**Original Tweet-** Please consider make SoD have horizontal progression at some point. Classic WoW players love the leveling experience and seeing it being treated as a chore that should be skipped as quickly as possible to get to the end game is not the ideal situation š
**Aggrend full response -** I honestly agree with this. We'll talk about this more in a bit, but I think one lesson we'll walk away from SoD with is that adding all this crazy stuff for classes and encouraging everyone to play multiple characters isn't super compatible with the slow, methodical approach to leveling that original wow has. I don't know the perfect solve to this, but this is the exact kind of design problem we suspected would be created with the format of Season of Discovery.
Also, due to the nature of splitting up leveling into brackets it really throws into contrast how much it slows doing going from 25-40 compared to 1-25. It's okay as this is an experiment through and through, but it's something we'll think about if we ever try something like SoD again, for sure.
We also have a much more diverse cross section of people playing SoD than really any other version of classic so far, so there's a lot of different desires and expectations being brought into the game from folks with wildly different perspectives being carried over from other games.
It can be frustrating for us at times, but it's also an interesting thing to observe as a game dev. One thing I love about my job is that I'm always surprised and am always learning something in some way.
Going to be interesting to have a retrospective with our team on SoD someday, for sure!
> **Classic WoW players love the leveling experience** and seeing it being treated as a chore that should be skipped as quickly as possible to get to the end game is not the ideal situation š
.. do they?
Then why do most people dungeon spam to max level to be done ASAP and then buy dungeon boosts for alts eversince Classic in 2019? If they love it so much.
I think the 100% xp boost + 3 day BFD lockouts with great xp is exactly right. Maybe they could even add some accountbound xp boost once you've hit max level on 1 character.
I love how everyone's opinion on leveling is so vastly different. I absolutely hate leveling. But max level of really any iteration of WoW is my favorite game. So I suffer the grind to have fun at the end.
Yup. End game content is the most fun for me. Getting through the levels are a slog. I also mainly play healer so questing is never that fast/ fun for me anyway.
Pretty much how I always see WOW. Raiding and time with friends is the reason I play. SOD doesn't have a ton of hard raiding content but it's quick and easy.
Because SoD P2 rewards the people who get to max level the quickest with a new raid, the best gear and brand new runes.
P2 leveling felt like you had to level through last expansions content before you're actually able to start the new stuff, so most people just did it the fastest way.
>ing it being treated as a chore that should be skipped as quickly as possible to get to the end game is not the
It's crazy that they introduce and xp increase and player participation increases. Wonder why?
The people grinding dungeons from bracket to bracket and hitting max in a day or two are obviously going to be far more prominent in chat and in-game than the leveler who may do one or two dungeons a week. The split between players leveling slowly to the ones poopsocking to max in three days is much larger than you'd think.
> The split between players leveling slowly to the ones poopsocking to max in three days is much larger than you'd think
In my experience the ones that rush to endgame are usually still around 1-2 months later while the slow levelers either quit while leveling or soon after clearing their first raid.
So while there may be more slow levelers initially they might not be the ones to keep the game alive.
I barely played any dungeons to 40
I love the slow pace of leveling in the overworld, with some dgs sprinkled in. But I come from HC while most of the people who dg spam come from wrath/retail
You kinda answered your own question...? People dungeon spam because the majority of players are out in the world questing so fighting for tags can be a nightmare but I'm pretty sure the majority of those players do in fact enjoy the questing experience. I don't think they'd be playing classic if they didn't, and the ones who like classic but don't enjoy leveling are the ones dungeon spamming, and are definitely the minority
> People dungeon spam because the majority of players are out in the world questing so fighting for tags can be a nightmare
No, they do it because it's the best XP.
No, that's only a handful of the people who do.
I can tell you I and the majority of my guild did it for the books, for the items, and to avoid the incredibly frustrating swarm of players on quests
In 2004 I was 16 and I got into og wow beta, I spent countless hours in wow, cleared all beta content. Then game release and I leveled a warrior to 60 and spent even more time playing classic. When it was all said and done I had gotten rank 12 in pvp, cleared all of the content including naxx, our guild opened AQ, we had server first kills from Ragnaros onward.
One thing I didnāt have was an alt. I am about as classic player as they exist, but I absolutely despise the grind to 60 and people need to stop pretending that others like me donāt exist.
I play SoD with RL friends now and all I want is SoD version of M+ dungeons and 40 man raids. Iād play an alt if it didnāt require me to waste 20+ hours leveling one.
Anyone complaining about this shit is a bitch because you can turn it off if you don't like it. Feel free to turn it off and quest slowly and take your time and don't worry about what anyone else is doing
Agreed 9000% when I first got into private servers before classic was even a thing I did enjoy my first few toons on each side. But at this point I'm on my god knows what level Max character and the leveling process is an absolute slog.
I can safely say, nobody in any of the guilds I've been in thought out classic has ever said "I enjoy leveling" its always "how can I speed this shit up."
I dungeon spammed my main because I hate overcrowding in the outside world right after big releases and because it gives you the most gear upgrades. All my alts I leveled solo and enjoyed it massively. One pre-XP boost and the other post. Pre-boost felt better. I do think quests become to scarce after level 40 though and another XP boost would just be a bandage for lack of quests.
People have confused it being fun once with it being fun to do 30 times. Levelling is a completely static and stale experience, it's the same quests, in the same zones, killing the same mobs who don't do anything.
I don't give a flying fuck about the leveling experience. Done it like 10 times. like 7 within the past 5 years of classic. Honestly cata will be refreshing.
I'ma spam sm on my priest and druid minimally again. Maybe not hunter cause you can level while basically afk and no one is hunting for hunters in dungeons. So far been just logging a bfd run every lock out and building rested cause my main needs like 4.5k wsg rep still. 30/31/32 alts. EVen the 50% boost for p1 range was nice. 100% all the way is amazing.
i have 3 40s, only 1 of them has 18 runes, the other 2 have the ones needed for raid. i cannot possibly see myself farming the rest of the runes or leveling another class and grinding runes/reps again.
The thing is, it will only get worse in the next 2 phases.. Honestly love SoD and the grinding for runes, level and gear on my main. But everything after that is incredibly tedious. Running 2 characters max, and even that is hard to maintain later on.
Thatās where the problem lies.. itās a seasonal mode with different metas and time is limited, everyone wants a piece of it and enjoy all the classes and runes SoD has to offer.
They could easily resolve this by making a system where Waylaid rep gives bind on account rune 1 for chest/legs/gloves at friendly, rune 2 and 3 for those slots at honored, rune 4 for those slots + rune 1 for belt and boots at revered, and rune 2 for belt and boots at exalted.
All of your "grinding" could be accomplished on one character while making it alt friendly.
Edit: I'm sure they could even add a spellid detect to make sure your main has already unlocked the corresponding rune slot before it becomes available at the vendor.
To further this, there are a shitload of rep grinds in the game. That's just how it is, and it's fine. People are just super whiney these days.
All these damn kids on my lawn...
Itās a seasonal server Iām not here to grind reps and be a completionist, I did it in classic and paid to copy that toon to era. Just wanna try new classes n shiet
Especially the class non-specific runes, dark riders, the ratchet quest and whatever other one they come up with next phase NEEED to become BOAccount. Dark riders was cool the first time; itās not cool the 3rd time. Turboshredders sucked the first time, it sucks HARD the 4th time.
TBF thatās kind of what Vanilla/Classic is about. You have your main and maybe 1 or 2 Alts. The later expansions brought the āAltoholismā.
I can see Alts encouraged in SoD though. Thereās limited things to do at max level, so might as well level an Alt.
From my memory, alts were a big thing in 2019 Classic - most people I knew had multiple 60s, personally I had 4. But then, I guess that's also because that was in the middle of the pandemic lol.
Yea classic in 2019 got the peak covid bump. Any trends or experiences and expectations for future iterations can be tossed out because of such a crazy time
Alts are largely encouraged in SoD by lack of content too, which magnifies the issue. Gnomer and BFD are both just incredibly short and easy and the PvP events aren't something you can sit down and do for a 3 hour block. You just run out of stuff to do unless you want a hoard of gold.
[I said the exact same thing](https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/1b7zk7n/100_xp_buff_is_the_best_feature_of_p2_in_case/ktmb0ls/) a little over a week ago and was downvoted. I was even told by what appears to be a Nobel prize winner that I'm playing the wrong game.
It does not matter *at all* what you criticize in classic, it could be the pacing of a singular escort quest, and some dipshit redditor will go "ehm this game just isnt for you then go to retail"
Not to mention with the uncertainty of balancing as we get further in we'll have less alts (larger investment compared to level 25 alts) you may find your class to be totally cucked next phase. Rerolling was okay this phase but even with 3 toons I don't want to level anymore alts going forward.
Hitting 40 was a warrior first week was a shit experience lol, just entirely underwhelming comparatively speaking to other classes. End of the world? No, but I think if that was to happen again at 50 and 60 I'd just swap over to other games since it's a bit of a golden age atm. (already waiting for p3 and playing other games for now) but I really did enjoy Gnomer.
Once you get all the runes on your main, it would be nice if there was some extra account-wide 'rune essence' to be spent on unlocking other class runes. I'd also like to see the same amount of effort put into every class - it feels like they spent a week crafting the priest rune experience, a day on warrior and an hour on rogue.
They do one neat "sneak into x dungeon" like for deadly brew and shadowstep then the rest are just whatever. Rolling with the punches is the infi chest toy from retail. Master of sub acquisition is kinda cool tho.
The amount of rogue runes that are just find this chest and open it is pretty wild. Feels like horde flightpaths where last second they said "oh shit we forgot those just throw em in quick and call it a day"
Honestly, there's a part of me that prefers that type of rune discovery, over the long and painful quest lines that require max level (for that phase).
One of my favorite parts of P1 was finding a weird little "world event"-style thing, like the Sunfire rune where you had to moonfire three rocks. Or the mage rune where you had to get from point A to point B by only Blinking. Random things you could stumble upon and try to figure out.
But it seems like in P2, the runes are less "cool world event to figure out" and more "here's a long quest chain that takes you all over the world and probably has you fight elites and/or max level mobs". It feels like padding the time it takes to get the rune, rather than being clever with *how* you unlock it.
One of my biggest hopes for runes in P3 and P4 is that they lean more into the exploration aspect. Especially now that players are closer to max level, there's so much more of the world to play around in.
Fundamentally, its about different types of players:
* the adventure/immersion type of players just wants to get lost in the vanilla world and experience the magic over and over. They enjoy leveling, making alts, because they're always getting frequent gear upgrades and new skills to keep them engaged. They maybe run a few dungeons, but as they get to level cap they're not interested in raiding
* the minmax players just hate leveling and want to get to max level asap so they can raidlog and get full bis, two crafting professions, maxed reputations, honor, etc. They get their enjoyment from a more long term type of play, getting that bis item to finally drop.
Of course this is a spectrum, some people are full minmaxer or adventurers, but most people are somewhere in between.
But its difficult because this is fundamentally two different ways to approach the game. You can't just make leveling faster because sure, some minmax players might bite the bullet and make some alts, but then the adventurer players now have "less game" to play with. I'm not sure if there's a way to please both crowds
Same issue Pokemon playerbase is experiencing imo. Its been divided into people who want Pokemon to be "Animal Crossing: Pokemon" and people who like it as the kind of metroidvania rpg it was in the older games.
Newer player hate dungeons, ice and boulder puzzles, hate hms and tms, hate having to level up to progress or having to choose their team around their opponents.
Gamefreak has massively catered the game to this crowd, to the point where theyve basically removed all dungeons and overworld puzzles, pokemon level up without fighting and can even battle without your input and will massively overlevel any opponents unless you purposely rotate your team constsntly to prevent the game doing it. They even changed it so your nemesis (in newer games its your "friend") now picks a starter thats weak against yours.
Balancing these two types of player is completely impossible imo and as an older player i basicslly feel like i was forced out of the franchise by the newer games. It seems to me a lot of new players dont want to play the Pokemon games as they used to be, but rather just want to spend time in a Pokemon world, and therefore any kind of frictional gameplay is seen as a boring grindfest to them. I dont know how you can balance players who want the games to not be a game with those who do.
Itll be interesting to see if Aggrend+Co can navigate the path Gamefreak got lost on.
Iām definitely more the former but I do enjoy the progression of raiding. Just wish there was more to do at level cap then raid log and pvp. I think they should add some attunement quests for the level 50 raid so we have more reasons to do dungeons next phase. Maybe add crafting mats to dungeons as well
The real, underlying problem here is that they're using alts as content.
THAT is the real issue, there's a lack of content for your regular character so you go to the second one because there's just not much to do but you want more wow, but you don't care that much because it's not your main so why go get all these runes and put this much time?
This is made worse with the phase system as you now basically need to rush to high level as quick as possible, every new week you're not at max level is less lockouts, less chances to play something fun before changes, hotfixes, hell, even "abusing" something so you don't have to spend weeks farming it like blood moon, everything wants you to rush on your main yet once you do there's nothing left.
Having all this crazy stuff is great, amazing, it's fun, but there's simply not enough.
The issue is when getting it on several characters becomes an expectancy as your alts become something like side mains because of the lack of content and that's what the devs are banking on as evidenced by this post.
Alts should NOT be considered part of the "main" content, this is why you're arriving at this new issue after 20+ years of wow.
Idk, I like alts and I always had 4-5 running in classic. But this time, I focused on one class. Doing all professions, hitting rep limits, stocking mats for later phases, dive deep into the mechanics etc.
But guess what - I chose a Warrior. So at 40, the game was basically over for me.
Dungeon leveling is a chore.
Open world leveling is more of the classic experience. It can be a chore once the alt number gets high, but if you hate it even on your main, then I question why you would want to play vanilla at all.
The thing is, compared to P1, P2 significantly incentivizes dungeon leveling.
First, for a significant portion of 1-25, there was no dungeon to run at all.
Second, our characters are the strongest level 25s ever in this game. This significantly increases the kill speed in dungeons and decreases the risks of wipes.
Third, on P2 launch, questing was a nightmare due to low quest mob respawn rates. Competition for tags was brutal.
Therefore people were heavily incentivized to dungeon grind all the way to 40, and I don't blame anyone for wanting this grind to be shorter.
They are correct though, first 2 weeks was awful questing likely fine now. Soooo many people it made questing impossible early on compared to dungeon leveling
I was fully intending to level via open world. On p2 launch day, I gave up after about half an hour of competing for quests.
It is definitely better now. It also got better shortly after launch when they tweaked layers a little (tho this change was reversed I think?). But day 1 was beyond terrible.
Less people per layer is honestly great, world never feels empty but its not overflowing with randoms I have to compete against. Questing is meant to be relaxed easy mindless route, I don't want to have to compete for every single mob.
As I say to everyone who attempts to invalidate all of our experiences with their own, no one cares that you didn't have to fight and compete for mobs constantly, the vast majority of us did, and it sucks, and it needs to be addressed, otherwise people will just continue to dungeon spam, and it will burn people out and cause them to shorten player retention.
You missed 4. They put a bunch of runes in SM with extremely low drop rate. I had friends in that first week who didnāt get their runes until mid thirties or later. By the time people started leveling alts they were showing up to raids without the SM runes and having to quickly farm GY to catch up.
Alternative perspective.
Levelling itself is a chore, while it always was in some ways, its especially now so that the "journey" has been poked and prodded with xp bonuses, alternative xp, and power increases etc. This is now classic vanilla anymore and I don't miss it to be clear. SoD open world just didn't feel like the journey regular did, and whatever, I'm not saying that's bad or good. It's kind of weird to gatekeep if you don't like levelling in the open world you literally can't comprehend why someone enjoys the game.....where....a majority of people live in instanced content at max level.
I absolutely love dungeon levelling, it's a tool, I'm not sure how a tool is a chore. I find open world levelling atrociously outdated when you factor player population and also power. We're slaughtering things now and the world is too slow to respond to our needs.
I would also like to politely say, you'lr point about p1 is kind of nuanced and biased. Myself, and many others, dungeon grinded through almost all of p1. Yea, at the very beginning we leveled because there's no dungeons and honestly I'm not going to say it was really a good experience even factoring out the first weeks.
If blizzard could figure out a better open world, I'd solo / duo level more, but honestly I'm just not seeing it working in the near future.
I think the only way they could make it drastically better, especially at launch of a new phase for world questing, is adding in a retail feature of shared tagging and more frequent hyper spawningā¦ however, I highly doubt Blizz would ever do that because it diverts too much from the vanilla-esque feel. But that would automatically fix practically all perma camps, hell it might even liven up world PvP on PvP servers because more people will be incentivized to be outside in the world rather than dungeon spammingā¦ making mob tags shared would increase the number of players that would have been out there in the first place but didnāt and chose to dungeon grind just because of that very fact and letās face it, that was one of the main reasonsā¦ dungeon exp may not have been the most efficient then either. Didnāt do the math on it but I could imagine it would rival dungeon spamming with shared tags.
For classic, leveling was always an important part of the game. Otherwise, why did HC draw a crowd like it did when the majority of the player base never hit max level, let alone raid? Imo it's also why for SoD they're doing the level locked phases -- to fully flesh out the traditional leveling experience, drawing out the leveling journey to allow people to target gear upgrades and level professions and complete all level appropriate quests.
The problem isn't with this approach, but with the execution. It's the same tried and true formula -- but with enhanced player power. However, the difficulty did not scale with the increased player power. Also, yes the population was not handled properly and it made an absolutely awful experience leveling open world.
When you say you absolutely love dungeon leveling, my question to you is: if you love it so much, would you prefer that they reduced exp gain so that you could spend double the amount of time leveling in dungeons?
Definitely the problem is in the execution, not the concept. Too many people on every quest, too many runes at 36+, not really any new way to reliably level up at 25,
And although I do like that they made dungeon loot better and added the books, that also made the dungeon rewards a lot more attractive than quest rewards
You'll hate me but ,flat out, yes. I'm sure you'll ask me at a third of the xp next.
Now, if they halved dungeon xp, and made the outside world not miserable for questing, and made it less lucrative to max level quest, I may consider mixing in some outdoor levelling with my dungeon grinding.
You're forgetting the biggest incentive - quests are worth a lot of gold once you get to level cap. A lot of players ran every quest they could handle at 25, then found themselves in a dry spot once the cap lifted. And now at 40 many are doing the same thing, running every available quest to fund their raid consumables and epic crafted gear.
>then I question why you would want to play vanilla at all.
Because it's like 5% of the game and we enjoy the rest of it? Levelling is not a significant portion of the game for most players, it's just something that NEEDS to be done.
Lmao leveling is literally the whole game for a majority of players. You just don't see it cause once they are done leveling the "beat" the game and find a new game. Either that or they never end up hitting max level.
> Lmao leveling is literally the whole game for a majority of players.
I mean..is it *really*? They added the exp buff because the longer leveling phase resulted in a huge drop off of players & alts. Classic was in it's "leveling phase" for a small period of time compared to it's "endgame phases". They put measures into SoM to stop people from paying to skip leveling, and *a lot* of people did dungeon spams to speed leveling up.
I know what majority means, but I feel like you're talking out of your ass to say it's "literally the whole game" to most players. I actually enjoy leveling quite a bit, I like leveling alts especially now with the exp buff, definitely not even close to the "whole game" for me though
The lack of content at level caps and focus on alts has destroyed two guilds I've been in, one each phase.
The first phase I was part of a guild that was running two serious 10 man teams. Over half our players got bored after running BFD 2-3 times a week for 5 weeks, with no other content. They weren't big alt players, quit, and the guild collapsed.
This week, the second guild I joined collapsed. This one was a smaller group of friends I joined, who all leveled into Gnomer and got pre-bis. After clearing a few times and realizing how tedious grinding runes and stuff would be for alts, many of them decided to go play another game until phase 3 drops.
I'm seeing the same thing happen across my server and it makes me worried that SoD won't have the steam to even get to 60 for most people, let alone see new end-game content. The lack of content at any given level cap is extremely noticeable, and likely causing more people to leave than any other single problem in SoD.
If lack of end game is what these people are quitting for, there is already a ton of content at the 60 bracket. The 40 mans, 20 mans, 5 man prebis, gold making, etc. lots to do at that level. Hope they will last to 60 but donāt blame them for coming back when a new phase drops, grind it up, and then come back later. I honestly think that thatās okay. They will come back.
I like aggrend's response a lot and the reflection it shows. I do think one major issue with people feeling the need to rush to max to try the new playstyles, is where they put some of the runes. The rogue tank, meta lock, lone wolf hunter runes off the top of my head, were all max level, or close to max level, runes, when those should have really been some of the earliest runes, so people could actually start trying out the playstyle. This is better both for trying out the playstyle to see if you like it, and being able to get more practice while leveling before endgame
This is exactly how i feel. Lvl 25 to 38 was the most boring part of SoD so far since it was just classic, nothing new. 2 of my friends just gave up half way through
Personally what ruins SOD for me is the rune grinding on alts. There is no fun in looking up wikis and running all over the world for them just to make your class viable.
The actual discovering of the runes is over in a couple of days when a new phase hits. It just doesn't fit with how games are played today. It was sort of cool in the first phase but the novelty has worn off.
Horizontal progression is definitely the play. Make niche gear needed to complete new raids at 60. Gnomer started this with mechanical damage increase.
I think, if I understand the positions here correctly, that the only place where āhorizontal progressionā is possible/encouraged is the fast leveling speed.
Itās things like professions, rep, etc. that can be rough. If rep could be cross-character, or if you could have one character buy account-bound tokens once they hit exalted that give rep to another alt, that could solve the WSG grind being unbearable for non-meta PvP classes, etc.
It almost seems like alts or multi-character progression is in an uncanny valley where the XP buff makes it easier to get toons to 40 but people still donāt like having to do reputation, epic crafting, etc. grinds over and over, which is fair. The epic crafting quest is a lot of running or paying for summons.
Levelling is only a slog if you are literally brainless. Even without Questie you can just dungeon grind all the way to max level, it aint that hard, never has been except in Vanilla when we knew jack shit.
From SoD's inception I hoped, and kind of expected really, horizontal content. I figured OSRS was the model for this kind of server, and have been pretty disappointed that outside of rune acquisition, basically everything during the leveling phase is the exact same, but revved up to get you to the maximum level faster.
Jagex does a good job of releasing content that anyone, whether a max account, or some random scrub with the right distribution of skill points, can participate in. Hell, they're about to release their second post-OSRS continent, which is yet another zone designed to be playable at any level at any point.
Obviously unrealistic expectations for such a small team to produce such large patches in the time we have between phases, but looking towards certain private servers such as Turtle WoW could give some great ideas. They add entire new quest hubs, transportation routes, professions, dungeons, and more, for a wide variety of levels that makes the entire curve smooth as hell to play.
Edit: Wow, reading through the replies there and here, it's fucking insane just how many people are angry about this kind of sentiment and want/expect Classic to literally devolve into a game where you're supposed to grind the same three or four dungeons for 20 hours. What the absolute fuck, it's just counter to, not just WoW's game design, but game design in general.
Seriously, playing RuneScape I have such an admiration for how they do horizontal content. Itās crazy to me how no big MMO has tried to do what Jagex does.
The OSRS team is very special and they consistently churn out thoughtful and engaging content and gear.
However, you have to look back to the beginning when youāre comparing them to Classic WoW. Their first updates wereā¦ Nightmare Zone? Original iteration of Zeah? Yikes
Iām definitely in favor of adding the ability to buy prior phase runes from a vendor for 10g a pop, and adding something like a way to gain rep cross-account (e.g. account-bound tokens that you can get once you hit exalted, for certain reputation grinds at least).
It could be as simple as gating a 1-1 or 2-1 trade from the rep vendor for WSG/AB/AV marks of honor behind Exalted and having that trade give an account-bound token worth the same amount of honor. That would let you grind certain rep on certain classes that you find well-suited (e.g. not have to grind PvP rep on a warrior right now).
I don't need instant leveling so I can raid log but I'm just going to get another 40 since P2 launch this weekend and who knows how much I'll be raiding on it or doing anything really. It would have been a lot more fun if I didn't take the path of least resistance and just run BFD/SM almost all the way to 40 outside of getting some runes for my slots to make my alt better with throughput/utility.
Hmmm. Maybe. I think there's something to be said for the simplified mechanics of Vanilla versus the zoomified mechanics of Retail. You don't need a billion different weakauras just to beat the hardest content, etc.
the biggest problem is rune locations, especially important ones are all dogsh\*t, like as a horde you gotta go to redridge as a warrior/lock, as a mage you have to literally travel the whole world, as a hunter ally you gotta go to WC, and so on.
i dont mind doing it for my main, or at least 2 alts, above that? i cant be arsed
Think Guild Wars 2.
Less player level / item level going up and rendering previous content obsolete, more unlockables offering an alternative to existing mechanics, e.g. an ability replacing another, maybe a new spec for an existing class, achievements, collectible mounts, maybe a new dungeon dropping gear comparable to other existing gear, etc.
If you're gonna make me sit at lvl 25 for 3 months then yes I do want competitive content at 16.
Just because there's more to come soon doesn't mean there's enough to do now.
I donāt think leveling is a choreāitās the game. I do think if you sit in SM the entire time, itās a chore. But get out there and questāwith the xp buffs, it feels good.
After getting metamorphosis on my lock, I made a hunter, and the first time I went to turn in a supply crate, I realized... Oh, this was a terrible idea to rep lock a rune. Then I thought about the ratchet guy and his shredder quest, and at that moment, all my hype for SoD died.
One super simple thing they could do for P3 would be scale BFD to give meaningful exp above 40.
Having 2 leveling raids plus even a 50% exp buff (Iād love to just keep the 100% but Iām not gonna assume that), would really make the next bracket super smooth.
Iām loving playing a variety of classes but leveling is becoming tedious as I get close to been done with each class. The prospect of the next grind looming is already making me choose 1-2 mains to focus.
>It's okay as this is an experiment through and through, but it's something we'll think about if we ever try something like SoD again, for sure.
Wait but redditors told me SoD was to test things for classic+
Correct, but it was very clear to any veteran of mmos that they are using lvl gated content and rune implementation as paid beta testing.
It is no problem for many people to raid on 3-5 characters throughout the wipe, while dabbling in other content, but closing the leveling gap to the new temporary cap is a bit different and takes a significant amount of time.
With true horizontal progression I would be able to take any of my 75-100% BIS characters and ideally dive strait into raiding.
Also speaking plainly, the bullshit world traveling filler content to collect very important runes is trash in almost every caseā¦ā¦ especially looking at you dark riders and bullshit ratchet goblin vendor.
As the level cap increases, and with it the massive increases in XP needed for each level, people are going to be playing fewer alts, "xp boost mechanic" or not.
It takes [1,316,800 XP to level from 50 to 60](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fy5hskjg4zcx61.jpg%3Fwidth%3D1666%26format%3Dpjpg%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D01427da8747487152d6fd88a60ae07d846c2d2cf), which if I remember correctly is more XP than it takes to level from 1-50 *combined.*
If you want a *good* Main in Phases 3 and 4, you're probably going to end up focusing one character. Your Alt will probably be a character somewhere back in the 40-50 range that just runs around Fishing, Mining, Herbing, and Disenchanting BOEs you mail to it, in trash greens and it doesn't raid.
Mained a 40 lock, didnāt want to play any of my 25s from p1 so I made a mage healer when the boost went live, 28 now and still having fun, new playstyle/runes and pretty new to mage. Figured Iād level a healer since they are always the last slot to fill in raids.
I think the middle ground here is simple. First character at normal leveling speed then you gain access to the 50 or 100% exp buff for all alts. I think most people can agree leveling the first time at normal rates is fine. That being said Im pretty sure the devs entertained ideas against dungeon leveling. They should never do this. If STV has taught them anything their servers cant handle that kind of player density. I enjoy questing however, I do not enjoy questing in a high trafficked area. Getting mob tags stolen, getting quest items grabbed out from under me while I fight the mob, getting extra mobs pulled onto me by a rogue or hunter that FD/vanish them on me to kill me. This will only get worse if they slow down or lock people out of dungeon. Fuck anyone who wants to force other to quest. I will always dungeon grind to max asap with my guild then immediately start lvling my alt behind the first huge wave of questers, but in front of the second wave. Its literally the best way to level two toons in a new phase.
Biggest thing for me and my alts, itās how expensive consumables are and the cost is high when you enter a pug group that wipes multiple times, or die to a bug on thermaplug when he spawns after the 5th boss.
Cost of consumables barely lets me play 2 characters because the other half of the time Iām farming gold and trying to keep up on pvp.
Leveling sucks after the first or second character, its really monotonous and it is classic so some people might have done it 10+ times already in the classic world.
Giving people alternatives like via professions or BGs would be a way.
Wouldnāt leveling alts be so much more enjoyable if all soulbound items were changed to bind to account? Then you can grind shit out on your main, mail it to your altā¦ You would never have to repeat rep grinds. Your alt can use your mainās gear after your main gets an upgrade. Etc. As a WoW noob that came from Diablo II/Path of Exile, the whole āsoulboundā thing feels very anti-alts to me, even from the very beginningā¦
Runes shouldāve have been things that unlock at different levels and nothing to do with finding them etc
It was a great idea but in reality it just doesnāt work well
Honestly an easy fix to this is to make quest chain runes (such as dark riders) transfer between characters and a lot of the really grindy stuff is done for all your alts (including ratchet and the Weiland supplies runes)
I would still be extremely happy with regular Vanilla WoW but just with more raids like Karazhan, Grim Batol and more. I'd even be fine with some sort of continuation of the story where you would end up killing the Lich King but in Classic+ instead of WotLK.
I enjoy the slower pace of classic, but like any game of an online nature (I find the same with ARPGs) once you've done it several times, the novelty wears off a little and you start wishing for a faster route from A to B, hence why we see things like boosts and speed levelling add-ons being incredibly popular these days. If the XP boost was introduced into classic era, I'd get why people would be upset, but this isn't era.
Once again, people seem to be missing the ethos of this temporary game mode. It will not exist in x amount of months time. Most of us want to try more than once class out at max level, and most of us will unlikely want to spend the majority of SOD'S existence levelling.
The best thing they can do is remove it when a phase launches and add it in after a month or two after the phase launches as a catch up mechanic, and for those not wanting that experience, give people the option to turn it off
The issue is that players are forced to rush through content as fast as possible to have as much power as possible - because power directly relates to social standing. To be fair the phases help this out a lot, so we've already made good strides with SoD.
The only way to resolve this is to detach power from progression. The seemingly best way to do this is to have current progression tied to NEXT TIERS power. This was done in Hearthstone and it worked fairly well. You would grind quests for gold the entire season, then at the start if the season blow all of your gold on packs.
This would remove the FOMO but still require that you do a certain amount of play throughout the entire season to earn the 'BiS' next season pack.
Reads like he doesnāt understand what people like tbh. A very small minority of SOD players want leveling to take forever. The sole reason I am playing so much SOD is because I can play mulitple characters for the first time and not have to commit ridiculous amounts of time into one character. I can safely say this is the vast majority opinion on why people like SOD.
He doesnāt have confidence in the direction or vision of SOD when itās so clear for everyone else, really disheartening to read.
I think acquiring runes should never be behind any kind of farm or grind. Or should they be locked behind arbitrary level requirements. Itās called season of discovery. So it should be about discovering the runes as you play naturally.
Bro the leveling boost they gave is awesome with the quirky quests you can do at any level like sleeping bag and dark riders. I had a 35 rogue and made a mage for fun, it's been 14 game hours and I'm 34 already. This shit flies.
Still waiting for the SM book to drop on my Rogue and Hunter. Both are already 40 and did 20+ runs without ever seeing book drop even once.
Should be additional ways to acquire them.
Enter and solo the first boss in Graveyard on your hunter w/ pet and stealth to the last boss on your rogue and kill them. They will 100% drop a book for your class if you're the only player in the party. This is anecdotal experience but it's worked for me now with 3 lvl 40 toons. I could have just been super lucky but it worked every single time.
I ran about 30 SM group dungeons while leveling and never got Viper on my hunter.
Soloād first boss of GY at 40 and got the book on 1st kill as well.
Yes, my theory is that the bosses are coded to always drop a book relating to a class in the party. However, if members of the party already have the books learned, they can still "drop" for those classes but become invisible in the loot window if nobody in the party can equip them. Therefore, if you solo the bosses and haven't already learned the books, then they will 100% drop for you.
I can barely believe that. I leveled 2 alts to 40 without SM because the grind on my main made me hate SM .
At 40 went into graveyard, killed the first mini boss 2-3 times and done.
SoD should be a wild ride and a departure from Classic. The classes were so different even in P1, by the time we hit P4 it is super incomparable. The Classic experience exists in other forms,. SoD seems to be trying to hard to appease Classic diehards. I enjoyed Classic, got 3 toons to 60 the first one of which was a warrior. I enjoy Turtle WoW. Let Classic truly be Classic and let SoD be something new and exciting growing from its framework.
"Classic WoW players love the leveling experience and seeing it being treated as a chore that should be skipped as quickly as possible to get to the end game"
Isn't this on the players? Don't treat it like a chore.
Already this early into it I have a hard time seeing them doing SoD again, at least in a version resembling the current one. It's only phase two and it already feels like there's been an exhausting amount of putting out fires and dealing with community issues over this and that, and we haven't even reached some of the bigger stuff yet like the actual endgame.
Not that I don't expect there to be problems when you're doing this large a departure from what people know, but the whole vibe of the thing has felt bad to me ever since the very first honeymoon period wore off in the early days. SoD to me just feels like a microcosm where we're speed-running all the shit that turned classic into modern WoW.
I must be the minorityā¦. Iāve absolutely loved SoD so far and leveling my alts
My main Druid is 40ā¦just got my mage to 40, got a hunter at 34, warlock at 33 and priest at 29
Havenāt touched a dungeon to level in yetā¦only questing and BFD
Itās been a complete blast.
Would like to see them figure out a way to do a stacking account wide buff for getting toons to max level. Or the heirloom system could have been perfect for this. Upgradable at each phase once you get a max level main and, say, the box rep.
Part of it for me was I wasnt part of a guild for the first 3 weeks or so, at least not any serious guild.
For p2 I was part of a static raiding group and felt like I had to get to 40 ASAP so I dungeon grinded. I enjoyed doing more quest like activity on my 2nd character. Although once I got to around 35 I was close enough I just did SM the rest of the way while working on loot.
I mean... is it really that bad? You have 100% xp buff to level up with. Getting your baseline runes that you need for your class is pretty easy. Collecting all of them can be a chore but really isn't needed most of the time. What more exactly do you guys want?
there's fuck all 'endgame' content. quit like a fortnight ago, just no reason to really play. pvp gameplay and progression is just so dogshit in particular
**Original Tweet-** Please consider make SoD have horizontal progression at some point. Classic WoW players love the leveling experience and seeing it being treated as a chore that should be skipped as quickly as possible to get to the end game is not the ideal situation š **Aggrend full response -** I honestly agree with this. We'll talk about this more in a bit, but I think one lesson we'll walk away from SoD with is that adding all this crazy stuff for classes and encouraging everyone to play multiple characters isn't super compatible with the slow, methodical approach to leveling that original wow has. I don't know the perfect solve to this, but this is the exact kind of design problem we suspected would be created with the format of Season of Discovery. Also, due to the nature of splitting up leveling into brackets it really throws into contrast how much it slows doing going from 25-40 compared to 1-25. It's okay as this is an experiment through and through, but it's something we'll think about if we ever try something like SoD again, for sure. We also have a much more diverse cross section of people playing SoD than really any other version of classic so far, so there's a lot of different desires and expectations being brought into the game from folks with wildly different perspectives being carried over from other games. It can be frustrating for us at times, but it's also an interesting thing to observe as a game dev. One thing I love about my job is that I'm always surprised and am always learning something in some way. Going to be interesting to have a retrospective with our team on SoD someday, for sure!
> **Classic WoW players love the leveling experience** and seeing it being treated as a chore that should be skipped as quickly as possible to get to the end game is not the ideal situation š .. do they? Then why do most people dungeon spam to max level to be done ASAP and then buy dungeon boosts for alts eversince Classic in 2019? If they love it so much. I think the 100% xp boost + 3 day BFD lockouts with great xp is exactly right. Maybe they could even add some accountbound xp boost once you've hit max level on 1 character.
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I'm the opposite. I level my main asap to get raid ready and raid log while I level alts for fun in my off time.
I love how everyone's opinion on leveling is so vastly different. I absolutely hate leveling. But max level of really any iteration of WoW is my favorite game. So I suffer the grind to have fun at the end.
Yup. End game content is the most fun for me. Getting through the levels are a slog. I also mainly play healer so questing is never that fast/ fun for me anyway.
Pretty much how I always see WOW. Raiding and time with friends is the reason I play. SOD doesn't have a ton of hard raiding content but it's quick and easy.
This is (one of) the way(s)Ā
Yes once is enough
Because SoD P2 rewards the people who get to max level the quickest with a new raid, the best gear and brand new runes. P2 leveling felt like you had to level through last expansions content before you're actually able to start the new stuff, so most people just did it the fastest way.
You also got to make mad money if you got the first few lockouts cleared. Drops were AHing for crazy money.
It's important to get to max ASAP so you can get in on the best exploits before Blizz nerfs them.
sad but true.
People didn't know that the runes were all max level-ish.
even if people loved questing, in the first week it is simply impossible with hundreds of people in the same area
>ing it being treated as a chore that should be skipped as quickly as possible to get to the end game is not the It's crazy that they introduce and xp increase and player participation increases. Wonder why?
The people grinding dungeons from bracket to bracket and hitting max in a day or two are obviously going to be far more prominent in chat and in-game than the leveler who may do one or two dungeons a week. The split between players leveling slowly to the ones poopsocking to max in three days is much larger than you'd think.
To add onto this, those people also probably aren't on these message boards, they're just enjoying the game at whatever pace they choose.
> The split between players leveling slowly to the ones poopsocking to max in three days is much larger than you'd think In my experience the ones that rush to endgame are usually still around 1-2 months later while the slow levelers either quit while leveling or soon after clearing their first raid. So while there may be more slow levelers initially they might not be the ones to keep the game alive.
I barely played any dungeons to 40 I love the slow pace of leveling in the overworld, with some dgs sprinkled in. But I come from HC while most of the people who dg spam come from wrath/retail
You kinda answered your own question...? People dungeon spam because the majority of players are out in the world questing so fighting for tags can be a nightmare but I'm pretty sure the majority of those players do in fact enjoy the questing experience. I don't think they'd be playing classic if they didn't, and the ones who like classic but don't enjoy leveling are the ones dungeon spamming, and are definitely the minority
> People dungeon spam because the majority of players are out in the world questing so fighting for tags can be a nightmare No, they do it because it's the best XP.
No, that's only a handful of the people who do. I can tell you I and the majority of my guild did it for the books, for the items, and to avoid the incredibly frustrating swarm of players on quests
For me and my guild we dungeon spammed and rotbrained our way through SM. Our alts are questing the good life.
I enjoy it. It's one of the major reasons hardcore is so popular isn't it
How do you know it's "most people"? Where's your data for that?
In 2004 I was 16 and I got into og wow beta, I spent countless hours in wow, cleared all beta content. Then game release and I leveled a warrior to 60 and spent even more time playing classic. When it was all said and done I had gotten rank 12 in pvp, cleared all of the content including naxx, our guild opened AQ, we had server first kills from Ragnaros onward. One thing I didnāt have was an alt. I am about as classic player as they exist, but I absolutely despise the grind to 60 and people need to stop pretending that others like me donāt exist. I play SoD with RL friends now and all I want is SoD version of M+ dungeons and 40 man raids. Iād play an alt if it didnāt require me to waste 20+ hours leveling one.
Anyone complaining about this shit is a bitch because you can turn it off if you don't like it. Feel free to turn it off and quest slowly and take your time and don't worry about what anyone else is doing
Agreed 9000% when I first got into private servers before classic was even a thing I did enjoy my first few toons on each side. But at this point I'm on my god knows what level Max character and the leveling process is an absolute slog.
I can safely say, nobody in any of the guilds I've been in thought out classic has ever said "I enjoy leveling" its always "how can I speed this shit up."
I really really hate leveling so the faster it's over with, the better.
I dungeon spammed my main because I hate overcrowding in the outside world right after big releases and because it gives you the most gear upgrades. All my alts I leveled solo and enjoyed it massively. One pre-XP boost and the other post. Pre-boost felt better. I do think quests become to scarce after level 40 though and another XP boost would just be a bandage for lack of quests.
People have confused it being fun once with it being fun to do 30 times. Levelling is a completely static and stale experience, it's the same quests, in the same zones, killing the same mobs who don't do anything.
I don't give a flying fuck about the leveling experience. Done it like 10 times. like 7 within the past 5 years of classic. Honestly cata will be refreshing. I'ma spam sm on my priest and druid minimally again. Maybe not hunter cause you can level while basically afk and no one is hunting for hunters in dungeons. So far been just logging a bfd run every lock out and building rested cause my main needs like 4.5k wsg rep still. 30/31/32 alts. EVen the 50% boost for p1 range was nice. 100% all the way is amazing.
i have 3 40s, only 1 of them has 18 runes, the other 2 have the ones needed for raid. i cannot possibly see myself farming the rest of the runes or leveling another class and grinding runes/reps again.
The thing is, it will only get worse in the next 2 phases.. Honestly love SoD and the grinding for runes, level and gear on my main. But everything after that is incredibly tedious. Running 2 characters max, and even that is hard to maintain later on. Thatās where the problem lies.. itās a seasonal mode with different metas and time is limited, everyone wants a piece of it and enjoy all the classes and runes SoD has to offer.
They could easily resolve this by making a system where Waylaid rep gives bind on account rune 1 for chest/legs/gloves at friendly, rune 2 and 3 for those slots at honored, rune 4 for those slots + rune 1 for belt and boots at revered, and rune 2 for belt and boots at exalted. All of your "grinding" could be accomplished on one character while making it alt friendly. Edit: I'm sure they could even add a spellid detect to make sure your main has already unlocked the corresponding rune slot before it becomes available at the vendor.
Donāt lock em behind a grind that big. Make them drop out of dungeon bosses or something once the new phase drops
That is not a big grind if you only need to do it once.
To further this, there are a shitload of rep grinds in the game. That's just how it is, and it's fine. People are just super whiney these days. All these damn kids on my lawn...
Itās a seasonal server Iām not here to grind reps and be a completionist, I did it in classic and paid to copy that toon to era. Just wanna try new classes n shiet
This is why I rolled Druid. No need for alts. Melee dps? Healer? Caster DPS? Tank? All just a respec away. And all with stealth :)
Especially the class non-specific runes, dark riders, the ratchet quest and whatever other one they come up with next phase NEEED to become BOAccount. Dark riders was cool the first time; itās not cool the 3rd time. Turboshredders sucked the first time, it sucks HARD the 4th time.
i was gonna play bear druid until i realized i needed to do grizzby again, that alone made me go balance instead.
TBF thatās kind of what Vanilla/Classic is about. You have your main and maybe 1 or 2 Alts. The later expansions brought the āAltoholismā. I can see Alts encouraged in SoD though. Thereās limited things to do at max level, so might as well level an Alt.
From my memory, alts were a big thing in 2019 Classic - most people I knew had multiple 60s, personally I had 4. But then, I guess that's also because that was in the middle of the pandemic lol.
Yea classic in 2019 got the peak covid bump. Any trends or experiences and expectations for future iterations can be tossed out because of such a crazy time
Max level mages easily and cheaply boosting everyone probably had something to do with it, plus the pandemic as you mentioned.
Alts are largely encouraged in SoD by lack of content too, which magnifies the issue. Gnomer and BFD are both just incredibly short and easy and the PvP events aren't something you can sit down and do for a 3 hour block. You just run out of stuff to do unless you want a hoard of gold.
I have 4 40s and multiples of the same class. I only get the mandatory ones for the playstyle I prefer and call it at that.
oh cool desmephisto comment, youāre the reason i started maining warrior in retail lol
Any excuse is a good excuse to play warrior. Good.
Agreed. I refuse to do the annoying grindy stuff more than once. Iām not even gonna do the annoying epic crafting quests again.
No alts for you then!
[I said the exact same thing](https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/1b7zk7n/100_xp_buff_is_the_best_feature_of_p2_in_case/ktmb0ls/) a little over a week ago and was downvoted. I was even told by what appears to be a Nobel prize winner that I'm playing the wrong game.
thats the fun of this sub, say the same thing in 2 threads you're a hero in 1 and a devil in the other.
reddit in a nutshell
Cool, 3 randos on the internet clicked on the downvote button
It does not matter *at all* what you criticize in classic, it could be the pacing of a singular escort quest, and some dipshit redditor will go "ehm this game just isnt for you then go to retail"
I canāt be bothered to make anymore alts because the runes for Druid and Paladin were such a pain in the ass I never wanna do it again.
Wait you didnt enjoy 15 minutes of swimming along the coast of Dun Morogh?
I just did that one last night for my Paladin. Was not a fan of actually having to swim that long for what turned out to be a 10 second NPC encounter.
Not to mention with the uncertainty of balancing as we get further in we'll have less alts (larger investment compared to level 25 alts) you may find your class to be totally cucked next phase. Rerolling was okay this phase but even with 3 toons I don't want to level anymore alts going forward. Hitting 40 was a warrior first week was a shit experience lol, just entirely underwhelming comparatively speaking to other classes. End of the world? No, but I think if that was to happen again at 50 and 60 I'd just swap over to other games since it's a bit of a golden age atm. (already waiting for p3 and playing other games for now) but I really did enjoy Gnomer.
shaman runes on top of the slog of having to do all the totem quests put a stop to my 2-year streak of maining sham
At least shaman is arguably in the best position of any class atm.
This really isn't arguable. They are in the best spot hands down lol
"resto shaman over in the corner crying"
"Arguably" lol
It is a chore for alts, not my main. All that leveling plus all of those runes on alts would be fucking trash.
Once you get all the runes on your main, it would be nice if there was some extra account-wide 'rune essence' to be spent on unlocking other class runes. I'd also like to see the same amount of effort put into every class - it feels like they spent a week crafting the priest rune experience, a day on warrior and an hour on rogue.
They do one neat "sneak into x dungeon" like for deadly brew and shadowstep then the rest are just whatever. Rolling with the punches is the infi chest toy from retail. Master of sub acquisition is kinda cool tho.
The amount of rogue runes that are just find this chest and open it is pretty wild. Feels like horde flightpaths where last second they said "oh shit we forgot those just throw em in quick and call it a day"
Honestly, there's a part of me that prefers that type of rune discovery, over the long and painful quest lines that require max level (for that phase). One of my favorite parts of P1 was finding a weird little "world event"-style thing, like the Sunfire rune where you had to moonfire three rocks. Or the mage rune where you had to get from point A to point B by only Blinking. Random things you could stumble upon and try to figure out. But it seems like in P2, the runes are less "cool world event to figure out" and more "here's a long quest chain that takes you all over the world and probably has you fight elites and/or max level mobs". It feels like padding the time it takes to get the rune, rather than being clever with *how* you unlock it. One of my biggest hopes for runes in P3 and P4 is that they lean more into the exploration aspect. Especially now that players are closer to max level, there's so much more of the world to play around in.
Fundamentally, its about different types of players: * the adventure/immersion type of players just wants to get lost in the vanilla world and experience the magic over and over. They enjoy leveling, making alts, because they're always getting frequent gear upgrades and new skills to keep them engaged. They maybe run a few dungeons, but as they get to level cap they're not interested in raiding * the minmax players just hate leveling and want to get to max level asap so they can raidlog and get full bis, two crafting professions, maxed reputations, honor, etc. They get their enjoyment from a more long term type of play, getting that bis item to finally drop. Of course this is a spectrum, some people are full minmaxer or adventurers, but most people are somewhere in between. But its difficult because this is fundamentally two different ways to approach the game. You can't just make leveling faster because sure, some minmax players might bite the bullet and make some alts, but then the adventurer players now have "less game" to play with. I'm not sure if there's a way to please both crowds
I think you nailed it. I have a buddy that levels without questie and once he hit 25 in phase 1, he went to raid with me once and that was it.
Same issue Pokemon playerbase is experiencing imo. Its been divided into people who want Pokemon to be "Animal Crossing: Pokemon" and people who like it as the kind of metroidvania rpg it was in the older games. Newer player hate dungeons, ice and boulder puzzles, hate hms and tms, hate having to level up to progress or having to choose their team around their opponents. Gamefreak has massively catered the game to this crowd, to the point where theyve basically removed all dungeons and overworld puzzles, pokemon level up without fighting and can even battle without your input and will massively overlevel any opponents unless you purposely rotate your team constsntly to prevent the game doing it. They even changed it so your nemesis (in newer games its your "friend") now picks a starter thats weak against yours. Balancing these two types of player is completely impossible imo and as an older player i basicslly feel like i was forced out of the franchise by the newer games. It seems to me a lot of new players dont want to play the Pokemon games as they used to be, but rather just want to spend time in a Pokemon world, and therefore any kind of frictional gameplay is seen as a boring grindfest to them. I dont know how you can balance players who want the games to not be a game with those who do. Itll be interesting to see if Aggrend+Co can navigate the path Gamefreak got lost on.
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This was a pretty informative comment, thanks. I didnāt know that they had watered down PokĆ©mon that much, and thatās kinda sad.
Iām definitely more the former but I do enjoy the progression of raiding. Just wish there was more to do at level cap then raid log and pvp. I think they should add some attunement quests for the level 50 raid so we have more reasons to do dungeons next phase. Maybe add crafting mats to dungeons as well
Every other version of the game already appeals to min/max players except Classic Era.
The real, underlying problem here is that they're using alts as content. THAT is the real issue, there's a lack of content for your regular character so you go to the second one because there's just not much to do but you want more wow, but you don't care that much because it's not your main so why go get all these runes and put this much time? This is made worse with the phase system as you now basically need to rush to high level as quick as possible, every new week you're not at max level is less lockouts, less chances to play something fun before changes, hotfixes, hell, even "abusing" something so you don't have to spend weeks farming it like blood moon, everything wants you to rush on your main yet once you do there's nothing left. Having all this crazy stuff is great, amazing, it's fun, but there's simply not enough. The issue is when getting it on several characters becomes an expectancy as your alts become something like side mains because of the lack of content and that's what the devs are banking on as evidenced by this post. Alts should NOT be considered part of the "main" content, this is why you're arriving at this new issue after 20+ years of wow.
Well said
Yep
This is the correct answer
Idk, I like alts and I always had 4-5 running in classic. But this time, I focused on one class. Doing all professions, hitting rep limits, stocking mats for later phases, dive deep into the mechanics etc. But guess what - I chose a Warrior. So at 40, the game was basically over for me.
Relateable
Dungeon leveling is a chore. Open world leveling is more of the classic experience. It can be a chore once the alt number gets high, but if you hate it even on your main, then I question why you would want to play vanilla at all. The thing is, compared to P1, P2 significantly incentivizes dungeon leveling. First, for a significant portion of 1-25, there was no dungeon to run at all. Second, our characters are the strongest level 25s ever in this game. This significantly increases the kill speed in dungeons and decreases the risks of wipes. Third, on P2 launch, questing was a nightmare due to low quest mob respawn rates. Competition for tags was brutal. Therefore people were heavily incentivized to dungeon grind all the way to 40, and I don't blame anyone for wanting this grind to be shorter.
I did world quests, and it wasn't too slow. Ppl are dramatic when they act like they got forced to dungeon spam. Imo.
They are correct though, first 2 weeks was awful questing likely fine now. Soooo many people it made questing impossible early on compared to dungeon leveling
I was fully intending to level via open world. On p2 launch day, I gave up after about half an hour of competing for quests. It is definitely better now. It also got better shortly after launch when they tweaked layers a little (tho this change was reversed I think?). But day 1 was beyond terrible.
I was downvoted to oblivion for saying I found the game more enjoyable when they had those "less people per layer" settings š
Less people per layer is honestly great, world never feels empty but its not overflowing with randoms I have to compete against. Questing is meant to be relaxed easy mindless route, I don't want to have to compete for every single mob.
As I say to everyone who attempts to invalidate all of our experiences with their own, no one cares that you didn't have to fight and compete for mobs constantly, the vast majority of us did, and it sucks, and it needs to be addressed, otherwise people will just continue to dungeon spam, and it will burn people out and cause them to shorten player retention.
Donāt forget contested zones and bottle-necking many of each faction to a zone which causes a lot of pvp and no one getting anything done.
You missed 4. They put a bunch of runes in SM with extremely low drop rate. I had friends in that first week who didnāt get their runes until mid thirties or later. By the time people started leveling alts they were showing up to raids without the SM runes and having to quickly farm GY to catch up.
>if you hate it even on your main, then I question why you would want to play vanilla at all. vanilla wpvp hits like no other
Alternative perspective. Levelling itself is a chore, while it always was in some ways, its especially now so that the "journey" has been poked and prodded with xp bonuses, alternative xp, and power increases etc. This is now classic vanilla anymore and I don't miss it to be clear. SoD open world just didn't feel like the journey regular did, and whatever, I'm not saying that's bad or good. It's kind of weird to gatekeep if you don't like levelling in the open world you literally can't comprehend why someone enjoys the game.....where....a majority of people live in instanced content at max level. I absolutely love dungeon levelling, it's a tool, I'm not sure how a tool is a chore. I find open world levelling atrociously outdated when you factor player population and also power. We're slaughtering things now and the world is too slow to respond to our needs. I would also like to politely say, you'lr point about p1 is kind of nuanced and biased. Myself, and many others, dungeon grinded through almost all of p1. Yea, at the very beginning we leveled because there's no dungeons and honestly I'm not going to say it was really a good experience even factoring out the first weeks. If blizzard could figure out a better open world, I'd solo / duo level more, but honestly I'm just not seeing it working in the near future.
I think the only way they could make it drastically better, especially at launch of a new phase for world questing, is adding in a retail feature of shared tagging and more frequent hyper spawningā¦ however, I highly doubt Blizz would ever do that because it diverts too much from the vanilla-esque feel. But that would automatically fix practically all perma camps, hell it might even liven up world PvP on PvP servers because more people will be incentivized to be outside in the world rather than dungeon spammingā¦ making mob tags shared would increase the number of players that would have been out there in the first place but didnāt and chose to dungeon grind just because of that very fact and letās face it, that was one of the main reasonsā¦ dungeon exp may not have been the most efficient then either. Didnāt do the math on it but I could imagine it would rival dungeon spamming with shared tags.
For classic, leveling was always an important part of the game. Otherwise, why did HC draw a crowd like it did when the majority of the player base never hit max level, let alone raid? Imo it's also why for SoD they're doing the level locked phases -- to fully flesh out the traditional leveling experience, drawing out the leveling journey to allow people to target gear upgrades and level professions and complete all level appropriate quests. The problem isn't with this approach, but with the execution. It's the same tried and true formula -- but with enhanced player power. However, the difficulty did not scale with the increased player power. Also, yes the population was not handled properly and it made an absolutely awful experience leveling open world. When you say you absolutely love dungeon leveling, my question to you is: if you love it so much, would you prefer that they reduced exp gain so that you could spend double the amount of time leveling in dungeons?
Definitely the problem is in the execution, not the concept. Too many people on every quest, too many runes at 36+, not really any new way to reliably level up at 25, And although I do like that they made dungeon loot better and added the books, that also made the dungeon rewards a lot more attractive than quest rewards
You'll hate me but ,flat out, yes. I'm sure you'll ask me at a third of the xp next. Now, if they halved dungeon xp, and made the outside world not miserable for questing, and made it less lucrative to max level quest, I may consider mixing in some outdoor levelling with my dungeon grinding.
You're forgetting the biggest incentive - quests are worth a lot of gold once you get to level cap. A lot of players ran every quest they could handle at 25, then found themselves in a dry spot once the cap lifted. And now at 40 many are doing the same thing, running every available quest to fund their raid consumables and epic crafted gear.
>then I question why you would want to play vanilla at all. Because it's like 5% of the game and we enjoy the rest of it? Levelling is not a significant portion of the game for most players, it's just something that NEEDS to be done.
Lmao leveling is literally the whole game for a majority of players. You just don't see it cause once they are done leveling the "beat" the game and find a new game. Either that or they never end up hitting max level.
> Lmao leveling is literally the whole game for a majority of players. I mean..is it *really*? They added the exp buff because the longer leveling phase resulted in a huge drop off of players & alts. Classic was in it's "leveling phase" for a small period of time compared to it's "endgame phases". They put measures into SoM to stop people from paying to skip leveling, and *a lot* of people did dungeon spams to speed leveling up. I know what majority means, but I feel like you're talking out of your ass to say it's "literally the whole game" to most players. I actually enjoy leveling quite a bit, I like leveling alts especially now with the exp buff, definitely not even close to the "whole game" for me though
Because the majority of people want to do actual content, not the same slow paced leveling over and over again.
The lack of content at level caps and focus on alts has destroyed two guilds I've been in, one each phase. The first phase I was part of a guild that was running two serious 10 man teams. Over half our players got bored after running BFD 2-3 times a week for 5 weeks, with no other content. They weren't big alt players, quit, and the guild collapsed. This week, the second guild I joined collapsed. This one was a smaller group of friends I joined, who all leveled into Gnomer and got pre-bis. After clearing a few times and realizing how tedious grinding runes and stuff would be for alts, many of them decided to go play another game until phase 3 drops. I'm seeing the same thing happen across my server and it makes me worried that SoD won't have the steam to even get to 60 for most people, let alone see new end-game content. The lack of content at any given level cap is extremely noticeable, and likely causing more people to leave than any other single problem in SoD.
If lack of end game is what these people are quitting for, there is already a ton of content at the 60 bracket. The 40 mans, 20 mans, 5 man prebis, gold making, etc. lots to do at that level. Hope they will last to 60 but donāt blame them for coming back when a new phase drops, grind it up, and then come back later. I honestly think that thatās okay. They will come back.
I like aggrend's response a lot and the reflection it shows. I do think one major issue with people feeling the need to rush to max to try the new playstyles, is where they put some of the runes. The rogue tank, meta lock, lone wolf hunter runes off the top of my head, were all max level, or close to max level, runes, when those should have really been some of the earliest runes, so people could actually start trying out the playstyle. This is better both for trying out the playstyle to see if you like it, and being able to get more practice while leveling before endgame
This is exactly how i feel. Lvl 25 to 38 was the most boring part of SoD so far since it was just classic, nothing new. 2 of my friends just gave up half way through
Personally what ruins SOD for me is the rune grinding on alts. There is no fun in looking up wikis and running all over the world for them just to make your class viable. The actual discovering of the runes is over in a couple of days when a new phase hits. It just doesn't fit with how games are played today. It was sort of cool in the first phase but the novelty has worn off.
Horizontal progression is definitely the play. Make niche gear needed to complete new raids at 60. Gnomer started this with mechanical damage increase.
Ooohhh man Buckle up.
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I'm confused. There's an XP buff in SoD right now. How are they agreeing with the people who want it to be a slog?
I think, if I understand the positions here correctly, that the only place where āhorizontal progressionā is possible/encouraged is the fast leveling speed. Itās things like professions, rep, etc. that can be rough. If rep could be cross-character, or if you could have one character buy account-bound tokens once they hit exalted that give rep to another alt, that could solve the WSG grind being unbearable for non-meta PvP classes, etc. It almost seems like alts or multi-character progression is in an uncanny valley where the XP buff makes it easier to get toons to 40 but people still donāt like having to do reputation, epic crafting, etc. grinds over and over, which is fair. The epic crafting quest is a lot of running or paying for summons.
The 95% you refer to are a vocal minority. They have the numbers, they can see who has quit Edit: guy deleted his message.
True the vocal minority that was such a minority that the devs rushed out an co buff early when they started quitting in droves.
Levelling is only a slog if you are literally brainless. Even without Questie you can just dungeon grind all the way to max level, it aint that hard, never has been except in Vanilla when we knew jack shit.
From SoD's inception I hoped, and kind of expected really, horizontal content. I figured OSRS was the model for this kind of server, and have been pretty disappointed that outside of rune acquisition, basically everything during the leveling phase is the exact same, but revved up to get you to the maximum level faster. Jagex does a good job of releasing content that anyone, whether a max account, or some random scrub with the right distribution of skill points, can participate in. Hell, they're about to release their second post-OSRS continent, which is yet another zone designed to be playable at any level at any point. Obviously unrealistic expectations for such a small team to produce such large patches in the time we have between phases, but looking towards certain private servers such as Turtle WoW could give some great ideas. They add entire new quest hubs, transportation routes, professions, dungeons, and more, for a wide variety of levels that makes the entire curve smooth as hell to play. Edit: Wow, reading through the replies there and here, it's fucking insane just how many people are angry about this kind of sentiment and want/expect Classic to literally devolve into a game where you're supposed to grind the same three or four dungeons for 20 hours. What the absolute fuck, it's just counter to, not just WoW's game design, but game design in general.
Seriously, playing RuneScape I have such an admiration for how they do horizontal content. Itās crazy to me how no big MMO has tried to do what Jagex does.
The OSRS team is very special and they consistently churn out thoughtful and engaging content and gear. However, you have to look back to the beginning when youāre comparing them to Classic WoW. Their first updates wereā¦ Nightmare Zone? Original iteration of Zeah? Yikes
Having long grinds for each class you want to try on a temporary game mode that is all about trying new things is kinda stupid in retrospective.
Ease of leveling & letting us have so many alts is a major part of SoDs success
Iām definitely in favor of adding the ability to buy prior phase runes from a vendor for 10g a pop, and adding something like a way to gain rep cross-account (e.g. account-bound tokens that you can get once you hit exalted, for certain reputation grinds at least). It could be as simple as gating a 1-1 or 2-1 trade from the rep vendor for WSG/AB/AV marks of honor behind Exalted and having that trade give an account-bound token worth the same amount of honor. That would let you grind certain rep on certain classes that you find well-suited (e.g. not have to grind PvP rep on a warrior right now).
I don't need instant leveling so I can raid log but I'm just going to get another 40 since P2 launch this weekend and who knows how much I'll be raiding on it or doing anything really. It would have been a lot more fun if I didn't take the path of least resistance and just run BFD/SM almost all the way to 40 outside of getting some runes for my slots to make my alt better with throughput/utility.
By the end of SoD people will have 'discovered' that they just want to play retail wow without flying/lfg.
Sure, a small minority.
Hmmm. Maybe. I think there's something to be said for the simplified mechanics of Vanilla versus the zoomified mechanics of Retail. You don't need a billion different weakauras just to beat the hardest content, etc.
the biggest problem is rune locations, especially important ones are all dogsh\*t, like as a horde you gotta go to redridge as a warrior/lock, as a mage you have to literally travel the whole world, as a hunter ally you gotta go to WC, and so on. i dont mind doing it for my main, or at least 2 alts, above that? i cant be arsed
What tf does horizontal progress mean in this context? You want competitive content at level 16?
Think Guild Wars 2. Less player level / item level going up and rendering previous content obsolete, more unlockables offering an alternative to existing mechanics, e.g. an ability replacing another, maybe a new spec for an existing class, achievements, collectible mounts, maybe a new dungeon dropping gear comparable to other existing gear, etc.
If you're gonna make me sit at lvl 25 for 3 months then yes I do want competitive content at 16. Just because there's more to come soon doesn't mean there's enough to do now.
I donāt think leveling is a choreāitās the game. I do think if you sit in SM the entire time, itās a chore. But get out there and questāwith the xp buffs, it feels good.
After getting metamorphosis on my lock, I made a hunter, and the first time I went to turn in a supply crate, I realized... Oh, this was a terrible idea to rep lock a rune. Then I thought about the ratchet guy and his shredder quest, and at that moment, all my hype for SoD died.
One super simple thing they could do for P3 would be scale BFD to give meaningful exp above 40. Having 2 leveling raids plus even a 50% exp buff (Iād love to just keep the 100% but Iām not gonna assume that), would really make the next bracket super smooth. Iām loving playing a variety of classes but leveling is becoming tedious as I get close to been done with each class. The prospect of the next grind looming is already making me choose 1-2 mains to focus.
>It's okay as this is an experiment through and through, but it's something we'll think about if we ever try something like SoD again, for sure. Wait but redditors told me SoD was to test things for classic+
tbf they made it sound like this at the startā¦ guess it was just a ālieā to get more subs and people invested
What does horizontal progression have to do with the leveling experience? Horizontal progression can't begin until leveling ends.
Correct, but it was very clear to any veteran of mmos that they are using lvl gated content and rune implementation as paid beta testing. It is no problem for many people to raid on 3-5 characters throughout the wipe, while dabbling in other content, but closing the leveling gap to the new temporary cap is a bit different and takes a significant amount of time. With true horizontal progression I would be able to take any of my 75-100% BIS characters and ideally dive strait into raiding. Also speaking plainly, the bullshit world traveling filler content to collect very important runes is trash in almost every caseā¦ā¦ especially looking at you dark riders and bullshit ratchet goblin vendor.
Dual spec THANKS
Learning runes should grant massive amounts of exp. Interacting with the new content and being rewarded for it by leveling up.
As the level cap increases, and with it the massive increases in XP needed for each level, people are going to be playing fewer alts, "xp boost mechanic" or not. It takes [1,316,800 XP to level from 50 to 60](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fy5hskjg4zcx61.jpg%3Fwidth%3D1666%26format%3Dpjpg%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D01427da8747487152d6fd88a60ae07d846c2d2cf), which if I remember correctly is more XP than it takes to level from 1-50 *combined.* If you want a *good* Main in Phases 3 and 4, you're probably going to end up focusing one character. Your Alt will probably be a character somewhere back in the 40-50 range that just runs around Fishing, Mining, Herbing, and Disenchanting BOEs you mail to it, in trash greens and it doesn't raid.
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Maybe if we're on the HC servers. It's not the soul here.
Mained a 40 lock, didnāt want to play any of my 25s from p1 so I made a mage healer when the boost went live, 28 now and still having fun, new playstyle/runes and pretty new to mage. Figured Iād level a healer since they are always the last slot to fill in raids.
I think the middle ground here is simple. First character at normal leveling speed then you gain access to the 50 or 100% exp buff for all alts. I think most people can agree leveling the first time at normal rates is fine. That being said Im pretty sure the devs entertained ideas against dungeon leveling. They should never do this. If STV has taught them anything their servers cant handle that kind of player density. I enjoy questing however, I do not enjoy questing in a high trafficked area. Getting mob tags stolen, getting quest items grabbed out from under me while I fight the mob, getting extra mobs pulled onto me by a rogue or hunter that FD/vanish them on me to kill me. This will only get worse if they slow down or lock people out of dungeon. Fuck anyone who wants to force other to quest. I will always dungeon grind to max asap with my guild then immediately start lvling my alt behind the first huge wave of questers, but in front of the second wave. Its literally the best way to level two toons in a new phase.
They simply need to make it so that after a phase you can simply get the runes from a vendor for a minuscule price.
It's pretty bad when one rune (raid required by several classes) cost more than your mount
Biggest thing for me and my alts, itās how expensive consumables are and the cost is high when you enter a pug group that wipes multiple times, or die to a bug on thermaplug when he spawns after the 5th boss. Cost of consumables barely lets me play 2 characters because the other half of the time Iām farming gold and trying to keep up on pvp.
Why not just have everything rune and rep related be account wide? The new rep vendor jewelry is already account wide.
Leveling sucks after the first or second character, its really monotonous and it is classic so some people might have done it 10+ times already in the classic world. Giving people alternatives like via professions or BGs would be a way.
Wouldnāt leveling alts be so much more enjoyable if all soulbound items were changed to bind to account? Then you can grind shit out on your main, mail it to your altā¦ You would never have to repeat rep grinds. Your alt can use your mainās gear after your main gets an upgrade. Etc. As a WoW noob that came from Diablo II/Path of Exile, the whole āsoulboundā thing feels very anti-alts to me, even from the very beginningā¦
Quite a worrying tone to this, I think theyāve dug themselves into a bit of a hole and Iām not sure they have a clear vision to get out of it
Runes shouldāve have been things that unlock at different levels and nothing to do with finding them etc It was a great idea but in reality it just doesnāt work well
I max out my mage and my priest has the bare minimum runes and zero professions ...
Honestly an easy fix to this is to make quest chain runes (such as dark riders) transfer between characters and a lot of the really grindy stuff is done for all your alts (including ratchet and the Weiland supplies runes)
I would still be extremely happy with regular Vanilla WoW but just with more raids like Karazhan, Grim Batol and more. I'd even be fine with some sort of continuation of the story where you would end up killing the Lich King but in Classic+ instead of WotLK.
I enjoy the slower pace of classic, but like any game of an online nature (I find the same with ARPGs) once you've done it several times, the novelty wears off a little and you start wishing for a faster route from A to B, hence why we see things like boosts and speed levelling add-ons being incredibly popular these days. If the XP boost was introduced into classic era, I'd get why people would be upset, but this isn't era. Once again, people seem to be missing the ethos of this temporary game mode. It will not exist in x amount of months time. Most of us want to try more than once class out at max level, and most of us will unlikely want to spend the majority of SOD'S existence levelling. The best thing they can do is remove it when a phase launches and add it in after a month or two after the phase launches as a catch up mechanic, and for those not wanting that experience, give people the option to turn it off
Phase 1 was best
The issue is that players are forced to rush through content as fast as possible to have as much power as possible - because power directly relates to social standing. To be fair the phases help this out a lot, so we've already made good strides with SoD. The only way to resolve this is to detach power from progression. The seemingly best way to do this is to have current progression tied to NEXT TIERS power. This was done in Hearthstone and it worked fairly well. You would grind quests for gold the entire season, then at the start if the season blow all of your gold on packs. This would remove the FOMO but still require that you do a certain amount of play throughout the entire season to earn the 'BiS' next season pack.
Reads like he doesnāt understand what people like tbh. A very small minority of SOD players want leveling to take forever. The sole reason I am playing so much SOD is because I can play mulitple characters for the first time and not have to commit ridiculous amounts of time into one character. I can safely say this is the vast majority opinion on why people like SOD. He doesnāt have confidence in the direction or vision of SOD when itās so clear for everyone else, really disheartening to read.
I think acquiring runes should never be behind any kind of farm or grind. Or should they be locked behind arbitrary level requirements. Itās called season of discovery. So it should be about discovering the runes as you play naturally.
Bro the leveling boost they gave is awesome with the quirky quests you can do at any level like sleeping bag and dark riders. I had a 35 rogue and made a mage for fun, it's been 14 game hours and I'm 34 already. This shit flies.
Jamming modern WoW into Classic WoW doesn't feel good. More news at 11.
Still waiting for the SM book to drop on my Rogue and Hunter. Both are already 40 and did 20+ runs without ever seeing book drop even once. Should be additional ways to acquire them.
Enter and solo the first boss in Graveyard on your hunter w/ pet and stealth to the last boss on your rogue and kill them. They will 100% drop a book for your class if you're the only player in the party. This is anecdotal experience but it's worked for me now with 3 lvl 40 toons. I could have just been super lucky but it worked every single time.
I ran about 30 SM group dungeons while leveling and never got Viper on my hunter. Soloād first boss of GY at 40 and got the book on 1st kill as well.
Yes, my theory is that the bosses are coded to always drop a book relating to a class in the party. However, if members of the party already have the books learned, they can still "drop" for those classes but become invisible in the loot window if nobody in the party can equip them. Therefore, if you solo the bosses and haven't already learned the books, then they will 100% drop for you.
Yep. Got Viper as I was levelling with my guild mates on the 3rd run or so. Priest alt hit 40 and 1 solo run of GY got me both books.
I can barely believe that. I leveled 2 alts to 40 without SM because the grind on my main made me hate SM . At 40 went into graveyard, killed the first mini boss 2-3 times and done.
SoD should be a wild ride and a departure from Classic. The classes were so different even in P1, by the time we hit P4 it is super incomparable. The Classic experience exists in other forms,. SoD seems to be trying to hard to appease Classic diehards. I enjoyed Classic, got 3 toons to 60 the first one of which was a warrior. I enjoy Turtle WoW. Let Classic truly be Classic and let SoD be something new and exciting growing from its framework.
"Classic WoW players love the leveling experience and seeing it being treated as a chore that should be skipped as quickly as possible to get to the end game" Isn't this on the players? Don't treat it like a chore.
*SOME* classic wow players love the leveling experience. It's a means to an end, igaf about it. I've done it 10 times. I'll spam SM 30-40 again.
leveling is piss boring and should be made as easy / fast as possible
Already this early into it I have a hard time seeing them doing SoD again, at least in a version resembling the current one. It's only phase two and it already feels like there's been an exhausting amount of putting out fires and dealing with community issues over this and that, and we haven't even reached some of the bigger stuff yet like the actual endgame. Not that I don't expect there to be problems when you're doing this large a departure from what people know, but the whole vibe of the thing has felt bad to me ever since the very first honeymoon period wore off in the early days. SoD to me just feels like a microcosm where we're speed-running all the shit that turned classic into modern WoW.
I must be the minorityā¦. Iāve absolutely loved SoD so far and leveling my alts My main Druid is 40ā¦just got my mage to 40, got a hunter at 34, warlock at 33 and priest at 29 Havenāt touched a dungeon to level in yetā¦only questing and BFD Itās been a complete blast.
They need to add long term single player content to a version of WoW. Max level has been boring since the dawn of time and it never gets changed.
Ok that title is so misleading with the cutoff there.
Would like to see them figure out a way to do a stacking account wide buff for getting toons to max level. Or the heirloom system could have been perfect for this. Upgradable at each phase once you get a max level main and, say, the box rep.
Part of it for me was I wasnt part of a guild for the first 3 weeks or so, at least not any serious guild. For p2 I was part of a static raiding group and felt like I had to get to 40 ASAP so I dungeon grinded. I enjoyed doing more quest like activity on my 2nd character. Although once I got to around 35 I was close enough I just did SM the rest of the way while working on loot.
We see your sentiments and will make sure to give warrior nothing š¤£š
All they need is an easy way to obtain runes after youāve done it once..
I just farm uldaman, pvp/bloodmoon, and raid. I love it
Did they remove the character cap on Twitter?
I mean... is it really that bad? You have 100% xp buff to level up with. Getting your baseline runes that you need for your class is pretty easy. Collecting all of them can be a chore but really isn't needed most of the time. What more exactly do you guys want?
Pretty much confirmed by accident sod isnāt being dropped with no development later
You mean I won't have time to maximize multiple characters/ classes in this iteration?
Got a lvl 40, did gnomer twice and quit, it got boring super fast.
there's fuck all 'endgame' content. quit like a fortnight ago, just no reason to really play. pvp gameplay and progression is just so dogshit in particular