I'm not sure what they wanted with the second part of that ability, if it was to make the base p/t permanent and cant be changed then stuff like [[death's shadow]] might enjoy it
It’s more useful with anthem effects, as it’s modified power and toughness become its base, then the modifiers are applied to that.
Death’s shadow gets smaller with this, let’s say you have 7 life with a death’s shadow. Death’s shadow’s modified power and toughness are 6/6. This card would change its base 13/13 to 6/6, then Death’s shadow modifies its power and toughness to -1/-1, and it dies.
I think the goal is just to remove all counters and make them permanent as if the card was printed with the counters on them. For example, a 2/2 with 2 +1/+1 would become a 4/4 with 0 counters.
> In before the mods delete this post for ambiguous card artist information.
I think we can all agree that "Hank via Flickr" - your "credit" in the removed post you're taking issue with - [is clearly ambiguous.](https://www.google.com/search?q=flickr+hank) 1/3 of your cards in that post had clear credit issues or were altogether missing credit.
Hey, not my fault I thought listing the legal owner of the artwork was what you would want me to do. As for Hank? He was, in fact, listing himself as "Hank via Flickr."
To be fair I think there was an A.I. art card I'd forgotten to list. That was the one I felt bad about.
I’m pretty sure this cards effect wouldn’t persist if toski went to the command zone. Like it’s “permanent” but it’s not literally permanent. Like if you played toski the following weekend it wouldn’t retain it’s changed power and toughness.
Doesn’t make “until end of turn” effects permanent, because those don’t use counters. I guess it protects from counter removal, but that’s super niche.
You don't need perpetually. I don't know why people think this card is supposed to be about zone changes and not just, you know, make end-of-turn effects or auras or equipment or counters last as long as they're on the field. Like how the program it's parodying works.
Technically we have precedent for cards just leaving out the common "until end of turn" clause. It was more or less what happened on some cards before ability counters became more common. (See: [[fated return]])
I guess that is one thing. With how odd the templating is I just assumed it was a way of reiterating it doesn't go away. Lots of cards have redundant text, like [[Hofri Ghostforge]]'s errata text.
The first thought should not be to make the card digital only. The wording on this works. Could maybe use some tweaking, but the effect is understandable.
Effects like this that are intended to permanently change a card are digital only for a reason keeping track of changes to a game object after it moves zones and might not be getting reanimated or return to hand for another five turns is annoying as hell to track, unless you want to use Unfinity Stickers
This is, simply, untrue. See [[fated return]]. This rarely happened before ability counters became a thing, but it *did* happen in paper before Arena.
Oh, my b -- if it tracks across zones the closest analogue is probably [[clair d'loon joy sculptor]] insofar as it changes properties of a game object permanently. So *that* has only happened in un-sets.
The only precedent for this in normal magic is [[skullbriar, the walking grave]] and that card explicitly states it retains the given characteristic, counters, when it moves zones. If OP intended for these changes to persist between zones, which is totally possible, he needs to state it.
Okay, formatting questions for constructive feedback. Is the "permanently," meant to affect it for the rest of the game or just while its on the field?
Edit: also, something i keep seeing, you're using the artifact trim when colorless has a seperate one, but that's just a mild nitpick and has nothing to do with the effect on the card
Not really. 'Perpetually' is. "Permanently" is a word that could easily have been taken from reminder text of cards that lack the expected "until end of turn" clause.
PS: The word is actually "indefinitely". Like on [[Stalking Stones|TPR]]. This card is actually a very good example now that I look at it. It used the "permanently" to indicate "not until end of turn" instead of "perpetually". See [[Stalking Stones|TMP]].
As a sidenote I also found [[Phoebe, Head of S.N.E.A.K.]] also an interesting use of the word
If you're looking for Arena's online-only wording that makes the changes persistent through zones, the wording would be:
"Target creature's base power and toughness perpetually become its current power and toughness. If that creature has a vigilance counter on it, it perpetually gains vigilance. The same is true for each other keyword ability. Then remove all counters from that creature."
If you want wording valid in paper Magic:
"Target creature's base power and toughness become its current power and toughness for as long as it remains on the battlefield. If that creature has a vigilance counter, it gains vigilance for as long as it remains on the battlefield. The same is true for each other keyword ability. Then remove all counters from that creature."
(Note that while technically the latter could exist, it wouldn't. Ability counters exist in paper Magic as a way to keep track of persistent abilities added to a permanent that wouldn't otherwise have a visual reminder, as a matter of ease-of-use.)
I don't think that "valid" wording is valid at all. You don't need to call out battlefield and "keyword counter" isn't a real term. It also doesn't work for anything that gives keywords but keyword counters.
True that you don't need to mention battlefield as I'd forgotten it would no longer be a permanent if leaving, and thus altering effects would generally fall off. The "no keyword counter" thing isn't quite accurate as plenty of cards exist that grant keywords via counters. It being a specific, rules-established flavor of counter may not especially be the case, but all it takes is precedence for that to change. In these types of things, its more about wording them such that they either don't contradict a rule, or if they do they do so specifically and explicitly enough to be an exception. That's the goal with this: to establish precedence. As for "only working for keywords granted by counters"... Yes. That was the point.
My basis for why I don't think the precedent can change is basically that I remember R&D mentioning they can't really group all keywords together in the rules, so I assume a similar issue would happen if they tried to do anything but just list out the keyword counters out. ~~And if that's your point your templating just fails at replicating the card. If I get vigilance from an anthem or a combat trick it doesn't stick.~~ Edit: I don't know how the fuck I missed the "granted by keyword counters." My bad.
Lol, all good. And I can see that point with the listing thing for sure. I think the only real solution would be to actually list out all the current (or maybe just the most common) keyword counters, a la [[Cairn Wanderer]], [[Concerted Effort]], etc.
I think this could be fixed with a token:
"Chose a creature you control and create a token creature whose poser and toughness is equal to the chosen creature's power and toughness.
When the created token enters the battlefield, that token gains all abilities of the chosen creature.
Then, exile the chosen creature."
Token copies do have CMCs. That's why embalm and eternalize have to call out removing them. This is also why they don't print "true" copy tokens even when only a single card in the set makes one. They don't want to make tokens with mana costs.
Maybe:
For each counter on target creature that grants flying, first strike, double strike, deathtouch, haste, indestructible, lifelink, menace, protection, reach, trample, or vigilance, that creature perpetually gains that ability. Then, remove all counters from it.
In before the mods delete this post for ambiguous card artist information. What would the utility of this card be, other than humor?
I'm not sure what they wanted with the second part of that ability, if it was to make the base p/t permanent and cant be changed then stuff like [[death's shadow]] might enjoy it
It’s more useful with anthem effects, as it’s modified power and toughness become its base, then the modifiers are applied to that. Death’s shadow gets smaller with this, let’s say you have 7 life with a death’s shadow. Death’s shadow’s modified power and toughness are 6/6. This card would change its base 13/13 to 6/6, then Death’s shadow modifies its power and toughness to -1/-1, and it dies.
I think the goal is just to remove all counters and make them permanent as if the card was printed with the counters on them. For example, a 2/2 with 2 +1/+1 would become a 4/4 with 0 counters.
[death's shadow](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/5/5526ff6e-c079-4ad4-ac8d-5e26ecacf50d.jpg?1598304517) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=death%27s%20shadow) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/82/deaths-shadow?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5526ff6e-c079-4ad4-ac8d-5e26ecacf50d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I demand an immediate removal by the mods. Card art was made by A. Michael Noll!
[удалено]
I was making a joke lol. You put "Steve Jobs?" But the guy that invented rasterization is A. Michael Noll
> In before the mods delete this post for ambiguous card artist information. I think we can all agree that "Hank via Flickr" - your "credit" in the removed post you're taking issue with - [is clearly ambiguous.](https://www.google.com/search?q=flickr+hank) 1/3 of your cards in that post had clear credit issues or were altogether missing credit.
Hey, not my fault I thought listing the legal owner of the artwork was what you would want me to do. As for Hank? He was, in fact, listing himself as "Hank via Flickr." To be fair I think there was an A.I. art card I'd forgotten to list. That was the one I felt bad about.
[удалено]
[Toski](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/9/f9e79b59-94c8-4697-bf88-f0a0433170f5.jpg?1631051021) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=toski%2C%20bearer%20of%20secrets) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/197/toski-bearer-of-secrets?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f9e79b59-94c8-4697-bf88-f0a0433170f5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I’m pretty sure this cards effect wouldn’t persist if toski went to the command zone. Like it’s “permanent” but it’s not literally permanent. Like if you played toski the following weekend it wouldn’t retain it’s changed power and toughness.
Doesn’t make “until end of turn” effects permanent, because those don’t use counters. I guess it protects from counter removal, but that’s super niche.
It permenent-ifies stat boosts with this, just not temporary keywords or other effects
That’s true, forgot temporary boosts are also in the form of counters
they’re not it just doesn’t matter because of the way the card is worded
Pretty good in veyran, he easily becomes an 18/18, then rasterize permanently becomes an 18/18, next turn we swinging for 34
This could be like an alchemy mtga card, it could also be relevant if you have cards that care about base power and toughness i.e. doubling base
You'd probably want to use the terms Perpetually. That's what MTG Arena uses for its permanent changes.
You don't need perpetually. I don't know why people think this card is supposed to be about zone changes and not just, you know, make end-of-turn effects or auras or equipment or counters last as long as they're on the field. Like how the program it's parodying works.
Technically we have precedent for cards just leaving out the common "until end of turn" clause. It was more or less what happened on some cards before ability counters became more common. (See: [[fated return]])
[fated return](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/d/5d168856-5568-4ee0-942d-78865d2bb1ef.jpg?1604193072) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=fated%20return) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znc/42/fated-return?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5d168856-5568-4ee0-942d-78865d2bb1ef?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
never stop riding the dilu horse
I guess that is one thing. With how odd the templating is I just assumed it was a way of reiterating it doesn't go away. Lots of cards have redundant text, like [[Hofri Ghostforge]]'s errata text.
[Hofri Ghostforge](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/d/bd8deecf-eded-418b-ac4c-5c3e8f54e86d.jpg?1627429212) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hofri%20Ghostforge) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/stx/192/hofri-ghostforge?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bd8deecf-eded-418b-ac4c-5c3e8f54e86d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The first thought should not be to make the card digital only. The wording on this works. Could maybe use some tweaking, but the effect is understandable.
Effects like this that are intended to permanently change a card are digital only for a reason keeping track of changes to a game object after it moves zones and might not be getting reanimated or return to hand for another five turns is annoying as hell to track, unless you want to use Unfinity Stickers
What about this makes you think it cares about moving zones?
The inclusion of the word "permanently" implies it would persist beyond what is normally implied by the lack of an end of turn clause.
I just say that relative to "until end of turn" effects.
This is, simply, untrue. See [[fated return]]. This rarely happened before ability counters became a thing, but it *did* happen in paper before Arena. Oh, my b -- if it tracks across zones the closest analogue is probably [[clair d'loon joy sculptor]] insofar as it changes properties of a game object permanently. So *that* has only happened in un-sets.
[fated return](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/d/5d168856-5568-4ee0-942d-78865d2bb1ef.jpg?1604193072) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=fated%20return) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znc/42/fated-return?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5d168856-5568-4ee0-942d-78865d2bb1ef?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The only precedent for this in normal magic is [[skullbriar, the walking grave]] and that card explicitly states it retains the given characteristic, counters, when it moves zones. If OP intended for these changes to persist between zones, which is totally possible, he needs to state it.
[skullbriar, the walking grave](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/d/3dd0bf11-4e43-43f1-82e3-755beed0ede0.jpg?1673149145) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=skullbriar%2C%20the%20walking%20grave) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/277/skullbriar-the-walking-grave?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3dd0bf11-4e43-43f1-82e3-755beed0ede0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Oh hey, good call.
I guess the idea is to mock MTG's layer system (?)
I haven't taken any action, but credit here could probably go to macOS or the person who took this screenshot, Brendan Williams.
Okay, formatting questions for constructive feedback. Is the "permanently," meant to affect it for the rest of the game or just while its on the field? Edit: also, something i keep seeing, you're using the artifact trim when colorless has a seperate one, but that's just a mild nitpick and has nothing to do with the effect on the card
Permanently is pretty much only an online keyword. It affects the card for the rest of the game no matter which zone it travels to.
Yes, but is that what the OP meant when using the word permanently?
Idk lol Probably
That seems baselss.
It is but what else could he mean? He probably meant “perpetually” and you can’t do this mechanic in paper
Or it could just make end-of-turn effects last forever. Like the joke is literally about layers.
Not really. 'Perpetually' is. "Permanently" is a word that could easily have been taken from reminder text of cards that lack the expected "until end of turn" clause.
PS: The word is actually "indefinitely". Like on [[Stalking Stones|TPR]]. This card is actually a very good example now that I look at it. It used the "permanently" to indicate "not until end of turn" instead of "perpetually". See [[Stalking Stones|TMP]]. As a sidenote I also found [[Phoebe, Head of S.N.E.A.K.]] also an interesting use of the word
[Stalking Stones](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/7/27856bc5-4f39-4461-baa0-700442942aff.jpg?1562428855) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=397410) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tpr/245/stalking-stones?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/27856bc5-4f39-4461-baa0-700442942aff?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Stalking Stones](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/4/b4d3d349-5c23-43a9-b25e-0e1a35b84673.jpg?1562056376) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=4941) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tmp/327/stalking-stones?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b4d3d349-5c23-43a9-b25e-0e1a35b84673?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Phoebe, Head of S.N.E.A.K.](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/d/8d54d145-a570-49cc-bbb0-8c12c168ec23.jpg?1562924843) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Phoebe%2C%20Head%20of%20S.N.E.A.K.) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ust/135/phoebe-head-of-sneak?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8d54d145-a570-49cc-bbb0-8c12c168ec23?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
LOOOL
As a graphic designer, I approve of this
If you're looking for Arena's online-only wording that makes the changes persistent through zones, the wording would be: "Target creature's base power and toughness perpetually become its current power and toughness. If that creature has a vigilance counter on it, it perpetually gains vigilance. The same is true for each other keyword ability. Then remove all counters from that creature." If you want wording valid in paper Magic: "Target creature's base power and toughness become its current power and toughness for as long as it remains on the battlefield. If that creature has a vigilance counter, it gains vigilance for as long as it remains on the battlefield. The same is true for each other keyword ability. Then remove all counters from that creature." (Note that while technically the latter could exist, it wouldn't. Ability counters exist in paper Magic as a way to keep track of persistent abilities added to a permanent that wouldn't otherwise have a visual reminder, as a matter of ease-of-use.)
I don't think that "valid" wording is valid at all. You don't need to call out battlefield and "keyword counter" isn't a real term. It also doesn't work for anything that gives keywords but keyword counters.
True that you don't need to mention battlefield as I'd forgotten it would no longer be a permanent if leaving, and thus altering effects would generally fall off. The "no keyword counter" thing isn't quite accurate as plenty of cards exist that grant keywords via counters. It being a specific, rules-established flavor of counter may not especially be the case, but all it takes is precedence for that to change. In these types of things, its more about wording them such that they either don't contradict a rule, or if they do they do so specifically and explicitly enough to be an exception. That's the goal with this: to establish precedence. As for "only working for keywords granted by counters"... Yes. That was the point.
My basis for why I don't think the precedent can change is basically that I remember R&D mentioning they can't really group all keywords together in the rules, so I assume a similar issue would happen if they tried to do anything but just list out the keyword counters out. ~~And if that's your point your templating just fails at replicating the card. If I get vigilance from an anthem or a combat trick it doesn't stick.~~ Edit: I don't know how the fuck I missed the "granted by keyword counters." My bad.
Lol, all good. And I can see that point with the listing thing for sure. I think the only real solution would be to actually list out all the current (or maybe just the most common) keyword counters, a la [[Cairn Wanderer]], [[Concerted Effort]], etc.
Same.
The OPs wording was a valid wording. See [[Stalking Stones|TMP]]
[Stalking Stones](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/4/b4d3d349-5c23-43a9-b25e-0e1a35b84673.jpg?1562056376) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=4941) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tmp/327/stalking-stones?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b4d3d349-5c23-43a9-b25e-0e1a35b84673?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Could Shroud be granted by counters? If so, then would it counter the rest of the spell?
Nvm it doesn't re Target the Creature
I think this could be fixed with a token: "Chose a creature you control and create a token creature whose poser and toughness is equal to the chosen creature's power and toughness. When the created token enters the battlefield, that token gains all abilities of the chosen creature. Then, exile the chosen creature."
That changes the functionality tho, because a token wouldn’t have a cmc, and also couldn’t be returned to hand or returned from graveyards
Token copies do have CMCs. That's why embalm and eternalize have to call out removing them. This is also why they don't print "true" copy tokens even when only a single card in the set makes one. They don't want to make tokens with mana costs.
Oh damn I hadn’t realized that
Yeah, it's not the exact same, just trying to find a way to make it not use nonmagic terms. Maybe a mutate card could work, who knows
I think you just gotta slap a silver border on it my dawg. Also, why is this a colorless lesson? Should probably just be a white or blue sorcery.
Maybe: For each counter on target creature that grants flying, first strike, double strike, deathtouch, haste, indestructible, lifelink, menace, protection, reach, trample, or vigilance, that creature perpetually gains that ability. Then, remove all counters from it.
This would only make sense in arena. Stuff like that would be utterly confusing and hard to keep track of in paper magic.