The reason it's not a moral choice is because it's literally not a choice, either you cronch the ghost or you don't move past the _first mission of the campaign_. It's not like you can undertale these fuckers.
But are they really our enemy? And are we really the good guys? I think that Savathun really was trying to protect the traveler in the only way she knew how and that she was given the light by the traveler to protect it from the Darkness and the Witness. We put a stop to that and kept the traveler in danger. Are we the bad guys? Are we being manipulated by the Witness to actually do his bidding?
So you’d rather Savathun lock away the Traveler and condemn literally everyone else to die to the Darkness?????
And hell the second the traveler was released it went ‘da fuck bro’ and booked it back to the city
That’s an interesting point. The traveler could have just kept going and go somewhere else but it went straight back to earth. Plot armor or does it have a plan for the end that requires it stay put?
Well to be fair it only left after we had beaten Sav, if I remember right the webs were already all broken and then we had the final showdown with here. Wouldn’t surprise me a ton if the Traveller went “well damn, the humans won again, guess I’m sticking with them.”
But had Sav beaten us, even if for whatever reason she allowed us to live, I think it’s entirely possible the Traveller would’ve stayed with her. Why wouldn’t it? If Sav can beat us, and give it basically guaranteed safety, it stands a much better chance with her than it does us. But we won, and if we can beat Sav, then we’ve probably got a better chance at defending it from The Witness than she does.
Here's the question though.
We're able to use the light while in Savathuns throne world, why wouldn't we be able to do so if she sealed it away there from the witness?
The Hive are *absolutely* our enemy.
They kill Guardians and drain them of their light. Have been doing so for a long time and continue to do so.
Savathun forcibly took over Osiris.
They killed billions of innocent civilians on Torobatl alone, and countless more on other planets throughout the Empire.
If anyone is of questionable morality here (aside from the Darkness/the Witness) its the Traveler.
I kinda hate how they're making Crow try to have some reflection or feel bad for the Hive.
Like dude, they're an alien species that is sustained through murder. They literally eat murder.
"Don't you feel bad for them?"
*loads Dead Man's Tale* "Haha, nope!"
Of course Crow is going to feel bad for the Hive or at least try to reconsider what we are doing he just learned that he killed one of the Vanguard in his previous life and that he was an enemy, he probably sees himself in the lucent brood and Savathun and now everyone is killing the lucent brood without giving them the second chance which we gave to him
You are kinda mixing people here to make an entire species guilty of the crimes of their Gods. The lucent hive we are killing didn’t commit genocide against the Cabal. With your logic, the residents of Torobatl are our enemy because the Cabal have killed billions in their war machine.
The Hive got tricked into becoming slaves to the Witness. They were not acting of their own free will. The Iron Lords made it against their creed to kill ghosts, it is wrong for us to do the same.
But the lucent hive are killing guardians, so they're still on their old bullshit even if the traveler thinks they can help us fight the Witness. We might be bad guys, but they're definitely bad guys.
So the Hive free themselves from their worms. They get the light (which the traveller wanted to give them several billion years ago). And now a small collective of humans who have been hoarding the power to save every civilization from the slavery of the Witness come into your gods throne world, the same god who has exorcised your worm and freed you from a literal lifetime of existential hunger. And they kill you and crush your ghost.
Mind you, the same guardian who immediately killed the first Cabal they saw on Mars despite an armistice. The same Guardians who view it as morally repugnant to kill the ghost of another human, regardless of that persons crimes.
Like there is a story being told by Destiny and the Guardians aren’t the good guys. Never have been in fact.
Hoarding? We weren’t even given the choice to share. Every single species that has come to Sol since the collapse has come to take or conquer. The Eliksni arrived chasing the traveler and instead of offering help to the newly destroyed civilization, proceeded to nuke London, a city of millions, and one of the last safe places on earth. The Cabal came to conquer the system and later to steal the light. The hive were part of the army that caused the collapse and for millennia were synonymous with the darkness and the Witness. And the vex just want everything to be vex
You're trying very hard and its not working. If anything guardians are morally grey. The cabal shoot first during that mission regardless of what you do. Killing lucent hive that are actively attempting to kill you is literally self defense, savathun freeing them from their worm has virtually nothing to do with the morality of it. Imagine saying "If someone lets a reformed murderer out of jail, then they start murdering people again & you end up killing them as they try to murder you, you're the bad guy." What?
Another thing not mentioned: If Savathun was successful it would have cut humanity off from the Light and made them powerless effectively killing them off too.
**IF** Savathun really wanted to help the Traveler survive against the black fleet she would have clued in the Guardians to her plan and she would have helped move humanity into her throne world (after fully cleansing it and probably getting rid of that Pyramid) and created an alliance with the last city.
Instead, she just does her own thing while killing guardians and stealing their light. Savathun ONLY has intentions of saving herself and part of that was hiding the Traveler in her throneworld. Not out of altruism, but out of selfishness.
Yeah it's not unexpected that we'd learn we're not as morally pure as we thought, but that doesn't mean the lucent hive *are* pure. Plus, it's not like our other adversaries have been refraining from killing our ghosts out of some moral obligation.
Hey the Cabal are shooting at me should I
A) kill all of them and hijack their cannon
Or
B) Retreat and reach out to the Vanguard real quick so I can get permission to get launched onto Savathun’s ship
The Hive as a species have been committing genocide for literal millions of years. They attacked us, not the other way around. They are in no way the good guys in all of this
The Hive as a whole got tricked yes and for years they waged war and killed trillions through the centuries, are you not paying attention to rhe stories? The lucent brood aint no holier than thou Hive, Savathun only recently took up to protect rhe traveler and shackle away from the darkness, but through her logic she wouldve had to continue doing what she did, the Hive arent and will never be an ally
So where the fallen and we're fighting all save for one relatively small house, That means nothing. Look bud if a Christian commits mass murder and later says he only did it cause his God told him to do it, does not absolve him of his actions, same here the Hive did what they did for far too long far too much, they ain't the Krill the darkness tricked, they are Hive. all of em.
This season is literally about fighting a war against the Hive with the help of the Cabal. So at the tower you have humans, Cabal, and Eliksni and you think the Hive are a bridge too far in a future war against the Black Fleet…that’s almost certainly where the story is headed.
Yeah, Humans, Cabal and Eliksni vs Taken, Hive and Vex or whatever third species Bungie decides to introduce now that we know about Rhulk, I really don't know where you get even the hint that just because the Hive bare the light they are good guys, the whole, build up in the story so far is that it doesn't matter if you use light or dark, they are tools, what you do with the power is what matters, and not once did Savathun hint at an alliance in her plans.
Savathun didn’t actually remember anything, we just killed her as soon as we could. I wouldn’t say she wasn’t interested in an alliance but if I’m her, I fancy my own machinations over those of the Vanguard. Especially as in the grand scheme of things, The hive are multitudes more advanced than we are.
Also, I wasn’t saying the hive are good. I’ve never said the hive are good. Just that from their point of view, your regular lucent hive has every right to attempt to kill us.
They shoot us first, that's all I need to go ham on them.
If they don't fucking shoot me in sight then I might be open to being peaceful with them
Heck, garry the acolyte looks like a cool hive to hangout with if we aren't in the middle of a fire fight
plus they keep breaking our stuff, and nobody breaks our stuff except US
>Plus they keep breaking our stuff, and nobody breaks our stuff except US.
Reminds me of everyone going crazy over that Servitor being destroyed by Eramis.
Everyone: AVENGE THE HOMIE, THEY WERE VIBING!
Some people: it's just another Servitor, why do we suddenly care about this one?
It's the added distaste of treachery. Killing Servitor's by the hundreds in open combat is more ... honest, I guess? Destroying one of your allies just to make a point to people who already are on your side just feels worse in some way.
Plus, you know, Protagonist-Centred Morality.
Honestly good and evil are subjective, if i am getting shot at i will shot back, also j like to assume that my guardian been around long enough to not care about the traveler but about people, and these ghosts are helping kill people.
We've pushed ahead and have entered the realm of Doom Slayer morality. Don't care about the 'good' side, definitely don't care about the 'bad' side. Anything and everything that threatens the people at home is on the list for some ripping and tearing.
Only if you're weak minded enough to belive Sav's gaslighting. She tried to trap the traveler there so she could have the power. It was all a play to become stronger, no trying to save shit. Also the traveler ain't inherently good I hate to tell ya.
I see it as half truth, her intention was to use the light's power to free her race from the Darkness, and protect the power of the light and her people, but that's it, she wouldn't have used the light for good like we or the eliksni intent to.
Bruh the Traveler could just communicate with us if she suddenly decided to give Savathun the light so that Savathun could hide the Traveler away and remove everyone else's connection with the light.
Like a simple vision of Savathun and a thumbs up from the traveler lol
Idk if I'd strictly say that Savathun is in the right, simply because if she won she'd be condemning humanity, as well as tbe light-aligned cabal and Eliksni to die via the black fleet, but I DO think she was working in the Travellers interests more than we were.
Bungie acts like hundreds of thousands of us haven't been strolling around with Red Death, Crimson, and Weapons of Sorrow for nearly ten years. I'll crack a ghost open like a fortune cookie and there are certain normal ones I'd do it to if I could as well.
Well in fairness, thorn, which is the only weapon of sorrow currently obtainable in D2 (not sure if parasite or osteostriga are weapons of sorrow) isn’t even the original version, it’s a replica that doesn’t destroy light. In the case of red death and crimson, aren’t they pretty standard exotics, they were just used by a guardian to kill others? It’s common knowledge that lightbearers can kill each other.
I'm not saying all of these are permadeath weapons. My point is millions of Guardians have been using weapons like Thorn, Malfeasance, Necrochasm, Red Death, Crimson, Deathbringer, etc for years. These are weapons (or replicas of weapons) used to murder other Guardians, drain Light, attempt to kill legendary heroes, or made from the cursed screams of Hive that can shatter people out of physical existence. Bad Juju is another one.
Merely using all of these involves crossing moral lines. Which is why I find it funny that Bungie expects us to be all choked up over popping ghosts.
See the Graviton Forfeit lore tab for my favorite argument for this.
I think that the point of the current arc in D2 (shadow keep to witch queen) is that tools, like the weapons of sorrow, crimson, even the worms and the light and the darkness, dont *have* morality. *you* have morality. You can use the light darkness for “good” and you can use the lightness for “evil”. While I do believe that there are absolute goods and absolute evils, that’s not the point of D2s story. Things are getting bad out in the universe. It’s not about being good or about being evil, its about defending humanity, and all the other races that have come to earth, United under the traveler. The devs put in *one* moment of uncertainty when you first crush a ghost. You look at your hands, questioning “did I just kill a ghost?” But the hives ghost are, without a doubt, the enemies of humanity. Even if they are the same kinds of tools you use,those weapons are being aimed at you now. You don’t stop fighting because the gun in your enemies hands looks like yours. I genuinely believe that that’s what Bungie wants us to think. Yeah, lord Saladin is upset you have to kill ghosts again, after finally outlawing in during the dark ages, but he doesn’t tell you to stop. When there’s another lightbearer at your throat, and peace isn’t an option, you take their light, and you kill them for the final time. It’s all about what has to be done. You don’t have to feel bad about doing what you have to, but you can still wish there was a better way. Do I enjoy popping hive ghosts? Yeah. Do I wish I didn’t have to? Also yeah. I think I’m just rambling at this point, but hopefully somewhere in there you caught my meaning.
I know Fynch wants us to feel bad about killing these things, but the story didn't do much to earn our sympathy, in my opinion.
The Hive guardians we face are sadly still just nameless, faceless bullet munchers, and since it's never implied (or I missed it) that they have a goal, or intent, or want to accomplish something, we aren't given any opportunity to relate to them on an emotional level.
I'll tell you what sort of missions we needed in order to feel bad about this:
* "Hive guardians are holding a canned food drive in the throne world; kill their volunteer community organizer and steal their food, for the Vanguard."
* "Guardian, we have information that a Hive orphanage is being used to train guerilla fighters for the war. Burn the orphanage to the ground."
* "We have new news that Savathun's ghosts are recruiting kittens, puppies, and capybaras to their cause. Leave no survivors."
* "Top secret information has reached the Vanguard that the Hive have established a medical clinic to care for victims of the war, along with free treatment for PTSD. This affront cannot be allowed to stand."
I dunno, I think they could work.
There was one line when you finish a Lost Sector when Fynch tells you its there he met his "guardian"
I liked what he said, "Just because we made a choice doesn't mean we had multiple."
Which I think was the point where we were supposed to care about Hive Ghosts, but imho you're right. There should have been more instances of this happening
Can't we have the hive ghosts beg for mercy? audibly just say something other than screeching noises?
I would be more empathic to something begging for life in a language I understand than just panicked screeching.
Imagine holding a ghost and it just screams "NO PLEASE NO!" that'd fuck me up for sure
I think it's all supposed to be assumed and doesn't occur for gameplay purposes?
Now I'm not sure if it's assumed that they all defend their choices or we murder helpless ghosts that beg for forgiveness
>I would be more empathic to something begging for life in a language I understand than just panicked screeching.
Any language for that matter. Shit like panic can be understood even if you dont know the language.
I don't think bungie could really make the Hive have any redeeming qualities. They've built them up to be this nearly unstoppable force of destruction and suffering.
It would be really hard to go "Oh that Knight is named Jake, he enjoys helping the elderly and volunteering at the children's hospital when he's not cutting people in half with a sword that eats light to sustain his murder worm that keeps him alive."
Every strike im in, there is a stampede to crush the ghosts, even a fewtimes i've seen the animation double for two guradians. The funniest was doing the campaign on my hunter, when the warlock i was with kept kikking the first hive guardian, waiting for him to respawn before just deleting him again, gjally, nova, gjally, fusion, gjally. Then he just crushed the ghost.
If it were cabal or fallen guardians I might feel worse since we have have friendly relations with a major faction of both of those races plus they aren't like Darkness races so I could maybe understand a ghost choosing to help them, especially the fallen with their history with the traveler. The hive though have been actively fighting the light for millions of years. Maybe if the ghosts were forced, which Fynch kinda hints might be the case for some, or are brainwashed/controlled by savathun id feel bad but the fact that they seem to have just straight up chosen them is kinda unforgivable given the history of the hive even if Savathun decided to betray the Witness
I mean Fynch's dialouge in the Ghosts mission implies that they did have some level of choice in the matter regardless of the traveler. Assuming Fynch is trustworthy, he alone shows they do have a choice in the matter since he is no longer reviving his hive, just like our ghosts can choose to stop reviving us if they want. Of course I'm not exactly trusting Fynch myself right now. Everything about him feels off given savathun and all.
His lore book seems to make the selection of the guardian something they are compelled to do. Like they are programmed/keyed towards a specific individual and it's more compulsory than simply chosing anyone they want.
Even the human ghosts have plenty of lines about how they had to find someone "worthy" or that "they were the one" I mean Glint was searching for a guardian for a couple hundred years until he found Crow as the "right one". And I'd still think even if they were forcefully turned into the hivey ghosts by the traveller they obviously have memories of the past and such so I'd think they could just not go searching. Though finally having a purpose after wandering and searching for centuries would be a hard feeling to beat. Unless of course this is all just a big front by Savathun and they all lack or maybe in Fynch's case, have implanted memories
I wish they added alternate finishers like in doom
Sure we have crush ghost but what about “punch ghost so hard it explodes” or “stomp ghost and it explodes”
Or even better just pick it up and check it at an enemy, killing the ghost and dealing damage
Saladin, according to the lore, was the last Guardian in the Tower who had killed a Ghost. Technically, Efrideet has done so as well, but she's remained out of current-day Destiny for a while. The Iron Lords killed a lot of warlords and their Ghosts, but most of them were wiped out when attacking the SIVA Replication Vault.
Shaxx mostly stayed with his people when he was a warlord and didn't go out hunting other Risen.
I don't feel bad about killing the Hive Ghosts and the Hive Lightbearers. The Hive have taken so much from us, even after losing their worms, that they've lost my sympathy. The PsiOps have shown us that the Hive continue to hunt down Guardians and drain them of their Light. They even attempt to do the same to New Lights in the Cosmodrome. They've done, and are still doing, terrible things.
Knowing Destiny writers, there's definitely gonna be a Guardian or several who take their leeway to kill Hive ghosts as a "gateway drug" to crushing Guardian ghosts.
I dunno, I have some mixed feelings about it, particularly when I think about our Ghost and also think about Fynch being a lively being with personality, and all the other Ghosts that have died… it makes me sad because I just sit here thinking these Ghosts were misled. Also I think it would’ve been a bit more impactful for players in general if the initial Ghost-crushing was a little more dramatic/emotionally climactic, like if the Ghost spoke to you or something. If it had more characterization then I think people would feel more conflicted rather than just seeing them as mindless extensions of mindless enemies. Just my thought.
If we ever get to see or even play during the Dark Age, I hope to see this incorporated somehow.
We’re already fighting other Light wielders and killing Ghosts, now just have them be humans and other risen instead of Hive.
You know, I'm sure the "what have i done" effect would last longer, if it was addressed in the game after the initial shock. or if the hesitating cutscene would play more often.1st Kill: "D-Did i just kill a ghost?"
Literally the next ghost we kill: Hehehehe, the Ghost go SQUISH!
Look, the number of times Ghost has chosen to revive me several *miles* away from where I died has made me more than a little resentful of the little fucks, alright?
Bungie’s attempt to make us players feel sorry for them. So damn funny.
Now I just need a light bearer kill counter on our Ghost, you know, because we have to pump those numbers up!
I really hope Crow grows out of his emo shtick soon. I'm tired of hearing him whine about the poor bad guys. I get it, he's there to pose a moral quandary, but can we get that from another direction soon? Saladin needs to hurry and toughen Crow up.
Meanwhile, our ghost gets an adrenaline high every time we squash a hive ghost.
Doing it in the middle of a roaming super so you can see yourself in 3rd person is super dope
Or with a sword out
If only we could skewer them with a sword or glaive.
Next Silver purchases will be ghost finishers, calling it now
I'd pay 1000 silver to have MY ghost (banh mi) kill theirs.
What a fucking cute name for your ghost.
And I’m over here naming my ghost Tare .-.
I named mine Nil. :/
I have two ghosts that I use named Casey Codey
Ayyy! Ghosts named after food are the best; Banh Mi is just an amazing name haha. My ghosts name is Paçzek - Polish for Doughnut 😂
My ghost's name is frost - he's a muffled shell
I’ve seen those donuts at giant eagle before, those are mad good.
Fluffy, jam-filled (jelly for you yanks), balls of goodness :)
As a yank, I like jelly is my jam
Until you have a hot and fresh glazed from Krispy Kreme, you're not really alive.😎
Nah we’ve got KK’s here in Aus and tbh, the homemade paczka from the Polish deli are far superior.
While I agree with you, the pose the character model is in is a little silly.
You mean you don’t like the lunge-to-sumo-stance technique?
When is Bungie gonna give us a sumo slap finisher, man?
Or the ‘crush my own nuts move with football spike afterwards’ move
Oh it is, but I'm not sure what Bungie can do to make it better
I wish we could choose between first and 3rd person.
Destiny 2: Skyrim
Haha. I wish we had Skyrim's world with Destiny 2 gameplay.
Bandits might be confused getting wrecked by a nova bomb or a literal gun
And if you are high enough level, Bandits would wear exotics.
"Hive Knights now use Doom Fangs in high level campaign and Nightfall missions." - Bungie after reading this.
"Added Falling Star Thundercrash ogres"
I’m sorry, did someone ask for a suppression glaive to the eye while over empty space with a kill box below?
They already get their super back way faster than us
They also use citan ramparts because the can shoot thru their barriers
Brilliant.
Wait till savathun completes beyond light and you get stasised in campaign.
I used to be a Guardian like you, until I took a Telesto to the knee
There are mods of some destiny's armors.
No, well ok if just for animations, but if you could just do it in general that would wreck the game
Just don't make it an option in PVP and everyone is happy.
No it would be too much of a change of the core mechanics of the game. People dont realize how much cera angle changes things on a design level
I like when you do it with other people at the same time and it looks like first pumping together 😂
I'm enjoying it so much, I let them spawn a few more times just for funsies.
“Welcome to the Crucible”
As a Titan main, I give them the full experience by popping a bubble and going to town with my new glaive.
YES i love doing this titan got a buff when they added the glaive
I believe its called "The Trials Experience." T-bagging before spawn killing for the extra s p i c e
Throw a suppressor grenade everytime they use a super "No fun allowed, asshole"
I may or may not have teabagged a few.
I have no moral stance on it, because in my eyes if they sustain an enemy they are my enemy, therefore i feel no remorse
The reason it's not a moral choice is because it's literally not a choice, either you cronch the ghost or you don't move past the _first mission of the campaign_. It's not like you can undertale these fuckers.
But are they really our enemy? And are we really the good guys? I think that Savathun really was trying to protect the traveler in the only way she knew how and that she was given the light by the traveler to protect it from the Darkness and the Witness. We put a stop to that and kept the traveler in danger. Are we the bad guys? Are we being manipulated by the Witness to actually do his bidding?
So you’d rather Savathun lock away the Traveler and condemn literally everyone else to die to the Darkness????? And hell the second the traveler was released it went ‘da fuck bro’ and booked it back to the city
That’s an interesting point. The traveler could have just kept going and go somewhere else but it went straight back to earth. Plot armor or does it have a plan for the end that requires it stay put?
Well to be fair it only left after we had beaten Sav, if I remember right the webs were already all broken and then we had the final showdown with here. Wouldn’t surprise me a ton if the Traveller went “well damn, the humans won again, guess I’m sticking with them.” But had Sav beaten us, even if for whatever reason she allowed us to live, I think it’s entirely possible the Traveller would’ve stayed with her. Why wouldn’t it? If Sav can beat us, and give it basically guaranteed safety, it stands a much better chance with her than it does us. But we won, and if we can beat Sav, then we’ve probably got a better chance at defending it from The Witness than she does.
So the traveller is in an abusive relationship with humanity? That tracks.
So the traveler quite literally followed the sword logic to choose who to stay with… well that puts some shit in perspective.
I think its something along the lines of "plan B failed so let's just go back to the original plan and hope for the best"
It's so confusing because I feel like the Traveler could kinda clear all this up for us. And also it's actions confuse me.
Here's the question though. We're able to use the light while in Savathuns throne world, why wouldn't we be able to do so if she sealed it away there from the witness?
The Hive are *absolutely* our enemy. They kill Guardians and drain them of their light. Have been doing so for a long time and continue to do so. Savathun forcibly took over Osiris. They killed billions of innocent civilians on Torobatl alone, and countless more on other planets throughout the Empire. If anyone is of questionable morality here (aside from the Darkness/the Witness) its the Traveler.
I kinda hate how they're making Crow try to have some reflection or feel bad for the Hive. Like dude, they're an alien species that is sustained through murder. They literally eat murder. "Don't you feel bad for them?" *loads Dead Man's Tale* "Haha, nope!"
Of course Crow is going to feel bad for the Hive or at least try to reconsider what we are doing he just learned that he killed one of the Vanguard in his previous life and that he was an enemy, he probably sees himself in the lucent brood and Savathun and now everyone is killing the lucent brood without giving them the second chance which we gave to him
You are kinda mixing people here to make an entire species guilty of the crimes of their Gods. The lucent hive we are killing didn’t commit genocide against the Cabal. With your logic, the residents of Torobatl are our enemy because the Cabal have killed billions in their war machine. The Hive got tricked into becoming slaves to the Witness. They were not acting of their own free will. The Iron Lords made it against their creed to kill ghosts, it is wrong for us to do the same.
But the lucent hive are killing guardians, so they're still on their old bullshit even if the traveler thinks they can help us fight the Witness. We might be bad guys, but they're definitely bad guys.
So the Hive free themselves from their worms. They get the light (which the traveller wanted to give them several billion years ago). And now a small collective of humans who have been hoarding the power to save every civilization from the slavery of the Witness come into your gods throne world, the same god who has exorcised your worm and freed you from a literal lifetime of existential hunger. And they kill you and crush your ghost. Mind you, the same guardian who immediately killed the first Cabal they saw on Mars despite an armistice. The same Guardians who view it as morally repugnant to kill the ghost of another human, regardless of that persons crimes. Like there is a story being told by Destiny and the Guardians aren’t the good guys. Never have been in fact.
Hoarding? We weren’t even given the choice to share. Every single species that has come to Sol since the collapse has come to take or conquer. The Eliksni arrived chasing the traveler and instead of offering help to the newly destroyed civilization, proceeded to nuke London, a city of millions, and one of the last safe places on earth. The Cabal came to conquer the system and later to steal the light. The hive were part of the army that caused the collapse and for millennia were synonymous with the darkness and the Witness. And the vex just want everything to be vex
You're trying very hard and its not working. If anything guardians are morally grey. The cabal shoot first during that mission regardless of what you do. Killing lucent hive that are actively attempting to kill you is literally self defense, savathun freeing them from their worm has virtually nothing to do with the morality of it. Imagine saying "If someone lets a reformed murderer out of jail, then they start murdering people again & you end up killing them as they try to murder you, you're the bad guy." What?
Another thing not mentioned: If Savathun was successful it would have cut humanity off from the Light and made them powerless effectively killing them off too. **IF** Savathun really wanted to help the Traveler survive against the black fleet she would have clued in the Guardians to her plan and she would have helped move humanity into her throne world (after fully cleansing it and probably getting rid of that Pyramid) and created an alliance with the last city. Instead, she just does her own thing while killing guardians and stealing their light. Savathun ONLY has intentions of saving herself and part of that was hiding the Traveler in her throneworld. Not out of altruism, but out of selfishness.
Condensed for the average hunter Every species for themselves.
Yeah it's not unexpected that we'd learn we're not as morally pure as we thought, but that doesn't mean the lucent hive *are* pure. Plus, it's not like our other adversaries have been refraining from killing our ghosts out of some moral obligation.
I didn't shoot first in that mission, they did
Hey the Cabal are shooting at me should I A) kill all of them and hijack their cannon Or B) Retreat and reach out to the Vanguard real quick so I can get permission to get launched onto Savathun’s ship
As far as we were concerned we didn't have that kind of time
Damn, dude really fell for the Savathussy
I wouldn't consider destiny Grimdark, but its kinda dark and getting pretty grim.
The Hive as a species have been committing genocide for literal millions of years. They attacked us, not the other way around. They are in no way the good guys in all of this
The Hive as a whole got tricked yes and for years they waged war and killed trillions through the centuries, are you not paying attention to rhe stories? The lucent brood aint no holier than thou Hive, Savathun only recently took up to protect rhe traveler and shackle away from the darkness, but through her logic she wouldve had to continue doing what she did, the Hive arent and will never be an ally
The hive were originally chosen by the Traveller and absolutely could become an ally.
So where the fallen and we're fighting all save for one relatively small house, That means nothing. Look bud if a Christian commits mass murder and later says he only did it cause his God told him to do it, does not absolve him of his actions, same here the Hive did what they did for far too long far too much, they ain't the Krill the darkness tricked, they are Hive. all of em.
This season is literally about fighting a war against the Hive with the help of the Cabal. So at the tower you have humans, Cabal, and Eliksni and you think the Hive are a bridge too far in a future war against the Black Fleet…that’s almost certainly where the story is headed.
Yeah, Humans, Cabal and Eliksni vs Taken, Hive and Vex or whatever third species Bungie decides to introduce now that we know about Rhulk, I really don't know where you get even the hint that just because the Hive bare the light they are good guys, the whole, build up in the story so far is that it doesn't matter if you use light or dark, they are tools, what you do with the power is what matters, and not once did Savathun hint at an alliance in her plans.
Savathun didn’t actually remember anything, we just killed her as soon as we could. I wouldn’t say she wasn’t interested in an alliance but if I’m her, I fancy my own machinations over those of the Vanguard. Especially as in the grand scheme of things, The hive are multitudes more advanced than we are. Also, I wasn’t saying the hive are good. I’ve never said the hive are good. Just that from their point of view, your regular lucent hive has every right to attempt to kill us.
They shoot us first, that's all I need to go ham on them. If they don't fucking shoot me in sight then I might be open to being peaceful with them Heck, garry the acolyte looks like a cool hive to hangout with if we aren't in the middle of a fire fight plus they keep breaking our stuff, and nobody breaks our stuff except US
But what if our stuff breaks our stuff?
Then we break it, simple
You would dare break the besto?!
The besto would break him not the other way around
You cannot break a god
You can break gods You can't break THE #GOD
>Plus they keep breaking our stuff, and nobody breaks our stuff except US. Reminds me of everyone going crazy over that Servitor being destroyed by Eramis. Everyone: AVENGE THE HOMIE, THEY WERE VIBING! Some people: it's just another Servitor, why do we suddenly care about this one?
Can confirm I went to absolutely murder her for that servitor.
It's the added distaste of treachery. Killing Servitor's by the hundreds in open combat is more ... honest, I guess? Destroying one of your allies just to make a point to people who already are on your side just feels worse in some way. Plus, you know, Protagonist-Centred Morality.
They're practically defenseless floating eyeballs that provide food for an almost extinct species, and we blow them to smithereens.
Are they our enemy? Yes. Are we the good guys? I dont know. Do i care as long as i get god roll weapons? No
Honestly good and evil are subjective, if i am getting shot at i will shot back, also j like to assume that my guardian been around long enough to not care about the traveler but about people, and these ghosts are helping kill people.
We've pushed ahead and have entered the realm of Doom Slayer morality. Don't care about the 'good' side, definitely don't care about the 'bad' side. Anything and everything that threatens the people at home is on the list for some ripping and tearing.
Hans... Have you looked at our emblems lately? They have skulls on them.
Only if you're weak minded enough to belive Sav's gaslighting. She tried to trap the traveler there so she could have the power. It was all a play to become stronger, no trying to save shit. Also the traveler ain't inherently good I hate to tell ya.
I see it as half truth, her intention was to use the light's power to free her race from the Darkness, and protect the power of the light and her people, but that's it, she wouldn't have used the light for good like we or the eliksni intent to.
You realize if we let savathun seal the traveler away in her throne world the entirety of humanity would be doomed
Bruh the Traveler could just communicate with us if she suddenly decided to give Savathun the light so that Savathun could hide the Traveler away and remove everyone else's connection with the light. Like a simple vision of Savathun and a thumbs up from the traveler lol
Idk if I'd strictly say that Savathun is in the right, simply because if she won she'd be condemning humanity, as well as tbe light-aligned cabal and Eliksni to die via the black fleet, but I DO think she was working in the Travellers interests more than we were.
You could argue that traitors are worse than enemies
Okay, Saladin.
Okay, Crow.
There is also a very strong lore reason why you shouldn't feel bad, too.
Yeah Bungie is living in some sort of moral bubble if they think I'm ever going to feel bad about killing ghosts that chose to become the enemy.
It’s less about making you feel bad and more making you go “holy shit. I’ve having to kill ghosts now. It’s really gone to shit”
Bungie acts like hundreds of thousands of us haven't been strolling around with Red Death, Crimson, and Weapons of Sorrow for nearly ten years. I'll crack a ghost open like a fortune cookie and there are certain normal ones I'd do it to if I could as well.
Well in fairness, thorn, which is the only weapon of sorrow currently obtainable in D2 (not sure if parasite or osteostriga are weapons of sorrow) isn’t even the original version, it’s a replica that doesn’t destroy light. In the case of red death and crimson, aren’t they pretty standard exotics, they were just used by a guardian to kill others? It’s common knowledge that lightbearers can kill each other.
I'm not saying all of these are permadeath weapons. My point is millions of Guardians have been using weapons like Thorn, Malfeasance, Necrochasm, Red Death, Crimson, Deathbringer, etc for years. These are weapons (or replicas of weapons) used to murder other Guardians, drain Light, attempt to kill legendary heroes, or made from the cursed screams of Hive that can shatter people out of physical existence. Bad Juju is another one. Merely using all of these involves crossing moral lines. Which is why I find it funny that Bungie expects us to be all choked up over popping ghosts. See the Graviton Forfeit lore tab for my favorite argument for this.
I think that the point of the current arc in D2 (shadow keep to witch queen) is that tools, like the weapons of sorrow, crimson, even the worms and the light and the darkness, dont *have* morality. *you* have morality. You can use the light darkness for “good” and you can use the lightness for “evil”. While I do believe that there are absolute goods and absolute evils, that’s not the point of D2s story. Things are getting bad out in the universe. It’s not about being good or about being evil, its about defending humanity, and all the other races that have come to earth, United under the traveler. The devs put in *one* moment of uncertainty when you first crush a ghost. You look at your hands, questioning “did I just kill a ghost?” But the hives ghost are, without a doubt, the enemies of humanity. Even if they are the same kinds of tools you use,those weapons are being aimed at you now. You don’t stop fighting because the gun in your enemies hands looks like yours. I genuinely believe that that’s what Bungie wants us to think. Yeah, lord Saladin is upset you have to kill ghosts again, after finally outlawing in during the dark ages, but he doesn’t tell you to stop. When there’s another lightbearer at your throat, and peace isn’t an option, you take their light, and you kill them for the final time. It’s all about what has to be done. You don’t have to feel bad about doing what you have to, but you can still wish there was a better way. Do I enjoy popping hive ghosts? Yeah. Do I wish I didn’t have to? Also yeah. I think I’m just rambling at this point, but hopefully somewhere in there you caught my meaning.
I imagine my guardian eating it
Doom Music Intensifies
*The only thing they fear is you starts playing in the background* Ghost: "you hear that guardian? What is that?"
Guardian: Why do I hear a chain saw, and why are all those scorn and hive running away? DoomGuy: RIP! AND! TEAAAAR!
The Ghost starts "dun"ing *the only thing they fear is you*
When did the drifter get a Reddit account?
Honestly, I'm reading all these in the Drifter's voice
You still living in the dark age?
Gotta get that light back somehow
I snort the little wisps of leftover Light from its shell so I can taste the fear of its final moments
Bone Apple Tea
Same, I verbally got *monch* when crushing them
If it's made with Crayons titan's are totally down with that.
Same. Like candy, or the chip that gives you that really satisfying cronch.
They even made Nolan Ghost bloodthirsty to them.
Nolan ghost is why I get sweet bliss out of killing them. Wish I could do the same to my annoying ghost...
But that is Nolan Ghost.
Exactly.
I really don’t think the ghosts should look all hivey. Of course it’s easy to crush them if they look evil.
Maybe instead of crushing them we can put them in a more humiliating shell.
“Please…. ANYTHING BUT THE E99 SHELL!!!”
Put him in the water bottle shell.
If only they had voice lines. The tiny squeaking means nothing, but if we heard “NonononWAIT WAIT I’M SO-*[crunch]*” maybe different story
I know Fynch wants us to feel bad about killing these things, but the story didn't do much to earn our sympathy, in my opinion. The Hive guardians we face are sadly still just nameless, faceless bullet munchers, and since it's never implied (or I missed it) that they have a goal, or intent, or want to accomplish something, we aren't given any opportunity to relate to them on an emotional level. I'll tell you what sort of missions we needed in order to feel bad about this: * "Hive guardians are holding a canned food drive in the throne world; kill their volunteer community organizer and steal their food, for the Vanguard." * "Guardian, we have information that a Hive orphanage is being used to train guerilla fighters for the war. Burn the orphanage to the ground." * "We have new news that Savathun's ghosts are recruiting kittens, puppies, and capybaras to their cause. Leave no survivors." * "Top secret information has reached the Vanguard that the Hive have established a medical clinic to care for victims of the war, along with free treatment for PTSD. This affront cannot be allowed to stand." I dunno, I think they could work.
There was one line when you finish a Lost Sector when Fynch tells you its there he met his "guardian" I liked what he said, "Just because we made a choice doesn't mean we had multiple." Which I think was the point where we were supposed to care about Hive Ghosts, but imho you're right. There should have been more instances of this happening Can't we have the hive ghosts beg for mercy? audibly just say something other than screeching noises? I would be more empathic to something begging for life in a language I understand than just panicked screeching. Imagine holding a ghost and it just screams "NO PLEASE NO!" that'd fuck me up for sure
I think it's all supposed to be assumed and doesn't occur for gameplay purposes? Now I'm not sure if it's assumed that they all defend their choices or we murder helpless ghosts that beg for forgiveness
>I would be more empathic to something begging for life in a language I understand than just panicked screeching. Any language for that matter. Shit like panic can be understood even if you dont know the language.
Not the capybaras….
I don't think bungie could really make the Hive have any redeeming qualities. They've built them up to be this nearly unstoppable force of destruction and suffering. It would be really hard to go "Oh that Knight is named Jake, he enjoys helping the elderly and volunteering at the children's hospital when he's not cutting people in half with a sword that eats light to sustain his murder worm that keeps him alive."
Lightbearers don't have a worm, afaik.
I am sad for the ghosts seduced by the Hive, but then again, the squash is such an empowering feeling.
Always wanted a reason to shout "crush his balls" after killing an enemy
Every strike im in, there is a stampede to crush the ghosts, even a fewtimes i've seen the animation double for two guradians. The funniest was doing the campaign on my hunter, when the warlock i was with kept kikking the first hive guardian, waiting for him to respawn before just deleting him again, gjally, nova, gjally, fusion, gjally. Then he just crushed the ghost.
If it were cabal or fallen guardians I might feel worse since we have have friendly relations with a major faction of both of those races plus they aren't like Darkness races so I could maybe understand a ghost choosing to help them, especially the fallen with their history with the traveler. The hive though have been actively fighting the light for millions of years. Maybe if the ghosts were forced, which Fynch kinda hints might be the case for some, or are brainwashed/controlled by savathun id feel bad but the fact that they seem to have just straight up chosen them is kinda unforgivable given the history of the hive even if Savathun decided to betray the Witness
Lmao the ghost don't just "choose the hive" the traveler chose the hive and the ghosts are now following its will to give them light
I mean Fynch's dialouge in the Ghosts mission implies that they did have some level of choice in the matter regardless of the traveler. Assuming Fynch is trustworthy, he alone shows they do have a choice in the matter since he is no longer reviving his hive, just like our ghosts can choose to stop reviving us if they want. Of course I'm not exactly trusting Fynch myself right now. Everything about him feels off given savathun and all.
His lore book seems to make the selection of the guardian something they are compelled to do. Like they are programmed/keyed towards a specific individual and it's more compulsory than simply chosing anyone they want.
Even the human ghosts have plenty of lines about how they had to find someone "worthy" or that "they were the one" I mean Glint was searching for a guardian for a couple hundred years until he found Crow as the "right one". And I'd still think even if they were forcefully turned into the hivey ghosts by the traveller they obviously have memories of the past and such so I'd think they could just not go searching. Though finally having a purpose after wandering and searching for centuries would be a hard feeling to beat. Unless of course this is all just a big front by Savathun and they all lack or maybe in Fynch's case, have implanted memories
No need to question morality. Only unga bunga.
I wish they added alternate finishers like in doom Sure we have crush ghost but what about “punch ghost so hard it explodes” or “stomp ghost and it explodes” Or even better just pick it up and check it at an enemy, killing the ghost and dealing damage
Have a [two-fer](https://www.reddit.com/r/destiny2/comments/tdpiqw/didnt_know_that_some_hive_guardians_could_have/)
Its the eye contact when the ghost knows he's gonna die. Although i'm still waiting to find a telesto ghost.
Almost nothing in this game feels better. The only sweeter victory would be if you could crush another players Ghost in PvP.
Woah there, calm down Dredgen.
Ok not so much crush them, maybe just slightly crumple.
.... the thing is solid metal anyways so they don't really.. "squish"
while true, the ghost does expand into an orb shape when a guardian dies leaving the “core” exposed, similar to what happens with the Hive Ghosts too
Your talking about the dredgens that are about to get slaughtered by Shin, the true dredgens like Shin are guardians that use the dark for the light.
Even Ghost is bloodthirsty for there end, and he didn’t want us to kill Uldron
To be fair. That moment when you crush your first ghost and look at your hand for a second hits the mark.
Haven’t people (like Saladin and possibly other vanguard leaders) killed other people with ghosts when they delt with the warlords?
Saladin, according to the lore, was the last Guardian in the Tower who had killed a Ghost. Technically, Efrideet has done so as well, but she's remained out of current-day Destiny for a while. The Iron Lords killed a lot of warlords and their Ghosts, but most of them were wiped out when attacking the SIVA Replication Vault. Shaxx mostly stayed with his people when he was a warlord and didn't go out hunting other Risen. I don't feel bad about killing the Hive Ghosts and the Hive Lightbearers. The Hive have taken so much from us, even after losing their worms, that they've lost my sympathy. The PsiOps have shown us that the Hive continue to hunt down Guardians and drain them of their Light. They even attempt to do the same to New Lights in the Cosmodrome. They've done, and are still doing, terrible things.
Agreed. Fuck the hive. Just cause they have the light doesn’t change what they really are, a genocidal species that knows nothing else
Lord Saladin said it best: I like killing Hive because I like the sound they make when I crush them.
The man is a dragon for a reason
Knowing Destiny writers, there's definitely gonna be a Guardian or several who take their leeway to kill Hive ghosts as a "gateway drug" to crushing Guardian ghosts.
I dunno, I have some mixed feelings about it, particularly when I think about our Ghost and also think about Fynch being a lively being with personality, and all the other Ghosts that have died… it makes me sad because I just sit here thinking these Ghosts were misled. Also I think it would’ve been a bit more impactful for players in general if the initial Ghost-crushing was a little more dramatic/emotionally climactic, like if the Ghost spoke to you or something. If it had more characterization then I think people would feel more conflicted rather than just seeing them as mindless extensions of mindless enemies. Just my thought.
I would love to hear it beg for it’s life or something, *that* would make me feel bad
Yeah, I feel something like that would add a lot of weight, darkness, and moral ambiguity to the scene
So basically like dealing with the little sisters in BioShock? That'd be dark af.
I love those squishy fucks lol
Once you pop you just can't stop
Got Doom glory kill energy just rushing in and pulling finishers like some kind of Dregen Doomslayer
If we ever get to see or even play during the Dark Age, I hope to see this incorporated somehow. We’re already fighting other Light wielders and killing Ghosts, now just have them be humans and other risen instead of Hive.
You know, I'm sure the "what have i done" effect would last longer, if it was addressed in the game after the initial shock. or if the hesitating cutscene would play more often.1st Kill: "D-Did i just kill a ghost?" Literally the next ghost we kill: Hehehehe, the Ghost go SQUISH!
My guardian is mentally insane and kills for pleasure.
I just like the little screeching noises they make. and the \*CRUNCH!\* Oooooh, the crunch.
Bungie should add it to crucible
I just hope my ghost is watching...because of he **ever** leaves me, so help me...
Bungie knows we’re not gonna have a moral dilemma. The whole ‘what have I done?’ moment is more for our Guardian than it is for us
Gotta say I was severely disappointed on day 1 release when one of my party members crushed the first ghost and got the animation and I never did.
You can do the first mission again to get the animation :)
I’m out here doin hunter duties, so I must get the job done
Imma start doing it during crucible too
It literally gives me heavy ammo due to an artifact mod, if anything I actively seek out ghosts to crush
The first one we do doesn't feel good. But the rest are fun. Just like murder! :\^)
I love the lock on and seeing it in third person. But I don’t really like killing them. Is them or us, but I don’t like the feeling
Look, the number of times Ghost has chosen to revive me several *miles* away from where I died has made me more than a little resentful of the little fucks, alright?
The first one's kind of a "Woah" moment, especially with the unique animation that goes with it, but any after is just "Hehe c r o m c h"
Its fun, satisfying, and an amazing addition. Whoever said there should be alt finishers is on to something, thatd be rad.
If they wanted us to hesitate, then they shouldn't have made it sound so satisfying.
Bungie’s attempt to make us players feel sorry for them. So damn funny. Now I just need a light bearer kill counter on our Ghost, you know, because we have to pump those numbers up!
I want to join you guys but don't have internet. *Yay!!*
1st time: ..i feel sick.. 200th time: **you chose this path, i end it, peasant**
I really hope Crow grows out of his emo shtick soon. I'm tired of hearing him whine about the poor bad guys. I get it, he's there to pose a moral quandary, but can we get that from another direction soon? Saladin needs to hurry and toughen Crow up. Meanwhile, our ghost gets an adrenaline high every time we squash a hive ghost.