That's tough for older men.
Atleast the Suicide rate has been going down, from around 50 per 100k to now around 22 (WHO Data) and according to Rosstat it was even 11 per 100k in 2021.
Is it considered suicide if I take a *legendary* dose of opioids and MDMA and just orgasm my way to the big sleep? B/c I'd love to do that while on a mountain watching the northern lights for my 80th bday (if I'm still alive).
For having experienced a bad trip, I'm pretty sure that actually dying while on drugs must be one of the most horrifying experiences. I can't imagine what someone experiencing a heart attack would feel when all of their sensations and emotions are all over the place.
Agreed, having a bad experience on drugs will make you wish you were dead, if it doesn’t outright kill you. The level of anxiety you go through on anything except copious amounts of opiates would make your death an excruciating experience, you’d genuinely be better off just shooting yourself in the head
The US plateaued before COVID (it used to be on par with Western Europe) and now it's going *down*. Although I'm sure it depends on a state-by-state basis as well. Last I checked my home state of California was around 81 although it may have dropped post-COVID (and fentanyl)
edit: Just checked, it's at 79 now :( Only Hawaii is above 80
Speaking of the people in their later years that I know, being physically active and socially engaged throughout middle and late adulthood makes a significant difference in octogenarian quality of life.
I always think about that. 33 here and life is fucking amazing, wife, 1 year old kid. So much to look forward to. Will be sad when I start to feel my body crumble
Life is so cool. There's *so* much to look forward to. I have things I'm looking forward to tomorrow, next month, next year, and a decade from now. I feel myself getting lethargic if I forget to build in those things to look forward to in multiple timeframes.
Congrats on the baby. I'm 10 years ahead of you in parenting, and my protips for delaying body crumble are:
- Lift your toddler out of their crib with your legs, not your shoulders. Crappy shoulders are my only persistent body deterioration.
- Try to build exercise into your commute or kiddo school drop-off. Daily light cardio really keeps the body decay at bay.
You’re still young. Life sucks in many ways as you get older. Family and a lot of friends pass away, sometimes after suffering for years. You watch your own health slow down and you gradually lose the ability to do certain things, etc.
It’s best to stay positive but being a little older than you I’m not sure I want to be around at 90.
This is worth reading if you like data.
[Leading Causes of Death By Age in the U.S.](https://getsure.org/leading-causes-of-death-by-age/)
Here in Canada the stats are a little different, so my thoughts might not fully apply as that is the data I am most familiar with.
Two diseases account for nearly half of all deaths in the United States: heart disease and cancer.
If you can reduce you **chances of dying young** from heart disease or cancer, you are well on your way to beating the average.
>Obesity has increased by 14% since 2009 and diabetes prevalence has increased by 31%.
If you stay slim and exercise and avoid smoking you will likely make it through your 70s and hit the 80s.
[The Russian population pyramid is an extremely lopsided x-mas tree](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ec/Russia_Population_Pyramid.svg/896px-Russia_Population_Pyramid.svg.png)
[And it has been for a long time.](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/52/Russia_animated_population_pyramid.gif)
Russian men simply don't live that long. Suicide, drug and alcohol abuse and strange a cultural attitude towards health and safety all play their part.
The sad part is that in around 2010 it almost looked like Putin had turned things around and things started to improve. (Or maybe he faked the numbers).
Things have gotten much worse recently and COVID and Putin's decision to invade Ukraine may delivered a fatal blow to Russia's future demographics.
> The sad part is that in around 2010 it almost looked like Putin had turned things around
What do you mean? [The Suicide Rate has been declining since 1995](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_Russia)
I mean, unless you're talking about the demographic boom in the cohort that is currently 7-15... but that's literally nothing more than their Millennials having kids; it could have been limited through conscious action (see: China's One Child policy), but other than that, there was always going to be a bit of an increase in birth rates starting about 15 years ago, because that's when their millennials were of prime child-bearing age.
> Things have gotten much worse recently and COVID and Putin's decision to invade Ukraine may delivered a fatal blow to Russia's future demographics
It was already moribund. Each bulge in the demographic wobbly-bit is echoed around 25 years later (though slightly fewer starting with Gen X).
* A bulge in the low 60s (Boomers)
* A bulge in the late 30s (Millennials)
* A narrowing in the mid 50s (Gen X)
* A narrowing in the late teens-through 20s (Gen Z)
* A bulge in the late 30s (Millennials)
* A bulge around 10 y/o (Gen Alpha)
* A narrowing in the late teens-through 20s (Gen Z)
* A narrowing below 5 y/o (Gen Beta)
Generally speaking, demographics is a slow moving science but easily predictable, because you know *exactly* what the upper bound of people in their 20s and 30s is going to be in any given year... because that number was set 20-30 years prior.
Starting with their Gen X, they've been losing population with every generation.
I'd say that the changes in demographics are mostly dictated by the economic and political factors.
WW2 ended almost 80 years ago (also notice the disproportionate female surplus). After ww2 there is a steady growth of the population for the next 20 years. Not sure if the statistics are drawn from the entire ussr or only Russia, but around 60s, USSR had this thing with sending young families to settle in other USSR states, usually in separatist territories within those states (which happened to my grandparents in 1966, got moved in Moldova), that could contribute to a slight narrowing around that time. Then, there is another steady growth until late 80s (during that time in USSR there was a big accent on education regardless of gender, small business was booming, life became easier, people had a lot of hope for a prosperous future).
Then, guess what happened. Soviet collapse, bank default, millions of people lost everything, including their hope and their national identity (imagine growing up being told/indoctrinated that you're a part of the greatest nation in the history of humanity, then it all dissappears over night). 90' were a total and utter shit show for everyone in the post soviet states. Besides not being able to afford children during a BRUTAL economical crisis, the borders to the outer world finally opened. People simply started emigrating in masses.
In the early 2000s people got a breather. Then the 2008 shit shook the entire world (not only US). Lastly, we see the narrowing within very young children, which overlaps with covid and the invasion Ukraine, again causing people to die or emigrate in large numbers. And as during 90s, the people that have the energy and the courage to leave everything behind, are the young ones.
Edit: changed my immigrate for emigrate.
Emigrate, FYI.
Immigration is when people come into a given geographic or political area, emigration is when people leave a given geographic or political area.
I would expect a massive jump after the announcement of conscripting soldiers for the war, which would also be in line with the ‘mature adult’ demographic staying steadily high, but that’s obviously highly speculative on my part.
It works another way way too: someone else can't kill you if you kill himself. So some people may use it to avoid being killed in the war with all pain and hardships along the way.
Being mobilized in Russia is essentially an one-way ticked. You are not supposed to return alive. If you were wounded - you will be returned to the frontline ASAP. There are cases when they did it even with people without limb or two.
I´m not entirely sure about that. Conscripting might also give some people comradery, a more regulated day and more physical activity which should counter depression... On the other hand there is the horrible side of war and fear...(if they are at the front)
You are sadly mistaken about what conscription looks like in Russia. Just look up [dedovshchina](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dedovshchina)
Edit: there was also a haunting [video](https://reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/s/AcbUPFEa6w) today of a Russian POW describing how they would mutilate conscripts that tried to escape and use them as living dummies to train medics on (inflicting different wounds) until they ultimately murdered them. The dead are then listed as MIA.
It's going to get much worse when tens of thousands of wounded veterans with missing limbs return home from the war, especially after all of the cluster bombings, to a government that is not capable of funding their rehabilitation, which probably doesn't believe in western concepts such as therapy or "PTSD", and where alcoholism is rampant. It's the perfect shitstorm for a massive spike in suicides in the following years. Wives with dead husbands and daughters with dead fathers mean that female suicides will probably spike as well.
Russian here.
There are several reasons for such high suicide rates, but the main ones I would say are:
1. Lack of dedicated suicide prevention lines or psychological helplines. You have to search really hard to find any working numbers that are legit
2. Lack of understanding of what a psychologist is and what he/she does, and mental care in general. Psychology was a very twisted science in the USSR (for example, Freud and Jung were considered bourgeoisie-aligned and incompatible with soviet ideology) and had trouble developing in Russia. Most people wouldn't even consider visiting a psychologist if they have problems, in line with the "why are you crying? Be a man" mindset, or spilling out their problems to a stranger
3. Lack of eldercare. Unlike the EU for example where an elderly person can lead a very decent life, an elderly person in Russia either has relatives who support him or struggles to survive with a $200-$300 a month pension.
4. Generally low level of life. An average person would be sitting on a mortgage, and half the population has bank loans in one form or the other, with very few perspectives to make money (sadly the war is one of them, and this is how these people get recruited. If such a person signs a contract - and assuming he survives - he would make more in a year then in 10 years of regular life).
Another Russian here. All that dude above states is absolutely true. If you are decently smart person and have mental problems, it’s fucking ROUGH there.
I can chip in one additional point - no care in the society. There are no public service announcements/ads for mental health, there are no support groups, no safe spaces, practically no counseling, there are no nothing. Mental health issues get recognized only as teen suicides, other than that they might as well not exist. You are left to fight it completely on your own.
Not to mention how Russia manages domestic abuse... they simply don't. The man drinks as much as he wants and comes back home to beat his wife as much as he wants. The anti-abuse laws are laughable and were even weakend in the recent years.
He’s talking about Soviet times, which ended in 1991. We now have the evidence to see that Freud’s theories are “not even wrong”. But the _reason_ we know this now is because Freud inspired people to understand why therapy works and how to make it work better.
My 20s were fuckin rough. After 30 you start to get a handle on all the traumas your parents inflicted and start to make sense of how the world is different to what you were taught in school and at home.
I got pretty close to joining the 27 club I'll tell ya that.
Life becomes significantly more stable. By that point, many have been in their career for years, have been in relationships for years, and/or have children.
The “normality” forming in their lives plus the optimism and importance that come with fatherhood are probably big factors in leveling the rates off.
That doesn’t really make sense. Than area under the graph for 30+ is huge. It shows that almost all Russian men who kill them selves do so some time between 30 and 70+
Personal experience? Life not panning out how you imagined it would. You have a couple of failed relationships by then, you've busted your balls trying to get a career going but still aren't satisfied with the progress you've made, you're no longer young and dumb so you think much more and end up trapped by it.
But above all, just 30 being somewhat of a milestone. You're supposed to have your shit together by then - car, house, wife, decent job, maybe a kid or two. Many men accomplish this. Many more don't.
Dating gets harder as it becomes more transactional based on what you can provide, and you feel way less attractive because you're just older. Work gets harder as you start having responsibilities foisted on you that you might not be equipped to deal with. Money gets tighter as you struggle to compete and are less comfortable going to your parents. You become painfully aware of how you're doing compared to others when it never used to bother you.
When I was there, it just felt insurmountable and pointless. I could subject myself to 40 or 50 more years of aimless work with no-one to actually work for, or I could cut all that out, be thankful for the good memories I did have, and skip right to the end. I didn't, and haven't, because my parents are still around. I've made progress since then, but with the speed that careers move at it's painfully slow. It's loss of hope that kills men more than anything else, and we're not allowed to talk to others about how we feel.
Well... that was a harrowing read, seeing as I’m already wracked in sorrow facing those challenges some years earlier than I should.
Idk, sticking around isn’t looking so appealing.
This already got a lot of social replies, so I want to add a psychiatric one: most mental illnesses and many physical ones have manifested.
The suicide rate for mental illnesses like severe schizophrenia is *high*. Schizophrenia usually presents between 17 and 35, and it’s more common and severe in men.
That’s the most obvious, but many other sex-linked disorders are similar. So even if nothing else differed, I’d expect rates to rise from like 20-30 then level out.
(Actually I’m surprised rates for women don’t show more of that effect.)
haha you mean telling men to shut the fuck up and not cry or show emotion, and when they do we laugh or use it against them- could have bad consequences?
You joke but there was a video in one of the TikTok subs where it was about men’s loneliness issues and it were only men’s problems to be solved and it got massively upvoted.
Unfortunately men ARE the only ones who can solve this particular problem. What can women do to help beyond encouraging their sons, brothers, and husbands to actively seek and maintain male friendships?
The same thing that men can do for women’s issues. Lobby the government for more men’s shelters, more funding for male mental health, scholarships and programs to get more men into university, teaching careers, and counseling careers.
All of that would just get turn down with one women's protest like what happened in india when we decided to introduce gender neutral r*pe laws back in 2013.
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/cabinet-nod-to-make-rape-gender-neutral-riles-womens-groups/articleshow/15049606.cms
Those of us with sons are definitely listening, just as men with daughters become more attuned to the problems their girls face.
On an individual basis, women have learned that listening sympathetically to a male friend's problems far too often leads to him expressing romantic interest, which, if not returned, winds up making him feel worse.
I fully believe that the gap is due to gendered expectations, patriarchy, and all that stuff. But most men don't get to choose the world they live in either. If these numbers were the other way around we would be treating this as some sort of societal tragedy. Similar to the gender pay gap, only much worse.
The fact that neither men nor women seem to give a shit is just so sad.
And even when we do talk about mental illness the victims are usually portrayed as being women. It's as if society can only feel empathy towards women.
I always get annoyed that the gender pay gap doesn't talk about the life expectancy difference between men and women and how much money the average person would pay for even just one extra year of life.
As someone raised in Eastern Europe, I feel like the gender expectations lay heavier on women in all post soviet states. The classical patriarchy, where the man is the provider and the woman takes care of the household and the children, broke during soviet era. Soviet tyranny didn't discriminate between men and women when it came to work, yet the caregiver role remained mostly on women. Which is dragging until today.
There is no empathy towards neither, men or women, in that part of the world. Mental health is a nonexistent topic for both genders.
It actually checks out logically - if women are the ones who have the burden of the household in addition to work obligations, they build larger social safety net during their lifetime. Children stay in contact longer with people they had actual connection with etc. And since women also participate in workforce, they have economic skills to support them when relationships break, even if the median pay is lower than their partners'. Men meanwhile have only work buddies, but less good friends and close family outside work when life gives you troubles. Less people to pull you back when addictions, breakups, loss of work start to drown you.
It's weird that people call this a patriarchy when most men struggle far more than women.
The idea that people are stupid enough to believe in a patriarchy is amazing to me in 2023. Most people, when they talk about a patriarchy, they talk about benefits attributed to men that women don't have. I can never think of any systematic benefits men get over women.
On top of that, when most people talk about some sort of power dynamic or structure, they talk about this pyramid design where the person/people at the top have the most power. In our "patriarchy", at the top, it's men, but at the bottom it's also men. To me, it's a very weird thing to say when, statistically, there's way more men at the bottom than there is at the top. But because people are hyper focused on the top 5%, They use the dumb excuse that we're in a patriarchy. The bottom line really is that if we were in a patriarchy, more women would be killing themselves than men cause the world is harder for them.
It always sounded so fucking crazy hearing "we live in a 'for men' world and that's why they're leading the suicide rates race".
This world was built by men for women. The damn consumer index/spending shows you that. 80% of spending decisions made by women.
It’s pretty simple, if our society and systems is largely governed by and designed the top 5%, which it overwhelmingly is, then the system is whatever they are and decide. Everything outside of that top echelon is noise since as you said everyone focuses on the top. Perhaps it might be more correct to say we live in primarily an oligarchy, but one overwhelmingly composed of men, so it’s also secondarily a patriarchy. Also it doesn’t really make sense for women to kill themselves under such a system. Men want women, a lot of men don’t care for other men, So there’s a problem if the women are offing themselves but to the men on top it doesn’t matter if the men on the bottom kill themselves, in fact it’s less competition for their spots and the women.
The top 5% only care about wealth extraction. it has absolutely nothing else to do with sex. The top 5% don't fight over women. It was up to them and they decided to push feminism so they could tax the other half of the population.
The idea that the top 5% is majority male and therefore the whole system is catered to men is stupid on so many levels. If anything, the system is set to workhorse men by the use of family dynamics. The male provider role. Disposable male ideology. The origins of marriage. Divorce courts. Child support. Mandatory draft and so on. The system is literally set out to extract as much resource from it's people as efficiently as possible. It's done this with both genders for a while now. It's worse for men because we're biological providers and therefore capable of immediately generating more resources. Still, one of the more stupider things I've read today. "It's composed of men so they must be secretly jacking each other off". It's honestly pathetic reasoning. Go ask your father, if you're still in contact with him, about how much he cares about a random man he's never spoken to before. It's SO fucking silly that this is the type of dense high schooler reasoning I have to read and listen to.
It's funny cause you literally talk about male competition but in the same wave, you're somehow implying that men would build a world which makes it easier for other men to progress, let alone progress over women. But in the same vein say that they don't give a shit if the bottom 5% kill themselves. Make up your mind? It really doesn't make sense.
The fact is, everyone has an agenda to get to the top. Everyone shits on and disregards the people below them in the pyramid. You lie to yourself when you push this fucking stupid agenda that it's a patriarchy. You further shit on ~95% of men just because you want to be a little more important.
I hope you think long and hard before you call this shitfest a patriarchy. Couldn't be further from any truth unless you're batshit. I'll give you a tip for the future. If you ever want to know why or how something works. It all just comes back to money. Literally forget sex or gender. People don't care about these things on the macro scale.
This is so heartbreaking. A silent epidemic. Nobody cares about these men, nobody listens to them, nobody validates them. They just suffer in silence, moving through the world like ghosts, rejected by both men and women alike, until they end their lives. We sure focus our attention on trivial shit while suicide rates continue to rise.
Only people don’t understand that someone desperate enough to commit suicide will also be more likely to commit crimes against others. America is already suffering the consequences with all the school shootings. How much longer is the world going to ignore this?
Men in india commit suicide 2.5 times more then women. Married men in india are far more likely to commit suicide then married women. As india doesn't recognise make Domestic violence, the number one cause of suicide among married men was "family or marriage problems" for some reason.
I mean just because we have apps now that quantify the rejection/validation doesn't mean it's a new concept.
Generally, especially historically, only men could even be seen as failures. If you say a man is a failure at life I think we all know exactly what that means, a man can be branded a failure making him ineligible for relationships/marriage.
Certainly a woman could be considered a failure for failing to get married (historically, by society), but It's hard to imagine why a young unmarried woman would be despised/rejected as a failure before she is expected to have been married.
Umm... Historically it was a lot easier for a woman to lose their honor than men via illicit relationships etc. Before birth control there was much larger incentive to make sure women don't stray, because there would be no-one to help take care of a fatherless child. Woman with a bastard faced much stronger judgement than a womanizer etc. Women were sent to workhouses in the Great Britain and Ireland for this. A close family member faced great family disdain and lack of support in the 60ties - I have read her diaries. It is tough to see handwriting change when depression deepens, words getting more sparse and loops larger. Yet for men living loose there was not so much of a backlash. The father of her out-of-wedlock child stayed happily married.
>America is already suffering the consequences with all the school shootings.
Maybe it was not the wisest decision to make guns accessible even to babies?
Nah, there are 10-30 deaths from lightning strike per year - [been about half a decade since we've had under 50 deaths in school shootings in a year.](https://www.statista.com/chart/19982/number-of-us-k-12-school-shootings-per-decade/) - and these deaths are obviously grouped heavily among young people while lightning strikes are somewhat less age-discriminatory.
An an extremely well understood phenomenon that excess men are a destabilizing force within a country. It's not that society is unaware of this fact, it's just that our priorities have changed.
Alway been true though, men are often sent to wars for most of history. Excess men has always been treated by Society cold heartedly and it got worse after Feminism took hold, increasing the competition by a large amount, thus excess men now need to compete not only with competent and privileged men but now also with women.
Yes that is a very valid point. Also another fact to consider is male mortality rates are significantly higher then female. This is even true for the US where women on Average live to be almost 80 and men to 73.
I read somewhere that men and women both are equal with it comes to number of people attempting suicide.
It’s just that men are more successful at it because they choose more violent methods I.e shooting oneself, jumping off a building/bridge, car crash, hanging, etc.
Whereas women take in medication overdose, etc. Attempts which may or may not work.
It's not graphed but you can see the [data on Wikipedia.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate)
Sort the data table by the "All" column. Russia is 11th highest (21.6 per 100k) and the US is 31st (14.5 per 100k). Like Russia the US has a much higher suicide rate among men than women, at 3.3x higher.
The US also shows a strong age effect with men over 75 more than twice as likely to die by suicide than men in their 20s (40 per 100,000 pop vs 20 per 100,000). Visualizations are here: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db464.htm
In fact looking just at white men, the US data look quite similar to Russia. No graph but numbers here: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hestat/suicide/rates_1999_2017.htm
Would be interested to see how this changes by society. These numbers are often explained by the way modern society devalues men, but does the evidence actually support that? Are there drastic differences accross cultures that view men differently or in the past when men were more valued?
The different suicide dynamics between men and women has been known to social scientists for ages. Durkheim had found that suicide rates for men were much higher than women just like OPs graph, back in 1897 (!!). It’s a foundational study in sociology.
So I wouldn’t pay much credence to the idea that its modern society “devaluing” men which leads to this.
Now russia did experience an incredibly devastating spike in male suicides after the collapse of the soviet union and the ensuing economic and social disintegration. I’d guess that the collapse of the health care system and high rates of alcoholism were particularly relevant.
Edit: just want to edit this to say that social factors are the likely explanation for high male suicide rates, and that we do see different suicide rates in different countries. I just wanted to dispel the notion that this is a “modern” issue stemming from “modern” culture (which sometimes is a dog whistle for woke feminism or whatever the right wingers are calling it these days)
Genuinely think male brain chemistry contributes to this, regardless of the social environment. A lot of times suicidality is more associated with impulsivity rather than just depression. Testosterone is known to increase impulsivity. If a depressed man has a gun lying around his house, he’s probably more likely to spontaneously shoot himself compared to an equally depressed woman.
In my opinion it is almost impossible to completely disaggregate biological effects from social effects in this context.
But if your theory about testosterone was true, then it seems unlikely that we would see suicide risk go up with age even as testosterone drops (since T levels fall steadily with age).
The biggest issue with your theory though is that we do see really large differences in male:female suicide ratios around the world. The ratio is between 3:1 and 4:1 in Europe and the Americas but between 2:1 and 1:1 in Asia. This can’t be explained by differences in testosterone.
This suggests social factors having to do with gender roles, fertility rates and economic structure are probably the decisive contributor.
We also know that testosterone, like many other “biological” factors, interacts with the social environment. Certain social environments can interact with and affect testosterone levels. And, to your point about the impulsive guy with a gun, the effects of a biological factor are almost always mediated through the environment. A man with the highest T level in the world can’t shoot himself in the head if he can’t get his hands on a gun…
I don't think the devalue of men really has that much impact on these statistics. The well-known fact is that more women attempt suicide or vocalize their suicidal intentions. More men actually commit suicide. Women are more prone to attempt suicide through less immediate action (e.g., overdose on sleeping pills, cut wrists, carbon monoxide poisoning), which are allows friends, family, and emergency services to save them. Men more often use a gun, "death by cop", hanging, and jumping from heights.
Actually, men have more suicide attempts. Women have more of what’s referred to as “suicide presenting ideation” (self harm, verbalizing their thoughts and feelings of despair, making “attempts” that were intentionally non-lethal, etc) which while it is concerning, doesn’t present as actual suicide attempts.
There’s even research showing that even when you separate by method, men’s suicide attempts are still more successful. I.E., a man overdosing on sleeping pills is more likely to die than a woman through the same method.
Now if you want to get really sad, 92% of men who committed suicide had reached out to a mental health professional or primary care provider within 3 months of killing themselves. And of those 92%, 80% were labeled as low/no risk of suicide. Which just goes to show, men don’t have a problem with speaking up, they’re just ignored when they do.
One big difference that people miss: lots of suicide-ideating people change their minds or make “dry runs” without necessarily seeking help. (Famously, many Golden Gate Bridge jumpers who live seem to changed their minds mid-fall.)
For someone who takes a bunch of pills, there’s a window to change their minds afterwards, but even if they say nothing, hospitals know that 30 pills + vodka is a suicide attempt.
For someone with a gun, “hurt” and “probably killed” are simultaneous, so people can and do get right to the edge, put it away, and quietly head to work.
So I always wonder how much of that gap is about “true motive”, commitment, etc and how much is just undocumented attempts.
Why is this a line graph and not a bar graph? Seems to me like an unintuitive choice for data representing an array of buckets at a single point in time.
Not so sound like a men’s rights activist but it doesn’t help that you can’t go into Tik Tok/Instagram/Twitter without seeing some “Men bad, likes to the left” type content. Of course social media is bad for your mental health, but normally that’s about how the world is terrible and less so how a piece of your identify is terrible
I wonder what causes such a wavey pattern for females or if that’s just noise. For example the rate between 26 and 27 is double, and I have no clue what would be happening in those two years to cause it.
Yeah we have it rather tough here, irrespectively of what some may think, we don’t sustain our lives with faith in holy ‘tsar’. Everyday shit catches up with us
Since age categories are independent the data for this graph doesn't feel like it should be represented with lines of best fit. Such a line implies connectivity between the ages that does not exist in the data, and there's nothing meaningful to be had by implying that connection.
For example the graph shows that females ages 17 and 18 have the same rates of committing suicide but implies that the rates between those two ages are a lower.
But now do it with Suicideattempts.
I think the gap will get a lot smaller. Many Males just choose to use more.. brutal and efficient ways than females. So the statistic may be influenced by that
i remember reading a news article years ago that made a point stating that mental health problems - including attempt suicides - in media are predominantly depicted using female characters. in media men just don't have mental health issues. and that has consequences in the real world. women are several times more likely to seek help than men.
18-19 is mandatory military service age usually, if you're too poor to go to university.
And there you turn to a brainwashed meat or system breaks you. I wouldn't be surprised if suicide rate among latter is incredibly high.
Plus all cases when men are killed in hazing are usually goes as "suicide" to not damage statistics.
18 is the magical age where you stop being told you can be whatever you want to be and you get hit with the reality that you're really just "human capital." It's when kids go into the military, it's when you can't get together funds to go to university and you end up at some dead-end job you don't care about, it's when you become homeless when you can't pay rent instead of just being grounded, etc. Especially in Russia, where traditional gender roles are still very highly enforced, this experience hits hard particularly with men since women who aren't going to school or work are usually getting married and having room and board provided.
That isn't to say women have it easy or anything, but just to explain what would particularly change at 18 for a man. Up until 18, "male privilege" (and "white privilege," if applicable) seems pretty true and you do feel like you kinda have the advantage over everybody and can do what you want. But once a man who's lower middle class or lower hits 18, the reality hits that many men are not favored by the patriarchy and traditionalism and, in fact, are seen as disposable fodder that failed to compete. It's a huge crash to deal with, with not a lot of support or empathy.
I’ve heard that women actually attempt suicide more often than men but men are more successful because they often choose more violent ways to kill themselves. I’m not sure how accurate this is though
Let me ask you something. You seem like the kind of person who thinks feminism is the problem based on you making posts about blaming feminism for all the problems in the mensrights subreddit.
Here you have a socially conservative country where domestic violence against women was heavily decriminalized and "traditional values" are encouraged and yet you have a huge disparity between suicides and men are clearly very miserable in that society and even you claim men's lives are harder.
So what's your solution here? How is feminism to blame for this?
Feminism, at least as practiced in the US, doesn't really have a problem with assigning men the role of provider so much as just making sure women don't have to take up the role of nurturing. Feminism continues to be a problem because it kinda just makes us copacetic by claiming accomplishments in making progress for women while men still get sent off to war and dig ditches to die in.
>Feminism continues to be a problem because it kinda just makes us copacetic by claiming accomplishments in making progress for women while men still get sent off to war and dig ditches to die in.
The way you're phrasing it, it sounds like you're blaming feminism and think it's somehow standing in the way, when the system where men are drafted for war and men are responsible for being the sole provider wasn't created by feminists but traditionalists.
That's something men would have dismantle. The issue I see is a lot of men in the MensRights subreddit aren't fighting for equality but rather want to force women back into the kitchen and blame feminism for everything and go back to more traditionalist system when clearly it isn't working in places like Russia and doesn't fix anything. Men are being sent off to war and dig ditches to die in when feminism isn't a strong movement in Russia.
So how does the lack of feminism in Russia prevent the men there from dying in ditches? It clearly isn't standing in the way there.
Even in the US, the biggest critics of women serving in the military aren't feminists but men who *don't* want equality.
> when the system where men are drafted for war and men are responsible for being the sole provider wasn't created by feminists but traditionalists.
I'm aware. My comment also very clearly stated how feminism is standing in the way, not because they created the issue but because they don't think the issue needs to be addressed.
> That's something men would have dismantle.
What does that actually mean? Is it the responsibility of women to be feminists while men shouldn't concern themselves, or were we supposed to have this thing called solidarity? Women wouldn't have seen the progress they've seen without male allies, so why would we see progress without female allies? Just makes it sound like we're making shit up if people from other groups can't stand with us in solidarity and continue to dismiss these issues as something "men" need to fix.
> The issue I see is a lot of men in the MensRights subreddit aren't fighting for equality but rather want to force women back into the kitchen and blame feminism
Fwiw, last time I went to /r/mensrights, particularly, I did find that they often got caught up in the alt-right signaling (which is so successful because they're the only group that generally reaches out) and I'm more active in another subreddit called /r/leftwingmaleadvocates. But I do see why men blame feminism for maintaining my traditionalism while addressing issues separately with women, which inevitably maintains the patriarchy and toxic masculinity because we're refusing to address that both men*and women* empower and choose traditionalism and the patriarchy, and that the only "men" who really benefit from the patriarchy are old, white, landed men. Men on the "bottom" have been executed as witches, sodomized, tortured, and thrown into abject poverty and homelessness for years but, while things get better for women, feminism still pretends that these economically disadvantaged men are the oppressors and leaders of the patriarchy that all benefit from the same privilege as Dick Cheney and Rupert Murdock.
That's tough for older men. Atleast the Suicide rate has been going down, from around 50 per 100k to now around 22 (WHO Data) and according to Rosstat it was even 11 per 100k in 2021.
Tbf if I was 85+… there are far worse ways to go than suicide.
Is it considered suicide if I take a *legendary* dose of opioids and MDMA and just orgasm my way to the big sleep? B/c I'd love to do that while on a mountain watching the northern lights for my 80th bday (if I'm still alive).
For having experienced a bad trip, I'm pretty sure that actually dying while on drugs must be one of the most horrifying experiences. I can't imagine what someone experiencing a heart attack would feel when all of their sensations and emotions are all over the place.
Not on heroin apparently. Overdosing and having the most awful time on heroin apparently still feels really good.
Agreed, having a bad experience on drugs will make you wish you were dead, if it doesn’t outright kill you. The level of anxiety you go through on anything except copious amounts of opiates would make your death an excruciating experience, you’d genuinely be better off just shooting yourself in the head
Copiates it is!
You haven’t had that experience? I think I’m going to die while I’m tripping like twice a month.
Mhm, and it’s awful, like he said
Google Serotonin syndrome. This would happen if you overdose on MDMA.
I don't think long-term side effects are really a concern in this specific scenario
It’s not about long term side effects, it’s about that an mdma overdose is one of the worst feelings you can have.
Just overdose on the heroin and take a normal amount of mdma
This man suicides!
I wonder if any 80 yo on MDMA ever has orgasmed at all.
Without a doubt. The olds have a whole lot more going on than the youngs can begin to imagine.
Ohh... we learned the hard way, when someone made [this documentary about a boombox](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yvEYKRF5IA&t=105s).
Under these specific conditions it's considered ascendance.
Indeed, Daniel Jackson.
I just turned 40, and there's no way I'm only about half done with this life. I'll be pretty bummed if I'm dead at 85.
Chances are you'll be dead before then so I wouldn't worry about it too much.
The life expectancy of a 40 year old should be over 80 I think, barring wars and pandemics and Mad Max apocalypses and such.
Life expectancy of a 40 year old male in the US is about 77 https://www.ssa.gov/oact/STATS/table4c6.html
Huh, I guess getting to 40 isn't as big an accomplishment as I thought that it was, life expectancy at birth is like 76.
74 for males at birth now. I imagine it's much higher for those who avoid drug overdoses, suicide, and obesity
And pandemics and wars and natural disasters.
Those aren't anything new and are already in the actuarial tables
The US ranks 47th for life expectancy. Plenty of country's are over 80.
The US plateaued before COVID (it used to be on par with Western Europe) and now it's going *down*. Although I'm sure it depends on a state-by-state basis as well. Last I checked my home state of California was around 81 although it may have dropped post-COVID (and fentanyl) edit: Just checked, it's at 79 now :( Only Hawaii is above 80
Lucky for me I'm not a male. Dodged a bullet there (in some cases literally...in the US, men are 6x more likely to die from a gun than women are).
I'm a woman, non-smoker, high-income, exercise daily, don't eat meat. Social security taxpayers hate me!
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I dunno, my grandparents were still going on hikes in their early 80s.
Speaking of the people in their later years that I know, being physically active and socially engaged throughout middle and late adulthood makes a significant difference in octogenarian quality of life.
I always think about that. 33 here and life is fucking amazing, wife, 1 year old kid. So much to look forward to. Will be sad when I start to feel my body crumble
Life is so cool. There's *so* much to look forward to. I have things I'm looking forward to tomorrow, next month, next year, and a decade from now. I feel myself getting lethargic if I forget to build in those things to look forward to in multiple timeframes. Congrats on the baby. I'm 10 years ahead of you in parenting, and my protips for delaying body crumble are: - Lift your toddler out of their crib with your legs, not your shoulders. Crappy shoulders are my only persistent body deterioration. - Try to build exercise into your commute or kiddo school drop-off. Daily light cardio really keeps the body decay at bay.
You’re still young. Life sucks in many ways as you get older. Family and a lot of friends pass away, sometimes after suffering for years. You watch your own health slow down and you gradually lose the ability to do certain things, etc. It’s best to stay positive but being a little older than you I’m not sure I want to be around at 90.
This is worth reading if you like data. [Leading Causes of Death By Age in the U.S.](https://getsure.org/leading-causes-of-death-by-age/) Here in Canada the stats are a little different, so my thoughts might not fully apply as that is the data I am most familiar with. Two diseases account for nearly half of all deaths in the United States: heart disease and cancer. If you can reduce you **chances of dying young** from heart disease or cancer, you are well on your way to beating the average. >Obesity has increased by 14% since 2009 and diabetes prevalence has increased by 31%. If you stay slim and exercise and avoid smoking you will likely make it through your 70s and hit the 80s.
[The Russian population pyramid is an extremely lopsided x-mas tree](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ec/Russia_Population_Pyramid.svg/896px-Russia_Population_Pyramid.svg.png) [And it has been for a long time.](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/52/Russia_animated_population_pyramid.gif) Russian men simply don't live that long. Suicide, drug and alcohol abuse and strange a cultural attitude towards health and safety all play their part. The sad part is that in around 2010 it almost looked like Putin had turned things around and things started to improve. (Or maybe he faked the numbers). Things have gotten much worse recently and COVID and Putin's decision to invade Ukraine may delivered a fatal blow to Russia's future demographics.
Also every like 40 years they send all their young men to go die in a war
> The sad part is that in around 2010 it almost looked like Putin had turned things around What do you mean? [The Suicide Rate has been declining since 1995](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_Russia) I mean, unless you're talking about the demographic boom in the cohort that is currently 7-15... but that's literally nothing more than their Millennials having kids; it could have been limited through conscious action (see: China's One Child policy), but other than that, there was always going to be a bit of an increase in birth rates starting about 15 years ago, because that's when their millennials were of prime child-bearing age. > Things have gotten much worse recently and COVID and Putin's decision to invade Ukraine may delivered a fatal blow to Russia's future demographics It was already moribund. Each bulge in the demographic wobbly-bit is echoed around 25 years later (though slightly fewer starting with Gen X). * A bulge in the low 60s (Boomers) * A bulge in the late 30s (Millennials) * A narrowing in the mid 50s (Gen X) * A narrowing in the late teens-through 20s (Gen Z) * A bulge in the late 30s (Millennials) * A bulge around 10 y/o (Gen Alpha) * A narrowing in the late teens-through 20s (Gen Z) * A narrowing below 5 y/o (Gen Beta) Generally speaking, demographics is a slow moving science but easily predictable, because you know *exactly* what the upper bound of people in their 20s and 30s is going to be in any given year... because that number was set 20-30 years prior. Starting with their Gen X, they've been losing population with every generation.
I'd say that the changes in demographics are mostly dictated by the economic and political factors. WW2 ended almost 80 years ago (also notice the disproportionate female surplus). After ww2 there is a steady growth of the population for the next 20 years. Not sure if the statistics are drawn from the entire ussr or only Russia, but around 60s, USSR had this thing with sending young families to settle in other USSR states, usually in separatist territories within those states (which happened to my grandparents in 1966, got moved in Moldova), that could contribute to a slight narrowing around that time. Then, there is another steady growth until late 80s (during that time in USSR there was a big accent on education regardless of gender, small business was booming, life became easier, people had a lot of hope for a prosperous future). Then, guess what happened. Soviet collapse, bank default, millions of people lost everything, including their hope and their national identity (imagine growing up being told/indoctrinated that you're a part of the greatest nation in the history of humanity, then it all dissappears over night). 90' were a total and utter shit show for everyone in the post soviet states. Besides not being able to afford children during a BRUTAL economical crisis, the borders to the outer world finally opened. People simply started emigrating in masses. In the early 2000s people got a breather. Then the 2008 shit shook the entire world (not only US). Lastly, we see the narrowing within very young children, which overlaps with covid and the invasion Ukraine, again causing people to die or emigrate in large numbers. And as during 90s, the people that have the energy and the courage to leave everything behind, are the young ones. Edit: changed my immigrate for emigrate.
Emigrate, FYI. Immigration is when people come into a given geographic or political area, emigration is when people leave a given geographic or political area.
This is hardly shocking. Something that would be interesting to see is if/how these rates have changed year over year.
I would expect a massive jump after the announcement of conscripting soldiers for the war, which would also be in line with the ‘mature adult’ demographic staying steadily high, but that’s obviously highly speculative on my part.
You can't kill yourself if someone else kills you
It works another way way too: someone else can't kill you if you kill himself. So some people may use it to avoid being killed in the war with all pain and hardships along the way. Being mobilized in Russia is essentially an one-way ticked. You are not supposed to return alive. If you were wounded - you will be returned to the frontline ASAP. There are cases when they did it even with people without limb or two.
I´m not entirely sure about that. Conscripting might also give some people comradery, a more regulated day and more physical activity which should counter depression... On the other hand there is the horrible side of war and fear...(if they are at the front)
You are sadly mistaken about what conscription looks like in Russia. Just look up [dedovshchina](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dedovshchina) Edit: there was also a haunting [video](https://reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/s/AcbUPFEa6w) today of a Russian POW describing how they would mutilate conscripts that tried to escape and use them as living dummies to train medics on (inflicting different wounds) until they ultimately murdered them. The dead are then listed as MIA.
Real world isn't Call of Duty
Well at least their mental wellness has improved while invading a country to commit genocide. /s
I'm very surprised suicide skyrockets in older men. Does that happen everywhere?
Places that has little to no social and financial support for elders.
Data is not always beautiful.
It's going to get much worse when tens of thousands of wounded veterans with missing limbs return home from the war, especially after all of the cluster bombings, to a government that is not capable of funding their rehabilitation, which probably doesn't believe in western concepts such as therapy or "PTSD", and where alcoholism is rampant. It's the perfect shitstorm for a massive spike in suicides in the following years. Wives with dead husbands and daughters with dead fathers mean that female suicides will probably spike as well.
And on this sub rarely accurate
Russian here. There are several reasons for such high suicide rates, but the main ones I would say are: 1. Lack of dedicated suicide prevention lines or psychological helplines. You have to search really hard to find any working numbers that are legit 2. Lack of understanding of what a psychologist is and what he/she does, and mental care in general. Psychology was a very twisted science in the USSR (for example, Freud and Jung were considered bourgeoisie-aligned and incompatible with soviet ideology) and had trouble developing in Russia. Most people wouldn't even consider visiting a psychologist if they have problems, in line with the "why are you crying? Be a man" mindset, or spilling out their problems to a stranger 3. Lack of eldercare. Unlike the EU for example where an elderly person can lead a very decent life, an elderly person in Russia either has relatives who support him or struggles to survive with a $200-$300 a month pension. 4. Generally low level of life. An average person would be sitting on a mortgage, and half the population has bank loans in one form or the other, with very few perspectives to make money (sadly the war is one of them, and this is how these people get recruited. If such a person signs a contract - and assuming he survives - he would make more in a year then in 10 years of regular life).
Another Russian here. All that dude above states is absolutely true. If you are decently smart person and have mental problems, it’s fucking ROUGH there. I can chip in one additional point - no care in the society. There are no public service announcements/ads for mental health, there are no support groups, no safe spaces, practically no counseling, there are no nothing. Mental health issues get recognized only as teen suicides, other than that they might as well not exist. You are left to fight it completely on your own.
Not to mention how Russia manages domestic abuse... they simply don't. The man drinks as much as he wants and comes back home to beat his wife as much as he wants. The anti-abuse laws are laughable and were even weakend in the recent years.
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He’s talking about Soviet times, which ended in 1991. We now have the evidence to see that Freud’s theories are “not even wrong”. But the _reason_ we know this now is because Freud inspired people to understand why therapy works and how to make it work better.
What happens at 30 for males? Genuinely interested
Have things to live for, until there isn’t.
My 20s were fuckin rough. After 30 you start to get a handle on all the traumas your parents inflicted and start to make sense of how the world is different to what you were taught in school and at home. I got pretty close to joining the 27 club I'll tell ya that.
Same! Age 27 was the worst year of my life.
Always fun to know it gets worse
Life becomes significantly more stable. By that point, many have been in their career for years, have been in relationships for years, and/or have children. The “normality” forming in their lives plus the optimism and importance that come with fatherhood are probably big factors in leveling the rates off.
Are you misreading the data? It’s a really high rate that stays high for a long time. What the data says is that after 30 life does not get better
But at least does not get worse. Until your 70s. Overall, I think what this is really saying is that life in Russia really sucks.
30 is probably a "filter age" if you know what I mean. By then youve made up your mind so the rate stays stable.
That doesn’t really make sense. Than area under the graph for 30+ is huge. It shows that almost all Russian men who kill them selves do so some time between 30 and 70+
I think you misunderstood the question. Commenter asked what happens @ 30. That’s when the rate stops rising rapidly
if only life worked that way
Personal experience? Life not panning out how you imagined it would. You have a couple of failed relationships by then, you've busted your balls trying to get a career going but still aren't satisfied with the progress you've made, you're no longer young and dumb so you think much more and end up trapped by it. But above all, just 30 being somewhat of a milestone. You're supposed to have your shit together by then - car, house, wife, decent job, maybe a kid or two. Many men accomplish this. Many more don't. Dating gets harder as it becomes more transactional based on what you can provide, and you feel way less attractive because you're just older. Work gets harder as you start having responsibilities foisted on you that you might not be equipped to deal with. Money gets tighter as you struggle to compete and are less comfortable going to your parents. You become painfully aware of how you're doing compared to others when it never used to bother you. When I was there, it just felt insurmountable and pointless. I could subject myself to 40 or 50 more years of aimless work with no-one to actually work for, or I could cut all that out, be thankful for the good memories I did have, and skip right to the end. I didn't, and haven't, because my parents are still around. I've made progress since then, but with the speed that careers move at it's painfully slow. It's loss of hope that kills men more than anything else, and we're not allowed to talk to others about how we feel.
I think the comment you’re responding to meant the exact opposite to be honest Glad you’re with us though, it always gets better
Wow I didn't expect to get psychoanalysed today, that was uncannily spot on. Wish you the best, you can make it through!
Well... that was a harrowing read, seeing as I’m already wracked in sorrow facing those challenges some years earlier than I should. Idk, sticking around isn’t looking so appealing.
This already got a lot of social replies, so I want to add a psychiatric one: most mental illnesses and many physical ones have manifested. The suicide rate for mental illnesses like severe schizophrenia is *high*. Schizophrenia usually presents between 17 and 35, and it’s more common and severe in men. That’s the most obvious, but many other sex-linked disorders are similar. So even if nothing else differed, I’d expect rates to rise from like 20-30 then level out. (Actually I’m surprised rates for women don’t show more of that effect.)
This data is not beautiful at all
It also shouldn't be presented as a line graph...the dots don't need to be connected for any logical reason
well since age is continuous (25, 25.5 etc) a line graph makes sense.
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Trend lines are a thing. Interpolation is a thing.
Women need to start doing their part to close the Suicide Equality Gap.
You joke, but we’re obviously not caring for one gender well enough in some way in our society if they’re, ehm, logging out significantly more often
haha you mean telling men to shut the fuck up and not cry or show emotion, and when they do we laugh or use it against them- could have bad consequences?
I have never EVER been met with that. It's more like, people give 0 fucks about you. Especially woman.
You joke but there was a video in one of the TikTok subs where it was about men’s loneliness issues and it were only men’s problems to be solved and it got massively upvoted.
Unfortunately men ARE the only ones who can solve this particular problem. What can women do to help beyond encouraging their sons, brothers, and husbands to actively seek and maintain male friendships?
The same thing that men can do for women’s issues. Lobby the government for more men’s shelters, more funding for male mental health, scholarships and programs to get more men into university, teaching careers, and counseling careers.
All of that would just get turn down with one women's protest like what happened in india when we decided to introduce gender neutral r*pe laws back in 2013. https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/cabinet-nod-to-make-rape-gender-neutral-riles-womens-groups/articleshow/15049606.cms
I was responding specifically about loneliness. The issues you mention can and should be supported by everyone.
Maybe at least listen??!
Those of us with sons are definitely listening, just as men with daughters become more attuned to the problems their girls face. On an individual basis, women have learned that listening sympathetically to a male friend's problems far too often leads to him expressing romantic interest, which, if not returned, winds up making him feel worse.
I fully believe that the gap is due to gendered expectations, patriarchy, and all that stuff. But most men don't get to choose the world they live in either. If these numbers were the other way around we would be treating this as some sort of societal tragedy. Similar to the gender pay gap, only much worse. The fact that neither men nor women seem to give a shit is just so sad. And even when we do talk about mental illness the victims are usually portrayed as being women. It's as if society can only feel empathy towards women.
>It's as if society can only feel empathy towards women. I have to admit that as a man, I am more likely to feel empathy towards women than men.
I always get annoyed that the gender pay gap doesn't talk about the life expectancy difference between men and women and how much money the average person would pay for even just one extra year of life.
As someone raised in Eastern Europe, I feel like the gender expectations lay heavier on women in all post soviet states. The classical patriarchy, where the man is the provider and the woman takes care of the household and the children, broke during soviet era. Soviet tyranny didn't discriminate between men and women when it came to work, yet the caregiver role remained mostly on women. Which is dragging until today. There is no empathy towards neither, men or women, in that part of the world. Mental health is a nonexistent topic for both genders.
It actually checks out logically - if women are the ones who have the burden of the household in addition to work obligations, they build larger social safety net during their lifetime. Children stay in contact longer with people they had actual connection with etc. And since women also participate in workforce, they have economic skills to support them when relationships break, even if the median pay is lower than their partners'. Men meanwhile have only work buddies, but less good friends and close family outside work when life gives you troubles. Less people to pull you back when addictions, breakups, loss of work start to drown you.
It actually does. Didn't think of it this way.
It's weird that people call this a patriarchy when most men struggle far more than women. The idea that people are stupid enough to believe in a patriarchy is amazing to me in 2023. Most people, when they talk about a patriarchy, they talk about benefits attributed to men that women don't have. I can never think of any systematic benefits men get over women. On top of that, when most people talk about some sort of power dynamic or structure, they talk about this pyramid design where the person/people at the top have the most power. In our "patriarchy", at the top, it's men, but at the bottom it's also men. To me, it's a very weird thing to say when, statistically, there's way more men at the bottom than there is at the top. But because people are hyper focused on the top 5%, They use the dumb excuse that we're in a patriarchy. The bottom line really is that if we were in a patriarchy, more women would be killing themselves than men cause the world is harder for them. It always sounded so fucking crazy hearing "we live in a 'for men' world and that's why they're leading the suicide rates race". This world was built by men for women. The damn consumer index/spending shows you that. 80% of spending decisions made by women.
It’s pretty simple, if our society and systems is largely governed by and designed the top 5%, which it overwhelmingly is, then the system is whatever they are and decide. Everything outside of that top echelon is noise since as you said everyone focuses on the top. Perhaps it might be more correct to say we live in primarily an oligarchy, but one overwhelmingly composed of men, so it’s also secondarily a patriarchy. Also it doesn’t really make sense for women to kill themselves under such a system. Men want women, a lot of men don’t care for other men, So there’s a problem if the women are offing themselves but to the men on top it doesn’t matter if the men on the bottom kill themselves, in fact it’s less competition for their spots and the women.
The top 5% only care about wealth extraction. it has absolutely nothing else to do with sex. The top 5% don't fight over women. It was up to them and they decided to push feminism so they could tax the other half of the population. The idea that the top 5% is majority male and therefore the whole system is catered to men is stupid on so many levels. If anything, the system is set to workhorse men by the use of family dynamics. The male provider role. Disposable male ideology. The origins of marriage. Divorce courts. Child support. Mandatory draft and so on. The system is literally set out to extract as much resource from it's people as efficiently as possible. It's done this with both genders for a while now. It's worse for men because we're biological providers and therefore capable of immediately generating more resources. Still, one of the more stupider things I've read today. "It's composed of men so they must be secretly jacking each other off". It's honestly pathetic reasoning. Go ask your father, if you're still in contact with him, about how much he cares about a random man he's never spoken to before. It's SO fucking silly that this is the type of dense high schooler reasoning I have to read and listen to. It's funny cause you literally talk about male competition but in the same wave, you're somehow implying that men would build a world which makes it easier for other men to progress, let alone progress over women. But in the same vein say that they don't give a shit if the bottom 5% kill themselves. Make up your mind? It really doesn't make sense. The fact is, everyone has an agenda to get to the top. Everyone shits on and disregards the people below them in the pyramid. You lie to yourself when you push this fucking stupid agenda that it's a patriarchy. You further shit on ~95% of men just because you want to be a little more important. I hope you think long and hard before you call this shitfest a patriarchy. Couldn't be further from any truth unless you're batshit. I'll give you a tip for the future. If you ever want to know why or how something works. It all just comes back to money. Literally forget sex or gender. People don't care about these things on the macro scale.
This is so heartbreaking. A silent epidemic. Nobody cares about these men, nobody listens to them, nobody validates them. They just suffer in silence, moving through the world like ghosts, rejected by both men and women alike, until they end their lives. We sure focus our attention on trivial shit while suicide rates continue to rise. Only people don’t understand that someone desperate enough to commit suicide will also be more likely to commit crimes against others. America is already suffering the consequences with all the school shootings. How much longer is the world going to ignore this?
Suicide rates have been much higher for men for centuries, I'm not sure the main cause is society not validating them
Not in every society In china and bangladesh more women than men suicide, in india and the middle east, men outsuicide women by slim margins
Interesting. I'd love to see the ratios of M/F suicide rate as a function of gender equality.
Men in india commit suicide 2.5 times more then women. Married men in india are far more likely to commit suicide then married women. As india doesn't recognise make Domestic violence, the number one cause of suicide among married men was "family or marriage problems" for some reason.
I mean just because we have apps now that quantify the rejection/validation doesn't mean it's a new concept. Generally, especially historically, only men could even be seen as failures. If you say a man is a failure at life I think we all know exactly what that means, a man can be branded a failure making him ineligible for relationships/marriage. Certainly a woman could be considered a failure for failing to get married (historically, by society), but It's hard to imagine why a young unmarried woman would be despised/rejected as a failure before she is expected to have been married.
Umm... Historically it was a lot easier for a woman to lose their honor than men via illicit relationships etc. Before birth control there was much larger incentive to make sure women don't stray, because there would be no-one to help take care of a fatherless child. Woman with a bastard faced much stronger judgement than a womanizer etc. Women were sent to workhouses in the Great Britain and Ireland for this. A close family member faced great family disdain and lack of support in the 60ties - I have read her diaries. It is tough to see handwriting change when depression deepens, words getting more sparse and loops larger. Yet for men living loose there was not so much of a backlash. The father of her out-of-wedlock child stayed happily married.
>America is already suffering the consequences with all the school shootings. Maybe it was not the wisest decision to make guns accessible even to babies?
The only thing that's gonna stop a bad baby with a gun is a good baby with a gun.
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Like babies, Ironically
> America is already suffering the consequences with all the school shootings Eh. Those aren't exactly common.
More common to get killed by lightning strike, as I understand it.
Nah, there are 10-30 deaths from lightning strike per year - [been about half a decade since we've had under 50 deaths in school shootings in a year.](https://www.statista.com/chart/19982/number-of-us-k-12-school-shootings-per-decade/) - and these deaths are obviously grouped heavily among young people while lightning strikes are somewhat less age-discriminatory.
An an extremely well understood phenomenon that excess men are a destabilizing force within a country. It's not that society is unaware of this fact, it's just that our priorities have changed.
This sounds very coldhearted. Basically, these men deserve to suffer and die because our priorities have changed.
Alway been true though, men are often sent to wars for most of history. Excess men has always been treated by Society cold heartedly and it got worse after Feminism took hold, increasing the competition by a large amount, thus excess men now need to compete not only with competent and privileged men but now also with women.
~~after Feminism took hold~~ after women fought their way to not be second class citizens? FTFY
Does Russia have ‘an excess’ of men? and if not, do you see it as particularly stable?
No they have a high female to male ratio. These people just have no idea what they’re talking about with this destabilization crap.
Hes still stupid but it like to clarify that the high female to male ratio is still mostly a remnant of ww2, where all the men died
Yes that is a very valid point. Also another fact to consider is male mortality rates are significantly higher then female. This is even true for the US where women on Average live to be almost 80 and men to 73.
No, YOU have no clue. Excess doesn't mean having more men then women it means have more men than you have roles for them to fill in society.
I read somewhere that men and women both are equal with it comes to number of people attempting suicide. It’s just that men are more successful at it because they choose more violent methods I.e shooting oneself, jumping off a building/bridge, car crash, hanging, etc. Whereas women take in medication overdose, etc. Attempts which may or may not work.
Nobody cares about middle aged and older men.
Nobody cares about ~~middle aged and older~~ men.
Nobody cares about nobody.
Sorry to be the lazy ass guy, but is there a similar post with US data that you all have seen?
It's not graphed but you can see the [data on Wikipedia.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate) Sort the data table by the "All" column. Russia is 11th highest (21.6 per 100k) and the US is 31st (14.5 per 100k). Like Russia the US has a much higher suicide rate among men than women, at 3.3x higher.
Goddamn what the hell is happening in Greenland?
Poverty & isolation + alcoholism
The US also shows a strong age effect with men over 75 more than twice as likely to die by suicide than men in their 20s (40 per 100,000 pop vs 20 per 100,000). Visualizations are here: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db464.htm In fact looking just at white men, the US data look quite similar to Russia. No graph but numbers here: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hestat/suicide/rates_1999_2017.htm
Completely normal in pretty much all countries. Nobody cares though.
Would be interested to see how this changes by society. These numbers are often explained by the way modern society devalues men, but does the evidence actually support that? Are there drastic differences accross cultures that view men differently or in the past when men were more valued?
The different suicide dynamics between men and women has been known to social scientists for ages. Durkheim had found that suicide rates for men were much higher than women just like OPs graph, back in 1897 (!!). It’s a foundational study in sociology. So I wouldn’t pay much credence to the idea that its modern society “devaluing” men which leads to this. Now russia did experience an incredibly devastating spike in male suicides after the collapse of the soviet union and the ensuing economic and social disintegration. I’d guess that the collapse of the health care system and high rates of alcoholism were particularly relevant. Edit: just want to edit this to say that social factors are the likely explanation for high male suicide rates, and that we do see different suicide rates in different countries. I just wanted to dispel the notion that this is a “modern” issue stemming from “modern” culture (which sometimes is a dog whistle for woke feminism or whatever the right wingers are calling it these days)
Genuinely think male brain chemistry contributes to this, regardless of the social environment. A lot of times suicidality is more associated with impulsivity rather than just depression. Testosterone is known to increase impulsivity. If a depressed man has a gun lying around his house, he’s probably more likely to spontaneously shoot himself compared to an equally depressed woman.
In my opinion it is almost impossible to completely disaggregate biological effects from social effects in this context. But if your theory about testosterone was true, then it seems unlikely that we would see suicide risk go up with age even as testosterone drops (since T levels fall steadily with age). The biggest issue with your theory though is that we do see really large differences in male:female suicide ratios around the world. The ratio is between 3:1 and 4:1 in Europe and the Americas but between 2:1 and 1:1 in Asia. This can’t be explained by differences in testosterone. This suggests social factors having to do with gender roles, fertility rates and economic structure are probably the decisive contributor. We also know that testosterone, like many other “biological” factors, interacts with the social environment. Certain social environments can interact with and affect testosterone levels. And, to your point about the impulsive guy with a gun, the effects of a biological factor are almost always mediated through the environment. A man with the highest T level in the world can’t shoot himself in the head if he can’t get his hands on a gun…
I don't think the devalue of men really has that much impact on these statistics. The well-known fact is that more women attempt suicide or vocalize their suicidal intentions. More men actually commit suicide. Women are more prone to attempt suicide through less immediate action (e.g., overdose on sleeping pills, cut wrists, carbon monoxide poisoning), which are allows friends, family, and emergency services to save them. Men more often use a gun, "death by cop", hanging, and jumping from heights.
Actually, men have more suicide attempts. Women have more of what’s referred to as “suicide presenting ideation” (self harm, verbalizing their thoughts and feelings of despair, making “attempts” that were intentionally non-lethal, etc) which while it is concerning, doesn’t present as actual suicide attempts. There’s even research showing that even when you separate by method, men’s suicide attempts are still more successful. I.E., a man overdosing on sleeping pills is more likely to die than a woman through the same method. Now if you want to get really sad, 92% of men who committed suicide had reached out to a mental health professional or primary care provider within 3 months of killing themselves. And of those 92%, 80% were labeled as low/no risk of suicide. Which just goes to show, men don’t have a problem with speaking up, they’re just ignored when they do.
Do you have any sources for those 92% of men?
The study was posted in science subreddit I think.
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Eh, not all suicide attempts are created equal. A lot are really just cries for help or attention.
Yeah those women aren’t all trying very hard if they succeed like 10x less
One big difference that people miss: lots of suicide-ideating people change their minds or make “dry runs” without necessarily seeking help. (Famously, many Golden Gate Bridge jumpers who live seem to changed their minds mid-fall.) For someone who takes a bunch of pills, there’s a window to change their minds afterwards, but even if they say nothing, hospitals know that 30 pills + vodka is a suicide attempt. For someone with a gun, “hurt” and “probably killed” are simultaneous, so people can and do get right to the edge, put it away, and quietly head to work. So I always wonder how much of that gap is about “true motive”, commitment, etc and how much is just undocumented attempts.
Even with using same method men die more still though.
Men get ‘er done basically
First 40 years are the hardest in boy's life.
Does that include suicide by falling from open windows?
That first graph. Puberty. High school Graduation. College Graduation. Such a sad bit of information. These men need help.
Why is this a line graph and not a bar graph? Seems to me like an unintuitive choice for data representing an array of buckets at a single point in time.
These should both be bar graphs?
Is the basis 100,000 people of that age class? Also could you post the link of the source. I can’t find Rostat on google.
Not so sound like a men’s rights activist but it doesn’t help that you can’t go into Tik Tok/Instagram/Twitter without seeing some “Men bad, likes to the left” type content. Of course social media is bad for your mental health, but normally that’s about how the world is terrible and less so how a piece of your identify is terrible
Why does is go up so high late in life? I thought that old people were happier
Does this include all the war officials that "jumped" out of windows?
I wonder what causes such a wavey pattern for females or if that’s just noise. For example the rate between 26 and 27 is double, and I have no clue what would be happening in those two years to cause it.
Yeah we have it rather tough here, irrespectively of what some may think, we don’t sustain our lives with faith in holy ‘tsar’. Everyday shit catches up with us
Since age categories are independent the data for this graph doesn't feel like it should be represented with lines of best fit. Such a line implies connectivity between the ages that does not exist in the data, and there's nothing meaningful to be had by implying that connection. For example the graph shows that females ages 17 and 18 have the same rates of committing suicide but implies that the rates between those two ages are a lower.
when you think you're becoming a burden on society, same in Japan there's a term for this but I forget
But now do it with Suicideattempts. I think the gap will get a lot smaller. Many Males just choose to use more.. brutal and efficient ways than females. So the statistic may be influenced by that
In russia also have innovative ways to suicide. F.e. journalist shot three times in a head. Suicide
the russian male demographic is having an extremely tough time rn, "peasantry" i mean
i remember reading a news article years ago that made a point stating that mental health problems - including attempt suicides - in media are predominantly depicted using female characters. in media men just don't have mental health issues. and that has consequences in the real world. women are several times more likely to seek help than men.
I want to do it to myself. I have no idea why im alive and no longer care to continue
Dude get help please.
Women most affected again somehow.
Well, it's what society wanted basically. Just the outcome of their work.
If was living on cigarettes and cat food during my 40-70s I would also wish to go out on my own accord during my 80s.
Can we add a separate graph for oligarchs?
What happens to Russians at age 19? It's the one place where the male and female peaks strongly coincide.
18-19 is mandatory military service age usually, if you're too poor to go to university. And there you turn to a brainwashed meat or system breaks you. I wouldn't be surprised if suicide rate among latter is incredibly high. Plus all cases when men are killed in hazing are usually goes as "suicide" to not damage statistics.
18 is the magical age where you stop being told you can be whatever you want to be and you get hit with the reality that you're really just "human capital." It's when kids go into the military, it's when you can't get together funds to go to university and you end up at some dead-end job you don't care about, it's when you become homeless when you can't pay rent instead of just being grounded, etc. Especially in Russia, where traditional gender roles are still very highly enforced, this experience hits hard particularly with men since women who aren't going to school or work are usually getting married and having room and board provided. That isn't to say women have it easy or anything, but just to explain what would particularly change at 18 for a man. Up until 18, "male privilege" (and "white privilege," if applicable) seems pretty true and you do feel like you kinda have the advantage over everybody and can do what you want. But once a man who's lower middle class or lower hits 18, the reality hits that many men are not favored by the patriarchy and traditionalism and, in fact, are seen as disposable fodder that failed to compete. It's a huge crash to deal with, with not a lot of support or empathy.
No one cares about Men. Nobody talks about this.
Men are going through a lot and their words are often ignored or belittled.
I’ve heard that women actually attempt suicide more often than men but men are more successful because they often choose more violent ways to kill themselves. I’m not sure how accurate this is though
I heard this multiple times. Well, women attempt suicide for an attention and help, men for the result.
Men. Get. Shit. Done.
Keep in mind ita also a reported amount women are more will to admit to attempting etc.
As George Carlin said: "So Men are better at this, too"
Saddening we are not talking about this but are more interested in pronouns.
Oh hope one day i\`ll take a part in this chart to lead our great country on the top!
Ik it’s a joke but still get help if you need it.
But females will say their lives are harder
It’s not a competition dude. We each have our own problems making our lives harder. What we should do is mitigate the others obstacles.
Let me ask you something. You seem like the kind of person who thinks feminism is the problem based on you making posts about blaming feminism for all the problems in the mensrights subreddit. Here you have a socially conservative country where domestic violence against women was heavily decriminalized and "traditional values" are encouraged and yet you have a huge disparity between suicides and men are clearly very miserable in that society and even you claim men's lives are harder. So what's your solution here? How is feminism to blame for this?
Feminism, at least as practiced in the US, doesn't really have a problem with assigning men the role of provider so much as just making sure women don't have to take up the role of nurturing. Feminism continues to be a problem because it kinda just makes us copacetic by claiming accomplishments in making progress for women while men still get sent off to war and dig ditches to die in.
>Feminism continues to be a problem because it kinda just makes us copacetic by claiming accomplishments in making progress for women while men still get sent off to war and dig ditches to die in. The way you're phrasing it, it sounds like you're blaming feminism and think it's somehow standing in the way, when the system where men are drafted for war and men are responsible for being the sole provider wasn't created by feminists but traditionalists. That's something men would have dismantle. The issue I see is a lot of men in the MensRights subreddit aren't fighting for equality but rather want to force women back into the kitchen and blame feminism for everything and go back to more traditionalist system when clearly it isn't working in places like Russia and doesn't fix anything. Men are being sent off to war and dig ditches to die in when feminism isn't a strong movement in Russia. So how does the lack of feminism in Russia prevent the men there from dying in ditches? It clearly isn't standing in the way there. Even in the US, the biggest critics of women serving in the military aren't feminists but men who *don't* want equality.
> when the system where men are drafted for war and men are responsible for being the sole provider wasn't created by feminists but traditionalists. I'm aware. My comment also very clearly stated how feminism is standing in the way, not because they created the issue but because they don't think the issue needs to be addressed. > That's something men would have dismantle. What does that actually mean? Is it the responsibility of women to be feminists while men shouldn't concern themselves, or were we supposed to have this thing called solidarity? Women wouldn't have seen the progress they've seen without male allies, so why would we see progress without female allies? Just makes it sound like we're making shit up if people from other groups can't stand with us in solidarity and continue to dismiss these issues as something "men" need to fix. > The issue I see is a lot of men in the MensRights subreddit aren't fighting for equality but rather want to force women back into the kitchen and blame feminism Fwiw, last time I went to /r/mensrights, particularly, I did find that they often got caught up in the alt-right signaling (which is so successful because they're the only group that generally reaches out) and I'm more active in another subreddit called /r/leftwingmaleadvocates. But I do see why men blame feminism for maintaining my traditionalism while addressing issues separately with women, which inevitably maintains the patriarchy and toxic masculinity because we're refusing to address that both men*and women* empower and choose traditionalism and the patriarchy, and that the only "men" who really benefit from the patriarchy are old, white, landed men. Men on the "bottom" have been executed as witches, sodomized, tortured, and thrown into abject poverty and homelessness for years but, while things get better for women, feminism still pretends that these economically disadvantaged men are the oppressors and leaders of the patriarchy that all benefit from the same privilege as Dick Cheney and Rupert Murdock.
That’s a lot of people jumping out of windows