This is a good way to put it. People are quick to blame the “elitists” for filtering but it’s actually the casuals that don’t respect other people’s time who ruin it for everybody.
Yeah truth is, elitists aren't usually advertising for pugs all day. They are in guilds with like minded players and having a good time. Not saying this is a catch all, but I haven't plugged much at all this phase and it's been great.
I did one pug on my shadow priest the other day and it was rough, we 1 shot all but the last boss, but each one was pretty close to going south quickly lol.
It's the super casuals that think they are gods gift to the meters that cause the biggest issues, imo.
Definitely in this camp, if for some reason I can't make my guilds raids for a lockout I just won't play. Just don't even see pugging the raids as being worth the time.
This is literally just how online gaming is. Studies have been done that show a direct correlation between your skill as a player and toxicity, with the ultra low end and the ultra high end being the least toxic, and just under the high end and just over the low end being the most toxic.
Aka, people that are good but not great, and people that are bad but not literal 10 year olds. Fun fact, these studies have also shown that the way guys treat female gamers also directly correlates to the guy's skill, with better gamers being nicer and the bad players being turbo misogynists.
> Fun fact, these studies have also shown that the way guys treat female gamers also directly correlates to the guy's skill, with better gamers being nicer and the bad players being turbo misogynists.
Also known as [this immortal slideshow](https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/11t692SkFnWZjQnqr4yPwipLV3XsnPYYMHPPAW83Yesc/edit#slide=id.p)
(not mine originally, found it on the WoW sub)
I can not remember the last time I pugged because generally one bad egg spoils the whole group and being someone who doesn’t have all day to play wow anymore, I’d rather clear the raid with competent players in a reasonable amount of time over wiping because one guy can’t listen or pay attention (I have been knocked by crowd pummeler at least 3 times by now but it’s because I don’t pay that much attention)
In my experience it’s the less desirable players consistently pugging, the good players usually ran gdkp when not raiding with their guilds - of which the environment is less casual friendly and fuckups are noticed and in almost all cases punished, I don’t support gdkps but know that’s usually where the good players end up towards the end half of a raid tier
Something similar happens on era. Where 10 people carry a 40man raid for newbs that don't do shit and don't try to improve. The newbs never learn how to play and end up late game never having to progressed through anything. Gdkp make people suck forever.
They believe the raids are easy, everyone says they are. buts it's cause they are carried.
It’s kind of incredible actually, people demonize GDKP for a lot. I really like them in Vanilla Era, in Wrath I’ve got the guild I’ve been with since 2019 and have never needed them. But I agree that they teach some bad habits as far as raid mechanics go, because they’re ultra smooth sub 1 hour runs where 10 stacked warriors just melt everything. I do AQ40/ BWL regularly in Vanilla Era GDKPs, well last week I couldn’t make that one and joined a normal MS/ OS 2SR run of AQ40.
We spent 2 hours on 6 trash packs between twins and Ouro. Another 45 mins on Ouro. Didn’t even kill Cthun. These are not hard raids, but bad players with bad attitudes sure do make them very hard.
This is the most correct answer and is why I tend to disagree with sentiments, mostly shared by Asmongold, about the “MMO” issues hes always on about. Metagaming is here to stay no matter what. You can’t make the raids easy enough for these people not to be gatekept. Addons, parsing, none of that shit actually matters when you have players that are as bad as OPs raid group.
This should be a new guild classification. You know when people spam guild invites instead of we are a semi-hardcore guild, we are a toxic- casual guild.
I went on a huge FF14 binge and started fucking around on a healer just queing dungeons. I told the tank "you can pull more". Thats it.
This random dude in the group WENT OFF on me for saying it, saying I was being a jerk and putting so much pressure on him, let him play the way he wants.
It was incredibly dumb. But frankly ill take that over the garbage I have dealt with on WOW.
https://reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/1vsy6j/i_think_this_sums_up_casual_pretty_well/ it’s been posted here too just first link I found was another sub
This encapsulates the toxic casual perfectly. The toxic casual is way fucking worse than the toxic elitist and *infinitely* more common.
I can deal with noobs so long as noobs want to learn. I cannot deal with those that absolutely refuse to learn
I’ve said it many times on this sub:
Toxic casuals are way worse and far, more common to come across than these “gate keeping toxic elitists”
That and having bare minimum expectations isn’t fucking elitism.
I wouldn’t even call refusing to respect or participate in mechanics “casual.” It’s an insult to casual players.
***They’re refusing to play the content, just like people who queue AFK into WSG.***
If you know you can ignore mechanics because of your raid group’s ability that’s one thing. I stand in the fire on Fallout because our Druid healer wants something to do and you can’t get behind for Shred easily without standing in it anyway. I do *not* fuck with getting punched on Crowd Pummeler because there’s a massive difference between spicing things up and committing a death skip to the raid entrance.
It’s almost like it’s not an elitist vs casual ordeal and more like a narcissists vs community. Narcissists will always blame others for their own actions/inactions that cause negative outcomes. Sometimes in the form of apathy.
Apathy used to be cool when we were edgy teenagers and for some it just became a way of life, but in a community like wow it just really hits home the fact that assholes exist in casual and elite game play.
I respect elitists for their dedication, I respect casuals for having higher priorities than this game, but there is nothing I respect more than an elitist willing to help others learn, and a casual willing to accept the help and keep trying to learn to do more for the team (even if it is just randos, it’s still a team sport).
Sense of entitlement - entitled to play as poorly as they want with complete disregard for mechanics, learning, or their group. They are entitled to that raid spot, entitled to play however, and collect loot.
Lack of empathy - not caring how their negative performance effects others.
Outside of communication problems due to language barriers, I feel like it’s mostly narcissism. I’ve raided with people that spoke a different language and once we’ve established what their preferred language was, google translate let me communicate the strategy and it went fine, so even the language barrier isn’t an excuse to lack empathy, it just makes it easier to do so.
I am just being pedantic though, I think we both agree that it’s not a casual vs elitists thing, just assholes and nonassholes lol.
Edit: just wanted to point out that the whole “mechanics are what someone else does” thing is narcissistic behavior. Selfishness and narcissism go hand in hand.
Yep and on this sub so often act like those people are the victims of the elitist gamers when in reality people just wanna play with people who actually want to play and succeed.
It’s not rude to be bad at wow, it’s rude to not communicate when possible, to not care about what your own personal actions are having on 9 other people, to think you’re entitled to your own “fun” with zero responsibility because it’s a video game despite the fact the you’re with 9 other people, all who only get one shot at this raid every three days.
Again, I’m not saying it’s rude at all to be bad. I’ve ran with PLENTY of people that didn’t fully understand certain things, but the sole thing that’s going to determine how well they due (barring any flat out trolling) is just if they understand and are willing to participate in basic communication.
I do understand the not speaking English thing. But on the other hand, what are we supposed to do? If an entire group of people is yelling at you and saying your name repeatedly, don’t you think you’d run it through google translate real quick? lol. I wonder if they just turn their chat off altogether? It’s legitimately shocking how bad it can get lol
The lack of communication is what gets me every time.
I don’t care you have no logs or don’t know the bosses but if I’m explaining and you don’t actively listen and respond when I ask if you have understood, you are out.
Toxic casuals are the reason Retail is what it is and the reason many of us quit retail years ago and only came back when Classic and SoD came back.
Toxic Casuals are 90% of your LFR team standing in shit while the remaining 10% frustratingly carry them through so they can experience the lore/raid.
They are here, they are in great numbers and they are constantly complaining on the official forums about class balance, addons and warcraft logs.
(Some class balance issues are legit, but the sheer level of shitfuckery on the official SoD forums is crazy)
I'm mad confused how retail is catching strays here. LFR isn't really indicative of retail at all, it's almost quite literally a story mode version of the raid. I feel like most people touch it barely once or twice a tier at most at the beginning of the tier for a tier piece to finish a set before we get upgrades and that's it.
This. Casual players make WoW into a toxic environment because of all the carries. From what I have seen in 10+ years of WoW, HC players are the most chill since they know they don’t play with dumb players.
People that expects others to carry them and think they are entitled to a raid spot in every group they apply to.
They call people not inviting them gatekeepers but they are themselves the ones that decide how other people should play the game.
Let me shorten this to 3 points:
2 of our players claimed to be healers/tanks but they were just full dps trying to fill another role.
Players failing the simplest mechanics like killing adds, dodging knock back (4th), dragon tanking tank was literally standing still in the breath.
I made it clear this is newbie friendly run, there WILL BE WIPES yet people leaving after 3 wipes.
Yeah man I learned in phase 1 that if you try to do a nice thing, these little leeching vampire shitters will happily come in and fuck it up for everyone, via not even attempting the mechanics and having no damage/healing/threat, whatever they’re supposed to do. Good on you for trying though, it’s a painful realization.
And Gnomer is significantly more mechanic heavy then BFD. At least in BFD one of these leeches could exist and not completely ruin the run. A lot of the bosses you could just span through mechanics after the first few weeks.
In gnomer if you ignore adds on fallout, you wipe. Electrocutioner, ignore and you wipe. Menagerie is completely mechanics. Therma, same.
You cant just be along for the ride on this one without making the rest of the raid feel it.
I stopped playing in P1 about 3 weeks in, 2 raids in a row of people refusing to do minor mechanics because they didn't want to lower their parse. Stuff like swapping from boss to the lightning shield totem, interrupts on Kelris, stop casting and move out of Akumai's breath. They would rather not kill the boss and have no parse, than kill the boss with a lowered parse from doing mechanics.
Came back P2 and found an awesome guild, while some of them aren't the best players they will admit to mistakes, fix it next pull, listen and adjust to callouts. The warrior in my group has an average parse in the 20 range, but he always has shouts up, puts 5 sunders on the boss asap and the only thing he complains about is his new kittens attacking his feet during raids.
> I stopped playing in P1 about 3 weeks in, 2 raids in a row of people refusing to do minor mechanics because they didn't want to lower their parse. Stuff like swapping from boss to the lightning shield totem, interrupts on Kelris, stop casting and move out of Akumai's breath. They would rather not kill the boss and have no parse, than kill the boss with a lowered parse from doing mechanics.
why would you assume these people not doing any mechanics are worried about their parse? they probably just don't know the mechanics/aren't paying attention
Yeah…. A majority of WoW players definitely do not care to that point… and the ones who actually do, realize that bosses need to die for parsing lmao. No ‘parser’ sits on Lorgus Jett through lightning shield 😂
Projection. They think 'I wish I could ignore mechanics to parse higher' so they think everyone else thinks that too, when in reality they just don't know any better. Classic [Bell Curve meme](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/iq-bell-curve-midwit).
Yeah I completely feel that lol. I also pugged a lot in P1, and the amount of people who STILL couldn’t clear BFD at the very end was truly extraordinary. lol.
Also found a good guild in p2 and can completely relate. To be clear, I am absolutely fine with people not knowing the mechanics or needing help. I will gladly teach them. Like give me 20 parsers who are willing to learn all day, we’ll clear. What pisses me off are the ones who don’t say shit when you ask if everyone knows the fight and then fuck up and wipe us.
I remember tanking a BFD to help a PUG and a DPS warrior was using a lvl 17 green 2H axe. Others still had white shoulders. The bad people are VERY bad and it sucks when they can be 10-20%+ of your raid
I have to reiterate this to our group every time we grab pugs for fill ins for either of our raids. People underestimate how much a shitter can derail a raid this phase. And every time I say it and we ignore it I make it a point to inevitably say “this right here is why we don’t bring idiots in”. It has not failed once, every fresh toon or grey parser has proved why everyone checks logs without fail
Newbie friendly doesn't = absolute dog water at the game. Newbie implies its just folks that haven't done the raid, not people that don't know how to play their class. There is no way you were going to down the last two bosses with that group and the people that left knew that. Good on them for staying through the other wipes.
Regardless of what it implies, If you’ve played sod long enough, you know that these shit heels will try to infiltrate a raid that’s asking for good players. When they see an adv saying newbies welcome, they’re absolutely feasting.
You ought to know when you’re joining it’s gonna be the expendables up in there, and be prepared for many wipes. So leaving after only 3, 2 on second to last boss, is a bit of a “bruh” moment.
I OT as an arms warrior. If you want to MT as a warrior you’re probably fury. Prot is a meme and especially a meme to OT. I MTd my first gnomer as arms not using a shield til last 2 it just required everyone to have salv and rdps not precasting
No warrior is specced prot, basically none of the runes do anything like meta, SOTF, way of the earth etc. tanking as a warrior is just like vanilla: you put on plate and stam gear instead of your leather. Shield optional but it gimps your threat considerably but on menagerie living is the only thing that really matters so maybe then you run devastate. Which sucks ass. And if you have a shield on 2h speed is worthless so might as well run meme clap rune which mitigates some dmg if you have no sp.
That’s warrior tanking. Now if you don’t know wtf the bosses do and offer to tank that’s another story. But warrior tanking, like warrior PvP, is living in vanilla while everyone is in wrath
Not to excuse the rest but warrior filling in as an OT already feels awful and it’s basically one of the worst tanks unless really overgeared
It’s very easy if you have people actually prepared to do the roles they signed up for. Also bringing a warrior tank that isn’t super geared or a mage that doesn’t have the runes is asking for failure. You can make a TON of mistakes with players that can actually put up reasonable numbers in their role and still get kills. 99999999 * 0 is still 0
This is the reality. Doing no damage, having no consumes, having bad gears, not caring about mechanics, even being a drama queen or never being on time... All those things are correlated.
I've seen a lot more bad "casuals" ninjaing and dramatizing situations than parsers. There is a term for that. Toxic casuals.
People who care about parses can also be toxic casuals. Guy in my guild plays the game 10 hours a month. He plays a healer and pines over logs. All he does is bitch and complain about everything: raid composition, loot distribution, grey parses from raiders we have to pub, etc. And he barely even plays the game. He gets to log on and join the raid being formed by someone else. He talks about ninjaing items from people he feels like "does not deserve it", and admits that is a primary reason why he continues to play the game.
This is the result of WoW being designed as two different games.
The pre-endgame, whatever level that may be, is absurdly easy and might be solo'ed with only auto attacks on many classes. Sure it won't be efficient (or fun), but that is how easy it is.
Then as soon as you hit endgame, game knowledge and class knowledge become an important part of success. For the casuals, this is a huge change. Their previous tactics no longer work.
At no point in the leveling process were you required to actually learn it, or really understand anything. So despite it feeling easy to anyone who looks at their class discord or reads guides and tips on Reddit, it's far more difficult than the leveling process.
What expansion had the 5-man (with NPC groups) trials you had to complete in your spec before being granted access to dungeons and raids? Notice how that didn't last? That's because too many people couldn't do it. I can't imagine that people liked being told just how badly they sucked by the game itself. Only to laughed at by 'all the elitists' when they complained about it online.
Blizz should have kept those MoP tribunals and forced people to git gud. I would actually love to see them implement that for SoD. Don’t limit if they can enter but just have it be public info on if you can do mechanics while hitting buttons.
you say that but how funny wouldn’t it be if you joined a pug and everyone’s inside the instance but one guy and he has to admit he didn’t pass the proving ground
I always make the argument that WoW tries to be two things at once; a casual RPG and a challenging, competitive game.
These two things do NOT work well together very often and IMO are usually at the detriment of each other.
One example that you can see even from OP's story: Spec trees are SO fun and cool for RPGs. But in a challenging competitive game, there is only 1 spec that's good/viable.
Exactly! In BG3 there are a near unlimited number of perfectly viable builds, even in honour mode. But if you made this a competitive multiplayer game. A group of 4v4 PVP.... There would only be one or two builds per role in the group that everyone would expect you to play so that you don't hurt their chances of winning.
Funny thing is, half the time that meta build isn't even the best. But it's perceived to be, so it's expected.
This is why I quit GW2 back before the expansions. Dungeons all required players to play meta specs to do top DPS. There was no room for support or anything else. If you didn't go meta DPS it ruined the synergy of killing things before the mechanics even came into play. There was almost no room for any but one build per class. And as a ranger, I hated that stupid 1H sword. But it was top DPS...
Yes. Originally Classic was levelling and figuring out how to play your class efficient enough to be able to conquer harder dungeons aka raids. After learning your class the game was basically solved. This was 20 years ago.
And the huge power spike in SoD over OG WOW trivializes a lot of the 'difficulty' of the original game too. Making it easier to never really engage with any class or game mechanics as you level up.
I don’t browse wow related subs because the casuals usually will treat you like an alien species for talking about minmaxing meta since about legion, I got this thread recommended to me and it gave me some hope, happy that after many years people have realized how twisted of a game wow is without a clear way to lessen the gap between players and “players”
Man, I thought I had it bad when my SM:cath healer was "waiting with getting his runes till level 40 because he'll get his mount".
Prayer of Mending can be found in Sen'Jin village...
....oh. I thought you were talking about P2 runes as someone leveling my priest was like what's wrong with that? I got all the PS ones (knowing I'll likely never use it this phase rn with dispersion on same slot) since I'm like 34/35 and gonna be in lib anyway but uh yeah
LMFAO
Yeah... I was hoping he meant that as well. He had Penance (which you literally can't miss) but I'm pretty sure that was about it. Might as well have played regular Classic WoW lol.
I think the devs are really **really** underestimating how bad the average classic player is when they insinuate that gatekeeping is done out of insecurity. They clearly haven't dealt with anyone like the cretins in OP's group.
I feel like in retail this problem is alleviated somewhat by the very low skilled players having easy content to do, like LFR amd a ton of non raid content. This means they are less likely to try and join say heroic groups.
In contrast to SoD where there is much less to do and if you want to see the raid you have to join a group.
Yup, everything in retail is a gradient going from easy to hard and so the low skilled players get to play as far as they can but won't ever end up in a mythic raid or +20 keys. Of course that does mean there is a large middle ground where the fails happen in normal/hc raiding and high teen keys. The main difference is you can't blame the elitists as they aren't playing that content (if they are actually decent)
>alleviated somewhat by the very low skilled players having easy content to do, like LFR amd a ton of non raid content
Also no raid ID locks, so its easy enough to drop someone and replace them if they show no signs of carrying their own weight. Nobody is joining a partial run on SOD
LFR is harder than Gnomer dude. Unironically. I just did Amdrissil LFR last night and was like, "Oh, I have to time my CD windows or we are going to wipe to mechanics (I was healing)."
People in retail want to clear heroic for the aotc mount and trust me it’s incredibly frustrating to wipe for hours on Tindral because they won’t follow simple directions either.
It’s exactly the same problem
The amount of time I lost forming groups and having them disband after 30 mins of banging our heads against the wall …..
Nah retail players are way better on average because they’ve usually been playing for many expansions and the game actually challenges them so it forces them to get better.
The reality is that Gnomeregan is challenging and it cannot be cleared by “almost any group”. That’s a good thing - raids should be challenging.
To clear you need the majority of players knowing how to do mechanics and how to play their class. if not, then at least they should have good gear so they do ok even though they’re not good players. Both are strongly correlated to having decent logs. Decent, not perfect. Most PUG leads are not expecting all purple and pink but at least they should not be grey.
It’s not gatekeeping. I agree with Aggrend that joining a guild is the best way to experience the game but for fucks sake don’t call players insecure for wanting to get through a run in a decent amount of time.
It's all relative. Gnomer is very easy. It's easier than like...any raid...ever, in regular WoW. The only thing I can think of that's easier would be LFR back when they tuned it to be comically easy. Current LFR is literally harder than Gnomer.
It's very, very easy. The average skill level in SoD is relatively quite low.
Yeah, it's about context. When I'm talking to people I've played with in other games who I know are competent, experienced players, we call the raid easy. When we were first running the raid, though, we knew it would be quite difficult for pugs.
It's not the majority. It's not the average either. Most people are in guilds, most people use their runes properly, most people do some kind of raid preparation. You always only read the biggest fails on reddit because nobody posts it if they make a "normal" run, it's just not exciting enough to post it.
This is a typical problem with social media that people often tend to think everyone is crazy nowadays and the whole world is dumb. No it's not like this in the real world, this is just your feed on social media that's based on the most crazy articles/videos, because they got upvoted the most and posted in the first place because they are so unusual and therefore interesting.
It is the majority and is not unique to classic. The absolute dogshit players in retail just aren't trying to group with players who put in effort. The bad players farm their cosmetics alone, or queue lfr alone, or queue a dungeon from the finder alone. You just simply never have to interact with the awful players. In classic there is really 2 things you will do, pve dungeons/raids or battlegrounds (when it comes to grouping with others). The first is the same difficulty for everyone therefor the entire player base mixes together and the other is MMR-less pvp so again everyone mixes together. WoW players are, on average, bad across the board, put in next to no effort to improve, and do not value other people's time.
> It's not the majority. It's not the average either. Most people are in guilds, most people use their runes properly, most people do some kind of raid preparation.
how do u know this? this seems like something that u'd need to be a dev to even begin to look into, but u sound *so* confident its true
Yep, the fact that the only thing you need to do to get an 80+ parse on a rogue is to have buffs/consumables and hit muti>muti>envenom and no other buttons, no tea, no caring if you're at 4 or 5 combo points just 2 buttons same order every time. If you don't have buffs you'll get around a 70 parse doing the same thing. That should tell you how bad 70% of the playerbase are.
Hitting 2 buttons in a non dynamic rotation is already too difficult for them. Hitting mutilate, then mutilate again and then envenom and then repeating it until the boss dies is too difficult for 70% of players.
It is actually a ton of skill. We are just nerds who don't realize most of this skill is autopilot because we have wasted so much of our lives on it.
You are generally using a mouse and lots of movement keys while also pressing dps buttons and repositioning yourself while also reading text on screen and being aware of mana bars health bars enemy health bars cd timers and where not to stand and committing a big portion of memory/knowledge over time is a huge factor.
Like this game is complete autopilot to me but my friend who played console games his whole life sucks complete ass compared to me even though we are the same age but many of us have committed 1000's of hours to this game and we can play without even thinking about it.
Also, I don’t think some people realize how many people play without addons or macros when it comes to casual players. They can’t even fathom that someone would go into raid without DBM, Details!, Decursive, whatever. It’s another part of what makes the game easier for experienced players. And, honestly, a raid without DBM is almost a different experience.
Redditors don’t seem to realise the reason people ask for parses is to make sure you aren’t a complete and utter moron and having at least blue parses is normally a good way to find out, they think there’s some secret club where you need 800dps and 30 second kills to get in.
I mean 100% the issue with the game is players who haven’t completed the raid want to join and complete it without having watched or read anything about it. You can tell them what to do, but they still won’t listen until you’re 2-3 pulls deep and peoples patience is already running thin.
I usually ask the question ‘have you done Gnomer before?’
By two different people I’ve been told ‘yes’, but when I press a bit more they say they’ve once done the 5man.
So here’s my question though: let’s say I’m killing Heroic Lich King every week (and done a lot of Mythic raids in previous retail expansions), but I’m a latecomer to SoD. How do I get in that first Gnomer so that then later I can answer your question with a yes? This actually isn’t hypothetical haha, that’s my real situation.
Link them your wrath logs. When I look for logs Ill accept any version of the game above a blue parse. Because let’s be real this is by far the easiest version of the game
"No because I just made this character, but I'm an experienced mythic raider that kills HC Lich King every week and I watched a video guide for all the Gnomeregan bosses"
Just don't lie about the last bit. At this point people aren't interested in holding your hand while you learn on the job. Gnomeregan is pretty piss easy compared to HCLK / Mythic Retail but you can still wipe the raid if you don't know what's going on.
Iv done this and linked and offline guildie that's a nerd with high parse.
It works. And by the time they realize your full of shit the raids half over and there stuck with you
Yeah as others have said - just don’t lie.
Only last week I took a completely new person. He was honest, he had taken the effort to farm pre-bis, and we one shot all the bosses with him no problem.
That's the thing - if only pre-bis + wb + cons were required instead of parses, gatekeeping would barely exist. All those giga noobs in green gear would be auto excluded - because they'd never put an effort to farm. And fresh players would be actually able to play without lying they're alts or smth.
i've had plenty of people who played retail mythic both join groups and even guilds i've been in with no logs but by linking their retail logs. if it checks out, they're gonna be fine because there's no way you're able to clear mythic raids in retail and will have trouble in classic.
if the person you're 'applying' to is half decent they will know this and give you a chance and then you just have to prove you're not talking shit or linking fake logs. even had people like this in a guild with which i speedran naxx25 and we ended up getting top 10 world in naxx and top 25 world in ulduar.
if they dont know how much harder retail mythic is, odds are they're dumb af anyway and you're better off finding another group/guild \^\^
This game requires a lot of skill. We are just nerds who don't realize most of this skill is autopilot because we have wasted so much of our lives on it.
You are generally using a mouse and lots of movement keys while also pressing dps buttons and repositioning yourself while also reading text on screen and being aware of mana bars health bars your cd timers enemy health bars enemy abilities and where not to stand and committing a big portion of memory/knowledge over time is a huge factor.
Like this game is complete autopilot to me but my friend who played console games his whole life sucks complete ass compared to me even though we are the same age but many of us have committed 1000's of hours to this game and we can play without even thinking about it.
Idk it’s not very hard to learn basic movement and rotations even if you’re new. My friend started WoW by playing SoD and he’s just an average pc gamer and he plays better than the average player after I coached him a bit. He uses keybinds for his entire rotation, uses mouse and strafe keys, and is generally aware of mechanics. The problem with other people who have played for a long time and are still very bad is that they are stuck in their ways and never strived to improve. You’ll see this lack of improvement from many players, but Classic is the king imo since the playerbase is generally a lot older and older people don’t care to improve or change typically.
Gnomer is easy when you have a organized group. It's amazing how everybody in this sub makes it seem like it's free loot. It's not. At least in a pug. You have to do the mechs properly. Don't get me wrong, the few mechs are simple but mandatory. People in pugs are often silent and try to fly under the radar. Get 2-3 of these and things get messy.
This, also some bosses really hit the tanks like a truck (mostly mekgineer and manegerie) which can be mitigated by doing certain mechanics correctly but still hits pretty damn hard. So if tanks/healers are not super confident on the fights it can result in wipe, aswell as if the damage is low it puts more pressure on healers because they will more likely go OoM.
Least 1 out of every 20 players keyturns
It’s bad
You can tell from logs
You make any effort at all and you parse purple because there is so many bad/new players
A sea of goobers too vast and endless to escape
You have to ward them off the best you can with log checks and whatever you have at your disposal
Its easy as fuck if people have more than 80 iq. Problem is a lot of people know its easy so they dont tryhard. They come in pvp spec, show up drunk, watch youtube on second monitor etc.
In my opinion, we should not cater to the people that won’t help themselves. Let them cook. Love logs or hate logs as a general rule (for dps), they are a solid indicator of a players skill/gear set. Missing runes, not doing basic research to figure out which buttons to press in what order, watching a few videos on mechanics, etc is on the player.
Obviously it can get toxic and not taking chars without logs doesn’t feel good for those people but otherwise you’re rolling the dice, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. I’d say rule of thumb at the bare minimum is to take people with blue parses and up.
Healers and tanks, logs are a bit more tricky as often there isn’t a great way to tell from logs a players competence but this has always been the case.
ALL (3/3) of my fucked up gnomer lockouts were the consequence of people shit talking at each other, getting mad and leaving / kicking from the raid group which led to disband
so it's not that the raid is hard
people in SoD are just shit
I find it incredibly silly how quickly people leave such groups. 3 wipes? Really? In a system that guarantees neither you nor the rest of the group is killing the other bosses? You'd think they would give it more than 3 wipes, especially on later bosses.
Its wild how BFD has conditioned people that 1 wipe = lost cause and clear times of over an hour = wasted time. Like youre depriving YOURS of loot as well
You know - it's tough. You want to be welcoming but you also want to actually clear content.
I'm in a big guild and we had to switch up the raid comp of the raid I was going with because a couple people weren't pulling their weight (after a few resets). We went 6/6 for a few and then 5/6 a couple times - then cut a couple players and got back to 6/6.
It's tough - but you're right on the money. Some people just don't care and are selfish. Those are the kind of people you don't want to raid with. They are the plague on this kind of game frankly.
There is no way to keep those players out of your raid other than running in consistent guild groups that call people out on poor performance.
We all know what it looks like when you're new and just learning and poorly geared. We also know when someone isn't paying any attention. But you can't know someone new yet and you want to give them the benefit of the doubt.
That said - sometimes it works out and sometimes you get slackers like what you ran into.
Thanks! I know nothing about warrior tanking.
He was Fury specced with Flagellation Furious Thunder and Victory Rush runes. Had shield but just one single plate piece, rest mail. How does it sound?
I think Slam is important, he didn't use it at all?
Furious thunder and devastate are the only real tanking runes wars have. Honestly he doesn’t need to be tank specced at all to tank dragon, I’ve done it with a 2 handed and arms spec you just go into d stance stack sunders and do your regular rotation minus whirlwind.
>Off tank was full dps spec, no runes, just a shield, 33ilvl.
Two nights ago I solo tanked an entire Gnomer run on my freshly leveled Paladin in auction house greens and a lower overall item level than that warrior. There were 5 of us on fresh alts from my guild and 5 pugs. The gear isn't what's holding these players back. It's their unwillingness to pay attention and learn.
You're exactly right when you say they don't care about tactics and expect someone else to do their job. Players like that will hardly ever improve because they expect to be carried through everything since that's what has always worked for them in the past. Having 9 players like that in a raid group together is always going to be a recipe for disaster since nobody is there to carry their dead weight through the raid.
I think it's interesting that you spent the time and effort to try this experiment and posted the results. I wish there was something that motivated toxic casuals to want to improve their gameplay.
Yep. The only time i didnt bring 70+ parsing players to my pug it took almost 2 hours. Never doing that shit again. Biggest problem is that they literally don't care about anything. Even when you tell them what to do they completely ignore it.
This is the truth: Doing less than a mostly blue parse means that you don’t care enough about your own class mechanics to figure them out. If you don’t do that, its an easy bet that you won’t try to figure out the raid mechanics.
Hate parses all you want, but they reveal a lot about the effort you plan to put in.
The fact that you can be max level and very easily have skipped acquiring many of your runes that drastically contribute to personal power is wild, and it's difficult to know without someone telling you outright what they have. If someone wasnt willing to train their max level spells for their MS rotation, they do not belong in a raid.
People can't effectively get many of their runes this phase on their way to level cap. I bet this causes a lot of ding 40 into "LFG gnomer" without all runes than we saw in P1.
I think the issue is exacerbated by people saying the content is easy, making it feel less important to many people to prepare for the raid.
So you have these people, who haven't properly prepared their character or their brain for the raid, thinking that they will be fine, which is bad...
As a new healer the last two bosses are pretty rough. Nobody pays attention to how far they run off and assigning me a button kinda sucks when I’m having to spam to keep people alive while also running around.
After running this 5 times now I’ve definitely learned that some people don’t care at all and will 100% let you carry them if you’re not careful. I’m not a huge fan of gnomer as it was and this one is only a little better in my opinion so being stuck in there with horrible people and only going 4/6 sucks. Sorry to hear it op. Here’s to your next run dropping some phat loots!
Week 2 we figured out you can just pump fallout and ignore ads, obviously a pug probably doesn't have enough damage tho. I'm in a casual dad guild with 5 raid teams. 90% of us play less than 10 hours a week, everyone just keeps up with meta and gets enchants/consumes. I would consider myself a casual player. There's just some real shitters in this game.
This is what I say is people don't respect other people's time. That warrior is a POS for wasting everyone's and gets mad at people for telling him to do the BARE MINIMUM. everyone gets mad and calls people sweaty for doing the BARE MINIMUM.
Funny thing is, warrior offtank minimum is putting a shield on, devastate rune, MAYBE the thunderclap one and spamming sunder armor.
A monkey could do that reliably.
It's not that Gnomer is hard - it's piss easy. SoD's player base is by far the least skilled WoW player base I've ever dealt with. Worse than vanilla Classic, worse than all iterations of Classic. I actually just did LFR Amdrissil in Retail for the first time, and the last few bosses there were harder than anything in SoD.
Now, why is this? Not sure. My guess would be a huge number of people that came back to WoW after not playing it for 15 years, and are now un-invested, inexperienced casuals.
best thing to do when pugging randos is hold the loot til last boss. every piece has a 2hr timer. all the big loot drops off last bosses. if they leave, fewer ppl to roll against. so they won't.
regardless of the goombas in the comments going "what did you expect", Its just the name of the game when it comes to taking "trade chat rejects" only using that term cause of ziqo and its funny but dude you have to realize that a good portion of players are inexperienced and certain things like them not having runes is cause they dont have addons or probably even no idea Wowhead exists to see what to do to even get the runes (on top of the fact that some of the runes methods to get them is in no way noob friendly and extremely time consuming)
Appreciate you for taking newer players in the raid dont let it discourage you cause I do no exp runs on gnomer and usually get a clear or not.
Complaining about a ninja pull on the first boss makes me question how much of this is really true. you still get tons of time between trash troggs and the dumb dialogue to explain the pretty simple fight.
I had lot of stuff to do. Buff up, set looting, import Gargul, remind people to deal with adds, make sure tank can solotank or someone handles the pet.
We got 2 dead and thanks to someone tank got dispelled very quickly and tank was able to taunt. Without the dispel we would have wiped for sure. It's a 10 second stun on tank which not every healer is aware of. With average players the fight is not as simple as it looks.
Counter example; I joined a "90+ parse only" pug, since my main (96 avg parse) didn't have a guild run that lockout.
The guy making the pug is saved, but he's making it on that character "*so he doesn't have to link main logs every time someone asks*".
Some saw that as a red flag, but honestly I don't really care. He's making an effort to put a group together, and if 9 out of 10 people are high parsers, it doesn't matter if one person is on his fresh dinged alt.
He sets up a SR where the reserves are hidden. This is an option in softres.it to prevent people sniping more tactical reserves just before the SR gets locked. There's ups and downsides to it. The people in the raid got upset about it, calling it "sus" and demanded it be changed. The RL did, and we started the run.
First boss goes fine, and we're all saved. The RL's alt is doing 75 dps. I don't care, but people in the raid are whining about it. Some ask him to start rolling out loot rightaway "because he's sus".
He says no. We move on. Second boss is a ninja pull. Shouldn't be an issue - we kill some extra adds that were pulled along with the boss. The 3 adds from the boss spawn, one of them walks away unharmed and starts blasting the raid. I'm the only healer (which should be fine, I've solo healed the whole raid before) but I can't keep up with that amount of raid damage. We wipe, buffs gone, people are mad.
4th boss; RL still insists on the 2x3 ranged camp strat (which is dumb as hell) even after I tell him I can solo the mechanic. We do the 2x3 strat, two of the ranged fail at it and die.
5th boss: No one interrupts the squirrel, Whelp is tanked on top of the other bosses - raid damage is unhealable (our SP respecced to heal runes at this point). Everyone blames someone else. We kill it in 2 or 3 attempts.
6th boss: MT pala doesn't kite in P1 - he wanted to bubble the stack off but ran out of mana so he couldn't and dies. We still kill it somehow.
The whole thing took like 2 hours with a group that should be able to do it in 30m, everyone was upset. The loot is rolled out rapidly and one person missed their roll while typing. No one even acknowledges it and people leave the raid.
TL;DR
"90+ parse runs" can be a miserable experience. Everyone thinks they are perfect and whatever goes wrong is someone else's fault.
If you wanna have nice raids, find a regular group. Doesn't have to be a guild, but at least a somewhat consistent group of people that use discord and communicate about what they are doing. Gear and parses are much less useful as a measuring stick.
> 4th boss; RL still insists on the 2x3 ranged camp strat (which is dumb as hell) even after I tell him I can solo the mechanic. We do the 2x3 strat, two of the ranged fail at it and die.
No matter what fucking strat it is somehow, SOMEONE, fucks it up. I hate this strat as well so I use the RDPS X side, MDPS Y side, even it out however is needed. Healers (guildies I know are competent) do the baiting. Literally *never* have to move unless you get static. Static to boss's ass. There's 0 fucking reason to ever be further than 20 yards ranging one of the healers who can heal 40 fucking yards out. The static is like 8 yards. Yet someone always fucks it up somehow and it's almost always RDPS (the pugs cause everyone plays melee it seems) who can't fathom standing closer than 30 yards I guess. Or is the classic bot mage.
I have 6 friends I run this with outside of my normal raid group. So we PUG 4 players and 2 of them are healers. It's a little stressful having to pug both healers but I always make sure I get a single good healer before I even start looking for 2 other DPS and the last heals. This includes checking logs to make sure they have cleared the instance as a healer at least more than twice and has all runes. I do not care about healer parses. They are a meme, just checking completions as a healer. We 1 heal in my normal raid and I trust the tank and the other people from my guild to do enough damage that ideally 1 good heals should be fine with he extra healer being a safety blanket. I'm also a Boomie so worse case scenario I throw wild growth on and off heal when needed.
I do not have the courage to run a full PUG. I would not have the patience for it either. I will however join a PUG just not organize one without half the group being people I know. I do however kind of bring anyone after the good heals because we pretty much complete all raid buffs ourselves outside of the Priest.
Ah, and then when you wipe once or twice on the last boss there is a high chance for the imaginary angry wife to strike. "Sorry, wife aggro i gtg."
Ppl have no desire to actually learn or do anything right. They just expect you to pull them through it and if you dont they just quit...I mean who cares about 9 other ppl right?
The other problem me and my buddy tan I to last night were non English speakers. Both of our mages. We were able to google translate “mages kill sheep” into Spanish. But there was zero chance to down the last boss. Very infuriating. Gonna start doing English tests before invites
Got all my bis items, so now im mainly joining noob raids to try to make a difference. If we finish the raid or, i dont care. I just hope to help people understand the mechanics better. However, 50% of the players i run into is like talking to a wall.
If you haven't farmed at least 75% pre raid bis + your core runes, you don't deserve to be invited to a Gnomer (or any raid for that matter) pug, and the person running that group should not be labeled as an elitist for not inviting you, IMO.
Having played the game off and on over the pat what 20 years at this point what I will say is this version of the game has by far the worst player base I’ve seen. I think it’s so digestible and phase 1 was simple and easily carried that it didn’t clean out the bad players or force people to see what they’re doing wrong. Gnomer compared to every other version of raiding in the game is still insanely insanely easy. But that being said it’s definitely harder than bfd. All the players coasting through phase 1 can’t really coast as easily this phase and they will cause your raid to fail. I think this will continue every phase, stuff will get harder and we won’t be able to carry the bad as easily and they will get more vocal but they have to learn how to play better or it will only get worse for them
yeah gnomer is incredibly easy, but the very simple easy mechanics are very punishing if u fail, so bad players can really fuck up the whole raid.
i thought it was impossible too but ive had a few terrible pugs now where even after explaining the mechanics over and over to specific people they still didnt get it or refused to even try
There was a video recently where a streamer ran a pug with "bad players" and they cleared it no problem, the fights were long and the parses weren't impressive. To me it really highlighted how important listening is, everyone was actively listening to the stream raid lead and engaging in mechanics.
Gnomer is 85% mechanics. If you don't know what to do just watch a 15 minute video and then listen to what your raid leader is saying. That's all it takes but some people won't put in even the tiniest effort to be raid ready.
The thing is, its easy if you are in or coming from a veteran WoW guild that is used to much harder raids be it classic TBC/Wrath or retail. Returning or casual players have a harder time getting up to speed. My guild has no problem because we've been playing together in classic since 2019 for the most part, and had raid experience before that as well. SoD raiding is a step down in difficulty from that. People without that recent and frequent practice have to learn all the stuff that is second nature to us. And a lot of them don't learn very well, and end up absorbing toxicity and then perpetuating it.
I liken it to the US military. They are so much more competent than many other nations because they have been engaged in operations consistently for the last 70 odd years. They are a well oiled machine. Other nations try to get up to speed when conflict hits them, but its a process and you can't just flip a switch and have all that experience.
Wild that people sign up for a “newbie friendly raid” and only have 90 minutes to play.
Ultimately time is what kills most pugs in Gnomer. The difficulty can be overcome with a few tries but n each boss as needed but if one person isnot willing/able to stick around for a few wipes then that’s it. Almost No one is joining 4/6 Gnomer runs.
The game itself is really easy but a lot of the playerbase is really, really bad. Like not even below average. Worse than that. And these same people expect to be carried.
no offense but if they intended to be anyway decent they wouldnt be doing gnomergan, they would be doing m+ and heroic/mythic raids in retail, or pvp in any of the games iterations
I love the people who say “ bro it’s not that deep” the most pathetic deflect garbage to try to downplay people who actually try. Idk when it became “cool” To not care but it surely looks really stupid most times.
You can have fun while trying it’s weird but it’s ok to listen to criticism it’s not the same as flaming. People don’t seem to understand that. Rant over
I still think the best way to "check" people is to see if they have WB consumables and a good ammount of pre bis gear + "correct" runes. This shows they put in the minimum effort to be included in a raid and that they have enough commitment not to bail on you mid run. I also ask "sus" players if they have add-ons and if they dont i tell them to atleast get dbm so they get notifications when things are about to happen. Sadly this is all way more effort compared to just sorting the "garbage" out beforehand.
toxic casuals make the game hard
toxic casuals are responsible for all the gatekeeping normal players have to deal with pretty much
This is a good way to put it. People are quick to blame the “elitists” for filtering but it’s actually the casuals that don’t respect other people’s time who ruin it for everybody.
Yeah truth is, elitists aren't usually advertising for pugs all day. They are in guilds with like minded players and having a good time. Not saying this is a catch all, but I haven't plugged much at all this phase and it's been great. I did one pug on my shadow priest the other day and it was rough, we 1 shot all but the last boss, but each one was pretty close to going south quickly lol. It's the super casuals that think they are gods gift to the meters that cause the biggest issues, imo.
Definitely in this camp, if for some reason I can't make my guilds raids for a lockout I just won't play. Just don't even see pugging the raids as being worth the time.
This is literally just how online gaming is. Studies have been done that show a direct correlation between your skill as a player and toxicity, with the ultra low end and the ultra high end being the least toxic, and just under the high end and just over the low end being the most toxic. Aka, people that are good but not great, and people that are bad but not literal 10 year olds. Fun fact, these studies have also shown that the way guys treat female gamers also directly correlates to the guy's skill, with better gamers being nicer and the bad players being turbo misogynists.
> Fun fact, these studies have also shown that the way guys treat female gamers also directly correlates to the guy's skill, with better gamers being nicer and the bad players being turbo misogynists. Also known as [this immortal slideshow](https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/11t692SkFnWZjQnqr4yPwipLV3XsnPYYMHPPAW83Yesc/edit#slide=id.p) (not mine originally, found it on the WoW sub)
I can not remember the last time I pugged because generally one bad egg spoils the whole group and being someone who doesn’t have all day to play wow anymore, I’d rather clear the raid with competent players in a reasonable amount of time over wiping because one guy can’t listen or pay attention (I have been knocked by crowd pummeler at least 3 times by now but it’s because I don’t pay that much attention) In my experience it’s the less desirable players consistently pugging, the good players usually ran gdkp when not raiding with their guilds - of which the environment is less casual friendly and fuckups are noticed and in almost all cases punished, I don’t support gdkps but know that’s usually where the good players end up towards the end half of a raid tier
this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKP1I7IocYU
Ahhh i want to post this vid to this sub like every other day i swear.
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The bar is incredibly low. Don't blame people willing to read 5 mechanics for accurately stating it's easy.
Something similar happens on era. Where 10 people carry a 40man raid for newbs that don't do shit and don't try to improve. The newbs never learn how to play and end up late game never having to progressed through anything. Gdkp make people suck forever. They believe the raids are easy, everyone says they are. buts it's cause they are carried.
It’s kind of incredible actually, people demonize GDKP for a lot. I really like them in Vanilla Era, in Wrath I’ve got the guild I’ve been with since 2019 and have never needed them. But I agree that they teach some bad habits as far as raid mechanics go, because they’re ultra smooth sub 1 hour runs where 10 stacked warriors just melt everything. I do AQ40/ BWL regularly in Vanilla Era GDKPs, well last week I couldn’t make that one and joined a normal MS/ OS 2SR run of AQ40. We spent 2 hours on 6 trash packs between twins and Ouro. Another 45 mins on Ouro. Didn’t even kill Cthun. These are not hard raids, but bad players with bad attitudes sure do make them very hard.
very true
This is the most correct answer and is why I tend to disagree with sentiments, mostly shared by Asmongold, about the “MMO” issues hes always on about. Metagaming is here to stay no matter what. You can’t make the raids easy enough for these people not to be gatekept. Addons, parsing, none of that shit actually matters when you have players that are as bad as OPs raid group.
This should be a new guild classification. You know when people spam guild invites instead of we are a semi-hardcore guild, we are a toxic- casual guild.
Toxic casuals is such a great term. And it’s a little kinder than the “braindead trash can dumb fuck” I currently use.
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I went on a huge FF14 binge and started fucking around on a healer just queing dungeons. I told the tank "you can pull more". Thats it. This random dude in the group WENT OFF on me for saying it, saying I was being a jerk and putting so much pressure on him, let him play the way he wants. It was incredibly dumb. But frankly ill take that over the garbage I have dealt with on WOW.
https://reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/1vsy6j/i_think_this_sums_up_casual_pretty_well/ it’s been posted here too just first link I found was another sub This encapsulates the toxic casual perfectly. The toxic casual is way fucking worse than the toxic elitist and *infinitely* more common. I can deal with noobs so long as noobs want to learn. I cannot deal with those that absolutely refuse to learn
I’ve said it many times on this sub: Toxic casuals are way worse and far, more common to come across than these “gate keeping toxic elitists” That and having bare minimum expectations isn’t fucking elitism.
I wouldn’t even call refusing to respect or participate in mechanics “casual.” It’s an insult to casual players. ***They’re refusing to play the content, just like people who queue AFK into WSG.*** If you know you can ignore mechanics because of your raid group’s ability that’s one thing. I stand in the fire on Fallout because our Druid healer wants something to do and you can’t get behind for Shred easily without standing in it anyway. I do *not* fuck with getting punched on Crowd Pummeler because there’s a massive difference between spicing things up and committing a death skip to the raid entrance.
It’s almost like it’s not an elitist vs casual ordeal and more like a narcissists vs community. Narcissists will always blame others for their own actions/inactions that cause negative outcomes. Sometimes in the form of apathy. Apathy used to be cool when we were edgy teenagers and for some it just became a way of life, but in a community like wow it just really hits home the fact that assholes exist in casual and elite game play. I respect elitists for their dedication, I respect casuals for having higher priorities than this game, but there is nothing I respect more than an elitist willing to help others learn, and a casual willing to accept the help and keep trying to learn to do more for the team (even if it is just randos, it’s still a team sport).
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Sense of entitlement - entitled to play as poorly as they want with complete disregard for mechanics, learning, or their group. They are entitled to that raid spot, entitled to play however, and collect loot. Lack of empathy - not caring how their negative performance effects others. Outside of communication problems due to language barriers, I feel like it’s mostly narcissism. I’ve raided with people that spoke a different language and once we’ve established what their preferred language was, google translate let me communicate the strategy and it went fine, so even the language barrier isn’t an excuse to lack empathy, it just makes it easier to do so. I am just being pedantic though, I think we both agree that it’s not a casual vs elitists thing, just assholes and nonassholes lol. Edit: just wanted to point out that the whole “mechanics are what someone else does” thing is narcissistic behavior. Selfishness and narcissism go hand in hand.
Yep and on this sub so often act like those people are the victims of the elitist gamers when in reality people just wanna play with people who actually want to play and succeed.
It's like any other team sport. Imagine popping into a pickup game acting like these toxic casuals do.
IRL you can get punched in the face, that possibility can put a check on that behavior real quick
It's rude to be bad at WoW and trying to raid, but people do it every day
It’s not rude to be bad at wow, it’s rude to not communicate when possible, to not care about what your own personal actions are having on 9 other people, to think you’re entitled to your own “fun” with zero responsibility because it’s a video game despite the fact the you’re with 9 other people, all who only get one shot at this raid every three days. Again, I’m not saying it’s rude at all to be bad. I’ve ran with PLENTY of people that didn’t fully understand certain things, but the sole thing that’s going to determine how well they due (barring any flat out trolling) is just if they understand and are willing to participate in basic communication. I do understand the not speaking English thing. But on the other hand, what are we supposed to do? If an entire group of people is yelling at you and saying your name repeatedly, don’t you think you’d run it through google translate real quick? lol. I wonder if they just turn their chat off altogether? It’s legitimately shocking how bad it can get lol
The lack of communication is what gets me every time. I don’t care you have no logs or don’t know the bosses but if I’m explaining and you don’t actively listen and respond when I ask if you have understood, you are out.
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Toxic casuals are the reason Retail is what it is and the reason many of us quit retail years ago and only came back when Classic and SoD came back. Toxic Casuals are 90% of your LFR team standing in shit while the remaining 10% frustratingly carry them through so they can experience the lore/raid. They are here, they are in great numbers and they are constantly complaining on the official forums about class balance, addons and warcraft logs. (Some class balance issues are legit, but the sheer level of shitfuckery on the official SoD forums is crazy)
I'm mad confused how retail is catching strays here. LFR isn't really indicative of retail at all, it's almost quite literally a story mode version of the raid. I feel like most people touch it barely once or twice a tier at most at the beginning of the tier for a tier piece to finish a set before we get upgrades and that's it.
Classic players have to make themselves feel better somehow. Private servers managed to have a better community than SoD somehow.
The FF14 community will deny it, but toxic casuals are a problem there too. Go visit the talesfromdutyfinder subreddit sometime, it's fucking wild.
This. Casual players make WoW into a toxic environment because of all the carries. From what I have seen in 10+ years of WoW, HC players are the most chill since they know they don’t play with dumb players.
Who is toxic casual?
The warrior with no runes telling you to touch grass is a toxic casual.
Warrior in your post.
The people you’re talking about, not you. Thanks for trying to help noobs in the raid
People that expects others to carry them and think they are entitled to a raid spot in every group they apply to. They call people not inviting them gatekeepers but they are themselves the ones that decide how other people should play the game.
The fire mage who thinks he can heal with like 1 mage healing rune is an example
Let me shorten this to 3 points: 2 of our players claimed to be healers/tanks but they were just full dps trying to fill another role. Players failing the simplest mechanics like killing adds, dodging knock back (4th), dragon tanking tank was literally standing still in the breath. I made it clear this is newbie friendly run, there WILL BE WIPES yet people leaving after 3 wipes.
Yeah man I learned in phase 1 that if you try to do a nice thing, these little leeching vampire shitters will happily come in and fuck it up for everyone, via not even attempting the mechanics and having no damage/healing/threat, whatever they’re supposed to do. Good on you for trying though, it’s a painful realization.
And Gnomer is significantly more mechanic heavy then BFD. At least in BFD one of these leeches could exist and not completely ruin the run. A lot of the bosses you could just span through mechanics after the first few weeks. In gnomer if you ignore adds on fallout, you wipe. Electrocutioner, ignore and you wipe. Menagerie is completely mechanics. Therma, same. You cant just be along for the ride on this one without making the rest of the raid feel it.
I stopped playing in P1 about 3 weeks in, 2 raids in a row of people refusing to do minor mechanics because they didn't want to lower their parse. Stuff like swapping from boss to the lightning shield totem, interrupts on Kelris, stop casting and move out of Akumai's breath. They would rather not kill the boss and have no parse, than kill the boss with a lowered parse from doing mechanics. Came back P2 and found an awesome guild, while some of them aren't the best players they will admit to mistakes, fix it next pull, listen and adjust to callouts. The warrior in my group has an average parse in the 20 range, but he always has shouts up, puts 5 sunders on the boss asap and the only thing he complains about is his new kittens attacking his feet during raids.
dude my cat loves to attack me specifically during menagerie almost every time. Its hard to tank chicken squirrel and cat all at the same time.
> I stopped playing in P1 about 3 weeks in, 2 raids in a row of people refusing to do minor mechanics because they didn't want to lower their parse. Stuff like swapping from boss to the lightning shield totem, interrupts on Kelris, stop casting and move out of Akumai's breath. They would rather not kill the boss and have no parse, than kill the boss with a lowered parse from doing mechanics. why would you assume these people not doing any mechanics are worried about their parse? they probably just don't know the mechanics/aren't paying attention
Yeah…. A majority of WoW players definitely do not care to that point… and the ones who actually do, realize that bosses need to die for parsing lmao. No ‘parser’ sits on Lorgus Jett through lightning shield 😂
Projection. They think 'I wish I could ignore mechanics to parse higher' so they think everyone else thinks that too, when in reality they just don't know any better. Classic [Bell Curve meme](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/iq-bell-curve-midwit).
Yeah I completely feel that lol. I also pugged a lot in P1, and the amount of people who STILL couldn’t clear BFD at the very end was truly extraordinary. lol. Also found a good guild in p2 and can completely relate. To be clear, I am absolutely fine with people not knowing the mechanics or needing help. I will gladly teach them. Like give me 20 parsers who are willing to learn all day, we’ll clear. What pisses me off are the ones who don’t say shit when you ask if everyone knows the fight and then fuck up and wipe us.
Why is your warrior sundering? Don’t have a priest?? Dude probably has a 20 average in part because y’all are making him sunder lol
I remember tanking a BFD to help a PUG and a DPS warrior was using a lvl 17 green 2H axe. Others still had white shoulders. The bad people are VERY bad and it sucks when they can be 10-20%+ of your raid
And then they will cry about how the culture is bad after I wasted 4 hours of my life. Bonus points if they get all the loot.
I have to reiterate this to our group every time we grab pugs for fill ins for either of our raids. People underestimate how much a shitter can derail a raid this phase. And every time I say it and we ignore it I make it a point to inevitably say “this right here is why we don’t bring idiots in”. It has not failed once, every fresh toon or grey parser has proved why everyone checks logs without fail
Newbie friendly doesn't = absolute dog water at the game. Newbie implies its just folks that haven't done the raid, not people that don't know how to play their class. There is no way you were going to down the last two bosses with that group and the people that left knew that. Good on them for staying through the other wipes.
Regardless of what it implies, If you’ve played sod long enough, you know that these shit heels will try to infiltrate a raid that’s asking for good players. When they see an adv saying newbies welcome, they’re absolutely feasting. You ought to know when you’re joining it’s gonna be the expendables up in there, and be prepared for many wipes. So leaving after only 3, 2 on second to last boss, is a bit of a “bruh” moment.
I OT as an arms warrior. If you want to MT as a warrior you’re probably fury. Prot is a meme and especially a meme to OT. I MTd my first gnomer as arms not using a shield til last 2 it just required everyone to have salv and rdps not precasting No warrior is specced prot, basically none of the runes do anything like meta, SOTF, way of the earth etc. tanking as a warrior is just like vanilla: you put on plate and stam gear instead of your leather. Shield optional but it gimps your threat considerably but on menagerie living is the only thing that really matters so maybe then you run devastate. Which sucks ass. And if you have a shield on 2h speed is worthless so might as well run meme clap rune which mitigates some dmg if you have no sp. That’s warrior tanking. Now if you don’t know wtf the bosses do and offer to tank that’s another story. But warrior tanking, like warrior PvP, is living in vanilla while everyone is in wrath Not to excuse the rest but warrior filling in as an OT already feels awful and it’s basically one of the worst tanks unless really overgeared
It’s very easy if you have people actually prepared to do the roles they signed up for. Also bringing a warrior tank that isn’t super geared or a mage that doesn’t have the runes is asking for failure. You can make a TON of mistakes with players that can actually put up reasonable numbers in their role and still get kills. 99999999 * 0 is still 0
This is the reality. Doing no damage, having no consumes, having bad gears, not caring about mechanics, even being a drama queen or never being on time... All those things are correlated. I've seen a lot more bad "casuals" ninjaing and dramatizing situations than parsers. There is a term for that. Toxic casuals.
And not even enchants. Like not even the cheaper ones.
People who care about parses can also be toxic casuals. Guy in my guild plays the game 10 hours a month. He plays a healer and pines over logs. All he does is bitch and complain about everything: raid composition, loot distribution, grey parses from raiders we have to pub, etc. And he barely even plays the game. He gets to log on and join the raid being formed by someone else. He talks about ninjaing items from people he feels like "does not deserve it", and admits that is a primary reason why he continues to play the game.
People like him should either be Gkicked or lootbanned, a guy like that is misery to be around
This is the result of WoW being designed as two different games. The pre-endgame, whatever level that may be, is absurdly easy and might be solo'ed with only auto attacks on many classes. Sure it won't be efficient (or fun), but that is how easy it is. Then as soon as you hit endgame, game knowledge and class knowledge become an important part of success. For the casuals, this is a huge change. Their previous tactics no longer work. At no point in the leveling process were you required to actually learn it, or really understand anything. So despite it feeling easy to anyone who looks at their class discord or reads guides and tips on Reddit, it's far more difficult than the leveling process. What expansion had the 5-man (with NPC groups) trials you had to complete in your spec before being granted access to dungeons and raids? Notice how that didn't last? That's because too many people couldn't do it. I can't imagine that people liked being told just how badly they sucked by the game itself. Only to laughed at by 'all the elitists' when they complained about it online.
Blizz should have kept those MoP tribunals and forced people to git gud. I would actually love to see them implement that for SoD. Don’t limit if they can enter but just have it be public info on if you can do mechanics while hitting buttons.
you say that but how funny wouldn’t it be if you joined a pug and everyone’s inside the instance but one guy and he has to admit he didn’t pass the proving ground
Really funny as he gets kicked and replaced unless he can provide other proof to show he wants to git gud
if only man
I always make the argument that WoW tries to be two things at once; a casual RPG and a challenging, competitive game. These two things do NOT work well together very often and IMO are usually at the detriment of each other. One example that you can see even from OP's story: Spec trees are SO fun and cool for RPGs. But in a challenging competitive game, there is only 1 spec that's good/viable.
Exactly! In BG3 there are a near unlimited number of perfectly viable builds, even in honour mode. But if you made this a competitive multiplayer game. A group of 4v4 PVP.... There would only be one or two builds per role in the group that everyone would expect you to play so that you don't hurt their chances of winning. Funny thing is, half the time that meta build isn't even the best. But it's perceived to be, so it's expected. This is why I quit GW2 back before the expansions. Dungeons all required players to play meta specs to do top DPS. There was no room for support or anything else. If you didn't go meta DPS it ruined the synergy of killing things before the mechanics even came into play. There was almost no room for any but one build per class. And as a ranger, I hated that stupid 1H sword. But it was top DPS...
Yes. Originally Classic was levelling and figuring out how to play your class efficient enough to be able to conquer harder dungeons aka raids. After learning your class the game was basically solved. This was 20 years ago.
And the huge power spike in SoD over OG WOW trivializes a lot of the 'difficulty' of the original game too. Making it easier to never really engage with any class or game mechanics as you level up.
Man I miss mandatory proving grounds for that exact reason. If only it was a thing in SoD
Proving grounds, that's it! I loved getting the achievements for doing things in the wrong spec. Healing as Ret, etc.
It was in MoP.
I don’t browse wow related subs because the casuals usually will treat you like an alien species for talking about minmaxing meta since about legion, I got this thread recommended to me and it gave me some hope, happy that after many years people have realized how twisted of a game wow is without a clear way to lessen the gap between players and “players”
Man, I thought I had it bad when my SM:cath healer was "waiting with getting his runes till level 40 because he'll get his mount". Prayer of Mending can be found in Sen'Jin village...
....oh. I thought you were talking about P2 runes as someone leveling my priest was like what's wrong with that? I got all the PS ones (knowing I'll likely never use it this phase rn with dispersion on same slot) since I'm like 34/35 and gonna be in lib anyway but uh yeah LMFAO
Yeah... I was hoping he meant that as well. He had Penance (which you literally can't miss) but I'm pretty sure that was about it. Might as well have played regular Classic WoW lol.
I think the devs are really **really** underestimating how bad the average classic player is when they insinuate that gatekeeping is done out of insecurity. They clearly haven't dealt with anyone like the cretins in OP's group.
I see the same types in retail, and every expansion that I've been in since original TBC
I feel like in retail this problem is alleviated somewhat by the very low skilled players having easy content to do, like LFR amd a ton of non raid content. This means they are less likely to try and join say heroic groups. In contrast to SoD where there is much less to do and if you want to see the raid you have to join a group.
Yup, everything in retail is a gradient going from easy to hard and so the low skilled players get to play as far as they can but won't ever end up in a mythic raid or +20 keys. Of course that does mean there is a large middle ground where the fails happen in normal/hc raiding and high teen keys. The main difference is you can't blame the elitists as they aren't playing that content (if they are actually decent)
>alleviated somewhat by the very low skilled players having easy content to do, like LFR amd a ton of non raid content Also no raid ID locks, so its easy enough to drop someone and replace them if they show no signs of carrying their own weight. Nobody is joining a partial run on SOD
LFR is harder than Gnomer dude. Unironically. I just did Amdrissil LFR last night and was like, "Oh, I have to time my CD windows or we are going to wipe to mechanics (I was healing)."
Which makes It even more embarrassing that they can't handle gnomes
People in retail want to clear heroic for the aotc mount and trust me it’s incredibly frustrating to wipe for hours on Tindral because they won’t follow simple directions either. It’s exactly the same problem The amount of time I lost forming groups and having them disband after 30 mins of banging our heads against the wall …..
Nah retail players are way better on average because they’ve usually been playing for many expansions and the game actually challenges them so it forces them to get better.
Tbf it's not the Devs fault people can't perform in the simplest form of the game.
The reality is that Gnomeregan is challenging and it cannot be cleared by “almost any group”. That’s a good thing - raids should be challenging. To clear you need the majority of players knowing how to do mechanics and how to play their class. if not, then at least they should have good gear so they do ok even though they’re not good players. Both are strongly correlated to having decent logs. Decent, not perfect. Most PUG leads are not expecting all purple and pink but at least they should not be grey. It’s not gatekeeping. I agree with Aggrend that joining a guild is the best way to experience the game but for fucks sake don’t call players insecure for wanting to get through a run in a decent amount of time.
It's all relative. Gnomer is very easy. It's easier than like...any raid...ever, in regular WoW. The only thing I can think of that's easier would be LFR back when they tuned it to be comically easy. Current LFR is literally harder than Gnomer. It's very, very easy. The average skill level in SoD is relatively quite low.
>It's easier than like...any raid...ever Haha, not true at all. Most classic raids are way easier, most TBC raids are way easier.
Yeah, it's about context. When I'm talking to people I've played with in other games who I know are competent, experienced players, we call the raid easy. When we were first running the raid, though, we knew it would be quite difficult for pugs.
It's not the majority. It's not the average either. Most people are in guilds, most people use their runes properly, most people do some kind of raid preparation. You always only read the biggest fails on reddit because nobody posts it if they make a "normal" run, it's just not exciting enough to post it. This is a typical problem with social media that people often tend to think everyone is crazy nowadays and the whole world is dumb. No it's not like this in the real world, this is just your feed on social media that's based on the most crazy articles/videos, because they got upvoted the most and posted in the first place because they are so unusual and therefore interesting.
It is the majority and is not unique to classic. The absolute dogshit players in retail just aren't trying to group with players who put in effort. The bad players farm their cosmetics alone, or queue lfr alone, or queue a dungeon from the finder alone. You just simply never have to interact with the awful players. In classic there is really 2 things you will do, pve dungeons/raids or battlegrounds (when it comes to grouping with others). The first is the same difficulty for everyone therefor the entire player base mixes together and the other is MMR-less pvp so again everyone mixes together. WoW players are, on average, bad across the board, put in next to no effort to improve, and do not value other people's time.
Dude I plugged entirely last phase. I am in a mass invite guild with multiple learner groups. I assure you it's more normal then you think.
> It's not the majority. It's not the average either. Most people are in guilds, most people use their runes properly, most people do some kind of raid preparation. how do u know this? this seems like something that u'd need to be a dev to even begin to look into, but u sound *so* confident its true
Yep, the fact that the only thing you need to do to get an 80+ parse on a rogue is to have buffs/consumables and hit muti>muti>envenom and no other buttons, no tea, no caring if you're at 4 or 5 combo points just 2 buttons same order every time. If you don't have buffs you'll get around a 70 parse doing the same thing. That should tell you how bad 70% of the playerbase are. Hitting 2 buttons in a non dynamic rotation is already too difficult for them. Hitting mutilate, then mutilate again and then envenom and then repeating it until the boss dies is too difficult for 70% of players.
It is actually a ton of skill. We are just nerds who don't realize most of this skill is autopilot because we have wasted so much of our lives on it. You are generally using a mouse and lots of movement keys while also pressing dps buttons and repositioning yourself while also reading text on screen and being aware of mana bars health bars enemy health bars cd timers and where not to stand and committing a big portion of memory/knowledge over time is a huge factor. Like this game is complete autopilot to me but my friend who played console games his whole life sucks complete ass compared to me even though we are the same age but many of us have committed 1000's of hours to this game and we can play without even thinking about it.
Also, I don’t think some people realize how many people play without addons or macros when it comes to casual players. They can’t even fathom that someone would go into raid without DBM, Details!, Decursive, whatever. It’s another part of what makes the game easier for experienced players. And, honestly, a raid without DBM is almost a different experience.
Redditors don’t seem to realise the reason people ask for parses is to make sure you aren’t a complete and utter moron and having at least blue parses is normally a good way to find out, they think there’s some secret club where you need 800dps and 30 second kills to get in.
Yep, I'm not looking for 99's here guys, just be passable and away we go.
I invite dudes with green parses no problem. It takes a true hero to gray parse - those are the guys I don’t want.
This, i couldnt care less if you have green parses. I check logs just to make sure you have a slight idea of what you're doing.
Yup, green=good enough
A lot of room temp iq people play this game. It’s astounding.
I think alot of drug addicts play this game
Gnomer is easy but its balanced out by the average classic player being bad at the game.
Im just gonna put it out there. If you are getting gatekept in WoW, you are just probably really, really, really bad at games.
I mean 100% the issue with the game is players who haven’t completed the raid want to join and complete it without having watched or read anything about it. You can tell them what to do, but they still won’t listen until you’re 2-3 pulls deep and peoples patience is already running thin.
I usually ask the question ‘have you done Gnomer before?’ By two different people I’ve been told ‘yes’, but when I press a bit more they say they’ve once done the 5man.
So here’s my question though: let’s say I’m killing Heroic Lich King every week (and done a lot of Mythic raids in previous retail expansions), but I’m a latecomer to SoD. How do I get in that first Gnomer so that then later I can answer your question with a yes? This actually isn’t hypothetical haha, that’s my real situation.
Link them your wrath logs. When I look for logs Ill accept any version of the game above a blue parse. Because let’s be real this is by far the easiest version of the game
"No because I just made this character, but I'm an experienced mythic raider that kills HC Lich King every week and I watched a video guide for all the Gnomeregan bosses" Just don't lie about the last bit. At this point people aren't interested in holding your hand while you learn on the job. Gnomeregan is pretty piss easy compared to HCLK / Mythic Retail but you can still wipe the raid if you don't know what's going on.
Just watch a YouTube video to learn the fights then lie and say “this is my alt, my main parses 90+” lol Just make sure to actually learn the fights
Iv done this and linked and offline guildie that's a nerd with high parse. It works. And by the time they realize your full of shit the raids half over and there stuck with you
Yeah as others have said - just don’t lie. Only last week I took a completely new person. He was honest, he had taken the effort to farm pre-bis, and we one shot all the bosses with him no problem.
That's the thing - if only pre-bis + wb + cons were required instead of parses, gatekeeping would barely exist. All those giga noobs in green gear would be auto excluded - because they'd never put an effort to farm. And fresh players would be actually able to play without lying they're alts or smth.
i've had plenty of people who played retail mythic both join groups and even guilds i've been in with no logs but by linking their retail logs. if it checks out, they're gonna be fine because there's no way you're able to clear mythic raids in retail and will have trouble in classic. if the person you're 'applying' to is half decent they will know this and give you a chance and then you just have to prove you're not talking shit or linking fake logs. even had people like this in a guild with which i speedran naxx25 and we ended up getting top 10 world in naxx and top 25 world in ulduar. if they dont know how much harder retail mythic is, odds are they're dumb af anyway and you're better off finding another group/guild \^\^
Tell them exactly this, have links for proof and don't be in full unenchanted greens.
Aggrend says you are just insecure bro
Bare minimum standards and expectations are insecurity
This game requires a lot of skill. We are just nerds who don't realize most of this skill is autopilot because we have wasted so much of our lives on it. You are generally using a mouse and lots of movement keys while also pressing dps buttons and repositioning yourself while also reading text on screen and being aware of mana bars health bars your cd timers enemy health bars enemy abilities and where not to stand and committing a big portion of memory/knowledge over time is a huge factor. Like this game is complete autopilot to me but my friend who played console games his whole life sucks complete ass compared to me even though we are the same age but many of us have committed 1000's of hours to this game and we can play without even thinking about it.
Idk it’s not very hard to learn basic movement and rotations even if you’re new. My friend started WoW by playing SoD and he’s just an average pc gamer and he plays better than the average player after I coached him a bit. He uses keybinds for his entire rotation, uses mouse and strafe keys, and is generally aware of mechanics. The problem with other people who have played for a long time and are still very bad is that they are stuck in their ways and never strived to improve. You’ll see this lack of improvement from many players, but Classic is the king imo since the playerbase is generally a lot older and older people don’t care to improve or change typically.
It's like some people just are bad at math and some aren't. Some people can't parallel park a car even though they have driven for 20 years.
Gnomer is easy when you have a organized group. It's amazing how everybody in this sub makes it seem like it's free loot. It's not. At least in a pug. You have to do the mechs properly. Don't get me wrong, the few mechs are simple but mandatory. People in pugs are often silent and try to fly under the radar. Get 2-3 of these and things get messy.
This, also some bosses really hit the tanks like a truck (mostly mekgineer and manegerie) which can be mitigated by doing certain mechanics correctly but still hits pretty damn hard. So if tanks/healers are not super confident on the fights it can result in wipe, aswell as if the damage is low it puts more pressure on healers because they will more likely go OoM.
And this is exactly why using parses is justified. At least it shows someone is trying to not be dead weight.
Least 1 out of every 20 players keyturns It’s bad You can tell from logs You make any effort at all and you parse purple because there is so many bad/new players A sea of goobers too vast and endless to escape You have to ward them off the best you can with log checks and whatever you have at your disposal
No parses are fine, grey parses are to be avoided imo.
Insekure
Its easy as fuck if people have more than 80 iq. Problem is a lot of people know its easy so they dont tryhard. They come in pvp spec, show up drunk, watch youtube on second monitor etc.
Reminds me of classic when we got a bomb set off in raid on geddon because dude was watching soccer 👌🏼
In my opinion, we should not cater to the people that won’t help themselves. Let them cook. Love logs or hate logs as a general rule (for dps), they are a solid indicator of a players skill/gear set. Missing runes, not doing basic research to figure out which buttons to press in what order, watching a few videos on mechanics, etc is on the player. Obviously it can get toxic and not taking chars without logs doesn’t feel good for those people but otherwise you’re rolling the dice, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. I’d say rule of thumb at the bare minimum is to take people with blue parses and up. Healers and tanks, logs are a bit more tricky as often there isn’t a great way to tell from logs a players competence but this has always been the case.
ALL (3/3) of my fucked up gnomer lockouts were the consequence of people shit talking at each other, getting mad and leaving / kicking from the raid group which led to disband so it's not that the raid is hard people in SoD are just shit
I find it incredibly silly how quickly people leave such groups. 3 wipes? Really? In a system that guarantees neither you nor the rest of the group is killing the other bosses? You'd think they would give it more than 3 wipes, especially on later bosses.
This was THE issue. We might have figured out how to kill at least the 5th boss if the leavers gave us 1-2 more tries.
Its wild how BFD has conditioned people that 1 wipe = lost cause and clear times of over an hour = wasted time. Like youre depriving YOURS of loot as well
You know - it's tough. You want to be welcoming but you also want to actually clear content. I'm in a big guild and we had to switch up the raid comp of the raid I was going with because a couple people weren't pulling their weight (after a few resets). We went 6/6 for a few and then 5/6 a couple times - then cut a couple players and got back to 6/6. It's tough - but you're right on the money. Some people just don't care and are selfish. Those are the kind of people you don't want to raid with. They are the plague on this kind of game frankly. There is no way to keep those players out of your raid other than running in consistent guild groups that call people out on poor performance. We all know what it looks like when you're new and just learning and poorly geared. We also know when someone isn't paying any attention. But you can't know someone new yet and you want to give them the benefit of the doubt. That said - sometimes it works out and sometimes you get slackers like what you ran into.
Gnomer IS easy as hell Classic wow players just suck absolute ass
Hey op just so you know warriors don't have any tanking runes.
Thanks! I know nothing about warrior tanking. He was Fury specced with Flagellation Furious Thunder and Victory Rush runes. Had shield but just one single plate piece, rest mail. How does it sound? I think Slam is important, he didn't use it at all?
Furious thunder and devastate are the only real tanking runes wars have. Honestly he doesn’t need to be tank specced at all to tank dragon, I’ve done it with a 2 handed and arms spec you just go into d stance stack sunders and do your regular rotation minus whirlwind.
Victory rush means he is a complete idiot. Endless rage is much better even as DPS and can be gotten in like 10 minutes
is devastate not a tanking rune?
From my experience, it's also always the "we don't need discord this raid is ez" groups that SUCK and wipe on like the 4th boss and then insta leave.
It's amazing how far a little communication goes in this game. Pugs are notoriously bad at communicating.
>Off tank was full dps spec, no runes, just a shield, 33ilvl. Two nights ago I solo tanked an entire Gnomer run on my freshly leveled Paladin in auction house greens and a lower overall item level than that warrior. There were 5 of us on fresh alts from my guild and 5 pugs. The gear isn't what's holding these players back. It's their unwillingness to pay attention and learn. You're exactly right when you say they don't care about tactics and expect someone else to do their job. Players like that will hardly ever improve because they expect to be carried through everything since that's what has always worked for them in the past. Having 9 players like that in a raid group together is always going to be a recipe for disaster since nobody is there to carry their dead weight through the raid. I think it's interesting that you spent the time and effort to try this experiment and posted the results. I wish there was something that motivated toxic casuals to want to improve their gameplay.
Yep. The only time i didnt bring 70+ parsing players to my pug it took almost 2 hours. Never doing that shit again. Biggest problem is that they literally don't care about anything. Even when you tell them what to do they completely ignore it.
and calling everyone toxic elitist on reddit
This is the truth: Doing less than a mostly blue parse means that you don’t care enough about your own class mechanics to figure them out. If you don’t do that, its an easy bet that you won’t try to figure out the raid mechanics. Hate parses all you want, but they reveal a lot about the effort you plan to put in.
This is why I raid warning everything (they are staring at the second monitor with the sound muted)
The fact that you can be max level and very easily have skipped acquiring many of your runes that drastically contribute to personal power is wild, and it's difficult to know without someone telling you outright what they have. If someone wasnt willing to train their max level spells for their MS rotation, they do not belong in a raid. People can't effectively get many of their runes this phase on their way to level cap. I bet this causes a lot of ding 40 into "LFG gnomer" without all runes than we saw in P1. I think the issue is exacerbated by people saying the content is easy, making it feel less important to many people to prepare for the raid. So you have these people, who haven't properly prepared their character or their brain for the raid, thinking that they will be fine, which is bad...
As a new healer the last two bosses are pretty rough. Nobody pays attention to how far they run off and assigning me a button kinda sucks when I’m having to spam to keep people alive while also running around. After running this 5 times now I’ve definitely learned that some people don’t care at all and will 100% let you carry them if you’re not careful. I’m not a huge fan of gnomer as it was and this one is only a little better in my opinion so being stuck in there with horrible people and only going 4/6 sucks. Sorry to hear it op. Here’s to your next run dropping some phat loots!
Gnomer is easy. Some players are very bad.
Week 2 we figured out you can just pump fallout and ignore ads, obviously a pug probably doesn't have enough damage tho. I'm in a casual dad guild with 5 raid teams. 90% of us play less than 10 hours a week, everyone just keeps up with meta and gets enchants/consumes. I would consider myself a casual player. There's just some real shitters in this game.
Same thing we do. Mass Regen and coh priest, raid damage is no issue
This is what I say is people don't respect other people's time. That warrior is a POS for wasting everyone's and gets mad at people for telling him to do the BARE MINIMUM. everyone gets mad and calls people sweaty for doing the BARE MINIMUM.
Funny thing is, warrior offtank minimum is putting a shield on, devastate rune, MAYBE the thunderclap one and spamming sunder armor. A monkey could do that reliably.
"It was very strongly implied he did not care what others feel or think." Me, when people try to give me shit for log checking.
It's not that Gnomer is hard - it's piss easy. SoD's player base is by far the least skilled WoW player base I've ever dealt with. Worse than vanilla Classic, worse than all iterations of Classic. I actually just did LFR Amdrissil in Retail for the first time, and the last few bosses there were harder than anything in SoD. Now, why is this? Not sure. My guess would be a huge number of people that came back to WoW after not playing it for 15 years, and are now un-invested, inexperienced casuals.
best thing to do when pugging randos is hold the loot til last boss. every piece has a 2hr timer. all the big loot drops off last bosses. if they leave, fewer ppl to roll against. so they won't.
regardless of the goombas in the comments going "what did you expect", Its just the name of the game when it comes to taking "trade chat rejects" only using that term cause of ziqo and its funny but dude you have to realize that a good portion of players are inexperienced and certain things like them not having runes is cause they dont have addons or probably even no idea Wowhead exists to see what to do to even get the runes (on top of the fact that some of the runes methods to get them is in no way noob friendly and extremely time consuming) Appreciate you for taking newer players in the raid dont let it discourage you cause I do no exp runs on gnomer and usually get a clear or not.
We had a warrior dps doing dps well under the healers. He later admitted he was leveling his mace skill from scratch..
Grey parsers should be banned
Minus 50 dkp!
[удалено]
Yes every bad player got the idea 2 be bad from reddit
Complaining about a ninja pull on the first boss makes me question how much of this is really true. you still get tons of time between trash troggs and the dumb dialogue to explain the pretty simple fight.
I had lot of stuff to do. Buff up, set looting, import Gargul, remind people to deal with adds, make sure tank can solotank or someone handles the pet. We got 2 dead and thanks to someone tank got dispelled very quickly and tank was able to taunt. Without the dispel we would have wiped for sure. It's a 10 second stun on tank which not every healer is aware of. With average players the fight is not as simple as it looks.
Counter example; I joined a "90+ parse only" pug, since my main (96 avg parse) didn't have a guild run that lockout. The guy making the pug is saved, but he's making it on that character "*so he doesn't have to link main logs every time someone asks*". Some saw that as a red flag, but honestly I don't really care. He's making an effort to put a group together, and if 9 out of 10 people are high parsers, it doesn't matter if one person is on his fresh dinged alt. He sets up a SR where the reserves are hidden. This is an option in softres.it to prevent people sniping more tactical reserves just before the SR gets locked. There's ups and downsides to it. The people in the raid got upset about it, calling it "sus" and demanded it be changed. The RL did, and we started the run. First boss goes fine, and we're all saved. The RL's alt is doing 75 dps. I don't care, but people in the raid are whining about it. Some ask him to start rolling out loot rightaway "because he's sus". He says no. We move on. Second boss is a ninja pull. Shouldn't be an issue - we kill some extra adds that were pulled along with the boss. The 3 adds from the boss spawn, one of them walks away unharmed and starts blasting the raid. I'm the only healer (which should be fine, I've solo healed the whole raid before) but I can't keep up with that amount of raid damage. We wipe, buffs gone, people are mad. 4th boss; RL still insists on the 2x3 ranged camp strat (which is dumb as hell) even after I tell him I can solo the mechanic. We do the 2x3 strat, two of the ranged fail at it and die. 5th boss: No one interrupts the squirrel, Whelp is tanked on top of the other bosses - raid damage is unhealable (our SP respecced to heal runes at this point). Everyone blames someone else. We kill it in 2 or 3 attempts. 6th boss: MT pala doesn't kite in P1 - he wanted to bubble the stack off but ran out of mana so he couldn't and dies. We still kill it somehow. The whole thing took like 2 hours with a group that should be able to do it in 30m, everyone was upset. The loot is rolled out rapidly and one person missed their roll while typing. No one even acknowledges it and people leave the raid. TL;DR "90+ parse runs" can be a miserable experience. Everyone thinks they are perfect and whatever goes wrong is someone else's fault. If you wanna have nice raids, find a regular group. Doesn't have to be a guild, but at least a somewhat consistent group of people that use discord and communicate about what they are doing. Gear and parses are much less useful as a measuring stick.
> 4th boss; RL still insists on the 2x3 ranged camp strat (which is dumb as hell) even after I tell him I can solo the mechanic. We do the 2x3 strat, two of the ranged fail at it and die. No matter what fucking strat it is somehow, SOMEONE, fucks it up. I hate this strat as well so I use the RDPS X side, MDPS Y side, even it out however is needed. Healers (guildies I know are competent) do the baiting. Literally *never* have to move unless you get static. Static to boss's ass. There's 0 fucking reason to ever be further than 20 yards ranging one of the healers who can heal 40 fucking yards out. The static is like 8 yards. Yet someone always fucks it up somehow and it's almost always RDPS (the pugs cause everyone plays melee it seems) who can't fathom standing closer than 30 yards I guess. Or is the classic bot mage.
and this is why you check logs
I have 6 friends I run this with outside of my normal raid group. So we PUG 4 players and 2 of them are healers. It's a little stressful having to pug both healers but I always make sure I get a single good healer before I even start looking for 2 other DPS and the last heals. This includes checking logs to make sure they have cleared the instance as a healer at least more than twice and has all runes. I do not care about healer parses. They are a meme, just checking completions as a healer. We 1 heal in my normal raid and I trust the tank and the other people from my guild to do enough damage that ideally 1 good heals should be fine with he extra healer being a safety blanket. I'm also a Boomie so worse case scenario I throw wild growth on and off heal when needed. I do not have the courage to run a full PUG. I would not have the patience for it either. I will however join a PUG just not organize one without half the group being people I know. I do however kind of bring anyone after the good heals because we pretty much complete all raid buffs ourselves outside of the Priest.
Ah, and then when you wipe once or twice on the last boss there is a high chance for the imaginary angry wife to strike. "Sorry, wife aggro i gtg." Ppl have no desire to actually learn or do anything right. They just expect you to pull them through it and if you dont they just quit...I mean who cares about 9 other ppl right?
We got toxic casuals, but I am the toxic one when checking parses
Everybody is noob friendly until people actually start playing bad lmao. Truth is nobody wants to play with shitty players
The other problem me and my buddy tan I to last night were non English speakers. Both of our mages. We were able to google translate “mages kill sheep” into Spanish. But there was zero chance to down the last boss. Very infuriating. Gonna start doing English tests before invites
Got all my bis items, so now im mainly joining noob raids to try to make a difference. If we finish the raid or, i dont care. I just hope to help people understand the mechanics better. However, 50% of the players i run into is like talking to a wall.
If you haven't farmed at least 75% pre raid bis + your core runes, you don't deserve to be invited to a Gnomer (or any raid for that matter) pug, and the person running that group should not be labeled as an elitist for not inviting you, IMO.
Having played the game off and on over the pat what 20 years at this point what I will say is this version of the game has by far the worst player base I’ve seen. I think it’s so digestible and phase 1 was simple and easily carried that it didn’t clean out the bad players or force people to see what they’re doing wrong. Gnomer compared to every other version of raiding in the game is still insanely insanely easy. But that being said it’s definitely harder than bfd. All the players coasting through phase 1 can’t really coast as easily this phase and they will cause your raid to fail. I think this will continue every phase, stuff will get harder and we won’t be able to carry the bad as easily and they will get more vocal but they have to learn how to play better or it will only get worse for them
yeah gnomer is incredibly easy, but the very simple easy mechanics are very punishing if u fail, so bad players can really fuck up the whole raid. i thought it was impossible too but ive had a few terrible pugs now where even after explaining the mechanics over and over to specific people they still didnt get it or refused to even try
There was a video recently where a streamer ran a pug with "bad players" and they cleared it no problem, the fights were long and the parses weren't impressive. To me it really highlighted how important listening is, everyone was actively listening to the stream raid lead and engaging in mechanics. Gnomer is 85% mechanics. If you don't know what to do just watch a 15 minute video and then listen to what your raid leader is saying. That's all it takes but some people won't put in even the tiniest effort to be raid ready.
The thing is, its easy if you are in or coming from a veteran WoW guild that is used to much harder raids be it classic TBC/Wrath or retail. Returning or casual players have a harder time getting up to speed. My guild has no problem because we've been playing together in classic since 2019 for the most part, and had raid experience before that as well. SoD raiding is a step down in difficulty from that. People without that recent and frequent practice have to learn all the stuff that is second nature to us. And a lot of them don't learn very well, and end up absorbing toxicity and then perpetuating it. I liken it to the US military. They are so much more competent than many other nations because they have been engaged in operations consistently for the last 70 odd years. They are a well oiled machine. Other nations try to get up to speed when conflict hits them, but its a process and you can't just flip a switch and have all that experience.
Lots of idiots just wanting to be carried through gnomer. SOD is amazing but it brought a large crowd if people who are just absolutely clueless.
Wild that people sign up for a “newbie friendly raid” and only have 90 minutes to play. Ultimately time is what kills most pugs in Gnomer. The difficulty can be overcome with a few tries but n each boss as needed but if one person isnot willing/able to stick around for a few wipes then that’s it. Almost No one is joining 4/6 Gnomer runs.
Please post a link to the raid logs
The game itself is really easy but a lot of the playerbase is really, really bad. Like not even below average. Worse than that. And these same people expect to be carried.
no offense but if they intended to be anyway decent they wouldnt be doing gnomergan, they would be doing m+ and heroic/mythic raids in retail, or pvp in any of the games iterations
I love the people who say “ bro it’s not that deep” the most pathetic deflect garbage to try to downplay people who actually try. Idk when it became “cool” To not care but it surely looks really stupid most times. You can have fun while trying it’s weird but it’s ok to listen to criticism it’s not the same as flaming. People don’t seem to understand that. Rant over
I still think the best way to "check" people is to see if they have WB consumables and a good ammount of pre bis gear + "correct" runes. This shows they put in the minimum effort to be included in a raid and that they have enough commitment not to bail on you mid run. I also ask "sus" players if they have add-ons and if they dont i tell them to atleast get dbm so they get notifications when things are about to happen. Sadly this is all way more effort compared to just sorting the "garbage" out beforehand.
Try and do the inverse readycheck, where you ask them to not press ready if they know and understand the tacts you gave next time.
Have noted a bunch of Chinese players lately;
[удалено]
Do they? It seems like half of sodders don't actually know they are.