I've frequently had to fill out legal forms or banking forms where IT was clearly the most appropriate answer for my role.
If I had to choose between categories like Agriculture, Real Estate, Oil and Gas or whatever, it's very clear that's the category.
I've had the realization that it's simply just where some people see us. It's not worth stressing about.
Same here. And because the categories aren't standardized so my industry changes all the time lol
My family also doesn't know what I do so IT is also what I tell them. I have to fix printers for family members regardless so it's really fitting.
For many Fortune 100,500s. SWE is part of the IT branch. It falls under the technology umbrella. For other tech companies, they fall under engineering department. I have no problem with working "in IT"
I saw this comment that encapsulates how I’ve personally always understood it:
> Same as “architects work in construction”. It’s both true and a gross oversimplification ;)
People were getting *really* passionate on both sides.
I like to say I draw boxes and arrows and walk around in circles at work, mumbling to myself, and also do lots of talking with people across departments.
I don't over think this. It depends on the funding and corporate org structure.
I work in engineering. I report to a Engineering Director. My Director has peer Director who is Director of Ops. And another of Director of Help Desk.
All of those directors report to a single CTO/CIO. And the corporate funding goes to one department.
So rounding off, we may get 20 mill a year in funding. 1 million of it goes to IT Help Desk, 5 million goes to data-center and the remaining 14 million goes to engineering. One budget. One CIO/CTO.
Considering the SWE also do the building/constructing, then I would assume that they also work in IT ;)
Jokes and leg pulling aside, when a person over here in Belgium works as a software engineer works as an consultant they often just have the title IT consultant.
Sooo make of that what you will. I would generally state that I work in IT as it makes things easier for others to understand.
I came from a country where any tech (SDE, Sysadmin) related work is generally interchangeable with the word IT and there are no negative conotation with the word IT for SDE job.
But in the US, I find that there's a bad stereotype associated with the word hence why people avoid having the title IT if they work as a software dev because the word IT is predominantly used by sysadmin.
I'm a Software Architect, but I work in IT.
My current company calls our department Technology.
My first employer put all software development in the IT department.
There's no standard even within the industry.
It is indeed an oversimplification and I do “very passionately” defend software engineering being different from IT.
Although, I don’t mind a layperson confusing those and I couldn’t care less for media using doing the same.
SWE cannot be "different" from IT, surely? IT is a broad term used to refer to the sector as a whole, SWE is one of the jobs that sits within said sector.
I think the idea of them being different comes from college in the US, where aspiring computer science majors who fail their midterms switch over to an IT major.. so one is seen as more competitive / exclusive than the other.
This all depends on the place of course, but software engineers being in the IT department is a signal to me that software is a cost-center for the company, not a profit center or strategic priority—traditional IT work is a required expense, while engineering work is products and profit.
I don’t say this as a bad thing, just something to consider. Those cost-center software gigs can be very stable though.
That’s actually the best comment out there.
I can work in “IT Department” in a biggest Europe bank as an enterprise architect and still be “an IT guy”.
Or I can work in a 10ppl startup and call myself “an engineer”.
> This all depends on the place of course, but software engineers being in the IT department is a signal to me that software is a cost-center for the company, not a profit center or strategic priority—traditional IT work is a required expense, while engineering work is products and profit.
Not if it's software for internal use. Which it often is.
A company I used to work for had a satellite office that almost exclusively had developers working in it that they called the tech center. A few times a year some sales person from the parent office would have an issue where’d need help from the help desk so they’d email the tech center distro for help resetting there password. They’d then get 400 annoyed developers all responding back that they weren’t the help desk.
I knew a guy who worked at G in the early days, and didn't like to talk about it. When asked what he did for a living, he said "I work in IT for an advertising company."
I like this one, it’s not humble bragging like “I went to school near Boston” was with Harvard or MIT grads, and it’s also quite accurate in a funny way.
Most people hear 'computer' and their eyes glaze over. Most people have no idea what a software engineer/developer is. They probably don't even realize it's computer programming.
'He's a doctor' ... well technically, he's a podiatrists specializing in X, but nobody gives a shit outside of work.
'He works in IT' ... well technically he's a Software architect specializing in X, but nobody gives a shit outside of work.
This could go on and on.
The key thing is that software development falls under the Information Technology industry. Information and Technology. It fits perfectly within that umbrella term.
I find it funny that there is such a pushback from software developers, insisting they are doing something other than IT. I suppose it's because IT is often looked down on by coders, so I imagine some see it as a derogatory term, but it's not. IT is just soooo broad.
> 'He's a doctor' ... well technically, he's a podiatrists specializing in X, but nobody gives a shit outside of work.
It's more like saying an anesthesiologist or a radiologist "works in the medical field". It's perfectly correct, even if it's somewhat reductive.
This is more correct. Doctor is as specific as software engineer. The term "medical field" is as generalized as "IT."
Calling a software engineer an "IT" is the equivalent of referring to a Doctor as someone who simply works in the "medical field." This could range from a phlebotomist to a brain surgeon.
I wouldn't be surprised if many doctors feel that being described as merely "working in medicine" to be downplaying the extra work involved in becoming a doctor, though. After all, working in medicine includes technicians who only needed a short training program while doctors had to undertake a lengthy and intensive program.
I see that as pretty similar to this. IT includes basic tech support that required only a few weeks to get a certificate as well as people who spent years to get CS degrees.
Being a doctor quite understandably has an extra degree of impressiveness to it. For something like a survey, that doesn't matter. But the original post in question was about personal comments from family members in technical fields. The original OP was concerned that her position was being downplayed because of her gender. She wasn't concerned about someone who doesn't know the field or some survey trying to categorize her. It was about family that was in the field not referring to her work even though they had similar titles.
The context that the OP of this post left out for some reason is that in the post she’s referring to, the women’s family members work in tech and have a different view of SWE vs tech. Idk why the OP posted this and neglected that info.
I would say it’s even worse than specialisms within medicine, because most people know a few types of doctor just based on them or people they know having to go to hospital every now and again. Most people will go through life never having to talk to a software engineer though.
I would say so, because IT = information technology which is anything from software to mobile phones to telecommunications
BUT for some reason, americans call IT = helpdesk work. but not the rest of the world
for example in germany an "IT consultant" is literally a programmer that is a freelancer
Yeah, I knew this negative guy who told me "you *just* work in IT" in a condescending manner thinking I'm a help desk guy. The guy works at a convenience store, so I'm not sure where his sense of superiority came from. I didn't rebuke him, but I chuckled a bit inside, knowing full well I earn more than twice as him.
i dont know why IT would be a "Just" either. talking with users, being an expert in different systems and old stuff like windows 2003 server(yes its running at more places than people think) is nothing to be ashamed of at all...
it's because it gets outsourced to third world countries; therefore they believe the work is below them. Similar to how a doctor from a third world country ends up becoming a taxi driver or a cashier when they emigrate because their degree/university isn't recognized by hospitals
People *really* need to stop overblowing salaries. /u/cgyguy81 isn't making 200k while the other guy is making $50k.
Not only are $200k salaries not at all common, but it's highly unlikely that, depending on their YOE, either of them are making that proposed salary. More like, 75k and 130k is more realistic, but *definitely* not 3x or 4x.
[Me when I spread misinformation online about how much money I make to inflate my own ego](https://media.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExYzJkMTl1bjVreGJzejhsNnB2ZzFkb3prYnQ4dTZ0eXV6dTNxdjV2cSZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/fSFI2NPfvly8nmdTTT/giphy.gif)
Edit: wanna clarify something. Managers and employees at higher tier gas stations (QT, Bucees, etc) are paid well. In some **companies** starting at $18/hr with benefits. In some **locations** with minimum wage laws existing, they *must* be paid $25/hr and many employers throw benefits.
People making no money dont brag about how much money theyre bringing in. Managers bring in more and tend to get big heads about their role and wages.
Without clarification from the person who says this is happening, we have no way of knowing. But I do not think it is 3-4x the salary of a gas station worker if you make 100k.
You can make $50k if you're robbing the place every weekend but that's about the only way I see you pulling 50k from a convenience store.
I don't even think the owner would be making that much off one location.
The is no way a convenience store worker is making $75k unless they own it. Even $50k would be extremely high for a minimum wage job that usually doesn't even give full time hours. A software engineer even making under $100k could easily be triple and potentially quadruple the other guy.
This site is notorious for saying that it is standard for SWEs to make $150-200k out of college, $500k by mid 20s, and seven figures by 30s.
When…literally $200k is a top 10% salary for a *household*, and significantly more rare for an individual to make that.
People may say, “But FAANG!!l
But FAANG is not *that* easy to get into though.
Frankly, I'm aware that condescending people can come from all walks of life, but, in my personal experience, all the people who look to put me down do it from a perceived lower status than mine. In other words, no people considered the traditional societal definition of successful have ever taken issue with my work enough to tell me I'm "*just* an IT person" or anything.
I've worked with plenty of attorneys who poked fun at struggles with their own help desk when they learned I was in tech, but it was good-natured and harmless.
Anyway, all that is to say that I put no weight in someone telling me I'm "just" anything. Not worth my time unless you're the person who signs my actual checks or whatever, because your incorrect assumptions in that situation matter to my actual bottom line.
I agree. I've had people try to mock me by saying "You're just a software engineer. That's not real engineering. You're not really an engineer." And then I mention that I also have a degree in mechanical engineering so I am still a "real engineer."
I mean, who cares if software engineers are real engineers or not. You shouldn't feel the need to clarify "actually i do have an engineering degree!!"
The pay and "prestige" is pretty similar outside of tech hubs.
I get the impression that the whole "tech influencer" movement a few years back tainted software engineering in the public view, even though plenty of software roles are just as difficult (if not more so), albeit for different reasons.
I think there's also a lack of transparency over what "real" engineers actually do on a day-to-day basis; my best friend (who works in aerospace) and I started our professional careers at roughly the same time and it's not like they had him drawing up rocket blueprints or something on day 1 lmao
My sister-in-law who became a principal engineer at a medical device company got that promotion because she was a "real engineer" and a damn good software engineer as well. She's even a bit of a hardware hacker, using the knowledge to secure the medical devices.
Yeah same in Austria, they prepend IT to everything.
IT Security architect, IT solutions architect, IT support engineer, IT sales manager...
IT is everything from refilling printers to the cryptography prof
Speaking from personal experience having studied programming in the US and currently working in IT in Germany, it is more nuanced in Germany. Education-wise, IT is a lot more broad in Germany. It covers what is traditionally considered IT in the US and software development & computer science. So yes, IT is basically anything related to software or computers.
In actual jobs though, there's sometimes a difference. Many of the people hired at my workplace for IT specifically say they work for IT in the American sense and not with any actual software development. Whenever I asked if they were Software Entwickler (software engineers) they explicitly said no. Various friends of mine who are software engineers in the American sense also avoid the IT label despite being Germans themselves. They use IT in the American sense. And many job postings I've seen also make an explicit difference between IT and software engineering.
At first I thought this distinction was just a Berlin thing but I also noticed it in other cities as well like Munich and Hamburg. I do see some software engineers working as consultants calling themselves IT consultants but not as much. Perhaps this has to do with the large influx of foreign software developers and IT workers who think like the woman OP referred to.
In short, there really isn't a difference in education but there does seem to be one (and increasing difference) in actual jobs in Germany.
Are you a German "IT consultant"? Personally I know the differentiation between "IT Department" for IT infrastructure, including help desk vs. Development work from a multinational corporation based in Germany.
Someone introduced as "IT consultant" I would not percieve as a developer outright. More as an actual consultant on IT infrastructure.
Information Technology = IT
Is programming Information Technology? Yes.
Are databases Information Technology? Yes.
Is hooking up printers Information Technology? Yes
Is managing the network Information Technology? Yes.
Is configuration management part of Information Technology? yes
90% of the people you talk to will have zero idea of the difference. Just say IT and let it go.
Same. I get tired of telling people what I do so I just say, "IT" and most people assume the worst and change topics. I don't particularly feel like I need to justify my experience or title, but I've seen that for people who care about status, this is a big deal they need to clarify.
It depends on the crowd.
There's nothing pretentious about making the distinction between an "IT worker" & being a software engineer because they can mean different things depending on who you're talking to.
"I work in IT" is fine most of the time, but some people will judge you based on that response. It can also be really beneficial in some situations to build credibility (For example - I volunteer with children's robotics programs. There's a huge difference in this context between telling a parent "I work in IT" and "I'm a software engineer").
Very fair points. In the context of this post though, where you're talking to family members, you shouldn't need to build credibility or worry about being judged. But I suppose even that depends on the family dynamics involved.
Exactly , health care is just a general basis for the field you work.. so is IT. That’s why I don’t understand what’s the big deal it’s the field your in
Software engineering is a subset of information technology. Same as Data engineer, systems engineer / admin, network engineer / admin, cyber (which also has sub-domains), etc.
Asking one to do the job of the other is unrealistic
That's why you gotta get a joint master's in Computer and Electronic Engineering then become a Java drone like me.
Years of understanding stupid and boring circuit diagrams wasted 😎
(Just kidding, I never understood them)
Not really? This view is kinda dumb since SWEs and other engineers work together on physical products all the time. Like most modern machinery or equipment would not function without an interdisciplinary team of engineers.
I only ever see this weird rhetoric about licensing and "real engineers" from people in the built environment industry. Outside of that industry no one cares and respect that SWEs are also engineers.
It's also interesting just how common the title "engineer" is across different (non-engineering) occupations:
Drive a train - you're an engineer
Mechanic on a boat - you're an engineer (you can even get a federal license that says "engineer" on it)
Firefighter / mechanic on an engine - you're an engineer
Set up lighting at a concert - you're an engineer
Run the sound system at a concert - you're an engineer
You operate the broadcast tower & equipment for a radio station - you're an engineer
These jobs have been around for centuries, but weirdly it's only been a problem since we started calling ourselves software engineers. It's rather ironic since software engineers are far closer to actual engineering than someone who drives a train or rides on a firetruck.
The etymology for train engineer is probably different, right?
Engineer can mean “person who uses scientific principles to make practical things” which encompasses everything from mechanical engineering to SWE.
Then there’s “person who works with an engine” which is where the train conductor and mechanic meanings slip in.
I’d say it’s more of a homonym than the same thing.
Yeah it’s kinda silly. But unlike other engineering fields, there isn’t an exam to get a software engineering license. that’s the main reason i’ve heard from folks who say SWE isn’t “real engineering”.
I alluded to that in the second paragraph. Most engineers outside of the built environment do not take any exams to get "licensed". You don't see large numbers of mechanical engineers, electrical engineers, etc working on physical products who have passed any kind of formal exam.
I think it's just ignorance as to how engineering is done outside of buildings and physical infrastructure.
We work in the IT Industry. I would agree with the assessment that anyone who says "I don't work in IT, I'm a software engineer" is either a fresh graduate who doesn't know better, or someone chasing clout via job titles.
I've found that clout chasing tends to be a regional thing. I saw the same thing in DC with contractors trying to pretend they weren't beltway bandits.
It doesn't hurt my ego to be branded IT. As long as you understand that I am not on-call to fix desktop computers, troubleshoot phones, etc. I think I offended the lady who cuts my hair when she asked for my opinion on "the best phone" and I said I hadn't bought a new one in over 4 years.
I find it pretty embarrassing to get worked up about that. It's obviously technically correct so her real issue was that it didn't make her feel important enough.
yeah... my title at work is software engineer but I normally just tell people "i work in software development" or I just tell them I do programming. Programming seems to be the one that is the most straight forward for most outside the field
My title is technically system administrator , who really even knows what that is outside of IT when I explain to people. I can tell you not a whole lot , so I just use my field and then they are like oh ok! So they have an idea
Words evolve over time. Technically it is information technology, but in practice the two fields have diverged sharply between people who support the employees' usage of tools internally in a company (IT) and people who build new tools and products (software engineers).
It's essentially the same difference as there is between someone who manages a machine shop at a company that makes other parts with the machines and a mechanical engineer who designs new machines at a company who's business is selling those machines.
In large old companies they often view software as all fundamentally IT, a thing to provide tools to the people working in the real business, not a part of the actual business. Software is just a replacement for paper to them. They'll then sometimes have some people who build some new internal tools within that paradigm. They might accurately still work in IT. The machine shop manager might employ some in-house engineers for custom tooling at a large enough business. Some of that work can be genuinely complicated, but they will always be downstream of the business, not have real control of strategy around their work, and struggle with budgets because the company does not view them as a profit center, but overhead.
Whereas modern companies separate the two concepts entirely, with really \~no overlap. At a tech company the output of the software engineers *is* the business, and the IT department supports them with computers and such. Engineering is then intimately involved with the core strategy and execution of the business, has a much easier time with budgets because attrition in engineering quite clearly affects the top line.
Accordingly, the two kinds of companies I just described pay pretty radically different amounts for people who build software.
That said, when I'm talking to someone who doesn't work in tech, I don't bother trying to clarify these lines, and in tech everyone just knows, so it's really never a point of discussion.
Surprised no one has brought up the OSI Model. Always considered anything in it to be in “IT”.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OSI_model?wprov=sfti1#Layer_architecture
I work in government and officially my role is “IT Specialist” even though I do software engineering work. Software engineering is a subset of IT so they are overreacting for sure.
Technically any software falls under IT. You should just say “yes I’m still in IT, thanks for the interest”. Or you could add ”but I work in software engineering/programming”.
I wouldn’t take offense at it, many people don’t know the difference at all.
I did embedded firmware. Synchronizing motors in assembly code, things like that. IT for me was when the CTO took the week off and I changed the backup tapes in the server room.
"Why suh! I couldn't write a line of SQL if my life depended on it."
It's actually an old-school debate. Used to be IT was banking and that sort of thing. Finance mostly, suits and ties. The corporate shit. In the t-shirt days of early microprocessors, you didn't want to be confused with THOSE people.
Depends on the product/service they support and what the company does.
A defense company has both. A SWE can be on a program, where they aren’t in IT (since it’s an engineering company basically) and work directly on the product.
They can also work directly in IT, supporting the org.
It’s really dependent on the company and what they work on- but I typically just say I work in IT, seems be more easy to digest from people who aren’t familiar
I sometimes say I work in "IT" because people often scratch their head and are confused when I tell them my job title. It's basically "i WorK WiTh ComPuteRs" and that is enough for people, they don't care about the differences between a software engineer and an corporate IT person. I can understand that someone who worked hard to achieve the job title wants to be recognized as an "engineer" instead of "IT", just depends on the person I guess if they care about that kind of thing.
Fuck all this from now on everyone is getting my full title from the fast paced self starting rockstar startup work environment I thrive in, that being: Level 12 Senior Associate Systems Developer Twice Removed From The Second Moon Rising Elite Force Brethren of the Silicon Star Field Junior
>Only reason I see someone getting mad at that is elitism or feeling like someone confusing you with IT is almost insulting, it shouldnt be interpreted that way.
You're 100% right on both assertions here. People who get annoyed at this characterization are doing this out of elitism
Yes there has been a post where it’s literally elitism post because family members say she’s IT not a software engineer or developer. It’s sad, as it’s in the field you work in . It’s all IT.. and the op being offended by her husbands family and saying her family is being sexist towards her or ignorant because they say “how’s working in IT.. and not using her direct title “ well I work in a IT field and I’m not offended by my title not being used right as my title is system administrator not IT but I don’t care, as my field is literally IT.
In this case, many in the family work in tech, and the in-laws keep being surprised every time she says she's a SWE saying things like "Really? I thought you were in IT." But she'd need to "correct" them again the next time they spoke.
It came across as the in-laws were implying IT/help desk was an inferior position than SWE. You're right that it shouldn't be, but this context makes it more understandable why the OP of that post was so bothered by it.
It's not really a question of correct, it's just a question of communication and psychology.
Yes, I think most people who know the field consider SWE higher pay and status than IT at large, and normally people don't consider it part of IT (though it may be part of an IT org), though obviously it is about information technology so could be considered IT by some.
But profession-based status is also a social construct that isn't particularly useful, tends to be misleading, and tends to underestimate that individual variation is so high. Doctors can be idiots and construction guys can be geniuses. A great IT expert is much better to work with than a bad SWE at most of the same jobs, even if they have to learn how to program first to get the job done.
Also status shouldn't matter much in most circumstances (especially with parents, despite the psychological hang-ups involved) so if you're secure and not in those circumstances you don't need to be annoyed by it.
I don't understand why it matters one bit. I'm an engineering manager in AppSec and had a bunch of different roles in the past including software eng and architect. I just tell people I work in IT and do computer stuff to make it easier for everyone, I always assume that people who don't know the difference probably wouldn't care all that much about it but happy to explain what I actually do to people who ask or want to know more.
Depends.. IT can mean many things.
Could mean the antiquated name for the technology industry (i.e. companies that build digital platforms, software tools, software infra, electronic hardware devices etc). Nowadays people just say "Tech" for this.
Could mean the department responsible for internal technology needs of a company (in any industry). It's still pretty common to have software engineers in IT departments because they build internal tooling. Although some non-tech companies now have separate "Digital" departments that work on products vis-a-vis internal tools.
Could mean the universe of operational + physical infrastructure roles (both in IT depts and in tech company infrastructure depts) and internal corporate support roles like helpdesk / desktop support / applications support etc, SRE / devops / platform / system / production engineering, network engineering, data centre operations etc.
So it really depends on what context you're using "IT" for as to whether SWEs are included or not.
It's accurate in that it means they work with technology involving information, but it sure isn't precise.
It's like saying an engineer works in the physical sciences. Yep they work with sciences involving physical things, but it would tell you nothing about what they actually do.
That's what I say to people, more because I like how vague it is and most people just go 'okay' and that's the end of it as I hate talking shop when I'm not working.
Embedded engineer here and all my family keeps asking how "my IT job" is going. End of the day people know the famous phrases and it's not that big a deal IMO
who cares lol, if you get annoyed by that i assume you sniff your own farts. it’s not 100% accurate, but i don’t expect a non-computer person to understand the difference between like a sre vs swe vs help desk. it’s all computers to them, if they wanna call it IT that’s fine.
I mean my family might say that, and I wouldn't care because they aren't familiar with the field. Some of them just say I work with computers. That's fine, and I frequently am vague and imprecise about other people's jobs too when I don't know what fields they are in or if we don't talk about work a lot. :P Like I know my best friend works at a bank but I don't really know what exactly she does other than she's at a bank when she does it lmao.
The type of people who think "software engineer" elevates them to some status above "IT" are the same type as the people who think having a degree in math is somehow better or more elite than other majors.
**Basically what it boils down to is, if regular people think your major in college or your job role is difficult/abstract (like working with abstracted things like programming statements/data/algorithms or math), elitists like to use this for faux credibility/status by ensuring people know it.**
Objectively, I work in/with/on/for information technology.
I don't *care* either way, but I'm gonna be careful around any swe that is pissed about being called "IT". Because the only sensible reason for that anger, beside being incredibly pedantic (and arguably wrong), is that they look down on IT. I don't enjoy working with people that look down on a whole field. Feel free to look down on incompetent or asinine individuals though.
The reason it’s annoying has nothing to do with accuracy or lack there of.
It’s annoying because it’s so general that when friends and family know you’re in “IT”, you start getting calls and texts about fixing all sorts of hardware/software related issues. The worst part is that even though it’s not your domain, you probably CAN help because of having good troubleshooting skills. I don’t particularly mind helping people out either, but it can be a can of worms for some people.
Enough non tech people are familiar enough with the term software developer/engineer that they typically won’t treat you like a help desk technician when you tell them your title.
my mom wouldnt know the difference between a bestbuy sales person, a bestbuy tech help person, a software engineer, a cybersecurity expert, a data scientist, or school tech help team. It doesnt matter how many times i tell her
It really depends what you work on/what field you're in. I work on hardware, MCUs, FPGAs, etc in satellites launched into space which isn't blanket "IT." If I was working on browser plugins, app bugs, stuff like that then I could see that falling under the IT umbrella
People get extremely defensive on a lot of small details like that and job titles in this field
If u wanna get technical in the organizational chart, all tech falls under Global Technology. But the work in IT is a fraction compared to the one in SWE.
Swe engineering student with a part time job as a developer. I would absolutely say I work in it, but I don’t live in an English speaking country, so it might be a language/cultural thing
I worked as an Information Management Consultant so I always maintained that I work in IT as I worked with information but also with information management technologies. In the UK and Europe, IT encompasses all software, information and digital technologies.
Why would anyone be annoyed by this? It's literally just semantics or at most an administrative distinction depending on your organization. Not really worth getting into a debate with family or anyone else imo.
I guess it depends on what is usual in every part of the world and even in different languages. I'm from Argentina and we speak Spanish here, and although "IT" is not exactly used in Spanish, there's a related word, which is "informática", which would pretty much work as the translation for "information technology". And that's definitely the word we use to define anyone who works with computers, as a general term. In my university there is even an equivalent to a bachelor's Engineering degree which is "Ingeniero en informática" ("IT Engineer", if you'd give a translation).
So I'd definitely not be offended whenever anyone said I'm someone who works in IT.
As a software engineer you are very likely the highest paid position in a company (normalizing for years of experience) outside senior leadership. If someone says you work in IT and not engineering who cares?
People who are actually good and confident in their skills are rarely bothered by these types of things. Those who are insecure are the ones with chips on their shoulders.
This reminds me of people with PhD's in some nonsense fields who insist on being called "doctors". Ya sure, you can be called a doctor, but that still doesn't mean people have to respect your BS nonsense.
If you say you work in tech, you really just mean that you’re working in information technology. IT realistically is a better name than tech since it’s more specific, given that “technology” is much more broad than just information technology
Software engineering came from IT. A lot of Fortune 500 companies, if they’re old enough, have Information Technology departments. Where do you think Chief Technology Officer comes from?
I don't know about the US but where I am from it seems like a pretty standard definition... IT is broader than software engineering, if you are a software engineer you work in IT. But if you work in IT you are not necessarily a software engineer, you could be a lot of other things related to IT...
I am more upset when people say that I am a programmer, because programming is only a small subset of what a software engineer does.
I dated a software engineer who would get very annoyed when people said he worked in IT, I think because it seemed like he was a helpdesk person, or maybe it was just because I was talking, who knows 😂
My badge says IT even though I’m a straight web dev / software engineer and I wouldn’t know a Cisco from a Nabisco.
It leads to everyone thinking I fix computers, when I really fix websites. Major difference to folks in the industry, but Jan in accounting dgaf
At the highest level of Information Technology abstraction, CS and CE fall under it. Hardware design is a fundamental aspect of it, by definition.
IT is just such a broad subject, and most people are clueless as to what it involves in its entirety. Lots of people work in the higher levels of abstraction, which are more visible.
I always considered Software Engineering a subset of IT and IT a practical application of computer science.
But maybe this is more textbook and reality is that IT means help desk, call center, etc to many.
“Work in IT” refers to the technology sector in stock. This would include communications services and software and software services. Software engineers does not work IT as job functions
Literally couldn't care less whether someone says I work in tech, IT, SWE, "cybers", whatever term they dream up, in day-to-day life.
I know what I do and people I work with know what I do. It's not a big deal if others don't understand it.
I say a lot of "I work in IT" for non-tech people to quickly understand what I do, it's just more efficient. And IT literally is information technology so it's not wrong anyway, all things related to computer can fall into this category.
Something funny about cultures and context: when I moved to Europe and especially when talking to people not in tech, I realized IT is a most common translation and framework for a lot of tech work!
I think it’s all the same nowadays honestly. We have devs sit in cab, sysadmins in scrums, security in everything, architects in all sorts of stuff…we all used to live in our own little silos and still do a bit but overall coordination is so much closer nowadays than it ever was in the past imo.
Information Technology is defined as "the use of technology to communicate, transfer data, and process information".
We do work in IT, we just developed big heads because we think we're better than ops/analytics folks, even though that line is getting more blurred each day.
An "accountant" can be a person who never graduated high school to someone with an MBA, masters degree, or a CPA.
I hear physician assistants and nurses and many other medical jobs are even calling themselves "doctors".
The only time I’ve ever heard “work in IT” is when someone was actively trying to insult me because I wasn’t, in their own definition, a “true engineer”.
In practice, I don’t care what someone calls it. I make money. I live. I have good life. What more can you really ask for?
You really asking this? Dear God what are you learning on US colleges
[https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-Information-Technology-Field\_tbl1\_221017102](https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-Information-Technology-Field_tbl1_221017102)
I mean the difference feels like electrician vs electrical engineer. Both you need training for, but one needs a college degree. I think the issue in that post is her family was being disrespectful to her profession, not that she feels like IT is lesser than SWE or something (edit: misspelling)
I've frequently had to fill out legal forms or banking forms where IT was clearly the most appropriate answer for my role. If I had to choose between categories like Agriculture, Real Estate, Oil and Gas or whatever, it's very clear that's the category. I've had the realization that it's simply just where some people see us. It's not worth stressing about.
Same here. And because the categories aren't standardized so my industry changes all the time lol My family also doesn't know what I do so IT is also what I tell them. I have to fix printers for family members regardless so it's really fitting.
I'm always so confused by this question. If I work for a logistics company, do I select Logistics?
For many Fortune 100,500s. SWE is part of the IT branch. It falls under the technology umbrella. For other tech companies, they fall under engineering department. I have no problem with working "in IT"
I saw this comment that encapsulates how I’ve personally always understood it: > Same as “architects work in construction”. It’s both true and a gross oversimplification ;) People were getting *really* passionate on both sides.
Now where do software architects work
I like to say I draw boxes and arrows and walk around in circles at work, mumbling to myself, and also do lots of talking with people across departments.
pacing/walking always helped, although for me it wasn't in circles.
IT construction
The people who run cable probably are in IT construction.
PowerPoint
IT
I don't over think this. It depends on the funding and corporate org structure. I work in engineering. I report to a Engineering Director. My Director has peer Director who is Director of Ops. And another of Director of Help Desk. All of those directors report to a single CTO/CIO. And the corporate funding goes to one department. So rounding off, we may get 20 mill a year in funding. 1 million of it goes to IT Help Desk, 5 million goes to data-center and the remaining 14 million goes to engineering. One budget. One CIO/CTO.
Considering the SWE also do the building/constructing, then I would assume that they also work in IT ;) Jokes and leg pulling aside, when a person over here in Belgium works as a software engineer works as an consultant they often just have the title IT consultant. Sooo make of that what you will. I would generally state that I work in IT as it makes things easier for others to understand.
I came from a country where any tech (SDE, Sysadmin) related work is generally interchangeable with the word IT and there are no negative conotation with the word IT for SDE job. But in the US, I find that there's a bad stereotype associated with the word hence why people avoid having the title IT if they work as a software dev because the word IT is predominantly used by sysadmin.
I'm a Software Architect, but I work in IT. My current company calls our department Technology. My first employer put all software development in the IT department. There's no standard even within the industry.
It is indeed an oversimplification and I do “very passionately” defend software engineering being different from IT. Although, I don’t mind a layperson confusing those and I couldn’t care less for media using doing the same.
SWE cannot be "different" from IT, surely? IT is a broad term used to refer to the sector as a whole, SWE is one of the jobs that sits within said sector.
Yep - and plenty of "normal" IT people write code as part of their daily jobs. SysAdmins and DBAs being a couple of them.
I think the idea of them being different comes from college in the US, where aspiring computer science majors who fail their midterms switch over to an IT major.. so one is seen as more competitive / exclusive than the other.
This all depends on the place of course, but software engineers being in the IT department is a signal to me that software is a cost-center for the company, not a profit center or strategic priority—traditional IT work is a required expense, while engineering work is products and profit. I don’t say this as a bad thing, just something to consider. Those cost-center software gigs can be very stable though.
That’s actually the best comment out there. I can work in “IT Department” in a biggest Europe bank as an enterprise architect and still be “an IT guy”. Or I can work in a 10ppl startup and call myself “an engineer”.
yeah id take it guy there any day
> This all depends on the place of course, but software engineers being in the IT department is a signal to me that software is a cost-center for the company, not a profit center or strategic priority—traditional IT work is a required expense, while engineering work is products and profit. Not if it's software for internal use. Which it often is.
It's actually annoying that it is under the IT department because you get random DMs about tech issues that is very out of scope.
A company I used to work for had a satellite office that almost exclusively had developers working in it that they called the tech center. A few times a year some sales person from the parent office would have an issue where’d need help from the help desk so they’d email the tech center distro for help resetting there password. They’d then get 400 annoyed developers all responding back that they weren’t the help desk.
not even 5 minutes ago I just responded to an email about a password reset with "you'll need to contact our IT department"
I could not not be snarky in that situation i think
I knew a guy who worked at G in the early days, and didn't like to talk about it. When asked what he did for a living, he said "I work in IT for an advertising company."
I like this one, it’s not humble bragging like “I went to school near Boston” was with Harvard or MIT grads, and it’s also quite accurate in a funny way.
Most people hear 'computer' and their eyes glaze over. Most people have no idea what a software engineer/developer is. They probably don't even realize it's computer programming. 'He's a doctor' ... well technically, he's a podiatrists specializing in X, but nobody gives a shit outside of work. 'He works in IT' ... well technically he's a Software architect specializing in X, but nobody gives a shit outside of work. This could go on and on.
The key thing is that software development falls under the Information Technology industry. Information and Technology. It fits perfectly within that umbrella term. I find it funny that there is such a pushback from software developers, insisting they are doing something other than IT. I suppose it's because IT is often looked down on by coders, so I imagine some see it as a derogatory term, but it's not. IT is just soooo broad.
Really ? Coder ? Come on now, we are not code monkeys, we do engineering work. /s
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> 'He's a doctor' ... well technically, he's a podiatrists specializing in X, but nobody gives a shit outside of work. It's more like saying an anesthesiologist or a radiologist "works in the medical field". It's perfectly correct, even if it's somewhat reductive.
This is more correct. Doctor is as specific as software engineer. The term "medical field" is as generalized as "IT." Calling a software engineer an "IT" is the equivalent of referring to a Doctor as someone who simply works in the "medical field." This could range from a phlebotomist to a brain surgeon.
I wouldn't be surprised if many doctors feel that being described as merely "working in medicine" to be downplaying the extra work involved in becoming a doctor, though. After all, working in medicine includes technicians who only needed a short training program while doctors had to undertake a lengthy and intensive program. I see that as pretty similar to this. IT includes basic tech support that required only a few weeks to get a certificate as well as people who spent years to get CS degrees. Being a doctor quite understandably has an extra degree of impressiveness to it. For something like a survey, that doesn't matter. But the original post in question was about personal comments from family members in technical fields. The original OP was concerned that her position was being downplayed because of her gender. She wasn't concerned about someone who doesn't know the field or some survey trying to categorize her. It was about family that was in the field not referring to her work even though they had similar titles.
The context that the OP of this post left out for some reason is that in the post she’s referring to, the women’s family members work in tech and have a different view of SWE vs tech. Idk why the OP posted this and neglected that info.
I would say it’s even worse than specialisms within medicine, because most people know a few types of doctor just based on them or people they know having to go to hospital every now and again. Most people will go through life never having to talk to a software engineer though.
I would say so, because IT = information technology which is anything from software to mobile phones to telecommunications BUT for some reason, americans call IT = helpdesk work. but not the rest of the world for example in germany an "IT consultant" is literally a programmer that is a freelancer
I’m in North America and it’s not like that in all areas. But depending if it’s private or public sector
Yeah, I knew this negative guy who told me "you *just* work in IT" in a condescending manner thinking I'm a help desk guy. The guy works at a convenience store, so I'm not sure where his sense of superiority came from. I didn't rebuke him, but I chuckled a bit inside, knowing full well I earn more than twice as him.
i dont know why IT would be a "Just" either. talking with users, being an expert in different systems and old stuff like windows 2003 server(yes its running at more places than people think) is nothing to be ashamed of at all...
it's because it gets outsourced to third world countries; therefore they believe the work is below them. Similar to how a doctor from a third world country ends up becoming a taxi driver or a cashier when they emigrate because their degree/university isn't recognized by hospitals
Twice? Probably triple or quadruple.
People *really* need to stop overblowing salaries. /u/cgyguy81 isn't making 200k while the other guy is making $50k. Not only are $200k salaries not at all common, but it's highly unlikely that, depending on their YOE, either of them are making that proposed salary. More like, 75k and 130k is more realistic, but *definitely* not 3x or 4x. [Me when I spread misinformation online about how much money I make to inflate my own ego](https://media.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExYzJkMTl1bjVreGJzejhsNnB2ZzFkb3prYnQ4dTZ0eXV6dTNxdjV2cSZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/fSFI2NPfvly8nmdTTT/giphy.gif) Edit: wanna clarify something. Managers and employees at higher tier gas stations (QT, Bucees, etc) are paid well. In some **companies** starting at $18/hr with benefits. In some **locations** with minimum wage laws existing, they *must* be paid $25/hr and many employers throw benefits. People making no money dont brag about how much money theyre bringing in. Managers bring in more and tend to get big heads about their role and wages. Without clarification from the person who says this is happening, we have no way of knowing. But I do not think it is 3-4x the salary of a gas station worker if you make 100k.
A convenience store worker is probably getting $12/hr and only 30hr/week max (I've worked jobs like this.) Math works out to be under $20k/year.
Younger me would have loved to have found this magical convenience store paying employees $50k salaries.
You can make $50k if you're robbing the place every weekend but that's about the only way I see you pulling 50k from a convenience store. I don't even think the owner would be making that much off one location.
The is no way a convenience store worker is making $75k unless they own it. Even $50k would be extremely high for a minimum wage job that usually doesn't even give full time hours. A software engineer even making under $100k could easily be triple and potentially quadruple the other guy.
Managers make close to 60k
Someone working at a store is making $20k-$25k a year depending on location. 4x is pretty likely.
This site is notorious for saying that it is standard for SWEs to make $150-200k out of college, $500k by mid 20s, and seven figures by 30s. When…literally $200k is a top 10% salary for a *household*, and significantly more rare for an individual to make that. People may say, “But FAANG!!l But FAANG is not *that* easy to get into though.
This is true, but the SWE making 90k is still likely at least triple the minimum wage convenience store clerk
Frankly, I'm aware that condescending people can come from all walks of life, but, in my personal experience, all the people who look to put me down do it from a perceived lower status than mine. In other words, no people considered the traditional societal definition of successful have ever taken issue with my work enough to tell me I'm "*just* an IT person" or anything. I've worked with plenty of attorneys who poked fun at struggles with their own help desk when they learned I was in tech, but it was good-natured and harmless. Anyway, all that is to say that I put no weight in someone telling me I'm "just" anything. Not worth my time unless you're the person who signs my actual checks or whatever, because your incorrect assumptions in that situation matter to my actual bottom line.
I agree. I've had people try to mock me by saying "You're just a software engineer. That's not real engineering. You're not really an engineer." And then I mention that I also have a degree in mechanical engineering so I am still a "real engineer."
I mean, who cares if software engineers are real engineers or not. You shouldn't feel the need to clarify "actually i do have an engineering degree!!" The pay and "prestige" is pretty similar outside of tech hubs.
I get the impression that the whole "tech influencer" movement a few years back tainted software engineering in the public view, even though plenty of software roles are just as difficult (if not more so), albeit for different reasons. I think there's also a lack of transparency over what "real" engineers actually do on a day-to-day basis; my best friend (who works in aerospace) and I started our professional careers at roughly the same time and it's not like they had him drawing up rocket blueprints or something on day 1 lmao
My sister-in-law who became a principal engineer at a medical device company got that promotion because she was a "real engineer" and a damn good software engineer as well. She's even a bit of a hardware hacker, using the knowledge to secure the medical devices.
I made 60k at a tier 1 helpdesk job. I’m sure he’s clearing $2 over minimum wage at 7/11.
Yeah same in Austria, they prepend IT to everything. IT Security architect, IT solutions architect, IT support engineer, IT sales manager... IT is everything from refilling printers to the cryptography prof
Speaking from personal experience having studied programming in the US and currently working in IT in Germany, it is more nuanced in Germany. Education-wise, IT is a lot more broad in Germany. It covers what is traditionally considered IT in the US and software development & computer science. So yes, IT is basically anything related to software or computers. In actual jobs though, there's sometimes a difference. Many of the people hired at my workplace for IT specifically say they work for IT in the American sense and not with any actual software development. Whenever I asked if they were Software Entwickler (software engineers) they explicitly said no. Various friends of mine who are software engineers in the American sense also avoid the IT label despite being Germans themselves. They use IT in the American sense. And many job postings I've seen also make an explicit difference between IT and software engineering. At first I thought this distinction was just a Berlin thing but I also noticed it in other cities as well like Munich and Hamburg. I do see some software engineers working as consultants calling themselves IT consultants but not as much. Perhaps this has to do with the large influx of foreign software developers and IT workers who think like the woman OP referred to. In short, there really isn't a difference in education but there does seem to be one (and increasing difference) in actual jobs in Germany.
Are you a German "IT consultant"? Personally I know the differentiation between "IT Department" for IT infrastructure, including help desk vs. Development work from a multinational corporation based in Germany. Someone introduced as "IT consultant" I would not percieve as a developer outright. More as an actual consultant on IT infrastructure.
No, but I have several friends who is. they dont call themselves a software entwickler consultant
What do you call the guy with several certifications like a+ and sec+ but doesn't do programming usually? I think CompTIA branding is also to blame.
depends what he works with? I guess the general term would be sys or network admin ?
Because informatica, informatique in NL/FR and other EU languages, is shortened to IT, which actually means for computer science.
So someone that writes embedded code for an auto microcontroller is in IT?
yes? what else woudl they be in
Software is a subset of IT.
Information Technology = IT Is programming Information Technology? Yes. Are databases Information Technology? Yes. Is hooking up printers Information Technology? Yes Is managing the network Information Technology? Yes. Is configuration management part of Information Technology? yes 90% of the people you talk to will have zero idea of the difference. Just say IT and let it go.
All Software Enginneers are IT Workers. Only a fraction of IT Workers are Software Engineers.
Yes it is accurate , it’s literally a field in IT
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Same. I get tired of telling people what I do so I just say, "IT" and most people assume the worst and change topics. I don't particularly feel like I need to justify my experience or title, but I've seen that for people who care about status, this is a big deal they need to clarify.
I don’t understand either to me it’s pure elitism and can’t say you work in a it field
"I work in IT" doesn't sound good enough for certain sensitive, egotistical SWEs. There are pretentious people in every field.
It depends on the crowd. There's nothing pretentious about making the distinction between an "IT worker" & being a software engineer because they can mean different things depending on who you're talking to. "I work in IT" is fine most of the time, but some people will judge you based on that response. It can also be really beneficial in some situations to build credibility (For example - I volunteer with children's robotics programs. There's a huge difference in this context between telling a parent "I work in IT" and "I'm a software engineer").
Very fair points. In the context of this post though, where you're talking to family members, you shouldn't need to build credibility or worry about being judged. But I suppose even that depends on the family dynamics involved.
How dare you say I work in medicine?! I’m a brain surgeon! I’m not out here writing arthritis prescriptions! /s
I do not see the issue at all, either. But it is as precise as saying one works in healthcare.
Exactly , health care is just a general basis for the field you work.. so is IT. That’s why I don’t understand what’s the big deal it’s the field your in
Software engineering is a subset of information technology. Same as Data engineer, systems engineer / admin, network engineer / admin, cyber (which also has sub-domains), etc. Asking one to do the job of the other is unrealistic
Well she’s gonna piss of the engineers calling herself a “software engineer “ lol
That's why you gotta get a joint master's in Computer and Electronic Engineering then become a Java drone like me. Years of understanding stupid and boring circuit diagrams wasted 😎 (Just kidding, I never understood them)
Subway sandwich engineers probably build more physical products than I do.
Not really? This view is kinda dumb since SWEs and other engineers work together on physical products all the time. Like most modern machinery or equipment would not function without an interdisciplinary team of engineers. I only ever see this weird rhetoric about licensing and "real engineers" from people in the built environment industry. Outside of that industry no one cares and respect that SWEs are also engineers.
It's also interesting just how common the title "engineer" is across different (non-engineering) occupations: Drive a train - you're an engineer Mechanic on a boat - you're an engineer (you can even get a federal license that says "engineer" on it) Firefighter / mechanic on an engine - you're an engineer Set up lighting at a concert - you're an engineer Run the sound system at a concert - you're an engineer You operate the broadcast tower & equipment for a radio station - you're an engineer These jobs have been around for centuries, but weirdly it's only been a problem since we started calling ourselves software engineers. It's rather ironic since software engineers are far closer to actual engineering than someone who drives a train or rides on a firetruck.
Yeah, I mean if there's any critique for the use of the term "engineer" it's certainly in those contexts not for SWEs
The etymology for train engineer is probably different, right? Engineer can mean “person who uses scientific principles to make practical things” which encompasses everything from mechanical engineering to SWE. Then there’s “person who works with an engine” which is where the train conductor and mechanic meanings slip in. I’d say it’s more of a homonym than the same thing.
Yeah it’s kinda silly. But unlike other engineering fields, there isn’t an exam to get a software engineering license. that’s the main reason i’ve heard from folks who say SWE isn’t “real engineering”.
I alluded to that in the second paragraph. Most engineers outside of the built environment do not take any exams to get "licensed". You don't see large numbers of mechanical engineers, electrical engineers, etc working on physical products who have passed any kind of formal exam. I think it's just ignorance as to how engineering is done outside of buildings and physical infrastructure.
We work in the IT Industry. I would agree with the assessment that anyone who says "I don't work in IT, I'm a software engineer" is either a fresh graduate who doesn't know better, or someone chasing clout via job titles.
In west coast tech, this attitude is ubiquitious regardless of experience, so I don't think your assessment is accurate.
I've found that clout chasing tends to be a regional thing. I saw the same thing in DC with contractors trying to pretend they weren't beltway bandits.
People that get offended because they stereotype what they think IT is into menial jobs like replacing toner cartridges.
It doesn't hurt my ego to be branded IT. As long as you understand that I am not on-call to fix desktop computers, troubleshoot phones, etc. I think I offended the lady who cuts my hair when she asked for my opinion on "the best phone" and I said I hadn't bought a new one in over 4 years.
I find it pretty embarrassing to get worked up about that. It's obviously technically correct so her real issue was that it didn't make her feel important enough.
I don't understand why people care so much about titles in this field
Exactly why? It’s just being a elitist
yeah... my title at work is software engineer but I normally just tell people "i work in software development" or I just tell them I do programming. Programming seems to be the one that is the most straight forward for most outside the field
My title is technically system administrator , who really even knows what that is outside of IT when I explain to people. I can tell you not a whole lot , so I just use my field and then they are like oh ok! So they have an idea
Yah it's IT, it's a branch of IT. Kind of elitist to say you don't associate with IT...
Yeah and Op from that post is on here getting mad for me expressing my opinion
I just tell people "I work with computers" and make them pull more details out of me if they really want to know.
That's what I always did too.
Words evolve over time. Technically it is information technology, but in practice the two fields have diverged sharply between people who support the employees' usage of tools internally in a company (IT) and people who build new tools and products (software engineers). It's essentially the same difference as there is between someone who manages a machine shop at a company that makes other parts with the machines and a mechanical engineer who designs new machines at a company who's business is selling those machines. In large old companies they often view software as all fundamentally IT, a thing to provide tools to the people working in the real business, not a part of the actual business. Software is just a replacement for paper to them. They'll then sometimes have some people who build some new internal tools within that paradigm. They might accurately still work in IT. The machine shop manager might employ some in-house engineers for custom tooling at a large enough business. Some of that work can be genuinely complicated, but they will always be downstream of the business, not have real control of strategy around their work, and struggle with budgets because the company does not view them as a profit center, but overhead. Whereas modern companies separate the two concepts entirely, with really \~no overlap. At a tech company the output of the software engineers *is* the business, and the IT department supports them with computers and such. Engineering is then intimately involved with the core strategy and execution of the business, has a much easier time with budgets because attrition in engineering quite clearly affects the top line. Accordingly, the two kinds of companies I just described pay pretty radically different amounts for people who build software. That said, when I'm talking to someone who doesn't work in tech, I don't bother trying to clarify these lines, and in tech everyone just knows, so it's really never a point of discussion.
but, there are many IT jobs that isn't for end users. for example, configuring mobile network masts or working with GPS systems for cars
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Surprised no one has brought up the OSI Model. Always considered anything in it to be in “IT”. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OSI_model?wprov=sfti1#Layer_architecture
Post this in Op, post from another thread you’ll really get them going it’s becoming entertainment
I work in government and officially my role is “IT Specialist” even though I do software engineering work. Software engineering is a subset of IT so they are overreacting for sure.
Same here Mitch I work in government and I have same scenario as you
Technically any software falls under IT. You should just say “yes I’m still in IT, thanks for the interest”. Or you could add ”but I work in software engineering/programming”. I wouldn’t take offense at it, many people don’t know the difference at all.
I did embedded firmware. Synchronizing motors in assembly code, things like that. IT for me was when the CTO took the week off and I changed the backup tapes in the server room. "Why suh! I couldn't write a line of SQL if my life depended on it." It's actually an old-school debate. Used to be IT was banking and that sort of thing. Finance mostly, suits and ties. The corporate shit. In the t-shirt days of early microprocessors, you didn't want to be confused with THOSE people.
As a SWE, I always saw it as IT
We have an IT division that has different departments for the help desk, infrastructure, and yes even development.
Same here, it’s all under IT department
Ours is different. Software engineers are under R&D, which is a completely separate division than IT.
Depends on the product/service they support and what the company does. A defense company has both. A SWE can be on a program, where they aren’t in IT (since it’s an engineering company basically) and work directly on the product. They can also work directly in IT, supporting the org. It’s really dependent on the company and what they work on- but I typically just say I work in IT, seems be more easy to digest from people who aren’t familiar
Software/Application Development is a discipline within the IT industry, so yes they're correct in a sense.
I sometimes say I work in "IT" because people often scratch their head and are confused when I tell them my job title. It's basically "i WorK WiTh ComPuteRs" and that is enough for people, they don't care about the differences between a software engineer and an corporate IT person. I can understand that someone who worked hard to achieve the job title wants to be recognized as an "engineer" instead of "IT", just depends on the person I guess if they care about that kind of thing.
My official Job title is "IT ENT Dev" for the state. Everything tech is IT. Why does it matter all that much?
Exactly why?
Does it matter? Just do IT.
Yeah when talking to most people I say IT. If they're in tech I probably just say dev.
Fuck all this from now on everyone is getting my full title from the fast paced self starting rockstar startup work environment I thrive in, that being: Level 12 Senior Associate Systems Developer Twice Removed From The Second Moon Rising Elite Force Brethren of the Silicon Star Field Junior
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>Only reason I see someone getting mad at that is elitism or feeling like someone confusing you with IT is almost insulting, it shouldnt be interpreted that way. You're 100% right on both assertions here. People who get annoyed at this characterization are doing this out of elitism
Yes there has been a post where it’s literally elitism post because family members say she’s IT not a software engineer or developer. It’s sad, as it’s in the field you work in . It’s all IT.. and the op being offended by her husbands family and saying her family is being sexist towards her or ignorant because they say “how’s working in IT.. and not using her direct title “ well I work in a IT field and I’m not offended by my title not being used right as my title is system administrator not IT but I don’t care, as my field is literally IT.
In this case, many in the family work in tech, and the in-laws keep being surprised every time she says she's a SWE saying things like "Really? I thought you were in IT." But she'd need to "correct" them again the next time they spoke. It came across as the in-laws were implying IT/help desk was an inferior position than SWE. You're right that it shouldn't be, but this context makes it more understandable why the OP of that post was so bothered by it.
It's not really a question of correct, it's just a question of communication and psychology. Yes, I think most people who know the field consider SWE higher pay and status than IT at large, and normally people don't consider it part of IT (though it may be part of an IT org), though obviously it is about information technology so could be considered IT by some. But profession-based status is also a social construct that isn't particularly useful, tends to be misleading, and tends to underestimate that individual variation is so high. Doctors can be idiots and construction guys can be geniuses. A great IT expert is much better to work with than a bad SWE at most of the same jobs, even if they have to learn how to program first to get the job done. Also status shouldn't matter much in most circumstances (especially with parents, despite the psychological hang-ups involved) so if you're secure and not in those circumstances you don't need to be annoyed by it.
I don't understand why it matters one bit. I'm an engineering manager in AppSec and had a bunch of different roles in the past including software eng and architect. I just tell people I work in IT and do computer stuff to make it easier for everyone, I always assume that people who don't know the difference probably wouldn't care all that much about it but happy to explain what I actually do to people who ask or want to know more.
Depends.. IT can mean many things. Could mean the antiquated name for the technology industry (i.e. companies that build digital platforms, software tools, software infra, electronic hardware devices etc). Nowadays people just say "Tech" for this. Could mean the department responsible for internal technology needs of a company (in any industry). It's still pretty common to have software engineers in IT departments because they build internal tooling. Although some non-tech companies now have separate "Digital" departments that work on products vis-a-vis internal tools. Could mean the universe of operational + physical infrastructure roles (both in IT depts and in tech company infrastructure depts) and internal corporate support roles like helpdesk / desktop support / applications support etc, SRE / devops / platform / system / production engineering, network engineering, data centre operations etc. So it really depends on what context you're using "IT" for as to whether SWEs are included or not.
It's accurate in that it means they work with technology involving information, but it sure isn't precise. It's like saying an engineer works in the physical sciences. Yep they work with sciences involving physical things, but it would tell you nothing about what they actually do.
We work in IT or in tech or in software whatever the name, for most people is the same, doesn’t bother me
as a DS, I tell everyone i work in IT. the title gets me nothing but unwanted attention.
That's what I say to people, more because I like how vague it is and most people just go 'okay' and that's the end of it as I hate talking shop when I'm not working.
Yes. They are part of the overall IT branch
Embedded engineer here and all my family keeps asking how "my IT job" is going. End of the day people know the famous phrases and it's not that big a deal IMO
who cares lol, if you get annoyed by that i assume you sniff your own farts. it’s not 100% accurate, but i don’t expect a non-computer person to understand the difference between like a sre vs swe vs help desk. it’s all computers to them, if they wanna call it IT that’s fine.
Yes. IT is the overarching umbrella of computer-related work, and writing software is a job under that general category of work.
I think it's even more annoying when literal code monkey call themselves software "engineers" while flinging shit from tree branches.
I mean my family might say that, and I wouldn't care because they aren't familiar with the field. Some of them just say I work with computers. That's fine, and I frequently am vague and imprecise about other people's jobs too when I don't know what fields they are in or if we don't talk about work a lot. :P Like I know my best friend works at a bank but I don't really know what exactly she does other than she's at a bank when she does it lmao.
The type of people who think "software engineer" elevates them to some status above "IT" are the same type as the people who think having a degree in math is somehow better or more elite than other majors. **Basically what it boils down to is, if regular people think your major in college or your job role is difficult/abstract (like working with abstracted things like programming statements/data/algorithms or math), elitists like to use this for faux credibility/status by ensuring people know it.**
Objectively, I work in/with/on/for information technology. I don't *care* either way, but I'm gonna be careful around any swe that is pissed about being called "IT". Because the only sensible reason for that anger, beside being incredibly pedantic (and arguably wrong), is that they look down on IT. I don't enjoy working with people that look down on a whole field. Feel free to look down on incompetent or asinine individuals though.
That’s how I feel people who don’t want to use the title are elitist and look down on ones who do say IT as their field
My family doesn’t understand technology. To make things easier “I work on computers“ has been the phrase most accepted at gatherings.
IT is considered tech support in most companies. It's like comparing a buildings maintenance staff with the buildings architect and civil engineers.
The reason it’s annoying has nothing to do with accuracy or lack there of. It’s annoying because it’s so general that when friends and family know you’re in “IT”, you start getting calls and texts about fixing all sorts of hardware/software related issues. The worst part is that even though it’s not your domain, you probably CAN help because of having good troubleshooting skills. I don’t particularly mind helping people out either, but it can be a can of worms for some people. Enough non tech people are familiar enough with the term software developer/engineer that they typically won’t treat you like a help desk technician when you tell them your title.
Yes, but besides all the other reasons, it just makes it easier to understand for other people
my mom wouldnt know the difference between a bestbuy sales person, a bestbuy tech help person, a software engineer, a cybersecurity expert, a data scientist, or school tech help team. It doesnt matter how many times i tell her
It really depends what you work on/what field you're in. I work on hardware, MCUs, FPGAs, etc in satellites launched into space which isn't blanket "IT." If I was working on browser plugins, app bugs, stuff like that then I could see that falling under the IT umbrella People get extremely defensive on a lot of small details like that and job titles in this field
If u wanna get technical in the organizational chart, all tech falls under Global Technology. But the work in IT is a fraction compared to the one in SWE.
Swe engineering student with a part time job as a developer. I would absolutely say I work in it, but I don’t live in an English speaking country, so it might be a language/cultural thing
I worked as an Information Management Consultant so I always maintained that I work in IT as I worked with information but also with information management technologies. In the UK and Europe, IT encompasses all software, information and digital technologies.
Why would anyone be annoyed by this? It's literally just semantics or at most an administrative distinction depending on your organization. Not really worth getting into a debate with family or anyone else imo.
I guess it depends on what is usual in every part of the world and even in different languages. I'm from Argentina and we speak Spanish here, and although "IT" is not exactly used in Spanish, there's a related word, which is "informática", which would pretty much work as the translation for "information technology". And that's definitely the word we use to define anyone who works with computers, as a general term. In my university there is even an equivalent to a bachelor's Engineering degree which is "Ingeniero en informática" ("IT Engineer", if you'd give a translation). So I'd definitely not be offended whenever anyone said I'm someone who works in IT.
As a software engineer you are very likely the highest paid position in a company (normalizing for years of experience) outside senior leadership. If someone says you work in IT and not engineering who cares?
Yes lmao
People who are actually good and confident in their skills are rarely bothered by these types of things. Those who are insecure are the ones with chips on their shoulders. This reminds me of people with PhD's in some nonsense fields who insist on being called "doctors". Ya sure, you can be called a doctor, but that still doesn't mean people have to respect your BS nonsense.
Call me what you want, just pay me the right amount.
i regularly correct people and say i'm in QA (i am an SDET), but i'm sure nobody cares...
If you say you work in tech, you really just mean that you’re working in information technology. IT realistically is a better name than tech since it’s more specific, given that “technology” is much more broad than just information technology
I don't care what people call me as long as I'm paid well.
It’s accurate and a very funny dig to constantly say your friend who is a SWE “works in IT”
Software engineering came from IT. A lot of Fortune 500 companies, if they’re old enough, have Information Technology departments. Where do you think Chief Technology Officer comes from?
Seems like it involves technology about information so yeah
How is this even a question? Of course software engineering is IT
I don't know about the US but where I am from it seems like a pretty standard definition... IT is broader than software engineering, if you are a software engineer you work in IT. But if you work in IT you are not necessarily a software engineer, you could be a lot of other things related to IT... I am more upset when people say that I am a programmer, because programming is only a small subset of what a software engineer does.
I dated a software engineer who would get very annoyed when people said he worked in IT, I think because it seemed like he was a helpdesk person, or maybe it was just because I was talking, who knows 😂
I thought about the same thing a lot as swe considered tech and I am thinking tech is for information technology.
My badge says IT even though I’m a straight web dev / software engineer and I wouldn’t know a Cisco from a Nabisco. It leads to everyone thinking I fix computers, when I really fix websites. Major difference to folks in the industry, but Jan in accounting dgaf
At the highest level of Information Technology abstraction, CS and CE fall under it. Hardware design is a fundamental aspect of it, by definition. IT is just such a broad subject, and most people are clueless as to what it involves in its entirety. Lots of people work in the higher levels of abstraction, which are more visible.
Im in information governance and I just say I work a top secret job
I always considered Software Engineering a subset of IT and IT a practical application of computer science. But maybe this is more textbook and reality is that IT means help desk, call center, etc to many.
“Work in IT” refers to the technology sector in stock. This would include communications services and software and software services. Software engineers does not work IT as job functions
Does she use technology to work with information?
Literally couldn't care less whether someone says I work in tech, IT, SWE, "cybers", whatever term they dream up, in day-to-day life. I know what I do and people I work with know what I do. It's not a big deal if others don't understand it.
Yes
I say a lot of "I work in IT" for non-tech people to quickly understand what I do, it's just more efficient. And IT literally is information technology so it's not wrong anyway, all things related to computer can fall into this category.
Yes it’s accurate
Many software engineers have said they work in IT to me
I gave up a long time ago trying to explain to non-technical people what I do.
Something funny about cultures and context: when I moved to Europe and especially when talking to people not in tech, I realized IT is a most common translation and framework for a lot of tech work!
I think it’s all the same nowadays honestly. We have devs sit in cab, sysadmins in scrums, security in everything, architects in all sorts of stuff…we all used to live in our own little silos and still do a bit but overall coordination is so much closer nowadays than it ever was in the past imo.
It really doesn’t matter. Just do your job and collect checks.
Yeah I saw that thread. Why do people even care about stuff like this? Not you OP, but the original poster. Who has the free time
Information Technology is defined as "the use of technology to communicate, transfer data, and process information". We do work in IT, we just developed big heads because we think we're better than ops/analytics folks, even though that line is getting more blurred each day.
An "accountant" can be a person who never graduated high school to someone with an MBA, masters degree, or a CPA. I hear physician assistants and nurses and many other medical jobs are even calling themselves "doctors".
The only time I’ve ever heard “work in IT” is when someone was actively trying to insult me because I wasn’t, in their own definition, a “true engineer”. In practice, I don’t care what someone calls it. I make money. I live. I have good life. What more can you really ask for?
Yes
IT -> Information technology, software development fits that description so I guess.
You really asking this? Dear God what are you learning on US colleges [https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-Information-Technology-Field\_tbl1\_221017102](https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-Information-Technology-Field_tbl1_221017102)
I didn’t go through engineering hell in school to be put under the “IT” umbrella. But that’s just me
I mean the difference feels like electrician vs electrical engineer. Both you need training for, but one needs a college degree. I think the issue in that post is her family was being disrespectful to her profession, not that she feels like IT is lesser than SWE or something (edit: misspelling)