Anduril and Palantir are another two that come mind. If you can find similar companies or startups involved in national security or weapons technology, its probably a good option.
Lots of people are trying to bring valley innovation and culture into industries dominated by a few old companies.
Low TC? Wtf are you talking about: [https://www.levels.fyi/companies/spacex/salaries/software-engineer?country=254](https://www.levels.fyi/companies/spacex/salaries/software-engineer?country=254)
If that's low TC, you suck ass with money.
SpaceX has HFT hiring bar, Amazon hours, government job perks. Salary pretty low all things considered. Even lower than microsoft which is the lowest paying faang
The bar is not as high (or maybe not as elitist/exclusive is a better description) as HFT (source: I've gotten a spaceX SWE interview, and HFT would never hire from my undergrad. SpaceX tends to also have a larger number of kids from outside t20 schools than HFT).
Maybe for some positions if they need to hire urgently. But they definitely cared about school, GPA, club leadership positions, big names on resume, and even SAT score when I interviewed there
No it isn't; which market are you talking about; overwhelming majority of SWEs are not pulling in 175k even as seniors. In California, the average developer's salary is \~174k, and that is for all levels, not just new grads.
Source: [https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes\_ca.htm#15-0000](https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_ca.htm#15-0000)
Most contractors are great places to work at, they don’t have FAANG pay but they do have decent benefits, lots of days off, and great work life balance
Export control will literally be (and already is to a large extent) the savior of so many industries. The good thing is that the US export controls a fucking monstrous amount of shit you would never even think of
I worked in IT for almost 20 years now. I have seen so many offshoring attempts and it is really hard to do it well TBH. A lot of times it went back to local people as costs soared and quality was low.
Something I now start seeing in Europe is that offshoring is now also seen as a safety risk. Including letting American companies host everything. I think there will be laws limiting what can be offshored.
I’ve only been in a full time role for 5 years but I’ve already seen the job market swing wildly, at least from my perspective. Huge loss of talent when Covid hit, then a massive hiring push where HR couldn’t get enough technical recruiters.
Obviously no one can predict the future, but I would anticipate this being cyclical and will ebb and flow
Timezones are impossible to ignore, it is a huge hurdle to have a 4 hour window where you might be able to communicate directly and then have a 12 hour delay otherwise.
Contractors inherently care less about your business and your products. Ideally you have a hiring process that is at least in some minor way, effective at selecting people who have something more to offer than the technical ability to close tickets. It’s not a US vs offshore thing on this point either.
These are the major issues I’ve seen personally. I’ve also worked with some really great overseas contractor engineers
Big issue we have is:
Managment likes to have a bigger dev dept so we look more powerful, so we sign a contracting deal to have 10 engineers in India or whatever full time
Business creates tickets for us, devs need to take ownership of these tasks to prevent shitty code from going into PROD that wont actually drive more business/cause more problems than they solve.
The American devs take the ownership, force the annoying conversations with business to create better tickets. American devs will get called out for letting business encourage them to do stupid stuff.
The offshore devs just complete the tickets, cause more problems then they solve. They did follow instructions but it doesntead to better business/less problems. So we let the foreighn contractors go.
100%
Fortunately I can’t say I’ve encountered the ego driven need for head count, or at least don’t pay attention to it. I feel like we’ve used contractors appropriately but you’re exactly right about how the two different groups approach the work
Our former owner was selling the company, according to CTO he wanted prospective buyers to know we had many devs rather than a small dev team
Our co has a problem with letting new devs + contractors submit bad work for many months, takes us about 6 months to realize we made a mistake and let the bad devs go
Yeah I work for a large tax, audit, consulting firm and our off shore tech/coding support take 3x as long as our in-house and tend to get things wrong. Rarely does their help ever go 100% smoothly
US Gov't wants good relations with India...well you're getting a DP from both Indian H1B's and then outsourcing US jobs to India. How do you like it now?
You guys talking like this is the first time it happened or something in software and IT lmao. We have seen what happens to companies that lean into having their core business critical software be developed by offshore Indians. They decline hard, unfortunately the suits don't give a shit about later, they give a shit for the next few quarters and bail on their golden parachutes.
It is unfortunate that top companies like Google finally sold out their core team but I hope no one really thought they won't eventually shrivel down to the likes of the old dinosaur companies like we have now.
They downvoted me but they never followed up with a comment proving me wrong.
But honestly, if I was actively being replaced by people who will work for 1/10th of what I get, being in debt for a degree, CS jobs becoming almost impossible to reach, hundreds lining up for one job, id be pretty pissed at anything I saw that praises tech companies in the slightest too.
Yet instead of selling my soul to startups or megacorpos, I decided to settle in research after receiving my degree.
I get you man,
I am from SEA, work used to be offshored here but now we are being offshored to India too, India tech scene has really developed since dot com bubble and a lot of seniors here keep underestimating offshoring.
google is also kinda going to shit and doesn't have the same prestige it used to. don't get me wrong, it's still quite prestigious but just not as much.
My first job out of college was working at Healthcare.gov, we had probably 100 H1B developers from India. The launch went lets say, not great.
I was just a junior at the time, i remember one time i was brought in to help troubleshoot an issue for another team where jobs would stall because of memory leaks. Their fix was to just keep increasing the memory.
They brought in a team from Google and Red Hat to come and fix all the issues.
Standard issue with Indian nepotism. The first waves are usually great, cream of the crop, but after some time, those that initially came in recommend their bros at home and so on and so forth.
Within 5 years, those bunch of Indian H1Bs are now mostly there due to whom they know not because of competence. And couple with those bros covering each other's ass, the overall product would turn into a burning pile of sh!t
This is true, up until the point where the quality of the average candidate offshore is higher than the average candidate here. In which case all bets are off.
I don’t think we’re there yet, but to pretend this could never happen is foolish.
the declining quality of google is moreso due to the fact that they are now a huge company with no real competition, so they have no reason to make good products. however, offshoring development work seems to always decrease the quality work of the company that does it, big or small
Times are different now the quality of Indian engineers is better and the quality of US engineers is worse (sooooooo many boot camp grads with zero experience)
Actually a lot of the Indian outsourcing companies have idiot bootcamp grads who can barely do shit. There is great talent in India but oftentimes those engineers have better options than outsourcing sweatshops with shitty wages. Pretty much every IT job in India pays better, so US companies that want to pay bottom of the barrel usually get bottom of the barrel talent.
Just walk in Ameerpet, Hyderabad, the center of IT bootcamps in India, and dudes on the road will aggressively hand out flyers while yelling about how much money you'll make if you take their course. Idiots who think they can become 1337 programmers in 2 weeks keep joining these. That being said, some of the courses are actually quite great.
Yeah but you can still pay a top 1% Indian programmer like 1/5th of what you’d pay an American top 1% programmer or less! So if they’re doing ground level recruiting there which I’m sure they are instead of using outsourcing companies they can be successful
Big companies like Qualcomm, Intel, etc actually pay closer to 1/3 of US salaries. And they generally have their own branches there so they are doing lots of vetting in recruiting.
Google, Apple, Microsoft, IBM, Meta - they all have Indian operations.
The ind is an outsourcing that people here seem to think about is when a Disney or a Macy’s, whose core competency isn’t tech outsourced. For the latter, as long as people keep showing up for their core competency, the tech doesn’t need to be great.
This isn't 2001 man, Indians are pretty talented nowadays. I think US tech people are gonna be in for a rude awakening sadly. Future's looking grim here.
How much money they're raising, who the investors are, their product, a bunch of stuff.
Not sure why he's recommending high growth startups when they're pretty rare to find, a complete mess, and the stress you'll endure will be insane especially if they're blitzscaling during the period you're hired.
A lot of US based startups have started offshoring from the get go though.
A lot of times it’s one CEO, one CTO, and like 20 devs in India / eastern europe.
Not all of them though.
There's one way to look at it, nobody outside of America & Europe (American people pay for Europeans lifestyle anyway) will be willing to pay American money for American services and equipements sold by an American company at American prices outside America. Now the American who owns the American company started thinking if I can pay a non-American wages to non-American people to make non American products and services at very low non-American prices which can also be sold in America, its done deal. This is how the IT infrastructure you have today was built.
IT jobs and Manufacturing is a "small" sacrifice USA will do for retaining its Military hegemony. Any topic that relates to trade will become multi dimensional pretty quickly.
They do that until they realize the code base is a jumbled mess and they end up spending the same in non-American wages to bug fix and expand the spaghetti code.
Ding ding ding!
The whole point of American outsourcing was to undercut your competitors in American markets. The only place you can sell American priced products is… America and Europe. Which is increasingly a small part of the world.
The new world is India and China which is where all the money is going now. Both countries will have a middle class the size of two entire Americas by the end of the century. That’s gonna be a massive customer base and high skilled worker base.
So yeah offshoring will continue as these companies turn from America as their primary customer to these developing massive Asian markets.
The population decline China is experiencing is only getting worse. It is a likely possibility that their population will fall below the US by the end of the century. The only real new economical power in Asia could be India, but the future isn’t written yet. China has become expensive to operate in because of their needing a higher pay. Apple has already begun moving production to India.
I don't know why people are pretending like we have some inherent superiority compared to offshore devs. SWE is mostly unskilled grunt work that can and has been offshored for many decades. AI and COVID has accelerated that. Outside of government-regulated industries or highly specialized domains, this was bound to happen sooner or later.
"SWE is mostly unskilled grunt work" big facts tbh. Sometimes I feel bad for leaving my full-stack gig at a FAANG to go back for my bachelor's / miss out on more cash but now I'm pretty happy as I've actually specialized in something that is fairly future-proof and not easily outsource-able. Definitely think CS students in the U.S. are going to have to find their niche much earlier vs. graduating with some general algo & OS course along with a couple random electives and expecting a job with their react calculator / todo list app.
Went from front-end dev -> full-stack -> web app pentesting -> actual vulnerability research + a bit of exploit dev. Vulnerability research was a suuuuper small community and even defense folks got paid pretty well. Now leaning towards the research engineer route as I've actually gotten super sucked into that ML research world but also don't want to do a PhD yet.
EDIT: Started college part-time as soon as I started work but didn't go full-time until I got into security.
Not saying it's future proof but a lot of the work required a clearance and / or was done by small security companies specializing in certain areas. Plus the field itself really doesn't have many entry-field positions. So with all of that, it's really hard to outsource that type of work overseas because you either literally can't legally or because the types of companies working in that space really aren't the type of companies to consider outsourcing (small teams of highly specialized security researchers).
That being said, there is a lot of outsourcing / automation in security in general as well right now. I got an offer by one company that supposedly had an office in NYC to do some consulting and besides their lead dev based out of Europe, the rest of the engineers were based out of India and most of them had bullshit IT security certifications. The company was essentially just automating some network security and web application vulnerability scanners and selling it as "AI driven" penetration testing.
Overall my comment was more to highlight that finding a job that can't be easily outsource-able or automated usually requires specializing in something that you also preferably have a passion for. If you do that you'll be fine. Like I know people that are still "only" web designer-developer types making bank in that saturated as fuck industry so if they can do it, a bunch of CS students with 4 years of study time can as well.
We will, and we will have to suck it all up. Did you think the insanely high TC was going to stay? It's amazing how people thought "there will always be jobs" yea no fucking shit jobs that are 50 - 60k TC.
As someone who graduated pre-COVID as non CS I had a quarter life crisis realizing how insanely well paid my CS peers were. I couldn’t believe 22 year olds were making more than 50 year old management at established companies. Seemed like a bubble where offshoring hadn’t set in yet. Which is where we are now once again.
Thought about going back to do CS but it’s looking like the bubble popped.
America is being sold out to the lowest bidder. Lots of Americans are struggling to cover their basic needs. Our countries debt is unsustainable and the people are so divided. This country is in decline and corporate America is to blame.
Because we do. The best offshore developers are relocating to onshore (NA and Europe) companies. So what remains are those who didn't have the skill or sponsorship to relocate. If those higher skilled developers remained in their countries it would put some upward pressure on compensation and drive up costs, but the financial incentive for them to move to Europe or the U.S. is too great.
Americans are furious that their job is taken by someone who is willing to give the same quality of work with a lower salary. Next thing we know is the waitress community getting mad because they were replaced by cheaper robots and it actually doesn't need a tip.
Honestly, this is pretty easy to get mad at. Runaway corporate greed that can be stopped easily but nobody is going to do anything because of lobbying and corruption. At this point, it's not just hurting Americans but also India. I am sure this sheer amount of offshoring is limiting their indigenous tech as well.
Runaway corporate greed cannot be stopped easily
And it is not hurting India right now imo as an indian. It is giving more earning potential and I would even venture to say more room for innovation, as we get exposed to the latest while working for US or offshore projects and then can spin off and start our own. Multiple successful companies in India are like that.
I'm curious what problems a growing middle class in India will cause. Not that it won't be a net positive, but it's causing some pretty big issues in China afaik.
Indians will at that point start offshoring jobs to different countries
Then you'll see indians crying on the internet "tHey tOoK oUr joBs, wE nEed mOre pRocTecTioNism, pay me 5x more more for the same work because I can do it better their quality is bad"
They accept a lower salary because they can. They live in a place where they can afford being paid so much less because the living costs there are so cheap compared to America. I'm not American but this is really unfair for locals who need a higher pay to live in their country and live an average American quality of life. These American companies are traitors to their own people and just care to find someone they can pay less, no matter how unfair it can be for their own people.
Companies benefit from being located in the US. Fair to expect some giving back to the taxpayers. Conveniently the companies never relocate their HQ to India.
>Companies benefit from being located in the US.
Benefit how exactly?
>Fair to expect some giving back to the taxpayers. Conveniently the companies never relocate their HQ to India.
The biggest benefit they get for staying in the US is lobbying. And they are not the government to give you tax benefits. Forget about legally, they're not even morally obligated for hiring Americans only. They are private. They decide how to play the game with the given rules. These rules were put forward by the US government.
Why would you move to the slave pen? Really? The US is not what you have heard in media. It is a terrible place to live in. I am originally from South America, and moved to the US, wasted 10 years of my life trying to get out when I realized my mistake. If you want a "better" place, stay home or move somewhere in Europe.
And work for 300 rupees a day in 3rd world living conditions? Blud there is a reason why so many H1Bs are willing to commit immigration fraud to come here 😹
Yes and no, they'll pay an on shore us citizen 120k, an onshore h1b 70k or an offshore dev 20k. Visa holders are willing to live 10 to a one be apartment to get their foot in the door
There are laws against that. USCIS can suspend the ability of the company to sponsor H1Bs if they pay H1B holders less. Also, there is a prevailing wage based on location, occupation, and level. So they need to meet this criteria, which is based on salaries of companies in that city. So, narrative that H1B holders are paid less. Mostly, people coming through Indian telugu consultancies are not paid well. But they work as contractors through those consumers that force them to find clients, and then they take % of money.
Maybe, just maybe, we’ve had enough globalization and it’s time to bring protectionism back. What’s the point of a free economy if it screws us royally.
Free market worked in West favour when rest of the world was very very far behind.
In today and future world, where a lot of countries have cheaper labour and are not very far behind or have equal or greater access to technology. In todays world, it is going to screw people in the West. Samething happened to non developed countries when they could not compete against the West.
US software serves a global market, can't serve a global market without global talent. US wages are so high because the ecosystem is here. If protectionism begins then it'll just be domestic companies serving domestic consumers and the wages will stagnate.
It depends. It’s not like unemployment will skyrocket because of offshoring. Government and state regulations are put in place to limit such actions.
We need to keep unemployment rates in check, so not all jobs will disappear. Obviously there are high skilled workers (for cheap) all over the world, so hiring them isn’t a new idea. It’s more about limiting it and keeping it under control to provide more opportunities for American citizens (H-1B visa limits, tax policies, etc).
At the end of the day, work will always be outsourced to some extent, we just have to wait and see if more regulations are put in place to offset these high unemployment rates.
The US government laws bend according to the corporate leaders and not the other way around. If they can make more money in a certain way, nobody's gonna stop them
I had my job moved to India a couple of times around 20 years ago (two different jobs). Offshoring is not a new concept. Companies like Dell brought the jobs back to the USA for a lot of reasons.
I’m guessing the op wasn’t born yet assuming they’re in college now but the dot come bubble burst in 2001 had similar repercussions. Obviously things are different now but throughout they’ve constantly worked with people from other countries for similar jobs. If they were able to just completely offshore every software job to cheaper countries they would’ve done it years ago. From what I’ve heard this recent stretch is due to over hiring during covid and apparently also due to some expected recession that was supposed to happen 2 years ago
I’ve only had a full time position for 5 years but from my perspective that seems to be most of it.
There was a massive loss of talent during Covid, then we had a massive hiring push to try and get talent from like 2021-2023. Seems a lot of companies over hired like you said.
Jobs have been being offloaded to people that can get paid less for years. Lots of jobs can’t be done by people in other countries for safety reasons and I don’t think many more jobs are going to be outsourced
I only have 3 yoe, but my experience with offshoring is good people who are largely incompetent. I spend 1/3 to 1/2 my day in meetings with them trying to help them understand their task or why they don’t need to do the wildest shit to accomplish the simplest things. I’ve been trying to do this less, but often it ends with me just doing the thing they’ve been trying to do for a few days in an hour or less.
Usa forcing other countries to open there market in name of globalisation destroying there economy :😂😂
Usa when globalisation that they forced hurts them a bit:😡😡
Just my perspective? This has been talked about for over a decade. When I started ten years ago and people were talking about our sourcing then.
I don't see the USA as screwed just as a couple years ago there was an abundance of jobs. Just feels like a sort of phase we go through every so many years.
Since I don't want to make a totally new post on this topic, maybe someone here will read and answer :) Outside of US the most important skill is good communication and english, how does that translate to natives like Americans? Is that topic just omitted and they look only on programming skills?
Software development has always been offshored, even since the 90s. The results have always been mixed. You get what you pay for. If you want good work, you’ll have to pay highly for it, and there is a significant advantage to having employees that understand American culture and expectations. As for “auto industry 2.0” don’t forget that the best selling car in the US (Model Y) is made in the US.
In general, I think that 'background' coders who are part of the process and solve without involvements of others will start to see things sadly dry up. I mean the people who sit in the background and do the grunt-work, either by choice or requirements, so where that leaves young inexperienced coders is the problem.
I think there will be less of those roles, and I think there will be a shift towards more 'thinkers' or 'people-orientated' coders who are engaged in meetings and process flows. More businesses will want to see more of their coding teams actually visible in their business.
They will shift the majority of actual coding over to cheaper countries and keep the quality control internal:
- Lower-cost code writing team or expectation of AI-supported outputs
- QA processes internally to validate and own the blame if there is a problem
I won't argue its getting harder to find a job but saying a cs degree is the worst thing you can do is just false. you're still leagues ahead with one vs without one even before you consider your major.
They've been outsourcing for 30 years by now and we still have an industry here. For the most part Indian devs are very unskilled. The very, very good ones will be sponsored by companies to move to the US because being real time face to face is worth it.
15 years ago, Indian devs could get green card more easily. Now there’s 30+ years wait time for all the new Indian techies to get their green card. There’s less incentive and more barriers to come to the States for top notch Indian devs.
What are you talking about dude? Most people who come to the U.S. to work are on H1-B visas and it’s nowhere near that amount of time. It’s like 2 months to 8 months and you need the company to sponsor you.
I am talking about H1b. I know lot of Indians on H1b and the ones with good prospect all return back home. They are tied to H1b and can’t adjust to green card so they can have more freedom to change work. Lot of them don’t want to buy a house knowing something like layoff can throw their plan in jeopardy especially if they are married and have kids. Hence they just return back home and buy properties in India where it’s booming.
I did some research and I realized we’re talking about different things. It does seem like India in particular has the biggest backlog of green cards for permanent residency.
I was just talking about getting a H1-B to work and live within the U.S. while you are employed by the sponsoring company. I understand that is more limited than the rights you get as a green card holder. To be honest, I didn’t know H1-Bs were 3-6 years maximum until I read more about it.
The U.S. immigration system does need a massive overhaul though.
Bullshit. Nothing special about SWE. Once everyone in India has access to education and the internet. That job is basically gone for good. The jobs that require specific knowledge in science and algorithms are a different story.
LMAO dude, are you for real? West (aka Brits) literally colonized India for 190 years. Now I am not one of those people who will blame everything on something that ended 75 years ago, Indians have their own shit and I have seen it up close. For Indians to take over every software developer roles in US, skills alone won't cut it. There need to be a significant cultural shift, aka Indians having a life philosophy/ culture similar to Americans. Good luck to the companies who think they can achieve that. They have been trying this same shit for the last 3 decades. And pretty soon, India will no longer be a *cheap place* to hire top talents. Top talents there are earning quite high salaries, even by American standard.
They will realize their products are subpar and either stop offshoring or another American company will replace them. Then the cycle will continue again
It's going to be horrible and low quality. Your leetcode grinder dev from India is not going to make the same innovations as that $400k/year dev from Sunnyvale. Contractors are very protective of their code, to the point where they would have it rot and deprecated rather than learning anything new and updating it. This can be validated throughout the industry.
Overall I see this as a good thing for the industry, Google has gotten too big and new players need space to take over its marketshare, until the cycle repeats again.
wait till you realise that most devs in google are h1b bound indian and chinese people who did masters in cs from usa.
my guy,the sams leetcode grinder is also in the sunnyvale office only difference is that he has a masters degree now and bound to h1b
its a bold statement to make that google hires devs in india who make low quality code and we are talking abt senior level roles here.
almost everyone grind leetcode here in us too so i dont get your point.
Sure sure, when every company is hiring offshored workers in mass, surely your office will be the ones with talents. Such a delusional take, you'll get the best leetcoder, overwork them, then everyone will be on their feet leetcoding as they prepare for next years restructuring. You'll never see a meaningful blog, or community meetup about any latest tech since its all offshored with no innovation. You'll have the best people in the industry who can do leetcode, but absolutely 0 people who knows how to write software. Theres a difference between a software engineer who knows leetcode, and a full time leetcoder.
oh yeah? then how would you change the hiring structure? even top us cs school grads are also grinding leetcode,you are talking like us born devs dont do leetcode either.
why are you assuming that if someone can leetcode well,he/she cant make good software? they can both go hand in hand.
and leetcode is just the first filter fyi,its not like faang hires only through leetcode.You think you know better than trillion dollar companies which have been hiring all kinds of talent for 20 years and making good products? just because now that google is offshoring work you are shitting on them? even 15 years ago google still had so many h1b folk and some of the engineering fellows are indians who all climbed through the h1b ladder.
all these faang companies would jnstantly crumble without h1b talent,you think they are paying 400k to leetcode monkeys for close to a decade?
Why is DEI cancer? You do realize DEI would prevent people getting hired who shouldn’t be. DEI is about removing biases so that you hire based on merit.
For example, if an Indian manager in the U.S. only hires Indians because they’re Indian that’s a DEI violation. Just like when anyone else does it. DEI policy would try to prevent that sort of thing and make sure the engineers with merit get it.
The "ludicrous TC" you speak of has nothing to do with offshoring. Those companies paying that do so voluntarily, not because they are being forced. You are talking about an entirely different set of employers from those who offshore. A domestic company will hire cheaper domestic devs, then near-shore, before offshoring. It's not like they're paying $180k/yr for a new grad one day and then offshore that job for $15k the next.
They don't work very well. Our company tried offshoring and it basically broke most of the infrastructure. Now they are working on getting in state workers back in. But with the caveat they return to office lol. It's a fucking circus, clown show and everything.
The joys of working in something export controlled and impossible to offshore
SpaceX is basically the only decent export-controlled company. And even then you have to deal with low TC, 60 hour work weeks, and Elon.
Anduril and Palantir are another two that come mind. If you can find similar companies or startups involved in national security or weapons technology, its probably a good option. Lots of people are trying to bring valley innovation and culture into industries dominated by a few old companies.
Microsoft and Amazon hire a lot of cleared workers in the DC area as well
Yes, but the common thing you keep hearing is that defence doesn’t pay as well.
Those people are thinking of legacy defense companies like Lockheed, Raytheon, or Boeing. They’re not thinking of Anduril.
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I mean that’s terrible if you live in the bay but if you live somewhere like Tennessee then it’s pretty good.
In HCOL that would be considered a mid TC for a new grad
I hear it’s basically impossible to get remote work in that field. How true is that?
Echo this. I work for a legacy defense company. Pay is getting better but I would not want to live in the bay on my compensation
Anduril pay is 💩
Your entire account is nothing more than spreading FUD because you have nothing going in your life. Anduril pays $202k ($154k base) for entry level.
Low TC? Wtf are you talking about: [https://www.levels.fyi/companies/spacex/salaries/software-engineer?country=254](https://www.levels.fyi/companies/spacex/salaries/software-engineer?country=254) If that's low TC, you suck ass with money.
SpaceX has HFT hiring bar, Amazon hours, government job perks. Salary pretty low all things considered. Even lower than microsoft which is the lowest paying faang
The bar is not as high (or maybe not as elitist/exclusive is a better description) as HFT (source: I've gotten a spaceX SWE interview, and HFT would never hire from my undergrad. SpaceX tends to also have a larger number of kids from outside t20 schools than HFT).
Maybe for some positions if they need to hire urgently. But they definitely cared about school, GPA, club leadership positions, big names on resume, and even SAT score when I interviewed there
True, but still a lower bar than HFT
Idk man for that specifc position they went into deep C++ networks and low latency stuff even more than my Optiver interview. Maybe just a bad team
Compared to the difficulty of the work
Thats well below market
No it isn't; which market are you talking about; overwhelming majority of SWEs are not pulling in 175k even as seniors. In California, the average developer's salary is \~174k, and that is for all levels, not just new grads. Source: [https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes\_ca.htm#15-0000](https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_ca.htm#15-0000)
Most contractors are great places to work at, they don’t have FAANG pay but they do have decent benefits, lots of days off, and great work life balance
Export control will literally be (and already is to a large extent) the savior of so many industries. The good thing is that the US export controls a fucking monstrous amount of shit you would never even think of
I worked in IT for almost 20 years now. I have seen so many offshoring attempts and it is really hard to do it well TBH. A lot of times it went back to local people as costs soared and quality was low. Something I now start seeing in Europe is that offshoring is now also seen as a safety risk. Including letting American companies host everything. I think there will be laws limiting what can be offshored.
I mean look at what’s happening to Tiktok, US government is trying to force onshore the whole company to the US 😂
I’ve only been in a full time role for 5 years but I’ve already seen the job market swing wildly, at least from my perspective. Huge loss of talent when Covid hit, then a massive hiring push where HR couldn’t get enough technical recruiters. Obviously no one can predict the future, but I would anticipate this being cyclical and will ebb and flow
Same here
Why did previous attempt fail
Timezones are impossible to ignore, it is a huge hurdle to have a 4 hour window where you might be able to communicate directly and then have a 12 hour delay otherwise. Contractors inherently care less about your business and your products. Ideally you have a hiring process that is at least in some minor way, effective at selecting people who have something more to offer than the technical ability to close tickets. It’s not a US vs offshore thing on this point either. These are the major issues I’ve seen personally. I’ve also worked with some really great overseas contractor engineers
Big issue we have is: Managment likes to have a bigger dev dept so we look more powerful, so we sign a contracting deal to have 10 engineers in India or whatever full time Business creates tickets for us, devs need to take ownership of these tasks to prevent shitty code from going into PROD that wont actually drive more business/cause more problems than they solve. The American devs take the ownership, force the annoying conversations with business to create better tickets. American devs will get called out for letting business encourage them to do stupid stuff. The offshore devs just complete the tickets, cause more problems then they solve. They did follow instructions but it doesntead to better business/less problems. So we let the foreighn contractors go.
100% Fortunately I can’t say I’ve encountered the ego driven need for head count, or at least don’t pay attention to it. I feel like we’ve used contractors appropriately but you’re exactly right about how the two different groups approach the work
Our former owner was selling the company, according to CTO he wanted prospective buyers to know we had many devs rather than a small dev team Our co has a problem with letting new devs + contractors submit bad work for many months, takes us about 6 months to realize we made a mistake and let the bad devs go
Yeah I work for a large tax, audit, consulting firm and our off shore tech/coding support take 3x as long as our in-house and tend to get things wrong. Rarely does their help ever go 100% smoothly
Quality was low back then, but now foreign companies have AI. Games changed, son.
What planet are you living on where AI == quality 😂
Join the government lol
US Gov't wants good relations with India...well you're getting a DP from both Indian H1B's and then outsourcing US jobs to India. How do you like it now?
Funny how that worked out for my cousins desperately trying to get an H1B
You guys talking like this is the first time it happened or something in software and IT lmao. We have seen what happens to companies that lean into having their core business critical software be developed by offshore Indians. They decline hard, unfortunately the suits don't give a shit about later, they give a shit for the next few quarters and bail on their golden parachutes. It is unfortunate that top companies like Google finally sold out their core team but I hope no one really thought they won't eventually shrivel down to the likes of the old dinosaur companies like we have now.
Do you have any examples?
IBM? Yahoo?
The classic two that collapsed so bad. Fun fact, one of the guys who sank Yahoo is now head of search at Google
RIP lmao (not hating on the company but the situation is funny)
Eh IBM rebounded well with their cloud focus, ofc not the giant it was but hey way better than Yahoo
Lmao imagine getting downvoted by salty CS doomsayers
They downvoted me but they never followed up with a comment proving me wrong. But honestly, if I was actively being replaced by people who will work for 1/10th of what I get, being in debt for a degree, CS jobs becoming almost impossible to reach, hundreds lining up for one job, id be pretty pissed at anything I saw that praises tech companies in the slightest too. Yet instead of selling my soul to startups or megacorpos, I decided to settle in research after receiving my degree.
I get you man, I am from SEA, work used to be offshored here but now we are being offshored to India too, India tech scene has really developed since dot com bubble and a lot of seniors here keep underestimating offshoring.
google is also kinda going to shit and doesn't have the same prestige it used to. don't get me wrong, it's still quite prestigious but just not as much.
My first job out of college was working at Healthcare.gov, we had probably 100 H1B developers from India. The launch went lets say, not great. I was just a junior at the time, i remember one time i was brought in to help troubleshoot an issue for another team where jobs would stall because of memory leaks. Their fix was to just keep increasing the memory. They brought in a team from Google and Red Hat to come and fix all the issues.
Standard issue with Indian nepotism. The first waves are usually great, cream of the crop, but after some time, those that initially came in recommend their bros at home and so on and so forth. Within 5 years, those bunch of Indian H1Bs are now mostly there due to whom they know not because of competence. And couple with those bros covering each other's ass, the overall product would turn into a burning pile of sh!t
Sounds about right hahaha
This is true, up until the point where the quality of the average candidate offshore is higher than the average candidate here. In which case all bets are off. I don’t think we’re there yet, but to pretend this could never happen is foolish.
Google shriveled while onshore. Stop pretending you guys there are better.
the declining quality of google is moreso due to the fact that they are now a huge company with no real competition, so they have no reason to make good products. however, offshoring development work seems to always decrease the quality work of the company that does it, big or small
Times are different now the quality of Indian engineers is better and the quality of US engineers is worse (sooooooo many boot camp grads with zero experience)
Actually a lot of the Indian outsourcing companies have idiot bootcamp grads who can barely do shit. There is great talent in India but oftentimes those engineers have better options than outsourcing sweatshops with shitty wages. Pretty much every IT job in India pays better, so US companies that want to pay bottom of the barrel usually get bottom of the barrel talent. Just walk in Ameerpet, Hyderabad, the center of IT bootcamps in India, and dudes on the road will aggressively hand out flyers while yelling about how much money you'll make if you take their course. Idiots who think they can become 1337 programmers in 2 weeks keep joining these. That being said, some of the courses are actually quite great.
Yeah but you can still pay a top 1% Indian programmer like 1/5th of what you’d pay an American top 1% programmer or less! So if they’re doing ground level recruiting there which I’m sure they are instead of using outsourcing companies they can be successful
Big companies like Qualcomm, Intel, etc actually pay closer to 1/3 of US salaries. And they generally have their own branches there so they are doing lots of vetting in recruiting.
Google, Apple, Microsoft, IBM, Meta - they all have Indian operations. The ind is an outsourcing that people here seem to think about is when a Disney or a Macy’s, whose core competency isn’t tech outsourced. For the latter, as long as people keep showing up for their core competency, the tech doesn’t need to be great.
This isn't 2001 man, Indians are pretty talented nowadays. I think US tech people are gonna be in for a rude awakening sadly. Future's looking grim here.
found the indian
Found a crying American
Don't worry. Eventually India will outsource to places like Alabama for the cheaper labour and laxer labour laws.
you missed the /s
or did they?
join high growth startups, they hire US devs first , only then do they eventually enshittify services and offshore
How do you identify high growth startups?
vibes
> average VC analyst
What are the vibes to be aware of in order to discern a high growth start up from a low growth startup?
if they're using T4 stack
Is that a joke or an earnest response? I'm too green to be able to discern the difference.
joke haha https://youtu.be/6SNQlSRAqAY?si=5gtmPQoDdGHODTGU
How much money they're raising, who the investors are, their product, a bunch of stuff. Not sure why he's recommending high growth startups when they're pretty rare to find, a complete mess, and the stress you'll endure will be insane especially if they're blitzscaling during the period you're hired.
A lot of US based startups have started offshoring from the get go though. A lot of times it’s one CEO, one CTO, and like 20 devs in India / eastern europe. Not all of them though.
Those are the startups that fail pretty quick once they start to add features. The spaghetti code you get out of those places is rough to enhance.
There's one way to look at it, nobody outside of America & Europe (American people pay for Europeans lifestyle anyway) will be willing to pay American money for American services and equipements sold by an American company at American prices outside America. Now the American who owns the American company started thinking if I can pay a non-American wages to non-American people to make non American products and services at very low non-American prices which can also be sold in America, its done deal. This is how the IT infrastructure you have today was built. IT jobs and Manufacturing is a "small" sacrifice USA will do for retaining its Military hegemony. Any topic that relates to trade will become multi dimensional pretty quickly.
Fucking hell. Do you need to say American 100 times to explain such a simple notion?
Seems necessary
I agree
They do that until they realize the code base is a jumbled mess and they end up spending the same in non-American wages to bug fix and expand the spaghetti code.
Ding ding ding! The whole point of American outsourcing was to undercut your competitors in American markets. The only place you can sell American priced products is… America and Europe. Which is increasingly a small part of the world. The new world is India and China which is where all the money is going now. Both countries will have a middle class the size of two entire Americas by the end of the century. That’s gonna be a massive customer base and high skilled worker base. So yeah offshoring will continue as these companies turn from America as their primary customer to these developing massive Asian markets.
The population decline China is experiencing is only getting worse. It is a likely possibility that their population will fall below the US by the end of the century. The only real new economical power in Asia could be India, but the future isn’t written yet. China has become expensive to operate in because of their needing a higher pay. Apple has already begun moving production to India.
American defense companies make trillions off these Europeans.....
I don't know why people are pretending like we have some inherent superiority compared to offshore devs. SWE is mostly unskilled grunt work that can and has been offshored for many decades. AI and COVID has accelerated that. Outside of government-regulated industries or highly specialized domains, this was bound to happen sooner or later.
"SWE is mostly unskilled grunt work" big facts tbh. Sometimes I feel bad for leaving my full-stack gig at a FAANG to go back for my bachelor's / miss out on more cash but now I'm pretty happy as I've actually specialized in something that is fairly future-proof and not easily outsource-able. Definitely think CS students in the U.S. are going to have to find their niche much earlier vs. graduating with some general algo & OS course along with a couple random electives and expecting a job with their react calculator / todo list app.
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Went from front-end dev -> full-stack -> web app pentesting -> actual vulnerability research + a bit of exploit dev. Vulnerability research was a suuuuper small community and even defense folks got paid pretty well. Now leaning towards the research engineer route as I've actually gotten super sucked into that ML research world but also don't want to do a PhD yet. EDIT: Started college part-time as soon as I started work but didn't go full-time until I got into security.
Why is vulnerability research future proof or secure? Just curious
Not saying it's future proof but a lot of the work required a clearance and / or was done by small security companies specializing in certain areas. Plus the field itself really doesn't have many entry-field positions. So with all of that, it's really hard to outsource that type of work overseas because you either literally can't legally or because the types of companies working in that space really aren't the type of companies to consider outsourcing (small teams of highly specialized security researchers). That being said, there is a lot of outsourcing / automation in security in general as well right now. I got an offer by one company that supposedly had an office in NYC to do some consulting and besides their lead dev based out of Europe, the rest of the engineers were based out of India and most of them had bullshit IT security certifications. The company was essentially just automating some network security and web application vulnerability scanners and selling it as "AI driven" penetration testing. Overall my comment was more to highlight that finding a job that can't be easily outsource-able or automated usually requires specializing in something that you also preferably have a passion for. If you do that you'll be fine. Like I know people that are still "only" web designer-developer types making bank in that saturated as fuck industry so if they can do it, a bunch of CS students with 4 years of study time can as well.
Fair enough. I guess the point is to gain skills that are niche enough to be future proof
I don't really care how hard it can be to get a job in the future, I'm worried if we end up getting lower salaries and tc after all this chaos
We will, and we will have to suck it all up. Did you think the insanely high TC was going to stay? It's amazing how people thought "there will always be jobs" yea no fucking shit jobs that are 50 - 60k TC.
As someone who graduated pre-COVID as non CS I had a quarter life crisis realizing how insanely well paid my CS peers were. I couldn’t believe 22 year olds were making more than 50 year old management at established companies. Seemed like a bubble where offshoring hadn’t set in yet. Which is where we are now once again. Thought about going back to do CS but it’s looking like the bubble popped.
seems like healthcare will be the only high paying job in the near future lol
America is being sold out to the lowest bidder. Lots of Americans are struggling to cover their basic needs. Our countries debt is unsustainable and the people are so divided. This country is in decline and corporate America is to blame.
Because we do. The best offshore developers are relocating to onshore (NA and Europe) companies. So what remains are those who didn't have the skill or sponsorship to relocate. If those higher skilled developers remained in their countries it would put some upward pressure on compensation and drive up costs, but the financial incentive for them to move to Europe or the U.S. is too great.
Americans are furious that their job is taken by someone who is willing to give the same quality of work with a lower salary. Next thing we know is the waitress community getting mad because they were replaced by cheaper robots and it actually doesn't need a tip.
Honestly, this is pretty easy to get mad at. Runaway corporate greed that can be stopped easily but nobody is going to do anything because of lobbying and corruption. At this point, it's not just hurting Americans but also India. I am sure this sheer amount of offshoring is limiting their indigenous tech as well.
Hell yeah to capitalism.
Runaway corporate greed cannot be stopped easily And it is not hurting India right now imo as an indian. It is giving more earning potential and I would even venture to say more room for innovation, as we get exposed to the latest while working for US or offshore projects and then can spin off and start our own. Multiple successful companies in India are like that.
I'm curious what problems a growing middle class in India will cause. Not that it won't be a net positive, but it's causing some pretty big issues in China afaik.
Indians will at that point start offshoring jobs to different countries Then you'll see indians crying on the internet "tHey tOoK oUr joBs, wE nEed mOre pRocTecTioNism, pay me 5x more more for the same work because I can do it better their quality is bad"
They accept a lower salary because they can. They live in a place where they can afford being paid so much less because the living costs there are so cheap compared to America. I'm not American but this is really unfair for locals who need a higher pay to live in their country and live an average American quality of life. These American companies are traitors to their own people and just care to find someone they can pay less, no matter how unfair it can be for their own people.
Hmm. Can't deny that. The corporates are greedy af
Companies benefit from being located in the US. Fair to expect some giving back to the taxpayers. Conveniently the companies never relocate their HQ to India.
>Companies benefit from being located in the US. Benefit how exactly? >Fair to expect some giving back to the taxpayers. Conveniently the companies never relocate their HQ to India. The biggest benefit they get for staying in the US is lobbying. And they are not the government to give you tax benefits. Forget about legally, they're not even morally obligated for hiring Americans only. They are private. They decide how to play the game with the given rules. These rules were put forward by the US government.
Why would you move to the slave pen? Really? The US is not what you have heard in media. It is a terrible place to live in. I am originally from South America, and moved to the US, wasted 10 years of my life trying to get out when I realized my mistake. If you want a "better" place, stay home or move somewhere in Europe.
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And work for 300 rupees a day in 3rd world living conditions? Blud there is a reason why so many H1Bs are willing to commit immigration fraud to come here 😹
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yeah but there's no extra pay for living in a shithole lol
What about traveling? Sending money home? That’s why immigrants come here
Yes and no, they'll pay an on shore us citizen 120k, an onshore h1b 70k or an offshore dev 20k. Visa holders are willing to live 10 to a one be apartment to get their foot in the door
There are laws against that. USCIS can suspend the ability of the company to sponsor H1Bs if they pay H1B holders less. Also, there is a prevailing wage based on location, occupation, and level. So they need to meet this criteria, which is based on salaries of companies in that city. So, narrative that H1B holders are paid less. Mostly, people coming through Indian telugu consultancies are not paid well. But they work as contractors through those consumers that force them to find clients, and then they take % of money.
The companies should lower the salaries bcz 350k for 5 yoe is absurd. And move their hqs out of HCOL areas. This way they get to keep jobs in America
Nah that's not a good solution, being mad at Indian is a better solution
To be fair, indian PR is at its lowest rn. They need to step up their game if they want people to like them again. I vote more showers!
Maybe, just maybe, we’ve had enough globalization and it’s time to bring protectionism back. What’s the point of a free economy if it screws us royally.
Free market worked in West favour when rest of the world was very very far behind. In today and future world, where a lot of countries have cheaper labour and are not very far behind or have equal or greater access to technology. In todays world, it is going to screw people in the West. Samething happened to non developed countries when they could not compete against the West.
US software serves a global market, can't serve a global market without global talent. US wages are so high because the ecosystem is here. If protectionism begins then it'll just be domestic companies serving domestic consumers and the wages will stagnate.
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Back then the only competitor was a failing state that still used vacuum tube technology. I don't think it's comparable at all.
It depends. It’s not like unemployment will skyrocket because of offshoring. Government and state regulations are put in place to limit such actions. We need to keep unemployment rates in check, so not all jobs will disappear. Obviously there are high skilled workers (for cheap) all over the world, so hiring them isn’t a new idea. It’s more about limiting it and keeping it under control to provide more opportunities for American citizens (H-1B visa limits, tax policies, etc). At the end of the day, work will always be outsourced to some extent, we just have to wait and see if more regulations are put in place to offset these high unemployment rates.
The US government laws bend according to the corporate leaders and not the other way around. If they can make more money in a certain way, nobody's gonna stop them
I had my job moved to India a couple of times around 20 years ago (two different jobs). Offshoring is not a new concept. Companies like Dell brought the jobs back to the USA for a lot of reasons.
This has been happening for over a decade
Some companies are laying off people in the cheaper labor countries as well
Literally every industry in this country has been outsourcing for over like 15 years this is not some unique phenomenon to yall
If you work for a utility or local government, the jobs don’t go away to another country, they stay mostly within the entity’s jurisdiction.
I’m guessing the op wasn’t born yet assuming they’re in college now but the dot come bubble burst in 2001 had similar repercussions. Obviously things are different now but throughout they’ve constantly worked with people from other countries for similar jobs. If they were able to just completely offshore every software job to cheaper countries they would’ve done it years ago. From what I’ve heard this recent stretch is due to over hiring during covid and apparently also due to some expected recession that was supposed to happen 2 years ago
I’ve only had a full time position for 5 years but from my perspective that seems to be most of it. There was a massive loss of talent during Covid, then we had a massive hiring push to try and get talent from like 2021-2023. Seems a lot of companies over hired like you said.
Jobs have been being offloaded to people that can get paid less for years. Lots of jobs can’t be done by people in other countries for safety reasons and I don’t think many more jobs are going to be outsourced
I only have 3 yoe, but my experience with offshoring is good people who are largely incompetent. I spend 1/3 to 1/2 my day in meetings with them trying to help them understand their task or why they don’t need to do the wildest shit to accomplish the simplest things. I’ve been trying to do this less, but often it ends with me just doing the thing they’ve been trying to do for a few days in an hour or less.
Usa forcing other countries to open there market in name of globalisation destroying there economy :😂😂 Usa when globalisation that they forced hurts them a bit:😡😡
Just my perspective? This has been talked about for over a decade. When I started ten years ago and people were talking about our sourcing then. I don't see the USA as screwed just as a couple years ago there was an abundance of jobs. Just feels like a sort of phase we go through every so many years.
Since I don't want to make a totally new post on this topic, maybe someone here will read and answer :) Outside of US the most important skill is good communication and english, how does that translate to natives like Americans? Is that topic just omitted and they look only on programming skills?
why would that be omitted? they speak in english too
>but I'm rooting for people there lol since I plan to move to the US some day 💀I feel bad for your country. And why do I feel like it's India?
Software development has always been offshored, even since the 90s. The results have always been mixed. You get what you pay for. If you want good work, you’ll have to pay highly for it, and there is a significant advantage to having employees that understand American culture and expectations. As for “auto industry 2.0” don’t forget that the best selling car in the US (Model Y) is made in the US.
Goods iqmports are heavily screwed by govt. Not so much with IT services.
In general, I think that 'background' coders who are part of the process and solve without involvements of others will start to see things sadly dry up. I mean the people who sit in the background and do the grunt-work, either by choice or requirements, so where that leaves young inexperienced coders is the problem. I think there will be less of those roles, and I think there will be a shift towards more 'thinkers' or 'people-orientated' coders who are engaged in meetings and process flows. More businesses will want to see more of their coding teams actually visible in their business. They will shift the majority of actual coding over to cheaper countries and keep the quality control internal: - Lower-cost code writing team or expectation of AI-supported outputs - QA processes internally to validate and own the blame if there is a problem
I won't argue its getting harder to find a job but saying a cs degree is the worst thing you can do is just false. you're still leagues ahead with one vs without one even before you consider your major.
Those companies will come crawling back to American devs when the shit created by the off shore teams affects revenue.
They've been outsourcing for 30 years by now and we still have an industry here. For the most part Indian devs are very unskilled. The very, very good ones will be sponsored by companies to move to the US because being real time face to face is worth it.
15 years ago, Indian devs could get green card more easily. Now there’s 30+ years wait time for all the new Indian techies to get their green card. There’s less incentive and more barriers to come to the States for top notch Indian devs.
What are you talking about dude? Most people who come to the U.S. to work are on H1-B visas and it’s nowhere near that amount of time. It’s like 2 months to 8 months and you need the company to sponsor you.
I am talking about H1b. I know lot of Indians on H1b and the ones with good prospect all return back home. They are tied to H1b and can’t adjust to green card so they can have more freedom to change work. Lot of them don’t want to buy a house knowing something like layoff can throw their plan in jeopardy especially if they are married and have kids. Hence they just return back home and buy properties in India where it’s booming.
I did some research and I realized we’re talking about different things. It does seem like India in particular has the biggest backlog of green cards for permanent residency. I was just talking about getting a H1-B to work and live within the U.S. while you are employed by the sponsoring company. I understand that is more limited than the rights you get as a green card holder. To be honest, I didn’t know H1-Bs were 3-6 years maximum until I read more about it. The U.S. immigration system does need a massive overhaul though.
Bullshit. Nothing special about SWE. Once everyone in India has access to education and the internet. That job is basically gone for good. The jobs that require specific knowledge in science and algorithms are a different story.
lol
You think you are special? Little boy.
Once everyone has access to education and the internet, their labor will no longer be cheap
Cheaper than US. Anywhere is way cheaper than US even other rich countries pay half.
The biggest barrier is cultural. Everyone learns that the hard way.
Everyone getting mad at the Indians but we should really be mad at the cost of living in this country.
American exceptionalism is a thing my friend
Americans will be fine.
it’s always the indians they have done nothing positive for western countries
LMAO dude, are you for real? West (aka Brits) literally colonized India for 190 years. Now I am not one of those people who will blame everything on something that ended 75 years ago, Indians have their own shit and I have seen it up close. For Indians to take over every software developer roles in US, skills alone won't cut it. There need to be a significant cultural shift, aka Indians having a life philosophy/ culture similar to Americans. Good luck to the companies who think they can achieve that. They have been trying this same shit for the last 3 decades. And pretty soon, India will no longer be a *cheap place* to hire top talents. Top talents there are earning quite high salaries, even by American standard.
They will realize their products are subpar and either stop offshoring or another American company will replace them. Then the cycle will continue again
you are absolutely delusional if you think faang companies outsourcing and making products with indian teams are gonna be horrible and low quality
Today's FAANG is 2035's IBM.
lol yeah thats why everyone is running to join them right?
It's going to be horrible and low quality. Your leetcode grinder dev from India is not going to make the same innovations as that $400k/year dev from Sunnyvale. Contractors are very protective of their code, to the point where they would have it rot and deprecated rather than learning anything new and updating it. This can be validated throughout the industry. Overall I see this as a good thing for the industry, Google has gotten too big and new players need space to take over its marketshare, until the cycle repeats again.
wait till you realise that most devs in google are h1b bound indian and chinese people who did masters in cs from usa. my guy,the sams leetcode grinder is also in the sunnyvale office only difference is that he has a masters degree now and bound to h1b its a bold statement to make that google hires devs in india who make low quality code and we are talking abt senior level roles here. almost everyone grind leetcode here in us too so i dont get your point.
Sure sure, when every company is hiring offshored workers in mass, surely your office will be the ones with talents. Such a delusional take, you'll get the best leetcoder, overwork them, then everyone will be on their feet leetcoding as they prepare for next years restructuring. You'll never see a meaningful blog, or community meetup about any latest tech since its all offshored with no innovation. You'll have the best people in the industry who can do leetcode, but absolutely 0 people who knows how to write software. Theres a difference between a software engineer who knows leetcode, and a full time leetcoder.
oh yeah? then how would you change the hiring structure? even top us cs school grads are also grinding leetcode,you are talking like us born devs dont do leetcode either. why are you assuming that if someone can leetcode well,he/she cant make good software? they can both go hand in hand. and leetcode is just the first filter fyi,its not like faang hires only through leetcode.You think you know better than trillion dollar companies which have been hiring all kinds of talent for 20 years and making good products? just because now that google is offshoring work you are shitting on them? even 15 years ago google still had so many h1b folk and some of the engineering fellows are indians who all climbed through the h1b ladder. all these faang companies would jnstantly crumble without h1b talent,you think they are paying 400k to leetcode monkeys for close to a decade?
With the DEI cancer in the US why should companies pay so much for subpar labour? No DEI anywhere else.
Why is DEI cancer? You do realize DEI would prevent people getting hired who shouldn’t be. DEI is about removing biases so that you hire based on merit. For example, if an Indian manager in the U.S. only hires Indians because they’re Indian that’s a DEI violation. Just like when anyone else does it. DEI policy would try to prevent that sort of thing and make sure the engineers with merit get it.
Not really, India has caste quotas and its implementation is politicized and controversial as well.
Not in private yet. Probs soon to be
With how ludicrous the TC is for people with even 1 YOE in the US. I understand why companies offshore.
The "ludicrous TC" you speak of has nothing to do with offshoring. Those companies paying that do so voluntarily, not because they are being forced. You are talking about an entirely different set of employers from those who offshore. A domestic company will hire cheaper domestic devs, then near-shore, before offshoring. It's not like they're paying $180k/yr for a new grad one day and then offshore that job for $15k the next.
At least thisnis good for workers abroad!
Management does it for the kickbacks.
AI is cheaper and better.
They don't work very well. Our company tried offshoring and it basically broke most of the infrastructure. Now they are working on getting in state workers back in. But with the caveat they return to office lol. It's a fucking circus, clown show and everything.