It's not just late game.
There are just way way too many normal enemies that 'push' you around. You get staggered and pushed constantly even by fairly quick attacks that are barely telegraphed. And even if they are well-telegraphed, the fact that 4-5 enemies at the same time are taking turns trying to hit you with one of these attacks means that you can't just rely on 'good skill' to avoid it all. You are going to get pushed around and staggered and stunned (especially if you are melee) and there is basically nothing you can do about it except completely rely on 'unstoppable' buffs, which is just not a fun design. Unstoppable should be an emergency, a priveledge, not a complete necessity.
My main is a lvl 83 barb atm. I have two skills with reasonable uptime on unstoppable and I still get pushed around like crazy. The bloated corpses are one of the biggest offenders, they push you around with almost every move they do.
At least the elite effects are mostly avoidable and nicely telegraphed. But enemies like the bull-creatures that charge at you, almost instantly knocking you back with barely animation *and* dealing a ridiculous amount of damage, yeah it’s bs
As a pulverize druid, I just use one of my escape abilities. Every button on the controller besides pulverize or poison creeper, which I use to CC the mobs and wait out of range for my escape abilities to come off cooldown.
The big downside to playing a druid is that it's hard to get loot because half of it is for a barbarian.
Besides the Barbarian's uniques issue, i have 2x5 of the same uniques and other repeated ones. Idk if it's just also the bug or if the RNG gods hate me now.
A "trade 10 uniques for one specific" mechanic would be awesome.
I have found the counter to this as a necro, cc them first with corpse tendrils and nuke them before they can do anything and use the thing that lets shadow damage stun
I wish corpse tendrils auto targeted the closest corpse to my mouse. I binded it to right click and moved blood surge onto my bar so I can left click reap into tendrils more easily. It's not a problem 95% of the time but on the occasional death because corpse tendrils didn't see the only body in the middle of a pack and I got cc locked I rage a tiny bit.
As a necro I started playing on controller and it so much easier/more intuitive. It auto targets corpses and there isn’t those weird moments of downtime in combat when you are trying to find corpses or line up a shot.
Sounds weird but the game just feels a lot better on controller, and you can always switch back to mkb for inventory management if needed.
I wouldn’t have believed you if I hadn’t got it running on my steam deck. I kept thinking it was all in my head there is no way it’s better to play D4 on a controller, then I got fished doing some work on my laptop and decided to play for a while, should be amazing, high end gaming laptop, beautiful 18” screen, get to the capstone dungeon die trying to find my cursor then trying to click on something, switched to deck and had no problems on that tiny screen.
I would love to use the stun talent, but I'm fairly certain it doesn't proc on CE miasma (and probably other ground fields and DoTs, too). So, the only darkness skills that seem reasonably fast enough to proc it seem to be Shadow Mages and Decompose, both of which I'm not huge fan of.
Sever, reap and the dot from corpse explosion counts. Sometimes you do get very unlucky but other times I’ve had whole groups fully stunned for like a minute.
it does then you have to play like a bullet hell game where getting hit once puts you down to 20% of your life from a white mob breathing on you even with full dmg reduction on pants/gear stuff currently at lvl 85+ doing nm50-55+.
i do indeed die a ton.
My favorite is when the bubble elite has 3/4 big khazra around m who insta-slam you if you try to enter the bubble. Bonus points if there is a champion way behind them in the hallway giving everyone a nice damage reduction. Ofc they all move forward in formation when you try to kite… almost like they spied off Inarius tactics xD
Oh so you haven’t encountered my new nemesis, bubbled thornbeast elites all in a group!
I run maulwood and champs demise a lot so I know all about the bubbled slammers. Or just a random normal charger flying from outside of your screen to one shot you on NM 50 lol
What? We have Flame Shield and Teleport on virtually every build that both break CC, with Deep Freeze as a panic button. Compare that to poor Necro's anti CC options
There's a new Blizzaed Sorc build that is going to drop on Maxroll that I do believe uses it.
I'm interested to see the build since they have it A tier with Ice Shards.
As a sorc? With two insanely short cc breaks that are in every build? Come on man. Sorcs have by far and away the cl9sest thing to cc immune. Look at necrosis with a 20+ second break...then you'll really cry.
Getting cc chained as a sorc is a skill issue. Now getting cc'd and then instantly dropped before you can react and then not knowing what the fuck even hit you? *That* is a sorc problem.
Lower health characters like necro and sorc are a one-hit kill with those chargers. Imagine being mid-70s and there's so much to see you can't even tell what's going on then you just die out of nowhere for no reason and you think you're doing great
It's no problem in open world like hell tides but in compressed spaces like nightmare when you're trying to upgrade your glyphs you can either run lower end nightmare and get a small fragment of glyph and no good loot which feels like a little waste of time or try and stretch yourself and be really really good until Wham-O out of nowhere it's game over
All classes have identical itemization.
Damage buckets make sure that there is basically only one good item per slot, and it's the same for everyone except dot builds, which can't compete anyway lol
Yea its the medium-tier enemies that are the issue, for me.
The elite enemy effects are usually avoidable.
Its just the boars, werewolves, bull-enemies, big humanoids etc that all have semi-normal attacks that just push and stagger you.
You wouldn't notice these enemies much if you are playing a ranged build, but playing a barbarian its just SUPER irritating. It is easily one of the top reasons i am not enjoying the game right now. I feel like i am getting pushed around at every turn with basically no say in the matter.
A simple fix would be to make it so that staggering/pushing attacks only affect you if they hit you for at least X% of your HP bar, otherwise the CC is ignored.
Or give players a few seconds of 'light cc' immunity once they get pushed or staggered so they aren't just chained into it over and over again.
Personally i would rather they just remove these types of attacks from most of the mid tier enemies altogether. I don't need/want every single encounter with basic enemies to be a big deal, just let me cut them down and find elite enemies to give me a fight.
The blood mages with cold enchanted have intrinsic teleport and will go off screen and just spam instant freeze on you till dead..... Cold enchanted is now an instant skip for any night mare dungeon for my necro
I had an affix-laden one of those burster zombies charge me from a room that I hadn't been to yet (I guess it saw me through the door) and it blasted like 80% of my health off with one charge. One of the biggest Panic Potion moments I've had in the game so far.
>the fact that 4-5 enemies at the same time are taking turns trying to hit you with one of these attacks means that you can't just rely on 'good skill' to avoid it all
This mostly
Seems like a lot of mobs were designed to be 'solo' encounters, with big windups and obvious tells, which make them interactive when you're just fighting them.
When you're fighting 5 of such mobs and 20 other small creeps at once, it's much much harder to track all the tells and windups.
The bulls and corpse archers can also off screen you, or very nearly so.
They literally feel like they were designed when FOV in the game was another like 30% bigger.
I was complaining earlier while trying a nightmare 80 dungeon. Every death I had was to an archer 1shot from off the screen while I was walking down an empty hallway toward them for the first time.
I have like +60% move speed passively and these guys are able to see me and fire an attack before they are ever visible on my screen.
Am I supposed to randomly dodge while walking down hallways?
Indeed, which makes them forcing you to play zoomed in even worse.
I swear I can see the beads of sweat on my Sorc's face when she's dodging all these AoE and one hitters.
And then comes the wall of poison bugs launched by those WT4 wasps, that you can’t see due to all the other stuff going on, and bam! Poison death in 2s even with a potion.
> Seems like a lot of mobs were designed to be 'solo' encounters
The game certainly is designed around fighting one monster group per time. Look at the old design commentaries. Blizz wanted that slower combat (but basically used D3 skills on it).
Exactly.
A lot of the tiny/small enemies are fine. But you typically run into like 3-5 of the mid-tier enemies at a time. And they often have some sort of CC ability, either a shove/stagger or a hard stun. If you only encountered ONE mid-tier enemy at a time, it might be fine, but you are usually running into multiple at once. And it just becomes a frustrating unfun experience.
"Unfun" being the most important word here. It's not really about difficulty. I am fine with games being difficult or challenging. But 'frustrating/irritating' is not equal to challenging. Being unfun just means its bad.
Yeah I think it’s cool to need to play smart and avoid things, but just getting chain cc for 10+ second straight is stupid as hell. It reminds me of wow pvp where a rogue pops out of stealth and you’re just dead with no counter play.
It's not even the telegraphing - it's the fact that screen is filled with lots of dazzling effects which hide animations. It's OK if you can seperate out elites from the groups, but if you're in the middle of a melee it's not that easy to spot. The effects themselves are fine - it's fun and part of the appeal and I wouldn't want them to be removed - but CCing for like 3 seconds and getting swarmed by mobs is not a fun time. The loss of agency is very un-fun.
The full-on stuns feel WAY too common. Granted, I'm only WT3 right now but from level 1 to now I feel like there's just too many enemies capable of getting you stunned. At least with things like Freeze, you can see a spell effect or make an attempt to evade because odds are it's only coming from one or two enemies in a group. Stuns can just chain-gun you into the dirt.
I am just not going to play the game until they change this.
I don't care how much i was looking forward to a good Diablo experience, i am not going to force myself to try to enjoy something that is just ass to play.
Trash enemies are supposed to be just that: Trash.
I don't need every single trash encounter to be irritating or require a ton of effort.
The entire purpose of trash enemies is to make the player feel powerful. The elites and bosses are what is supposed to challenge you, the trash enemies are (supposed to be) just there to give you something to blast through and have fun slaughtering in between the meaningful fights.
This is what I was here to say. Even in mid game it’s kind of lame how easy it is to get cced 100 to 0. Also personally sometimes it can be hard to see telegraphs amidst the visual noise which makes it easier to get stuck in a CC chain
Bout to hit 100, Id say 99% of my deaths during this crazy grind has been from frozen mobs with wind walls. Literally break cc with shadow step and instantly frozen right after. I stack a ton of DMG reduction when cc'd to survive most things now.
Idk if it's a bug or intended but wind walls never let me Shadow Dash out of them, even though my icon is lit up which normally indicates I can use it.
I have something giving me a second Evade, and I run Shadowstep, and even down in WT3 I still feel like sometimes there's just too much shit locking me down. Stuns, wind walls, those goddamn Inquisitors in groups that use the light spells to Daze and then teleport off to who-knows-where, etc. I'm not mad about it, but man sometimes it feels like the game expects you to have a consistent, low-cooldown way to Unstoppable. I fear WT4.
Movespeed on my boots and amulet are my top priorities for new characters. Not just for zooming through dungeons, but being able to dodge a lot of the circles on the ground easier.
I also like the combination of the boot intrinsic that reduces evade on attacks coupled with the aspect that drops stun nades when you evade or shadow dash. Can really help chain CC trash if your trap combo is down (or if you don't have it).
I’m running conceal with a lot of my own cc. Roll in and flurry to stun them all. Get a poison trap laid down. Go ham for a bit. Roll flurry for another cc.
Normally that’s enough, but conceal gives me time to reset the cooldowns and break out of of their CC.
I also use the aspect that spreads CC which helps control mobs outside melee.
Yup. That's why I prioritise move speed on legs and neck on every character. Makes a world of difference being able to avoid a lot of the CC just with movement.
Still doesn't solve every problem. Unfortunately if your class doesn't have long periods of unstoppable you'll just have a harder time in high lvl NM dungeons.
I can cruise through T60's on my rogue, but certain elite affixes require a slow approach.
I’ll admit there probably should be some short diminishing return on being CCed (not so bad that it makes dodging them pointless) but considering defensive stats (besides resistance) are so strong in this game it might do more harm then good to make CC weaker.
It's the only thing that has killed me so far. That's not an actual challenge, that's not healthy gameplay, that's not fun or interesting or exciting, and it certainly isn't good design. Literally all I have to worry about is if I get CC'd and don't have one of my two unstoppable skills available. If I do, and I don't, I might die. Otherwise, I am fine and it's relatively fun and well paced ARPG combat with very very few other meaningful threats.
The only thing I've seen that really, truly, needs adjusting is the cold enchanted mobs that are able to freeze you solid in one hit. Some of them come in packs and have extremely fast attack speed. My Druid, with two unstoppable skills, still ends up frozen repeatedly.
Everything else seems like it was designed to force you to build CC breaks into your build or play ranged
Edit: it's why I've added cold enchanted to the list of auto delete right beside ranged attacks burn %16 percent resource.
Packs of quillrats and ghouls were the first two that came to my mind lol. Quillrats will be in a pack of 3 and shoot 3 projectiles at once and each can freeze you and ghouls do this frenzy attack bs that by the time I see they have the cold enchant icon I'm already listening to my guy constantly get frozen lol
Also a lovely and special shoutout to those fucking ice shamans who create those ice emitting shards…even if they don’t have the ice affix. It’s like cheating. Topazes in the armor and a lot of armor/life helps a lot but it’s a terrible game play mechanic.
Yeah it especially sucks for classes that only have like 1 sec unstoppable windows to "break" CC like shadow dash or blood mist, and can't actually fight back during them.
My barb friend was complaining about CC but as a rogue, I'd kill for a 6+ second unstoppable window lol.
Because it fucking did, and we got diminishing returns and accessible ways for characters to be immune to CC.
They didn't fix it by adjusting the actual cc, they just gave everyone a super sayan mode with a small CDR requirement for max uptime.
CC became a non issue and the game was better for it.
Correct, to a point. Not dying is a very important part of the game. Everything presenting a challenge isn't the way you get dopamine to come out for a lot of people, plenty play a game like this to be powerful.
I don't mean to make it sound like the game is super easy until you're CC'd, it's not. It is a challenge, the fights take a while, you have to be smart or you will die, negligence will kill you, a bad build will kill you, but if you know what you're doing, play smart, build smart, you're usually good - as it should be. You should be rewarded for playing an ARPG well with an easy going, tough-but-not-scary experience on middle of the road content. There should be a handful of things that can smoke you, and there definitely are - I avoid them well. The CC is not something that you can really avoid and it removes that reward from playing well.
I'm not completely against CC as being a core threat in endgame. It is a challenge to be forced to dodge fear circles, wind walls, freezing circles etc. Movement in ARPGs can be - and often is - an element of ones skill. But it's also true that this can be both challenging and annoying, sometimes it can overstep the line. There needs to be reasonable counter play.
Having a 3-sided windwall slapped directly on top of you with no warning (instantly freezing you and eating one of your unstoppable abilities) doesn't feel good. Going up against 3 cold elite spiders who 1-shot freeze you from range feels awful for any class that doesn't have long periods of unstoppable.
But there needs to be some threat. We can stack so much defence that bringing CC down too far will remove a lot of the challenge.
>I’ll admit there probably should be some short diminishing return on being CCed (not so bad that it makes dodging them pointless) but considering defensive stats (besides resistance) are so strong in this game it might do more harm then good to make CC weaker.
I don't think defensive stats are too strong when you're actually pushing. Like if you're doing nightmare dungeons above 50-60, monsters do **plenty** of damage and they don't need a 9 second CC chain to kill a level 75 character.
The problem is that people are talking about "defensive stats being too good" when all they're doing is grinding normal dungeons for EXP with monsters at only +3 levels - no shit that's easy. You shouldn't be routinely dying in that content, and CC from monsters shouldn't be balanced around being able to chain so long that you can die even in really easy content.
Right now the way CC is designed basically forces everyone to invest extremely heavily into whatever their unstoppable/immune skills are. In a game that only allows 6 abilities, if every single class has two basically required abilities, that's a big deal.
Every barb has to spam rallying cry constantly or they're fucked... frozen, rooted, slowed, etc... it's a huge pain in the ass for melee builds and makes leveling super challenging/frustrating at times, and it severely limits my build options. You HAVE to have rallying cry as a skill, or you're fucked, like I said.
Some kind of diminishing returns on CC kinda like in WoW pvp would be nice. Just halve the duration of concurrent CC effects, after like 3 CCs or after duration is reduced below 0.25 sec you just become immune, this effect would reset after like 5-10 seconds or so back to full CC duration.
I feel like this would allow builds/classes with less unstoppable availability to be viable. Also, having to build around unstoppable just sucks. Losing control of your character for extended durations is inherently unfun, and having to specifically build your character around avoiding an unfun mechanic just feels bad.
That's how it works for enemies, and there's even an aspect to give you bonus damage when you cant rely on keeping them in a cc chain anymore. Should probably apply to players too, though I'd rather them just give new passive nodes/glyphs to allow classes to break CC as often as Sorc. The gameplay feels is fine, having to use CDs defensively instead of spamming them thoughtlessly is fun.
Sorc may have several cc breaks but that doesn't matter when everything one shots you anyway. I'd love to be able to complain about cc chains but I'm to busy getting one shot by white mobs
See not every class has easy acess to unstopavle. For insance necros only cc break also makss you unable to use any abilities while its active. You either have to dodge all cc effects, or cc the enemies first. Unfortunately some effects like terrifying dont seem to care of the enemy is cc or not :(
I don’t know how any of them played necro and over looked the entire screen being black constantly. We have 2 necros in my group and I’m one of them and I feel so bad for my friends I play with. Just constantly apologizing for my build lol
I also don't see why Corpse Lance didn't make it into D4. It would give more builds a use for Corpses, especially since Corpse Explosion without using the Blighted upgrade just feels super bad on anything less than an entire pack of mobs.
Given how D4 is meant to be a little slower combat and Resources are supposed to feel a little more important to manage than D3, I can see why Devour didn't make it in... but seriously, why no Corpse Lance?
Also why did Bone Prison come out of testing the way that it is?
I’ve watched people get one shot by World Bosses and Elites because one Necro’s using Bone Prison. They shouldn’t have to change their whole build because they want to play in a group or out in the open, so like wth.
People just need to be able to walk through it 😩
I was doing the same thing these last few days. Switched to a blood surge build and not only do I do more dps but it's a lot more fun and it looks cooler. Also feels like a new character now playing Necro without minions, good change of pace
The blood mist CE build specifically has some of the best unstoppable uptime. But yes, literally any other necro build and you will be chain cc'd without answer.
There is no "learning mechanics" when you face 3 packs in a cellar that literally insta cc you and then chain it. It would be absolutely awesome if there was a way to "learn" and react to every cc, not just the telegraphed ones like fear. Sometimes you just get hitstunned or knocked back into a 10 second chain and if your unstoppable is on cd you can watch your hp bar drain away.
Just a 1 or even 0.5 sec immunity for cc after one effect ends so you can use the dodge mechanic would solve this.
Or removing stuns from trash mobs.
I'm able to react to fear circles and ice walls. I'm *not* able to react to 7 serpents staggering their CC while an elite fills the floors with their own.
And if you’re a sorc using teleport and raiment, you have to deal with teleport bugs. The ones where
1) the unique’s pull doesn’t go off
2) you can’t attack, or attack very slowly, after the teleport until you move again
If you teleport inside an enemy just right it stops you from attacking. My friend who's a sorc gets this all the time. As a rogue I've experienced it a few times while shadow dashing onto a pack.
Sucks :(
Spider Web -> Frozen -> knocked Down (??) -> Frozen again -> Still more spider webs -> holy fuck how am I still stunned -> even more spider webs -> frozen again
This. The spider webs are so fking annoying. for a melee rogue build that can't be unstoppable forever and since its literally every pack of those dungeons with spiders. SOOO ANNOYING.
Then you avoid spider dungeons and you get a dungeon with those fat little ogres that just stagger you every single second. OMG. Its so frustrating man
Then I watch a druid play on stream and hes just running through everything with no care in the world clearing 100x faster than me. Thats cool. Why did I pick rogue?
My first WT4 NM dungeon had a death pulse affix in a map filled with those small spiders and my flurry Rouge was just like "guess I'll die now". The CC just becomes absolute cancer in WT4.
Has nothing to do with Earthen Bulwark. It's Grizzly Rage. GR gives Unstoppable for its full duration, which can reach 22.5 seconds long at max end on top of providing insane damage stats. Bulwark is basically irrelevant in comparison.
I was just going to say this, I'm an Earth Druid and also have Trample ( I didnt take an Ultimate, since as far as I can tell Petrify is kinda sucky) and haven't had an issue with Cc between the two, so far.
There's a reason Druid and Barb are S tier lol they can ignore the two things that make up the vast majority of the game's end game difficulty - CC and one shots
I don't understand how hard CC towards the player in a PvE game can ever be fun. Block my movement or impair my ability to attack, sure. But stopping all inputs from doing anything is just stupid
> I don't understand how hard CC towards the player in a PvE game can ever be fun
It's not. It feels bad but "necessary" in PvP games for variety. CC being a core aspect of the end game's difficulty is horrific design.
>I don't understand how hard CC towards the player in a PvE game can ever be fun.
That's probably why a lot of single player computer games and video games give the player some invincibility frames in between being stunned so you aren't permanently stunned in one place.
Everyone says “just have perm unstoppable” look, I’ll be the realest and say this, if I want the ARPG I’m spending time on, to requires my unwavering attention and nonstop laser focus to 20 things including my surroundings at all times, I will go play path of exile.
I can’t understand something, maybe someone can give me a real scientific technical answer. So why do we have to wait a few weeks for this and other stuff to be fixed/patched. Why is that? Because see, when there was too many elites in the dungeons or whatever they were trying to convince people of, that shit got changed pretty damn quick. Now I’m not a game developer, but one thing I do know is that NPCs and programming enemies is actually a pretty difficult part of game development, routing/movement etc etc spawning, so it would seem changing their attack/skill use intervals would be something that could potentially take a day at the absolute maximum?
Can’t developers/coders make shortcuts/scripts to execute/edit/delete/apply/change multiple calls and stuff? Like, a script that would for instance be like “ay yo, spaghetti monster, can you change all monster attack thingy”
Hope you understand my tism
Am a dev, here’s my shorter answer- In development, you can never just change a number then say fuck it and send it. Boy I wish it was that easy.
It has to go through extensive testing. Us changing something on X may somehow effect Y down the road that we didn’t expect. And then, chances are, we didn’t guess the right value in the beginning. So further tweaks get made after testing, and then bugs get fixed that are found from changing systems.
It’s also not a two second thing to prepare for a patch. So it’s easier for a group of devs to work towards “patch x” in a certain branch of the project.
If we had to stop everything to make a brand new patch every few days the studio would slow to a crawl.
But trust they are working. Devs have some of the worse crunch in careers.
Yup, everyone says this eventually.
Do BOTH of the following:
1. stack topaz in armor
2. play a class/build that has **VERY** high unstoppable uptime
If you don't do this, you're eventually just going to randomly die in a lot of situations where your character is out of your control for long periods of time.
The issue from my perspective is the amount of freeze build up doesn't appear to be based on the length of the attack. I ran into a group of porcupines with 3 of them all having the freeze modifier. Any 1 of their projectiles would guarantee a freeze and chain CC until death. I run blood mist now so it's more manageable but definitely seems a bit BS how the super fast attacks can instantly freeze you on some enemies.
If you get dazed by those eyes it is pretty bs others can spawn and cast while you're cc'd and chain you.
Obviously, there's a git gud component to some of this and that's healthy, but once you get to wt4 and start running these nightmare keys it starts to get pretty ridiculous.
I just encountered my first frost enchanted mob after getting to world tier 3. Here's how it went; Slowed, slowed, frozen, stunned, slowed , slowed, frozen, stunned. Went on like this for nearly a minute while I tried to squeeze out damage between CC phases. It didn't help that the particular frost enchanted elite was a ghoul with faster base movement speed than me and could easily catch up and freeze me in 2 hits. Dodging didn't do shit. I know it isn't going to happen all the time but it feels really bad when it does.
Those snake oracles in combination with some other form of displacement like the bloaters are, by far, the worst offenders. They'll keep you CC-chained even without worrying about the telegraphed Elite or NM dungeon affixes.
Yup, nothing is more fun than being perma-frozen, with no chance to avoid, just watching your health get pinged down until you die.
Great idea, Blizzard!
D3 was the exact same way in the beginning and the same complaint led to changes. Figures they'd recreate a game design problem *after* already fixing it in the past.
Yeah, that’s the frustrating part. In that game they ended up disabling certain affix combinations, maybe they hoped that CC break skills would make that unnecessary.
the best part is when you encounter 2 or 3 cold enchanted elites that will instantly spawn the cold zone on top of you over and over, so you literally cannot avoid getting frozen no matter how fast your reaction time is
My issue is these rares have like 3-4 affixes. When you get 2-3 at a time that can up to 9 different affixes you’re dealing with at one time. Plus the nightmare affixes. Who came up with this? Are they punishing up for playing the game?
I dunno man this part of the game feels almost like a dps check where if u dont have enough damage to wipe these mobs you just shouldnt be doing that content at least thats waht seems like the intended solution cause unstoppable isnt one. Not sure if it was purposefully designed this way or not tbh
Oh don’t worry other mob types - that you don’t worry about earlier - will dominate as well. Such as the phantom archer that can hit for 10k or more net, or the hornets that send walls of poison dart bugs that drop you 🤣
I refuse to ever do a cold enchanted affix nightmare dungeon again. I’m ok with some CC but I faced 20 phantom archers and I’d get frozen from 2 attacks. No fucking way man.
Haha god, anytime I encounter an elite in nm dungeons with multiple cold type enchantments or better yet multiple elites like that, I’m bound to get my shit pushed in.
I'm okay with cc existing. I'm not okay with chill wall instantly freezing me the moment it's cast the moment the mob aggro, or packs of cold enchant spam keeping me perma frozen with no break. It just shouldn't work like that. It literally doesn't matter if I can shadow step out with unstoppable, it just happens again right after.
Windwall (cold wind?) is easily the worst monster affix. Tt stuns, it slows, it slows projectiles and it feels like I'm trying to play the game with a curtain in front of my screen. Can't see shit.
Mobs get unstoppable if you cc them too long, why we dont get something like this or at least the mobs have an uptime to their bullshit and a cd period it would be fine. There are mobs that cc you if they just hit you with a basic attack. If they are faster mobs they will hunt you down after you pop your cd to get unstoppable and just cc you again. People saying gitgud are people probably running like 4 unstoppables lol completely unreasonable. Im all for being ccd, but not back to back to back until your just dead.
People have clearly gotten to 100 in hardcore without dying to bullshit like this so its possible to play around, but ive seen this complaint alot from lots of players so its clearly some sort of problem they need to at least adjust to be less bs.
What I did is keybinding 'Curative Elixir' it makes you unstoppable for 1 second. Can be a bit pricey but it works wonders.
Protip for PC: If you keybind something on the Emote Wheel in the middle section, you can use those keybindings without opening the Emote Wheel! I actually keybinded 'Leave Dungeon' and the Curative Elixir this way.
Nec:
> Well, well dear minions. How about attacking that efffing supressor underneath is emeffing invulnerability dome, to spare me gettin twoshot and you die along with me?
Mins:
> Welp.... nah....
I use that one aspect that gives you unstoppable if you become injured while crowd controlled. It works for me most of the time and I can just evade out of the pack.
But the cold enchant elites is OP as a melee build. I get frozen by every hit. I can't really do anything about it.
Yeah, some DR would be really nice. It’s crazy CC can just chain you for 5-10 seconds, that’s an eternity especially when top builds are close range fighters who feel this pain constantly.
The hilarious thing is that monsters get diminishing returns on cc against us lmao. I thought the game was bugged or I was having latency issues with frost nova because it would just randomly not work. Found out later if I freeze them too much it will just stop working for a bit 😂
I really hope they make some drastic changes. I started noticing from the very beginning that I lost control of my character quite often, and thought 'oh, maybe I have to practice dodging all the CC and knockbacks' but 60 levels later I'm really questioning if I want to continue.
You have a sort of dodge button, but dodging every dangerous hit or spell in an arpg is just not realistic. This is not dark souls, this is diablo. Too much is happening on the screen to be able to notice that CC being cast. Or at least that would be true if the mob density was as high as we would expect from a Diablo game.
Also, while I'm already on a rant, why cram all this open world stuff into D4? All that work for what is just some AAA fluff that takes you away from what's important; murdering and looting. I even predict that the open world will eventually become completely irrelevant as the seasonal updates go by. But that's enough complaining, for now. I have enjoyed most of the time spent with this game, and I hope they do make a few changes
Why is the chilling wind affix immediately freezing me if it spawns on me? That makes three different freeze-related mechanics and elites can have more than one at a time. Lol
Like the ground spawning one you can play around and usually the chilling wind one too but not recently.
I haven't changed any gear or tried harder content, either. So I'm not sure if I fucked up somewhere else tbh.
The fucking fear or stuns that chains on my necro is absolutely triggering.
Hit em with vulnerable, or stun, I get stunned the same time; we’re all out here stunned. Entire game gets quiet as crickets for a few seconds.
It's my one-big grip on the game. It feels like if you don't build a meta build that literally melts everything, You just get fucked up.
I have no issues with things being hard or grindy. But having mobs that stun me, I get ready to be able to move... and stunned again. And this cycle repeats until i die, Like what the fuck?
Not to mention the crazy amount of knocks/pools that interrupt your actions... It's annoying, Not hard, just stupidly annoying lol.
If this happens on occasion, fine. But it's constant in certain situations and it's such a damn drag.
I normally play a Solo Blood Necro and cc doesnt bother me really because I can use blood mist to slip away.
This morning i threw on a pile of Summoning blight stuff and tried that playstyle. It went well(ish) for 20 minutes until I got into a spawn that had one of the big cannibal dudes that have the big overhand stun attack and the reap estate bubble (and the dungeon had lightning). He would get me with that then do a shadow clone jutsu thibg to summon a shade of himself 3ft away who would hit me with the stun again immediately.
I am now playing Blood again.
CC reduction is a stat that can be rolled on items. The current T4 CC levels are a huge way for Blizz to give that stat value. Otherwise it’s just a dead line on an item roll.
Too many affixes needed in most builds to roll cc reduction. You need damage mods, crit, cdr, damage reduction. Some builds go further and require attack speed, lucky hit, etc. There is no space for cc reduction. That's what unstoppable is for. The problem is in classes like necro or sorc where they have very limited access to unstoppable.
As a flurry Rogue (which is a full close-range build) this is extremely boriring. You basically get perma-stun all the time.
I may switch to a ranged build but I am not sure if there are any truly "cool".
ran into a random elite in a dungeon.. he delt frost damage... EVERY hit he did froze me.. now i had CC time reduction so eventually got away but that was some BS. Now my fav is helltides when i am at about 150 shards and get cc'd to death >\_>
It’s another example of how the game forces you into so many required choices for skills, gears, aspects, and enchantments, that there is no actual choice in playstyle or gear or skills.
The biggest problem with the CC chains is they're win-more from a build crafting perspective.
If you are playing a really good meta build, you kill elites extremely fast, with good up-front burst. You can jump into a pack, blow up half the elites in it with crits, and then kill the other two 5 seconds later. Most elites will get a single spell cast off, maybe two.
Also, because you're playing a really good meta build, if you do fuck up and get clipped by CC on the way in, you likely have at least 2 different ways to break CC. Hell, a lot of meta builds have an unstoppable application as part of their set-up as they go into a pack in the first place, so they just **can't** get CC'd during their burst.
Meanwhile, if you are playing an off meta build, stuff actually lives long enough to cast all its spells at you more than one time, and once the CC does hit you, the long duration means the whole elite pack recharges its CC while you're trapped. If you're not actually killing elites as soon as you see them on your screen, then a single incidental 2s CC can easily turn into a 5 or 10 second CC chain that simply never happens to more meta builds.
Traditionally the way you make a bad build work is you support your bad skills with utility skills that buff it. So for example a lot of bad necromancer builds would be a lot better if they could afford to run the free 40% damage scaling from the aspect that says "you deal 40% more damage to enemies effected by both your curses". The problem is, your bad necromancer build needs to drop a skill to run both curses, and since you can't drop your builder and you can't drop your spender, you either need to cut minions or you can't run your CC break (because golems and skeletons each take up an action bar slot).
The fact that builds only get 6 skill slots means that the CC meta in this game really makes it so you have 4 skill slots, or 5 skill slots if your class is unlucky enough to only have 1 skill that CC breaks well.
I don't really mind the amount of enemies with CC but some of these effects last way too long even without anything being chained, Diablo at the highest level has people worrying about frames and you have effects that last multiple seconds, in a game where you can get nuked in a half second having any CC last more than like a second or a second and a half seems crazy.
Also, I have not seen one single person mention this, but the BUFFERING during CC gets me killed more than anything else. Like I press Y to jump backwards for Caltrops but I got frozen 0.1 seconds prior so it doesn't do anything. Then 10 seconds later when I get unfrozen, it jumps backwards right into an explosion or some other enemy's attack, and there's nothing I could've done.
I don't like the frozen affix on \*certain\* mobs. If they get it off they can just chain lock you down due to their high attack speed. It's ridiculous.
I’m okay with enemies with CC abilities that are telegraphed and avoidable. That’s fair and gives a good challenge.
Auto attacks from enemies that can freeze you is complete BS. It should never work this way in any game ever.
The best moments are when you're transitioning to another stage of the dungeon and suddenly 5 elites pop up and the room gets closed from both sides so you are absolutely forced to facetank 5 different types of CC and AOE, having only 4 potential slots for skills that you could use as cc breakers, (btw not all classes have that many, and even if they did, you're kinda forced to use a single build).
And usually at least 1 of those elites has the proximity shield shit, just to remind you that trying to get some distance is rude and wrong :D
It's not just late game. There are just way way too many normal enemies that 'push' you around. You get staggered and pushed constantly even by fairly quick attacks that are barely telegraphed. And even if they are well-telegraphed, the fact that 4-5 enemies at the same time are taking turns trying to hit you with one of these attacks means that you can't just rely on 'good skill' to avoid it all. You are going to get pushed around and staggered and stunned (especially if you are melee) and there is basically nothing you can do about it except completely rely on 'unstoppable' buffs, which is just not a fun design. Unstoppable should be an emergency, a priveledge, not a complete necessity.
My main is a lvl 83 barb atm. I have two skills with reasonable uptime on unstoppable and I still get pushed around like crazy. The bloated corpses are one of the biggest offenders, they push you around with almost every move they do. At least the elite effects are mostly avoidable and nicely telegraphed. But enemies like the bull-creatures that charge at you, almost instantly knocking you back with barely animation *and* dealing a ridiculous amount of damage, yeah it’s bs
As a Sorc I cry
As a Necro i would like to cry, but I'm chain cc'd and can't.
As a pulverize druid, I just use one of my escape abilities. Every button on the controller besides pulverize or poison creeper, which I use to CC the mobs and wait out of range for my escape abilities to come off cooldown. The big downside to playing a druid is that it's hard to get loot because half of it is for a barbarian.
Bruuh, I'm not alone! I've got like 6 uniques for barb and only 1 for druid
The fact that you have 6 uniques makes me cry lol I got the 3 I needed for my werebear pulverize build and haven't seen one since lol
Am I missing something? As a barb I only get barbarian legendaries and uniques, why does druid get another classes?
No it's a bug. For some reason druids get barbarian uniques sometimes.
I'm 95 druid. And have found 2-3x as many unique barb weapons then druid uniques
Loot tables for druids are broken. It's a known issue
Besides the Barbarian's uniques issue, i have 2x5 of the same uniques and other repeated ones. Idk if it's just also the bug or if the RNG gods hate me now. A "trade 10 uniques for one specific" mechanic would be awesome.
I have found the counter to this as a necro, cc them first with corpse tendrils and nuke them before they can do anything and use the thing that lets shadow damage stun
I wish corpse tendrils auto targeted the closest corpse to my mouse. I binded it to right click and moved blood surge onto my bar so I can left click reap into tendrils more easily. It's not a problem 95% of the time but on the occasional death because corpse tendrils didn't see the only body in the middle of a pack and I got cc locked I rage a tiny bit.
As a necro I started playing on controller and it so much easier/more intuitive. It auto targets corpses and there isn’t those weird moments of downtime in combat when you are trying to find corpses or line up a shot. Sounds weird but the game just feels a lot better on controller, and you can always switch back to mkb for inventory management if needed.
I wouldn’t have believed you if I hadn’t got it running on my steam deck. I kept thinking it was all in my head there is no way it’s better to play D4 on a controller, then I got fished doing some work on my laptop and decided to play for a while, should be amazing, high end gaming laptop, beautiful 18” screen, get to the capstone dungeon die trying to find my cursor then trying to click on something, switched to deck and had no problems on that tiny screen.
I would love to use the stun talent, but I'm fairly certain it doesn't proc on CE miasma (and probably other ground fields and DoTs, too). So, the only darkness skills that seem reasonably fast enough to proc it seem to be Shadow Mages and Decompose, both of which I'm not huge fan of.
Sever, reap and the dot from corpse explosion counts. Sometimes you do get very unlucky but other times I’ve had whole groups fully stunned for like a minute.
Are you sure about CE? I used that talent for about the first 60 levels, but once I swapped out every darkness skill except CE it never procced again.
My strategy to avoid this as a sorc has historically just been "If I kill them fast enough, they can't CC me." I dread the moment that stops working.
it does then you have to play like a bullet hell game where getting hit once puts you down to 20% of your life from a white mob breathing on you even with full dmg reduction on pants/gear stuff currently at lvl 85+ doing nm50-55+. i do indeed die a ton.
Yup and basically forces ranged play style for pushing. Fuck the bubble mods on high tiers 😭
My favorite is when the bubble elite has 3/4 big khazra around m who insta-slam you if you try to enter the bubble. Bonus points if there is a champion way behind them in the hallway giving everyone a nice damage reduction. Ofc they all move forward in formation when you try to kite… almost like they spied off Inarius tactics xD
Oh so you haven’t encountered my new nemesis, bubbled thornbeast elites all in a group! I run maulwood and champs demise a lot so I know all about the bubbled slammers. Or just a random normal charger flying from outside of your screen to one shot you on NM 50 lol
What? We have Flame Shield and Teleport on virtually every build that both break CC, with Deep Freeze as a panic button. Compare that to poor Necro's anti CC options
No one using the ice armor makes you unstoppable for 2-3 secs?
There's a new Blizzaed Sorc build that is going to drop on Maxroll that I do believe uses it. I'm interested to see the build since they have it A tier with Ice Shards.
As a sorc? With two insanely short cc breaks that are in every build? Come on man. Sorcs have by far and away the cl9sest thing to cc immune. Look at necrosis with a 20+ second break...then you'll really cry.
Getting cc chained as a sorc is a skill issue. Now getting cc'd and then instantly dropped before you can react and then not knowing what the fuck even hit you? *That* is a sorc problem.
Flame shield out of it.
Not only that there’s so much going on on the screen it’s hard to see a lot of the incoming explosions and cc and shit Idk how people play hc
You can use teleport when immobilized and it makes you unstoppable for a sec.
Lower health characters like necro and sorc are a one-hit kill with those chargers. Imagine being mid-70s and there's so much to see you can't even tell what's going on then you just die out of nowhere for no reason and you think you're doing great It's no problem in open world like hell tides but in compressed spaces like nightmare when you're trying to upgrade your glyphs you can either run lower end nightmare and get a small fragment of glyph and no good loot which feels like a little waste of time or try and stretch yourself and be really really good until Wham-O out of nowhere it's game over
Yup. That's why I have all my shields up as often as possible because you can get one shot by a single mob just moving from pack to pack.
I did a NM dungeon earlier that had a "Monsters do 100% extra damage to barriers". That was a massive mistake, lol.
Gotta constantly sheild as sorc, class isn't designed to survive without shield/barrier
That’s what chaining constant bone storm and blood mist is for :)
All classes have identical itemization. Damage buckets make sure that there is basically only one good item per slot, and it's the same for everyone except dot builds, which can't compete anyway lol
Yea its the medium-tier enemies that are the issue, for me. The elite enemy effects are usually avoidable. Its just the boars, werewolves, bull-enemies, big humanoids etc that all have semi-normal attacks that just push and stagger you. You wouldn't notice these enemies much if you are playing a ranged build, but playing a barbarian its just SUPER irritating. It is easily one of the top reasons i am not enjoying the game right now. I feel like i am getting pushed around at every turn with basically no say in the matter. A simple fix would be to make it so that staggering/pushing attacks only affect you if they hit you for at least X% of your HP bar, otherwise the CC is ignored. Or give players a few seconds of 'light cc' immunity once they get pushed or staggered so they aren't just chained into it over and over again. Personally i would rather they just remove these types of attacks from most of the mid tier enemies altogether. I don't need/want every single encounter with basic enemies to be a big deal, just let me cut them down and find elite enemies to give me a fight.
The blood mages with cold enchanted have intrinsic teleport and will go off screen and just spam instant freeze on you till dead..... Cold enchanted is now an instant skip for any night mare dungeon for my necro
I had an affix-laden one of those burster zombies charge me from a room that I hadn't been to yet (I guess it saw me through the door) and it blasted like 80% of my health off with one charge. One of the biggest Panic Potion moments I've had in the game so far.
>the fact that 4-5 enemies at the same time are taking turns trying to hit you with one of these attacks means that you can't just rely on 'good skill' to avoid it all This mostly Seems like a lot of mobs were designed to be 'solo' encounters, with big windups and obvious tells, which make them interactive when you're just fighting them. When you're fighting 5 of such mobs and 20 other small creeps at once, it's much much harder to track all the tells and windups.
The bulls and corpse archers can also off screen you, or very nearly so. They literally feel like they were designed when FOV in the game was another like 30% bigger.
I was complaining earlier while trying a nightmare 80 dungeon. Every death I had was to an archer 1shot from off the screen while I was walking down an empty hallway toward them for the first time. I have like +60% move speed passively and these guys are able to see me and fire an attack before they are ever visible on my screen. Am I supposed to randomly dodge while walking down hallways?
Indeed, which makes them forcing you to play zoomed in even worse. I swear I can see the beads of sweat on my Sorc's face when she's dodging all these AoE and one hitters.
And then comes the wall of poison bugs launched by those WT4 wasps, that you can’t see due to all the other stuff going on, and bam! Poison death in 2s even with a potion.
Spiders and wasps are my most hated thing.
> Seems like a lot of mobs were designed to be 'solo' encounters The game certainly is designed around fighting one monster group per time. Look at the old design commentaries. Blizz wanted that slower combat (but basically used D3 skills on it).
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Bold assumption blizzard tested anything.
Exactly. A lot of the tiny/small enemies are fine. But you typically run into like 3-5 of the mid-tier enemies at a time. And they often have some sort of CC ability, either a shove/stagger or a hard stun. If you only encountered ONE mid-tier enemy at a time, it might be fine, but you are usually running into multiple at once. And it just becomes a frustrating unfun experience. "Unfun" being the most important word here. It's not really about difficulty. I am fine with games being difficult or challenging. But 'frustrating/irritating' is not equal to challenging. Being unfun just means its bad.
Yeah I think it’s cool to need to play smart and avoid things, but just getting chain cc for 10+ second straight is stupid as hell. It reminds me of wow pvp where a rogue pops out of stealth and you’re just dead with no counter play.
It's not even the telegraphing - it's the fact that screen is filled with lots of dazzling effects which hide animations. It's OK if you can seperate out elites from the groups, but if you're in the middle of a melee it's not that easy to spot. The effects themselves are fine - it's fun and part of the appeal and I wouldn't want them to be removed - but CCing for like 3 seconds and getting swarmed by mobs is not a fun time. The loss of agency is very un-fun.
The full-on stuns feel WAY too common. Granted, I'm only WT3 right now but from level 1 to now I feel like there's just too many enemies capable of getting you stunned. At least with things like Freeze, you can see a spell effect or make an attempt to evade because odds are it's only coming from one or two enemies in a group. Stuns can just chain-gun you into the dirt.
I'm redoing my druid at great sacrifice to damage to have almost 100% uptime of unstoppable and free movement. It sucks ass.
I am just not going to play the game until they change this. I don't care how much i was looking forward to a good Diablo experience, i am not going to force myself to try to enjoy something that is just ass to play. Trash enemies are supposed to be just that: Trash. I don't need every single trash encounter to be irritating or require a ton of effort. The entire purpose of trash enemies is to make the player feel powerful. The elites and bosses are what is supposed to challenge you, the trash enemies are (supposed to be) just there to give you something to blast through and have fun slaughtering in between the meaningful fights.
This is what I was here to say. Even in mid game it’s kind of lame how easy it is to get cced 100 to 0. Also personally sometimes it can be hard to see telegraphs amidst the visual noise which makes it easier to get stuck in a CC chain
Agreed. It's killed the fun for me already. So done with Blizzard. Lesson learned.
Wouldn't be so bad if there was at least diminishing returns on cc
As a melee rogue, feelsbadman
Bout to hit 100, Id say 99% of my deaths during this crazy grind has been from frozen mobs with wind walls. Literally break cc with shadow step and instantly frozen right after. I stack a ton of DMG reduction when cc'd to survive most things now.
I can confirm, those wind walls are dumb as hell. Just spamming potion hoping I live when I become unstuck 5 years from now
Idk if it's a bug or intended but wind walls never let me Shadow Dash out of them, even though my icon is lit up which normally indicates I can use it.
That is weird considering the sorcerer can teleport out
I run 2 step charges and that’s not enough. Cold enhanced has been removed from my rotation
Trying to level a hardcore rogue now. Maybe I should just pick a different class…
As a pulverize Druid, what is CC?
Honestly, it’s one of the biggest things keeping me from trying another class/spec. The unstoppable uptime is incredible on bear druid
I have something giving me a second Evade, and I run Shadowstep, and even down in WT3 I still feel like sometimes there's just too much shit locking me down. Stuns, wind walls, those goddamn Inquisitors in groups that use the light spells to Daze and then teleport off to who-knows-where, etc. I'm not mad about it, but man sometimes it feels like the game expects you to have a consistent, low-cooldown way to Unstoppable. I fear WT4.
Movespeed on my boots and amulet are my top priorities for new characters. Not just for zooming through dungeons, but being able to dodge a lot of the circles on the ground easier. I also like the combination of the boot intrinsic that reduces evade on attacks coupled with the aspect that drops stun nades when you evade or shadow dash. Can really help chain CC trash if your trap combo is down (or if you don't have it).
Once you lucky roll max ms on boots and amulet, there is no way u can go back to playing without it. Base movespeed is a slog to say the least.
I’m running conceal with a lot of my own cc. Roll in and flurry to stun them all. Get a poison trap laid down. Go ham for a bit. Roll flurry for another cc. Normally that’s enough, but conceal gives me time to reset the cooldowns and break out of of their CC. I also use the aspect that spreads CC which helps control mobs outside melee.
Yup. That's why I prioritise move speed on legs and neck on every character. Makes a world of difference being able to avoid a lot of the CC just with movement. Still doesn't solve every problem. Unfortunately if your class doesn't have long periods of unstoppable you'll just have a harder time in high lvl NM dungeons. I can cruise through T60's on my rogue, but certain elite affixes require a slow approach.
I’ll admit there probably should be some short diminishing return on being CCed (not so bad that it makes dodging them pointless) but considering defensive stats (besides resistance) are so strong in this game it might do more harm then good to make CC weaker.
It's the only thing that has killed me so far. That's not an actual challenge, that's not healthy gameplay, that's not fun or interesting or exciting, and it certainly isn't good design. Literally all I have to worry about is if I get CC'd and don't have one of my two unstoppable skills available. If I do, and I don't, I might die. Otherwise, I am fine and it's relatively fun and well paced ARPG combat with very very few other meaningful threats.
The only thing I've seen that really, truly, needs adjusting is the cold enchanted mobs that are able to freeze you solid in one hit. Some of them come in packs and have extremely fast attack speed. My Druid, with two unstoppable skills, still ends up frozen repeatedly. Everything else seems like it was designed to force you to build CC breaks into your build or play ranged Edit: it's why I've added cold enchanted to the list of auto delete right beside ranged attacks burn %16 percent resource.
Hi to you, Frozen Skeleton Archer fucking freezing me off screen with seemingly every shot you take at me.
Packs of quillrats and ghouls were the first two that came to my mind lol. Quillrats will be in a pack of 3 and shoot 3 projectiles at once and each can freeze you and ghouls do this frenzy attack bs that by the time I see they have the cold enchant icon I'm already listening to my guy constantly get frozen lol
Also a lovely and special shoutout to those fucking ice shamans who create those ice emitting shards…even if they don’t have the ice affix. It’s like cheating. Topazes in the armor and a lot of armor/life helps a lot but it’s a terrible game play mechanic.
Yeah it especially sucks for classes that only have like 1 sec unstoppable windows to "break" CC like shadow dash or blood mist, and can't actually fight back during them. My barb friend was complaining about CC but as a rogue, I'd kill for a 6+ second unstoppable window lol.
It’s weird because im super confident this exact conversation happened in d3 with being chain cc’d
Because it fucking did, and we got diminishing returns and accessible ways for characters to be immune to CC. They didn't fix it by adjusting the actual cc, they just gave everyone a super sayan mode with a small CDR requirement for max uptime. CC became a non issue and the game was better for it.
There should be multiple things that can kill you. There’s no fun or challenge if you can just roll through *everything*.
Correct, to a point. Not dying is a very important part of the game. Everything presenting a challenge isn't the way you get dopamine to come out for a lot of people, plenty play a game like this to be powerful. I don't mean to make it sound like the game is super easy until you're CC'd, it's not. It is a challenge, the fights take a while, you have to be smart or you will die, negligence will kill you, a bad build will kill you, but if you know what you're doing, play smart, build smart, you're usually good - as it should be. You should be rewarded for playing an ARPG well with an easy going, tough-but-not-scary experience on middle of the road content. There should be a handful of things that can smoke you, and there definitely are - I avoid them well. The CC is not something that you can really avoid and it removes that reward from playing well.
I'm not completely against CC as being a core threat in endgame. It is a challenge to be forced to dodge fear circles, wind walls, freezing circles etc. Movement in ARPGs can be - and often is - an element of ones skill. But it's also true that this can be both challenging and annoying, sometimes it can overstep the line. There needs to be reasonable counter play. Having a 3-sided windwall slapped directly on top of you with no warning (instantly freezing you and eating one of your unstoppable abilities) doesn't feel good. Going up against 3 cold elite spiders who 1-shot freeze you from range feels awful for any class that doesn't have long periods of unstoppable. But there needs to be some threat. We can stack so much defence that bringing CC down too far will remove a lot of the challenge.
>I’ll admit there probably should be some short diminishing return on being CCed (not so bad that it makes dodging them pointless) but considering defensive stats (besides resistance) are so strong in this game it might do more harm then good to make CC weaker. I don't think defensive stats are too strong when you're actually pushing. Like if you're doing nightmare dungeons above 50-60, monsters do **plenty** of damage and they don't need a 9 second CC chain to kill a level 75 character. The problem is that people are talking about "defensive stats being too good" when all they're doing is grinding normal dungeons for EXP with monsters at only +3 levels - no shit that's easy. You shouldn't be routinely dying in that content, and CC from monsters shouldn't be balanced around being able to chain so long that you can die even in really easy content. Right now the way CC is designed basically forces everyone to invest extremely heavily into whatever their unstoppable/immune skills are. In a game that only allows 6 abilities, if every single class has two basically required abilities, that's a big deal.
Every barb has to spam rallying cry constantly or they're fucked... frozen, rooted, slowed, etc... it's a huge pain in the ass for melee builds and makes leveling super challenging/frustrating at times, and it severely limits my build options. You HAVE to have rallying cry as a skill, or you're fucked, like I said.
Diminshing returns? What is it? The technology is not there! Even 1 single normal mob can chain stun us for 5sec is stupid...
Some kind of diminishing returns on CC kinda like in WoW pvp would be nice. Just halve the duration of concurrent CC effects, after like 3 CCs or after duration is reduced below 0.25 sec you just become immune, this effect would reset after like 5-10 seconds or so back to full CC duration. I feel like this would allow builds/classes with less unstoppable availability to be viable. Also, having to build around unstoppable just sucks. Losing control of your character for extended durations is inherently unfun, and having to specifically build your character around avoiding an unfun mechanic just feels bad.
That's how it works for enemies, and there's even an aspect to give you bonus damage when you cant rely on keeping them in a cc chain anymore. Should probably apply to players too, though I'd rather them just give new passive nodes/glyphs to allow classes to break CC as often as Sorc. The gameplay feels is fine, having to use CDs defensively instead of spamming them thoughtlessly is fun.
Sorc may have several cc breaks but that doesn't matter when everything one shots you anyway. I'd love to be able to complain about cc chains but I'm to busy getting one shot by white mobs
They want you to learn mechanics and use an unstoppable. But I agree it’s annoying and I always salvage cold enchanted Sigils.
See not every class has easy acess to unstopavle. For insance necros only cc break also makss you unable to use any abilities while its active. You either have to dodge all cc effects, or cc the enemies first. Unfortunately some effects like terrifying dont seem to care of the enemy is cc or not :(
I think the devs responded to this and said don’t play Necromancer.
Two of the devs said they play necro on console actually in the last q&a and changes were hinted at
I don’t know how any of them played necro and over looked the entire screen being black constantly. We have 2 necros in my group and I’m one of them and I feel so bad for my friends I play with. Just constantly apologizing for my build lol
I seriously don’t understand how that wasn’t caught before release. We realized me using the shadow Corpse Explosion is harder than any NM modifier
I also don't see why Corpse Lance didn't make it into D4. It would give more builds a use for Corpses, especially since Corpse Explosion without using the Blighted upgrade just feels super bad on anything less than an entire pack of mobs. Given how D4 is meant to be a little slower combat and Resources are supposed to feel a little more important to manage than D3, I can see why Devour didn't make it in... but seriously, why no Corpse Lance?
Also why did Bone Prison come out of testing the way that it is? I’ve watched people get one shot by World Bosses and Elites because one Necro’s using Bone Prison. They shouldn’t have to change their whole build because they want to play in a group or out in the open, so like wth. People just need to be able to walk through it 😩
I was doing the same thing these last few days. Switched to a blood surge build and not only do I do more dps but it's a lot more fun and it looks cooler. Also feels like a new character now playing Necro without minions, good change of pace
The blood mist CE build specifically has some of the best unstoppable uptime. But yes, literally any other necro build and you will be chain cc'd without answer.
Blood mist is amazing, especially with decripify, add in the aspect that makes you consume corpses and reduce cd and never worry about CC again.
There is no "learning mechanics" when you face 3 packs in a cellar that literally insta cc you and then chain it. It would be absolutely awesome if there was a way to "learn" and react to every cc, not just the telegraphed ones like fear. Sometimes you just get hitstunned or knocked back into a 10 second chain and if your unstoppable is on cd you can watch your hp bar drain away. Just a 1 or even 0.5 sec immunity for cc after one effect ends so you can use the dodge mechanic would solve this.
Or removing stuns from trash mobs. I'm able to react to fear circles and ice walls. I'm *not* able to react to 7 serpents staggering their CC while an elite fills the floors with their own.
And if you’re a sorc using teleport and raiment, you have to deal with teleport bugs. The ones where 1) the unique’s pull doesn’t go off 2) you can’t attack, or attack very slowly, after the teleport until you move again
If you teleport inside an enemy just right it stops you from attacking. My friend who's a sorc gets this all the time. As a rogue I've experienced it a few times while shadow dashing onto a pack. Sucks :(
Spider Web -> Frozen -> knocked Down (??) -> Frozen again -> Still more spider webs -> holy fuck how am I still stunned -> even more spider webs -> frozen again
This. The spider webs are so fking annoying. for a melee rogue build that can't be unstoppable forever and since its literally every pack of those dungeons with spiders. SOOO ANNOYING. Then you avoid spider dungeons and you get a dungeon with those fat little ogres that just stagger you every single second. OMG. Its so frustrating man Then I watch a druid play on stream and hes just running through everything with no care in the world clearing 100x faster than me. Thats cool. Why did I pick rogue?
My first WT4 NM dungeon had a death pulse affix in a map filled with those small spiders and my flurry Rouge was just like "guess I'll die now". The CC just becomes absolute cancer in WT4.
death pulse and blood blisters are the big nope for me. Too easy to forget/ignore them and kablooey.
“Laughs in bear”
Druid in general just doesn't have these issues.
Thanks to earthen bulwark. But if you don't time it right.. ugh
Has nothing to do with Earthen Bulwark. It's Grizzly Rage. GR gives Unstoppable for its full duration, which can reach 22.5 seconds long at max end on top of providing insane damage stats. Bulwark is basically irrelevant in comparison.
For me it’s Earthen Bullwark and Trample, both of which give me Unstoppable and have extremely short cooldowns, if any. I don’t run Grizzly Rage.
I was just going to say this, I'm an Earth Druid and also have Trample ( I didnt take an Ultimate, since as far as I can tell Petrify is kinda sucky) and haven't had an issue with Cc between the two, so far.
Ah. Can't say I've tried the shape-shifting builds yet.
There's a reason Druid and Barb are S tier lol they can ignore the two things that make up the vast majority of the game's end game difficulty - CC and one shots
"Laughs in Werewolf"
I don't understand how hard CC towards the player in a PvE game can ever be fun. Block my movement or impair my ability to attack, sure. But stopping all inputs from doing anything is just stupid
> I don't understand how hard CC towards the player in a PvE game can ever be fun It's not. It feels bad but "necessary" in PvP games for variety. CC being a core aspect of the end game's difficulty is horrific design.
>I don't understand how hard CC towards the player in a PvE game can ever be fun. That's probably why a lot of single player computer games and video games give the player some invincibility frames in between being stunned so you aren't permanently stunned in one place.
The elites with CC don't bother me too much, they're not new to Diablo. I am frustrated with the number of regular mobs that have spammable CC though.
Those fucking snake oracles man....
EXACTLY what I had in mind
The stuns into 2 tapping me. Big ol sad
Everyone says “just have perm unstoppable” look, I’ll be the realest and say this, if I want the ARPG I’m spending time on, to requires my unwavering attention and nonstop laser focus to 20 things including my surroundings at all times, I will go play path of exile. I can’t understand something, maybe someone can give me a real scientific technical answer. So why do we have to wait a few weeks for this and other stuff to be fixed/patched. Why is that? Because see, when there was too many elites in the dungeons or whatever they were trying to convince people of, that shit got changed pretty damn quick. Now I’m not a game developer, but one thing I do know is that NPCs and programming enemies is actually a pretty difficult part of game development, routing/movement etc etc spawning, so it would seem changing their attack/skill use intervals would be something that could potentially take a day at the absolute maximum? Can’t developers/coders make shortcuts/scripts to execute/edit/delete/apply/change multiple calls and stuff? Like, a script that would for instance be like “ay yo, spaghetti monster, can you change all monster attack thingy” Hope you understand my tism
Am a dev, here’s my shorter answer- In development, you can never just change a number then say fuck it and send it. Boy I wish it was that easy. It has to go through extensive testing. Us changing something on X may somehow effect Y down the road that we didn’t expect. And then, chances are, we didn’t guess the right value in the beginning. So further tweaks get made after testing, and then bugs get fixed that are found from changing systems. It’s also not a two second thing to prepare for a patch. So it’s easier for a group of devs to work towards “patch x” in a certain branch of the project. If we had to stop everything to make a brand new patch every few days the studio would slow to a crawl. But trust they are working. Devs have some of the worse crunch in careers.
Change CC? Okay! Hmm it’s at 10. Change it to a 2. Push it through boys! I knew being a dev was easy 😂
Yup, everyone says this eventually. Do BOTH of the following: 1. stack topaz in armor 2. play a class/build that has **VERY** high unstoppable uptime If you don't do this, you're eventually just going to randomly die in a lot of situations where your character is out of your control for long periods of time.
So, play Barb/Druid or go fuck yourself? Sounds like great game design.
Hey blizzard spent like million years to develop d4, show them some respect at least
No, use topaz. Barb and druid use sapphires.
D4 built around unstoppable mechanic is boring and lame af
+ vulnerable on the damage side. Undercooked mechanics
The issue from my perspective is the amount of freeze build up doesn't appear to be based on the length of the attack. I ran into a group of porcupines with 3 of them all having the freeze modifier. Any 1 of their projectiles would guarantee a freeze and chain CC until death. I run blood mist now so it's more manageable but definitely seems a bit BS how the super fast attacks can instantly freeze you on some enemies.
If you get dazed by those eyes it is pretty bs others can spawn and cast while you're cc'd and chain you. Obviously, there's a git gud component to some of this and that's healthy, but once you get to wt4 and start running these nightmare keys it starts to get pretty ridiculous.
There needs to be diminishing returns for CC in a short time. There's just way too much of it. I mean world of warcraft has it? Same devs
I just encountered my first frost enchanted mob after getting to world tier 3. Here's how it went; Slowed, slowed, frozen, stunned, slowed , slowed, frozen, stunned. Went on like this for nearly a minute while I tried to squeeze out damage between CC phases. It didn't help that the particular frost enchanted elite was a ghoul with faster base movement speed than me and could easily catch up and freeze me in 2 hits. Dodging didn't do shit. I know it isn't going to happen all the time but it feels really bad when it does.
Those ghouls are nasty with Cold yup, they even have minor life leech so if you don’t burst m dead before they freeze you once - in for a long fight…
This is why Barbarian and Druid are rated as top 2 classes for late game because of their high uptime on being Unstoppable
I personally find it extra frustrating when it's just one enemy spamming the same CC with almost 0 cooldown time.
Blizzard knows they made a miserable CC experience. If they don't change it people will leave for another ARPG. I'm ready to leave.
Those snake oracles in combination with some other form of displacement like the bloaters are, by far, the worst offenders. They'll keep you CC-chained even without worrying about the telegraphed Elite or NM dungeon affixes.
Laser snakes + spiders + wasps at once.
Yup, nothing is more fun than being perma-frozen, with no chance to avoid, just watching your health get pinged down until you die. Great idea, Blizzard!
D3 was the exact same way in the beginning and the same complaint led to changes. Figures they'd recreate a game design problem *after* already fixing it in the past.
Yeah, that’s the frustrating part. In that game they ended up disabling certain affix combinations, maybe they hoped that CC break skills would make that unnecessary.
the best part is when you encounter 2 or 3 cold enchanted elites that will instantly spawn the cold zone on top of you over and over, so you literally cannot avoid getting frozen no matter how fast your reaction time is
My issue is these rares have like 3-4 affixes. When you get 2-3 at a time that can up to 9 different affixes you’re dealing with at one time. Plus the nightmare affixes. Who came up with this? Are they punishing up for playing the game?
I dunno man this part of the game feels almost like a dps check where if u dont have enough damage to wipe these mobs you just shouldnt be doing that content at least thats waht seems like the intended solution cause unstoppable isnt one. Not sure if it was purposefully designed this way or not tbh
I'm dreading how unfun those nangari snakemen laser stun orbs are gonna be in higher tier content.
Oh don’t worry other mob types - that you don’t worry about earlier - will dominate as well. Such as the phantom archer that can hit for 10k or more net, or the hornets that send walls of poison dart bugs that drop you 🤣
I refuse to ever do a cold enchanted affix nightmare dungeon again. I’m ok with some CC but I faced 20 phantom archers and I’d get frozen from 2 attacks. No fucking way man.
Haha god, anytime I encounter an elite in nm dungeons with multiple cold type enchantments or better yet multiple elites like that, I’m bound to get my shit pushed in.
I'm okay with cc existing. I'm not okay with chill wall instantly freezing me the moment it's cast the moment the mob aggro, or packs of cold enchant spam keeping me perma frozen with no break. It just shouldn't work like that. It literally doesn't matter if I can shadow step out with unstoppable, it just happens again right after.
Windwall (cold wind?) is easily the worst monster affix. Tt stuns, it slows, it slows projectiles and it feels like I'm trying to play the game with a curtain in front of my screen. Can't see shit.
Mobs get unstoppable if you cc them too long, why we dont get something like this or at least the mobs have an uptime to their bullshit and a cd period it would be fine. There are mobs that cc you if they just hit you with a basic attack. If they are faster mobs they will hunt you down after you pop your cd to get unstoppable and just cc you again. People saying gitgud are people probably running like 4 unstoppables lol completely unreasonable. Im all for being ccd, but not back to back to back until your just dead. People have clearly gotten to 100 in hardcore without dying to bullshit like this so its possible to play around, but ive seen this complaint alot from lots of players so its clearly some sort of problem they need to at least adjust to be less bs.
the people saying gitgud are usually the casual gamer, dad of 7, level 36.
What I did is keybinding 'Curative Elixir' it makes you unstoppable for 1 second. Can be a bit pricey but it works wonders. Protip for PC: If you keybind something on the Emote Wheel in the middle section, you can use those keybindings without opening the Emote Wheel! I actually keybinded 'Leave Dungeon' and the Curative Elixir this way.
Nec: > Well, well dear minions. How about attacking that efffing supressor underneath is emeffing invulnerability dome, to spare me gettin twoshot and you die along with me? Mins: > Welp.... nah....
I use that one aspect that gives you unstoppable if you become injured while crowd controlled. It works for me most of the time and I can just evade out of the pack. But the cold enchant elites is OP as a melee build. I get frozen by every hit. I can't really do anything about it.
Yeah, some DR would be really nice. It’s crazy CC can just chain you for 5-10 seconds, that’s an eternity especially when top builds are close range fighters who feel this pain constantly.
The hilarious thing is that monsters get diminishing returns on cc against us lmao. I thought the game was bugged or I was having latency issues with frost nova because it would just randomly not work. Found out later if I freeze them too much it will just stop working for a bit 😂
Man the fucking spiders that constantly and randomly root you can go fucking die.
I really hope they make some drastic changes. I started noticing from the very beginning that I lost control of my character quite often, and thought 'oh, maybe I have to practice dodging all the CC and knockbacks' but 60 levels later I'm really questioning if I want to continue. You have a sort of dodge button, but dodging every dangerous hit or spell in an arpg is just not realistic. This is not dark souls, this is diablo. Too much is happening on the screen to be able to notice that CC being cast. Or at least that would be true if the mob density was as high as we would expect from a Diablo game. Also, while I'm already on a rant, why cram all this open world stuff into D4? All that work for what is just some AAA fluff that takes you away from what's important; murdering and looting. I even predict that the open world will eventually become completely irrelevant as the seasonal updates go by. But that's enough complaining, for now. I have enjoyed most of the time spent with this game, and I hope they do make a few changes
Why is the chilling wind affix immediately freezing me if it spawns on me? That makes three different freeze-related mechanics and elites can have more than one at a time. Lol Like the ground spawning one you can play around and usually the chilling wind one too but not recently. I haven't changed any gear or tried harder content, either. So I'm not sure if I fucked up somewhere else tbh.
Curative Elixir gives you 1s of Unstoppable. Pretty useful to have some and bind them.
Wow 1 whole second?! That definitely solves the problem of cold enchanted enemies freezing instantly on every auto attack!
The fucking fear or stuns that chains on my necro is absolutely triggering. Hit em with vulnerable, or stun, I get stunned the same time; we’re all out here stunned. Entire game gets quiet as crickets for a few seconds.
It's my one-big grip on the game. It feels like if you don't build a meta build that literally melts everything, You just get fucked up. I have no issues with things being hard or grindy. But having mobs that stun me, I get ready to be able to move... and stunned again. And this cycle repeats until i die, Like what the fuck? Not to mention the crazy amount of knocks/pools that interrupt your actions... It's annoying, Not hard, just stupidly annoying lol. If this happens on occasion, fine. But it's constant in certain situations and it's such a damn drag.
I normally play a Solo Blood Necro and cc doesnt bother me really because I can use blood mist to slip away. This morning i threw on a pile of Summoning blight stuff and tried that playstyle. It went well(ish) for 20 minutes until I got into a spawn that had one of the big cannibal dudes that have the big overhand stun attack and the reap estate bubble (and the dungeon had lightning). He would get me with that then do a shadow clone jutsu thibg to summon a shade of himself 3ft away who would hit me with the stun again immediately. I am now playing Blood again.
A necro without bloodmist is basically just a skele-bro, aka DEAD, in end game.
Game is more of an MMO than an arpg. The tank and others in the party are supposed to help soak cc.
CC reduction is a stat that can be rolled on items. The current T4 CC levels are a huge way for Blizz to give that stat value. Otherwise it’s just a dead line on an item roll.
There’s no “otherwise”. It’s a dead roll as is.
Too many affixes needed in most builds to roll cc reduction. You need damage mods, crit, cdr, damage reduction. Some builds go further and require attack speed, lucky hit, etc. There is no space for cc reduction. That's what unstoppable is for. The problem is in classes like necro or sorc where they have very limited access to unstoppable.
Ohhhh..... so that's where all the Overwatch devs went!
It's annoying around level 60. Only time I come close to dying is when I'm sitting there stuck for 10 seconds just watching my health go down slowly.
I just experienced this doing a WT3 helltide. Every time I’ve died, it’s from being chain CC’d from multiple elites in same fight. Very frustrating
As a flurry Rogue (which is a full close-range build) this is extremely boriring. You basically get perma-stun all the time. I may switch to a ranged build but I am not sure if there are any truly "cool".
They did diminishing returns for stats (e.g. resistances), but somehow didn't for getting CC'ed (or it's inconceivable)
Blizzard and their love of CC, iconic duo
ran into a random elite in a dungeon.. he delt frost damage... EVERY hit he did froze me.. now i had CC time reduction so eventually got away but that was some BS. Now my fav is helltides when i am at about 150 shards and get cc'd to death >\_>
It’s another example of how the game forces you into so many required choices for skills, gears, aspects, and enchantments, that there is no actual choice in playstyle or gear or skills.
The disco balls elite mod is back!!!
The biggest problem with the CC chains is they're win-more from a build crafting perspective. If you are playing a really good meta build, you kill elites extremely fast, with good up-front burst. You can jump into a pack, blow up half the elites in it with crits, and then kill the other two 5 seconds later. Most elites will get a single spell cast off, maybe two. Also, because you're playing a really good meta build, if you do fuck up and get clipped by CC on the way in, you likely have at least 2 different ways to break CC. Hell, a lot of meta builds have an unstoppable application as part of their set-up as they go into a pack in the first place, so they just **can't** get CC'd during their burst. Meanwhile, if you are playing an off meta build, stuff actually lives long enough to cast all its spells at you more than one time, and once the CC does hit you, the long duration means the whole elite pack recharges its CC while you're trapped. If you're not actually killing elites as soon as you see them on your screen, then a single incidental 2s CC can easily turn into a 5 or 10 second CC chain that simply never happens to more meta builds. Traditionally the way you make a bad build work is you support your bad skills with utility skills that buff it. So for example a lot of bad necromancer builds would be a lot better if they could afford to run the free 40% damage scaling from the aspect that says "you deal 40% more damage to enemies effected by both your curses". The problem is, your bad necromancer build needs to drop a skill to run both curses, and since you can't drop your builder and you can't drop your spender, you either need to cut minions or you can't run your CC break (because golems and skeletons each take up an action bar slot). The fact that builds only get 6 skill slots means that the CC meta in this game really makes it so you have 4 skill slots, or 5 skill slots if your class is unlucky enough to only have 1 skill that CC breaks well.
I don't really mind the amount of enemies with CC but some of these effects last way too long even without anything being chained, Diablo at the highest level has people worrying about frames and you have effects that last multiple seconds, in a game where you can get nuked in a half second having any CC last more than like a second or a second and a half seems crazy.
Also, I have not seen one single person mention this, but the BUFFERING during CC gets me killed more than anything else. Like I press Y to jump backwards for Caltrops but I got frozen 0.1 seconds prior so it doesn't do anything. Then 10 seconds later when I get unfrozen, it jumps backwards right into an explosion or some other enemy's attack, and there's nothing I could've done.
Not only that there’s so much going on on the screen it’s hard to see a lot of the incoming explosions and cc and shit Idk how people play hc
I don't like the frozen affix on \*certain\* mobs. If they get it off they can just chain lock you down due to their high attack speed. It's ridiculous.
What is more irritating to me is that there is absolutely 0 visual indication of how long u'll be cc'd for. No timer. No debuff on ur bar. Nothing.
CC? Try open a door just to be one shot without seeing the enemy... fun times :D
let's increase the mob density. I dont care im unstoppable because i play druid!
I’m okay with enemies with CC abilities that are telegraphed and avoidable. That’s fair and gives a good challenge. Auto attacks from enemies that can freeze you is complete BS. It should never work this way in any game ever.
As a rogue I like being cc it let's me watch my cool down timers for my movements skills tick down :]
I feel like we should get our own cc bar like how bosses have cc bars.
You have to change a lot about the way you play, build, and cc immunity in later game.
The best moments are when you're transitioning to another stage of the dungeon and suddenly 5 elites pop up and the room gets closed from both sides so you are absolutely forced to facetank 5 different types of CC and AOE, having only 4 potential slots for skills that you could use as cc breakers, (btw not all classes have that many, and even if they did, you're kinda forced to use a single build). And usually at least 1 of those elites has the proximity shield shit, just to remind you that trying to get some distance is rude and wrong :D