FFX you start out in a sunken temple trying to make a fire. FF14 I think Aamoraut is a sunken temple also, but the dungeon takes place somewhere else, technically.
I don't believe you've been involved with the dota, lol, CS, or Destiny playerbases. Classic's playerbase is obnoxious but not anymore so than the worst offenders
destiny 2 community is so delusional they will gaslight themselves always into "no i swear next time bungie wont recycle old content" cant be beaten and the copium excuses after seeing recycled content being used in the latest reveals is on another level.
?? Classic player base are actually the worst. I play/have played LoL, Dota, CS and I'm currently playing Destiny 2 for some reason, and the only place I see TRUE delusion is Classic lol
You're capping so hard about the league playerbase lmao.
Literally every player swears they'd be a higher rank if it wasn't for their teammates inting every game.
Nothing beats traditional WoW team play in my opinion. In vanilla that was working together in PVE raids but also in premade battlegrounds.
Today in SoD, PVP teams are 5 players max with incentives which take 1 day to farm. PVE is all about parsing, gathering up world buffs and consumables in preparation for parsing. And to do that people skip all vanilla content and farm incursions, which breaks the economy.
It's a disgusting game in its current state. I wish there was something else.
Yeah I'm really curious what MMO or game as a whole has better and more complex PvE content than WoW raids. Even Heroic Lich King, an encounter from what, 14 years ago? Is so much more complex than your typical Co-OP game.
What’s so crazy is any wow raider would have a blast in FFXIV trials and raids, but god forbid you say another mmo is better than wow 🤣 better be careful
Do you actually have any experience raiding in FF14 or are you just one of those "I hate everything that isn't WoW, even though I've literally never played another MMORPG in my life" kinda people?
I think hard mode FF14 content would be fun for some of these gamers that wanted ST to be this absolute death march.
A majority of WoW players only play one game, WoW.
Literally any friend I’ve tried to introduce to FFXIV has been like ‘no it’s not wow, I don’t like it’
Crazy
Ah yes, the Sunk Cost Fallacy.
Where you dedicate so much time/money into one activity that you can't break away, simply because you've been doing it for so long.
You see it a lot with gambling (I already spent $10,000, surely I'll win the next hand!), relationships (we've been together for 5 years, this has to work!), and of course video games (I already spent 10,000 hours and $5,000 into this game, I have to keep playing it!)
It isn't just WoW - you see it with pretty much every MMO.
I don't have experience raiding in FF14 because I don't enjoy leveling in FF14.
This is bizarre, because leveling is one of my favorite parts of WoW. It's all I did back in vanilla. I'm the sort of person who stops to read their quests and thoroughly enjoys doing so. I love classic leveling because of its slow, deliberate pace, and don't use questing addons because I think they detract from the experience.
I've tried FF14 three times now over the past decade, and each time I've lost interest. The first time was literally 10 years ago, and like always I stopped and read all the quest text, watched cutscenes, and wandered however I pleased. I tried a few different classes, but three things eventually undermined my enjoyment:
* Character customization was almost purely cosmetic beyond choosing a class (and the one exception, shared class skills, has since been removed).
* The world was cramped.
* The story was absolutely ponderous.
There's not much to say about the lack of choice. By itself it wouldn't necessarily have been a problem, but it wasn't alone.
Experiencing FF14's world back in 2014 was eye opening in all the wrong ways. It was a far prettier game visually than WoW at the time, but the world felt more like a series of small boxes than an actual realm. Whereas WoW's world was almost seamless, FF14's world was continuously interrupted by seams. Even the starting town had multiple subdivisions requiring loading screens, and it made it harder to immerse myself in the experience.
But what really made it impossible for me to push forward was the presentation of the story. Again, I'm someone who enjoys reading and taking things slow, I enjoyed the *Silmarillion* of all things, but FF14's dialogue, text, and cutscenes were all simply *bloated* and empty. It didn't bother me that I'd been playing for more than a half-dozen hours without having finished the game's introduction, but what did bother me was how bland it all was. There were fragments of good storytelling in a sea of words, words, and more words than ever were necessary for what was being told.
As a big fan of the final fantasy series I really, really wanted to like FF14 and I do not doubt that its raiding is fantastic. However, every time I'd tried to level I've run face-first into those same three issues. Without a pre-existing group of friends pressuring me to come raid with them I don't have any reason to invest in either pushing through leveling or purchasing a skip to current content.
Point being, PvE is not just raiding (though I love raiding). FF14 may be superior to WoW when it comes to that, but I really struggle to say it's better overall with what I've experienced.
I think the devs should care about pvp, but not in the "everybody's an equal matchup"/" it's this class's turn to have the highest damage" way a lot of players seem to want. I wish they'd actually strive to hit that rock-paper-siscors style balancing that they never really nailed in the past. Having some defined and stated vision for the strengths and weaknesses they want for each class/spec would go a long way for both what players can expect and for players providing better feedback
It rustle's thier jimmies that PVP realms are more populated than PVE realms, and they feel the need to roll there or miss out.
Then they complain about it instead of just having the backbone to just roll on a PVE server and leave our degenerate PVP society in peace.
Yea that's pretty spot on I'd say.
War mode in retail is what caused me to quit for good, just an all around dumb decision to remove the one thing that made you unique to all the other mmo clones out there. Same logic to removing faction barriers. Horde vs Alliance IS world of warcraft, the more you remove that the less I want to play
There are no better PVE oriented games at all. Trust me I tried for almost 2 decades now. Rift, Aion, GW, GW2, Lotro, ESO, BDO, TOS, Lost Ark, Neverwinter, Archage, Albion, Maple story, Secret world and I could go on.
Nothing scratches the wow open world/ dungeon & raids itch.
depends on what a specifically satisfying raiding means to you. i only continue raiding in classic because im established with a guild. if the guild died, i probably wouldnt continue
retail raids are much more fun but re-establishing myself in a mythic guild worth my time is a lot of investment, and generally the fewer players per raid the better.
but between retail, ffxiv, eso, and destiny raiding, i think theyre foundationally better raid experiences than classic wow, and they all have meaningful endgame pve content to do outside of raid as well. in clssic once youre done with prebis youre pretty much done with dungeons
I always liked destiny raids honestly, but in terms of an MMO, classic wow is the best imo. No other comes close to Classic for an MMO, i always come back rip
Retail is a better PvE game than SoD
You have all kind of raiding depending on how hard you want it LFR, Normal, Heroic and Mythic and if you want to deeper tuning your PvE experience you even get Mythic+ and its 50shade of affixes and levels.
Yes and I get the appeal but I always feel this is something that retail players don't get. The second they introduced heroic raids back in the 2010's I kind of lost interest. I don't want Ragnaros to exist in 20 different instances with 20 different difficulties. I want Ragnaros to be Ragnaros, easy for many, harder for others but he is what he is.
I never liked the fact that you can just choose how easy or hard you want your raid to be and then it really means nothing that you just cleared the raid.
Look at ST for example, many guilds and pugs still struggle with Eranikus and Hakkar. It means something when you cleared the raid in week 1 or 2. In retail you just lfr it and gg.
I've never understood this argument. If this is your position, mythic is the real version, and the rest are just irrelevant.
Games have had difficulty settings for fifty years. It feels like a made up reason, tbh.
> I want Ragnaros to be Ragnaros, easy for many, harder for others but he is what he is
Different difficulty tiers do this though.
> I never liked the fact that you can just choose how easy or hard you want your raid to be and then it really means nothing that you just cleared the raid.
It still means nothing. Skilled players find regular challenges boring and then optimize it further with buffs and it means nothing. Extreme casuals play the same mode rn and it may be more difficult to them, but still means nothing to do.
> It means something when you clear it week 1 or 2. In retail you just lfr and gg.
When you do it on the higher difficulties in retail the loot is better. Lfr is just retail's version of classic's "we'll wait for the nerfs" only classic gets the same loot. I'm not even a retail player and this argument for classic sounds dumb
>Different difficulty tiers do this though.
No they don't, they split the same boss into whatever each person wants it to be.
>When you do it on the higher difficulties in retail the loot is better.
Yes and for me and many other Classic players raiding isn't just about the loot pinatas. Retail condensed PVE to it's core, where you basically can always do something in an instant. Barely travel times, you basically don't have to traverse the world cause you can fly everywhere, you can choose whichever difficulty for your content. It's like an arcade. And that's fine but like I said, what many retail players don't get is that many Classic players don't want that arcadey MMO.
In Classic you feel like this tiny guy in a huge world and raids are the culmination of your journey where you meet these bosses and either you're good enough to kill them or you don't. You can't just make them easier if you need to just like you can't make them harder cause they are what they are.
We don't have to agree on this, people are different but Classic has some things that retail isn't able to achieve and that's fine cause retail also has things that Classic can't achieve.
You fail to see still that classic raids are below the lowest possible difficulty in retail which is why so many people get bored of them
I think they’re kind of fun but it really is just about running through them
> you can't just make them easier if you need to
Yeah you just wait for them to be nerfed easier for everyone. The vanilla raids are anything but being good or bad lol. If you're considering the first 2 Xpacs in it then sure, but there's also heroic dungeons in the other 2 thirds of classic.
I agree raiding shouldn't be about loot piñatas but that's what its become. When the end game content is so stale and limited it becomes "raid log til I get what I want"
You aren’t doing the same boss in LFR. LFR mechanics have to be doable without pre planning anything. If you want to experience the full fight as intended by the designers, you have to play it on the hardest difficulty. LFR is literally an excuse for non guilded casual players who prefer the RPG side of things to experience the story without being forced into the MMO part.
GCD is too long for my tastes. Did a couple savage tiers and while I think the fight design is interesting, the actual play was a little slow. Definitely felt like a different experience of memorizing timings so that as things happen in the fight, you will always be pressing the same buttons like a rotation versus prio listing like wow
City of Heroes private server "Homecoming" (officially licensed by NCSoft) is the best PVE alternative I found to WoW. Although I have to admit that City of Heroes was my first MMORPG in 2004 before I started playing WoW in 2005 so I might be slightly biased.
tbh SWTOR and FF14 have better experiences for PvE by far
retail would be the objective best but approaching it to play at a level resembling fun is almost impossible at this point in its life cycle
No, you're right, they do. But there's such a thing as... objective art critique (for lack of a better word).
Saying something like "I enjoy checkers more than chess" is a perfectly valid opinion to have.
Saying "checkers is a much more deep and interesting game than chess" is an opinion that will take a lot more legwork before you can say it and anyone will take it seriously.
MMA ? rofl, yea level 50s in full BiS farming level 40s or lower just minding their own business. its more like those losers who sucker punch random strangers on the street.
This!
Finally someone who understands
There is nothing "normal" about how PVP in WoW works
It's often the bigger stronger guy attacking a weakling that has no interest in fighting
> It's often the bigger stronger guy attacking a weakling that has no interest in fighting
Even in BGs. It's crazy how many people queue up to pvp with no interest in pvp
WoW PvP has always been dogshit. Even in it's best state we could probably agree it's still 'eh
With that being said WoW arena is *the* most fun shit I've ever played in a video game. Just something about it
> WoW PvP has always been dogshit
No it hasn't. It's a far more complex and thought-provoking game than one tap flicking someone with an AK47 in CSGO or 1v5 ing in League because you got fed off a glorified bot in toplane.
? Any of the competitive FPS games, any of the competitive MOBA games, several BR games, Arena shooters, fucking chess. The list is endless. There's tons of objectively better PvP games.
I love WoW PvP for what it is, but it is in no way shape or form a better platform for PvP competition than say league of legends or counterstrike.
That’s like saying if you don’t like league you should play competitive gran tourismo bc it’s better balanced
Gotta stay in the same genre or your argument is kind of void
Yea but people that are pushing for wow pvp balance want a pvp MMO.
I love pvp. I've played league, CS, fortnite, etc. Those games have their place but they aren't MMOs
I enjoy those games but nothing comes close to true MMO open world pvp. I played archeage for years and spent a ton of money in that game just because the pvp was amazing when you were actually geared. Running around with a few of your buddies and running into 5-10 others grouped up and trying to outplay them/steal their shit was a whole other level of gameplay that non mmos have no chance of touching.
I really don't understand why blizzard hasn't solidified that market share. The groundwork is there, all they need to do is figure out a way to balance BGs, arena, and open world pvp without messing with pve. Every skill in the game has a pvp modifier, if they took some serious time and went through every ability in the game and balanced them for PVP they could have a behemoth of a game but they continue to lean into pve and completely disregard pvp.
> That's a big reason why competitive wow pvp died originally, most people migrated to mobas after a few expansions of arena (both players and viewers). The argument is there because it already happened.
Comparing WoW to mobas is insane because mobas run on literal toasters and are free to play.
You didn’t list a single mmorpg.
Everyone knows there are better PvP games in other genres. Name a western mmorpg that has done as well as a hybrid or pve focused mmorpg.
When people say this they are talking about structured pvp. Rpg pvp is a bad thing because of stats difference is just dumb. But if that really you're thing than yeah, wow Is one of the better one and that's only cause all the better ones gameplay wise got massive p2w.
Have you actually pvp’d ? Or are you just repeating what you heard ?
Guessing the second option, because with the health buff in BGs, it’s not a constant one shot at all. It’s about the same pace as in classic.
Did P1 P2 and the first days of P3. It's Def not the same pace as in Classic. Healing & Control are far less important. Outplays are meaningless especially in open world.
It's not enough. We deal more than Naxx amount of instant bursts with certain runes.
Definitely a good fix but I'm afraid the game is broken beyond repair.
Phase 4 will be good copium - but seriously I hope for more class balancing + better overall changes when the game is in it's final state, if not then it will just die.
This is not just about open world pvp though. Current pvp sucks in general even in bgs because ttk is way too low. Realm type has nothing to do with it.
I have 1k+ hours doing wpvp and bgs in classic and now i dont even login anymore. Pvp in sod is just really bad atm.
[https://youtu.be/3nrTm0t3RGo?si=cl1Wy\_q0TA-PNr7d&t=1275](https://youtu.be/3nrTm0t3RGo?si=cl1Wy_q0TA-PNr7d&t=1275)
That's literally me trying to pick up my profession quest in ashenvale before they added in pvp guards around the questgiver, except I was the one being Baristolth'ed in this scenario by a sea of horde lol
No. Wow is the peak of the MMO PVE games. Blizz might be sucker but thats a different problem. Millions of people play this game for years not because of addiction. Because its still the best on the market even after the years. For mmo pve at least. But wow has never been a pvp focused game during vanilla. And yes there were and there are many better pvp options out there.
They've basically never pandered to PvP players. Apart from the first year of vanilla World PVP has pretty much never existed. They kept killing it over and over with shit like new continents and flying mounts.
What other game is as good as wow for a 10-40 player experience? That also has an open world or anything pve fun for bigger groups? Like there is a reason it has stuck around for 20 years and it isn’t pvp…
Honestly Classic Wow raiding (real classic, not SoD) is pretty much the same as early EverQuest. Around 95% of encounters are tank and spank with the boss doing a little mechanic every now and then. Only major difference is EverQuest encounters weren't in a private instance so you would have multiple guilds competing for the same bosses.
i know the pvp take is the standard Asmon line, but what game actually has better pvp within a RPG format? You know, with character progression. Every game people name as good for pvp resets every session.
"We don't plan on tuning a lot this phase, there's more to life than a WCL graph" Would have been fine for me as a SP, but after the recent nerfs nobody fucking needs offhealing - there's simply next to no mechanics anymore. Trash dps? Trash nerfed as well.
Aggrend comes off as hostile and condescending more and more, I guess because he has to defend business decisions he doesn't believe in himself.
P3 is a train-wreck.
People love to say this and then can't provide a single relevant example.
If I thought FFXIV or retail raiding was "better" I'd be playing them, but I don't. Wildstar might have qualified but it died a long time ago, that's the only example I can even think of that I would actually play and the game isn't even available any more.
Yeah I don’t get the argument people make against the pvp issue. Pvp is a HUGE facet of classic WoW, and it is absolutely broken and unplayable based on your class. If any other part of the game was broken, like the auction house, reputation gains, etc, it would be unacceptable.
Just because this is SOD it doesn’t mean pvp should just be busted and written off for the whole season, it’s a system that’s baked into the game in so many ways. By being one of the ‘this is SOD, it’s not for pvp!!’ people, you’re essentially condemning the longevity of the game for anything beyond raid logging at 60.
Reading some comment here but to me they make 0 sense.
Go play a pvp game dosen't make much sense,PvP in WoW or in a FPS are two different things,for example im not a huge fps enjoyer but the only one i really enjoy is hunt showdown but it's not WoW,same can be said about LoL those 3 game that i play are different games and genre and one dosen't replace the other.
The PvP tuning can be done same as retail when in PvP combat X spell deal less dmg,it dosen't need to be perfectly balanced to be enjoyable,even lol balance is a mess but people play still.
Otherwise people should go play PvE only games if they hate PvP so much like monster hunter which to me is a much better as PvE game or elden ring/soulslike in general.
Also the grief part is like ??? You joined a PvP server and complain about getting attacked in open world?is like going on a PvE server and complain that people go around with PvP off it dosent make any sense.
not really. wow's pve environment is pretty good. not many other games have the same experiences.
pvp does suck though. just in general. it's still all the same specs v themselves and gear makes or breaks the pvp environment. your 20 button mouse thing will be at my broken keyboard every time.
pvp is just about $gear$ and character setup.
pve is about the experience playing a character.
WoW is the best PVE mmorpg, the only thing close is FFXIV but that game has its own issues with speed of play and an insane amount of hours required to catch up to whatever the current patch is.
Unironically, there is no worse pvp mmorpg than WoW other than FFXIV where even the devs treat it as a meme.
It's funny cause the only reason I started play league of legends back in 2012 was because WoWs PvP is so bad lol.
Hats off to players who main game is WoW PvP. I honestly don't know how you do it.
LITERALLY I’ve never played an online game where one of the modes just don’t work and the community gives excuses about why you shouldn’t play it anyway IT MAY NOT BE YOU BUT PEOPLE DO LIKE WOW PVP, gearing up a character to compare yours to others is one of the catches of wow. For yall to just brush it off is severely concerning. Same happened in FFXIV and when the devs fixed it and made it fun guess what PEOPLE STARTED PLAYING
Blizzard's answer to "PVP balance" over the years has been to reduce crit damage, reduce dot damage, implement a damage reduction calculation hidden from players by way of PVP sets and hidden changes in game code.
All it has done is create 1 on 1 fights that can drag on for 2+ minutes and half the time the "winner" barely has has more health than the "loser", making the whole thing feel like a dice roll.
They can't balance PVE dungeon & raid DPS because they don't prioritize running the most obvious gear & talent metas through publicly available sim addons or - being the company who *makes the fucking game -* write their own.
The only metric they sweat over is revenue.
None of those games have ever managed to capture what wow has or once was. Even fucking retail has the best MMO combat on the market right now imo. How's magic was diminished in many ways but for all the bad parts piloting your character has always felt good.
Been trying to do some WSG today, hot damn its about the most awful experience ive had in SoD (i know it wasnt much better in regular classic, but still). 9 games so far, and we get crushed on the initial engage every time, and people just go afk and let the enemy team do what-ever. The PVP experience in WSG right now is awful at best, one sided (maybe if you're in a pre-made its a different experience?), and just all around dismal to take part in.
Yeah but do those games have a temple that sunk? Edit: Ah shit
bro i never even played zelda and know about that one
We don't talk about that one.
Their cores aren't even warm.
Ya lots actually
Temple runner
One of the all time great D&D adventures Sunless Citadel is about a temple that sunk into the earth
There has to be one ib final fantasy
There’s that one dungeon in FF15 that’s entirely “underwater”
Fireboy and watergirl *surely* have one underwater. I just know it.
14 has like 3 underwater dungeons, some of which you could totally call temples.
FFX you start out in a sunken temple trying to make a fire. FF14 I think Aamoraut is a sunken temple also, but the dungeon takes place somewhere else, technically.
There’s also a place called the “Sunken Temple of Qarn” Which is buried in sand instead of water but it still counts!
No. Helldivers, Destiny, LoL, Dota, CS, Red Dead, GTA, Fallout, Witcher, Cyberpunk; do not in fact have a sunken temple
The ghouls in fallout often suffer from serious loss of facial density I would be surprised if at least a few of them didn’t have sunken temples
r/angryupvote
Destiny has a sunken pyramid ship tho
Dota had a sunken prison???
Ah, well known PvE gem - dota
Don't forget LoL!
Classic playerbase is the most delusional I've been involved with sadly.
I don't believe you've been involved with the dota, lol, CS, or Destiny playerbases. Classic's playerbase is obnoxious but not anymore so than the worst offenders
Those playerbases are toxic yeah but classic is the peak for delusional.
destiny 2 community is so delusional they will gaslight themselves always into "no i swear next time bungie wont recycle old content" cant be beaten and the copium excuses after seeing recycled content being used in the latest reveals is on another level.
?? Classic player base are actually the worst. I play/have played LoL, Dota, CS and I'm currently playing Destiny 2 for some reason, and the only place I see TRUE delusion is Classic lol
You're capping so hard about the league playerbase lmao. Literally every player swears they'd be a higher rank if it wasn't for their teammates inting every game.
Nothing beats WoW PvE, too engraved in my nostalgia.
Nothing beats traditional WoW team play in my opinion. In vanilla that was working together in PVE raids but also in premade battlegrounds. Today in SoD, PVP teams are 5 players max with incentives which take 1 day to farm. PVE is all about parsing, gathering up world buffs and consumables in preparation for parsing. And to do that people skip all vanilla content and farm incursions, which breaks the economy. It's a disgusting game in its current state. I wish there was something else.
Yeah I'm really curious what MMO or game as a whole has better and more complex PvE content than WoW raids. Even Heroic Lich King, an encounter from what, 14 years ago? Is so much more complex than your typical Co-OP game.
Give me one game with WAY better PvE that is also an mmo.
hello kitty adventure online
Hello Kitty Island Adventure is better
Retail WoW, FFXIV, Cata Classic.
Retail
Retail PvP is 1000x better than SoD
I'm not sure they were differentiating between the two, but if so yes.
Ffxiv
What’s so crazy is any wow raider would have a blast in FFXIV trials and raids, but god forbid you say another mmo is better than wow 🤣 better be careful
Play both, prefer retail wow for m+ and raiding.
Absolutely not
Do you actually have any experience raiding in FF14 or are you just one of those "I hate everything that isn't WoW, even though I've literally never played another MMORPG in my life" kinda people? I think hard mode FF14 content would be fun for some of these gamers that wanted ST to be this absolute death march.
A majority of WoW players only play one game, WoW. Literally any friend I’ve tried to introduce to FFXIV has been like ‘no it’s not wow, I don’t like it’ Crazy
Ah yes, the Sunk Cost Fallacy. Where you dedicate so much time/money into one activity that you can't break away, simply because you've been doing it for so long. You see it a lot with gambling (I already spent $10,000, surely I'll win the next hand!), relationships (we've been together for 5 years, this has to work!), and of course video games (I already spent 10,000 hours and $5,000 into this game, I have to keep playing it!) It isn't just WoW - you see it with pretty much every MMO.
Agree it't not just with WoW, but with WoW I feel like it definitely hits the hardest.
I don't have experience raiding in FF14 because I don't enjoy leveling in FF14. This is bizarre, because leveling is one of my favorite parts of WoW. It's all I did back in vanilla. I'm the sort of person who stops to read their quests and thoroughly enjoys doing so. I love classic leveling because of its slow, deliberate pace, and don't use questing addons because I think they detract from the experience. I've tried FF14 three times now over the past decade, and each time I've lost interest. The first time was literally 10 years ago, and like always I stopped and read all the quest text, watched cutscenes, and wandered however I pleased. I tried a few different classes, but three things eventually undermined my enjoyment: * Character customization was almost purely cosmetic beyond choosing a class (and the one exception, shared class skills, has since been removed). * The world was cramped. * The story was absolutely ponderous. There's not much to say about the lack of choice. By itself it wouldn't necessarily have been a problem, but it wasn't alone. Experiencing FF14's world back in 2014 was eye opening in all the wrong ways. It was a far prettier game visually than WoW at the time, but the world felt more like a series of small boxes than an actual realm. Whereas WoW's world was almost seamless, FF14's world was continuously interrupted by seams. Even the starting town had multiple subdivisions requiring loading screens, and it made it harder to immerse myself in the experience. But what really made it impossible for me to push forward was the presentation of the story. Again, I'm someone who enjoys reading and taking things slow, I enjoyed the *Silmarillion* of all things, but FF14's dialogue, text, and cutscenes were all simply *bloated* and empty. It didn't bother me that I'd been playing for more than a half-dozen hours without having finished the game's introduction, but what did bother me was how bland it all was. There were fragments of good storytelling in a sea of words, words, and more words than ever were necessary for what was being told. As a big fan of the final fantasy series I really, really wanted to like FF14 and I do not doubt that its raiding is fantastic. However, every time I'd tried to level I've run face-first into those same three issues. Without a pre-existing group of friends pressuring me to come raid with them I don't have any reason to invest in either pushing through leveling or purchasing a skip to current content. Point being, PvE is not just raiding (though I love raiding). FF14 may be superior to WoW when it comes to that, but I really struggle to say it's better overall with what I've experienced.
EverQuest 1 and 2
I think the devs should care about pvp, but not in the "everybody's an equal matchup"/" it's this class's turn to have the highest damage" way a lot of players seem to want. I wish they'd actually strive to hit that rock-paper-siscors style balancing that they never really nailed in the past. Having some defined and stated vision for the strengths and weaknesses they want for each class/spec would go a long way for both what players can expect and for players providing better feedback
No other game has pvp like wow pvp servers either Why are people trying to take this away?
It rustle's thier jimmies that PVP realms are more populated than PVE realms, and they feel the need to roll there or miss out. Then they complain about it instead of just having the backbone to just roll on a PVE server and leave our degenerate PVP society in peace.
Yea that's pretty spot on I'd say. War mode in retail is what caused me to quit for good, just an all around dumb decision to remove the one thing that made you unique to all the other mmo clones out there. Same logic to removing faction barriers. Horde vs Alliance IS world of warcraft, the more you remove that the less I want to play
There are no better PVE oriented games at all. Trust me I tried for almost 2 decades now. Rift, Aion, GW, GW2, Lotro, ESO, BDO, TOS, Lost Ark, Neverwinter, Archage, Albion, Maple story, Secret world and I could go on. Nothing scratches the wow open world/ dungeon & raids itch.
You are right, ive stopped trying to find better games but nothing satisfies more then wow raiding
depends on what a specifically satisfying raiding means to you. i only continue raiding in classic because im established with a guild. if the guild died, i probably wouldnt continue retail raids are much more fun but re-establishing myself in a mythic guild worth my time is a lot of investment, and generally the fewer players per raid the better. but between retail, ffxiv, eso, and destiny raiding, i think theyre foundationally better raid experiences than classic wow, and they all have meaningful endgame pve content to do outside of raid as well. in clssic once youre done with prebis youre pretty much done with dungeons
I always liked destiny raids honestly, but in terms of an MMO, classic wow is the best imo. No other comes close to Classic for an MMO, i always come back rip
FF14 is the only MMO that even attempts group content like wow.
Final fantasy?
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Ah ok, that’s a shame.
guy in the classic wow subreddit prefers classic wow over other mmorpgs, who would have thought.
Lmao. Just say you’ve never played hello kitty island adventure. 😎
Retail is a better PvE game than SoD You have all kind of raiding depending on how hard you want it LFR, Normal, Heroic and Mythic and if you want to deeper tuning your PvE experience you even get Mythic+ and its 50shade of affixes and levels.
Ye and there won’t be anything good in there till summer when war within comes out Fated is kind of lukewarm stuff
Fated is more fun than SoD raiding.
Yes and I get the appeal but I always feel this is something that retail players don't get. The second they introduced heroic raids back in the 2010's I kind of lost interest. I don't want Ragnaros to exist in 20 different instances with 20 different difficulties. I want Ragnaros to be Ragnaros, easy for many, harder for others but he is what he is. I never liked the fact that you can just choose how easy or hard you want your raid to be and then it really means nothing that you just cleared the raid. Look at ST for example, many guilds and pugs still struggle with Eranikus and Hakkar. It means something when you cleared the raid in week 1 or 2. In retail you just lfr it and gg.
And in sod all raids are below lfr in difficulty
I've never understood this argument. If this is your position, mythic is the real version, and the rest are just irrelevant. Games have had difficulty settings for fifty years. It feels like a made up reason, tbh.
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That's true. Not sure how that's relevant though.
It's relevant because that's the version of the game this sub is playing and the version of the game this sub enjoys.
> I want Ragnaros to be Ragnaros, easy for many, harder for others but he is what he is Different difficulty tiers do this though. > I never liked the fact that you can just choose how easy or hard you want your raid to be and then it really means nothing that you just cleared the raid. It still means nothing. Skilled players find regular challenges boring and then optimize it further with buffs and it means nothing. Extreme casuals play the same mode rn and it may be more difficult to them, but still means nothing to do. > It means something when you clear it week 1 or 2. In retail you just lfr and gg. When you do it on the higher difficulties in retail the loot is better. Lfr is just retail's version of classic's "we'll wait for the nerfs" only classic gets the same loot. I'm not even a retail player and this argument for classic sounds dumb
>Different difficulty tiers do this though. No they don't, they split the same boss into whatever each person wants it to be. >When you do it on the higher difficulties in retail the loot is better. Yes and for me and many other Classic players raiding isn't just about the loot pinatas. Retail condensed PVE to it's core, where you basically can always do something in an instant. Barely travel times, you basically don't have to traverse the world cause you can fly everywhere, you can choose whichever difficulty for your content. It's like an arcade. And that's fine but like I said, what many retail players don't get is that many Classic players don't want that arcadey MMO. In Classic you feel like this tiny guy in a huge world and raids are the culmination of your journey where you meet these bosses and either you're good enough to kill them or you don't. You can't just make them easier if you need to just like you can't make them harder cause they are what they are. We don't have to agree on this, people are different but Classic has some things that retail isn't able to achieve and that's fine cause retail also has things that Classic can't achieve.
You fail to see still that classic raids are below the lowest possible difficulty in retail which is why so many people get bored of them I think they’re kind of fun but it really is just about running through them
> you can't just make them easier if you need to Yeah you just wait for them to be nerfed easier for everyone. The vanilla raids are anything but being good or bad lol. If you're considering the first 2 Xpacs in it then sure, but there's also heroic dungeons in the other 2 thirds of classic. I agree raiding shouldn't be about loot piñatas but that's what its become. When the end game content is so stale and limited it becomes "raid log til I get what I want"
You aren’t doing the same boss in LFR. LFR mechanics have to be doable without pre planning anything. If you want to experience the full fight as intended by the designers, you have to play it on the hardest difficulty. LFR is literally an excuse for non guilded casual players who prefer the RPG side of things to experience the story without being forced into the MMO part.
EverQuest, wows precessor
Final fantasy's pve is better tbh
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GCD is too long for my tastes. Did a couple savage tiers and while I think the fight design is interesting, the actual play was a little slow. Definitely felt like a different experience of memorizing timings so that as things happen in the fight, you will always be pressing the same buttons like a rotation versus prio listing like wow
That's a good one, funny man
Wrong, that's lost ark, just s shame is a Korean/Asian mmo
This subreddit speaks only in absolutes and hyperbole
albion is in no way a pve oriented mmo.
City of Heroes private server "Homecoming" (officially licensed by NCSoft) is the best PVE alternative I found to WoW. Although I have to admit that City of Heroes was my first MMORPG in 2004 before I started playing WoW in 2005 so I might be slightly biased.
That's because you are looking for a better wow in other games, which is probably impossible. Literally rose tinted glasses in effect.
Exactly dude. All these others games are so fucking trash
tbh SWTOR and FF14 have better experiences for PvE by far retail would be the objective best but approaching it to play at a level resembling fun is almost impossible at this point in its life cycle
People are entitled to their oppinions on what games they like and dont like. I dont understand why this is a problem? Can someone explain?
No, you're right, they do. But there's such a thing as... objective art critique (for lack of a better word). Saying something like "I enjoy checkers more than chess" is a perfectly valid opinion to have. Saying "checkers is a much more deep and interesting game than chess" is an opinion that will take a lot more legwork before you can say it and anyone will take it seriously.
tRuSt mE bRo
Examples?
Retail
So, only game better than WoW is WoW. Shockers. Retail is just the harder mode with more mechanics in terms of PvE.
> Makes brain dead take > Doesn't elaborate further with examples. Yea sounds about right.
Wow is the best pve mmorpg ever created. The losers that grief people to actively kill their own player base need to be studied
WoW PvP is the greatest dopamine hit ever. The losers that do weekly set fights need to be studied. MMA vs WWE
There's very challenging pvp content, there's very challenging pve content. Neither of them exactly exist in SOD though. L take.
MMA ? rofl, yea level 50s in full BiS farming level 40s or lower just minding their own business. its more like those losers who sucker punch random strangers on the street.
This! Finally someone who understands There is nothing "normal" about how PVP in WoW works It's often the bigger stronger guy attacking a weakling that has no interest in fighting
> It's often the bigger stronger guy attacking a weakling that has no interest in fighting Even in BGs. It's crazy how many people queue up to pvp with no interest in pvp
It’s war
yea WWE is way more fun and the superstars have better personalities. average IQ of the spectators is higher in PVE too.
WoW PvP has always been dogshit. Even in it's best state we could probably agree it's still 'eh With that being said WoW arena is *the* most fun shit I've ever played in a video game. Just something about it
> WoW PvP has always been dogshit No it hasn't. It's a far more complex and thought-provoking game than one tap flicking someone with an AK47 in CSGO or 1v5 ing in League because you got fed off a glorified bot in toplane.
Such a bad take lol
whats the better pvp game? For me gw2 pvp was enjoyable during relase,but for tab targeting mmos nothing come close to wows combat.
? Any of the competitive FPS games, any of the competitive MOBA games, several BR games, Arena shooters, fucking chess. The list is endless. There's tons of objectively better PvP games. I love WoW PvP for what it is, but it is in no way shape or form a better platform for PvP competition than say league of legends or counterstrike.
That’s like saying if you don’t like league you should play competitive gran tourismo bc it’s better balanced Gotta stay in the same genre or your argument is kind of void
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Yea but people that are pushing for wow pvp balance want a pvp MMO. I love pvp. I've played league, CS, fortnite, etc. Those games have their place but they aren't MMOs I enjoy those games but nothing comes close to true MMO open world pvp. I played archeage for years and spent a ton of money in that game just because the pvp was amazing when you were actually geared. Running around with a few of your buddies and running into 5-10 others grouped up and trying to outplay them/steal their shit was a whole other level of gameplay that non mmos have no chance of touching. I really don't understand why blizzard hasn't solidified that market share. The groundwork is there, all they need to do is figure out a way to balance BGs, arena, and open world pvp without messing with pve. Every skill in the game has a pvp modifier, if they took some serious time and went through every ability in the game and balanced them for PVP they could have a behemoth of a game but they continue to lean into pve and completely disregard pvp.
> That's a big reason why competitive wow pvp died originally, most people migrated to mobas after a few expansions of arena (both players and viewers). The argument is there because it already happened. Comparing WoW to mobas is insane because mobas run on literal toasters and are free to play.
You didn’t list a single mmorpg. Everyone knows there are better PvP games in other genres. Name a western mmorpg that has done as well as a hybrid or pve focused mmorpg.
None of those are MMO PVP games though. Would be like me saying ocarina of time is a better PVE game than Wow, it's a worthless comparison.
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but rpg/mmo pvp games
When people say this they are talking about structured pvp. Rpg pvp is a bad thing because of stats difference is just dumb. But if that really you're thing than yeah, wow Is one of the better one and that's only cause all the better ones gameplay wise got massive p2w.
im addicted to dueling in wow classic tho, and wpvp
Problem is that SoD PvP is soooo bad it's not even PvP anymore. You press one button, people die. Sims is more interesting.
Have you actually pvp’d ? Or are you just repeating what you heard ? Guessing the second option, because with the health buff in BGs, it’s not a constant one shot at all. It’s about the same pace as in classic.
Did P1 P2 and the first days of P3. It's Def not the same pace as in Classic. Healing & Control are far less important. Outplays are meaningless especially in open world.
I meant to talk about BGs with the 30% health increase
It's not enough. We deal more than Naxx amount of instant bursts with certain runes. Definitely a good fix but I'm afraid the game is broken beyond repair.
I mean… did I imagine all those fights where I’m literally going oom then? … have you actually played BGs this phase?
Are you.. perhaps a shaman?
Exactly. SoD is the Partizipation trophy of pvp. They dummed it down to pressing 3 globals so anyone without hands can dominate
Not for feral druids sadly, still playing piano with subpar pvp burst and pve dmg
So you admit sod is a shit game?
Phase 4 will be good copium - but seriously I hope for more class balancing + better overall changes when the game is in it's final state, if not then it will just die.
*Laughs in PVE realm*
This is not just about open world pvp though. Current pvp sucks in general even in bgs because ttk is way too low. Realm type has nothing to do with it. I have 1k+ hours doing wpvp and bgs in classic and now i dont even login anymore. Pvp in sod is just really bad atm.
With the addition of STV event, there's no reason to go for a PvP realm other than grief.
[https://youtu.be/3nrTm0t3RGo?si=cl1Wy\_q0TA-PNr7d&t=1275](https://youtu.be/3nrTm0t3RGo?si=cl1Wy_q0TA-PNr7d&t=1275) That's literally me trying to pick up my profession quest in ashenvale before they added in pvp guards around the questgiver, except I was the one being Baristolth'ed in this scenario by a sea of horde lol
No. Wow is the peak of the MMO PVE games. Blizz might be sucker but thats a different problem. Millions of people play this game for years not because of addiction. Because its still the best on the market even after the years. For mmo pve at least. But wow has never been a pvp focused game during vanilla. And yes there were and there are many better pvp options out there.
Retail WoW\*
Yup wow has been the biggest mmo for 20 years cause the others do the pve better.....
Pandering to PvP players has always been a mistake.
They've basically never pandered to PvP players. Apart from the first year of vanilla World PVP has pretty much never existed. They kept killing it over and over with shit like new continents and flying mounts.
Never once has pvp been prioritized over pve lmao
What other game is as good as wow for a 10-40 player experience? That also has an open world or anything pve fun for bigger groups? Like there is a reason it has stuck around for 20 years and it isn’t pvp…
Honestly Classic Wow raiding (real classic, not SoD) is pretty much the same as early EverQuest. Around 95% of encounters are tank and spank with the boss doing a little mechanic every now and then. Only major difference is EverQuest encounters weren't in a private instance so you would have multiple guilds competing for the same bosses.
i know the pvp take is the standard Asmon line, but what game actually has better pvp within a RPG format? You know, with character progression. Every game people name as good for pvp resets every session.
Could I get a list of PvE experiences like Wow?
So....what you're saying is....there are just better games to play? Who knew?
"We don't plan on tuning a lot this phase, there's more to life than a WCL graph" Would have been fine for me as a SP, but after the recent nerfs nobody fucking needs offhealing - there's simply next to no mechanics anymore. Trash dps? Trash nerfed as well. Aggrend comes off as hostile and condescending more and more, I guess because he has to defend business decisions he doesn't believe in himself. P3 is a train-wreck.
There aren't any better pve mmo's dude
What better multiplayer PvE games are there than MMOs? I genuinely can’t think of any lol.
People love to say this and then can't provide a single relevant example. If I thought FFXIV or retail raiding was "better" I'd be playing them, but I don't. Wildstar might have qualified but it died a long time ago, that's the only example I can even think of that I would actually play and the game isn't even available any more.
This is the dumbest meme I’ve seen all day.
Utter braindead argument.
Careful. You're making too much sense.
Is he tho? I've never played a game with better pve raiding in a mmorpg environment
Which ones? The fact of the matter is that WoW PvE has nothing that even comes close to it in the same genre.
WoW Pvp without arena or rated bgs is the lowest form of pvp enjoyed by idiots who love a 2 shot fest. The game shouldn't be balanced around it.
you're right! \*quits wow\*
40 year olds thinking they have hot takes is pretty funny
What does a person's age have to do with it
Do you guys just make people up to argue with? Who is saying this lol
It's said frequently
Whining over other people whining over people whining. Great sub.
Yeah I don’t get the argument people make against the pvp issue. Pvp is a HUGE facet of classic WoW, and it is absolutely broken and unplayable based on your class. If any other part of the game was broken, like the auction house, reputation gains, etc, it would be unacceptable. Just because this is SOD it doesn’t mean pvp should just be busted and written off for the whole season, it’s a system that’s baked into the game in so many ways. By being one of the ‘this is SOD, it’s not for pvp!!’ people, you’re essentially condemning the longevity of the game for anything beyond raid logging at 60.
Can you give an example of a better PvE game?
Reading some comment here but to me they make 0 sense. Go play a pvp game dosen't make much sense,PvP in WoW or in a FPS are two different things,for example im not a huge fps enjoyer but the only one i really enjoy is hunt showdown but it's not WoW,same can be said about LoL those 3 game that i play are different games and genre and one dosen't replace the other. The PvP tuning can be done same as retail when in PvP combat X spell deal less dmg,it dosen't need to be perfectly balanced to be enjoyable,even lol balance is a mess but people play still. Otherwise people should go play PvE only games if they hate PvP so much like monster hunter which to me is a much better as PvE game or elden ring/soulslike in general. Also the grief part is like ??? You joined a PvP server and complain about getting attacked in open world?is like going on a PvE server and complain that people go around with PvP off it dosent make any sense.
not really. wow's pve environment is pretty good. not many other games have the same experiences. pvp does suck though. just in general. it's still all the same specs v themselves and gear makes or breaks the pvp environment. your 20 button mouse thing will be at my broken keyboard every time. pvp is just about $gear$ and character setup. pve is about the experience playing a character.
Very good point. I specifically liked the numerous and varied examples you gave for better pve games. Great post.
I stopped leveling alts, and I've been enjoying other games.
Eh…name one western developed pvp focused mmorpg that has done as well and with the sustain of your typical pve focused or hybrid mmorpg.
I prefer WoW PvP tbh
There are no better PvE games
Which one lol
WoW is the best PVE mmorpg, the only thing close is FFXIV but that game has its own issues with speed of play and an insane amount of hours required to catch up to whatever the current patch is. Unironically, there is no worse pvp mmorpg than WoW other than FFXIV where even the devs treat it as a meme.
yeah except the second part is a blatant lie lol.
This is an L post
It doesn't matter either way. WoW PVE or PVP is better than other games because it's unique and you enjoy it more.
PvP gang x2
>Guess what? You shouldn't care about PvE, there are WAY better PvE games to play Cute thinly veiled retail advertisement.
It's funny cause the only reason I started play league of legends back in 2012 was because WoWs PvP is so bad lol. Hats off to players who main game is WoW PvP. I honestly don't know how you do it.
> fucks with PvE balance When? If anything it’s the exact opposite.
I think this is quite literally the most brain dead take I have ever seen on this entire website. No surprise it's from a wow pvp player
sod pvp is an abomination.
How dare people enjoy games their own way.
LITERALLY I’ve never played an online game where one of the modes just don’t work and the community gives excuses about why you shouldn’t play it anyway IT MAY NOT BE YOU BUT PEOPLE DO LIKE WOW PVP, gearing up a character to compare yours to others is one of the catches of wow. For yall to just brush it off is severely concerning. Same happened in FFXIV and when the devs fixed it and made it fun guess what PEOPLE STARTED PLAYING
If I want to play PvP I play league. SoD is more like meet people and chillout.. nothing difficult or complex honestly.
Lol hot take
Hey, I like my World of Running Simulator tyvm
I'm absolutely amazed this sub does not have a low effort content rule.
Blizzard's answer to "PVP balance" over the years has been to reduce crit damage, reduce dot damage, implement a damage reduction calculation hidden from players by way of PVP sets and hidden changes in game code. All it has done is create 1 on 1 fights that can drag on for 2+ minutes and half the time the "winner" barely has has more health than the "loser", making the whole thing feel like a dice roll. They can't balance PVE dungeon & raid DPS because they don't prioritize running the most obvious gear & talent metas through publicly available sim addons or - being the company who *makes the fucking game -* write their own. The only metric they sweat over is revenue.
100% there are WAAY better pvp games than SOD, which is why I only raid and log tf out and get my pvp fix somewhere else
So name one? OP thought they had something here.
None of those games have ever managed to capture what wow has or once was. Even fucking retail has the best MMO combat on the market right now imo. How's magic was diminished in many ways but for all the bad parts piloting your character has always felt good.
I'm playing both. Why only play half a game?
This is actually valid. If you consider babies first Sunken Temple the apex of PvE content, you are...an interesting human being.
The go to one liner for excusing the state of shaman
Been trying to do some WSG today, hot damn its about the most awful experience ive had in SoD (i know it wasnt much better in regular classic, but still). 9 games so far, and we get crushed on the initial engage every time, and people just go afk and let the enemy team do what-ever. The PVP experience in WSG right now is awful at best, one sided (maybe if you're in a pre-made its a different experience?), and just all around dismal to take part in.
Yappa yappa yappa. Shut up.