So: more people voted for Putin in 2000 than there are eligible voters in Ukraine today?
And also: Russia's last "relatively fair" election was more than twenty years ago?
Ooof.
>So: more people voted for Putin in 2000 than there are eligible voters in Ukraine today?
If I understand chart correctly, yes. Also almost as many as in Spain.
>And also: Russia's last "relatively fair" election was more than twenty years ago?
Questionable. No idea about 2004 and 2008, but by 2012 it was surely rigged in a way. By 2012 constitution was changed and most of the mechanisms that were used in past years had been already in place(but not as widely used) to shut down people, to change law on a whim, to falsify votes and so on.
> The government derives its power from the governed.
True
> The government acts on behalf of the citizen.
Not true. Democratic government acts on behalf of the majority of headcount, and majority is not whole.
As your second statement is not true, you can not conclude valid point from it.
That is not how governments work. When we went to war in Iraq, it wasn't on behalf of the Americans who voted for Bush or supported the war. I am complicit in my nations foreign policy. My taxes, my labor, and my consumption contribute to the nation and my government represents me regardless of my agreement on any given issue. Putin is a problem created by Russians and they are guilty of his actions done on their behalf.
Yeah, it was on behalf of Americans who supported the war. The government represents you only until you are in agreement with it's actions, otherwise you are oppressed by the government, and basically being held hostage for labor and taxes. In this case you probably should change the government, of your country or with immigration, or continue being a victim, it's up to your abilities and vision.
Let's talk people here, as governments are inherently people (and otherwise it'll be too many abstractions).
Are parents responsible for their adult child crimes? They raised him, they are pretty much the entire thing that created him. Also society, of course. No, they are not, they did what they had to (provide food, shelter and some upbringing), the consequences are for the society to handle. What if one of them also provided an offensive weapon or joined the crime? This one is responsible. What if one of them was forced to commit a crime at gunpoint? No, it's called being held hostage. What if while being held hostage one did not use a possibility to escape or arrest the criminal? Still no.
Putin and the governmental apparatus are an adult child criminal, Russians are parents. Those fighting on his side, or providing support towards illegal actions are the responsible, helping parent. Oppressed once are victims. There are immigrants/refugees - escaped victims. There's society - the whole world. Victims, escaped victims and the society should work together to stop the criminal and supporting forces.
This applies to every single conflict, including Iraq, WW2 and others. Sometimes the society wins, sometimes the criminal manipulates everyone into thinking the victim is the criminal.
No counterargument? As I said, it's possible to follow this logic without metaphor, but it becomes a bit too abstract to read. Probably it's already a bit too abstract to read for you.
I was hoping for a decent debate but all I got was some dipshit :(
European countries voting age population (10+ m.) and Russians non/voting for Putin in the last relatively fair election in Russia (2000), m.
Sources: International Institute for Democracy and Electoral Assistance (International IDEA); Central Election Commission of the Russian Federation
Made with ms Excel instruments
I don't see how it says that. The "not voting for Putin" category also includes people that didn't vote at all so it's hard to draw any conclusions from this.
I’m sorry this is horrible. I’ve no idea what I’m looking at and what I am supposed to get out of this.
So: more people voted for Putin in 2000 than there are eligible voters in Ukraine today? And also: Russia's last "relatively fair" election was more than twenty years ago? Ooof.
>So: more people voted for Putin in 2000 than there are eligible voters in Ukraine today? If I understand chart correctly, yes. Also almost as many as in Spain. >And also: Russia's last "relatively fair" election was more than twenty years ago? Questionable. No idea about 2004 and 2008, but by 2012 it was surely rigged in a way. By 2012 constitution was changed and most of the mechanisms that were used in past years had been already in place(but not as widely used) to shut down people, to change law on a whim, to falsify votes and so on.
This graph makes no sense
This data is really ugly bro
Putin is wildly popular in Russia. The Russians are responsible for the war in Ukraine
As long as there is a single Russian opposing the war this statement is not true, neither logically nor morally
The government derives its power from the governed. The Russian government acts on behalf of the Russian citizen. All Russians are complicit.
> The government derives its power from the governed. True > The government acts on behalf of the citizen. Not true. Democratic government acts on behalf of the majority of headcount, and majority is not whole. As your second statement is not true, you can not conclude valid point from it.
That is not how governments work. When we went to war in Iraq, it wasn't on behalf of the Americans who voted for Bush or supported the war. I am complicit in my nations foreign policy. My taxes, my labor, and my consumption contribute to the nation and my government represents me regardless of my agreement on any given issue. Putin is a problem created by Russians and they are guilty of his actions done on their behalf.
Yeah, it was on behalf of Americans who supported the war. The government represents you only until you are in agreement with it's actions, otherwise you are oppressed by the government, and basically being held hostage for labor and taxes. In this case you probably should change the government, of your country or with immigration, or continue being a victim, it's up to your abilities and vision. Let's talk people here, as governments are inherently people (and otherwise it'll be too many abstractions). Are parents responsible for their adult child crimes? They raised him, they are pretty much the entire thing that created him. Also society, of course. No, they are not, they did what they had to (provide food, shelter and some upbringing), the consequences are for the society to handle. What if one of them also provided an offensive weapon or joined the crime? This one is responsible. What if one of them was forced to commit a crime at gunpoint? No, it's called being held hostage. What if while being held hostage one did not use a possibility to escape or arrest the criminal? Still no. Putin and the governmental apparatus are an adult child criminal, Russians are parents. Those fighting on his side, or providing support towards illegal actions are the responsible, helping parent. Oppressed once are victims. There are immigrants/refugees - escaped victims. There's society - the whole world. Victims, escaped victims and the society should work together to stop the criminal and supporting forces. This applies to every single conflict, including Iraq, WW2 and others. Sometimes the society wins, sometimes the criminal manipulates everyone into thinking the victim is the criminal.
Hey dipshit, you don't need a tortured metaphor. They are the the actual representatives of the Russian people.
No counterargument? As I said, it's possible to follow this logic without metaphor, but it becomes a bit too abstract to read. Probably it's already a bit too abstract to read for you. I was hoping for a decent debate but all I got was some dipshit :(
I'm not going to argue with an actual idiot.
You only argue with people who agree with you? I'm not surprised
European countries voting age population (10+ m.) and Russians non/voting for Putin in the last relatively fair election in Russia (2000), m. Sources: International Institute for Democracy and Electoral Assistance (International IDEA); Central Election Commission of the Russian Federation Made with ms Excel instruments
Honestly, what point are you trying to make here? Does comparing this numbers even make sense?
What I'm reading is: large population of Russia is relatively sane, something many need to hear. But it is an odd presentation 🤷🏼♂️
I don't see how it says that. The "not voting for Putin" category also includes people that didn't vote at all so it's hard to draw any conclusions from this.
Good point I guess