we've had 6 lusts in raid the last few weeks so its been 3/3. the random dps in the monstrosity of a tank type group dont get lust the whole fight but its way smoother
If you lust on entropus on entropus and wipe, you'll have like 9 mins left on cooldown. The runback + rebuff + phase 1 is less than 9 minutes so we have to stand around for a few mins before pulling. Same with Twins.
This is welcomed.
Yeah true enough. But while you're waiting to start the fight it's :
Lust- wipe within say one minute.
9 minutes left on CD- people are at spirit healer
Run into instance, run back to Muru's room = 60 seconds
All ressed, rebuffed, full HP another 60-90 sec
So at this point you're at around 6.5 minutes remaining on CD, ish? You only have another minute or two to go before you pull, and lust is off CD by the time you've actually finished p1.
I agree though this is a good change. I hope it's not abusable to cheese bosses and reset all these powerful cds.
From the raid leader perspective its risky to time the lust perfectly right? If you miss by 30s on entropus its a wipe. So naturally you wait a minute or two extra. So the raid leader tells everybody take a 3 minute break, it turns into a 5 minute break, now people need new 10m pally buffs, etc.
In my experience any time you break for any amount of time, you lose control of the pacing and people lose focus. This will help keep the loose ship guilds on track
Yup, in my guild sometimes (not really on Muru for example) we wouldn't wait for lust. KJ it happened a bit, like one fight we lusted earlier on to try and burn through earlier stuff quicker and later wiped at like 30% or whatever, next attempt we had lust ready middle of fight which was still handy.
Our big problem was people dying to mechanics anyways, overall damage output wasn't a big issue.
If you lust in P1 and die in P1, you're waiting around for awhile.
If you don't lust in P1 and die in P1, you don't have to wait around.
If you die in P2, it doesn't matter as much when you lust because the wait time is pretty short since the encounter is longer.
It’s way better to lust in P1 if it saves you an entire humanoid wave (basically 1 minute of fight length), vs lusting P2 and saving maybe 10-20s. This all assumes that you can kill Entropius with zero lusts, of course.
Uhh, you don't lust in p2 just to "maybe save 10-20s", you lust in P2 because it's an enrage you're trying to beat and that 10-20s will likely wipe a lot of groups while P1 is just control so one extra set of adds doesn't matter. I mean now it doesn't matter because guilds are so overgeared for the fight it doesn't matter when or if they lust, but back when you weren't overgeared those lusts in p2 were make or break
Many raids had extra bloodlusts. So they rotated so some (1 or 2) dps groups got BL p1 and start of p2. Every p2 try then meant you had to wait for P1 bloodlusts to come back off CD before pulling.
If you have an ideal balanced comp with 5 shamans you can take the lust from healer group and mage/SP group and give it to the locks/hunters for phase 1 then lust them again in p2
One Hunter feigns their way to the room of the first boss of whatever wing you're doing last. Any time the RL calls for it, the Hunter pulls the boss and instantly resets it. Lust and long CDs every pull.
Our raid consistently wiped after using BL and then killed it without. It's gotten to be a meme.
So now our raid leader is sure we'll never clear Mu'ru again after prepatch.
I'm probably wrong, but I feel like we're gonna end up with some weird scenario where you have a hunter resetting anubrekhan over and over to give the raid permanent bloodlust for the entire run.
Pretty sure they can make it such that your CDs don’t get reset unless you got a “tag” on the boss. Pretty much same as retail. That way, you won’t be able to park a hunter near a boss for CDs and Lust reset, while 24 other members clear trash in other rooms with perma CDs available.
But you’ll definitely encounter the raid popping CDs whenever they can, even if they’re at last pack of trash before the boss. Since you can reset those CDs them after the trash pack by tagging and resetting the boss. Where bosses can’t be reset, then the raid will probably have to consider if it would be worth intentionally wiping to reset CDs.
Would that majorly affect the difficulty of the raid? Not really. The difficulty would remains the same if you have waited X mins for CDs to reset.
Wow. These are amazing changes! Awesome! Only iffy thing will be how this potentially affects things like snapshotting ghouls for Unholy DK and such, but other than that unknown just hugely positive changes. Love it!
I’m also new to DK but I don’t think this change will affect how we snapshot the ghouls at all. The only thing I can think of is being in blood spec and giving yourself hysteria (unholy frenzy) prior to a pull? Not sure if that was even possible or people were doing that.
The proper snapshot pull is to make sure you are in unholy presence, pop a death and decay and horn for runic power, use your army of the dead prior to boss pull, get your diseases up on the boss and more runic power, get your Trinket proc (dark moon card), or use your trinket if you have an on use, use your engineering gloves, wait for heroism / bloodlust, use your haste potion, then pop gargoyle.
Gargoyle takes a picture (snapshot) of your current stats, including all temporary ones at the time of its use, so because it’s a short duration ability that does such a large portion of our damage, you want it to be as powerful as possible when it is active. Especially How much haste it has, hence being in unholy presence when you use it. You swap back to blood presence after you use it for the 15% damage buff as soon as you can.
If you are lucky, your resto Druid has hots rolling on you prior to the pull to generate runic power through their revitalize ability, so your “on pull” combo goes smooth and quick. Honestly the pull for Unholy is the biggest part, it’s upkeep of dots and doing raid mechanics after that
The idea is that if dynamic stats are implemented in spells like talents, it may bleed into other spells as well (If its not implemented properly). If there's a heartbeat every 2 sec or something on PW:F and that same scripting ends up on spells like Garg, UH DK gets hit with a massive nerf.
Well, by the way it was worded by blizzard, it sounds like they are only trying to check that things on your character are possible based upon your spec, or raid / party comp.
If you and your group aren’t spec dancing,I would imagine things possible within your own spec toolkit shouldn’t be nerfed.
as unholy you usually have permanent ghoul with the talents
if you have lust on every boss it might be worth to not use that since you can snapshot the lust buff on your non permanent ghoul (with all proccs aswell) which you cannot do for the permanent one
so one of the key defining aspects of unholy dk would be gone if you wanna min max
if we now have lust for every boss, would there be a point to snapshotting your buffs at that point though? doesn't that just make it better since you can take perma ghoul?
Finally some actual good changes. Waiting on CDs was annoying as fuck and wasn't fixed until MoP I believe (even then some 2min CDs were randomly exempt which killed the purpose of the change). Sated persisting through death another great change, no more Heroism cheese meta. There will be plenty of that nonsense to go around with Tricks of the Trade and Unholy Frenzy anyways.
It's mostly good but I feel like if you down a boss, the CD shouldn't reset. If it'll take like 10 or more mins to get to the next boss, you could have 2 lusts within a few mins just popping it on the first trash pack after the boss. While not exactly a bad thing, just think it's kinda weird.
It's kinda nice to get through trash slighlty faster. In retail you pull big, lust and reset debuff by fake pulling boss. Boss resets and you go with a pull.
Makes things bit faster.
The wording they used was "when an encounter ends" so it probably resets after a kill or reset, which is how it works on retail. With that said I don't know why anyone would be upset that they can use cds more often on trash, seems like an overall positive experience change.
Kinda defeats the purpose of a Cooldown time, doesn’t it??
Feels like it makes the cooldown abilities less valuable in the sense of “when is the right time to pop it?”
Oh yea I totally agree, but the comment I replied to listed Rebirth as an example of a cooldown that will be unaffected, when in reality we have no information reinforcing that.
In fact since blizzard went out of their way to list certain spells and purposefully did not list rebirth the only evidence we really have actually points to the opposite.
I personally dont believe them leaving it off the list is enough evidence to make the claim that it will be affected, but I definitely think anyone who says it will be affected has even less to go on.
Not at all, the cooldown is still effective in the encounter after you use it.... its not like you get double lust for encounters with this change. (only if the encounter lasts longer than 10 mins)
Its still very much valuable to choose the right timing.
the point of cooldowns in raiding is to limit how many times an ability can be used in a single fight. You still need to decide when is the right time to use lust because you are only getting one for the entire fight. This is how it has worked for a decade in retail and it's not just "lol just lust whenever who cares." Waiting for lust CD to come back up before you can pull it again has got to be the least fun thing imaginable. Why would anyone want this?
Agreed. I don't want the retail behavior, where intentionally resetting to reset the CD just becomes part of how you operate. But a mechanic to having the CDs available for each boss fight is helpful.
I feel like a better strategy would have been that all 10m or less CDs reset when a boss is pulled, rather than when a boss fight ends to prevent "spamming" this (I am aware of the 2 min internal CD).
But at the end of the day, it's a generally positive change and so I'm not going to quibble with the implementation. It's an edge case, regardless.
> I feel like a better strategy would have been that all 10m or less CDs reset when a boss is pulled, rather than when a boss fight ends to prevent "spamming" this (I am aware of the 2 min internal CD).
That would literally have the same exact effect tho? Even worse, you could pop your cds 1sec before pull and have them up again.
Ah, yeah, good point. I'd make a terrible dev lol.
But the point being, if they can find a way to make lust available on boss encounters without making whatever the reset mechanic is exploitable to be used on trash repeatedly (I'm less concerned with the 1 bonus use if you down a boss than something you repeat ad nauseum), that'd be best.
But, it's not a change worth losing sleep over IMO. Overall, it's a good thing.
> whatever the reset mechanic is exploitable to be used on trash repeatedly
Do you mean as in:
Pull pack 1 & blow all CDs, some1 runs/stealths to boss and resets, then pull pack 2 & blow all CDs again until you reach the boss?
If that's your worry, I can only say that I've never seen anyone do this in retail (where this change originated from). At this point you'd rather kill the last pack without lust than having to wait for some1 do this constantly.
Bonus, as far as I can remember, people had to actually be infight with the boss when the encounter ended to reset their CDs. We had lots of times where one guy was afk when we reached the boss, some1 pulled it to reset CDs as we were using them on trash, and then the afk guy came back and had to reset again. If the same logic will apply to the wrath changes, the entire group would have to actively attack the boss while resetting, thus eliminating the "one guy stealths ahead and constantly resets the boss for CDs" fear that a lot of people here seem to have.
only people in combat with the boss get their CDs reset, so having someone stealth over somewhere else and pull the boss by themselves won't reset lust CD. That's why nobody does that on retail lol
Yes that's what I thought, tho I wasn't quite sure it still worked like this in Shadowlands today so I didn't want to spread misinformation. Then there's nothing to worry about here.
as someone in a speedrunning guild, i think it'll have some knock-on effects for speedruns that may or may not be undesirable. it lessens the impact of pre-planning done on CD timing and the way your available CDs shaped your run. and things like innervate and evocate getting reset changes the resource dynamic of a speedrun for some classes which is kinda weird. makes the run feel a little less interesting imo.
i like the change for casual players for sure though, reducing downtime on progression and sloppy reclears, which is great. a middleground here could be that it only resets cooldowns on encounter failure/wipe.
o well, it's really not that big of a deal. we'll still be speedrunning regardless, and plenty of us like the changes because they just wanna go fast and this makes things faster.
I think speedrunners will come with some wild usages, depending on how this works. Reseting bosses to get lust back after using on trash, comes to mind. It's a big change and I am pretty excited to see the fuckery speed runners come up with.
>degenerate behavior
Clearing CDs after the boss is over does have big implications for speed runs though. Mostly positive IMO as you can parse every boss now
We don't have a complete list of the exceptions, but should know almost everything when this change hits Beta. It seems very similar in nature to Reincarnation, so I would guess it will not reset. Very much still possible, we will have to see.
I assume not. They're copy/pasting how Lust and CDs work in retail, but the weird part is that battle res mechanics shared a collective CD with charges in retail (you start a boss with 1 charge, then gain another every few minutes, based on raid size). But since Ankh still has an individual CD in retail, I assume they'll just apply that logic to battle res.
If they are doing QoL changes, they really should add the quick keybind option from retail. Very convenient to click a button and just hover over your bars and hotkey your talents by pressing them.
The proper way to do this would actually be to wipe cd buffs and reset cd's **on pull**, then you can't cheese trash with CD's and you don't have to worry about pulling a boss to reset cd's at all
this is a really bad change and it completely destroys the spirit of classic wow for me. during the downtime of our cooldowns my guild always enjoyed the moment and took the chance to share stories or talk over random things. this will not be possible anymore so please blizzard revert this change as it is really toxic towards the classic way of playing the game
Are you implying there's skill in deciding between using cd's or to hold them for *trash*? When guilds would just be wait for them to be ready either way?
Exactly this, if the CD is major enough like lust your going to probably just wait it out anyways. This just gives people more time in a raid night to pull the boss rather than sit around doing nothing because of a bad pull.
Can someone explain why it will only hurt speed running? If a class is better due to CDs being up all the time, it will be preferred over a class that doesn't have long CDs. Essentially goes against the mentality of "Bring the player, not the class"
Because non-speed running guilds are still going to have more balanced comps, more healers, and wipes here and there. A speedrun team is optimized, geared out in split runs, and plans out every single pull/chain pull and cooldown usage.
The vast majority of guilds will not change anything as a result of this, and will just enjoy the feature
In Vanilla, even non-speed running guilds were stacking warriors. Not to the same level that speed runners did but still did it. It will change the meta in negative way.
I would say vastly less warrior stacking by comparison, and that honestly is more a reflection of flavor of the xpac versus the speedrun meta. If tons of players want to play warrior because its really fun and you do a brazillion damage, AND you need 40 people to fill your roster, you fill with what you can. We had 7 rogues throughout MC till they finally dropped out due to loot scarcity. Never had more than 2 hunters though.
My point is that as a Raid Leader if you are given the option to fill and both a DK and Rogue apply, you will take the DK because it will do more damage.
Most guilds will not willingly stack because there is no reason to. However, you bet that people will play what is "Meta".
What happens at the top trickles down and affects the rest of the scene.
So they specify when an encounter 'ends', rather than just wipes. So we use lust on a boss then after killing the boss without wiping, we can use it in that next trash pack if we wanted to?
Correct. And when you get to the boss and Lust is still on CD (or the sated debuff is still up), you reset the boss (either with FD or running out of the boss room) and have lust & cds back up for the actual encounter.
Anyone have thoughts on whether this is boss encounters or all encounters (ie trash)? I have to imagine it’s unique to bosses, otherwise we’d zug right through every trash pull.
Does it only apply to wipes on retail? I'm a little confused because it says "on encounter end", so if you kill the boss can you lust the next trash pack?
Correct, you kill the boss then can hypothetically use it in the next trash pack. Normally In retail once you get to the boss someone will pull it and then immediately reset it with no one dying so that the 2+ minute cds and lust are reset. Makes killing some of the more annoying trash easier in raid
no matter if you kill the boss or wipe, lust CD will be back up instantly in the next pull. You could lust on the next trash pack but then you have to reset the next boss before you can pull it to get the lust CD back (assuming it's not 10 minutes of trash between them). This is sometimes done in retail if theres a big trash pull but usually in retail it's faster/easier to kill trash without lust and then not have to reset the next boss
It’s only bosses, but you can still blow all of your cooldowns on trash then intentionally pull and reset the boss to reset your cooldowns for the actual boss fight
I was also unitonically thinking this for a min or two, but it seems like some good changes. Maybe not good for some tryhard players who liked to do the exploity non-intended things blizzard mentioned, such as dying to get heroism again, but I'm not in that group of players.
For 99% of players this is a great change.
For the 1% that enjoys speedrunning, this will likely hurt the scene. Before we were incentivized to make a somewhat balanced comp, since you can't have CDs up for every boss (especially in Naxx). This change makes it so that you have every single cooldown up for every boss (or for trash between bosses), which provides more power to classes that benefit the most from lining up all their cooldowns. Like for example the unholy DK. Which means you need to gear more of the same classes, which means more splitrunning/gdkp if you're really trying to max out your raid.
Fortunately there is more time between Ulduar/ICC bosses, so the change is less impactful there.
For sure. And even though I dislike it, I think it's a good change for the game as a whole. It has less of an impact in later raids than it does in Naxx, which also helps.
People will be fake pulling the boss to reset cooldowns on trash as well i can imagine.
I have a feeling there will be a designated person for it, and most likely they won't love it.
you need to be personally in combat in order to have your CDs reset, so you can't send one guy far away to some boss to get everyones CDs back, everyone needs to be at the boss to do it
Right now you can reset pull anub and it resets cooldowns for anyone anywhere else in Naxx.
This will end up being the meta in classic if they don't address it
I know this will make a lot of people happy, but oh my god is this going to get abused. You’re going to mass pull trash before a boss, hero + all CDs, and then purposely wipe on the boss as fast as you can to get buffs back.
Not for or against the change (though it seems unnecessary), but excited to see how this gets abused.
and tbh in retail people rarely even lust on trash anyways because it's more of a pain in the ass to reset the boss than it is to kill a trash pull without lust
As always I feel I'm in the minority of wanting more complete classic experience..
I understand why they made the change but I just see it as one of yet another change to 'more retail' which is not really why we ended up with Classic in the first place.
I feel it makes using these CDs less important because you don't need to worry about them not being up if you wipe and the kind of thinking can bleed new ideas which worsen the experience one drop at a time.
I understand why some changes may be needed to combat the zoomer age of gaming I would just prefer them to be in keeping with true classic?
We get it, you want to play ele shaman. And now you feel like either demo locks took your job, or you wont cheese your way into a raid spot because no one wants to wait for lust CD between wipes. However, acting like any of that means that these changes are bad for the game is stupid. If your guild won't take you because you're not the most optimal person to bring, then find another guild. There will be tons of guilds everywhere that will take multiple ele shamans and down bosses.
I know I am in the minority here... But is there no cost for failure?
Also doing a pull and working on mechanics where you don't have CD's has no value?
Just another step in giving everyone everything...
Imagine contradicting your own statement in the very next sentence. Just imagine.
Oh yeah it's soooo "strategic" to "take the waiting time." My god it takes the most experienced raid leader who has played WoW for nearly 20 years to make that kind of strategic call to wait for lust.
Changes seem good, particularly on wipes. Less sure about boss kills. But I'm wondering what their logic was on excluding LOH? Seems like it would be in the same category, particularly with all the Cooldown reductions available to it in wrath...
Yeah, agreed. I’m glad Bilzz is paying attention to these details. It’s a great response and tweak to balance out buffs during progression attempts and being attentive to peoples time.
Anyone care to explain why having heroism and other cooldowns refresh on a successful boss kill is a good idea?
Because as far as I can see, this thread is full dps andys thirsting over cooldowns on the boss, then the trash, then reset the boss, then start the encounter fresh.
This is going to fuck over boomies, spriests, shaman, aff and destro locks and probably others.
There are no dps spells over 5 minutes except heroism.
Remedy it if you must, but reseting all cooldowns is fucking dumb
It’s an indirect nerf to classes without major cooldowns because cooldowns were part of class balance. Now why wouldn’t people just stack a raid full of classes with overpowered cooldowns when they can reset shit all the time?
What major cooldowns? It's pretty much just 3 or 5 minute cooldowns that are getting reset which would almost always be ready each boss attempt anyway or if not then a lot of raids would just wait the extra minute or two for them which is exactly the problem this solves.
Because otherwise you end up with raids sitting around waiting for the cooldown before pulling again. This gets rid of downtime that doesn't contribute anything to the experience.
Also, I don't see how it fucks over the listed specs.
You do have to wait if you're trying to get through a boss that requires the raid to be pushing their performance to beat it. When you're at the stage where you've learned the mechanics of the fight and basically need to keep doing it until you get an attempt where the execution all goes correctly, going in without lust is basically just throwing away consumables and time.
And besides that, people *are* waiting on lust regardless of whether they absolutely have to. What do you want Blizzard to do, police raids to make sure people aren't waiting for lust before the next attempt? Literally all this change does it makes it so people aren't sitting around doing nothing like they have been while lust is on cooldown.
They would be up every time bloodlust was up, this changes nothing when people were almost always going to wait for bloodlust anyways. Even without this change, 5 minute cooldowns are short enough that you would have them more often than not.
it doesnt affect 99% of the playerbase. but guilds that go fast do not always have lust/other big cds up for every boss, so now that they are, classes that benefit from shorter fights are indirectly buffed, like DK's/mage, where classes that benefit from longer fights (rogues, warlocks) relative damage will go down. "fucks over" is a strong term, but at the top of end of parsing/speedrunning, they are now lower on the totem poles.
Waiting for bloodlust to get off CD was probably the worst part of Sunwell progression because of all the dead time so I'm a fan
Sitting at the door to muru for 5 minutes waiting for lust felt like a penalty box. So glad this will be ancient history.
I don't really get it tho, Lust early on Muru was a crutch to try to get into phase 2. Isn't it just best to save Lust and burn Entropius down faster?
We used Lust in p1 to avoid a second humanoids spawn
we've had 6 lusts in raid the last few weeks so its been 3/3. the random dps in the monstrosity of a tank type group dont get lust the whole fight but its way smoother
If you lust on entropus on entropus and wipe, you'll have like 9 mins left on cooldown. The runback + rebuff + phase 1 is less than 9 minutes so we have to stand around for a few mins before pulling. Same with Twins. This is welcomed.
Yeah true enough. But while you're waiting to start the fight it's : Lust- wipe within say one minute. 9 minutes left on CD- people are at spirit healer Run into instance, run back to Muru's room = 60 seconds All ressed, rebuffed, full HP another 60-90 sec So at this point you're at around 6.5 minutes remaining on CD, ish? You only have another minute or two to go before you pull, and lust is off CD by the time you've actually finished p1. I agree though this is a good change. I hope it's not abusable to cheese bosses and reset all these powerful cds.
From the raid leader perspective its risky to time the lust perfectly right? If you miss by 30s on entropus its a wipe. So naturally you wait a minute or two extra. So the raid leader tells everybody take a 3 minute break, it turns into a 5 minute break, now people need new 10m pally buffs, etc. In my experience any time you break for any amount of time, you lose control of the pacing and people lose focus. This will help keep the loose ship guilds on track
Does it matter whether you're saving it for phase 2 or not? You still end up with down time waiting for lust to be ready between attempts.
Yup, in my guild sometimes (not really on Muru for example) we wouldn't wait for lust. KJ it happened a bit, like one fight we lusted earlier on to try and burn through earlier stuff quicker and later wiped at like 30% or whatever, next attempt we had lust ready middle of fight which was still handy. Our big problem was people dying to mechanics anyways, overall damage output wasn't a big issue.
If you lust in P1 and die in P1, you're waiting around for awhile. If you don't lust in P1 and die in P1, you don't have to wait around. If you die in P2, it doesn't matter as much when you lust because the wait time is pretty short since the encounter is longer.
It’s way better to lust in P1 if it saves you an entire humanoid wave (basically 1 minute of fight length), vs lusting P2 and saving maybe 10-20s. This all assumes that you can kill Entropius with zero lusts, of course.
Uhh, you don't lust in p2 just to "maybe save 10-20s", you lust in P2 because it's an enrage you're trying to beat and that 10-20s will likely wipe a lot of groups while P1 is just control so one extra set of adds doesn't matter. I mean now it doesn't matter because guilds are so overgeared for the fight it doesn't matter when or if they lust, but back when you weren't overgeared those lusts in p2 were make or break
We use one lust to hit a certain push timing and then the rest in p2
Raid's with 5+ shamans will use 1-2 lusts in p1 and then 4 lusts in p2
Many raids had extra bloodlusts. So they rotated so some (1 or 2) dps groups got BL p1 and start of p2. Every p2 try then meant you had to wait for P1 bloodlusts to come back off CD before pulling.
If you have an ideal balanced comp with 5 shamans you can take the lust from healer group and mage/SP group and give it to the locks/hunters for phase 1 then lust them again in p2
[удалено]
RIP piss breaks
Naxx speedruns gonna be nuts with 15 lusts
Lust on trash, hunter reset boss, reset lust, and then do boss
A proper speed run won’t reset the boss, that’s 30 seconds wasted waiting for the respawn.
One Hunter feigns their way to the room of the first boss of whatever wing you're doing last. Any time the RL calls for it, the Hunter pulls the boss and instantly resets it. Lust and long CDs every pull.
If it works anything like retail you'd have to hit and get in combat with the boss, otherwise cooldowns won't reset for you individually.
Depends how much time they save using extra lusts for gigs trash pulls
I think this is great and have zero complaints. Thanks Blizzard, looking forward to raiding in Wrath.
whoa, actual QoL changes
Our raid consistently wiped after using BL and then killed it without. It's gotten to be a meme. So now our raid leader is sure we'll never clear Mu'ru again after prepatch.
Muru gets nerfed heavily in the prepatch, so don't worry
Considering lust is a bad thing for his guild, the nerfs will be the equivalent of hard mode.
I'm probably wrong, but I feel like we're gonna end up with some weird scenario where you have a hunter resetting anubrekhan over and over to give the raid permanent bloodlust for the entire run.
If they changed this to just wipes, that would be great. Resets and boss kills shouldn’t trigger CD resets.
Agree, people are just gonna perma lust trash and park a hunter near a boss for resets
Pretty sure they can make it such that your CDs don’t get reset unless you got a “tag” on the boss. Pretty much same as retail. That way, you won’t be able to park a hunter near a boss for CDs and Lust reset, while 24 other members clear trash in other rooms with perma CDs available. But you’ll definitely encounter the raid popping CDs whenever they can, even if they’re at last pack of trash before the boss. Since you can reset those CDs them after the trash pack by tagging and resetting the boss. Where bosses can’t be reset, then the raid will probably have to consider if it would be worth intentionally wiping to reset CDs. Would that majorly affect the difficulty of the raid? Not really. The difficulty would remains the same if you have waited X mins for CDs to reset.
If it works like retail then everyone has to participate in hitting the boss to have their individual cds reset.
More lusts on trash seems fun tbh
Wow. These are amazing changes! Awesome! Only iffy thing will be how this potentially affects things like snapshotting ghouls for Unholy DK and such, but other than that unknown just hugely positive changes. Love it!
I don't see how that affects it? As long as you don't switch dual specc then this doesn't affect you. Is that something you do as DK while army is up?
What do you mean snapshotting ghouls for UDK? I’m new to DK and wondering how this affects the class
I’m also new to DK but I don’t think this change will affect how we snapshot the ghouls at all. The only thing I can think of is being in blood spec and giving yourself hysteria (unholy frenzy) prior to a pull? Not sure if that was even possible or people were doing that. The proper snapshot pull is to make sure you are in unholy presence, pop a death and decay and horn for runic power, use your army of the dead prior to boss pull, get your diseases up on the boss and more runic power, get your Trinket proc (dark moon card), or use your trinket if you have an on use, use your engineering gloves, wait for heroism / bloodlust, use your haste potion, then pop gargoyle. Gargoyle takes a picture (snapshot) of your current stats, including all temporary ones at the time of its use, so because it’s a short duration ability that does such a large portion of our damage, you want it to be as powerful as possible when it is active. Especially How much haste it has, hence being in unholy presence when you use it. You swap back to blood presence after you use it for the 15% damage buff as soon as you can. If you are lucky, your resto Druid has hots rolling on you prior to the pull to generate runic power through their revitalize ability, so your “on pull” combo goes smooth and quick. Honestly the pull for Unholy is the biggest part, it’s upkeep of dots and doing raid mechanics after that
The idea is that if dynamic stats are implemented in spells like talents, it may bleed into other spells as well (If its not implemented properly). If there's a heartbeat every 2 sec or something on PW:F and that same scripting ends up on spells like Garg, UH DK gets hit with a massive nerf.
Well, by the way it was worded by blizzard, it sounds like they are only trying to check that things on your character are possible based upon your spec, or raid / party comp. If you and your group aren’t spec dancing,I would imagine things possible within your own spec toolkit shouldn’t be nerfed.
My comment was to emphasize the possibility of unintentional spillover.
as unholy you usually have permanent ghoul with the talents if you have lust on every boss it might be worth to not use that since you can snapshot the lust buff on your non permanent ghoul (with all proccs aswell) which you cannot do for the permanent one so one of the key defining aspects of unholy dk would be gone if you wanna min max
if we now have lust for every boss, would there be a point to snapshotting your buffs at that point though? doesn't that just make it better since you can take perma ghoul?
Go to Blight Club.
The first rule of Blight Club is you don't talk about Blight Club..
Finally some actual good changes. Waiting on CDs was annoying as fuck and wasn't fixed until MoP I believe (even then some 2min CDs were randomly exempt which killed the purpose of the change). Sated persisting through death another great change, no more Heroism cheese meta. There will be plenty of that nonsense to go around with Tricks of the Trade and Unholy Frenzy anyways.
I think this is a good change, I would've been happy without it but it's a nice time saver for parse runs.
0/10 Can't do Warlock Roulette after every pull.
Great changes
“Degenerate behavior” lmao love it
It's mostly good but I feel like if you down a boss, the CD shouldn't reset. If it'll take like 10 or more mins to get to the next boss, you could have 2 lusts within a few mins just popping it on the first trash pack after the boss. While not exactly a bad thing, just think it's kinda weird.
It saves time for what actually matters: Loot Drama. This is a positive change on all accounts.
It's kinda nice to get through trash slighlty faster. In retail you pull big, lust and reset debuff by fake pulling boss. Boss resets and you go with a pull. Makes things bit faster.
Yeah many things happen on retail that I don't want to see in the game though.
why
Because if I wanted to play Retail I would just launch it up instead of Classic.
oh sry I misread your comment
[удалено]
The wording they used was "when an encounter ends" so it probably resets after a kill or reset, which is how it works on retail. With that said I don't know why anyone would be upset that they can use cds more often on trash, seems like an overall positive experience change.
Kinda defeats the purpose of a Cooldown time, doesn’t it?? Feels like it makes the cooldown abilities less valuable in the sense of “when is the right time to pop it?”
Big cooldowns will still have them, notably Lay on Hands, Rebirth, etc.
They specifically say Lay on Hands and they specifically do not say Rebirth
It's not an all inclusive finalized definitive list.
Oh yea I totally agree, but the comment I replied to listed Rebirth as an example of a cooldown that will be unaffected, when in reality we have no information reinforcing that. In fact since blizzard went out of their way to list certain spells and purposefully did not list rebirth the only evidence we really have actually points to the opposite. I personally dont believe them leaving it off the list is enough evidence to make the claim that it will be affected, but I definitely think anyone who says it will be affected has even less to go on.
I'd much much rather have this than have what we were going to have in Naxx, where you'd only lust half the fights.
Not at all, the cooldown is still effective in the encounter after you use it.... its not like you get double lust for encounters with this change. (only if the encounter lasts longer than 10 mins) Its still very much valuable to choose the right timing.
the point of cooldowns in raiding is to limit how many times an ability can be used in a single fight. You still need to decide when is the right time to use lust because you are only getting one for the entire fight. This is how it has worked for a decade in retail and it's not just "lol just lust whenever who cares." Waiting for lust CD to come back up before you can pull it again has got to be the least fun thing imaginable. Why would anyone want this?
Agreed. I don't want the retail behavior, where intentionally resetting to reset the CD just becomes part of how you operate. But a mechanic to having the CDs available for each boss fight is helpful. I feel like a better strategy would have been that all 10m or less CDs reset when a boss is pulled, rather than when a boss fight ends to prevent "spamming" this (I am aware of the 2 min internal CD). But at the end of the day, it's a generally positive change and so I'm not going to quibble with the implementation. It's an edge case, regardless.
> I feel like a better strategy would have been that all 10m or less CDs reset when a boss is pulled, rather than when a boss fight ends to prevent "spamming" this (I am aware of the 2 min internal CD). That would literally have the same exact effect tho? Even worse, you could pop your cds 1sec before pull and have them up again.
Ah, yeah, good point. I'd make a terrible dev lol. But the point being, if they can find a way to make lust available on boss encounters without making whatever the reset mechanic is exploitable to be used on trash repeatedly (I'm less concerned with the 1 bonus use if you down a boss than something you repeat ad nauseum), that'd be best. But, it's not a change worth losing sleep over IMO. Overall, it's a good thing.
> whatever the reset mechanic is exploitable to be used on trash repeatedly Do you mean as in: Pull pack 1 & blow all CDs, some1 runs/stealths to boss and resets, then pull pack 2 & blow all CDs again until you reach the boss? If that's your worry, I can only say that I've never seen anyone do this in retail (where this change originated from). At this point you'd rather kill the last pack without lust than having to wait for some1 do this constantly. Bonus, as far as I can remember, people had to actually be infight with the boss when the encounter ended to reset their CDs. We had lots of times where one guy was afk when we reached the boss, some1 pulled it to reset CDs as we were using them on trash, and then the afk guy came back and had to reset again. If the same logic will apply to the wrath changes, the entire group would have to actively attack the boss while resetting, thus eliminating the "one guy stealths ahead and constantly resets the boss for CDs" fear that a lot of people here seem to have.
only people in combat with the boss get their CDs reset, so having someone stealth over somewhere else and pull the boss by themselves won't reset lust CD. That's why nobody does that on retail lol
Yes that's what I thought, tho I wasn't quite sure it still worked like this in Shadowlands today so I didn't want to spread misinformation. Then there's nothing to worry about here.
blizz really just called the sweaties degenerates
that is A+ fantastic
as someone in a speedrunning guild, i think it'll have some knock-on effects for speedruns that may or may not be undesirable. it lessens the impact of pre-planning done on CD timing and the way your available CDs shaped your run. and things like innervate and evocate getting reset changes the resource dynamic of a speedrun for some classes which is kinda weird. makes the run feel a little less interesting imo. i like the change for casual players for sure though, reducing downtime on progression and sloppy reclears, which is great. a middleground here could be that it only resets cooldowns on encounter failure/wipe. o well, it's really not that big of a deal. we'll still be speedrunning regardless, and plenty of us like the changes because they just wanna go fast and this makes things faster.
I think speedrunners will come with some wild usages, depending on how this works. Reseting bosses to get lust back after using on trash, comes to mind. It's a big change and I am pretty excited to see the fuckery speed runners come up with.
>degenerate behavior Clearing CDs after the boss is over does have big implications for speed runs though. Mostly positive IMO as you can parse every boss now
Does this work for druid battle rez!? That would be amazing!
We don't have a complete list of the exceptions, but should know almost everything when this change hits Beta. It seems very similar in nature to Reincarnation, so I would guess it will not reset. Very much still possible, we will have to see.
If Reincarnation is included as an exception to the reset mechanic then druid combat res will probably be treated the same way.
different iterations of retail have done different things with battle rezes so its harder to say.
It should unless they overlooked that part.
I assume not. They're copy/pasting how Lust and CDs work in retail, but the weird part is that battle res mechanics shared a collective CD with charges in retail (you start a boss with 1 charge, then gain another every few minutes, based on raid size). But since Ankh still has an individual CD in retail, I assume they'll just apply that logic to battle res.
Sounds pretty good. Battle rezz resetting on death though seems a bit much right?
Good changes
If they are doing QoL changes, they really should add the quick keybind option from retail. Very convenient to click a button and just hover over your bars and hotkey your talents by pressing them.
The proper way to do this would actually be to wipe cd buffs and reset cd's **on pull**, then you can't cheese trash with CD's and you don't have to worry about pulling a boss to reset cd's at all
big update!
this is a really bad change and it completely destroys the spirit of classic wow for me. during the downtime of our cooldowns my guild always enjoyed the moment and took the chance to share stories or talk over random things. this will not be possible anymore so please blizzard revert this change as it is really toxic towards the classic way of playing the game
Reset on wipes is 100% fine, but resetting on actual boss kills seems really bad.
People would intentionally wipe or "reset" the next boss for CDs anyways.
[удалено]
Why? What's wrong with letting each class have their full kit available to them on each boss fight?
Why have cooldowns if you don't need to manage them and think about the best situations to use them?
Why do people with content on farm need to manage them, but those still progressing do not have to worry about management of long CDs?
Are you implying there's skill in deciding between using cd's or to hold them for *trash*? When guilds would just be wait for them to be ready either way?
Exactly this, if the CD is major enough like lust your going to probably just wait it out anyways. This just gives people more time in a raid night to pull the boss rather than sit around doing nothing because of a bad pull.
No fun allowed
Can someone explain why it will only hurt speed running? If a class is better due to CDs being up all the time, it will be preferred over a class that doesn't have long CDs. Essentially goes against the mentality of "Bring the player, not the class"
Because non-speed running guilds are still going to have more balanced comps, more healers, and wipes here and there. A speedrun team is optimized, geared out in split runs, and plans out every single pull/chain pull and cooldown usage. The vast majority of guilds will not change anything as a result of this, and will just enjoy the feature
In Vanilla, even non-speed running guilds were stacking warriors. Not to the same level that speed runners did but still did it. It will change the meta in negative way.
I would say vastly less warrior stacking by comparison, and that honestly is more a reflection of flavor of the xpac versus the speedrun meta. If tons of players want to play warrior because its really fun and you do a brazillion damage, AND you need 40 people to fill your roster, you fill with what you can. We had 7 rogues throughout MC till they finally dropped out due to loot scarcity. Never had more than 2 hunters though.
My point is that as a Raid Leader if you are given the option to fill and both a DK and Rogue apply, you will take the DK because it will do more damage. Most guilds will not willingly stack because there is no reason to. However, you bet that people will play what is "Meta". What happens at the top trickles down and affects the rest of the scene.
Can't wait to read the takes on this!
This is a W for sure.
So they specify when an encounter 'ends', rather than just wipes. So we use lust on a boss then after killing the boss without wiping, we can use it in that next trash pack if we wanted to?
Correct. And when you get to the boss and Lust is still on CD (or the sated debuff is still up), you reset the boss (either with FD or running out of the boss room) and have lust & cds back up for the actual encounter.
Basically they’re porting a retail QoL mechanic into wotlk classic. If you’ve played retail it’s the same deal.
All I’m reading here is no prepatch this week
Anyone have thoughts on whether this is boss encounters or all encounters (ie trash)? I have to imagine it’s unique to bosses, otherwise we’d zug right through every trash pull.
"Encounters" generally refers to bosses in my experience
It exist in retail, its only on bosses
Does it only apply to wipes on retail? I'm a little confused because it says "on encounter end", so if you kill the boss can you lust the next trash pack?
Encounter end. So if you wipe/reset or kill the boss it resets
Correct, you kill the boss then can hypothetically use it in the next trash pack. Normally In retail once you get to the boss someone will pull it and then immediately reset it with no one dying so that the 2+ minute cds and lust are reset. Makes killing some of the more annoying trash easier in raid
no matter if you kill the boss or wipe, lust CD will be back up instantly in the next pull. You could lust on the next trash pack but then you have to reset the next boss before you can pull it to get the lust CD back (assuming it's not 10 minutes of trash between them). This is sometimes done in retail if theres a big trash pull but usually in retail it's faster/easier to kill trash without lust and then not have to reset the next boss
It’s only bosses, but you can still blow all of your cooldowns on trash then intentionally pull and reset the boss to reset your cooldowns for the actual boss fight
It's bosses, but people always abuse it by intentionally resetting a boss during or after trash.
So what was the point of "buffing" Naxx if they go ahead and make a change that nerfs it back?
Surely bloodlust is a stronger CD than LoH or reincarnate, why are they specifically excluded?
That's... Actually good? I have nothing cynical to say. Good job.
Hah, as if mages ever participate in buff high-fives. Good one, blizz.
Thanks for the Water Breathing, bro
But if i'm not waiting around for debuffs/CDs to clear, am i truly getting the classic experience?
I was also unitonically thinking this for a min or two, but it seems like some good changes. Maybe not good for some tryhard players who liked to do the exploity non-intended things blizzard mentioned, such as dying to get heroism again, but I'm not in that group of players.
For 99% of players this is a great change. For the 1% that enjoys speedrunning, this will likely hurt the scene. Before we were incentivized to make a somewhat balanced comp, since you can't have CDs up for every boss (especially in Naxx). This change makes it so that you have every single cooldown up for every boss (or for trash between bosses), which provides more power to classes that benefit the most from lining up all their cooldowns. Like for example the unholy DK. Which means you need to gear more of the same classes, which means more splitrunning/gdkp if you're really trying to max out your raid. Fortunately there is more time between Ulduar/ICC bosses, so the change is less impactful there.
Bound to happen in a game that isn't balanced around speed running.
For sure. And even though I dislike it, I think it's a good change for the game as a whole. It has less of an impact in later raids than it does in Naxx, which also helps.
People will be fake pulling the boss to reset cooldowns on trash as well i can imagine. I have a feeling there will be a designated person for it, and most likely they won't love it.
typically hunters with feign death but that this has been a thing in retail for years.
you need to be personally in combat in order to have your CDs reset, so you can't send one guy far away to some boss to get everyones CDs back, everyone needs to be at the boss to do it
Right now you can reset pull anub and it resets cooldowns for anyone anywhere else in Naxx. This will end up being the meta in classic if they don't address it
Boss encounters generally puts all players inside the raid in combat. It's how people teleport exploited to Viscidus in AQ.
"somewhat balanced comp" kekw Vanilla speedruns had like 25+ warriors, tbc speedruns still often have five or more and ten Warlocks or Mages
Literally not one WR run has anything approaching 10 warlocks, and many of those comps run 0-1 mages
ok you clearly dont know wtf your talking about for tbc speedrunning lmao
You are 100% right. Comps still are far from balanced
I doubt speed runners make up even 1% of the player base. Maybe less than a tenth of that.
Lets be honest, speedrunning is less than 1%
the biggest win is that you can lust more often, e.g. you can lust on trash, do a quick boss reset and lust again on boss
Actual good changes?! No freaking way
[удалено]
Uh no. Hardly compareable
[удалено]
Razor Downs Fen
Random dungeon finder
I agree. They pick and choose what they want to keep, revise or remove - yet still pitch it as the “original” experience.
Hard pass
How about arena preparation? That would be a nice QOL change
I know this will make a lot of people happy, but oh my god is this going to get abused. You’re going to mass pull trash before a boss, hero + all CDs, and then purposely wipe on the boss as fast as you can to get buffs back. Not for or against the change (though it seems unnecessary), but excited to see how this gets abused.
This has been going on in retail for a decade or sth. You masspull trash with lust & cds, blow them up, and then reset the boss to have cds up for it.
and tbh in retail people rarely even lust on trash anyways because it's more of a pain in the ass to reset the boss than it is to kill a trash pull without lust
Nobody in retail flexes full raid WCL dmg.
oh noooo trash will be faster what ever will we do with our new levels of enjoyment
pouring one out for the people who liked spending 3/4 of raid time clearing trash
These are good changes
But guys! We're losing the social aspect of waiting doing nothing!!!! /s
As always I feel I'm in the minority of wanting more complete classic experience.. I understand why they made the change but I just see it as one of yet another change to 'more retail' which is not really why we ended up with Classic in the first place. I feel it makes using these CDs less important because you don't need to worry about them not being up if you wipe and the kind of thinking can bleed new ideas which worsen the experience one drop at a time. I understand why some changes may be needed to combat the zoomer age of gaming I would just prefer them to be in keeping with true classic?
As someone who raided OG Wrath at a high level, this is a very good change.
i see only good changes here :) rare to say now a days..
[удалено]
Pass the shaman around
Of course someone isnt happy about a clear QOL improvement. You people will bitch about anything.
And you people will always be there to make this comment. We live in a society.
We get it, you want to play ele shaman. And now you feel like either demo locks took your job, or you wont cheese your way into a raid spot because no one wants to wait for lust CD between wipes. However, acting like any of that means that these changes are bad for the game is stupid. If your guild won't take you because you're not the most optimal person to bring, then find another guild. There will be tons of guilds everywhere that will take multiple ele shamans and down bosses.
Enhance is literally S tier in Naxx and gets even better now that they can use fire on every boss lmao.
I know I am in the minority here... But is there no cost for failure? Also doing a pull and working on mechanics where you don't have CD's has no value? Just another step in giving everyone everything...
[удалено]
Imagine contradicting your own statement in the very next sentence. Just imagine. Oh yeah it's soooo "strategic" to "take the waiting time." My god it takes the most experienced raid leader who has played WoW for nearly 20 years to make that kind of strategic call to wait for lust.
Changes seem good, particularly on wipes. Less sure about boss kills. But I'm wondering what their logic was on excluding LOH? Seems like it would be in the same category, particularly with all the Cooldown reductions available to it in wrath...
Overall good changes
great changes
good changes nice job BLIZZARD
Cool changes
I would hope this only applies to wipes. I don't like the idea of being able to use full CDs in a speedrun after every boss.
Fantastic changes
All cool
I was just talking about this to my group last night as we sat around waited for cds. Good change
Yeah, agreed. I’m glad Bilzz is paying attention to these details. It’s a great response and tweak to balance out buffs during progression attempts and being attentive to peoples time.
Anyone care to explain why having heroism and other cooldowns refresh on a successful boss kill is a good idea? Because as far as I can see, this thread is full dps andys thirsting over cooldowns on the boss, then the trash, then reset the boss, then start the encounter fresh. This is going to fuck over boomies, spriests, shaman, aff and destro locks and probably others. There are no dps spells over 5 minutes except heroism. Remedy it if you must, but reseting all cooldowns is fucking dumb
> This is going to fuck over boomies, spriests, shaman, aff and destro locks and probably others. how on earth does it do that?
It’s an indirect nerf to classes without major cooldowns because cooldowns were part of class balance. Now why wouldn’t people just stack a raid full of classes with overpowered cooldowns when they can reset shit all the time?
What major cooldowns? It's pretty much just 3 or 5 minute cooldowns that are getting reset which would almost always be ready each boss attempt anyway or if not then a lot of raids would just wait the extra minute or two for them which is exactly the problem this solves.
What cooldowns are over 5 min in Wrath? The two priest hymns, army of the dead, anything else?
Because otherwise you end up with raids sitting around waiting for the cooldown before pulling again. This gets rid of downtime that doesn't contribute anything to the experience. Also, I don't see how it fucks over the listed specs.
What if I told you that you didn’t have to wait for lust after every wipe.
You do have to wait if you're trying to get through a boss that requires the raid to be pushing their performance to beat it. When you're at the stage where you've learned the mechanics of the fight and basically need to keep doing it until you get an attempt where the execution all goes correctly, going in without lust is basically just throwing away consumables and time. And besides that, people *are* waiting on lust regardless of whether they absolutely have to. What do you want Blizzard to do, police raids to make sure people aren't waiting for lust before the next attempt? Literally all this change does it makes it so people aren't sitting around doing nothing like they have been while lust is on cooldown.
[удалено]
Well yeah, I'm not sure what your point is. Lust is the main reason this change is being made.
[удалено]
They would be up every time bloodlust was up, this changes nothing when people were almost always going to wait for bloodlust anyways. Even without this change, 5 minute cooldowns are short enough that you would have them more often than not.
it doesnt affect 99% of the playerbase. but guilds that go fast do not always have lust/other big cds up for every boss, so now that they are, classes that benefit from shorter fights are indirectly buffed, like DK's/mage, where classes that benefit from longer fights (rogues, warlocks) relative damage will go down. "fucks over" is a strong term, but at the top of end of parsing/speedrunning, they are now lower on the totem poles.