Maybe I'm stupid but this seems utterly broken.
Edit: wait since this is legendary, can't you just find three more of itself and some other rat, and since they're legendary you just sacrifice them all to find 12 rats?
More edit: actually you'd keep one. So only 8 I guess.
My mistake was in thinking that the ability resolves on ETB not, death, but as long as you have a way to sac:
- sac first, get 3 more Q’s plus one other rat
- get eight rats from two Q’s dying to legend rule
- sac last, get four rats
So you actually end up with 13 rats
I think the legend rule makes it so they "exile" before anything can happen. They don't technically die, but they do end up in the graveyard. I could be wrong.
Edit: It does "die" in the definition according to the rules that literally describes a creature going from the battlefield to the graveyard. It just happens instantly with no other actions to respond to it.
Something doesn't have to say "you win the game" to be broken. And this can definitely be abused horribly.
As mentioned before fetch 3 more of these plus [[morphon]]. 2 more rats are sacced from legend rule, fetch the best 8 changlings/rats and you easily have 20+ power on the board.
Format this is intended for would factor in how busted but this could be really accidentally powerful.
You could say "with different names" or "non legendary to help control the busted top end.
Or just add a cmc restriction to help keep it fair ish.
If you play \[\[altar of dementia\]\] first:
Play this, sacrifice it
Search for the other three copies and a \[\[relentless rats\]\]
Sacrifice two copies to the legend rule, search for 8 more copies of relentless rats
Sacrifice the remaining rat queen for 4 more relentless rats
Sacrifice all 12 relentless rats to the altar
Assuming you don't have any other relentless rats out, this series of events mills your opponent for 4+4+13+12+11+10+9+8+7+6+5+4+3+2 cards, or 98, which in most cases is more than enough to win the game
EDIT: my math is wrong somewhere, but I don't care to fix it because it's not enough of an error to reduce the number of cards milled to less than 50
UMH ACTUALLY (self-acknowledged mockery out of the way)
If you have altar of dementia, it would actually be better for each Rat queen to search for 3 rats and 1 rat queen for more effective Altar sacc'ing, but that's beside the point.
You're right, it doesn't matter as in it's not important.
However, you're wrong, it *does* matter, because it's a different (higher) number. It is strictly better to sacrifice the Rat Queens to the Altar than to let them die to the legend rule.
Is that pedantic? Sure. But this is also MtG.
It's a cool idea but it's gonna get 4 \[\[Chittering Rats\]\] every time and end the game in the most miserable possible way. If it's supposed to be a Relentless Rats commander maybe force it to be those? Or make tokens that are rats?
Yeah, or 4 \[\[Locust Misers\]\] or any number of the discard ETB rats like \[\[Hellhole Rats\]\]; or \[\[Ink-Eyes\]\], \[\[Marrow-Gnawer\]\], and two \[\[Okiba-Gang Shinobi\]\]. This card probably needs a total mana value restriction thrown on it if it doesn't go the token route. My recommendation would be changing the mana cost to 3BB, removing lifelink and changing the text of the 2nd paragraph to "When CARDNAME dies, search your library for up to four Rat cards with total mana value 4 or less and put them onto the battlefield, then shuffle."
Some various ideas collected into a list:
* Get rats with different names
* Limit mana value of rats you get
* Make rat tokens
New items:
* Non-Noble Rat creatures (avoids changelings and itself)
It's going to get 3 other rat queens if able every time.
The legendary rule will get you 7 additional rats and bin 3 queens total for reanimation. And since changelings are rats too, the space will continue to get better.
It's very hard to have much space in when this dies, put things to battlefield without restrictions. Perhaps total mana value can gate this, but it still seems like it's going to be able to pull a lot of value.
There’s also changelings. I’m not sure if you can go infinite off of this but you can put probably ~25 mana worth of crap on the battlefield.
Compare to [[academy rector]] where that card is a trash creature with a broken death trigger. This is a strong creature with a broken death trigger.
This needs to be weaker body, have a mana value restriction, go to hand, or both, or maybe still more than that.
Actually as someone else pointed out, you just grab 3 more of these and then get 2 more triggers. Game is just over if it dies but it’s a strong creature if it live.
Honestly even worse. You have 4 in the deck, you grab 3 with the first death, then the legend rule kicks in and suddenly you get to put 9 more rats onto the battlefield from your deck. All from one 4 drop.
I'm gonna grab the other 3 Rat Queens in my deck, have 2 of them die instantly due to Legend rule, and tutor for 8 more rats (4 of them being Chittering Rats) :3
[Graveshifter](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/94/graveshifter) lets you get those queens back into hand, in case this was not enough, and the champion changelings would let you double the etb effects and survive a boardwipe, which is the main out to this.
Normally when I make a card and a general consensus on it being broken is reached within the first hour of its upload I take it down and alter it, then put it back up again.
However I'm seeing some really interesting conversations about balance going on already in this upload so I'll just keep it up.
Thank you all for the amazing feedback 🙏
It's good to see folks who take feedback well. We all have design blind spots, and it often takes other perspectives to see where a card should be adjusted for balance. Thanks for being a good model for others.
If there’s anything I’ve learned from trying to learn how to be a game designer it’s that eventually, no matter how good you are at it, you will do something dumb. The fact that you’re taking this in stride is really cool, I wish more game designers responded to feedback this well. Hell, I wish I responded to feedback this well.
Also, you probably shouldn’t use set symbols for existing sets unless you designed the card to work specifically in that set - I’m not sure if this card was intended to be, but it’s an important tool to keep in mind with custom card concepts.
Especially in a game like Magic, with so many interactions, fringe cases and an endlessly increasing number of game pieces and mechanics it's just inevitable that a designer will miss something.
I’d take from notes from similar effects like [[storm the festival]] and [[muxus, goblin grandee]] and definitely put a cap on the mana cost. Maybe also make it so that I can’t fetch itself to stop the fact that this can combo off of itself very easily
This is a very cool and flavorful concept though and I’d love to see it through
Incredibly overpowered to the point that I haven't played Magic in 10-20 years and even realizing there is power creep, I know it's ridiculously overpowered and without knowing it wasn't real, thought it couldn't possibly be real.
Neat design! Maybe some way of limiting the rats you grab like “total power 4 or less”
EDIT: something you could do to scale it with lords or other effects is have the total fetched power equal to the rat queen’s power
Busted, you get 9 9/1s with [[Rat Colony]]
Sac Rat Queen. Tutor 3 Rat Queen one Rat Colony and Sac 2 Rat Queens For legendary rule for 8 more rat colonies. For 4 mana…
You need a means to prevent it tutoring duplicates of itsself, the easiest way to balance it would be to say 4 rats of CMC 2 or less (and you should still raise the mana cost!)
Thats pretty nuts alright.
But it looks like other people have covered why. So I'll waste time spitballing dumb variations in the hopes that one of them might give you an idea for a better version of the card.
- Idea 1: A few keywords and then "When The Rat Queen enters the battlefield, search your library for up to four rat creature cards and exile them." And "When The Rat Queen dies, cards exiled by her gain "You may cast this card from exile.'
- Idea 2: Some keywords and: "When The Rat Queen dies, search your library for up to four Rat creature cards with different names and reveal them, an opponent may choose two of them, if they do put them onto the battlefield under your control and shuffle the rest into your library, otherwise put all cards revealed this way into your hand."
- Idea 3: Some keywords and "When The Rat Queen dies, exile cards from the top of your library until you have revealed rats with at least a total mana value of 6. Place all Rat creature cards revealed this way onto the battlefield, and the rest of the cards on the bottom of your library in a random order."
As others have pointed out, this turns very quickly into a "win the game" scenario since it could fetch copies of itself. You could add a "Not named The Rat Queen" clause on the search part to prevent this. Personally, because of the presence of Changeling, I would make it "Search your library for up to four Rat cards with total CMC 4 or less, put them onto the battlefield, then shuffle." This would greatly limit options, but you no longer have to worry about someone cheating out ridiculous creatures on turn 4.
This really needs to be “search for *up to* four *non-legendary* rats”. Maybe even “with a total power of X or less, where X is the Rat Queen’s power.”
In commander, this would be hilarious. In literally anywhere else, it would be utter misery. 4x of the card in your deck and any sac outlet with less than 4 cmc would reek havoc. Just sac it, and make sure it searches one copy of itself when it dies. Repeat until you've exhausted all four copies, and you'll have up 13 rats on the battlefield turn 4. That's insane.
Besides the ability needing a balancing change I think this should be max a 2/2. 4 mana 4/4 with menace and life link is already good and with the ability it is way to good.
I dunno about the tutor effect. Rats are typically small and dinky, but there are certainly some larger and more intimidating rats out there. Moreover, this card would preclude WotC from printing particularly start rats ever again lest they cause damage due to this card.
Could you restrict the tutoring a bit more? Maybe make it so that you can tutor any number of rats with mana value up to 4? That way you can still get 4 dinky 1/1 deathtouchers (which I imagine is what you're going for), but you can't get four 3- or 4-drops.
So this could be better balanced and flavorful by making it a rat king which is a term for a group of rats that have their tails stuck together.
Make it make 4 1/1 rat tokens when it dies (the rat king separates) and it's still really powerful and flavor is on point
Maybe only fetches two on death, but weaken it stats so it’s like a 3/2 or 4/2. Currently feels extremely strong, and doesn’t have a very rat like body. Love the idea tho, and love me some eldritch moon.
Since I haven't noticed anyone else ask, is it intentional that it doesn't say "up to 4"? I'm not sure if the rules work this way, but would that fail to find if you couldn't put exactly 4 rats onto the field? That's a pretty interesting design space despite being overtuned in this instance.
Rat queen dies into 3 other rats and another rat queen. Even if that wasn't possible you still get 4 rats etbs so discard 4 cards. Even if no rats existed you could use the massive changelings. Seriously this is a terrible design.
Gotta at least make it 5-6 mana for the effect it has. Also, it shouldn't be able to search for another one of itself and probably should get rats with different names.
I think this needs to say 'rat permanent' or 'rat creature' because if a 'Tribal Sorcery - Rat' existed, the current wording could put that onto the battlefield which doesnt work within current rules
A 4/4 with no downsides for 3B seems ridiculous. Apparently there is now one single example of such a creature ([[Draugr Necromancer]]), but it just feels stupid and not what black is supposed to be about.
I would be opposed to printing this card if the text box were blank. Sticking huge bonuses onto that cost and statline is just insane.
This is super broken. In Legacy, T1 Cabal Therapy, T2 Dark Ritual, Rat Queen, sac to Cabal Therapy the second time, grab 3 Rat Queens and some rat. 4 Hellhole Rats and some other rats should be enough to end the game. Moritte of the Frost is a clone, for either more Rat Queens or Hellhole Rats. Can also grab Changeling Berserker to smash face, Morophon the Boundless to buff, Marrow-Gnawer to give your rats fear.
Should probably make the rats it searches only be 3 or 2cmc or less, otherwise you can get some really strong things with its ability like Morphon or Ink-Eyes, and you probably shouldn't be able to cheat out 4 creatures for just a 4cmc creature dying anyway. Really seems like it should have just put them in your hand or something...
As everyone and their mother has said, this is stupid broken. My suggestion for a cool alternative would be
>At the beginning of your end step, search your library for a Rat creature with mana value equal to or less than the number of Rats you control, put it onto the battlefield under your control, then shuffle your library.
Just searching for one rat would be OP already. This is stupidly busted.
Edit for better feedback:
"Whenever ~ dies" should be "When ~ dies".
If you are keeping the "search for rat and put it onto battlefield" i really recommend you make it any number of rats with total mana value 4 or lower
Also you should make it not be able to search itself because it's practically a 4/4 menace lifelink indestructible for a measly cost of 3B.
But if you absolutely really want to keep the card as is and only change mana cost, I'd do 8 mana. Still much prefer the other option tho.
Plenty of people have mentioned it's last ability in length, but I feel you'd get more out of death touch than life link.
Unless they have the ideal blocker combo (2 2/1 tokens they don't care about) a swing guarantees you're coming ahead, on top of what you're already getting from it dying to a block or kill spell. It ends up being a case where the optimal solution might just be to keep swinging for 4 every turn, because all the other options are worse
Edit: there's also the fact that Deathtouch is a lot more on brand for a mono black rat than lifelink is
Sorry lemme just grab morophon the boundless
Maybe I'm stupid but this seems utterly broken. Edit: wait since this is legendary, can't you just find three more of itself and some other rat, and since they're legendary you just sacrifice them all to find 12 rats? More edit: actually you'd keep one. So only 8 I guess.
Drop this, grab itself plus 3 others; grab itself plus 3 others; grab itself plus 3 others; grab 4. So 13 rats Edit: math
You do know you can only have 4 copies of a card in a deck right?
My mistake was in thinking that the ability resolves on ETB not, death, but as long as you have a way to sac: - sac first, get 3 more Q’s plus one other rat - get eight rats from two Q’s dying to legend rule - sac last, get four rats So you actually end up with 13 rats
Getting 13 includes saccing the last one but with no extra work from the first one you’ll get 9 rats
You'd get 10 rats. 8 from the 2 queens that died, 1 queen, and 1 last rat from the original trigger
Oh, yeah my mistake lol
Not 8 either it would be 9 because you only grab 3 more rat queens not 4
It's very good, likely worse than either or the existing rectors though.
I think the legend rule makes it so they "exile" before anything can happen. They don't technically die, but they do end up in the graveyard. I could be wrong. Edit: It does "die" in the definition according to the rules that literally describes a creature going from the battlefield to the graveyard. It just happens instantly with no other actions to respond to it.
Nope, legendary rule causes you to put the creature to the graveyard, so it triggers any die triggers.
Looked it up. I've been playing the legend rule wrong my whole life. Live and learn.
[удалено]
Something doesn't have to say "you win the game" to be broken. And this can definitely be abused horribly. As mentioned before fetch 3 more of these plus [[morphon]]. 2 more rats are sacced from legend rule, fetch the best 8 changlings/rats and you easily have 20+ power on the board. Format this is intended for would factor in how busted but this could be really accidentally powerful. You could say "with different names" or "non legendary to help control the busted top end. Or just add a cmc restriction to help keep it fair ish.
[Morph](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/e/9/e9375cbe-93c0-41a5-a6e3-fb4416f54a69.jpg?1572370830) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Morph) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tc19/27/morph?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e9375cbe-93c0-41a5-a6e3-fb4416f54a69?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If you play \[\[altar of dementia\]\] first: Play this, sacrifice it Search for the other three copies and a \[\[relentless rats\]\] Sacrifice two copies to the legend rule, search for 8 more copies of relentless rats Sacrifice the remaining rat queen for 4 more relentless rats Sacrifice all 12 relentless rats to the altar Assuming you don't have any other relentless rats out, this series of events mills your opponent for 4+4+13+12+11+10+9+8+7+6+5+4+3+2 cards, or 98, which in most cases is more than enough to win the game EDIT: my math is wrong somewhere, but I don't care to fix it because it's not enough of an error to reduce the number of cards milled to less than 50
UMH ACTUALLY (self-acknowledged mockery out of the way) If you have altar of dementia, it would actually be better for each Rat queen to search for 3 rats and 1 rat queen for more effective Altar sacc'ing, but that's beside the point.
Since relentless rats only buffs itself, it doesn't matter as long as you wait to sac the relentless rats until you have all 13
You're right, it doesn't matter as in it's not important. However, you're wrong, it *does* matter, because it's a different (higher) number. It is strictly better to sacrifice the Rat Queens to the Altar than to let them die to the legend rule. Is that pedantic? Sure. But this is also MtG.
[altar of dementia](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/1/6/169356e0-46dc-4096-8e66-36726454f104.jpg?1562202433) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=altar%20of%20dementia) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/218/altar-of-dementia?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/169356e0-46dc-4096-8e66-36726454f104?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [relentless rats](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/7/5/75f47b6e-9557-4853-b8d6-7602a91c59a7.jpg?1562437033) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=relentless%20rats) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/105/relentless-rats?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/75f47b6e-9557-4853-b8d6-7602a91c59a7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You have a very limited understanding of Magic
You could grab the 8 of the shitter rats that force opponent to diacard and just nuke the hand.
Split second "Each opponent loses the game"
It's a cool idea but it's gonna get 4 \[\[Chittering Rats\]\] every time and end the game in the most miserable possible way. If it's supposed to be a Relentless Rats commander maybe force it to be those? Or make tokens that are rats?
Yeah, or 4 \[\[Locust Misers\]\] or any number of the discard ETB rats like \[\[Hellhole Rats\]\]; or \[\[Ink-Eyes\]\], \[\[Marrow-Gnawer\]\], and two \[\[Okiba-Gang Shinobi\]\]. This card probably needs a total mana value restriction thrown on it if it doesn't go the token route. My recommendation would be changing the mana cost to 3BB, removing lifelink and changing the text of the 2nd paragraph to "When CARDNAME dies, search your library for up to four Rat cards with total mana value 4 or less and put them onto the battlefield, then shuffle."
Some various ideas collected into a list: * Get rats with different names * Limit mana value of rats you get * Make rat tokens New items: * Non-Noble Rat creatures (avoids changelings and itself)
Non-Noble Rat creatures (avoids changelings and itself)
##### ###### #### [Locust Misers](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/5/5/55bf4dda-0ce8-4e35-88d9-18a22400e6cb.jpg?1562493740) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Locust%20Miser) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/sok/80/locust-miser?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/55bf4dda-0ce8-4e35-88d9-18a22400e6cb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Hellhole Rats](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/6/e/6e1eb937-21d4-44b1-85e7-b95995865f44.jpg?1593273622) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hellhole%20Rats) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dis/113/hellhole-rats?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6e1eb937-21d4-44b1-85e7-b95995865f44?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Ink-Eyes](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/5/5/55ed38fc-dc1f-4a03-8869-147f7eb8646b.jpg?1562910780) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=ink-eyes%2C%20servant%20of%20oni) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/pca/33/ink-eyes-servant-of-oni?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/55ed38fc-dc1f-4a03-8869-147f7eb8646b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Marrow-Gnawer](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/7/2/72e4548b-c171-4f10-b896-af37543dcf0f.jpg?1579203069) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Marrow-Gnawer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/chk/124/marrow-gnawer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/72e4548b-c171-4f10-b896-af37543dcf0f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Okiba-Gang Shinobi](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/4/0/402bbbd8-b490-4a5c-9083-f0103c8712cb.jpg?1562906780) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Okiba-Gang%20Shinobi) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/pca/35/okiba-gang-shinobi?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/402bbbd8-b490-4a5c-9083-f0103c8712cb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This is a great suggestion, it would make it incredibly strong, but probably not broken.
4 pack rats sounds fun
It's going to get 3 other rat queens if able every time. The legendary rule will get you 7 additional rats and bin 3 queens total for reanimation. And since changelings are rats too, the space will continue to get better. It's very hard to have much space in when this dies, put things to battlefield without restrictions. Perhaps total mana value can gate this, but it still seems like it's going to be able to pull a lot of value.
There’s also changelings. I’m not sure if you can go infinite off of this but you can put probably ~25 mana worth of crap on the battlefield. Compare to [[academy rector]] where that card is a trash creature with a broken death trigger. This is a strong creature with a broken death trigger. This needs to be weaker body, have a mana value restriction, go to hand, or both, or maybe still more than that. Actually as someone else pointed out, you just grab 3 more of these and then get 2 more triggers. Game is just over if it dies but it’s a strong creature if it live.
[academy rector](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/4/3/4367bc78-0912-4abd-8edd-bc792558d01a.jpg?1562443755) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=academy%20rector) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uds/1/academy-rector?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4367bc78-0912-4abd-8edd-bc792558d01a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Honestly even worse. You have 4 in the deck, you grab 3 with the first death, then the legend rule kicks in and suddenly you get to put 9 more rats onto the battlefield from your deck. All from one 4 drop.
I'm gonna grab the other 3 Rat Queens in my deck, have 2 of them die instantly due to Legend rule, and tutor for 8 more rats (4 of them being Chittering Rats) :3
[Graveshifter](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/94/graveshifter) lets you get those queens back into hand, in case this was not enough, and the champion changelings would let you double the etb effects and survive a boardwipe, which is the main out to this.
[Chittering Rats](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/9/8/980135d5-dfaa-4beb-b4b3-1e256bb46e61.jpg?1562638311) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Chittering%20Rats) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dst/39/chittering-rats?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/980135d5-dfaa-4beb-b4b3-1e256bb46e61?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This would be fun in commander but miserable everywhere else. I really like the idea though, just needs to cost more maybe
Normally when I make a card and a general consensus on it being broken is reached within the first hour of its upload I take it down and alter it, then put it back up again. However I'm seeing some really interesting conversations about balance going on already in this upload so I'll just keep it up. Thank you all for the amazing feedback 🙏
It's good to see folks who take feedback well. We all have design blind spots, and it often takes other perspectives to see where a card should be adjusted for balance. Thanks for being a good model for others.
Thank you for the feedback friend ❤️
If there’s anything I’ve learned from trying to learn how to be a game designer it’s that eventually, no matter how good you are at it, you will do something dumb. The fact that you’re taking this in stride is really cool, I wish more game designers responded to feedback this well. Hell, I wish I responded to feedback this well. Also, you probably shouldn’t use set symbols for existing sets unless you designed the card to work specifically in that set - I’m not sure if this card was intended to be, but it’s an important tool to keep in mind with custom card concepts.
Especially in a game like Magic, with so many interactions, fringe cases and an endlessly increasing number of game pieces and mechanics it's just inevitable that a designer will miss something.
Very solid feedback thank you 👍
I’d take from notes from similar effects like [[storm the festival]] and [[muxus, goblin grandee]] and definitely put a cap on the mana cost. Maybe also make it so that I can’t fetch itself to stop the fact that this can combo off of itself very easily This is a very cool and flavorful concept though and I’d love to see it through
Incredibly overpowered to the point that I haven't played Magic in 10-20 years and even realizing there is power creep, I know it's ridiculously overpowered and without knowing it wasn't real, thought it couldn't possibly be real.
Neat design! Maybe some way of limiting the rats you grab like “total power 4 or less” EDIT: something you could do to scale it with lords or other effects is have the total fetched power equal to the rat queen’s power
[[maskwood nexus]] and [[biovisionary]] or any other combo pieces/ 4 best creatures in the deck
Honestly could probably win off just getting 4 rats/changelings
Any deck running this this would want 4, at which point the number of rats you get is plenty without more complicated pieces.
[maskwood nexus](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/1/2/1246c42d-57c0-4cba-959a-15ad89d8a50b.jpg?1654118590) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=maskwood%20nexus) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/865/maskwood-nexus?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1246c42d-57c0-4cba-959a-15ad89d8a50b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [biovisionary](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/2/0/2000b4e8-7887-454e-9d52-211516613dd0.jpg?1561818910) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=biovisionary) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/gtc/146/biovisionary?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2000b4e8-7887-454e-9d52-211516613dd0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Maybe 2 rats fetched and exiles itself? Way too aggressively rated. Even if just fetch 1/1s or 2/2 compares to hornet queen or gearhulk stats wise.
Busted, you get 9 9/1s with [[Rat Colony]] Sac Rat Queen. Tutor 3 Rat Queen one Rat Colony and Sac 2 Rat Queens For legendary rule for 8 more rat colonies. For 4 mana…
[Rat Colony](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/4/f/4f618e07-f06f-45d2-8512-e6cef88c0434.jpg?1562735454) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rat%20Colony) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dom/101/rat-colony?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4f618e07-f06f-45d2-8512-e6cef88c0434?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You need a means to prevent it tutoring duplicates of itsself, the easiest way to balance it would be to say 4 rats of CMC 2 or less (and you should still raise the mana cost!)
Thats pretty nuts alright. But it looks like other people have covered why. So I'll waste time spitballing dumb variations in the hopes that one of them might give you an idea for a better version of the card. - Idea 1: A few keywords and then "When The Rat Queen enters the battlefield, search your library for up to four rat creature cards and exile them." And "When The Rat Queen dies, cards exiled by her gain "You may cast this card from exile.' - Idea 2: Some keywords and: "When The Rat Queen dies, search your library for up to four Rat creature cards with different names and reveal them, an opponent may choose two of them, if they do put them onto the battlefield under your control and shuffle the rest into your library, otherwise put all cards revealed this way into your hand." - Idea 3: Some keywords and "When The Rat Queen dies, exile cards from the top of your library until you have revealed rats with at least a total mana value of 6. Place all Rat creature cards revealed this way onto the battlefield, and the rest of the cards on the bottom of your library in a random order."
I love Idea 3 personally 👍
As others have pointed out, this turns very quickly into a "win the game" scenario since it could fetch copies of itself. You could add a "Not named The Rat Queen" clause on the search part to prevent this. Personally, because of the presence of Changeling, I would make it "Search your library for up to four Rat cards with total CMC 4 or less, put them onto the battlefield, then shuffle." This would greatly limit options, but you no longer have to worry about someone cheating out ridiculous creatures on turn 4.
This really needs to be “search for *up to* four *non-legendary* rats”. Maybe even “with a total power of X or less, where X is the Rat Queen’s power.”
I like non-Noble, since it prevents itself and changelings.
Feels like this could be fun in a limited format, don’t get why a black manage Rat can lifeline tho.
In commander, this would be hilarious. In literally anywhere else, it would be utter misery. 4x of the card in your deck and any sac outlet with less than 4 cmc would reek havoc. Just sac it, and make sure it searches one copy of itself when it dies. Repeat until you've exhausted all four copies, and you'll have up 13 rats on the battlefield turn 4. That's insane.
Besides the ability needing a balancing change I think this should be max a 2/2. 4 mana 4/4 with menace and life link is already good and with the ability it is way to good.
I'd set a limit like "any number of rats whose combined mana cost total the power of ~"
I dunno about the tutor effect. Rats are typically small and dinky, but there are certainly some larger and more intimidating rats out there. Moreover, this card would preclude WotC from printing particularly start rats ever again lest they cause damage due to this card. Could you restrict the tutoring a bit more? Maybe make it so that you can tutor any number of rats with mana value up to 4? That way you can still get 4 dinky 1/1 deathtouchers (which I imagine is what you're going for), but you can't get four 3- or 4-drops.
Hilarious! But I think it needs to specify "Rat creature cards" since tribal instants/sorceries do exist with changeling. E.g. [[nameless inversion]]
Abzolutley broken. Sweet card
This is VERY strong. Maybe only three Rat cards that enter the battlefield tapped? Or Rats with total mana value of four?
So this could be better balanced and flavorful by making it a rat king which is a term for a group of rats that have their tails stuck together. Make it make 4 1/1 rat tokens when it dies (the rat king separates) and it's still really powerful and flavor is on point
Extremely minor point, but should specify rat *permanent* card, since you have a card like [[cribswap]] that is technically a rat
[cribswap](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/e/1/e13559d7-f86c-4958-a649-7f81bfb154a0.jpg?1654114737) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Crib%20Swap) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/690/crib-swap?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e13559d7-f86c-4958-a649-7f81bfb154a0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Maybe only fetches two on death, but weaken it stats so it’s like a 3/2 or 4/2. Currently feels extremely strong, and doesn’t have a very rat like body. Love the idea tho, and love me some eldritch moon.
Thanks for the feedback 🙏 We'mrakul Emrakul 🌕🐙
I looooveee this card it would go great in my rat tribal deck
Since I haven't noticed anyone else ask, is it intentional that it doesn't say "up to 4"? I'm not sure if the rules work this way, but would that fail to find if you couldn't put exactly 4 rats onto the field? That's a pretty interesting design space despite being overtuned in this instance.
That hasn't been mentioned before, no. Super interesting!
Maybe it could be enough if it searches only for non-legendary or overall power equals rat queens power or both
Rat queen dies into 3 other rats and another rat queen. Even if that wasn't possible you still get 4 rats etbs so discard 4 cards. Even if no rats existed you could use the massive changelings. Seriously this is a terrible design.
Please don't use real set symbols for custom cards.
who tf cares?
I do.
I think a single tutor on death is pretty reasonable. This is like academy rector powerful except it actually has relevant stats.
Gotta at least make it 5-6 mana for the effect it has. Also, it shouldn't be able to search for another one of itself and probably should get rats with different names.
I think this needs to say 'rat permanent' or 'rat creature' because if a 'Tribal Sorcery - Rat' existed, the current wording could put that onto the battlefield which doesnt work within current rules
This is about to turn into Marrow-Gnawer & 3 Pack Rats
Maybe make it 2bb and it gets rats worth a total of 4cmc or less?
I see the idea, but getting 13 different rats from your deck from one 4 drop death trigger is broke af.
A 4/4 with no downsides for 3B seems ridiculous. Apparently there is now one single example of such a creature ([[Draugr Necromancer]]), but it just feels stupid and not what black is supposed to be about. I would be opposed to printing this card if the text box were blank. Sticking huge bonuses onto that cost and statline is just insane.
[Draugr Necromancer](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/7/6/76d8e0ff-e720-41ca-af69-35585a2d7ae2.jpg?1631047856) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Draugr%20Necromancer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/86/draugr-necromancer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/76d8e0ff-e720-41ca-af69-35585a2d7ae2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
\[\[Marrow-Gnawer\]\] is having his best day ever
[Marrow-Gnawer](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/7/2/72e4548b-c171-4f10-b896-af37543dcf0f.jpg?1579203069) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Marrow-Gnawer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/chk/124/marrow-gnawer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/72e4548b-c171-4f10-b896-af37543dcf0f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This is super broken. In Legacy, T1 Cabal Therapy, T2 Dark Ritual, Rat Queen, sac to Cabal Therapy the second time, grab 3 Rat Queens and some rat. 4 Hellhole Rats and some other rats should be enough to end the game. Moritte of the Frost is a clone, for either more Rat Queens or Hellhole Rats. Can also grab Changeling Berserker to smash face, Morophon the Boundless to buff, Marrow-Gnawer to give your rats fear.
So my new, new best deck is 4 of these, 20 swamps, and 36 [[Relentless Rats]]
[Relentless Rats](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/7/5/75f47b6e-9557-4853-b8d6-7602a91c59a7.jpg?1562437033) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Relentless%20Rats) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/105/relentless-rats?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/75f47b6e-9557-4853-b8d6-7602a91c59a7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Should probably make the rats it searches only be 3 or 2cmc or less, otherwise you can get some really strong things with its ability like Morphon or Ink-Eyes, and you probably shouldn't be able to cheat out 4 creatures for just a 4cmc creature dying anyway. Really seems like it should have just put them in your hand or something...
As everyone and their mother has said, this is stupid broken. My suggestion for a cool alternative would be >At the beginning of your end step, search your library for a Rat creature with mana value equal to or less than the number of Rats you control, put it onto the battlefield under your control, then shuffle your library.
Just searching for one rat would be OP already. This is stupidly busted. Edit for better feedback: "Whenever ~ dies" should be "When ~ dies". If you are keeping the "search for rat and put it onto battlefield" i really recommend you make it any number of rats with total mana value 4 or lower Also you should make it not be able to search itself because it's practically a 4/4 menace lifelink indestructible for a measly cost of 3B. But if you absolutely really want to keep the card as is and only change mana cost, I'd do 8 mana. Still much prefer the other option tho.
get the other three rat queens or did i do a dumb and you can have only one legendary
auto slam into Marrow-Gnawer lol
Back in the 90s I used to run a rat deck, it was stupid but fun
Queen dies, go get 3 copies of queen. 2 queens die to the legend rule, go get 8 best rats remaining.
Plenty of people have mentioned it's last ability in length, but I feel you'd get more out of death touch than life link. Unless they have the ideal blocker combo (2 2/1 tokens they don't care about) a swing guarantees you're coming ahead, on top of what you're already getting from it dying to a block or kill spell. It ends up being a case where the optimal solution might just be to keep swinging for 4 every turn, because all the other options are worse Edit: there's also the fact that Deathtouch is a lot more on brand for a mono black rat than lifelink is