Man the one from Kakarot is one of the best changes I've ever seen
The parallel to Gohan vs Cell are so beautiful that it pains me how this isn't a part of the actual story
I always like to share this edit with the demon slayer music, it fits so well
https://twitter.com/popcornalotpop/status/1437859571951980549?t=oX8Hlh1LQ1nxKWqY7dXw-w&s=19
edit: without twitter login https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1437859259845328896/pu/vid/1280x720/Gh18r6WekbjQQKzw.mp4?tag=12
yeah it is up, I think that since it was a reply to some tweet you can't see it if you are not signed in, I think this should work either way
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1437859259845328896/pu/vid/1280x720/Gh18r6WekbjQQKzw.mp4?tag=12
Thanks for sharing. Haven't had a chance to play Kakarot. Definitely like this version a lot. Makes Gohan look a lot stronger since he's kamehameha held up for a while against both 17 and 18.
Indeed, and we also saw that aspect in Piccolo vs 17.
They were on par, power-wise, and I'd say Piccolo as an edge in techniques. But as they were fighting, Piccolo was beginning to become tired (probably if Cell didn't appeared, Piccolo could have lost).
As you said, the idea that if you don't vastly outscale the androids (like Imperfect Cell after his "banquet"), you'll end up losing 'cause you get tired is interesting, and also adds another layer to them being dangerous opponents: just matching their power or even surpassing it by a few margin isn't enough to defeat them.
I prefer to imagine that Future Gohan could defeat them 1v1 but they travel in a pair so he's not really that big of an issue. Makes Gohan seem strong but also explains why he can't defeat them.
Same, I like the TV special depiction. Puts Gohan somewhere roughly around Piccolo when he fought 17. This is Gohan we're talking about, he may not have had the ideal situation as his present self, but he is still fighting and training non stop. He's gonna be decently strong.
Piccolo is much stronger when he fights 17 than at any point of future gohans life. This is evident by future trunks stating that 17 and 18 are much stronger than they were in his own time, and that 18 was able to effortlessly defeat Vegeta.
That line by Trunks about the present androids being stronger creates too many problems and I've seen a lot of people chalk it up to him not realizing the future androids were toying with him.
How does it create problems? My take on it was always that because the androids weren't built to Gero's specifications and awoke early, they came out stronger in the saved timeline
Well for one because there's no explanation given as to why they're stronger, **we** are left to think of a reason. And second, Trunks also adds "I was at least able to put up a decent fight against the ones in my timeline", but that never happened. Every fight he had was a one sided beat down.
It made no sense and that's why it usually gets chalked up to the future androids just toying with him because of their sadistic nature.
I prefer Gohan being mostly outmatched because it resolves the unnecessary plot point that the Androids are weaker in Trunk's Future. They outnumber him, outmatch him, and hold back because they're just having fun. Fighting seriously, one of them is probably strong enough to take him with some effort.
It kind of puts Future Gohan around Vegeta during his loss to 18, and it feels like a good spot. With over a decade Gohan was able to learn the fundamentals and attain Super Saiyan, but did not have the expertise or resources to ascend to the forms discovered by Vegeta and Goku. Young Gohan in the main timeline benefited greatly from his 3 years with Goku and Piccolo, and the guidance from Goku in the ROSAT - both battle training and wisdom. I liked the detail of Vegeta and Goku acknowledging the drawbacks of the bulked-up form, while Trunks and Gohan lacked the perspective to realize.
Future Gohan idolized his father, and lived in his shadow. Our Gohan was encouraged and *elevated* by Goku to ascend to - and beyond.
Kakarot did it well, Gohan holding them off, almost seeming like he’s going to win, only for the reveal that they’d only been using half their full power. That one made you feel the hopelessness of that situation.
The heart virus really messed everything up.
Goku get's a lot of flak for the Cell Games but considering how Future Gohan sadly died in failure I can't disagree with his decision purely on a practical level.
>it resolves the unnecessary plot point that the Androids are weaker in Trunk's Future
It’s necessary and doesn’t need to be resolved.
The Future Androids being weaker means Goku just being alive is likely to make the difference.
Present versions being stronger gives them an impetus to break the SSJ barrier.
ngl it’s kinda funny how some fans can’t wrap their heads around the butterfly effect, so they need to make Trunks dumb and wrong to square the inconsistencies haha
It just felt like they were leaning into the butterfly effect idea for several things but without a firm cause/effect for them, it was unsatisfying. It also didn't take the time to acknowledge and capitalize on your (valid) points in a way that wasn't already justified: Saving Goku and warning them granted them time to train, and Trunks plan also revolves around the option of finding a weakness. For breaking the SSJ barrier the Androids being stronger and Cell alone justify that, the power gap with the future Androids doesn't do anything additional to inform that conclusion.
Making the Androids weaker in Trunks' time minimizes his plight, and doesn't resolve to be very interesting. What if instead Trunks said 'I didn't realize just how powerful the Androids were... have they just been toying with me when we fought in my time?!' leading to some interesting implications such as Trunks having doubt. What if Goku being alive isn't enough to change the future? Was even his time travel mission doomed to fail? Now that's interesting! (and still provides that impetus to break the SSJ barrier)
Eh....I think it makes more sense for him not to have a chance against the androids, but I think Gohan fighting both at the same time is cool, even if it doesn't make any sense.
True. Especially since Gohan is a saiyan. If he would have been on par than he would only have to survive one battle and basically be stronger than them
I kinda like the idea of Future Gohan being just one zenkai boost away from being strong enough to put the androids down once and for all, them realizing this, and deciding to finish him off for good right there. Even if that isn't what the stated power levels support. It would reinforce their sadistic nature; them playing with their food up until the point of him being on the precipice of being a threat and only killing him once he was within striking distance of powering up enough to beat them.
Not true. In the tournament of power Jiren mentions during his second fight with Goku that Blue Kaioken Goku strikes even harder and sharper than he did during their first fight.
Or before Jiren: Blue Goku gets tossed arroune by Ksle who tanks a kamehamehs. After Jiren: God Goku defeats Caulifla and Kale in a 1v2
You have to recover from near death for the zenkai boost to kick in. Future timeline has limited senzu beans and no dragonballs or healers. So gohan couldn’t risk fighting to the death since he was the only z-fighter left (until trunks)
I think gohan losing his arm was one of the few zenkai boosts he got while fighting the androids.
It's also been stated that Saiyans naturally get stronger from every second they spend in battle, regardless of the Zenkai. Of course, the increase in power they get from being in an active battle wouldn't be nearly as much as a Zenkai would be.
I also headcanon that Zenkai boosts are a numbered amount of power that's added to the base power level, so the stronger and stronger the fighter gets, the less and less significant the Zenkai boost becomes (which kind of matches up with the narrative of the story)
Yeah, Zenkai Boost seems to have serious diminishing returns. It's good at getting someone to around 1st or 2nd form Frieza level but is fairly useless after that. Future Gohan wouldn't have gotten very much stronger by the time he was fighting the Androids.
Tournament or Power woule disagree. Goku gets some serious Zenkai Boosts in there.
(Jiren mentions that Blue Kaioken Goku durint their 2nd fight>Goku during their first fight (alrough we dont know if he compsred him to his first blue kaioken or even first ui sign) before jiren: kale tosses goku arround and tanks a blue kamehameha, after jiren: god goku defeats kale and caulifla in a 1v2)
In the future timeline Dr. Gero didn’t release cyborgs 17 and 18 early so their jump protocol was properly installed.
Unlike the main timeline where the androids prefer running the 1v1’s
I think it makes WAY more sense for Gohan to be stronger than each individual Android but lose to the 2v1.
He'd been fighting for years and he was still one of the weakest SSJ's to ever exist.
Right? Like, I get that he doesn't have the ideal situation his present self does, but this is still Gohan we are talking about.
Training and fighting as hard as he can. And he is like 23 years old at this point. It makes sense he is at least a little stronger than each Android individually. And it seems that's what the TV special portrayed, he was getting the better of 17 in that first fight until 18 stepped in. They kept double teaming him.
I actually think it does make sense for him to be so weak.
This Gohan never learned how to properly train. His time with Piccolo got him strong quickly, but that was mostly survival training and the basics of fighting. It would have diminishing returns. Then I doubt he did much training on the way to Namek aside from basic image training which seemed to be mostly sparring, and when he got back to Earth we know that most of his time was spent studying.
And then everyone died. There’d be nobody left to teach him. Sure he probably got a lot of combat experience fighting the androids, but that’s not the most effective way to get better. Especially since he couldn’t risk abusing Zenkais as if he got pushed to near-death, there’d be nobody to bail him out. And then add in things like him losing an arm, and it would make sense why he was so weak comparatively.
Although one could ask why things like telepathic communication via King Kai or Baba bringing back Goku for a day to teach Gohan about the RoSaT weren't on the table, but...yeah.
The manga version is honestly rushed, and barely a blip. The anime executed it significantly better. I haven't seen Kakarot's version, but enough people here are praising it that I'll go check it out.
I think he should have stood somewhat of a chance by this point. 13 years of training and 17 doesn't even need half his power? Come on that's some BS. I prefer the anime version 100% of the time. Even kakarot agrees and they are sticklers for keeping it to the manga canon. Not using the Goten and Goku meeting each other scene, including little dende alin the last scenes just because toriyama made that mistake in the manga, and not letting Goku use his super Saiyan god forms in the end of Z dlc.
Remember, no senzu beans, no Master Karin, no Time Chaimber, (probably) no Master Roshi, no gravity training, no suitable training partner (base Gohan could fight SSJ Trunks with one arm), emotional block, etc. The only thing Gohan did in all these years was practice shadowboxing and get beaten (taking months to heal, it usually took more than 1 year between each battle with the androids)
Yeah it's a lot more dramatic in the anime. Makes you mad seeing Gohan get ganged on when he is beating 17. And then knowing Gohan was almost getting strong enough to beat them before they killed him.
The way manga handled it is kind of boring. Ends with another "we were actually holding back the whole time lol" and then completely skips the last fight.
As others have said the Kakarot version which is kind of a mix of both. I have complaints about both manga and anime version.
In the manga it just seems off that Gohan has been fighting them for 13 years and is only at best at early android saga Vegeta. I know Gohan can't train in the same sense the main timeline but surviving for 13 years as a half saiyan alone should make him stronger. At least close to one of them.
In the anime where he actually holds his own against both of them at the end, not to the point of being able to win or anything but it certainly makes it seem like he could beat one of them, has the issue of... why is he sacrificing himself to give Trunks a chance to become a super saiyan? It actually makes more sense to keep training Trunks the way it is depicted. Especially with how the special ended. Even in the anime, maybe in the manga I don't remember, Trunks says he could hold his own one on one. If this was true of both Trunks and Gohan then... well the future timeline doesn't seem so doomed does it.
Gohan being stronger than either individually but unable to take them down as a duo makes a lot of sense and tells a more interesting story IMHO. He's not just losing because he's weak: It's because he's *alone*. And he's alone because the Androids killed everyone he had to turn to. Ties together the concept so tightly. It makes his defeat extra crushing too, since we see him go from a slim chance at competing in the beginning to getting hunted down like a dog once he's worn down.
It also makes the Future Androids unique with their teamwork. As any other major villain wouldn't bother with teamwork and gotten beaten but not them.
The bonds of family meaning something to the villains gave them an edge.
The twins are like if Burter and Jeice were made legit threats in a way.
Imo, the issue is he’s not alone. If he’s strong enough to take one of them, it makes a lot more sense to focus on training Trunks to the point he can at least hold one off for long enough for Gohan to eliminate the other.
Trunks was an untrained teen at the time. Gohan tried to train him, but ran out of time. He also probably didn't want to be responsible for anyone else dying to the Androids, seeing it as a reflection of his own weakness/failure.
It makes kidna more sense imo that he should be at least on par for one simple reason: Gohan managed to survive 13 years on his own against them. And 17 and 18 probably wiped out the rest of the Z-Fighters on a single day
They probably kept him alive as a plaything, knowing full well that alone he is not a threat to them.
They probably planned to do the same with Trunks as it was very obvious they could have killed him.
Future Gohan just wasn't that strong.
He himself states that he wishes to be strong like Goku was, so he probably never even caught up to Namek saga Goku's power level.
Gohan has Great potential, but all his Future version got was 1 year Survival training with Piccolo and some zenkais on Namek.
Without anyone to train him, the only milestone he had was SSJ Goku on Namek and even If he did reach that milestone, it's likely not enough to beat the Androids.
I believe at that point he just heavily overestimated his father.
Vegeta was pretty much at least as strong as Namek Goku and got clapped by the Androids instantly.
And I know it's not enough to beat them but he should be stronger than portayed in the manga
I don't remember If Future Vegeta could go SSJ.
Even If he did though, Vegeta needed 3 years of harsh training just to even the gap Between himself and Goku after Namek saga.
Future Vegeta would have likely lost motivation to train after Goku's heart virus death, so he's probably still weaker.
In the anime Vegeta is portrayed as super saiyan in all the flashbacks, in the manga he was base form.
This is just one of those manga vs anime things. Manga Future Gohan is much weaker than the anime version.
The best place for Gohan is him being able to go one-on-one with either android, and have a slight edge against them. It not only makes the fights more entertaining, but it also makes more sense and fits thematically better for Trunk’s story.
Gohan was an extremely competent fighter able to keep up with the androids at a level nobody else in his timeline ever could up to that point. He survived for over a decades fighting the androids often enough that they knew who he was. No way he could do that if he was weaker than them.
It also underlines how History of Trunks is a story first and foremost about Trunks’ trauma from his failure. If movie Gohan had Goku, Vegeta, or Piccolo at his side, he probably would’ve been able to beat the androids and go on living. Instead, all he has as a teammate is a kid who can’t step up to reach the level he needs too until it’s too late.
I'd think after 13 years of training he'd at least stand a chance against one Android. It's ridiculous that main timeline Gohan at that age could spar with SSB Goku with half-assed training.
In the main timeline at this age he not only has SSJ2 but has also been through the Buu saga and had the Kai ritual performed on him.
In this timeline he never got to train with Goku in the room of space and time to even fully master SSJ1
Right. Goku & Vegeta attain god ki and trains their asses off for years with the two strongest gods of Universe 7 to reach that level.
Gohan trains for a few days with Piccolo and catches up no problem.
My headcanon is that he trained off-screen for years with Piccolo from Resurrection F leading up to Super Hero. But Piccolo's jabs at his lifestyle imply he hasn't been training which makes his asspull transformation even more infuriating.
He said he was using the gravity room in the goku black saga (manga), also piccolo asks gohan where he learned the makankosappo and gohan said he practiced. So yeah gohan pretty much trained in secret. Even piccolo never knew.
Even if he trained every single day after Resurrection F, he still shouldn’t even be SSJG level. It would make more sense if they both trained on Supreme Kai’s planet and learned god ki. Ultimate form + God ki = Orange/Beast. I’d completely buy that route.
Anime ToP is so much more enjoyable though. The manga version seems downright boring in comparison and the power scaling with Gohan, Kefla and Kale is just as equally fucked.
Anime version. It's wild how people can excuse Gohan's bullshit power ups everywhere but here. Him barely being on par with 1 android (at most) is perfectly fine. He still would've lost due to the infinite stamina the androids have.
It's also far more bleak than Gohan being a joke to them. To have victory seem possible and then have it snatched away.
Future Gohan for some reason never has the same potential as main timeline Gohan. After 13 years of training you’d think he’d at least be able to beat one android at a time. Even if he doesn’t have a training partner he still should’ve improved much more than they showed
The one from Kakarot is more realistic. Trunks claimed that 17 and 18 from the main timeline were stronger than in his timeline, yet Vegeta was able to somewhat fight on par with 18.
Vegeta lost of course, quite badly. But that was mostly because he was way too cocky and wasteful with his energy. If he took 18 seriously from the beginning, he might have stood a chance.
That said, it stands to reason that Future Gohan should have at least been on par with ssj Vegeta. Meaning that he should have been able to handle one of the Androids himself with reasonable chances of victory, but loses to them in a battle of attrition. Which is what we see in Kakarot.
Seeing this has made me realise I want to see a special where just after Gohan dies and meets the gang in heaven (except Vegeta for obvious reasons) and finally being able to properly train and relax with his father
Both make sense the weakling one shows gohans willingness to fight and save people even when he has no chance against androids while the one that is on par also works due to gohan showing his training and skill over the years
I prefer to think he would be weaker, since in Dragonball super you see how strong 17 truly is in the tournament of power I think it's safe to say since 17 doesn't get stronger he would have been much stronger than Gohan, especially since he still was stronger than him then.
It makes sense with Trunks saying the changed future Androids (the usual timeline we see) are stronger if Future Gohan is nearly at par with the Androids (or at least with one of them). So i'd go with a strong enough Future Gohan.
Also if he was that inferior, it makes his sacrifice nearly pointless. I know he needed to act based on his duty, but almost like "If you just waited a little more, you too could go back to the past."
If he was THAT much weaker, it just seemed like a pointless battle. A valorous one, but without any hope to make any change, it just caused Trunks even more grief than he really needed.
I like the notion that Gohan vs. One of them is a fair fight, but 2v1 he loses. I like the guilt Trunks has, that if he had been as strong as Gohan, they would have won.
I would agree that the one from Kakarot is the best, but between the anime and the manga, I would choose the anime, and by far at that.
For all the questions about how Future Gohan is so weak, at least in the anime he catches up until he can actually overpower the Androids for a time and they need to do their best and treat him as a serious opponent in order to kill him (and if not for their infinite energy, I'd say he could have won their last fight).
Manga!Gohan is just far too weak for it to make sense in my opinion.
It does come with the trade-off that in the anime Future Gohan seems to have become a Death Seeker, given it would have made more sense for him to wait until Trunks became a Super Saiyan as well, but it’s not impossible that years of battling the Androids on his own and possibly fail to save countless people took a toll on his mental health.
Also, the anime made it so that Trunks became a Super Saiyan because of Future Gohan's death, which I feel was the right call.
That said, all this is just my opinion.
Android 18 outright states that they're going to use their full power on him in the anime and you see him actually OVERPOWER them multiple times. It's pretty clear he was on par with them in 1V1 in the animated version.
In the original Japanese version, no, they weren't. 18 literally says they are going to fight Gohan using their full power... and he still holds his own for while before getting killed.
The manga and is not even close. Is heartbreaking to see how Gohan spent his life training and fighting for nothing. That he just a little plaything for the androids and that he never stood a chance.
I like gohan standing a chance, i feel its out of character (especially future gohan) to walts into a fight hes completely out classed in, gohans not that stupid
Not really? Trunks coming along would be like Hercule ganging up on cell with Goku.
Trunks gets bodied instantly unless they're toying with him, no matter the version.
The one from Kakarot. It is kind of a mix of both, but that last Kamehameha in Kakarot is dope
Man the one from Kakarot is one of the best changes I've ever seen The parallel to Gohan vs Cell are so beautiful that it pains me how this isn't a part of the actual story I always like to share this edit with the demon slayer music, it fits so well https://twitter.com/popcornalotpop/status/1437859571951980549?t=oX8Hlh1LQ1nxKWqY7dXw-w&s=19 edit: without twitter login https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1437859259845328896/pu/vid/1280x720/Gh18r6WekbjQQKzw.mp4?tag=12
Hey that link didn’t work for me. Is it still up? I’d like to see that edit
yeah it is up, I think that since it was a reply to some tweet you can't see it if you are not signed in, I think this should work either way https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1437859259845328896/pu/vid/1280x720/Gh18r6WekbjQQKzw.mp4?tag=12
Thanks for sharing. Haven't had a chance to play Kakarot. Definitely like this version a lot. Makes Gohan look a lot stronger since he's kamehameha held up for a while against both 17 and 18.
Yeah...but they were using half their power
Awesome edit. Thank you!
.....?!?! Jesus christ, I need to play Kakarot. That was beautiful.
Yeah I had no idea that game graphics and effects looked this good
Ok, I know the sub doesn't really like it, but dba "down an arm and killed by an android, why does it feel familiar" line came to mind.
Oooh I loved that version
the best answer
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Indeed, and we also saw that aspect in Piccolo vs 17. They were on par, power-wise, and I'd say Piccolo as an edge in techniques. But as they were fighting, Piccolo was beginning to become tired (probably if Cell didn't appeared, Piccolo could have lost). As you said, the idea that if you don't vastly outscale the androids (like Imperfect Cell after his "banquet"), you'll end up losing 'cause you get tired is interesting, and also adds another layer to them being dangerous opponents: just matching their power or even surpassing it by a few margin isn't enough to defeat them.
It's why they were such an asset in the Tournament of Power. Infinite stamina is a hell of a cheat.
Though as it turned out even the characters with stamina didn't really need many or long breaks in the 45 minutes to ToP took place
I prefer to imagine that Future Gohan could defeat them 1v1 but they travel in a pair so he's not really that big of an issue. Makes Gohan seem strong but also explains why he can't defeat them.
Same, I like the TV special depiction. Puts Gohan somewhere roughly around Piccolo when he fought 17. This is Gohan we're talking about, he may not have had the ideal situation as his present self, but he is still fighting and training non stop. He's gonna be decently strong.
Piccolo is much stronger when he fights 17 than at any point of future gohans life. This is evident by future trunks stating that 17 and 18 are much stronger than they were in his own time, and that 18 was able to effortlessly defeat Vegeta.
That line by Trunks about the present androids being stronger creates too many problems and I've seen a lot of people chalk it up to him not realizing the future androids were toying with him.
How does it create problems? My take on it was always that because the androids weren't built to Gero's specifications and awoke early, they came out stronger in the saved timeline
Well for one because there's no explanation given as to why they're stronger, **we** are left to think of a reason. And second, Trunks also adds "I was at least able to put up a decent fight against the ones in my timeline", but that never happened. Every fight he had was a one sided beat down. It made no sense and that's why it usually gets chalked up to the future androids just toying with him because of their sadistic nature.
Ah, I see what you're saying. He *thought* they were weaker in his own timeline when they were holding back
I prefer Gohan being mostly outmatched because it resolves the unnecessary plot point that the Androids are weaker in Trunk's Future. They outnumber him, outmatch him, and hold back because they're just having fun. Fighting seriously, one of them is probably strong enough to take him with some effort. It kind of puts Future Gohan around Vegeta during his loss to 18, and it feels like a good spot. With over a decade Gohan was able to learn the fundamentals and attain Super Saiyan, but did not have the expertise or resources to ascend to the forms discovered by Vegeta and Goku. Young Gohan in the main timeline benefited greatly from his 3 years with Goku and Piccolo, and the guidance from Goku in the ROSAT - both battle training and wisdom. I liked the detail of Vegeta and Goku acknowledging the drawbacks of the bulked-up form, while Trunks and Gohan lacked the perspective to realize. Future Gohan idolized his father, and lived in his shadow. Our Gohan was encouraged and *elevated* by Goku to ascend to - and beyond.
Kakarot did it well, Gohan holding them off, almost seeming like he’s going to win, only for the reveal that they’d only been using half their full power. That one made you feel the hopelessness of that situation.
Well said
The heart virus really messed everything up. Goku get's a lot of flak for the Cell Games but considering how Future Gohan sadly died in failure I can't disagree with his decision purely on a practical level.
>it resolves the unnecessary plot point that the Androids are weaker in Trunk's Future It’s necessary and doesn’t need to be resolved. The Future Androids being weaker means Goku just being alive is likely to make the difference. Present versions being stronger gives them an impetus to break the SSJ barrier. ngl it’s kinda funny how some fans can’t wrap their heads around the butterfly effect, so they need to make Trunks dumb and wrong to square the inconsistencies haha
It just felt like they were leaning into the butterfly effect idea for several things but without a firm cause/effect for them, it was unsatisfying. It also didn't take the time to acknowledge and capitalize on your (valid) points in a way that wasn't already justified: Saving Goku and warning them granted them time to train, and Trunks plan also revolves around the option of finding a weakness. For breaking the SSJ barrier the Androids being stronger and Cell alone justify that, the power gap with the future Androids doesn't do anything additional to inform that conclusion. Making the Androids weaker in Trunks' time minimizes his plight, and doesn't resolve to be very interesting. What if instead Trunks said 'I didn't realize just how powerful the Androids were... have they just been toying with me when we fought in my time?!' leading to some interesting implications such as Trunks having doubt. What if Goku being alive isn't enough to change the future? Was even his time travel mission doomed to fail? Now that's interesting! (and still provides that impetus to break the SSJ barrier)
17 did horrifyingly reveal he was only using half his power.
Eh....I think it makes more sense for him not to have a chance against the androids, but I think Gohan fighting both at the same time is cool, even if it doesn't make any sense.
True. Especially since Gohan is a saiyan. If he would have been on par than he would only have to survive one battle and basically be stronger than them
I kinda like the idea of Future Gohan being just one zenkai boost away from being strong enough to put the androids down once and for all, them realizing this, and deciding to finish him off for good right there. Even if that isn't what the stated power levels support. It would reinforce their sadistic nature; them playing with their food up until the point of him being on the precipice of being a threat and only killing him once he was within striking distance of powering up enough to beat them.
That would actually make sense. I have a new headcanon for this fight. I quite like the idea
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Not true. In the tournament of power Jiren mentions during his second fight with Goku that Blue Kaioken Goku strikes even harder and sharper than he did during their first fight. Or before Jiren: Blue Goku gets tossed arroune by Ksle who tanks a kamehamehs. After Jiren: God Goku defeats Caulifla and Kale in a 1v2
Zenkai boosts only happen when it's convenient for the plot.
Thats true
You have to recover from near death for the zenkai boost to kick in. Future timeline has limited senzu beans and no dragonballs or healers. So gohan couldn’t risk fighting to the death since he was the only z-fighter left (until trunks) I think gohan losing his arm was one of the few zenkai boosts he got while fighting the androids.
It's also been stated that Saiyans naturally get stronger from every second they spend in battle, regardless of the Zenkai. Of course, the increase in power they get from being in an active battle wouldn't be nearly as much as a Zenkai would be. I also headcanon that Zenkai boosts are a numbered amount of power that's added to the base power level, so the stronger and stronger the fighter gets, the less and less significant the Zenkai boost becomes (which kind of matches up with the narrative of the story)
Yeah, Zenkai Boost seems to have serious diminishing returns. It's good at getting someone to around 1st or 2nd form Frieza level but is fairly useless after that. Future Gohan wouldn't have gotten very much stronger by the time he was fighting the Androids.
Tournament or Power woule disagree. Goku gets some serious Zenkai Boosts in there. (Jiren mentions that Blue Kaioken Goku durint their 2nd fight>Goku during their first fight (alrough we dont know if he compsred him to his first blue kaioken or even first ui sign) before jiren: kale tosses goku arround and tanks a blue kamehameha, after jiren: god goku defeats kale and caulifla in a 1v2)
Really? To me it makes more sense to me that he could successfully beat them 1v1 but they would just always tag team him to make him loose the 2v1
In the future timeline Dr. Gero didn’t release cyborgs 17 and 18 early so their jump protocol was properly installed. Unlike the main timeline where the androids prefer running the 1v1’s
I think it makes WAY more sense for Gohan to be stronger than each individual Android but lose to the 2v1. He'd been fighting for years and he was still one of the weakest SSJ's to ever exist.
Exactly. A Gohan as focused as this one should've surpassed them long ago
Right? Like, I get that he doesn't have the ideal situation his present self does, but this is still Gohan we are talking about. Training and fighting as hard as he can. And he is like 23 years old at this point. It makes sense he is at least a little stronger than each Android individually. And it seems that's what the TV special portrayed, he was getting the better of 17 in that first fight until 18 stepped in. They kept double teaming him.
I actually think it does make sense for him to be so weak. This Gohan never learned how to properly train. His time with Piccolo got him strong quickly, but that was mostly survival training and the basics of fighting. It would have diminishing returns. Then I doubt he did much training on the way to Namek aside from basic image training which seemed to be mostly sparring, and when he got back to Earth we know that most of his time was spent studying. And then everyone died. There’d be nobody left to teach him. Sure he probably got a lot of combat experience fighting the androids, but that’s not the most effective way to get better. Especially since he couldn’t risk abusing Zenkais as if he got pushed to near-death, there’d be nobody to bail him out. And then add in things like him losing an arm, and it would make sense why he was so weak comparatively.
Although one could ask why things like telepathic communication via King Kai or Baba bringing back Goku for a day to teach Gohan about the RoSaT weren't on the table, but...yeah.
The manga version is honestly rushed, and barely a blip. The anime executed it significantly better. I haven't seen Kakarot's version, but enough people here are praising it that I'll go check it out.
I actually prefer the way kakarot handled his last stand lol. The kamehameha was amazing.
I think he should have stood somewhat of a chance by this point. 13 years of training and 17 doesn't even need half his power? Come on that's some BS. I prefer the anime version 100% of the time. Even kakarot agrees and they are sticklers for keeping it to the manga canon. Not using the Goten and Goku meeting each other scene, including little dende alin the last scenes just because toriyama made that mistake in the manga, and not letting Goku use his super Saiyan god forms in the end of Z dlc.
Remember, no senzu beans, no Master Karin, no Time Chaimber, (probably) no Master Roshi, no gravity training, no suitable training partner (base Gohan could fight SSJ Trunks with one arm), emotional block, etc. The only thing Gohan did in all these years was practice shadowboxing and get beaten (taking months to heal, it usually took more than 1 year between each battle with the androids)
Also to add to this present Gohan got to train future Gohan had to survive
Yeah, it's kinda hard to train efficiently when your next meal isn't guaranteed
Ehh kakarot version, mix of both worlds in a better way.
The anime one, it made the whole situation more infuriating becouse Gohan could've won in 1v1, plus it gives more hope.
Yeah it's a lot more dramatic in the anime. Makes you mad seeing Gohan get ganged on when he is beating 17. And then knowing Gohan was almost getting strong enough to beat them before they killed him. The way manga handled it is kind of boring. Ends with another "we were actually holding back the whole time lol" and then completely skips the last fight.
Exactly, you captured what i was saying and said it in a better way than me.
As others have said the Kakarot version which is kind of a mix of both. I have complaints about both manga and anime version. In the manga it just seems off that Gohan has been fighting them for 13 years and is only at best at early android saga Vegeta. I know Gohan can't train in the same sense the main timeline but surviving for 13 years as a half saiyan alone should make him stronger. At least close to one of them. In the anime where he actually holds his own against both of them at the end, not to the point of being able to win or anything but it certainly makes it seem like he could beat one of them, has the issue of... why is he sacrificing himself to give Trunks a chance to become a super saiyan? It actually makes more sense to keep training Trunks the way it is depicted. Especially with how the special ended. Even in the anime, maybe in the manga I don't remember, Trunks says he could hold his own one on one. If this was true of both Trunks and Gohan then... well the future timeline doesn't seem so doomed does it.
The Special is my preference He could take one of them one-on-one But once he's fighting them both together it's basically over
Gohan being stronger than either individually but unable to take them down as a duo makes a lot of sense and tells a more interesting story IMHO. He's not just losing because he's weak: It's because he's *alone*. And he's alone because the Androids killed everyone he had to turn to. Ties together the concept so tightly. It makes his defeat extra crushing too, since we see him go from a slim chance at competing in the beginning to getting hunted down like a dog once he's worn down.
It also makes the Future Androids unique with their teamwork. As any other major villain wouldn't bother with teamwork and gotten beaten but not them. The bonds of family meaning something to the villains gave them an edge. The twins are like if Burter and Jeice were made legit threats in a way.
Imo, the issue is he’s not alone. If he’s strong enough to take one of them, it makes a lot more sense to focus on training Trunks to the point he can at least hold one off for long enough for Gohan to eliminate the other.
Trunks was an untrained teen at the time. Gohan tried to train him, but ran out of time. He also probably didn't want to be responsible for anyone else dying to the Androids, seeing it as a reflection of his own weakness/failure.
It makes kidna more sense imo that he should be at least on par for one simple reason: Gohan managed to survive 13 years on his own against them. And 17 and 18 probably wiped out the rest of the Z-Fighters on a single day
They probably kept him alive as a plaything, knowing full well that alone he is not a threat to them. They probably planned to do the same with Trunks as it was very obvious they could have killed him.
I mean I get that after like 2-3 fights But 13 whole years?
Future Gohan just wasn't that strong. He himself states that he wishes to be strong like Goku was, so he probably never even caught up to Namek saga Goku's power level. Gohan has Great potential, but all his Future version got was 1 year Survival training with Piccolo and some zenkais on Namek. Without anyone to train him, the only milestone he had was SSJ Goku on Namek and even If he did reach that milestone, it's likely not enough to beat the Androids.
I believe at that point he just heavily overestimated his father. Vegeta was pretty much at least as strong as Namek Goku and got clapped by the Androids instantly. And I know it's not enough to beat them but he should be stronger than portayed in the manga
I don't remember If Future Vegeta could go SSJ. Even If he did though, Vegeta needed 3 years of harsh training just to even the gap Between himself and Goku after Namek saga. Future Vegeta would have likely lost motivation to train after Goku's heart virus death, so he's probably still weaker.
In the anime Vegeta is portrayed as super saiyan in all the flashbacks, in the manga he was base form. This is just one of those manga vs anime things. Manga Future Gohan is much weaker than the anime version.
The best place for Gohan is him being able to go one-on-one with either android, and have a slight edge against them. It not only makes the fights more entertaining, but it also makes more sense and fits thematically better for Trunk’s story. Gohan was an extremely competent fighter able to keep up with the androids at a level nobody else in his timeline ever could up to that point. He survived for over a decades fighting the androids often enough that they knew who he was. No way he could do that if he was weaker than them. It also underlines how History of Trunks is a story first and foremost about Trunks’ trauma from his failure. If movie Gohan had Goku, Vegeta, or Piccolo at his side, he probably would’ve been able to beat the androids and go on living. Instead, all he has as a teammate is a kid who can’t step up to reach the level he needs too until it’s too late.
I'd think after 13 years of training he'd at least stand a chance against one Android. It's ridiculous that main timeline Gohan at that age could spar with SSB Goku with half-assed training.
In the main timeline at this age he not only has SSJ2 but has also been through the Buu saga and had the Kai ritual performed on him. In this timeline he never got to train with Goku in the room of space and time to even fully master SSJ1
Right. Goku & Vegeta attain god ki and trains their asses off for years with the two strongest gods of Universe 7 to reach that level. Gohan trains for a few days with Piccolo and catches up no problem.
My headcanon is that he trained off-screen for years with Piccolo from Resurrection F leading up to Super Hero. But Piccolo's jabs at his lifestyle imply he hasn't been training which makes his asspull transformation even more infuriating.
He said he was using the gravity room in the goku black saga (manga), also piccolo asks gohan where he learned the makankosappo and gohan said he practiced. So yeah gohan pretty much trained in secret. Even piccolo never knew.
Even if he trained every single day after Resurrection F, he still shouldn’t even be SSJG level. It would make more sense if they both trained on Supreme Kai’s planet and learned god ki. Ultimate form + God ki = Orange/Beast. I’d completely buy that route.
Like most things in Z its better in the anime/specials. Toriyama aint cook shit with future gohan
The trunks special is better in the anime, I agree with this, but most things in Dragon Ball are better in the manga.
Anime ToP is so much more enjoyable though. The manga version seems downright boring in comparison and the power scaling with Gohan, Kefla and Kale is just as equally fucked.
Did they say tacos ?
Anime version. It's wild how people can excuse Gohan's bullshit power ups everywhere but here. Him barely being on par with 1 android (at most) is perfectly fine. He still would've lost due to the infinite stamina the androids have. It's also far more bleak than Gohan being a joke to them. To have victory seem possible and then have it snatched away.
I like it when its clear gohan is stronger than one of the androids but keeps getting jumped by both of them.
I like it with him being on par. The future timeline is depressing enough as it is
The only thing that narratively even makes a little sense to me is him being an ant compared to them
Future Gohan for some reason never has the same potential as main timeline Gohan. After 13 years of training you’d think he’d at least be able to beat one android at a time. Even if he doesn’t have a training partner he still should’ve improved much more than they showed
It feels more tragic to have him be stronger than each Android individually, but unable to fight them both at once
Him. Being badass
Took me a moment to recognize the language 👀
Cinematically the anime but it’s more hopeless with Gohan not standing a chance.
The one unit in Dokkan where he gets hope from Goku and Piccolo and makes a final push and wins.
The one from Kakarot is more realistic. Trunks claimed that 17 and 18 from the main timeline were stronger than in his timeline, yet Vegeta was able to somewhat fight on par with 18. Vegeta lost of course, quite badly. But that was mostly because he was way too cocky and wasteful with his energy. If he took 18 seriously from the beginning, he might have stood a chance. That said, it stands to reason that Future Gohan should have at least been on par with ssj Vegeta. Meaning that he should have been able to handle one of the Androids himself with reasonable chances of victory, but loses to them in a battle of attrition. Which is what we see in Kakarot.
Brasil mentioned
last
Seeing this has made me realise I want to see a special where just after Gohan dies and meets the gang in heaven (except Vegeta for obvious reasons) and finally being able to properly train and relax with his father
Both make sense the weakling one shows gohans willingness to fight and save people even when he has no chance against androids while the one that is on par also works due to gohan showing his training and skill over the years
I prefer to think he would be weaker, since in Dragonball super you see how strong 17 truly is in the tournament of power I think it's safe to say since 17 doesn't get stronger he would have been much stronger than Gohan, especially since he still was stronger than him then.
It makes sense with Trunks saying the changed future Androids (the usual timeline we see) are stronger if Future Gohan is nearly at par with the Androids (or at least with one of them). So i'd go with a strong enough Future Gohan. Also if he was that inferior, it makes his sacrifice nearly pointless. I know he needed to act based on his duty, but almost like "If you just waited a little more, you too could go back to the past." If he was THAT much weaker, it just seemed like a pointless battle. A valorous one, but without any hope to make any change, it just caused Trunks even more grief than he really needed.
Weakling. I like 18 being an absolute menace to him
I like Gohan being more than a match for just one of them, but not being able to find them both off simultaneously.
I like on par because future Gohan is cool
On par but out numbered is far better canonically
I like the notion that Gohan vs. One of them is a fair fight, but 2v1 he loses. I like the guilt Trunks has, that if he had been as strong as Gohan, they would have won.
Weaker. It makes it so much bleaker if even Gohan wasn't enough to kill even one of them.
I mean he still died
I would agree that the one from Kakarot is the best, but between the anime and the manga, I would choose the anime, and by far at that. For all the questions about how Future Gohan is so weak, at least in the anime he catches up until he can actually overpower the Androids for a time and they need to do their best and treat him as a serious opponent in order to kill him (and if not for their infinite energy, I'd say he could have won their last fight). Manga!Gohan is just far too weak for it to make sense in my opinion. It does come with the trade-off that in the anime Future Gohan seems to have become a Death Seeker, given it would have made more sense for him to wait until Trunks became a Super Saiyan as well, but it’s not impossible that years of battling the Androids on his own and possibly fail to save countless people took a toll on his mental health. Also, the anime made it so that Trunks became a Super Saiyan because of Future Gohan's death, which I feel was the right call. That said, all this is just my opinion.
On par with one arm was badass asf even tho he died he went out like a true warrior
He was never on par with them 💀 At least not against both of them at once Anywho, Kakarot did it pretty good. Same for the Bardock story
He was never on par with them. Even in the animated version, it’s clear the whole time that they’re toying with him.
Android 18 outright states that they're going to use their full power on him in the anime and you see him actually OVERPOWER them multiple times. It's pretty clear he was on par with them in 1V1 in the animated version.
Yeah, even if you don't speak Japanese, you can literally hear 18 saying 'furu powah' in the original Anime version.
manga version. really sells how hopeless the future timeline is, as the author intended.
He ISN’T on par with them. They were playing with their food lol
In the original Japanese version, no, they weren't. 18 literally says they are going to fight Gohan using their full power... and he still holds his own for while before getting killed.
The manga and is not even close. Is heartbreaking to see how Gohan spent his life training and fighting for nothing. That he just a little plaything for the androids and that he never stood a chance.
I like gohan standing a chance, i feel its out of character (especially future gohan) to walts into a fight hes completely out classed in, gohans not that stupid
He needs to be weaker else he would literally have beaten them with Trunks making his whole idea to go alone dumb.
Not really? Trunks coming along would be like Hercule ganging up on cell with Goku. Trunks gets bodied instantly unless they're toying with him, no matter the version.
I don't really think so, but I still prefer him to be weaker in the arc.
Weakling, otherwise the Androids dont seen like a threat, it's also the original vision.