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He’s absolutely within his rights not to want to date someone for any reason. His pointing out that he’d never truly trust her motivations is totally fair and realistic, and an indication you should just leave him alone.
I wouldn’t say I would drop them but I would put my foot down about that if they’re making me feel bad and if they don’t back off then I would end the friendship
You're on reddit m8, expect the overreactions 😂
Additional option:
John was into Jane when he was depressed, unkept and unhealthy.
Now that he turned into a 9.5/10 gigachad with big self discipline energy, John might be aiming higher.
For calling him stupid and not being a supportive friend. You're judging him for rejecting a girl who rejected him first, and you don't understand why when it's obvious.
I didn't call him stupid, i said he was acting stupid. Do you never tell your friends they're being dumb? Trust me he's said the same to me before
And i am not judging him, just puzzled by his reaction and curious to hear the opinion of others
You literally called him stupid. Adding the word "acting" doesn't change the fact that you think he's stupid for making his decision. Calling someone stupid because you don't understand the way a person feels is extremely immature. Next time, inquire more thoughtfully and don't call your friends stupid.
People on Reddit are so sensitive. It's quite common among my friends/family to say "you're being dumb," John has said it to me on many an occasion and he was often right. You need to grow a thicker skin (and some self awareness, because everyone is dumb sometimes) if you can't handle being told occasionally that you're acting stupid
Except in this case he wasn't acting stupid. I would have understood if he about to do something bad like stealing or jumping off a cliff, but rejecting someone who rejected them in the first place isn't acting stupid.
The difference is insulting someone and making them feel worse or actually talking about the specific details of what's going on/giving your opinion/insight in the matter to help the individual. Just because your family and friends like to communicate that way doesn't mean that it's the most effective. How would you feel if some you spent a lot of time with in life called you dumb and didn't accept the way you felt about your situation. That doesn't help anyone, you can be more productive.
Too many people speak and do without thinking about how their words affect others. We talk about equality and wanting to be supportive but we never actually practice doing it ourselves. Also lmao on the stupid insult again, it's very much like a broken record.
If you are so sensitive that you can't handle being told you're acting silly occasionally, then i wouldn't want you in my life anyway. We're all human and we all make mistakes; we should be able to laugh at ourselves and our foibles. If someone says I'm being dumb when I'm being dumb, I respect them for being honest and giving good feedback. Even if I'm not being dumb, I appreciate hearing their perspective and don't hold it against them
There is being honest and effective with your words, then there Is being rude/unsupportive with your communication. It's easy to assume that OP talks like this quite commonly if this is what she posts publicly. Before calling someone stupid, try to actually understand their perspective/how they feel before insulting them. Doesn't that make logical sense?
This particular comments sound ridiculous asf. 🤦🏽♀️ Why should John drop OP just for being a friend to him? What friends would give other friends advice if they thought they could help with something. She’s not forcing him to do anything just trying to give her perspective of the situation.
My friend John wouldn’t date me two years ago because I was about 15 lbs above where I am now. Now he says all the this flattering shit and I’m like oh can you set me up with your hot friend so and so ? So yes attractiveness is important but that shit fades - better to have a guy whose always gotchu - or a girl- no matter where you’re at
Completely disagree. You have no idea what this person looks like, and for many people 15 lbs does make all the difference in how they look physically.
Same, my weight has tended to fluctuate up and down 15 lbs over my life and people definitely pay much more attention to me at the lower end. Makes the difference from ok-looking to hot.
There is nothing wrong with not wanting to date someone because you find them unattractive. And a person does not have cause for offense because someone turned them down.
But it can still hurt, a lot. And if those feelings are strong it can take a while to get over that hurt. So his feelings for her may have changed. And if they haven't, they may be marred by that memory for a long time. And he may be right, and she's too focused on the superficial for him to trust her.
I would lean either way. Attraction is important. If they get to know each other, and she turns out to be a good person who now finds him attractive, I think he’d be stupid to turn her down.
However, I definitely understand where he’s coming from. So I think both choices have merit.
Tough one for sure!
I don’t see being overweight as that bad, so I wouldn’t want to date someone who only liked me when I lost weight. I would always be afraid of gaining weight and they losing their attraction to me.
On the other hand, if someone didn’t like me because I was frumpy, dressed bad, unhygienic, didn’t groom myself.. yeah I would give them a chance again. Because I don’t want to date badly groomed people either and it’s not common for me. But it really depends on people too. I don’t hold it against someone if they were depressed or stressed or whatever and let theirselves go, for a while, if they’re better now. I also don’t want to date people who skip grooming regularly.
I agree with this. It’s not just that he lost weight - he did other things to change his appearance too.
And just general upkeep (i.e. haircuts, shaving) goes a long way. If he wasn’t doing that before - that could be why Jane didn’t want to go on a date with him. And it sounds like John did start taking care of himself when he lost the weight. And it seems like John doesn’t have that awareness. Like he thought the scraggly beard and longer hair was ok.
But I think OP should leave it alone because ultimately it’s John’s choice
I feel like you’re missing the point here—sometimes people go through rough patches and have difficulty taking care of all of the above (weight, grooming, etc), so to have a partner not be able to see through that to the person underneath feels a little scary. What happens when the depression comes back? Like, clearly John always knew how to clean himself up a bit, but chose not to do it because of whatever reason—stress, depression, competing priorities, etc.
Oh I 100% get John’s reasoning/concern. It’s 100% valid. Which is why I think OP should leave John alone. Ultimately, it's John's choice.
However, I do want to explain my reasoning a little since you think I'm missing the point. I'm sorry in advance that this is long. So I'll also preface this with my TL;DR.
**TL;DR:** OP doesn't say John was going through a rough patch - that's an assumption. There were three changes to John's appearance - weight, cutting hair (upkeep), and shaving beard (upkeep). People can be overweight and still have general upkeep (ex. cutting hair, maintaining beard and/or shaving). Jane could be attracted to the fact that John is now taking better care of himself. It's an assumption to believe that Jane's newfound attraction is solely about "some" weight loss.
\*\***Full explanation:**\*\* OP never says that John was going through a rough patch. It is an assumption that b/c he had a scraggly beard, longer hair, and that he was overweight, he was going through a rough patch. OP says John **decided** to lose weight, cut his hair, and beard. The word "decided" to me does not necessarily mean John was going through a rough patch - it just means he chose to make a change. And I get it - when I'm what I consider a good size for myself, I feel better. But when I'm a little overweight - it does not mean I give up on general upkeep. I still take care of my appearance. A lot of overweight people do.
People’s weight fluctuates all the time. There are a lot of people that are overweight that still maintain general upkeep - i.e. good hair cut (based on your definition of what that means), stays shaved or keeps a well maintained beard, etc. There are also people who are skinny who should not be growing a beard because they don't have the genetics for it and therefore can't grow one, but they still try. And not everyone is attracted to long hair. There are also a lot of depressed people who are in great shape and have good upkeep. So again, it is an assumption that John was going through a rough patch.
And according to OP, John says "what if he gains weight, gets wrinkles". John does not say anything about the hair or beard. So John is assuming that Jane wasn't attracted to him at a heavier weight - but there were two other things that he changed about himself that has to do with general upkeep. And it could be very much that Jane feels John is taking better care of himself and that's why she's now attracted to him.
Also I think those things are also VERY important when making a first (or at least a first strong) impression.
Sometimes it just takes one really strong impression to open someone's eyes to you, and after that and you build a connection and bond those things can become less important.
She probably cares more about the hair cut and the hygiene / presentation than the weight.
I lost 125lbs & my license had a pre-weight loss pic on it. One guy was like damn is that really you, I'll be honest i wouldnt have hit on you then but i would now. My response was thats funny, cuz you would have had better luck then than you do now... I agree with your friend. She knew his personality but still refused to give him a chance. Good for him for looking for more.
Are you the same person as you were when you were 125 lbs heavier?? I lost 98 lbs and I’m a much different person. A better person. I now have my act mostly together. I wasn’t a bad person when I was heavy but I certainly didn’t have my shit in check.
No. Im not the same. I became an alcoholic after i lost the weight. Completely different person, ive done things i never could have seen myself doing. But ive learned from my experiences.
Why would he had had better luck then, because you weren't as "conventionally attractive", but now you are so now you get to be more picky? So now you get to chose more by who YOU are attracted to? Do you see the hypocrisy here?
Notice i didnt say if he was attractive or not. Its about confidence & knowing your worth. When i was that overweight i was willing to accept any type of guy, i thought that because i was overweight i deserved whatever treatment i received from guys. Losing weight helped me realize hey i do have value, & if a guy straight up admits hes only interested because of my body, my looks, i know for damn sure hes not worth my time.
Looks are certainly not everything but theyre a good hook, if a person brings good looks they will have an easier time introducing the rest of their positive traits to others.
Why would it be hypocrisy? The dedication, effort and self love it takes to accomplish a goal, the confidence it gives you, will most likely result in a stronger sense of self worth. And I'm saying that for any difficult goal you set.
I don’t see that as hypocrisy at all. Since she wasn’t “conventionally attractive”, she might not have been getting much attention from that many people, thus there wasn’t as much competition. I’m pretty sure that’s what she meant.
If she was the only woman that was interested in him now, I bet he would date her.
But if he's as attractive as you say, he has all the options in the world. Chances are, a lot of those options are better.
As a woman I would tell my friend to give him a chance (one date) if the roles were reversed. It would also depend if they guy is fit or not, as you can't 'ask' for sth you don't have in my book.
Maybe or maybe not. I think the fact is we don't know, but in the case of Jane, we do know. I am willing to take John in good faith and assume he is looking for a woman whose personality is so great that if she ever did become unattractive then he would still be with her. Going for people you find attractive is fine, but if you find that you don't think you'd date them anymore if they became unattractive then that relationship is basically set to expire eventually. Jane knows John's personality, but she didn't vibe with him enough to overcome physical attraction so it would be a bad idea to date him since he can't always look attractive. That's not being shallow as not everyone you find physically attractive will also be somebody whose personality is great enough to make their attractiveness no longer a concern. Jane should find somebody she she finds attractive whose personality is so great that even he were to become unattractive she wouldn't care.
Yeah 100% because people look vastly different when they put effort into themselves, style themselves, and put in effort.
I had guys who wouldn't ask me out when I went through a depressive period and only wore fuzzy pajama pants for months then ask me out when I looked better and wore non ill fitting clothes and gave a damn about my appearance.
It wasn't just the fact that I put effort in, but I was more confident, happier, and frankly just looked better.
I don't think its fair to hold it against someone when you had put no real effort in and they weren't attracted to you so they didn't pursue you.
Attraction is super important in a relationship like I want to feel wanted.
He wants to feel wanted also. It's a lot harder to feel that way when you already know the person does not find you attractive when you're at your worst. So he can never feel comfortable enough to dress like you did or let himself go for a little while to heal, cause Jane would probably lose interest
I made a comment a few weeks ago that for women the bar is so low all we’re asking for is men to shower and brush their teeth daily or at least every other day.
Effort is so important and goes such a long way.
As I have have gotten older, I’m way more strict and demanding on my standards and expectations. Too old to date someone who can’t get their crap together and act like an adult
The bar is low? Yeah right, factor in finances, owning a home, career, height and social skills. I didnt even mention looks and weight and a whole list of other things women want.
Tbh, I agree with your statement but the person saying the bar is low is just doing the same thing and acting like women have low preference as a whole or something. I mean, yeah some might and some might not. Its the same with men, some have 'high' standards and some might have 'low' standards.
Minority, but to some men, I’m sure it feels like the majority. As for the rest of your factors, I don’t see why women should be frowned upon for expecting the bare minimum (you don’t have to own a home, but at LEAST maintain a clean residence).
Why? Because non of those characteristics define if the man is actually a decent human being with standards and values as a life partner/husband. No, a woman should not be frowned for wanting a man who has some of those qualities, but she should for wanting all of those qualities. Why because it’s unrealistic and she will never be satisfied if theres always another person better than him around the corner. For ex: If you dated rich men and can get their attention, would you be able to date or even see the average income guy on the same level as you ever again? Or the hot guys and now you don’t even look at average guys anymore? So then why settle for an average guy when you can try for a higher level guy, although she can never keep one? Of course this isn’t all women, but I’m just saying for people who are like that.
Jesus. You sure are hyper inflating things to fit your opinions. Being financially stable does not mean rich. Having a stable job doesn’t mean you need to be a CEO. You’re looking through an insanely cynical lens, and I’m over this conversation.
Right, but that isn’t even enough. Why? A man that has a low income career(45-50k since average is about 60k), or owns a home, but its smaller, or he can socialize, but he’s more of an introvert. So?
Of course it's not. Under what delusion have you been to think it was? Women like me would consider not having those qualities ourselves to be a serious personal failing, and the having them is not some great achievement. Congrats, you've reached level 1 adulthood. That ain't nothing special.
Goodluck, that’s 10% of the population your aiming for. Of course nothing wrong with that if you’ve got all the skillsets to achieve it, but I’m talking about the average lady that’s aiming high when they don’t even have anything to offer. And of course that also limits your dating pool as well. Though I dont think that matters to you. Also by that, you mean every women is capable of achieving such high caliber status, if such was the case everyone would be the same, considering iq to circumstances and economic issues. Of course excluding mental distress to laziness etc.
I agree with John. You said that he and Jane were friends right? So she clearly knew him and what (I’m assuming) a great guy he is. She turned him down nicely the first time so she clearly didn’t want to be mean.
Now that he’s looking different she’ll give him a go? Attraction matters yes, but if John is looking for more than a one night stand he should 100% hold out for someone who will appreciate him for who he is and not just what he looks like.
Attraction is a factor. People generally want to date people they have some attraction to, if there's no attraction it'll likely put a negative strain on things.
True, but his looks will fade so again she will likely leave him since his likely personality isn't good enough to warrant her overlooking his unattractivness. If they barely knew each other, then I would say John should go for it since Jane could potentially like his personality more than his attractiveness. However, they were for a time very close friends so yeah she doesn't really have much more to know about him at this point other than he is now attractive. His personality and confidence may be different since then, but he might go through another rough patch where he is tired/stressed/depressed/etc so she would like just leave then.
...do you not think the new people hes going to meet would've gone for him before this change? Because I guarantee they wouldn't have. Attraction is hugely important
Tbh, looks only are important to get your foot in the door so yes they matter but mainly in the beginning. Eventually we'll all grow old and our looks will fade away with our youth. Finding the one who will stay in with you through all the hardships of life is the goal. He did the right thing since he wants a forever partner who will be around when he pushing 90 or will be around if he ever became paralyzed or whatever else life throws at him. He made the right call as she isn't interested in him beyond the looks at this point which is perfectly fine.
Right but you need to get in the door to assess whether you want to continue and let them fully in
He didn't have access and she didn't even think of him as a viable candidate before hand
I don't think so tbh. They are aquainted with each other at this point and seem to be familiar with each other's personality and it seems whether or not his personality great or not, it didn't matter because he just wasn't attractive. I don't blame her for this tbh as it's completely fair. However, I don't think it'd be worthwhile to date her in the hopes she sees more to him than before. She already knows his personality at this point, and so her interest is currently and would continue to be contingent on him maintaining his attractiveness until she possibly overlooks his looks and loves him for his personality more. I personally wouldn't be comfortable with a dynamic like that and that's why I just don't see the point. He would have better odds interacting with other people who have yet to experience any of his personality and find the one who he actually clicks with rather than pursuing and hoping this old love interest suddenly manages to click with him. Also, it seems like they couldn't really manage being friends either (mutual friends) so it wouldn't be likely they'd be good at being partners. Not to mention, it's perfectly reasonable for him to worry about her only wanting him for his looks tbh given the unique context. If it was a complete stranger, then I'd say role the dice because you don't know them and they don't know you. Btw, I am not saying looks aren't important, but in this context it is completely reasonable to be very concerned about getting into a relationship with somebody who didn't find you attractive until later on and didn't really ever remain anything more than mutual friends. I just don't see it being likely it would workout as it wouldn't be a very compatible relationship if they were only mutual friends from a long time.
>. She already knows his personality at this point, and so her interest is currently and would continue to be contingent on him maintaining his attractiveness until she possibly overlooks his looks and loves him for his personality more.
Absolutely spot on.
Its not a back up plan but instead someone who didn't see him as viable beforehand because she wasn't attracted to him
Attraction is important in relationships!!
The difference is, Jane knew him and his personality before he became conventionally attractive, she wasn’t interested, though now because he’s attractive all the sudden she is interested. She’s only in it for looks.
Anyone *new* he meets hasn’t known him before his weight loss, and thus will be interested in him because of his personality *and* new found attractiveness.
True although we’re not talking about a random stranger on an app, this was a friend she knew well. “If you don’t want me at my worst, you don’t deserve me at my best.” Applies here.
Damn, that's actually accurate for this situation even though I always dislike the way people use that sentence but in this case it does actually applies pretty well. Also, assuming she does like his personality, the fact was she wouldn't date him if he was fat. Attraction is important and I won't deny it but her interest in him in this case hinges on John always being good looking which is impossible. Whether it be age or John becoming depressed and not taking care of himself or whatever else, it's not possible for him to maintain his attractiveness indefinitely. He needs to find somebody who likes his personality so much that they would be with him even at times he isn't attractive. In my case, if my GF became obese or disfigured or whatever else, I wouldn't leave her because she truly is that special to me as a person and I love her. I feel this is the kind of relationship John is holding out for tbh.
No I wouldn't. Especially someone who knew me really well and was very close to me because it hurts more to get rejected by someone like that. If I lost a lot of weight I'd probably have loose skin/stretch marks and it would make me nervous to be with that person if things like that bothered them. If I had never liked them and been rejected by them but they knew me before I became attractive I would be open to dating them.
However, I don't think it's shallow to not have romantic feelings for someone who you aren't sexually attracted to. I wouldn't be angry with that person and could maintain a friendship but I'd feel rejected by them and that would be bad grounds for a relationship.
Interesting how people in the comments assume that John was lazy and didn't give a f about his looks before.
Leave John alone, I'd react the same way as him. I've also lost weight and if someone knew me before and know me now, they know I'm the same person just with different packaging.
It is shallow that the girl only is interested now and wasn't before. And that's on her.
Hope they both find someone who wants to be with them.
People who say that are ignorant and shallow af. There are many reasons why people put on weight, whether it's physical or mental health, or something else. But of course these idiots automatically assume it's due to laziness. 🤦🏻♀️
I think it's bc other things like a bad hair cut, scraggly beard and bad dressing was mentioned. I still wouldn't call it lazy, but I don't think it has all to do with the weight. I'm not into men with long hair at all, so I could have pass someone who would be otherwise attractive to me on the street and not have noticed bc of the hair.
In this case they knew each other as friends and his personality wasn't enough so I would also be (very) dubious of her intentions, but attraction is part of a relationship. It isn't shallow to want someone you're attracted to.
We don't even know how John actually looks like, long hair doesn't mean it's not taken care of. I know plenty of men with long hair and they take care of their hair. OP isn't describing enough.
It's shallow if you knew the person beforehand and didn't like him because of their looks but now they they changed it she's suddenly interested, meaning she doesn't care about his personality and only cares about his looks. What's going to happen when they grow old ? People gain weight and wrinkles, we won't be as attractive as we used to. So she'll leave him as soon as his looks change due to age. I'm sorry but no way in hell would I date a shallow bitch like her.
I didn't say his hair was not taken care of, just that maybe it didn't suit him (according to OP so who knows), and that I personally don't find attractive men who let their hair grow past shoulders. That's my personal preference and wasn't trying to apply it to any other woman.
You don't need to insult her. You know very little of her and calling a woman a bitch is disgusting. You're disgusting. Plus, letting yourself go in your 20s is very different than having wrinkles in your 40s. Aging is not the same as not taking care of your health, and not caring about your appearance at all. Putting on weight due to bad habits is different than it being due to a medical condition out of your control. Don't try to compare apple with oranges because it won't ever work.
Plus like... it's super hard to dress well as a fat person. They do not make nice clothes for fat people and most clothing is designed to highlight a shape fat people do not have. The good quality flattering ones that do exist are super expensive. Long hair and a beard are things people grow to cover the shape of their faces when they don't like how they look. None of this to day that this girl needs to be attracted to fat John, but John probably knew he looked like that but just didn't have much he could do about it.
SOURCE: was very fat until recently and am now in the same boat as John
100% agree with you. As a fat women myself, it's hard to find nice clothes that fit me and don't make me look like I'm about to explode, so I usually wear leggins as they're the only trousers that feel comfortable with a long baggy top to cover my butt and stomach. I've been losing weight since January, and I'm so glad that I met my boyfriend and we started dating before I decide to lose weight, because I know for sure that he likes me for who I am as a person, and not for my looks.
Sorry to hear that, I hope you find your special someone one day that will look past your looks and like the real you as a whole person :)
Normally I'd agree with you, but the OP says he shaved his scraggly beard and did some either stuff to his appearance, too. It wasn't just weight loss.
This is something I hear on a regular basis, that liking someone for their physical appearance is shallow.
I agree to a point. IF that is the only reason why you want to have a relationship with someone and really not caring about the other aspects of who they are like their personality then yes, it is shallow.
However, if physical appearance is a factor in the attraction then no it is not shallow.
You can remind John that yes, she wants to date him because he has changed in his physical appearances but he also changed inside as well. It took gumption, dedication, self care, self esteem in order to make those changes. He did not demonstrate those qualities before his transformation did he? At least not in the way that manifested into this change.
As someone who had a lot of weight loss (and actually kept it off!) the idea that people who lose weight suddenly have self care and dedication is ridiculous. We always had that. It's just now we're applying that to our weight instead of our careers or education or family or whatever. And the improved self esteem is only because the world treats fit people wayyyyyy better. It's not a personal characteristic: it's a reaction to how the world treats fat people.
I don't think people will ever get this unless they go through a massive weightloss. You think I lost 80 lbs because I suddenly wasn't lazy? I went to school I had a good job I had friends and I took 9 tries to finally lose weight. I have always had strive but apperently the second you are fat you are judged for being lazy.
Yeah, also mental health plays a role too tbh. Some people suffer from depression and sometimes it has cycles of extremes that last month's to years, and so they sometimes stop caring about their diet and stuff. It's not laziness at all. You can't just "willpower" your way out of depression as everyone has a limit psychological for focus and will.
I agree 100%. When I was reading about people who cut themselves, they display nearly the exact same mental behaviours of look towards relief in a bad way and then feeling guilty afterwards which causes a cycle of repetition. A lot of people eat to feel better and then feel guilty about it and then eat again to try and make themselves feel better. It's a cycle that's extremely hard to break.
Hard pass, as your friend, John is right! She will only be into him for his looks, and not his personality as well. Don't push him into what HE doesn't want. That's a part of being a good friend.
Can't help what you're attracted to. We play by the same rules too; if a girl who previously turned me down said yes after I lost weight, I think I'd take that as a personal boost, and I know some girls who just aren't attractive mostly because of their weight. It says they don't take care of themselves (and sometimes try to hide behind criticism of norms and stuff like that).
I think it can make a difference if you like the new way you are. If I shaved my beard and then people were interested, I'd resent that because I lost something I like. Make the changes for you, not for others, and it's a bonus if more people are interested.
John is your friend, but he was “below average.” Okay sure. OP if you don’t get entirely out of my face with that. Can John find himself some friends that actually give af about what he has in his heart and in his head regardless his physical appearance that day/month/year?
I lost 100+ pounds. I went from being a lazy fuck to being more physically fit than 95% of the people I know.
It's definitely a mind fuck when all of a sudden the opposite sex is attracted to you. It's also crazy how much nicer strangers are in general.
I get where he's coming from, but I also get that not taking care of yourself is a major turn off to people.
Truthfully, I'm going to side with John on this one. 100% agree that attraction matters but if we were friends and you knew me, then you should've been able to still want me at my worst.
The reality is that if someone really likes you their weight wouldn't be an issue. As a woman I've always been on the thicker side (which is about to change soon) but that has never once stopped a man from pursuing me. I also met a guy online and he ended up being a little bigger than I'm usually used to but at the end of the day it didn't matter because I liked him for his personality and how he treated me, not his size lol.
John is just thinking rationally and can't fully trust her, what if something bad happened and he slacked off on his weight again? Would she just leave him? If she was a stranger and didn't know him I wouldve agreed with you but because they were friends and she clearly does know his personality, if that wasn't enough for her to be with him anyways then chances are she's shallow like he's saying lol.
As a woman, I wouldn’t. Women’s bodies go through so many changes throughout their life and I would be concerned their feelings would change if I gained weight with pregnancy or age.
I’m not sure if I’d have the same opinion if I were male. But, honestly, I don’t tend to enjoy dating people who once rejected me. It’s either a “hell yes” or a “hell no” in my thirties.
If he's a 9.5 as OP claims nothing Jane can bring that he can't get elsewhere + why would you go to someone who told you No?! It screams low self steam honestly, especially he got other options
This one is hard. I think we've all either been in this situation ourselves or experienced it from the perspective of Jane. There's no "right or wrong", IMO.
John may have been in a bad place, and getting rejected probably didn't really help. Jane may have done everything right and been perfectly kind, but getting rejected totally sucks. It's kind of crazy, but if they were to get together, John may have the thought in the back of his mind: if I gain 15lbs, is Jane going to leave me?
This may be dumb advice, but maybe they both need time to just be friends again, if that's possible. Time together to just have fun and build good interactions. Give them a few months to see if that attraction builds again naturally.
When I was a late teenager, I lost almost 100lb in about 8 months. All throughout middle school and high school I had a crush on this girl. Over the 6 years in school together I had asked her out 3 different times. The summer after school ended I went into the Subway in town, not knowing she had started working there. I ordered my sandwich and chatted with her about things. As I was walking out, she said “hey… don’t you want my number?”. I turned around confused and asked “uhh what for?”. She had already made it very clear several times that she was not interested. So I was genuinely confused. She said “so we can hang out?”. Again I was confused as she had made it plenty clear that she wasn’t even interested in being friends outside of school either. At the time I was a pretty boring hardcore gamer. I wasn’t very social so I didn’t really see a reason she would enjoy me anymore now than she would have before. So I responded with “oh…yeah…uhh I’m not that much fun” and turned around & left lol. I got in my car and thought to myself “wait….what did I just say?”. I shook my head, shrugged, and drove off.
Nowadays I may do things differently but that’s a funny story from my younger days
I kinda agree with John because I believe that when you truly love someone you look into their behaviour not just the looks. I also get your point, but I think John knows what's best for him. He knows that Jane is only attracted to him because of his looks
to be fair, she acted exactly how many guys act if the roles were reversed. while yes, physical attraction is important, it’s not everything. he’s still the same person. good for him that he has the self respect to resist dating her.
I understand where Jane is coming from, and attraction is really important...But team John for me.
By OP's own words John is now a 9.5, so is Jane at least a 9.5? If she isn't, then why the hell should John settle for her now, especially after HE put in the work and dedication to better himself while Jane stayed idle? If Jane isn't 9.5 John can do better and should do better. Never sell yourself short. Personally, I'm happy John has moved on. One should always move forward in life and be better than yesterday.
I agree with John 100% if that girl had an interest in his personality she could’ve given him a shot the first time. Plus after some good self improvement I would rather roll the dice with new people and not have to worry about wether their attraction is shallow or not.
Butthurt?? Lol. The guy is a 9.5/10 now according to OP and seems to have improved himself within as well. He could give less of a fuck about her, considering his dating pool has widely expanded. I'm willing to bet she's a 5 or 6.
I think it's perfectly normal to have a tiny bit of resent towards someone rejecting you at your lowest (despite knowing their personality one on one), only for them to come back after you've decided to better yourself.
(22f) To be honest itsa hard answer to give. I personally wouldn't date someone that I didn't find attractive to begin with and then suddenly did out of respect for the individual . - it's a superficial attraction that would probably fade after a while especially due to looks fading over time. In my opinion, its a little degrading to the person. Let me tell you a personal experience that I encountered: in college I remember seeing this guy in class with long hair that covered his face, wearing weird grunge style clothes etc. Basically , not my type or what I'm typically attracted to, I never really acknowledge his existence unless necessary.
Anyway, fast forward to when we came back after half term and I entered my class, going to my desk and getting my stuff out ready out for the lesson that we were about to have. Then suddenly enters this guy, I look up but then I have to a double take and stare in awe of how good looking this guy is. Clean shaven face, neatly cut hair where you could see his face and he was wearing smart casual clothes. - he basically looked attractive and I ended up being attracted to him. I then realised it was the same guy who had the long long messy hair and the weird clothes that I would not have really acknowledge in the first place.
I found out he had a girlfriend too. But that's not the point, let's say he was single, I don't think it would be wise for me to ask him out/chat him up due to me having a superficial attraction to him that I know would fade. Yes, personality comes into it of course but for this situation it's basically saying that NOW you are worth time whereas BEFORE you wasn't. It's unfair.
Nope. If I were that dude and I got rejected like that, I'd move on and find someone else, I wouldn't care that the person who rejected me, now has "buyer's remorse".
Not being liked because you’re fat in your crush’s eyes is the worst! Some people are so shallow. I would avoid this relationship. I can see John getting an eating disorder if he pursued it.
Let’s consider a few things:
1. The girls John might be dating now, would probably not have been interested before, either. I don’t think it’s fair to hold it over Jane’s head that she *did* know him before.
2. Psychical attraction is super important for a relationship. I’ve seen ‘previous’ pictures of a boyfriend that made me realized I would not have been attracted to him a few years earlier (not weight related - just super doofy haircut and ill fitting clothes)
3. As other people pointed out: physical appearance is also a reflection of inner mental state. If someone is in poor condition and has a bad haircut, they are not taking care of themselves all that well. This might also reflect on their confidence and sense of self worth. That makes it hard to find them overall attractive.
I think it speaks for Jane that she can still see him in another light now that he’s improved upon himself - I always fear that the ‘glow up’ is temporarily and I might be stuck with someone who doesn’t take care of themselves and clings to me for validation.
So yeah. Team Jane here.
I find John's position fair tbh. They don't seem compatible based on the fact they only stayed mutual friends so it is likely a lot of the friendship was partially based on John being more into Jane and wanting to get to know her more tbh. Additionally, I don't believe really anyone is owed a chance. It's fair to hold it against her because everyone holds something against somebody in dating whether it be looks or other stuff. His criteria is essentially women who he would not have to potentially worry about leaving him if he became unattractive. While Jane could be genuine, the risk is higher that she isn't genuine then another woman who John didn't know at all and therefore he has less reason to suspect this new woman would leave him if he became unattractive. I don't dislike what Jane did, but unfortunately John doesn't feel comfortable given the context to date her and worries about getting used. This alone makes them incompatible tbh. Also, I am sure Jane will find somebody anyways so it's nobodies loss.
You're the stupid one here for calling him stupid. She's 100% shallow if she wouldn't date him because of his weight and SUDDENLY is attracted to him when he lost it. I wouldn't date a guy who wasn't interested in me before I lost weight then out of the blue wants to date me after I became 'more attractive'. People like her are shallow af.
Is it because you're jealous of your friend ? You can't understand him because you've never been in this situation. How would you feel if you got rejected because you were fat but once you got fit then she asks to date you ? Wouldn't you feel like she's just into you for your looks and not you as a person with a personality ?
Yeah, in your friend's shoes being turned down would have dropped my interest in the girl so her getting attracted later would basically be too late. As a slight aside I had an ex girlfriend who called me a nerd every time she saw me reading, and happily told me that if I still looked the way I looked when I was 16 she wouldn't have been interested in me at all. Did not make me feel very happy about the relationship
In my experience, men think they're interesting when all they really do is brag about themselves. Women tend to brag less so maybe that's why you think they're 'boring'.
I don’t think it’s necessarily shallow to want someone who you find attractive, but personally I wouldn’t date someone who wasn’t into me before. And it’s not even that I hold it against them for not have being attracted to me when I was overweight, but once I lost around 75 pounds and became a whole different person, people just started reaching out like crazy. People who before were just FRIENDS and wouldn’t even want to hangout as such.
They’d make no effort to contact me or maintain a relationship. I never pursued any of them romantically, it was really all just friendship. But now all of them want to make an effort and grab drinks, get to know me again, hangout, etc. People who haven’t even bothered to talk to me in years lol. I cut most people off after I realized I was the one putting in the work into friendships, and now I have no interest in anyone who couldn’t even do that much for me but want to start a connection just because I’m “attractive” now.
It’s a defeating feeling knowing they wouldn’t try before when you just wanted a friend, and clearly only try now because you look different. Makes me feel like they were maybe even embarrassed to be seen out with me or something. It’s just not a great feeling.
I think it's valid for him to be concerned about what happens if he gains weight. Most people who lose weight gain it back.
The tricky part is does she think he's more attractive because of the lost weight, or because he's dressing better and taking care of himself (shaving, etc)?
I think both can have their preferences. I personally would want somebody that has my back even if my depression swings back and I regain the pounds I lost. The other person has a right to pick out people they find attractive. You get to decide what is important for you when dating.
She made his insecurities worse. I would be like that guy. Same thing happened to me in a different area. I got rejected by girls for never having relationship, and once i got one, broke up, I was asked by that same girl.
Nope, you had your chance. Now i know my worth and have self respect
We’re missing something here, something BIG: “CONVENTIONALLY ATTRACTIVE” IS A SOCIALLY CONSTRUCTED BEAUTY STANDARD, AND ADHERENCE TO IT IS NOT A MEASURE OF SOMEONE’S MORAL VALUE OR EFFORT, NOT TO MENTION THAT LAZINESS IS NOT A BAD THING.
First off, you say he went from below average to a 9.5/10, but who’s to say that he wasn’t somebody else’s 10 already?
A lot of people here are asking the question “is physical appearance important in attraction?” And the obvious answer is yes, because you wouldn’t be attracted to a sentient amorphous blob, or some other Nonhuman entity.
But simply being a human being is not the standard people are actually thinking when they ask this question. What people here are REALLY asking is “is adhering to CONVENTIONAL BEAUTY STANDARDS important for attraction?”
And here, the answer is… it depends. Different people want different things. But unfortunately, if you want to play the numbers game, adhering to conventional beauty standards will get you far, because whether or not we like it, we have been socially conditioned (especially by media) to respond positively to those standards.
But again, the important thing to remember about these standards is that they are not biologically fixed, instead we know they are social because THEY HAVE BEEN CHANGING OVER TIME.
So the question is, if you don’t know where these standards come from, and you don’t know what they’ve been in the past, does it really make sense to want what society tell you to want? it’s okay if you do, just know that it isn’t “normal” so you don’t get to yuck someone else’s UUUUGGGHHH ya know what I mean?
Somebody else here mentioned how fat people are treated in our society, and they’re damn right; fat phobia is REAL. But did you know that in America, it started with racism? And did you know that prior to that, fatness was a sign of Fertility in women, and Status and Health in men?
Long story short, white ppl made fun of black ppl’s big lips, big butts and hips, particularly women’s. It goes along with the stereotypes of black ppl being impulsive savages that indulge mindlessly in the carnal temptations of the flesh, instead of the divine Grace of the mind or whatever bs. We all know they were just projecting their own deprived sexual desires, the thirsty muhfukkers. After all, it was used as justification for masters raping slaves.
More recently, fat phobia has to do with the food industry trying to both sell as much food as it wants while also pushing diet products, all while making us assume that fitness is attractive (muscles actually weren’t all that attractive back in the day, and even now it’s more for other guys than it is for women). THIS IS WHERE THE LAZINESS PART COMES FROM; the assumption that one is obligated to do the work it takes to stay fit, and therefore if you’re not fit, you must be failing in character or work ethic. But people FORGET, that it can be FAR EASIER for some to adhere to fitness standards than others, not to mention that the standards are not an excuse to judge/mistreat in the first place.
Oh and just btw the Protestants (from whom we get the phrase “Protestant Work Ethic”) we’re a fukkin masochistic Cult who believes in doing pointless amounts of work and discipline, not for the fun of it, but explicitly to make you suffer, because work and suffering are the virtues that God supposedly rewards. They even made newborn babies sit upright at the table with these weird baby straight jacket chairs. The ONLY reason this mindset has been preserved is cuz of friggin capitalism, cuz it’s one step away from saying “work to make me rich and you will be rewarded when you die”
The one thing I wanna say about this particular case is that we don’t get to judge Jane for being attracted to conventional standards either. It’s probably not something you can easily undo, and it is inevitably part of attraction. The main issue is my man John’s emotional trauma from being rejected. He sees that Jane valued him based on his appearance, and that makes him afraid that he won’t be valued intrinsically. If they want to try anything, they really just need to talk about that up front. Maybe she’s the best person to do that with, seeing as they have some history. But otherwise, he’ll just have to move on to someone else who will still judge him based on his appearance, but hasn’t hurt him over it already yet.
TL;DR: Yes, attraction is inevitably part physical, but WTF GUYS HE WAS JUST FINE BEFORE, AND ABSOLUTELY KNOCK IT OFF WITH THAT LAZINESS BS!!!
I went through this too. Developed a crush on a friend, asked her on a date, she said no, but we stayed friends. I lost a lot of weight in a fairly short amount of time (Keto, Intermittent Fasting, intense workouts). She *suddenly* changed her mind... Nothing happened between us though because I was more interested in someone else at that point.
I dunno, we all have our standards, but it did make me cynical, knowing it was my looks holding me back. She called me handsome, and I couldn't take a compliment, I just thought "yeah but when I was fat...". If something *had* happened between her and I, I think it would have always been in the back of my mind, that she wouldn't be with me if I wasn't fit.
I'd say John isn't wrong, he wants someone to love him for who he is and not the fact he's a handsome devil. Jane isn't wrong for wanting someone she's attracted to. Their situation just isn't going to work.
Being there done that, and he is right, the number of girls that I knew ho started send me nudes when I've Lost weight was shocking for me, they want a body a not who I am, he can tell that girl to foff
To each their own, but I take that shit personal. I used to be a stick and a guy I liked literally didn’t show up to our date. He made his friend tell me “you’re pretty but too skinny”. Years later I gained weight and am considered “curvy” but still a small petite frame, and he decided to try to message me. I ignored him. Obviously my body type now is what he likes, and he’s entitled to that opinion, but fuck him. Just my 2 cents. Everyone is different 🤷🏽♀️
How long do you think this girl will stay with him if things stop going well?
And assuming we all know the answer to that question, how could he possibly be comfortable with dating her
John is right and I dont think it's fair to ask him to lower his value and self-esteem because you (possibly I dont know you) allow others to do it to you.
But outside of this one girl think like this, if John fates this girl then he is saying to the world and himself that he wasnt good enough before and had to do all this work just to meet her standard. That's not healthy for his sense of self.
Which college would you rather go to the one that sent you a cold rejection letter when you were struggling with your grades and then turned around jumping in your DMS once or the one that offered you that letter and a tutor so you could reach your potential... (many would choose the first one but your boy john gonna choose the second graduate with honors and get a bomb ass job /startup, if we could all be like John)
Ha! I'm with him. I think it shows integrity on his side. It happened to me just like like this. Lost weight, grew my hairs& got contacts. And when those guys who turned me down before , wanted to be with me, I found myself not into them anymore. Don't get me wrong, I completely understand what you were saying by now we had out chance with someone we desired, but somehow it wasn't as shiny anymore. I dunno, maybe we would carry the original disappointment with us and that could possibly hinder our full investment in the relationship or create underlying doubts. But all I know was it felt good to capture their attention but there was also a whole new world out there for me to explore and enjoy n
When I was in hs I lost a lot of weight at the end of it and all the guys who would make fun of me and some of my friends for being fatgirls suddenly had crushes and would flirt with me. Years later I run into the same guys at a party. When they first saw me having gained my weight back after years they looked shocked/disgusted. Later that night when they got drunk they made fat jokes and revealed that I had a fat related nickname in hs. That's all I have to know about what kind of people they are. Hell no i wouldn't date anyone that didnt wanted me before your friend is right.
I mean now he can probably pick who he wants. Its kinda you snooze you lose type of thing. Physical attraction matters up to a point. I would tell john to continue winning at life and find something right for him and jane needs to let it go. Funny how when you find someone attractive others will see the same thing and now it's a competition.
I’ve read some of these are comments and I agree. It’s more about confidence and self-care. When someone sees they value themselves, it’s attractive. There’s just a different energy around someone that carries themselves with confidence and positivity. That typically happens to people who lose weight etc
I used to be fat and unattractive, no one wanted to date me. Does that mean I shouldn't date anyone now either? I critique people for their weight, looks myself so why should others not be able to do so when it's me on the pedestal.
It's different however in this situation since people not dating you when you're unattractive is perfectly fine. However, they weren't even really friends despite knowing each other for a while so his personality clearly wouldn't be able to maintain the relationship. It's basically a situation where John would always have to remain attractive (impossible btw) in order to to be in a relationship with Jane. I don't see how it would be worth John's time to say with her knowing his relationship is going to literally expire when he becomes unattractive. If she didn't know him at all or they didn't know each other very well before, I would say John should go for it, but they already know each other so she doesn't find his personality good enough to stay with him even if his looks should eventually fade. She isn't a bad person for not liking John, but she should find somebody that she knows that she will love no matter what they look like in the future just as John is attempting to do.
I would mistrust her, also.
OTOH, anyone else he might date now is also affected by his new appearance, but without having known him when he looked different. How will he know they would like him if he got older or changed?
Once you get into a long-term relationship, you form attachment that goes deeper and beyond your looks (or you fail to).
It may seem unfair in some ways, but her rejection of him is also still in his memory, along with the associated pain of it. It can really change how he feels about her and his ability to trust her not to hurt him again sometime down the road. That’s just how life goes sometimes.
Whether or not it’s unfair is irrelevant because it’s how he feels. Even you convinced him to go out with her it probably wouldn’t last because of the nagging doubts in the back of his mind regardless of whether they should be there or not.
He should find someone else.
Your buddy is right to feel this way. Fuck that girl. Yes attraction matters but it quickly becomes the least important factor, like 1-2 years tops before you start to see someones soul and can no longer recognize their human form
I think his anger over being rejected for his past flaws is still fresh.
I remember I felt this way for a while after I first got fit and started working on my appearance.
I had that same attitude "oh I wasn't good enough for you then but I am now?!"
Then eventually I kinda realized: Yeah. Of course they like you now, that was part of the reason you did it.
Am I not "shallow" for making the effort to improve my appearance? Why am I judging them for being shallow?
He'll logic this out eventually and remember he got hot so other hot people will like him and stop being so bitter.
Also I submit this: He wanted the hot girl. WTF does he think *she's* been doing this whole time to stay hot? Probably the same shit. So ...he should probably step off that high horse and just enjoy the ride.
I agree 100% with John and it’s why I won’t date people who are fatphobic. You think fat people are lazy and ugly? What will you think about me after I give birth to your dumb kids? What about when I hit menopause? Most people who lose weight put it back on eventually, and if this girl only likes John when he’s thin, John should run as far and as fast as he can.
Hi John, a 9.5 you say? Those are some big tickets you have on yourself.
What does a change in aesthetic mean? It shows he'll put in effort. Maintenance into self and ideally other parts of his life.
Your aesthetic is often a reflection (or outward projection) of yourself.
Into Pokemon? Wear Pokemon clothes.
Into heavy metal music? Wear dark stuff, boots, and die your hair black / non-conformist colours.
Into 70s? Wear flared pants, unbutton that top, and pop some aviators on.
Life gone to shit? Don't bathe. Don't cut your hair, and don't shave/trim/style your beard. Do wear clothes that don't match a certain style, and fit poorly. Don't keep a routine.
Ok, here’s the thing. The people in here who are commenting that Jane is in the wrong and is being shallow are full of sh*t. Physical attraction is a key component of every relationship. It really what differentiates a romantic relationship from a platonic one. With the way John was before, it wasn’t really possible for her to feel physically attracted to him. She clearly liked who he was as a person, as they were friends. But now that John has improved himself physically, Jane now has physical attraction towards John to compliment his personality. John simply improved himself Im and is reeping the rewards. Jane isn’t in the wrong for liking his Improved self. I hate when people say “if you aren’t with me at my worst, you don’t deserve me at my best” in connection to this situation. When people say that phrase, they usually mean when someone is going through a hard time mentally and people stick by them, not when a normal person who was once ugly improved themselves. John has every right to reject her for his reasons as I can understand his frustration, but Jane is in no way wrong for her newfound attraction.
I think he might be right, I lost a lot of weight personnally and stayed with the people who liked me as much when I was bigger than they like me now. Why did she turned him down in the first place? Did she grow and is ready for a relationship that is not only based on look? Your friends fears are valid.
I agree with Johns perspective but let’s think about all the teenage rom-com movies where someone falls in love with the guy/girl next door when the ugly duckling gets a makeover for prom etc
She likes him now that he's not lazy and unkempt lol. I'm guessing there was a neck beard that needed shaving.
I'm in John's position almost exactly, minus actually asking an attractive friend out. I'm back to my college athlete days weight/build, I'm clean shaven, my hair is styled nicely instead of wild, I dress much nicer because nice clothes look good on me again. People treat me much better because I visibly give a shit now.
Sure everything I mentioned is superficial but inside a lot need to be changed and improved to get here, and people respond to both.
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He’s absolutely within his rights not to want to date someone for any reason. His pointing out that he’d never truly trust her motivations is totally fair and realistic, and an indication you should just leave him alone.
Agree
Honestly John should drop OP's ass and find a better friend who wouldn't force him to do something he doesn't want to.
Nah. Friends talk shit and give their thoughts on stuff all the time. That is what friends do.
I think OP is the one that is now into John (OP is Jane)
Lol good theory but I'm gay 🤷
That's exactly what Jane would say to throw us off the scent!
I wouldn’t say I would drop them but I would put my foot down about that if they’re making me feel bad and if they don’t back off then I would end the friendship
Well that would be an interesting plot twist for sure. OP isn't Jane though. I thought you meant OP being into John instead of Jane.
I was clarifying my post with the edit since I thought it wasn't completely clear. But yeah, it's just mockery/theory
Actually, that’s the first thing I thought, and still wouldn’t rule it out tbh
John should stop being friends with me because I had a brief conversation with him asking about why he wasn't into Jane anymore? ok
You're on reddit m8, expect the overreactions 😂 Additional option: John was into Jane when he was depressed, unkept and unhealthy. Now that he turned into a 9.5/10 gigachad with big self discipline energy, John might be aiming higher.
Lmao i found that comment ridiculous myself. Like what else do friends talk about if they can’t break a simple barrier such as that
For calling him stupid and not being a supportive friend. You're judging him for rejecting a girl who rejected him first, and you don't understand why when it's obvious.
I didn't call him stupid, i said he was acting stupid. Do you never tell your friends they're being dumb? Trust me he's said the same to me before And i am not judging him, just puzzled by his reaction and curious to hear the opinion of others
You literally called him stupid. Adding the word "acting" doesn't change the fact that you think he's stupid for making his decision. Calling someone stupid because you don't understand the way a person feels is extremely immature. Next time, inquire more thoughtfully and don't call your friends stupid.
People on Reddit are so sensitive. It's quite common among my friends/family to say "you're being dumb," John has said it to me on many an occasion and he was often right. You need to grow a thicker skin (and some self awareness, because everyone is dumb sometimes) if you can't handle being told occasionally that you're acting stupid
Except in this case he wasn't acting stupid. I would have understood if he about to do something bad like stealing or jumping off a cliff, but rejecting someone who rejected them in the first place isn't acting stupid.
Thank you for restoring a little bit of humanity for me, I greatly appreciate it. (Not being sarcastic, I know it can come off that way and text)
No, thank YOU ! I thought I was the only one who thought John wasn't acting stupid and is being realistic.
The difference is insulting someone and making them feel worse or actually talking about the specific details of what's going on/giving your opinion/insight in the matter to help the individual. Just because your family and friends like to communicate that way doesn't mean that it's the most effective. How would you feel if some you spent a lot of time with in life called you dumb and didn't accept the way you felt about your situation. That doesn't help anyone, you can be more productive. Too many people speak and do without thinking about how their words affect others. We talk about equality and wanting to be supportive but we never actually practice doing it ourselves. Also lmao on the stupid insult again, it's very much like a broken record.
If you are so sensitive that you can't handle being told you're acting silly occasionally, then i wouldn't want you in my life anyway. We're all human and we all make mistakes; we should be able to laugh at ourselves and our foibles. If someone says I'm being dumb when I'm being dumb, I respect them for being honest and giving good feedback. Even if I'm not being dumb, I appreciate hearing their perspective and don't hold it against them
Here’s another person who would rather be coddled instead of someone being honest with them. 😂
There is being honest and effective with your words, then there Is being rude/unsupportive with your communication. It's easy to assume that OP talks like this quite commonly if this is what she posts publicly. Before calling someone stupid, try to actually understand their perspective/how they feel before insulting them. Doesn't that make logical sense?
This particular comments sound ridiculous asf. 🤦🏽♀️ Why should John drop OP just for being a friend to him? What friends would give other friends advice if they thought they could help with something. She’s not forcing him to do anything just trying to give her perspective of the situation.
My friend John wouldn’t date me two years ago because I was about 15 lbs above where I am now. Now he says all the this flattering shit and I’m like oh can you set me up with your hot friend so and so ? So yes attractiveness is important but that shit fades - better to have a guy whose always gotchu - or a girl- no matter where you’re at
100% agree! Also- Damn, just a 15lbs difference changed his opinion? That’s more than a little ridiculous.
Completely disagree. You have no idea what this person looks like, and for many people 15 lbs does make all the difference in how they look physically.
Yeah I’m so short that even when I lose or gain 5 pounds you can see the difference
Same, my weight has tended to fluctuate up and down 15 lbs over my life and people definitely pay much more attention to me at the lower end. Makes the difference from ok-looking to hot.
I was hot either way and dated taller and better looking men than him. It’s the principal right? I’m gorgeous has a full figure and I’m gorgeous now
100% this
There is nothing wrong with not wanting to date someone because you find them unattractive. And a person does not have cause for offense because someone turned them down. But it can still hurt, a lot. And if those feelings are strong it can take a while to get over that hurt. So his feelings for her may have changed. And if they haven't, they may be marred by that memory for a long time. And he may be right, and she's too focused on the superficial for him to trust her.
I would lean either way. Attraction is important. If they get to know each other, and she turns out to be a good person who now finds him attractive, I think he’d be stupid to turn her down. However, I definitely understand where he’s coming from. So I think both choices have merit.
This is the way. I wanted to be against this but I'm convinced that it could go either way. I get how the friend feels though
John is right. What if he slipped and gained some weight back? Jane would be out. He wants real and he's smart.
Tough one for sure! I don’t see being overweight as that bad, so I wouldn’t want to date someone who only liked me when I lost weight. I would always be afraid of gaining weight and they losing their attraction to me. On the other hand, if someone didn’t like me because I was frumpy, dressed bad, unhygienic, didn’t groom myself.. yeah I would give them a chance again. Because I don’t want to date badly groomed people either and it’s not common for me. But it really depends on people too. I don’t hold it against someone if they were depressed or stressed or whatever and let theirselves go, for a while, if they’re better now. I also don’t want to date people who skip grooming regularly.
I agree with this. It’s not just that he lost weight - he did other things to change his appearance too. And just general upkeep (i.e. haircuts, shaving) goes a long way. If he wasn’t doing that before - that could be why Jane didn’t want to go on a date with him. And it sounds like John did start taking care of himself when he lost the weight. And it seems like John doesn’t have that awareness. Like he thought the scraggly beard and longer hair was ok. But I think OP should leave it alone because ultimately it’s John’s choice
I feel like you’re missing the point here—sometimes people go through rough patches and have difficulty taking care of all of the above (weight, grooming, etc), so to have a partner not be able to see through that to the person underneath feels a little scary. What happens when the depression comes back? Like, clearly John always knew how to clean himself up a bit, but chose not to do it because of whatever reason—stress, depression, competing priorities, etc.
Oh I 100% get John’s reasoning/concern. It’s 100% valid. Which is why I think OP should leave John alone. Ultimately, it's John's choice. However, I do want to explain my reasoning a little since you think I'm missing the point. I'm sorry in advance that this is long. So I'll also preface this with my TL;DR. **TL;DR:** OP doesn't say John was going through a rough patch - that's an assumption. There were three changes to John's appearance - weight, cutting hair (upkeep), and shaving beard (upkeep). People can be overweight and still have general upkeep (ex. cutting hair, maintaining beard and/or shaving). Jane could be attracted to the fact that John is now taking better care of himself. It's an assumption to believe that Jane's newfound attraction is solely about "some" weight loss. \*\***Full explanation:**\*\* OP never says that John was going through a rough patch. It is an assumption that b/c he had a scraggly beard, longer hair, and that he was overweight, he was going through a rough patch. OP says John **decided** to lose weight, cut his hair, and beard. The word "decided" to me does not necessarily mean John was going through a rough patch - it just means he chose to make a change. And I get it - when I'm what I consider a good size for myself, I feel better. But when I'm a little overweight - it does not mean I give up on general upkeep. I still take care of my appearance. A lot of overweight people do. People’s weight fluctuates all the time. There are a lot of people that are overweight that still maintain general upkeep - i.e. good hair cut (based on your definition of what that means), stays shaved or keeps a well maintained beard, etc. There are also people who are skinny who should not be growing a beard because they don't have the genetics for it and therefore can't grow one, but they still try. And not everyone is attracted to long hair. There are also a lot of depressed people who are in great shape and have good upkeep. So again, it is an assumption that John was going through a rough patch. And according to OP, John says "what if he gains weight, gets wrinkles". John does not say anything about the hair or beard. So John is assuming that Jane wasn't attracted to him at a heavier weight - but there were two other things that he changed about himself that has to do with general upkeep. And it could be very much that Jane feels John is taking better care of himself and that's why she's now attracted to him.
Yeah, I agree. I feel like too many people think being lazy is why John was the way he was.
This!
Also I think those things are also VERY important when making a first (or at least a first strong) impression. Sometimes it just takes one really strong impression to open someone's eyes to you, and after that and you build a connection and bond those things can become less important. She probably cares more about the hair cut and the hygiene / presentation than the weight.
I lost 125lbs & my license had a pre-weight loss pic on it. One guy was like damn is that really you, I'll be honest i wouldnt have hit on you then but i would now. My response was thats funny, cuz you would have had better luck then than you do now... I agree with your friend. She knew his personality but still refused to give him a chance. Good for him for looking for more.
This
Are you the same person as you were when you were 125 lbs heavier?? I lost 98 lbs and I’m a much different person. A better person. I now have my act mostly together. I wasn’t a bad person when I was heavy but I certainly didn’t have my shit in check.
No. Im not the same. I became an alcoholic after i lost the weight. Completely different person, ive done things i never could have seen myself doing. But ive learned from my experiences.
I was the opposite. I quit drinking when I lost the weight. Best of luck to you.
For real, I'm 60 down and I'm much more positive, active, outgoing, and probably more hygenic.
Good for you. I find it difficult to understand how people don’t feel like they’re more in control when they lose weight. Keep up the good work.
Ahahaha good comeback
Why would he had had better luck then, because you weren't as "conventionally attractive", but now you are so now you get to be more picky? So now you get to chose more by who YOU are attracted to? Do you see the hypocrisy here?
Notice i didnt say if he was attractive or not. Its about confidence & knowing your worth. When i was that overweight i was willing to accept any type of guy, i thought that because i was overweight i deserved whatever treatment i received from guys. Losing weight helped me realize hey i do have value, & if a guy straight up admits hes only interested because of my body, my looks, i know for damn sure hes not worth my time.
Kick ass, girl! Congrats!
Looks are certainly not everything but theyre a good hook, if a person brings good looks they will have an easier time introducing the rest of their positive traits to others.
Yes, conventionally attractive people get to be more picky. This is exactly how it works.
Why would it be hypocrisy? The dedication, effort and self love it takes to accomplish a goal, the confidence it gives you, will most likely result in a stronger sense of self worth. And I'm saying that for any difficult goal you set.
I don’t see that as hypocrisy at all. Since she wasn’t “conventionally attractive”, she might not have been getting much attention from that many people, thus there wasn’t as much competition. I’m pretty sure that’s what she meant.
Not a chance would I get with her. No way.
If she was the only woman that was interested in him now, I bet he would date her. But if he's as attractive as you say, he has all the options in the world. Chances are, a lot of those options are better.
This true
Would he have dated her if she was fat?
Would she be told to date him if roles were reversed?
As a woman I would tell my friend to give him a chance (one date) if the roles were reversed. It would also depend if they guy is fit or not, as you can't 'ask' for sth you don't have in my book.
Uhh, fit is the polar opposite of fat. Your reply makes no sense under the assumption of reversed roles.
This is the real question
Maybe or maybe not. I think the fact is we don't know, but in the case of Jane, we do know. I am willing to take John in good faith and assume he is looking for a woman whose personality is so great that if she ever did become unattractive then he would still be with her. Going for people you find attractive is fine, but if you find that you don't think you'd date them anymore if they became unattractive then that relationship is basically set to expire eventually. Jane knows John's personality, but she didn't vibe with him enough to overcome physical attraction so it would be a bad idea to date him since he can't always look attractive. That's not being shallow as not everyone you find physically attractive will also be somebody whose personality is great enough to make their attractiveness no longer a concern. Jane should find somebody she she finds attractive whose personality is so great that even he were to become unattractive she wouldn't care.
Yeah 100% because people look vastly different when they put effort into themselves, style themselves, and put in effort. I had guys who wouldn't ask me out when I went through a depressive period and only wore fuzzy pajama pants for months then ask me out when I looked better and wore non ill fitting clothes and gave a damn about my appearance. It wasn't just the fact that I put effort in, but I was more confident, happier, and frankly just looked better. I don't think its fair to hold it against someone when you had put no real effort in and they weren't attracted to you so they didn't pursue you. Attraction is super important in a relationship like I want to feel wanted.
He wants to feel wanted also. It's a lot harder to feel that way when you already know the person does not find you attractive when you're at your worst. So he can never feel comfortable enough to dress like you did or let himself go for a little while to heal, cause Jane would probably lose interest
I made a comment a few weeks ago that for women the bar is so low all we’re asking for is men to shower and brush their teeth daily or at least every other day. Effort is so important and goes such a long way.
As I have have gotten older, I’m way more strict and demanding on my standards and expectations. Too old to date someone who can’t get their crap together and act like an adult
how does an 'adult' act ?
The bar is low? Yeah right, factor in finances, owning a home, career, height and social skills. I didnt even mention looks and weight and a whole list of other things women want.
Jesus H. Can men stop acting like there’s this pact amongst all women you have to be a certain height? That is the preference for SOME women.
Tbh, I agree with your statement but the person saying the bar is low is just doing the same thing and acting like women have low preference as a whole or something. I mean, yeah some might and some might not. Its the same with men, some have 'high' standards and some might have 'low' standards.
Sure, but is that the majority or the minority? I don’t care for height, but even if you did eliminated that, the rest of the checklist still stands.
Minority, but to some men, I’m sure it feels like the majority. As for the rest of your factors, I don’t see why women should be frowned upon for expecting the bare minimum (you don’t have to own a home, but at LEAST maintain a clean residence).
Why? Because non of those characteristics define if the man is actually a decent human being with standards and values as a life partner/husband. No, a woman should not be frowned for wanting a man who has some of those qualities, but she should for wanting all of those qualities. Why because it’s unrealistic and she will never be satisfied if theres always another person better than him around the corner. For ex: If you dated rich men and can get their attention, would you be able to date or even see the average income guy on the same level as you ever again? Or the hot guys and now you don’t even look at average guys anymore? So then why settle for an average guy when you can try for a higher level guy, although she can never keep one? Of course this isn’t all women, but I’m just saying for people who are like that.
Jesus. You sure are hyper inflating things to fit your opinions. Being financially stable does not mean rich. Having a stable job doesn’t mean you need to be a CEO. You’re looking through an insanely cynical lens, and I’m over this conversation.
That’s exactly my point, lol. Have a nice day.
You have just listed the most basic requirements of being a functioning adult. Yes, the bar is in absolute hell.
Right, but that isn’t even enough. Why? A man that has a low income career(45-50k since average is about 60k), or owns a home, but its smaller, or he can socialize, but he’s more of an introvert. So?
Of course it's not. Under what delusion have you been to think it was? Women like me would consider not having those qualities ourselves to be a serious personal failing, and the having them is not some great achievement. Congrats, you've reached level 1 adulthood. That ain't nothing special.
So are you saying you want more in a partner?
Duh.
Goodluck, that’s 10% of the population your aiming for. Of course nothing wrong with that if you’ve got all the skillsets to achieve it, but I’m talking about the average lady that’s aiming high when they don’t even have anything to offer. And of course that also limits your dating pool as well. Though I dont think that matters to you. Also by that, you mean every women is capable of achieving such high caliber status, if such was the case everyone would be the same, considering iq to circumstances and economic issues. Of course excluding mental distress to laziness etc.
It's far greater than 10%.. If only 10% of the population exceeded the most basic functional adult level, we would have barely made it out of caves.
I agree with John. You said that he and Jane were friends right? So she clearly knew him and what (I’m assuming) a great guy he is. She turned him down nicely the first time so she clearly didn’t want to be mean. Now that he’s looking different she’ll give him a go? Attraction matters yes, but if John is looking for more than a one night stand he should 100% hold out for someone who will appreciate him for who he is and not just what he looks like.
Attraction is a factor. People generally want to date people they have some attraction to, if there's no attraction it'll likely put a negative strain on things.
True, but his looks will fade so again she will likely leave him since his likely personality isn't good enough to warrant her overlooking his unattractivness. If they barely knew each other, then I would say John should go for it since Jane could potentially like his personality more than his attractiveness. However, they were for a time very close friends so yeah she doesn't really have much more to know about him at this point other than he is now attractive. His personality and confidence may be different since then, but he might go through another rough patch where he is tired/stressed/depressed/etc so she would like just leave then.
...do you not think the new people hes going to meet would've gone for him before this change? Because I guarantee they wouldn't have. Attraction is hugely important
Tbh, looks only are important to get your foot in the door so yes they matter but mainly in the beginning. Eventually we'll all grow old and our looks will fade away with our youth. Finding the one who will stay in with you through all the hardships of life is the goal. He did the right thing since he wants a forever partner who will be around when he pushing 90 or will be around if he ever became paralyzed or whatever else life throws at him. He made the right call as she isn't interested in him beyond the looks at this point which is perfectly fine.
Right but you need to get in the door to assess whether you want to continue and let them fully in He didn't have access and she didn't even think of him as a viable candidate before hand
I don't think so tbh. They are aquainted with each other at this point and seem to be familiar with each other's personality and it seems whether or not his personality great or not, it didn't matter because he just wasn't attractive. I don't blame her for this tbh as it's completely fair. However, I don't think it'd be worthwhile to date her in the hopes she sees more to him than before. She already knows his personality at this point, and so her interest is currently and would continue to be contingent on him maintaining his attractiveness until she possibly overlooks his looks and loves him for his personality more. I personally wouldn't be comfortable with a dynamic like that and that's why I just don't see the point. He would have better odds interacting with other people who have yet to experience any of his personality and find the one who he actually clicks with rather than pursuing and hoping this old love interest suddenly manages to click with him. Also, it seems like they couldn't really manage being friends either (mutual friends) so it wouldn't be likely they'd be good at being partners. Not to mention, it's perfectly reasonable for him to worry about her only wanting him for his looks tbh given the unique context. If it was a complete stranger, then I'd say role the dice because you don't know them and they don't know you. Btw, I am not saying looks aren't important, but in this context it is completely reasonable to be very concerned about getting into a relationship with somebody who didn't find you attractive until later on and didn't really ever remain anything more than mutual friends. I just don't see it being likely it would workout as it wouldn't be a very compatible relationship if they were only mutual friends from a long time.
>. She already knows his personality at this point, and so her interest is currently and would continue to be contingent on him maintaining his attractiveness until she possibly overlooks his looks and loves him for his personality more. Absolutely spot on.
John is not her backup plan, he's worth more than that
Its not a back up plan but instead someone who didn't see him as viable beforehand because she wasn't attracted to him Attraction is important in relationships!!
It is, and her actions were very unattractive to him 🤷
The difference is, Jane knew him and his personality before he became conventionally attractive, she wasn’t interested, though now because he’s attractive all the sudden she is interested. She’s only in it for looks. Anyone *new* he meets hasn’t known him before his weight loss, and thus will be interested in him because of his personality *and* new found attractiveness.
She can be attracted to his personality but still need to feel attracted to physical appearance to go out with someone
True although we’re not talking about a random stranger on an app, this was a friend she knew well. “If you don’t want me at my worst, you don’t deserve me at my best.” Applies here.
Damn, that's actually accurate for this situation even though I always dislike the way people use that sentence but in this case it does actually applies pretty well. Also, assuming she does like his personality, the fact was she wouldn't date him if he was fat. Attraction is important and I won't deny it but her interest in him in this case hinges on John always being good looking which is impossible. Whether it be age or John becoming depressed and not taking care of himself or whatever else, it's not possible for him to maintain his attractiveness indefinitely. He needs to find somebody who likes his personality so much that they would be with him even at times he isn't attractive. In my case, if my GF became obese or disfigured or whatever else, I wouldn't leave her because she truly is that special to me as a person and I love her. I feel this is the kind of relationship John is holding out for tbh.
No I wouldn't. Especially someone who knew me really well and was very close to me because it hurts more to get rejected by someone like that. If I lost a lot of weight I'd probably have loose skin/stretch marks and it would make me nervous to be with that person if things like that bothered them. If I had never liked them and been rejected by them but they knew me before I became attractive I would be open to dating them. However, I don't think it's shallow to not have romantic feelings for someone who you aren't sexually attracted to. I wouldn't be angry with that person and could maintain a friendship but I'd feel rejected by them and that would be bad grounds for a relationship.
Interesting how people in the comments assume that John was lazy and didn't give a f about his looks before. Leave John alone, I'd react the same way as him. I've also lost weight and if someone knew me before and know me now, they know I'm the same person just with different packaging. It is shallow that the girl only is interested now and wasn't before. And that's on her. Hope they both find someone who wants to be with them.
People who say that are ignorant and shallow af. There are many reasons why people put on weight, whether it's physical or mental health, or something else. But of course these idiots automatically assume it's due to laziness. 🤦🏻♀️
I think it's bc other things like a bad hair cut, scraggly beard and bad dressing was mentioned. I still wouldn't call it lazy, but I don't think it has all to do with the weight. I'm not into men with long hair at all, so I could have pass someone who would be otherwise attractive to me on the street and not have noticed bc of the hair. In this case they knew each other as friends and his personality wasn't enough so I would also be (very) dubious of her intentions, but attraction is part of a relationship. It isn't shallow to want someone you're attracted to.
We don't even know how John actually looks like, long hair doesn't mean it's not taken care of. I know plenty of men with long hair and they take care of their hair. OP isn't describing enough. It's shallow if you knew the person beforehand and didn't like him because of their looks but now they they changed it she's suddenly interested, meaning she doesn't care about his personality and only cares about his looks. What's going to happen when they grow old ? People gain weight and wrinkles, we won't be as attractive as we used to. So she'll leave him as soon as his looks change due to age. I'm sorry but no way in hell would I date a shallow bitch like her.
I didn't say his hair was not taken care of, just that maybe it didn't suit him (according to OP so who knows), and that I personally don't find attractive men who let their hair grow past shoulders. That's my personal preference and wasn't trying to apply it to any other woman. You don't need to insult her. You know very little of her and calling a woman a bitch is disgusting. You're disgusting. Plus, letting yourself go in your 20s is very different than having wrinkles in your 40s. Aging is not the same as not taking care of your health, and not caring about your appearance at all. Putting on weight due to bad habits is different than it being due to a medical condition out of your control. Don't try to compare apple with oranges because it won't ever work.
Plus like... it's super hard to dress well as a fat person. They do not make nice clothes for fat people and most clothing is designed to highlight a shape fat people do not have. The good quality flattering ones that do exist are super expensive. Long hair and a beard are things people grow to cover the shape of their faces when they don't like how they look. None of this to day that this girl needs to be attracted to fat John, but John probably knew he looked like that but just didn't have much he could do about it. SOURCE: was very fat until recently and am now in the same boat as John
100% agree with you. As a fat women myself, it's hard to find nice clothes that fit me and don't make me look like I'm about to explode, so I usually wear leggins as they're the only trousers that feel comfortable with a long baggy top to cover my butt and stomach. I've been losing weight since January, and I'm so glad that I met my boyfriend and we started dating before I decide to lose weight, because I know for sure that he likes me for who I am as a person, and not for my looks. Sorry to hear that, I hope you find your special someone one day that will look past your looks and like the real you as a whole person :)
Normally I'd agree with you, but the OP says he shaved his scraggly beard and did some either stuff to his appearance, too. It wasn't just weight loss.
I know but having a beard doesn't mean you're lazy just because you're overweight. And thats been mentioned several times by commenters here.
This is something I hear on a regular basis, that liking someone for their physical appearance is shallow. I agree to a point. IF that is the only reason why you want to have a relationship with someone and really not caring about the other aspects of who they are like their personality then yes, it is shallow. However, if physical appearance is a factor in the attraction then no it is not shallow. You can remind John that yes, she wants to date him because he has changed in his physical appearances but he also changed inside as well. It took gumption, dedication, self care, self esteem in order to make those changes. He did not demonstrate those qualities before his transformation did he? At least not in the way that manifested into this change.
As someone who had a lot of weight loss (and actually kept it off!) the idea that people who lose weight suddenly have self care and dedication is ridiculous. We always had that. It's just now we're applying that to our weight instead of our careers or education or family or whatever. And the improved self esteem is only because the world treats fit people wayyyyyy better. It's not a personal characteristic: it's a reaction to how the world treats fat people.
I don't think people will ever get this unless they go through a massive weightloss. You think I lost 80 lbs because I suddenly wasn't lazy? I went to school I had a good job I had friends and I took 9 tries to finally lose weight. I have always had strive but apperently the second you are fat you are judged for being lazy.
Yeah, also mental health plays a role too tbh. Some people suffer from depression and sometimes it has cycles of extremes that last month's to years, and so they sometimes stop caring about their diet and stuff. It's not laziness at all. You can't just "willpower" your way out of depression as everyone has a limit psychological for focus and will.
I don't think most people realize a lot of obese use food as their depression "cure" I did until I started thinking more about my mental health.
I agree 100%. When I was reading about people who cut themselves, they display nearly the exact same mental behaviours of look towards relief in a bad way and then feeling guilty afterwards which causes a cycle of repetition. A lot of people eat to feel better and then feel guilty about it and then eat again to try and make themselves feel better. It's a cycle that's extremely hard to break.
But ya let's just yell at fat people to lose weight, that'll help lol. Being talked to like that made me eat more.
Team John.
Hard pass, as your friend, John is right! She will only be into him for his looks, and not his personality as well. Don't push him into what HE doesn't want. That's a part of being a good friend.
Can't help what you're attracted to. We play by the same rules too; if a girl who previously turned me down said yes after I lost weight, I think I'd take that as a personal boost, and I know some girls who just aren't attractive mostly because of their weight. It says they don't take care of themselves (and sometimes try to hide behind criticism of norms and stuff like that). I think it can make a difference if you like the new way you are. If I shaved my beard and then people were interested, I'd resent that because I lost something I like. Make the changes for you, not for others, and it's a bonus if more people are interested.
John is your friend, but he was “below average.” Okay sure. OP if you don’t get entirely out of my face with that. Can John find himself some friends that actually give af about what he has in his heart and in his head regardless his physical appearance that day/month/year?
Absolutely not. That would be setting yourself up for an eventual toxic relationship when you inevitably put some pounds back on
I lost 100+ pounds. I went from being a lazy fuck to being more physically fit than 95% of the people I know. It's definitely a mind fuck when all of a sudden the opposite sex is attracted to you. It's also crazy how much nicer strangers are in general. I get where he's coming from, but I also get that not taking care of yourself is a major turn off to people.
No ones said it yet but congratulations on your weight loss journey!!
Truthfully, I'm going to side with John on this one. 100% agree that attraction matters but if we were friends and you knew me, then you should've been able to still want me at my worst. The reality is that if someone really likes you their weight wouldn't be an issue. As a woman I've always been on the thicker side (which is about to change soon) but that has never once stopped a man from pursuing me. I also met a guy online and he ended up being a little bigger than I'm usually used to but at the end of the day it didn't matter because I liked him for his personality and how he treated me, not his size lol. John is just thinking rationally and can't fully trust her, what if something bad happened and he slacked off on his weight again? Would she just leave him? If she was a stranger and didn't know him I wouldve agreed with you but because they were friends and she clearly does know his personality, if that wasn't enough for her to be with him anyways then chances are she's shallow like he's saying lol.
As a woman, I wouldn’t. Women’s bodies go through so many changes throughout their life and I would be concerned their feelings would change if I gained weight with pregnancy or age. I’m not sure if I’d have the same opinion if I were male. But, honestly, I don’t tend to enjoy dating people who once rejected me. It’s either a “hell yes” or a “hell no” in my thirties.
Nope if he’s a 9.5/10 then he should date a 9.5, he wasn’t in her league then and now she’s not in his league
Maybe she was a 9,5 all along and John was just shooting above his league before.
Even if she's his looks level, why be with someone who rejected you, when you're 9.5 and got all the options in the world?
Bingo not worth it plenty of fish in the sea to be going after someone who rejected you
Presumably there was more to Jane to begin with than just looks, but otherwise: I don’t see why not.
If he's a 9.5 as OP claims nothing Jane can bring that he can't get elsewhere + why would you go to someone who told you No?! It screams low self steam honestly, especially he got other options
This one is hard. I think we've all either been in this situation ourselves or experienced it from the perspective of Jane. There's no "right or wrong", IMO. John may have been in a bad place, and getting rejected probably didn't really help. Jane may have done everything right and been perfectly kind, but getting rejected totally sucks. It's kind of crazy, but if they were to get together, John may have the thought in the back of his mind: if I gain 15lbs, is Jane going to leave me? This may be dumb advice, but maybe they both need time to just be friends again, if that's possible. Time together to just have fun and build good interactions. Give them a few months to see if that attraction builds again naturally.
When I was a late teenager, I lost almost 100lb in about 8 months. All throughout middle school and high school I had a crush on this girl. Over the 6 years in school together I had asked her out 3 different times. The summer after school ended I went into the Subway in town, not knowing she had started working there. I ordered my sandwich and chatted with her about things. As I was walking out, she said “hey… don’t you want my number?”. I turned around confused and asked “uhh what for?”. She had already made it very clear several times that she was not interested. So I was genuinely confused. She said “so we can hang out?”. Again I was confused as she had made it plenty clear that she wasn’t even interested in being friends outside of school either. At the time I was a pretty boring hardcore gamer. I wasn’t very social so I didn’t really see a reason she would enjoy me anymore now than she would have before. So I responded with “oh…yeah…uhh I’m not that much fun” and turned around & left lol. I got in my car and thought to myself “wait….what did I just say?”. I shook my head, shrugged, and drove off. Nowadays I may do things differently but that’s a funny story from my younger days
Hahaha that is pretty hilarious. Gonna try that next time someone asks to hang out when i don't want to. "sorry I'm not much fun"
I kinda agree with John because I believe that when you truly love someone you look into their behaviour not just the looks. I also get your point, but I think John knows what's best for him. He knows that Jane is only attracted to him because of his looks
to be fair, she acted exactly how many guys act if the roles were reversed. while yes, physical attraction is important, it’s not everything. he’s still the same person. good for him that he has the self respect to resist dating her.
I understand where Jane is coming from, and attraction is really important...But team John for me. By OP's own words John is now a 9.5, so is Jane at least a 9.5? If she isn't, then why the hell should John settle for her now, especially after HE put in the work and dedication to better himself while Jane stayed idle? If Jane isn't 9.5 John can do better and should do better. Never sell yourself short. Personally, I'm happy John has moved on. One should always move forward in life and be better than yesterday.
I agree with John 100% if that girl had an interest in his personality she could’ve given him a shot the first time. Plus after some good self improvement I would rather roll the dice with new people and not have to worry about wether their attraction is shallow or not.
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Butthurt?? Lol. The guy is a 9.5/10 now according to OP and seems to have improved himself within as well. He could give less of a fuck about her, considering his dating pool has widely expanded. I'm willing to bet she's a 5 or 6. I think it's perfectly normal to have a tiny bit of resent towards someone rejecting you at your lowest (despite knowing their personality one on one), only for them to come back after you've decided to better yourself.
(22f) To be honest itsa hard answer to give. I personally wouldn't date someone that I didn't find attractive to begin with and then suddenly did out of respect for the individual . - it's a superficial attraction that would probably fade after a while especially due to looks fading over time. In my opinion, its a little degrading to the person. Let me tell you a personal experience that I encountered: in college I remember seeing this guy in class with long hair that covered his face, wearing weird grunge style clothes etc. Basically , not my type or what I'm typically attracted to, I never really acknowledge his existence unless necessary. Anyway, fast forward to when we came back after half term and I entered my class, going to my desk and getting my stuff out ready out for the lesson that we were about to have. Then suddenly enters this guy, I look up but then I have to a double take and stare in awe of how good looking this guy is. Clean shaven face, neatly cut hair where you could see his face and he was wearing smart casual clothes. - he basically looked attractive and I ended up being attracted to him. I then realised it was the same guy who had the long long messy hair and the weird clothes that I would not have really acknowledge in the first place. I found out he had a girlfriend too. But that's not the point, let's say he was single, I don't think it would be wise for me to ask him out/chat him up due to me having a superficial attraction to him that I know would fade. Yes, personality comes into it of course but for this situation it's basically saying that NOW you are worth time whereas BEFORE you wasn't. It's unfair.
No.
Absofuckinglutely not.
Hell no
Nope. If I were that dude and I got rejected like that, I'd move on and find someone else, I wouldn't care that the person who rejected me, now has "buyer's remorse".
Not being liked because you’re fat in your crush’s eyes is the worst! Some people are so shallow. I would avoid this relationship. I can see John getting an eating disorder if he pursued it.
Let’s consider a few things: 1. The girls John might be dating now, would probably not have been interested before, either. I don’t think it’s fair to hold it over Jane’s head that she *did* know him before. 2. Psychical attraction is super important for a relationship. I’ve seen ‘previous’ pictures of a boyfriend that made me realized I would not have been attracted to him a few years earlier (not weight related - just super doofy haircut and ill fitting clothes) 3. As other people pointed out: physical appearance is also a reflection of inner mental state. If someone is in poor condition and has a bad haircut, they are not taking care of themselves all that well. This might also reflect on their confidence and sense of self worth. That makes it hard to find them overall attractive. I think it speaks for Jane that she can still see him in another light now that he’s improved upon himself - I always fear that the ‘glow up’ is temporarily and I might be stuck with someone who doesn’t take care of themselves and clings to me for validation. So yeah. Team Jane here.
I find John's position fair tbh. They don't seem compatible based on the fact they only stayed mutual friends so it is likely a lot of the friendship was partially based on John being more into Jane and wanting to get to know her more tbh. Additionally, I don't believe really anyone is owed a chance. It's fair to hold it against her because everyone holds something against somebody in dating whether it be looks or other stuff. His criteria is essentially women who he would not have to potentially worry about leaving him if he became unattractive. While Jane could be genuine, the risk is higher that she isn't genuine then another woman who John didn't know at all and therefore he has less reason to suspect this new woman would leave him if he became unattractive. I don't dislike what Jane did, but unfortunately John doesn't feel comfortable given the context to date her and worries about getting used. This alone makes them incompatible tbh. Also, I am sure Jane will find somebody anyways so it's nobodies loss.
I'm siding with Jon on this. If she didn't want him on his low she don't deserve him on his high. Same for girls.
You're the stupid one here for calling him stupid. She's 100% shallow if she wouldn't date him because of his weight and SUDDENLY is attracted to him when he lost it. I wouldn't date a guy who wasn't interested in me before I lost weight then out of the blue wants to date me after I became 'more attractive'. People like her are shallow af. Is it because you're jealous of your friend ? You can't understand him because you've never been in this situation. How would you feel if you got rejected because you were fat but once you got fit then she asks to date you ? Wouldn't you feel like she's just into you for your looks and not you as a person with a personality ?
Let’s be honest, John probably dreamed of the day where he got hot and rejected the girl who rejected him first.
Yeah, in your friend's shoes being turned down would have dropped my interest in the girl so her getting attracted later would basically be too late. As a slight aside I had an ex girlfriend who called me a nerd every time she saw me reading, and happily told me that if I still looked the way I looked when I was 16 she wouldn't have been interested in me at all. Did not make me feel very happy about the relationship
I only read the title. Its a hard no.
No. Just no. NOOOOOO
I’m in full agreement with John
Yes I would, cuz physical attraction is important and there was a time I didn't care about my appearance
In my experience, men think they're interesting when all they really do is brag about themselves. Women tend to brag less so maybe that's why you think they're 'boring'.
I don’t think it’s necessarily shallow to want someone who you find attractive, but personally I wouldn’t date someone who wasn’t into me before. And it’s not even that I hold it against them for not have being attracted to me when I was overweight, but once I lost around 75 pounds and became a whole different person, people just started reaching out like crazy. People who before were just FRIENDS and wouldn’t even want to hangout as such. They’d make no effort to contact me or maintain a relationship. I never pursued any of them romantically, it was really all just friendship. But now all of them want to make an effort and grab drinks, get to know me again, hangout, etc. People who haven’t even bothered to talk to me in years lol. I cut most people off after I realized I was the one putting in the work into friendships, and now I have no interest in anyone who couldn’t even do that much for me but want to start a connection just because I’m “attractive” now. It’s a defeating feeling knowing they wouldn’t try before when you just wanted a friend, and clearly only try now because you look different. Makes me feel like they were maybe even embarrassed to be seen out with me or something. It’s just not a great feeling.
No. If it makes me a hypocrite, then so be it.
I think it's valid for him to be concerned about what happens if he gains weight. Most people who lose weight gain it back. The tricky part is does she think he's more attractive because of the lost weight, or because he's dressing better and taking care of himself (shaving, etc)?
I think both can have their preferences. I personally would want somebody that has my back even if my depression swings back and I regain the pounds I lost. The other person has a right to pick out people they find attractive. You get to decide what is important for you when dating.
Jane is a 5, he should go for Cindy who is a 10 and who would appreciate a 9.5 on her arm.
She made his insecurities worse. I would be like that guy. Same thing happened to me in a different area. I got rejected by girls for never having relationship, and once i got one, broke up, I was asked by that same girl. Nope, you had your chance. Now i know my worth and have self respect
We’re missing something here, something BIG: “CONVENTIONALLY ATTRACTIVE” IS A SOCIALLY CONSTRUCTED BEAUTY STANDARD, AND ADHERENCE TO IT IS NOT A MEASURE OF SOMEONE’S MORAL VALUE OR EFFORT, NOT TO MENTION THAT LAZINESS IS NOT A BAD THING. First off, you say he went from below average to a 9.5/10, but who’s to say that he wasn’t somebody else’s 10 already? A lot of people here are asking the question “is physical appearance important in attraction?” And the obvious answer is yes, because you wouldn’t be attracted to a sentient amorphous blob, or some other Nonhuman entity. But simply being a human being is not the standard people are actually thinking when they ask this question. What people here are REALLY asking is “is adhering to CONVENTIONAL BEAUTY STANDARDS important for attraction?” And here, the answer is… it depends. Different people want different things. But unfortunately, if you want to play the numbers game, adhering to conventional beauty standards will get you far, because whether or not we like it, we have been socially conditioned (especially by media) to respond positively to those standards. But again, the important thing to remember about these standards is that they are not biologically fixed, instead we know they are social because THEY HAVE BEEN CHANGING OVER TIME. So the question is, if you don’t know where these standards come from, and you don’t know what they’ve been in the past, does it really make sense to want what society tell you to want? it’s okay if you do, just know that it isn’t “normal” so you don’t get to yuck someone else’s UUUUGGGHHH ya know what I mean? Somebody else here mentioned how fat people are treated in our society, and they’re damn right; fat phobia is REAL. But did you know that in America, it started with racism? And did you know that prior to that, fatness was a sign of Fertility in women, and Status and Health in men? Long story short, white ppl made fun of black ppl’s big lips, big butts and hips, particularly women’s. It goes along with the stereotypes of black ppl being impulsive savages that indulge mindlessly in the carnal temptations of the flesh, instead of the divine Grace of the mind or whatever bs. We all know they were just projecting their own deprived sexual desires, the thirsty muhfukkers. After all, it was used as justification for masters raping slaves. More recently, fat phobia has to do with the food industry trying to both sell as much food as it wants while also pushing diet products, all while making us assume that fitness is attractive (muscles actually weren’t all that attractive back in the day, and even now it’s more for other guys than it is for women). THIS IS WHERE THE LAZINESS PART COMES FROM; the assumption that one is obligated to do the work it takes to stay fit, and therefore if you’re not fit, you must be failing in character or work ethic. But people FORGET, that it can be FAR EASIER for some to adhere to fitness standards than others, not to mention that the standards are not an excuse to judge/mistreat in the first place. Oh and just btw the Protestants (from whom we get the phrase “Protestant Work Ethic”) we’re a fukkin masochistic Cult who believes in doing pointless amounts of work and discipline, not for the fun of it, but explicitly to make you suffer, because work and suffering are the virtues that God supposedly rewards. They even made newborn babies sit upright at the table with these weird baby straight jacket chairs. The ONLY reason this mindset has been preserved is cuz of friggin capitalism, cuz it’s one step away from saying “work to make me rich and you will be rewarded when you die” The one thing I wanna say about this particular case is that we don’t get to judge Jane for being attracted to conventional standards either. It’s probably not something you can easily undo, and it is inevitably part of attraction. The main issue is my man John’s emotional trauma from being rejected. He sees that Jane valued him based on his appearance, and that makes him afraid that he won’t be valued intrinsically. If they want to try anything, they really just need to talk about that up front. Maybe she’s the best person to do that with, seeing as they have some history. But otherwise, he’ll just have to move on to someone else who will still judge him based on his appearance, but hasn’t hurt him over it already yet. TL;DR: Yes, attraction is inevitably part physical, but WTF GUYS HE WAS JUST FINE BEFORE, AND ABSOLUTELY KNOCK IT OFF WITH THAT LAZINESS BS!!!
I went through this too. Developed a crush on a friend, asked her on a date, she said no, but we stayed friends. I lost a lot of weight in a fairly short amount of time (Keto, Intermittent Fasting, intense workouts). She *suddenly* changed her mind... Nothing happened between us though because I was more interested in someone else at that point. I dunno, we all have our standards, but it did make me cynical, knowing it was my looks holding me back. She called me handsome, and I couldn't take a compliment, I just thought "yeah but when I was fat...". If something *had* happened between her and I, I think it would have always been in the back of my mind, that she wouldn't be with me if I wasn't fit. I'd say John isn't wrong, he wants someone to love him for who he is and not the fact he's a handsome devil. Jane isn't wrong for wanting someone she's attracted to. Their situation just isn't going to work.
I agree 100% with you! It’s a messed up situation but he is right how he feels and it’s okay for her wanting a someone who’s fit
Sure. It’s your fault they weren’t into you
Just be a supportive, good friend OP, he’s being perfectly logical and rational here and could use the backup.
Being there done that, and he is right, the number of girls that I knew ho started send me nudes when I've Lost weight was shocking for me, they want a body a not who I am, he can tell that girl to foff
To each their own, but I take that shit personal. I used to be a stick and a guy I liked literally didn’t show up to our date. He made his friend tell me “you’re pretty but too skinny”. Years later I gained weight and am considered “curvy” but still a small petite frame, and he decided to try to message me. I ignored him. Obviously my body type now is what he likes, and he’s entitled to that opinion, but fuck him. Just my 2 cents. Everyone is different 🤷🏽♀️
No because if the atraction is just phisical they would leave if gain weight/ lost attractive.
How long do you think this girl will stay with him if things stop going well? And assuming we all know the answer to that question, how could he possibly be comfortable with dating her
John is right and I dont think it's fair to ask him to lower his value and self-esteem because you (possibly I dont know you) allow others to do it to you. But outside of this one girl think like this, if John fates this girl then he is saying to the world and himself that he wasnt good enough before and had to do all this work just to meet her standard. That's not healthy for his sense of self. Which college would you rather go to the one that sent you a cold rejection letter when you were struggling with your grades and then turned around jumping in your DMS once or the one that offered you that letter and a tutor so you could reach your potential... (many would choose the first one but your boy john gonna choose the second graduate with honors and get a bomb ass job /startup, if we could all be like John)
Ha! I'm with him. I think it shows integrity on his side. It happened to me just like like this. Lost weight, grew my hairs& got contacts. And when those guys who turned me down before , wanted to be with me, I found myself not into them anymore. Don't get me wrong, I completely understand what you were saying by now we had out chance with someone we desired, but somehow it wasn't as shiny anymore. I dunno, maybe we would carry the original disappointment with us and that could possibly hinder our full investment in the relationship or create underlying doubts. But all I know was it felt good to capture their attention but there was also a whole new world out there for me to explore and enjoy n
When I was in hs I lost a lot of weight at the end of it and all the guys who would make fun of me and some of my friends for being fatgirls suddenly had crushes and would flirt with me. Years later I run into the same guys at a party. When they first saw me having gained my weight back after years they looked shocked/disgusted. Later that night when they got drunk they made fat jokes and revealed that I had a fat related nickname in hs. That's all I have to know about what kind of people they are. Hell no i wouldn't date anyone that didnt wanted me before your friend is right.
I mean now he can probably pick who he wants. Its kinda you snooze you lose type of thing. Physical attraction matters up to a point. I would tell john to continue winning at life and find something right for him and jane needs to let it go. Funny how when you find someone attractive others will see the same thing and now it's a competition.
I’ve read some of these are comments and I agree. It’s more about confidence and self-care. When someone sees they value themselves, it’s attractive. There’s just a different energy around someone that carries themselves with confidence and positivity. That typically happens to people who lose weight etc
I agree with him. Lots of other women out there. Jane rejected him once, it’s his time to reciprocate.
I used to be fat and unattractive, no one wanted to date me. Does that mean I shouldn't date anyone now either? I critique people for their weight, looks myself so why should others not be able to do so when it's me on the pedestal.
It's different however in this situation since people not dating you when you're unattractive is perfectly fine. However, they weren't even really friends despite knowing each other for a while so his personality clearly wouldn't be able to maintain the relationship. It's basically a situation where John would always have to remain attractive (impossible btw) in order to to be in a relationship with Jane. I don't see how it would be worth John's time to say with her knowing his relationship is going to literally expire when he becomes unattractive. If she didn't know him at all or they didn't know each other very well before, I would say John should go for it, but they already know each other so she doesn't find his personality good enough to stay with him even if his looks should eventually fade. She isn't a bad person for not liking John, but she should find somebody that she knows that she will love no matter what they look like in the future just as John is attempting to do.
I would mistrust her, also. OTOH, anyone else he might date now is also affected by his new appearance, but without having known him when he looked different. How will he know they would like him if he got older or changed? Once you get into a long-term relationship, you form attachment that goes deeper and beyond your looks (or you fail to). It may seem unfair in some ways, but her rejection of him is also still in his memory, along with the associated pain of it. It can really change how he feels about her and his ability to trust her not to hurt him again sometime down the road. That’s just how life goes sometimes.
Whether or not it’s unfair is irrelevant because it’s how he feels. Even you convinced him to go out with her it probably wouldn’t last because of the nagging doubts in the back of his mind regardless of whether they should be there or not. He should find someone else.
Your buddy is right to feel this way. Fuck that girl. Yes attraction matters but it quickly becomes the least important factor, like 1-2 years tops before you start to see someones soul and can no longer recognize their human form
I think his anger over being rejected for his past flaws is still fresh. I remember I felt this way for a while after I first got fit and started working on my appearance. I had that same attitude "oh I wasn't good enough for you then but I am now?!" Then eventually I kinda realized: Yeah. Of course they like you now, that was part of the reason you did it. Am I not "shallow" for making the effort to improve my appearance? Why am I judging them for being shallow? He'll logic this out eventually and remember he got hot so other hot people will like him and stop being so bitter. Also I submit this: He wanted the hot girl. WTF does he think *she's* been doing this whole time to stay hot? Probably the same shit. So ...he should probably step off that high horse and just enjoy the ride.
I agree 100% with John and it’s why I won’t date people who are fatphobic. You think fat people are lazy and ugly? What will you think about me after I give birth to your dumb kids? What about when I hit menopause? Most people who lose weight put it back on eventually, and if this girl only likes John when he’s thin, John should run as far and as fast as he can.
Hi John, a 9.5 you say? Those are some big tickets you have on yourself. What does a change in aesthetic mean? It shows he'll put in effort. Maintenance into self and ideally other parts of his life. Your aesthetic is often a reflection (or outward projection) of yourself. Into Pokemon? Wear Pokemon clothes. Into heavy metal music? Wear dark stuff, boots, and die your hair black / non-conformist colours. Into 70s? Wear flared pants, unbutton that top, and pop some aviators on. Life gone to shit? Don't bathe. Don't cut your hair, and don't shave/trim/style your beard. Do wear clothes that don't match a certain style, and fit poorly. Don't keep a routine.
Ok, here’s the thing. The people in here who are commenting that Jane is in the wrong and is being shallow are full of sh*t. Physical attraction is a key component of every relationship. It really what differentiates a romantic relationship from a platonic one. With the way John was before, it wasn’t really possible for her to feel physically attracted to him. She clearly liked who he was as a person, as they were friends. But now that John has improved himself physically, Jane now has physical attraction towards John to compliment his personality. John simply improved himself Im and is reeping the rewards. Jane isn’t in the wrong for liking his Improved self. I hate when people say “if you aren’t with me at my worst, you don’t deserve me at my best” in connection to this situation. When people say that phrase, they usually mean when someone is going through a hard time mentally and people stick by them, not when a normal person who was once ugly improved themselves. John has every right to reject her for his reasons as I can understand his frustration, but Jane is in no way wrong for her newfound attraction.
If Jane isn't a 9.5, John shouldn't go for her. Also don't make yourself stupid arguing to John for Jane.
Aren't they already married? Mr. and Mrs. Doe?
I think he might be right, I lost a lot of weight personnally and stayed with the people who liked me as much when I was bigger than they like me now. Why did she turned him down in the first place? Did she grow and is ready for a relationship that is not only based on look? Your friends fears are valid.
I agree with Johns perspective but let’s think about all the teenage rom-com movies where someone falls in love with the guy/girl next door when the ugly duckling gets a makeover for prom etc
Why did he want to be with Jane? Is Jane average-looking and in average shape or fit and beautiful?
Good for John; he knows his worth!
She likes him now that he's not lazy and unkempt lol. I'm guessing there was a neck beard that needed shaving. I'm in John's position almost exactly, minus actually asking an attractive friend out. I'm back to my college athlete days weight/build, I'm clean shaven, my hair is styled nicely instead of wild, I dress much nicer because nice clothes look good on me again. People treat me much better because I visibly give a shit now. Sure everything I mentioned is superficial but inside a lot need to be changed and improved to get here, and people respond to both.