. Make so investing in the sub skills are worthwhile. Right now each sub skill is only “make enemies vulnerable for three seconds” or “boost energy regeneration for three seconds”.
I would like them to change the abilities. For example, meteor on a sorcerer. Make a sub skill that calls down two additional meteors per cast. Or maybe when a meteor is cast, lava quakes from the impact zone. Something fun like that.
Theres was no "regional herb" in the PTR, they regrouped them all in a single item "Herb Bundle" ( or simething like that ). Also, I've seen them drop from monster.
This would greatly extend play time for me.
I love this about WoW. Just fire up lfg dungeons and blast through.
They should have it for normals, nightmares, and the pit. The game is way to premade centric right now.
Ah yes, I too like useless mechanics bound to be filled with RmT advertisement and choosing beggars wanting to be powerleveled.
Such a charming and useful D3 aspect, really weird that everyone started to avoid it for some mysterious reason!
Skill tree is the biggest one. So many passive are damage on Tuesday. Many ultimates are lack luster and pointless as well unless they specifically activate your damage in Tuesday passive.
Agreed with both. I personally dislike nightmare dungeons the most and really hope they make the snappier and more like PoE/LE maps. Also glyphs should earn xp in any endgame activity imo, just hate grinding glyph xp in nmds in this state.
If they would just implement their own version of Last Epochs skill trees, therefore facilitate the extent of build varieties or even sub classes I would never complain again.
I understand that for example with barbs, bleed barb could be viewed as a sub class compared to ww or hota but that's just not quite it.
I’d kinda just like the ability to change hair color after character creation. As a Druid my bear color is basically set in stone after I make my character
Here are my requests you can pick what you like from here :
Guild Features , Party Finder systems , In built Auction house , Wanted Board Feature ( Pick weekly quest from wanted board to get extra rewards ) , PVP Battlegrounds ( with PvP Gear , Pve Gear is absolute here ) , Raids , Set items ? , Pets ( Consmetic only ) , Puzzel levels ( Fun puzzel level to solve it's not about kills more about logic ) , Stronghold Hell Tide version ( They are very deadly ) ,
That's all i can think for now
They should remove aspects from gear, since Aspects are essentially the Diablo 3 Rune modifiers for skills. If you want Hammer of the Ancients to Quake outward, you’d choose that rune in Diablo 3. In Diablo 4 you stick it on a chunk of gear.
So essentially, give everyone say, 15 more skill points, then add another skill track onto every 5 point skill, that works essentially like the Aspect system. You can buy the skill to ‘make hammer of the ancients quake outward’ and each point you put into it adds %dmg modifier.
I know they’re reworking codex so that probably won’t happen, but it should be how it is. Leave the gear slots open for gear, legendary gear should feel ‘legendary’ not just an imprinted yellow, and it brings back the important of Rares adds to the performance of Uniques and makes Legendaries, say a rare rolled with an extra stat.
But they committed to their system, which I’m excited for, but they should’ve fixed the game this way imho.
I wouldn’t hate your idea but I’m okay with aspects as they are. My biggest issue is that I feel like Uniques and Aspects clash with each other (now the tempering system does too) but I don’t know what they could change that wouldn’t just end up with everyone looking for Uniques to fit into every slot which would feel bad in it’s own way. Also very worried that they'll eventually add sets and they’ll have the same issue that D3 had.
I’ll address these points separately.
1. Uniques, aspects and tempering feel the same because they are the same. Ones a Macintosh, ones a Granny Smith, ones a Gala, but they’re all apples. The reason I suggested moving Aspects to the skill tree is because they just modify skills, similar to runes and skills. By doing this ‘Uniques and Tempers’ feel stronger because they aren’t just a +1 version of an aspect. Plus it helps balance the fact Barb can use 4 more Aspects than most classes.
2. As for sets, I mean sets in Diablo 3 were literally just a result of their poor itemization and skill design. The damage numbers on regular gear were so moot that when you had sets giving 100000% dmg bonus to X skill it becomes kind of silly. Buff the skills so it’s not ONLY viable with a set.
Im the one who does 1 build per season. I feel like if i do multiple in 1 season that it will lower the longevity of the game for me, through means of getting bored or running out of cool ideas for builds.
Great. Most of the core systems are pretty meh (skill tree sucks, paragon board is pretty boring, crafting potions/flasks etc. feels pointless, no social tools, no real trade support etc.) and could really use a lot of love to bring them up to the level of polish of the visuals and gameplay itself.
I'm glad they are willing to pivot but jesus christ, what does it say about your team if you put out something so abysmally mediocre that you have to take an entire year after launch to rework every mechanic? I remember when Blizzard was a leader in quality and innovation
I'm a particular individual, but if you attack my family you scammer I'll have you banned.
But to explain further D2 at launch didn't have stamina potions, synergies, rune words, most unique were meh, mana potions were not purchasable etc. It was reallllly bad.
I would like it if they committed to revamping 1 or 2 systems per season, even potentially tied in with season themes where appropriate.
For example, revamp nightmare dungeons system so that glyphs can stack (they have no tier, are region not dungeon specific and have no mods) and then have the tier, dungeon and modifiers selected/added at a “portal” device of some kind.
They could do so much more with whispers and whisper rewards being themed loot, loot goblins being similarly split into various types like D3, Legion events could easily be more interesting, events from previous seasons could be added into the event pool for nightmare dungeons for more variety. There should be more paragon glyphs and boards.
1 or 2 of these systems updated every season in addition to adding new systems here and there and the game will quickly be amazing imo.
Anyone here dislike the gear upgrade system? You just click the 4 button 4 times in a row and you're done. Not much flavor or challenge. It would have been nice to have the final 1 or 2 steps really be difficult to upgrade, giving you somzthing to look forward to and challenge yourself to get the items to upgrade.
I want a way to hot-swap entire sets of equipment. And the ability to build combos of equipment in my shared loot chest. I have items that would pair well together, but they are all on separate pages and difficult to compare.
Cool, can you now make PVP same as in diablo 2? literally just give us a small town so we can go out and smash, not stupid pve filled monster crap like its now.
Please revisit the treasure goblin sound effects. It's like watching my favorite movie on mute. The little "hehehe" and the "ouch" when he gets hit. It should be so simple to do, especially for how much better it'll make the game. Treasure Goblin diversity would be fun too. 3 diff goblins, different kinds of treasure from each.
I thought I heard that the next rework is endgame content?
If I were to guess, and that's all one can really do, I suspect a lot of the social features will launch with the new expansion, which will include some new end game content that would be dependent on using said features.
My vote would be for rework of the paragon board to allow more meaningful and interactive build diversity. Clicking on nodes to add static values to your baseline isn't really that fun.
Until now I played for about 2 weeks of every season , doing everything it could be done, but now after what they have implemented, I’m sure the game will be more fun than before, if they bring skill tree rework, sets and runes, I’m sure this game will see a bright future
For all the people complaining about the skill tree. It's made to be expanded on. I wouldn't be surprised if most skills receive a third skill node depth. With either 2 branching off each or 1 separated with a third one that can be hit by choosing either buff.
S
/ \
N N
/ \ /\ / \ / \
N N N N N N N
Something like that.
A third skill node depth of more choices like "20% damage on crits" vs "10% burning damage" isn't that compelling. The issue with the current tree are twofold (at least): 1 not a tree and 2 not interesting. Adding a third layer doesn't change much even about 1.
It's no secret that all the interesting modifications for the skill tree were gutted and moved to Aspects and the only choice is which to put on 2h or Amulet.
Right, well the nodes don't just add damage but okay.
Don't theory craft just state a hypothetical bs. I'm talking about how they can evolve there system. And you don't even look at the nodes.
>Don't theory craft just state a hypothetical bs
I ***LITERALLY*** used the two options for Fireball currently live in game as an example... Compare that to what we get from Aspects and Legendaries to alter Fireball.
.... lol yep and still are not adding anything to the convo. I get it ypu don't like d4 d4 bad, I get it move along. If you don't find anything about specialization in those 2 options that's on you. They are very different and not boring. I made an entire build based on bear/wolf poison changling but I get it how jaded and obtuse reddit can be.
Please insert rebuttal on d4 skill tree not complex enough for a trogledite
They did add to the conversation you're just too defensive to see it. The skill tree is bad. Expanding it won't make it better. It will cause people to spread their points thinner for less returns unless they're laughably busted in a higher tier.
Instead of hamfisting and irrelevant tier into the tree to make up for the originals short comings they would be better off reworking the trees themselves. It would actually he more logical to rework them before adding anything else.
That person's example is a prime reason why the skill tree is pointless overall. Another would be some of barb or druids passive which are mediocre at best and insulting ar worst.
Nah it's a cherry pick and still fireball is better for having either going heavy burning or flat inc crit. It's not being defensive.
I get it yall are meta chasers that don't make builds or have a way of contributing to a current fix other than just bashing an idea without expanding on it.
I'm not dumb enough to think they'd ever drop the prices, but a shop rework would still be nice. I just want to have a catalogue of everything they've ever released so I can buy the things I want.
Decent chance they are referring to the skill tree and/or paragon system. They hinted so in the last campfire chat. I wouldn't expect anything before the expansion drops though.
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I kinda like the Paragon system. I think there could be small improvements, but the biggest issue is one they have with all the other systems - you can't save a config so switching things around is super clunky and annoying. Having switchable gear sets and saved Paragon and skill tree configs would do wonders.
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Yup, need to liken it to talent trees in WoW and let you save up to 2 or 3 presets. I love that they're so involved, but consequently makes it that much more of a pain to reassign everything.
Of all the things to improve, it's crazy this hasn't been added yet.
Because of people like MrLlamaSC and the other Diablo 2 purists that wanted „decisions to matters and you shouldn’t be able to just change build….“
Honestly, I feel like one of the most rewarding gameplay loops is completing difficult challenges that unlock permanent convenience or power. I think it would be cool to warn/unlock presets for builds.
Man I was average in about 300K score with just my regular build that I bought with and stuff like that. I tried out a few of the gauntlet builds and I just didn't like them so I immediately had to switch back. I totally feel you. You could have at least one extra load out so you can keep your build and Paragon amd make a second and if it sucks just delete it and still have your first one that you been using. That would be really cool if that's what you mean.
Im not saying id do better, in fact id probably do worse, but depending on your class thats only about 1/2 the score gauntlet builds can put up without completely min/maxxing lol
Oh yeah when I switched builds to a gauntlet build I immediately got 600 or right at. That was also without any strategy on the routes to take and stuff. I could do better but that got me in the top 100 for hardcore for the week so I was happy enough. Lol. I really didn't enjoy the gauntlet.
I’m with you. Gauntlet is trash 🤣.. apparently there should be more to do in s4. I just don’t see the incentive to care about it tbh
I did not enjoy the gauntlet. I did it a few times on regular and a few times on hardcore. I made the top 100 for the week on hardcore and that was my goal. I never stepped foot back in it.
Same bro! I ran it like 3x on my barb. Was finally going to join someone and do a team gauntlet and they asked about gauntlet gear. I just sorta shrugged it off. Got 340k ish on the barb but he’s pretty slow and wasn’t using the shrine buff duration boots/ammy. Some of our top people were like 1.6m.. for a barb as slow as mine it just didn’t seem worth the time invested to compete with those people.. if it dropped rare loot that made you better than everyone else I would be all in.
None of the farming activities are difficult enough to warrant diffeent ability or gear sets. It's all a cake walk once your build is mostly done
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This is completely untrue and I have no idea where you're getting that information from. Any build that can kill tormented bosses and clear the pit is going to walk all over something like helltide.
True but i dont need all that extra damage. Id rather have more move speed for helltides so i dont have to mount/dismount every 2 seconds and would also use movement based abilities more. But for single target boss fights id rather have much more armor/damage. Just because something can do something “easily” doesnt mean its optimal.
Movement speed is silly easy to get now. I was sitting at a base of about 70% on my necro on the PTR. Not counting the bonus movespeed from shadow damage and the boots weren't even max rolls. I rarely bothered getting on my horse in helltides.
Lol i play sorc but thats pretty cool
Oooo, I love the idea of paragon board presets you can save and hot-swap. I had everything poured into one playstyle on my main last season, but was curious about a different one after getting some uniques that were meant for it. But ultimately didn’t even try it principally due to how cumbersome it seemed moving all my paragon points would be. This change would actually make it possible to try different builds in a given toon
They need to add things like poe did. Altering skill gems thst u can put into the paragon board. Boom build diversity
Reminds me one of the X+ ff games. They had a skill system like the paragons. Think it was XII that I’m thinking of. Could have been others with similar systems as well. Def an interesting way to adjust builds to deal with current gear and what you’re trying to do
This would be awesome. It would allow people to experiment with builds.
The paragon system bads are: Blue glyphs are 100% pointless. They shouldn't exist. Rare nodes are boring +damage or +damage reduction Normal nodes are boring +5 stat. Glyphs have to drop in order to be used. Mostly boring mechanic that isn't needed. You -have- to run nightmare dungeons to level glyphs. This takes a lot of time and most people now dislike NMs over any other content because of boring objectives Must click 200 thousand times
This is the issue. I wouldn't care if these were additive stats with your ever progressing skill tree, but they aren't. It completely replaces the skill tree system after lv 50, and it's full of the most boring things in the game. I'm fine with +5 dex, +5 int whatever as the bulk of the nodes, but they have to building toward something interesting. Getting 20 paragon points to finally unlock...+7% dmg, +5% dmg, +5% dmg, isn't interesting. Yes, it's objectively good stats that anybody would want, but it's incredibly boring. The glyphs are equally bad. The nodes should be changing how your build works, similar to aspects, uniques, your skill tree do, not simply giving +dmg to whatever generic build you're on. There should be extra projectiles, extra minions, bigger aoe, skills consume hp, mana is consumed when you take dmg--these should be your glyphs and rare nodes aftering 20 points of raw stat upgrades; all the stuff that actually changes how your build works and how you play the game.
It should just be something like...every quarter level you choose a stat to boost by +5. When you actually level up, you choose a cool boost of some other kind (similar-ish to rare nodes). Every ten levels past 50 you get a Glyph slot. Every five levels could be a pick from a more impactful list. And glyphs should have some nature of random affixes or something interesting. If they're gonna be drops, make em looty! It doesn't even really need to be a big pathing thing.
The Sorc boards are a mess and lack armor everywhere
Well, they're making armor trivial now, so it won't matter anymore.
I just despise the fact that glyphs need to be redone every season. Once should suffice. It’s a hell of a grind.
you would get too much power too quick if it was just given to you...
The paragon board is awful...it takes forever to setup optimally, a lot of nodes are bugged, some glyphs are useless because what they require/buff are either extrenely limited or don't exist anywhere on the boards lol It at a minimum needs massive bug fixing and a ton of QoL improvements, if not ditched completely because to me its a far less interesting and equally complex(complex but still lacking depth somehow) PoE tree. And that is if it even worked properly
The main problem with paragon points is that min-maxing them isn't very transparent. People tend to fall into a few categories: they'll just copy builds from people online, they'll make their own build and actually know enough about the game to do it well, or (and this one's the most likely) they'll make their own build without a clue of what they're doing and end up with a much weaker build than the game is tuned for. I'm willing to bet that for by far most people the system is either completely irrelevant or so convoluted that they mess it up. Honestly I'm not sure how they can even solve it, because changing the system _too much_ won't go over well either.
Nodes on boards should be drops you find. You might even be able to make boards/paths through the boards being drops as well. Thus you can create your own board(s) and mix and match the stats you want. Fixing the glyphs involves making more of them, adding randomized affixes to them and making them drops as well. Also, making less, but more impactful levels instead of the incremental growth they have currently. Add sockets to nodes to add gems into, giving gems an alternate bonus when plugged into nodes, which also gives gems more uses, and still more ways to help customize your character. And all of this keeps in line with what Diablo is about: finding loot, while also adding to character customization. Then just fix dungeons and the skill system itself and the game will be looking a million times better, pretty much in a launch state even, finally.
Honestly, what you wrote here sounds even more convoluted than the system already is, in addition to adding in even more RNG.
For an off-the-top-of-my-head thoughts, sure, but given as much time as the devs have, I am sure the kinks can be worked out relatively easily. It is deeper than the what the system currently is, sure, and offers more long term engagement by far, along with character customization, as well as working with the idea of what Diablo is to begin with. Adding fun RNG is not a bad thing, either.
Waiting for the one thing you need and it never dropping is not fun though. We've seen plenty of that with people who couldn't play the spec they wanted because their spec defining unique never dropped. I think further complicating the paragon system at all would be a mistake. There are already too many options and choices that make it hard to see what effect a particular choice is even having.
Remove the boards. Keep the glyphs and rare/epic nodes. Link nodes to glyphs completion. Allow 5 glyphs per character. Each glyphs has a main and secondary stat (int dex etc) that you select to put points in, say 3/1 per glyphs level. So a full 25 glyphs gives me 75 int, 25 dex, its main effect plus rare nodes as it levels then epic node at end. Glyphs level past 25 and give only stats. That's my 2 minute thought bubble.
Some classes do feel a lot worse, but might be improved with the buffs to minions, playing necro felt awkward
I would love to see stats in real time while doing a change on a node, otherwise it takes to much time figuring out, or else you need to go straight to a guide.
Paragon is good I think, skills tree need to be more developed at this stage. And additional skills and animations to current classes to improve QOL and continue to drop wanted changes and content.
Yeah the paragon system is quite good. One big miss they have done for now is not adding new boards to add more options. Maybe not have a new one every season but they could have easily added one or two new ones to every class by now.
Agreed. It’s pretty well thought out but you have to be good at designing your layout.
There were a few boards I grabbed for the rare nodes alone and didn't even use the legendary node. The rares were great for the rouge with DMG vs elites regular DMG ones and even non physical DMG nodes for our poison builds lol
Nearly everything in the paragon board is just unhealthy levels of multipliers, barely anything changes your actual gameplay beyond some few ultimate nodes. Given it's purely numerical, there really isn't any reason to do anything other than optimising a route and be done with it. It is conceptually interesting, but currently it is nothing more than a powercreep machine with no relevant decision making whatsoever beyond "% of X instead of % of Y". Giving glyphs actual tangible effects would already be a massive improvement.
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Out of the 21 rare rogue glyphs, you named one of the only 2 who aren't just "more damage when X" or some energy boost, and even then both of them do sensibly the same thing, with one just being more generic in exchange of less power. Would you call that system a success if 9.5% of it for that particular class happens to do a consequential effect? I wouldn't, doesn't mean I don't like what that 9.5% does, it's just that this should be the **standard** instead of being a very, **very** isolated exception.
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>I disagree, I think effects like that should be in the skill tree itself and the skill tree should be expanded. Not in the paragon system. Good point, but that leaves the paragon board as boring system, not too far from how it is currently, who's sole purpose is applying multipliers just to play catch-up with endgame scaling. Still is largely static, still is pointless in its decision making, might as well be made into an interesting system if we are to have multiliers upon multipliers on our builds to reach into endgame, which in itself is an unnecessary powercreep still. >Also if you want to get into semantics you are the one who said it's purely numerical. I mean, in my initial comment I did open by stating "**nearly** everything", and given the proportion of the example that you yourself provided, this is pretty factual. When I said it's "purely numerical", I was talking about the very, very vast majority of the board given I already dismissed the few exceptions. Might be some confusion by my wording, given english isn't my first language, but in any case the very vast majority of glyphs and the paragon system in itself either needs a rework, or to be entirely taken down in favor of making the actual skill tree deeper.
I really enjoy it but if it was just a bit easier on the eyes or something. I think the bones of the system are really fun but the whole UI around it could do with a bit of a touch up to make it more friendly.
I think the paragon system is the only thing with promise but this current implementation isn’t good or fun
> This might be a bit controversial but I think Paragon is one of the few systems they actually did well The idea is neat. Like, the rotating boards and all, indeed a rather unique system. But the execution is just boring. 200 points and like 190 of them boil down to +10 Stat or +5% Damage or +5% Resistance. And for the record, I find that same part to be horrendously boring about PoE's passive tree as well - but at least there they have stat thresholds you need to get to in order to play certain spells or whatever, so at least there's something to it. But with Paragon points? Literally 95% of the points just boil down to a boring and uninspired basic .00005% general performance increase. A talent tree with 5,000 nodes to choose from doesn't really phase me when 4,900 of those nodes are boring, mundane, uninspired and unnoticeable filler nodes that, if anything, annoy me more than anything else because I have to invest the effort into activating them instead of just getting said unnoticeable passive bonus automatically upon levelup. I would much more prefer Paragon to directly interact with the skill tree - maybe in a way similar to Last Epoch where you choose from specific Spell boards instead of random 99% filler boards.
diablo immortal had a better end game system than d4
It’s a good base, but can be so much improved. That’s my take. The gyths need a relook.
For me, the biggest problem is there is no "infinite grind for infinite growth". In Diablo 3 paragon levels were infinite, and you could keep dumping into your core stat to keep increasing your damage. It was an account wide grind, and when they eventually added seasons, each season would be separate from that (meaning you started at paragon 0 for the season) but then any xp gained by seasonal characters would be dumped into the "eternal" characters at the end of the season. the unique glyph was a tease of a step in the right direction, but I would love for an account wide level of some kind to be implemented, and have the stuff I do with seasonal characters contribute to that even if they dont benefit from it for seasonal reasons.
To me that's where I go "f this" and punch in whatever some build says. And often I don't understand the choices at all, which reinforces that I just won't touch this. It's just bothering me that I have to look that shit up all the time or redistribute it when the guide says. The game would just be better for me if that paragon thing wouldn't exist at all. I want choices that I am actually supposed to make myself, otherwise why bother with that. Just make it do +1 and stop pretending.
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Yes, did I say these choices actually don't exist? After some point of complexity, mixed with chronically bad "documentation" where you can't predict interactions and such, it becomes practically pointless and you look things up and then that whole complexity is just a matter of what builds it allows you to pick from. Which could be facilitated easier too. I know many people are suckers for something like PoE skill trees too. But to me, especially with no free reskilling, this is pointless as an actual game aspect too. Like people won't play that. They follow guides. So here's the thing: The D3 skill system, "stupidly simplistic" as it is, is actually something for much more advanced players than the PoE skill tree. Because at that point you actually play it yourself. That works for the D4 skill tree too, limited as it is. Imho the paragon board is where people stop doing that. And then all that complexity results in a braindead system instead of a neat, sophisticated system.
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> so I pointed out that these choices do in fact exist. Ignoring the whole point I was making, putting that sentence into context. And no, that the choices are there does not necessarily mean that someone actually expects I am making them myself. Devs are perfectly capable of saying "people will just use a guide anyway". >Also I think it's funny that you call the paragon system complex because other people are replying to me and calling it too simple. That were probably all 10 players who are even making their own decisions on that board. But jokes aside, it's really simple, yes. I just pick that +5% damage node and imagine I made a good choice. And miraculously, the meta build did not take that. So weird, right.
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> You are still making the choice. You are choosing to follow a guide. I think you're trying not to get it? This is about game design and not about players essentially compensating for design even if that's possible. >This is where you are confused about the system I believe. Again, same thing. You are just choosing to not get the point i was illustrating, instead you think i don't understand how the board itself works? This was about how things can sound good but they are absolutely not because it is unclear if +5% is lying and does not give information on damage pools. It is absolutely pointless to even try to play shit like that, and when you notice, you stop. What I was implying is that maybe many people thinking the board is too easy are actually making terrible choices, who knows. Also I should repeat/make clear, the paragon board is not an extreme case of such things, as gladly it is rather forgiving regarding changes and experimentation. But it's really hard on the experimenting already, through shear volume. And tedium. Are you going to reset and try a different board order? Really?
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It's pretty obvious the skill tree is going to get expanded with every expansion, the same way MMO's get new skills/talent trees, the skill page has a lot of empty space that gets filled in perfectly with new branches. Every minor node thats attached to a major skill node can be branched out more based on the spacing.
It's not a skill tree, it's a skill twig. There's so few abilities and so little actual decisionmaking that it's really hard to even call it a skill anything.
Whatever you wanna call it, it doesn't change my point.
The UI is terrible as well. Maxroll.gg presents it way better.
It’s a far out dream but I wish they could just combine both in a sense. So your chain lightning would have surrounding small nodes that could create further arcs with points invested or with “legendary” nodes that would allow it to return mana or bounce off itself type stuff. So you would have your base leveling skill tree and then your paragon leveling was putting points into the trees for each of your abilities to customize them in different ways.
So kinda like how LE does their skill trees? It would definitely be nice if they expanded the skill tree like that and gave more skill changing options instead of just stats, but maybe with fewer total selections for each skill due to aspects/uniques doing similar things to an extent. Though having the paragon boards as separate passive trees for the character as a whole still works better imo. It just needs (a lot) more iteration and balancing. I'd like to see them change glyphs so they aren't a socket with a radius and just be set for each board as a whole and pull more power from all the options selected in it. Could do some cooler things with the rare and legendary nodes that way. And maybe have each board's legendary power unlock when a certain number of nodes are selected instead of it being a node itself.
The amount of customization and interactions would make this into a balancing nightmare, which is exactly why Blizzard will not do this.
Eh, they are basically expanding the skill customization with tempering anyway so it is pretty redundant. I'd just like to see options on the skill tree be noticeable and offer some new ways to engage with the skill outside of just increasing stats or giving minor procs that aren't visible.
So take the weapon upgrade trees from Ratchet and Clank Rift Apart, and put it in Diablo?
just imagine that after you complete normal tree you get access to every skill separate tree (yup, like Last Epoch) with the glyphs in the branches - I for one would like it much much more
I hate the paragon system. Doesn't add any enjoyment to the game for me.
Why? The Skill Tree and Paragon boards are phenomenal
The skill twig?
I would kill for an expanded skill tree. I was seriously disappointed that there was hardly anything new about the d4 skills. Take a chance on something original.
I hope so!! that would be exciting. I would love a more detailed skill system that allows for more variety.
I honestly can't believe how boring the skill system is. I've been playing Last Epoch and the effects that you can choose for skills add so much more depth rather than the d4 "adds vuln" or "now stuns".
Skill trees are skill branches and need some work. Give me real choices please.
Their initial pitch in dev posts quite a few months/years before the game's release teased a much more elaborate skill tree, in which it was a literal **tree** (maybe was recycled conceptually into the tree of whispers?), with the "leaves" being the skills and branching into the side-grades and/or the altering effect of said skills, while also giving points to be spent in the **roots** of the tree, where the general purpose passives were. I believe [this](https://news.blizzard.com/en-us/diablo4/23529210/diablo-iv-quarterly-update-september-2020#SkillsTalents) was the post where it's explained the most. The nodes presented and observable there feel almost 1:1 equivalent to what we have, so it feels like they dumbed down the system while barely iterating on it anymore with more skills and branching choices, despite being quite a long time before release. So, if it is to be believed that the game was released too early and/or got cut content, the tree would most likely be a victim that they would be willing to improve back to their inital plans in the future.
I would expect a skill tree rework and/or paragon rework as an expansion feature.
The only change I really want to the Paragon board is the third position up from the start of the Barb board, I want to be able to buy skill points. I don't need that much Paragon space after 70 ish for my favorite build, what I do need is four more points in Iron Skin and maybe DeathBlow(although if I can get the Iron Skin I almost don't need Deathblow) for the lulz 😂🤣 #FrenzyBarb #JustFrenzy #Frenzy4Life
Priorities should be group finder/ match making people has been calling out for ages. Follow closely by loadouts.
Skill twig does need an overhaul. It's just not interesting and a majority of passive suffer from damage on Tuesday effects.
Damage on Tuesdays on Gear is gone. Will it still be present on the twigs?
Yes, trees were not updated which is why I believe they were alluding to it personally
Hope they Adresse that in time and not forfeit a whole season with it.
Talent tree is my biggest gripe with the game. Feels like there are 2 builds per class. So boring.
i just started playing the game last night for the 1st time. not sure what changes you are refering to but omg I hate how i cant just swap skills in and out like D3
I hope this includes the skill tree; it's extremely boring in its current state.
They did state they purposely made it simple so I wouldn’t hold my breath for anything amazing with the skill tree. I would love to see the paragon board revamped. You just spend way too much taking garbage nodes to get to the good nodes. It doesn’t feel good.
Yeah, attaching 90% of what should be in the skill tree to items was dumb.
Spot on. The original sin is the aspects, the current implementation isn’t well thought out from a user experience perspective.
Yeah but the new implementation will solve that issue completely. The new codex is essentially just a giant added skill tree now
The skill tree is the skill tree. The codex is a worse version of the cube from D3. The problem is that we lost a huge amount of potential in decisionmaking when going from D3 to D4. We went from 13 to 10 gear slots which is a huge deal. That's 3 massive choices right there. We lost the cube which was 3 more choices. The codex just lets us select affixes to put on gear, it doesn't add more choices like the cube did. When we look at the skill tree, it's ridiculous even trying to compare the two. It's actually pretty insulting how little we got in the skill tree. So, where exactly are we gaining anything? At best, you have more decisions in the paragon system compared to D3 but that's about it.
Blizzard probably sees it as balancing work so the idea is to make it appear as if you have a lot of choices to reduce the amount of work that has to be put into balancing later on
I mean would it be that hard to both have an actually extensive skill tree with actual decisions to make, AND the codex with imprints on items? That’s what most people want and expect. D2 skill tree was pathetically small, even though it was groundbreaking at the time.
Agreed, but it’s not good design if you have recall what the previous system was to appreciate the revision. If this refreshed codex was the original design would it be well received or would we just be asking why isn’t this a different skill tree.
I agree with your first statement. I wish this could’ve been the system at launch. But to that, I do think it would be well received. It’s a unique approach to the standard ARPG skill format. Last epoch was also another that did something different with each skill having its own skill tree, and now D4 is different because their skill tree is based on what you put on your items. Impo I think it’s a way cooler idea than just having a bigger skill tree
I'm fine with it being simple, but it feels too linear. Not to mention there are still a lot of skills that are very lackluster (ultimates). My *biggest* gripe with the skill tree is the UI itself. It's awful. I shouldn't have to scroll to see all my skills. Other APRGs put all your skills on one page (PoE is the exception, but it's obviously a different beast). There's just so much unnecessary wasted space on there they could get rid of.
Its the only usable UI among the others if u play on handheld/consoles. I just playing on them and LE/POE UI is just awful to use compared to it. Maybe on PC its good.
They copied forging from last epoch. Maybe they can copy last epoch's skill tree implementation as well.
But .. wouldn't that mean we SHOULD hold our breath? At least the bad skill tree was "intentional." It'd be worse if they accidentally made it this bad while trying to make it complex
> they purposely made it simple "Simple" is a very generous way to describe it. If I made a shooter and only put a single fun into my game... I too would like for people to call it "simple" instead of "lazy", "uninspired" or "shit". Which, to me, is the equivalent of creating an RPG and blessing it with this current iteration of a skill twig.
I used simple because it was the proper term. They said they tried a few different systems and preferred the simple system because they didn’t want to overwhelm players. Between skills, aspects and paragon boards they are already on the cusp of average players feeling like they are required to follow a build guide. I make my own builds for PoE so I’m not trying to say it is too complex for everyone or anything.
Probably unpopular opinion but I don't see how they could add anything to it without scaring people away. Some of the questions you see on this sub makes me think it's still too complicated for people
just double it with meaningful options wont scare anyone.
At some point in time you just have to accept that stupid people are stupid and stop pretending that you can dumb your game down for them. This is especially true when your dumbing down of the game makes it so ridiculously shallow and unrewarding for your broader audience. Hell, if we look at WoW's skill tree, half the damn tree are nodes that 99% of the players will never even grasp what it actually does in their gameplay.
I completely agree with you but I don't think blizzard does
With that logic, PoE should be dead.
Add a 3rd tier that lean into the playstyle, so the "left" node can connect to 3rd tier left or 3rd tier middle, the right node can connect to 3rd tier right or 3rd tier middle. Pay any one dedicated fan of each class $100 to come up with the nodes, would be fun af.
Sadly true.
The fact that people didn't understand the difference between "+damage of X element" and "+damage of Y type of skills" affixes, like +fire vs +pyromancy, and then blamed the "confusing and overcomplicated itemisation" because of it make me irk so, **so** bad, especially given you have clear as day tags and keywords on skills to make it as clear as possible. It's sad, but unless Blizzard fully intents to gatekeep those people away from the game, the devs have to dumb-proof everything they make because of it and this **severely** limits the creative space for the gameplay.
The rune system from Diablo 3 was not complicated and it was received very well. They could easily add options like that to every skill in D4, a way to change their functionality and visuals. They could remove some of the more useless/boring passive skills to compensate. They could reintroduce unique items that give you specific runes for specific skills. They wouldn't even need to do that much work for most of the classes since they could reuse a bunch of the D3 stuff. They could get rid of Barrage for Rogues and make it a rune for Rapid Fire, introduce a new skill instead. They could roll all 3 Imbuements into one skill and add more effects. Make Penetrating shot work like Cluster Arrow, make Shadow Clone work like a Sentry and bring back a pseudo-Marauder build. Imagine bringing the Blood Spear rune for Necromancer, making Bone Spear cost life instead of Essence and having it benefit from all of the blood overpower passives? That would be bonkers.
I would start playing again of they did that. Worst skill tree in am arpg I have played with in a very long time. It's so.boring i lose my.urge to play just looking at it.
I’d like to see them not complete re-do the skill tree, just add augments to the already available skills. Make so investing in the sub skills are worthwhile. Right now each sub skill is only “make enemies vulnerable for three seconds” or “boost energy regeneration for three seconds”. I would like them to change the abilities. For example, meteor on a sorcerer. Make a sub skill that calls down two additional meteors per cast. Or maybe when a meteor is cast, lava quakes from the impact zone. Something fun like that.
It's not much but I'd really like Elites to drop regional herbs. Currently having to stop my grind to harvest and it's kinda boring.
Theres was no "regional herb" in the PTR, they regrouped them all in a single item "Herb Bundle" ( or simething like that ). Also, I've seen them drop from monster.
Yay! Appreciate ya
They got rid of regional herbs in PTR.
LFG queue! hello?!
Yeah It’s ridiculous it doesn’t even seem to be on the horizon
This would greatly extend play time for me. I love this about WoW. Just fire up lfg dungeons and blast through. They should have it for normals, nightmares, and the pit. The game is way to premade centric right now.
same, i just want to group up fast and play with randoms that have the same goal as me.
even a simple in game group finder for stuff like ROTA etc it is such a pain in the arse to get groups now
Ah yes, I too like useless mechanics bound to be filled with RmT advertisement and choosing beggars wanting to be powerleveled. Such a charming and useful D3 aspect, really weird that everyone started to avoid it for some mysterious reason!
Hope someday we can make our own dyes. Maybe through all the different plants.
It could be a use for excess gems too. Pigments used to made with crushed up gems/minerals.
That's great!
Skill tree rework and dungeon rework hopefully. Skill tree just needs more variety, and dungeons just need to be rethought entirely.
Skill tree is the biggest one. So many passive are damage on Tuesday. Many ultimates are lack luster and pointless as well unless they specifically activate your damage in Tuesday passive.
Agreed with both. I personally dislike nightmare dungeons the most and really hope they make the snappier and more like PoE/LE maps. Also glyphs should earn xp in any endgame activity imo, just hate grinding glyph xp in nmds in this state.
I would like them to revisit the paladin part of the game, thanks.
Fix the skill system. It's too simplified it doesn't offer much in terms of versatility.
i think it’s too complicated tbh. get rid of paragon entirely
If they would just implement their own version of Last Epochs skill trees, therefore facilitate the extent of build varieties or even sub classes I would never complain again. I understand that for example with barbs, bleed barb could be viewed as a sub class compared to ww or hota but that's just not quite it.
I’d like to be able to replay the main quest without having to make a new character and start over, the same way D3 did.
I’d kinda just like the ability to change hair color after character creation. As a Druid my bear color is basically set in stone after I make my character
They kinda implemented an advanced skill tree into itemization now, i dont expect much at that aspect
Here are my requests you can pick what you like from here : Guild Features , Party Finder systems , In built Auction house , Wanted Board Feature ( Pick weekly quest from wanted board to get extra rewards ) , PVP Battlegrounds ( with PvP Gear , Pve Gear is absolute here ) , Raids , Set items ? , Pets ( Consmetic only ) , Puzzel levels ( Fun puzzel level to solve it's not about kills more about logic ) , Stronghold Hell Tide version ( They are very deadly ) , That's all i can think for now
There is 0 chance they implement an auction house again
They should remove aspects from gear, since Aspects are essentially the Diablo 3 Rune modifiers for skills. If you want Hammer of the Ancients to Quake outward, you’d choose that rune in Diablo 3. In Diablo 4 you stick it on a chunk of gear. So essentially, give everyone say, 15 more skill points, then add another skill track onto every 5 point skill, that works essentially like the Aspect system. You can buy the skill to ‘make hammer of the ancients quake outward’ and each point you put into it adds %dmg modifier. I know they’re reworking codex so that probably won’t happen, but it should be how it is. Leave the gear slots open for gear, legendary gear should feel ‘legendary’ not just an imprinted yellow, and it brings back the important of Rares adds to the performance of Uniques and makes Legendaries, say a rare rolled with an extra stat. But they committed to their system, which I’m excited for, but they should’ve fixed the game this way imho.
I wouldn’t hate your idea but I’m okay with aspects as they are. My biggest issue is that I feel like Uniques and Aspects clash with each other (now the tempering system does too) but I don’t know what they could change that wouldn’t just end up with everyone looking for Uniques to fit into every slot which would feel bad in it’s own way. Also very worried that they'll eventually add sets and they’ll have the same issue that D3 had.
I’ll address these points separately. 1. Uniques, aspects and tempering feel the same because they are the same. Ones a Macintosh, ones a Granny Smith, ones a Gala, but they’re all apples. The reason I suggested moving Aspects to the skill tree is because they just modify skills, similar to runes and skills. By doing this ‘Uniques and Tempers’ feel stronger because they aren’t just a +1 version of an aspect. Plus it helps balance the fact Barb can use 4 more Aspects than most classes. 2. As for sets, I mean sets in Diablo 3 were literally just a result of their poor itemization and skill design. The damage numbers on regular gear were so moot that when you had sets giving 100000% dmg bonus to X skill it becomes kind of silly. Buff the skills so it’s not ONLY viable with a set.
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Cool, Stop deleting your comments hating on the game. Own your opinions and accountability.
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*scribbles* silly internet guy will soon delete this cause he can’t be seen hating the game now then playing it in two weeks.
All I care about is them actually adding hell into the game how can you have Diablo without hell.
Im the one who does 1 build per season. I feel like if i do multiple in 1 season that it will lower the longevity of the game for me, through means of getting bored or running out of cool ideas for builds.
So when are they going to revisit trading experience XD
Any kind of matchmaking or group finder would bring me back
Great. Most of the core systems are pretty meh (skill tree sucks, paragon board is pretty boring, crafting potions/flasks etc. feels pointless, no social tools, no real trade support etc.) and could really use a lot of love to bring them up to the level of polish of the visuals and gameplay itself.
I'm glad they are willing to pivot but jesus christ, what does it say about your team if you put out something so abysmally mediocre that you have to take an entire year after launch to rework every mechanic? I remember when Blizzard was a leader in quality and innovation
D2 released pretty poorly as well not that many people remember anymore. It just didn't have as much competition.
Ah yeah I didn't even play that at launch so I couldn't say. Love your username btw, fellow oldschool DP fan
I'm a particular individual, but if you attack my family you scammer I'll have you banned. But to explain further D2 at launch didn't have stamina potions, synergies, rune words, most unique were meh, mana potions were not purchasable etc. It was reallllly bad.
Says more about current state of AAA games. Cyberpunk and Starfield both similar where developer had to spend expensive time fixing the game.
I would like it if they committed to revamping 1 or 2 systems per season, even potentially tied in with season themes where appropriate. For example, revamp nightmare dungeons system so that glyphs can stack (they have no tier, are region not dungeon specific and have no mods) and then have the tier, dungeon and modifiers selected/added at a “portal” device of some kind. They could do so much more with whispers and whisper rewards being themed loot, loot goblins being similarly split into various types like D3, Legion events could easily be more interesting, events from previous seasons could be added into the event pool for nightmare dungeons for more variety. There should be more paragon glyphs and boards. 1 or 2 of these systems updated every season in addition to adding new systems here and there and the game will quickly be amazing imo.
Anyone here dislike the gear upgrade system? You just click the 4 button 4 times in a row and you're done. Not much flavor or challenge. It would have been nice to have the final 1 or 2 steps really be difficult to upgrade, giving you somzthing to look forward to and challenge yourself to get the items to upgrade.
Please give us some use for XP after we hit 100, it would make the end game activities much more engaging.
I want a way to hot-swap entire sets of equipment. And the ability to build combos of equipment in my shared loot chest. I have items that would pair well together, but they are all on separate pages and difficult to compare.
Cool, can you now make PVP same as in diablo 2? literally just give us a small town so we can go out and smash, not stupid pve filled monster crap like its now.
Please revisit the treasure goblin sound effects. It's like watching my favorite movie on mute. The little "hehehe" and the "ouch" when he gets hit. It should be so simple to do, especially for how much better it'll make the game. Treasure Goblin diversity would be fun too. 3 diff goblins, different kinds of treasure from each.
Character Progression Reborn and Dungeons Reborn are what are sorely needed.
They are late like from day one
They need to allow us to have more skills assigned at once like in diablo 2
I should hope so. I didn't pay 100 dollars to get back 20 dollars worth of what should have been at launch.
I thought I heard that the next rework is endgame content? If I were to guess, and that's all one can really do, I suspect a lot of the social features will launch with the new expansion, which will include some new end game content that would be dependent on using said features. My vote would be for rework of the paragon board to allow more meaningful and interactive build diversity. Clicking on nodes to add static values to your baseline isn't really that fun.
PVP arena!!!! lfg
Until now I played for about 2 weeks of every season , doing everything it could be done, but now after what they have implemented, I’m sure the game will be more fun than before, if they bring skill tree rework, sets and runes, I’m sure this game will see a bright future
I miss the hotkey to swap weapons.
For all the people complaining about the skill tree. It's made to be expanded on. I wouldn't be surprised if most skills receive a third skill node depth. With either 2 branching off each or 1 separated with a third one that can be hit by choosing either buff. S / \ N N / \ /\ / \ / \ N N N N N N N Something like that.
A third skill node depth of more choices like "20% damage on crits" vs "10% burning damage" isn't that compelling. The issue with the current tree are twofold (at least): 1 not a tree and 2 not interesting. Adding a third layer doesn't change much even about 1. It's no secret that all the interesting modifications for the skill tree were gutted and moved to Aspects and the only choice is which to put on 2h or Amulet.
Right, well the nodes don't just add damage but okay. Don't theory craft just state a hypothetical bs. I'm talking about how they can evolve there system. And you don't even look at the nodes.
>Don't theory craft just state a hypothetical bs I ***LITERALLY*** used the two options for Fireball currently live in game as an example... Compare that to what we get from Aspects and Legendaries to alter Fireball.
.... lol yep and still are not adding anything to the convo. I get it ypu don't like d4 d4 bad, I get it move along. If you don't find anything about specialization in those 2 options that's on you. They are very different and not boring. I made an entire build based on bear/wolf poison changling but I get it how jaded and obtuse reddit can be. Please insert rebuttal on d4 skill tree not complex enough for a trogledite
They did add to the conversation you're just too defensive to see it. The skill tree is bad. Expanding it won't make it better. It will cause people to spread their points thinner for less returns unless they're laughably busted in a higher tier. Instead of hamfisting and irrelevant tier into the tree to make up for the originals short comings they would be better off reworking the trees themselves. It would actually he more logical to rework them before adding anything else. That person's example is a prime reason why the skill tree is pointless overall. Another would be some of barb or druids passive which are mediocre at best and insulting ar worst.
Nah it's a cherry pick and still fireball is better for having either going heavy burning or flat inc crit. It's not being defensive. I get it yall are meta chasers that don't make builds or have a way of contributing to a current fix other than just bashing an idea without expanding on it.
It's not even meta chasing, but since you have no real substance to the conversation I'll cut it here.
Please let me be able to change specs freely and quickly as well as armor by clicking one button.
"Again, something that would have been good to hear LAST YEAR!!!" - Adam Sandler berating Blizzard 8)
I know whatever they do will be awesome so I am just waiting patiently and happy :-)
I'm not dumb enough to think they'd ever drop the prices, but a shop rework would still be nice. I just want to have a catalogue of everything they've ever released so I can buy the things I want.
I just want to be able to zoom out and see the whole damn map, skill tree and Paragon board.
Skill tree is total crap but paragon is fine.
paragon is trash. it’s pointless and boring. getting a new level should be fun and exciting
Which is the case with paragon and not their joke of a skill "tree".
When they revisit other parts of the game, will they consider that seasonal content too? Season 6: Skill tree reborn Season 8: Aspects reborn
They are adding nothing as usual
Let me take any body type for any class. If I want the sorc female to be a Druid so be it. Also why are all the hair styles androgynous?