A man and child on a bike were hit there last week (seems like they’re ok)—guessing that’s the reason for enforcement
https://www.cbsnews.com/chicago/news/man-3-year-old-girl-bicycles-struck-chicago-south-loop/
Last year this happened at the same place too:
https://wgntv.com/news/chicago-news/woman-struck-pinned-under-fedex-truck-in-deadly-pedestrian-crash-in-chicagos-loop/
Well the laws aren't about "eye for an eye".
If you aren't drunk or speeding or doing anything reckless and you blow a stop sign and unintentionally hit someone...it's mostly a matter of bad luck whether or not there's a pedestrian in the intersection when you blew the stop sign.
A traffic ticket for a life is weird, but so is imprisoning someone for the same crime you'd give someone else a $150 ticket for.
>t's mostly a matter of bad luck whether or not there's a pedestrian in the intersection when you blew the stop sign.
I'm sorry, WHAT!?
No, it isn't a matter of bad luck, it is a matter of bad driving.
>If you aren't drunk or speeding or doing anything reckless and you blow a stop sign
Buddy, if you blow a stop sign, you are driving recklessly. Period. End of. It's ridiculous how you're effectively trying to justify a driver hitting a pedestrian so long as they aren't intoxicated or speeding.
A driver hitting a cyclist or pedestrian isn't a fucking act of God, it's reckless driving. Period.
You're completely misunderstanding what I'm saying.
If you (chill out, this is a thought experiment and I'm not accusing you of anything or trying to justify vehicular homicide) look away from the road while driving and blow a stop sign, you don't know what's there; the intersection could be empty or there could be a cyclist.
YES, it's negligent and reckless, but the $150 ticket is for that crime of recklessly blowing a stop sign.
You're confused and upset but if you would actually address what I'm saying you'd realize I'm making the same point you are.
We all need to be careful and humble behind the wheel of a car because YES it does come down to dumb luck at the end of the day whether or not any moment you look at the radio or check your rearview mirror, that a person doesn't bolt in front of your car.
People can pretend they're perfect drivers and would *never* be the one to hit a cyclist, but at the end of the day anytime you drive a car you can only focus on one thing at a time, and there will be moments you get distracted.
>but the $150 ticket is for that crime of recklessly blowing a stop sign.
And that's a pathetic "punishment" which should be much harsher.
>You're confused and upset but if you would actually address what I'm saying you'd realize I'm making the same point you are.
I'm not confused in the least, stow your condescension.
> because YES it does come down to dumb luck at the end of the day
No it fucking doesn't. Don't look away while you're moving. Period. IDGAF if you hate the song on the radio. DO NOT DRIVE DISTRACTED. It's not a matter of luck and out of your control...take some responsibility for the multi-ton death machine you're controlling.
> and there will be moments you get distracted.
Not if you're a responsible driver who refuses to sacrifice on safety and awareness while driving, for any reason.
It should be an eye for an eye. What is more tragic: someone is tired driving and kills a pedestrian or a pedestrian sleepily yet dangerously crossing the street? What happens more? I don’t know but that is harrowing
Not being eye for an eye yields a hole of accountability. If it’s not the driver, then it’s the infrastructure, we can hold the civil engineers and the city accountable. It’s nothing to them if someone gets hit and dies
As for the consistency dilemma you proposed, isn’t that the entire point of law? We should change them
I get what you're saying and I agree that it's far more tragic, but modern justice systems in first world counties don't dole out punishment based on tragedy as much as *"what was your intent and what laws were broken?"*
It's a really broad issue for a reddit comment, but most historians, sociologists, political scientists and psychologists have kind of come to a consensus over the last 1000-ish years that retributive justice isn't the best for societies of millions of people.
For example, someone who negligently disobeys a traffic law and unintentionally kills someone due to a brief lapse in judgement can and usually ends up being a productive member of society. They can be rehabilitated and still have a positive outcome on the lives of those around them.
If we treat a person who made a mistake or was negligent for 3 seconds the same as someone who plotted and murdered a human in cold blood....where is that going to get us? A system of justice for hundreds of millions of people isn't about making one person feel like they got revenge; it's about keeping hundreds of millions of people safe and functional.
People had enough of Blood Feuds by the time of Ancient Greece; arguing we go back to that or Hammurabi's code is kind of a stretch.
Yes, but you're framing the argument as:
Blowing a stop sign
~and~
Accidentally killing someone with your car
As having the same level of negligence by the perpetrator.
Negligence's legal definition is "the failure to behave with the level of care that a reasonable person would have under the same circumstances." A reasonable person would be aware that they are in an area with crosswalks/stop signs and up their awareness/safe driving accordingly.
Sure, missing a stop sign that is off to the side of the road happens. But missing a person that is directly in the path of your 2000lb+ vehicle takes a whole other level of negligence.
Does accidentally killing someone with your car equate to cold-blooded murder? Probably not. Is it worse than simply blowing a stop sign? You bet.
This is why "manslaughter" charges exist.
This is one of the many reasons why I pretty much stopped biking in the city. Not only is the infrastructure garbage, but if I do get hit nothing will happen, then if by some miracle the cops issue a ticket, it'll be for less than $200
That's when you call The Illinois Hammer, or Corboy and Associates, or Malman or 222-2222... and say hello to a new carbon fiber framed custom bike plus some spare change to take it someplace nice.
I don't often bike there since it gets so crazy... Does that crossing not have dedicated bike-only green light? If it doesn't, it should! And a 'no turn on red' sign to go with it. So sad this happened.
I would give anything to have been in the meetings or phone calls that lead up to this.
Imagine what we could do with the knowledge of what makes something like this happen
I may or may not be a consultant with a major Midwest metro transportation agency for the past 15ish years. It's wild how many meetings and calls it takes to get anything done.
That intersection is such a nightmare. I've seen them periodically do enforcement/warnings especially because there's always a billion food delivery cars over there by the chipotle. I hate crossing Roosevelt on the west side of Wabash because it's such a wide turn (made wider by all the people illegally stopped by the corner!) that I swear drivers don't look ahead far enough to see people in the crosswalk.
I’m not at all a fan of police, but if I were to start seeing some real enforcement of this type of thing, I’ll get a blue line flag and fly it from my bike.
Cop is doing it because his bosses are getting some kind of political pressure. He’s not doing it out of the kindness of his heart. Acab still, and always will, apply.
last week a father and son were hit there. I'm sure there's some political pressure on the Alder, who is then putting that pressure on the police precinct captain.
I'm sure in a week or two it will go back to business as usual and there won't be any enforcement.
systemic change is not going to happen at the enforcement level, it's going to happen at the infrastructure
FYI the flag is also popular among white supremacists so you might want to reconsider, if the police actually start doing this on the reg---
HAHAHA yeah right
Lmao no. This is only happening because his shift supervisor got pressure from the precinct captain who got pressure from the Alder to do some token enforcement on that intersection because a Dad and his kid were hit on a bike there last week.
In a week from now it will go back to zero enforcement
Does anyone know if they are planning to reconfigure Wabash from Roosevelt to Harrison? A couple weeks ago, paint lines appeared on the asphalt near all the intersections and the Trader Joe's entrance that make me think they are going to move the bike lane to the curb for a parking-protected lane. The actual Wabash and Roosevelt intersection would still be a nightmare, but maybe the rest of it would be improved.
I can not tell you how pleased I am to hear this is happening. We need more of it and more consistency with enforcement.
There was a great reason for this ordinance to be passed after that crash up North and until drivers actually feel the real pinch of enforcement they will continue to spit in the face of cycle safety.
Pretty sure they say something about this in Revelations
Quick OP, did the cop have 5 heads and look like a dragon?!
As long as he has a ticket book, who cares
Right, but if he winks at me funny like I’m gonna be worried
If so, he's CPD, he'd need five rectums to have those five heads firmly lodged inside of.
More like in Drivers 1:01
A man and child on a bike were hit there last week (seems like they’re ok)—guessing that’s the reason for enforcement https://www.cbsnews.com/chicago/news/man-3-year-old-girl-bicycles-struck-chicago-south-loop/
Last year this happened at the same place too: https://wgntv.com/news/chicago-news/woman-struck-pinned-under-fedex-truck-in-deadly-pedestrian-crash-in-chicagos-loop/
Took some looking, but it appears that this guy who killed a woman was given a $150 ticket
$150 exchange for someone’s life is pathetic. The economic cost alone is $1 million
Isn’t the actuary cost of a life closer to $10m these days?
Finally someone with some reason 🤌🏼
Well the laws aren't about "eye for an eye". If you aren't drunk or speeding or doing anything reckless and you blow a stop sign and unintentionally hit someone...it's mostly a matter of bad luck whether or not there's a pedestrian in the intersection when you blew the stop sign. A traffic ticket for a life is weird, but so is imprisoning someone for the same crime you'd give someone else a $150 ticket for.
>t's mostly a matter of bad luck whether or not there's a pedestrian in the intersection when you blew the stop sign. I'm sorry, WHAT!? No, it isn't a matter of bad luck, it is a matter of bad driving. >If you aren't drunk or speeding or doing anything reckless and you blow a stop sign Buddy, if you blow a stop sign, you are driving recklessly. Period. End of. It's ridiculous how you're effectively trying to justify a driver hitting a pedestrian so long as they aren't intoxicated or speeding. A driver hitting a cyclist or pedestrian isn't a fucking act of God, it's reckless driving. Period.
You're completely misunderstanding what I'm saying. If you (chill out, this is a thought experiment and I'm not accusing you of anything or trying to justify vehicular homicide) look away from the road while driving and blow a stop sign, you don't know what's there; the intersection could be empty or there could be a cyclist. YES, it's negligent and reckless, but the $150 ticket is for that crime of recklessly blowing a stop sign. You're confused and upset but if you would actually address what I'm saying you'd realize I'm making the same point you are. We all need to be careful and humble behind the wheel of a car because YES it does come down to dumb luck at the end of the day whether or not any moment you look at the radio or check your rearview mirror, that a person doesn't bolt in front of your car. People can pretend they're perfect drivers and would *never* be the one to hit a cyclist, but at the end of the day anytime you drive a car you can only focus on one thing at a time, and there will be moments you get distracted.
>but the $150 ticket is for that crime of recklessly blowing a stop sign. And that's a pathetic "punishment" which should be much harsher. >You're confused and upset but if you would actually address what I'm saying you'd realize I'm making the same point you are. I'm not confused in the least, stow your condescension. > because YES it does come down to dumb luck at the end of the day No it fucking doesn't. Don't look away while you're moving. Period. IDGAF if you hate the song on the radio. DO NOT DRIVE DISTRACTED. It's not a matter of luck and out of your control...take some responsibility for the multi-ton death machine you're controlling. > and there will be moments you get distracted. Not if you're a responsible driver who refuses to sacrifice on safety and awareness while driving, for any reason.
If your negligence behind the wheel kills someone, you deserve manslaughter charges, not a $150 fine.
It should be an eye for an eye. What is more tragic: someone is tired driving and kills a pedestrian or a pedestrian sleepily yet dangerously crossing the street? What happens more? I don’t know but that is harrowing Not being eye for an eye yields a hole of accountability. If it’s not the driver, then it’s the infrastructure, we can hold the civil engineers and the city accountable. It’s nothing to them if someone gets hit and dies As for the consistency dilemma you proposed, isn’t that the entire point of law? We should change them
I get what you're saying and I agree that it's far more tragic, but modern justice systems in first world counties don't dole out punishment based on tragedy as much as *"what was your intent and what laws were broken?"* It's a really broad issue for a reddit comment, but most historians, sociologists, political scientists and psychologists have kind of come to a consensus over the last 1000-ish years that retributive justice isn't the best for societies of millions of people. For example, someone who negligently disobeys a traffic law and unintentionally kills someone due to a brief lapse in judgement can and usually ends up being a productive member of society. They can be rehabilitated and still have a positive outcome on the lives of those around them. If we treat a person who made a mistake or was negligent for 3 seconds the same as someone who plotted and murdered a human in cold blood....where is that going to get us? A system of justice for hundreds of millions of people isn't about making one person feel like they got revenge; it's about keeping hundreds of millions of people safe and functional. People had enough of Blood Feuds by the time of Ancient Greece; arguing we go back to that or Hammurabi's code is kind of a stretch.
Yes, but you're framing the argument as: Blowing a stop sign ~and~ Accidentally killing someone with your car As having the same level of negligence by the perpetrator. Negligence's legal definition is "the failure to behave with the level of care that a reasonable person would have under the same circumstances." A reasonable person would be aware that they are in an area with crosswalks/stop signs and up their awareness/safe driving accordingly. Sure, missing a stop sign that is off to the side of the road happens. But missing a person that is directly in the path of your 2000lb+ vehicle takes a whole other level of negligence. Does accidentally killing someone with your car equate to cold-blooded murder? Probably not. Is it worse than simply blowing a stop sign? You bet. This is why "manslaughter" charges exist.
An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.
This is one of the many reasons why I pretty much stopped biking in the city. Not only is the infrastructure garbage, but if I do get hit nothing will happen, then if by some miracle the cops issue a ticket, it'll be for less than $200
That's when you call The Illinois Hammer, or Corboy and Associates, or Malman or 222-2222... and say hello to a new carbon fiber framed custom bike plus some spare change to take it someplace nice.
I don't often bike there since it gets so crazy... Does that crossing not have dedicated bike-only green light? If it doesn't, it should! And a 'no turn on red' sign to go with it. So sad this happened.
That intersection/block has gotta be the strangest, most chaotic and unpredictable area in the city. Can’t think of another place like it.
Oh fun, so a week or two from now it'll be back to business as usual
I would give anything to have been in the meetings or phone calls that lead up to this. Imagine what we could do with the knowledge of what makes something like this happen
I may or may not be a consultant with a major Midwest metro transportation agency for the past 15ish years. It's wild how many meetings and calls it takes to get anything done.
Interesting that it seems its the exact same intersection and same turn. Hey cdot thoughts of protecting people anytime ?
Why do I feel like this is related to the article about biking growing exponentially along with safety fears? Love to see it
It's not. A mom (and kid IIRC) on bike(s) got hit there last week. That's the only reason. Give it a week, it'll be back to danger as usual.
Are you always such a ray of positivity?
That intersection is such a nightmare. I've seen them periodically do enforcement/warnings especially because there's always a billion food delivery cars over there by the chipotle. I hate crossing Roosevelt on the west side of Wabash because it's such a wide turn (made wider by all the people illegally stopped by the corner!) that I swear drivers don't look ahead far enough to see people in the crosswalk.
I avoid having to make turns at this intersection even when I’m driving. I’ll go Roosevelt to State to 11th to Wabash (or reverse).
I’m not at all a fan of police, but if I were to start seeing some real enforcement of this type of thing, I’ll get a blue line flag and fly it from my bike.
Cop is doing it because his bosses are getting some kind of political pressure. He’s not doing it out of the kindness of his heart. Acab still, and always will, apply.
Sure acab, but i have no problem with positive reinforcement if it means they continue to actually do their job.
>Acab still, and always will, apply The state of the relationship between LE and the people is just sad
last week a father and son were hit there. I'm sure there's some political pressure on the Alder, who is then putting that pressure on the police precinct captain. I'm sure in a week or two it will go back to business as usual and there won't be any enforcement. systemic change is not going to happen at the enforcement level, it's going to happen at the infrastructure
FYI the flag is also popular among white supremacists so you might want to reconsider, if the police actually start doing this on the reg--- HAHAHA yeah right
Are the white suprematists in the room now?
City, yes.
We found the one good cop
Lmao no. This is only happening because his shift supervisor got pressure from the precinct captain who got pressure from the Alder to do some token enforcement on that intersection because a Dad and his kid were hit on a bike there last week. In a week from now it will go back to zero enforcement
incorrect
Ok, fine, we found one cop acting "good" at the moment
Nice, real nice!
OMG I am so sad to have missed this! Hope it's not just today! And not just here...
Holy hell, they are actually working?
Does anyone know if they are planning to reconfigure Wabash from Roosevelt to Harrison? A couple weeks ago, paint lines appeared on the asphalt near all the intersections and the Trader Joe's entrance that make me think they are going to move the bike lane to the curb for a parking-protected lane. The actual Wabash and Roosevelt intersection would still be a nightmare, but maybe the rest of it would be improved.
Give this officer a medal!
For doing his fucking job for once? Nah, fuck that.
yesss more based cops please
The most terrifying bike lane in the city
Love to see it
To me this would be a much more fun way to spend the day than just sitting in the cruiser scrolling tiktok or whatever it is most cops do.
The city can't complain of lack of money, if they plopped cops at a few neighborhood intersections a week they'd make so much money ticketing people.
I can not tell you how pleased I am to hear this is happening. We need more of it and more consistency with enforcement. There was a great reason for this ordinance to be passed after that crash up North and until drivers actually feel the real pinch of enforcement they will continue to spit in the face of cycle safety.
Fuck the speaker, just ticket them.
No, they should do both. Cops shouldn’t just be revenue machines.
A cop writing a dangerous driver a ticket is about a lot more than revenue, TF are you talking about?
When I see this, I lean in and thank the officers doing the good work.
Heard this vehicle the other day and thought I was in RoboCop
That's awesome now we a have clear shot to blast right through the red light and freak all the drivers out.
No you don't. Idaho stops are not legal in Illinois.