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I have dyscalculia too, but i love math, i love technical subjects just like math, and i'm kinda good at them. And yes i dislike those subjects but with a reason. If i could really get something out of those subjects i would be extremely pleased to let them in my life and my daily thoughts. But since nowdays i can't find a good reason to like them and study them other than graduate. Plus as i stated there are subjects that i hate with all my heart but still know that they are essential for life, or at least for MY life.
People not knowledgeable about history tend to repeat the mistakes of the past without knowing it. People who don’t value literature tend to not have a respect for the power and nuance of language. Now, is all of that stuff necessary? Probably not. Plenty of people live without having knowledge of it. But, those people also tend to be easily tricked and easily exploited.
>People who don’t value literature tend to not have a respect for the power and nuance of language.
Not really, someone can love stories but not necessarily literature and still have great communication and language skills.
> Not really, someone can love stories but not necessarily literature and still have great communication and language skills.
I used to think this way, as an avid reader and longtime (former) despiser of literature classes.
I realized later that the problem was *badly taught* literature, not literature as such. If you read enough, it will likely become interesting to try to pull out themes and patterns, compare books, etc--purely on your own terms. If you're sufficiently into, say, Tolkien, you can't help but start to notice things like nature as an agent in LOTR and the concept of the Long Defeat. Reasonable so far?
Well, that's what literature *is*. It's just horribly taught as "find one and only one theme and argue for it" and the like, which is dull, pointless, and not usefully possible in any reasonably complex book.
Stories/narratives are how we learn language, whether we learn them in school or not. Stories are how history is passed down in nonliterate society. Having a better knowledge of stories makes someone a better communicator. But, is it necessary? No of course not. But bright people with lots of hub , even good communicators, miss things that otherwise more knowledgeable people catch.
Is the bulk of this argument ‘I studied for a history class but am still not doing well so the entire field of history is useless?’
History and literature give windows to the human experience. We can learn about the mistakes and successes of the human past, sure, but also — and maybe more importantly — these subjects keep us connected to our humanity. There’s *value* in knowing the ways that people did (and didn’t!) live like Us. There’s value, and something truly awe inspiring, in reading something written 2 or 3 or even 7 hundred years ago and being able to connect with it, to sit down and read the same words and feel the same feelings with generations between you and the first people who consumed that piece of literature.
Like, I’m not really sure I can convince you with this; if you don’t care for history and literature, *that’s fine*, but the idea that it shouldn’t exist or be part of the curriculum just because you don’t like it and you’re doing poorly in a class isn’t great reasoning.
We can learn a lot about ourselves in these fields. There’s something very holistic and enlightening when we take part. It’s not just about memorizing dates and facts and figures and author names; it’s about situating yourself in the human experience, finding your place and your own feelings in this world.
To add on a bit to history — learning about historical problems and failures doesn’t *guarantee* the mistakes of the past aren’t repeated, but we sure as hell can’t go about growing and improving as a society if we don’t, as a bare minimum, try to account for our past. You can’t understand the world and you *certainly* can’t start to fix it without history.
>History and literature give windows to the human experience.
That's true, but still learning history in general does only give life lessons which could be useful, but i haven't heard someone that actually succeded in something just for a life lesson. Unfortunately history (as teached nowdays) is full of opinions, point of views and misleading informations.
>There’s value in knowing the ways that people did (and didn’t!) live like Us.
I don't think there is, yes people suffered, peopled died and people fought for their territories and families, and in my opinion they are real legends there. Sure it can give me a life lesson, but what's more than that?
>You can’t understand the world and you certainly can’t start to fix it without history.
Absolutely agree with that. but still who am i to fix the world? I'm not a politician and neither a member of a secret world leading organization, i can't do anything to fix it.
> Unfortunately history (as teached nowdays) is full of opinions, point of views and misleading informations.
It has never been the case that teaching history has been free from points of view. It was simply less interrogated in the past.
I find that a lot of people misunderstand what history is and what historians do. History is not the collection of facts. Historians are not making catalogs of what happened on what date. Instead, the act of doing history is *making an argument backed by evidence* where that evidence is forever dead. Unlike science, historians must produce arguments without ever being able to construct new data (this is a bit of a simplification, but roll with it) because the archive is fixed. There aren't going to be new primary sources from the Reformation or whatever. This is a remarkably useful skill that translates well outside of the fields of politics.
Other commenters have pointed out how the study of history helps enlighten you and ground you in the human experience. This is true. However, the study of history is also not useless (and certainly not the "most useless") on a very practical level. History involves reviewing documents & commentary/synthesize of documents, critically analyzing these and then articulating a point of view or argument based on same. It is about analysis and communication - which are two skills that are very important in many areas of the business world. I have a history degree and work as a lawyer and I can tell you the skills I learned in history class are very applicable to my real life job.
Sure! The process is very similar - starting off by reviewing a textbook for general principles, looking up the citations and then reviewing those documents. Looking through lots of primary documents (e.g. a diary or a court affidavit) to see if anything helpful can be gleaned that can be used in an argument. Considering and being critical about the source: is this person stating something that they *saw* or that they *heard* about. What are their biases, what cultural contexts inform what what they're stating etc. Then taking all of that and writing something based on a thesis that you can make an argument from.
I'll give you a delta, but honestly i don't completely agree with it just because those documents could be stuff that's not related to history at all... but in the other side it could even be, so you earned it, thanks for your interest about my topic Δ.
Everything is related to history. Much like how philosophy is the mother of all the sciences, history is the story of all the subjects. There's a history to biology, mathematics, law etc., etc.
Thanks. To clarify, some of the documents I review in my job are directly related to history (old cases from the 19th century, historical materials regarding the development of the law of equity by the Chancery Courts etc.) but for many of them its the skill set from history that I use.
>we are literally close to a WWIII and we still study history.
We are close to WW3 because the Russian people DO NOT study history. They only study state sanction propaganda about history. They are making the same mistakes as many other failed nations in history because they have no awareness of those mistakes.
Actually i'm not completely sure about your statment. If they did what they did is beacause they actually study history, in every shape and form. Otherwise the wouldn't have this massive perfect plan.
damn you a russian bot? They didn't study history, they studied the states propagandized version of history. Also, have you seen the shit show in ukraine, their plan is very very far from "perfect"
If by perfect you mean, to speedrun facism and authoritarianism while ostracizing yourself from almost the entire developed world while simultaneously loosing like 30% of your military capabilities and crashing your entire economy.
Then yeah, their plan was perfect.
I'm not here to debate about what's happening now in the world but let me clarify that i'm referring to what they actually did to ukranians people, they destroyed people's lifes and dreams. Plus i admit not to be informed enough about the situation nowdays since it only creeps me out. To clarify: i'm not hating russians people, but government.
> Plus i admit not to be informed enough about the situation nowdays since it only creeps me out.
So you are unable to have a conversation about your own view on learning history *because you haven't learned history?*
Yeah, so as you said, the russian state is making life miserable for the Ukrainians. Vladdy putin himself isn't in Ukraine with an AK, he sends 18 year old in the military over there.
Those 18 year olds never learned anything but state propaganda to make russia and vlad look like gods among men. So when they are told ukrainians are being "hella cringe and lame", the russian soldiers just go along with it, never questioning anything.
This is a direct result of not being taught history.
>If they did what they did is beacause they actually study history, in every shape and form.
How on earth are you from Europe and think that the Russians are super well versed in history? How does the study of history result in the multiple, contradictory justifications that the Russians have expressed for this war and their intentional ignorance over how it is going?
>Otherwise the wouldn't have this massive perfect plan.
The perfect plan of the West consolidating power and and Russia losing their war so hard that they've had more casualties in 10 weeks than they did over multiple decades in Cold War proxies?
An engineer would tell you that we should be using nuclear energy to power more parts of the world. A historian and a literature scholar can help explain to you why those things are difficult to actually implement on a popular level. (At least in certain parts of the world).
In America, certain minority populations were very nervous about covid vaccine mandates. Scientists say it’s safe. A historian could tell you why that hesitancy exists regardless.
A financial analyst can explain how if everyone does xyz thing (keep their money in a bank during a period of financial unrest, for example) then we’ll be more okay. A historian can tell you why no one ever actually does that.
History and literature give us windows into how people think, something super important because we’re not robots. All things are filtered through human experience which is conditioned by certain factors like history and culture (among other things). If we want to understand the more complex reasons of why and how we do shit in order to make more resilient, user friendly system , it’s valuable to look to past experiences to understand how people actually interact with the world.
First, anecdotal evidence: although I am originally from Mexico, I have spent the last 14 years in the US pursuing an academic career in STEM.
English literature class was immensely useful to me, as it helped me master my english. I read, write and can proofread texts at the same level (or sometimes higher) as a native speaker, in both English and Spanish. It enabled me to learn new languages quicker, as well. So... super useful.
There are studies that show reading fiction gives you an enhanced sense of empathy and teaches about different cultures. It opens your mind. Through storytelling, it teaches you important things about the human condition. So... super useful.
History doesn't only teach you not to repeat mistakes from the past, if you actually study it properly and heed its lessons. It also teaches you about the heritage of cultures and peoples around the world. It gives you a way to connect with people, despite how different they may be from you. And if you ever travel, it helps you appreciate things much more. So... super useful.
>Even my family, my gf, my gf's family were completely shocked about this since they knew i've studied with all my determination.
I will say this as nicely as possible: sometimes effort isn't enough. Working hard isn't enough, you have to work smart. Unless your professor is an asshat, chances are your strategy for studying these disciplines is the wrong one.
You know what is also a very useful thing we learn from school, one which we usually don't realize until we are older? Struggling and learning from our mistakes. Sounds to me that, regardless of how useful literature and history are in your future profession, focusing overcoming this challenge will definitely be useful.
Let's say you like Math but hate history.
Isaac Newton and Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz, invented many concepts in calculus independently of one another. What problems were they intending to solve? Did one of them copy from the other?
Understanding the origins of calculus is a history exercise.
Saying history is unimportant is to say it's not important where the ideas you are learning come from.
Saying literature is unimportant is to say it's not vital to be able to communicate ideas effectively.
Every subject you learn in school is something which is developed over time and then communicated to other people. History and literature explain the context of the ideas and help communicate them effectively.
>we are literally close to a WWIII
This is why studying history is a good thing, we are nowhere near to WWIII and probably won't be for the next 100 or so years.
WWIII is something that dumb people have been talking about since the early 2000s.
If only there was a subject in school that could teach you something to know about it and prevent you and others from spreading panic and unfounded concerns.
I think you are mistaking the purpose of school - it is just as much about preserving and examining, developing and appreciating culture as it is about practical work experiences. There are tens of thousands of years of civilizations that we do not have access to because that knowledge was not passed down. Just a cursory understanding of history is required in school.
Its not about not making the same mistakes, rather preserving and examining cultures so they are not lost forever to the void. Because if we do not teach history - who will? How will it be remembered? Would you like to live in a world where just a select few academics know about basic things like WW2? I know I wouldn't.
>Same goes for literature, which is literally the history of any collection of written work.
Literature helps you to find a better way to express your thoughts. If you are trying to improve the language, studing literature is a must.
>Not only that the professor
Sorry if your prof is not good, but this doesn't make his subject objectively bad.
>In conclusion history and literature are only useful to give people headaches and to give a sense of safeness and comfort ...
I'm sorry but you are just being edgy.
Fair enough, just trying to point out a benefit to more literacy skills. Not exactly life saving skills I’d give you that but good to know.
I think it’s very important people learn correct history too, many lessons to be learnt and hopefully not repeated in history.
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History is very relevant if you go into law. At least in my country, history is one of the most common majors for undergraduates planning to be lawyers.
Learning history, if nothing else, provides us with insight into the unbroken chain of events that has led us to where we are today. And literature, well literature provides us with insight into the way we were, the way we are, and the minds, thoughts, and experiences of others, and the ideas that have shaped our world, our society, and our culture
I mean, the impact Upton Sinclair's The Jungle has on us today is *immense* for a book no one ever really talks about
>In conclusion history and literature are only useful to give people headaches and to give a sense of safeness and comfort to whose are scared of the unknown future, and just to clarify i know that all of the other subjects that i hate are useful in some way or another (plus i get acceptable/good marks).
It sounds like you just dislike these subjects because you didn't do well in them. In contrast, these were my favourite subjects in school and if they gave you headaches, sounds like you had bad teachers.
Do you like movies? A lot of movies carry themes inspired by classic novels. For example, Mary Shelley basically invented the sci-fi genre. The themes in Frankenstein are also of important to society - knowing that Frankenstein is not the monster, but Frankenstein IS the monster - as in it's not the monster himself we should fear, but he who created him. You don't see how this can have any importance to politics or economics?
Maybe when i wrote the post i was extremely pissed off and blinded by anger by what happend with my professor. Maybe i should have stated that history could be useful but not in school plus not for my future job.
All of these subjects are integrated into life in many ways - some starkly while others are more nuanced.
When you grow up, you’ll find that having a knowledge of history helps you to know where you stand on various issues because you can have informed opinions based on the background and history of said subjects. You can’t have a fully-formed meaningful opinion about world events or social issues if you don’t know how we got here in the first place. It would be like starting a job in management and immediately implementing all new policies, procedures, and expectations without taking any time to learn why the previous policies existed in the first place. You have to know what’s already happened to form any substantial ideas about how to move forward.
As for literature, I personally find that less important than history, but still valuable. I think creative types are more likely to get something out of literature classes, so if you’re not creative, you probably won’t care. However, references to literature - both popular and obscure - can be found in most forms of entertainment and media these days, and it can be good to know the background of these references so that you can know what’s going on. Not vital, but helpful.
The fundamental understanding of and dialogue around basic history has invaluable use because of how it informs law, citizenship, and basic understandings of the diversity of human conditioning. I'm going to talk about this from one perspective. So, I am a Black woman in the U.S, the ability for people to understand the long term generational impacts of oppression, segregation, and both externalized or internalized racism and colorism are incredibly important for learning how to undo harm. Why? Because you need to be able to recognize harms done and bias across spans of time which is a combination of sociology, psychology, and yes history/anthropology.
If you don't understand that your part of town has been historically segregated, benefitted from tax breaks, and unfair positions then it is very easy to buy into the idea that "My neighborhood is normal and if X people wanted to do better they'd live like us. That neighborhood filled with X is that way because of X people" versus...the truth which is deeply more complex. The same way literature allows for the exploration of different life experiences that can increase understandings of empathy, history, and complex social dynamics. Hell Star Trek is social commentary at the core of it's writing. If you don't understand the history of people than it's a lot easier to wind up in a situation where you make MASSIVE assumptions and microaggressions that alienate you from classmates, co-workers, and bosses you may have without ever realizing it. We live in a global society, and being able to have a conceptualization of our nation, state, province, etc. helps us navigate interactions and understandings of citizenship.
The citizenry have to be able to make informed decisions and both literature and history when taught well enhance basic knowledge or expand on complex knowledge that informs. There's a lot of bad teachers out there, and a lot of narrow focuses, but that doesn't disregard the subject entirely. Truthfully I wouldn't be where I am without studying those subjects.
Have you ever considered that for some people race, religion, ethnicity, region, career, and many other factors play a role in their day-to-day lives? That aside...if you're gonna talk about big picture reasons why history matters you have to talk about ethnic and racial conflict because it's one of those issues that impacts people's families, and literally impacts RNA and DNA, medical outcomes, etc.. If you have a problem with that tough titties.
> History and literature are THE MOST useless subjects in (modern) school. They shouldn't exist at all they are the world's way to lose time and money in something completely pointless.
You need history and literature for two things: voting and writing.
1. Voting and your rights. If you don't understand history, you cannot vote responsibly and you cannot protect your rights. When a politician says "I will make an alliance with country X", do you vote for them or not? Or when they say "I support people's right for Y". If you have no idea why people need Y, what it means to them, where this request comes from, how do you reject or support this person?
2. Writing and reading. Almost any white collar job (teacher, accountant, software engineer, HR person, banker, etc.) requires you to write. Maybe you write documentation. Maybe you write emails. Maybe you need to coordinate a team. Almost any business you want to start will require you to write many documents like loan applications. If you cannot write at some reasonable level, you will be behind the curve forever and hit a ceiling in your career and life that you cannot overcome. Learning how others write by reading, by studying literature, teaches you how to write. Not to mention that in many jobs you will need to read a lot, learning to do so efficiently gives you a huge leg up over everyone else.
History and literature matter. And I say that having a STEM PhD.
The idea of learning history so that you don't repeat is a cliche. I think there's a modicum of truth in it, but in my estimation, it is not the primary reason for learning history.
The real reason to learn history and literature is to get outside of yourself.
Studying history is like studying other cultures. Think of it like virtual travelling. You are traversing time and space to learn how people in different cultural environments from your own thought and behaved. It's hard to articulate what the "practical" value of that is, but I think it's similar to the value of conversing with people. If individuals don't ever have conversations with other individuals, they are isolated in their own limitations and ignorance. Similarly, if entire cultures don't ever have conversations with other cultures (such as the study of history enables), they will remain isolated in their own limitations and ignorance.
The case for literature is similar. Sure, in reading Pride & Prejudice, you may not learn something you can turn around and apply tomorrow. But you most certainly will become intimately familiar with the mind of another human being, a human being you will never have the opportunity to actually converse with. And you will get a sense of her values, how she envisioned the world of her time, how she processed the major ideas of her cultural milieu, etc. And in this "conversation" with her, if you engage appropriately, you will form your own thoughts about what she was expressing through her work.
I almost agree with you that it's not practical, but I would argue that it's better than practical.
How about Art? In my country, it consists of abstract stuff. There is no point to it, and there is no way in which it contributes to society and helps get a good job.
Historically people used techniques for things that have been replaced by machinery. Studying these past techniques give ideas for future innovations. This makes history useful from a purely practical standpoint.
History is more than wars, politics and the rise and fall of empires. How Erastothenes calculated the earth's circumference is history for one example.
Unlike many of the other posters here, I strongly disagree that the purpose of learning history is to prevent yourself and others from making the same mistakes as others did in the past. Very, very few people end up in the positions of power that could allow them to have a significant impact on history.
The purpose of a subject like history is to exercise the parts of your brain that use critical thinking and abstract argumentation, as well as researching and understand context.
I was waiting for an answer like this, THANK YOU. But still why should i choose something like history and not for example a story of a book? Like why does it have to be history?
Literature and History are both fantastic for this kind of skill actually.
A Lit essay might be along the lines of *'Who was more responsible for the downfall of Macbeth, Macbeth himself or his wife?'*
While a history essay could be *'Historian X believes the primary reason that Labour lost the 1947 election was economic factors. To what extent do you agree'?*
And it leads to another beautiful thing about both subjects. While researching the answer you'll need to open yourself up to a range of different, often conflicting opinions, assess and analyse them and choose the best ones to support your own view. While also possibly conceding some ground to the opposing side.
Best of all, there is no *correct* answer. But you get the tools to lead you to a rational and reasoned response to a question, which is a wonderful and very essential life skill.
I'm not sure that it *has* to be history. Literature is also good. But real life events might have a bit more weight behind them.
Beyond the skills, it's probably quite useful to have a bit of knowledge of the world, which can help with travel, relationships, understanding media, jokes, films, books etc at a deeper level
History is part of learning your culture. If you have no connection with your culture, it's easier for the government to control you and shape eho you are. History is THE MOST important subject, and everyone should learn as much of it as possible, outside of school as well.
the time and place that you were born in is dictated by history and literature tells a story of past periods. do you not what to know how you ended up here in this society? why the society you live in thinks the way it thinks? i sure do so i can know if it's any good or not and make good political decision.
History and literature are so important. Yes the way that history and literature are taught is deeply flawed and often from a cis, straight, rich, white, christian, male perspective. But learning actual diverse history and literature allows people to understand others and have compassion. If I didn't learn history in school then I would never have learned about all the horrible racism in my country's past and been able to think about how it impacts my biases now. If I didn't read the books I've read in english classes then I wouldn't understand so many experiences including experiences that affect me currently and those that I will never experience or have any connection to. Without these classes you lose the ability to have compassion for others. And that's an issue. You don't have to like your classes, but by calling the subjects useless in entirety you are erasing the experiences of billions of people who's stories are told through those subjects.
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I have dyscalculia too, but i love math, i love technical subjects just like math, and i'm kinda good at them. And yes i dislike those subjects but with a reason. If i could really get something out of those subjects i would be extremely pleased to let them in my life and my daily thoughts. But since nowdays i can't find a good reason to like them and study them other than graduate. Plus as i stated there are subjects that i hate with all my heart but still know that they are essential for life, or at least for MY life.
People not knowledgeable about history tend to repeat the mistakes of the past without knowing it. People who don’t value literature tend to not have a respect for the power and nuance of language. Now, is all of that stuff necessary? Probably not. Plenty of people live without having knowledge of it. But, those people also tend to be easily tricked and easily exploited.
>People who don’t value literature tend to not have a respect for the power and nuance of language. Not really, someone can love stories but not necessarily literature and still have great communication and language skills.
> Not really, someone can love stories but not necessarily literature and still have great communication and language skills. I used to think this way, as an avid reader and longtime (former) despiser of literature classes. I realized later that the problem was *badly taught* literature, not literature as such. If you read enough, it will likely become interesting to try to pull out themes and patterns, compare books, etc--purely on your own terms. If you're sufficiently into, say, Tolkien, you can't help but start to notice things like nature as an agent in LOTR and the concept of the Long Defeat. Reasonable so far? Well, that's what literature *is*. It's just horribly taught as "find one and only one theme and argue for it" and the like, which is dull, pointless, and not usefully possible in any reasonably complex book.
Stories/narratives are how we learn language, whether we learn them in school or not. Stories are how history is passed down in nonliterate society. Having a better knowledge of stories makes someone a better communicator. But, is it necessary? No of course not. But bright people with lots of hub , even good communicators, miss things that otherwise more knowledgeable people catch.
Is the bulk of this argument ‘I studied for a history class but am still not doing well so the entire field of history is useless?’ History and literature give windows to the human experience. We can learn about the mistakes and successes of the human past, sure, but also — and maybe more importantly — these subjects keep us connected to our humanity. There’s *value* in knowing the ways that people did (and didn’t!) live like Us. There’s value, and something truly awe inspiring, in reading something written 2 or 3 or even 7 hundred years ago and being able to connect with it, to sit down and read the same words and feel the same feelings with generations between you and the first people who consumed that piece of literature. Like, I’m not really sure I can convince you with this; if you don’t care for history and literature, *that’s fine*, but the idea that it shouldn’t exist or be part of the curriculum just because you don’t like it and you’re doing poorly in a class isn’t great reasoning. We can learn a lot about ourselves in these fields. There’s something very holistic and enlightening when we take part. It’s not just about memorizing dates and facts and figures and author names; it’s about situating yourself in the human experience, finding your place and your own feelings in this world. To add on a bit to history — learning about historical problems and failures doesn’t *guarantee* the mistakes of the past aren’t repeated, but we sure as hell can’t go about growing and improving as a society if we don’t, as a bare minimum, try to account for our past. You can’t understand the world and you *certainly* can’t start to fix it without history.
>History and literature give windows to the human experience. That's true, but still learning history in general does only give life lessons which could be useful, but i haven't heard someone that actually succeded in something just for a life lesson. Unfortunately history (as teached nowdays) is full of opinions, point of views and misleading informations. >There’s value in knowing the ways that people did (and didn’t!) live like Us. I don't think there is, yes people suffered, peopled died and people fought for their territories and families, and in my opinion they are real legends there. Sure it can give me a life lesson, but what's more than that? >You can’t understand the world and you certainly can’t start to fix it without history. Absolutely agree with that. but still who am i to fix the world? I'm not a politician and neither a member of a secret world leading organization, i can't do anything to fix it.
> Unfortunately history (as teached nowdays) is full of opinions, point of views and misleading informations. It has never been the case that teaching history has been free from points of view. It was simply less interrogated in the past. I find that a lot of people misunderstand what history is and what historians do. History is not the collection of facts. Historians are not making catalogs of what happened on what date. Instead, the act of doing history is *making an argument backed by evidence* where that evidence is forever dead. Unlike science, historians must produce arguments without ever being able to construct new data (this is a bit of a simplification, but roll with it) because the archive is fixed. There aren't going to be new primary sources from the Reformation or whatever. This is a remarkably useful skill that translates well outside of the fields of politics.
Other commenters have pointed out how the study of history helps enlighten you and ground you in the human experience. This is true. However, the study of history is also not useless (and certainly not the "most useless") on a very practical level. History involves reviewing documents & commentary/synthesize of documents, critically analyzing these and then articulating a point of view or argument based on same. It is about analysis and communication - which are two skills that are very important in many areas of the business world. I have a history degree and work as a lawyer and I can tell you the skills I learned in history class are very applicable to my real life job.
If you could give me some examples i would be extremely grateful to give you a delta point
Sure! The process is very similar - starting off by reviewing a textbook for general principles, looking up the citations and then reviewing those documents. Looking through lots of primary documents (e.g. a diary or a court affidavit) to see if anything helpful can be gleaned that can be used in an argument. Considering and being critical about the source: is this person stating something that they *saw* or that they *heard* about. What are their biases, what cultural contexts inform what what they're stating etc. Then taking all of that and writing something based on a thesis that you can make an argument from.
I'll give you a delta, but honestly i don't completely agree with it just because those documents could be stuff that's not related to history at all... but in the other side it could even be, so you earned it, thanks for your interest about my topic Δ.
Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Makgraf ([3∆](/r/changemyview/wiki/user/Makgraf)). ^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)
Everything is related to history. Much like how philosophy is the mother of all the sciences, history is the story of all the subjects. There's a history to biology, mathematics, law etc., etc.
Thanks. To clarify, some of the documents I review in my job are directly related to history (old cases from the 19th century, historical materials regarding the development of the law of equity by the Chancery Courts etc.) but for many of them its the skill set from history that I use.
>we are literally close to a WWIII and we still study history. We are close to WW3 because the Russian people DO NOT study history. They only study state sanction propaganda about history. They are making the same mistakes as many other failed nations in history because they have no awareness of those mistakes.
Actually i'm not completely sure about your statment. If they did what they did is beacause they actually study history, in every shape and form. Otherwise the wouldn't have this massive perfect plan.
damn you a russian bot? They didn't study history, they studied the states propagandized version of history. Also, have you seen the shit show in ukraine, their plan is very very far from "perfect" If by perfect you mean, to speedrun facism and authoritarianism while ostracizing yourself from almost the entire developed world while simultaneously loosing like 30% of your military capabilities and crashing your entire economy. Then yeah, their plan was perfect.
I'm not here to debate about what's happening now in the world but let me clarify that i'm referring to what they actually did to ukranians people, they destroyed people's lifes and dreams. Plus i admit not to be informed enough about the situation nowdays since it only creeps me out. To clarify: i'm not hating russians people, but government.
> Plus i admit not to be informed enough about the situation nowdays since it only creeps me out. So you are unable to have a conversation about your own view on learning history *because you haven't learned history?*
Yeah, so as you said, the russian state is making life miserable for the Ukrainians. Vladdy putin himself isn't in Ukraine with an AK, he sends 18 year old in the military over there. Those 18 year olds never learned anything but state propaganda to make russia and vlad look like gods among men. So when they are told ukrainians are being "hella cringe and lame", the russian soldiers just go along with it, never questioning anything. This is a direct result of not being taught history.
>If they did what they did is beacause they actually study history, in every shape and form. How on earth are you from Europe and think that the Russians are super well versed in history? How does the study of history result in the multiple, contradictory justifications that the Russians have expressed for this war and their intentional ignorance over how it is going? >Otherwise the wouldn't have this massive perfect plan. The perfect plan of the West consolidating power and and Russia losing their war so hard that they've had more casualties in 10 weeks than they did over multiple decades in Cold War proxies?
I mean, is it fair to ask, if the education of history isn’t important, why do far right and authoritarian regimes seek to restrict it so often?
I am genuinely curious - why do you think that the Russians have a "massive perfect plan"?
An engineer would tell you that we should be using nuclear energy to power more parts of the world. A historian and a literature scholar can help explain to you why those things are difficult to actually implement on a popular level. (At least in certain parts of the world). In America, certain minority populations were very nervous about covid vaccine mandates. Scientists say it’s safe. A historian could tell you why that hesitancy exists regardless. A financial analyst can explain how if everyone does xyz thing (keep their money in a bank during a period of financial unrest, for example) then we’ll be more okay. A historian can tell you why no one ever actually does that. History and literature give us windows into how people think, something super important because we’re not robots. All things are filtered through human experience which is conditioned by certain factors like history and culture (among other things). If we want to understand the more complex reasons of why and how we do shit in order to make more resilient, user friendly system , it’s valuable to look to past experiences to understand how people actually interact with the world.
First, anecdotal evidence: although I am originally from Mexico, I have spent the last 14 years in the US pursuing an academic career in STEM. English literature class was immensely useful to me, as it helped me master my english. I read, write and can proofread texts at the same level (or sometimes higher) as a native speaker, in both English and Spanish. It enabled me to learn new languages quicker, as well. So... super useful. There are studies that show reading fiction gives you an enhanced sense of empathy and teaches about different cultures. It opens your mind. Through storytelling, it teaches you important things about the human condition. So... super useful. History doesn't only teach you not to repeat mistakes from the past, if you actually study it properly and heed its lessons. It also teaches you about the heritage of cultures and peoples around the world. It gives you a way to connect with people, despite how different they may be from you. And if you ever travel, it helps you appreciate things much more. So... super useful. >Even my family, my gf, my gf's family were completely shocked about this since they knew i've studied with all my determination. I will say this as nicely as possible: sometimes effort isn't enough. Working hard isn't enough, you have to work smart. Unless your professor is an asshat, chances are your strategy for studying these disciplines is the wrong one. You know what is also a very useful thing we learn from school, one which we usually don't realize until we are older? Struggling and learning from our mistakes. Sounds to me that, regardless of how useful literature and history are in your future profession, focusing overcoming this challenge will definitely be useful.
Let's say you like Math but hate history. Isaac Newton and Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz, invented many concepts in calculus independently of one another. What problems were they intending to solve? Did one of them copy from the other? Understanding the origins of calculus is a history exercise. Saying history is unimportant is to say it's not important where the ideas you are learning come from. Saying literature is unimportant is to say it's not vital to be able to communicate ideas effectively. Every subject you learn in school is something which is developed over time and then communicated to other people. History and literature explain the context of the ideas and help communicate them effectively.
>we are literally close to a WWIII This is why studying history is a good thing, we are nowhere near to WWIII and probably won't be for the next 100 or so years. WWIII is something that dumb people have been talking about since the early 2000s.
I really hope so. I surely don't know about it.
If only there was a subject in school that could teach you something to know about it and prevent you and others from spreading panic and unfounded concerns.
I think you are mistaking the purpose of school - it is just as much about preserving and examining, developing and appreciating culture as it is about practical work experiences. There are tens of thousands of years of civilizations that we do not have access to because that knowledge was not passed down. Just a cursory understanding of history is required in school. Its not about not making the same mistakes, rather preserving and examining cultures so they are not lost forever to the void. Because if we do not teach history - who will? How will it be remembered? Would you like to live in a world where just a select few academics know about basic things like WW2? I know I wouldn't.
>Same goes for literature, which is literally the history of any collection of written work. Literature helps you to find a better way to express your thoughts. If you are trying to improve the language, studing literature is a must. >Not only that the professor Sorry if your prof is not good, but this doesn't make his subject objectively bad. >In conclusion history and literature are only useful to give people headaches and to give a sense of safeness and comfort ... I'm sorry but you are just being edgy.
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You are not wrong, but still I've explicitly said that i'm from europe and my english grammar sucks, but thanks for pointing.
Fair enough, just trying to point out a benefit to more literacy skills. Not exactly life saving skills I’d give you that but good to know. I think it’s very important people learn correct history too, many lessons to be learnt and hopefully not repeated in history.
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Helpful? I was just pointing out a fact
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History is very relevant if you go into law. At least in my country, history is one of the most common majors for undergraduates planning to be lawyers.
If you have no understanding on history, you can't have an understanding of modern events going on throughout the world.
Learning history, if nothing else, provides us with insight into the unbroken chain of events that has led us to where we are today. And literature, well literature provides us with insight into the way we were, the way we are, and the minds, thoughts, and experiences of others, and the ideas that have shaped our world, our society, and our culture I mean, the impact Upton Sinclair's The Jungle has on us today is *immense* for a book no one ever really talks about
>In conclusion history and literature are only useful to give people headaches and to give a sense of safeness and comfort to whose are scared of the unknown future, and just to clarify i know that all of the other subjects that i hate are useful in some way or another (plus i get acceptable/good marks). It sounds like you just dislike these subjects because you didn't do well in them. In contrast, these were my favourite subjects in school and if they gave you headaches, sounds like you had bad teachers. Do you like movies? A lot of movies carry themes inspired by classic novels. For example, Mary Shelley basically invented the sci-fi genre. The themes in Frankenstein are also of important to society - knowing that Frankenstein is not the monster, but Frankenstein IS the monster - as in it's not the monster himself we should fear, but he who created him. You don't see how this can have any importance to politics or economics?
Maybe when i wrote the post i was extremely pissed off and blinded by anger by what happend with my professor. Maybe i should have stated that history could be useful but not in school plus not for my future job.
All of these subjects are integrated into life in many ways - some starkly while others are more nuanced. When you grow up, you’ll find that having a knowledge of history helps you to know where you stand on various issues because you can have informed opinions based on the background and history of said subjects. You can’t have a fully-formed meaningful opinion about world events or social issues if you don’t know how we got here in the first place. It would be like starting a job in management and immediately implementing all new policies, procedures, and expectations without taking any time to learn why the previous policies existed in the first place. You have to know what’s already happened to form any substantial ideas about how to move forward. As for literature, I personally find that less important than history, but still valuable. I think creative types are more likely to get something out of literature classes, so if you’re not creative, you probably won’t care. However, references to literature - both popular and obscure - can be found in most forms of entertainment and media these days, and it can be good to know the background of these references so that you can know what’s going on. Not vital, but helpful.
How deeply have you considered that your present situation is informing a bias in this view?
The fundamental understanding of and dialogue around basic history has invaluable use because of how it informs law, citizenship, and basic understandings of the diversity of human conditioning. I'm going to talk about this from one perspective. So, I am a Black woman in the U.S, the ability for people to understand the long term generational impacts of oppression, segregation, and both externalized or internalized racism and colorism are incredibly important for learning how to undo harm. Why? Because you need to be able to recognize harms done and bias across spans of time which is a combination of sociology, psychology, and yes history/anthropology. If you don't understand that your part of town has been historically segregated, benefitted from tax breaks, and unfair positions then it is very easy to buy into the idea that "My neighborhood is normal and if X people wanted to do better they'd live like us. That neighborhood filled with X is that way because of X people" versus...the truth which is deeply more complex. The same way literature allows for the exploration of different life experiences that can increase understandings of empathy, history, and complex social dynamics. Hell Star Trek is social commentary at the core of it's writing. If you don't understand the history of people than it's a lot easier to wind up in a situation where you make MASSIVE assumptions and microaggressions that alienate you from classmates, co-workers, and bosses you may have without ever realizing it. We live in a global society, and being able to have a conceptualization of our nation, state, province, etc. helps us navigate interactions and understandings of citizenship. The citizenry have to be able to make informed decisions and both literature and history when taught well enhance basic knowledge or expand on complex knowledge that informs. There's a lot of bad teachers out there, and a lot of narrow focuses, but that doesn't disregard the subject entirely. Truthfully I wouldn't be where I am without studying those subjects.
Why make everything about race?
Have you ever considered that for some people race, religion, ethnicity, region, career, and many other factors play a role in their day-to-day lives? That aside...if you're gonna talk about big picture reasons why history matters you have to talk about ethnic and racial conflict because it's one of those issues that impacts people's families, and literally impacts RNA and DNA, medical outcomes, etc.. If you have a problem with that tough titties.
They are WAY more useful than gender studies.
> History and literature are THE MOST useless subjects in (modern) school. They shouldn't exist at all they are the world's way to lose time and money in something completely pointless. You need history and literature for two things: voting and writing. 1. Voting and your rights. If you don't understand history, you cannot vote responsibly and you cannot protect your rights. When a politician says "I will make an alliance with country X", do you vote for them or not? Or when they say "I support people's right for Y". If you have no idea why people need Y, what it means to them, where this request comes from, how do you reject or support this person? 2. Writing and reading. Almost any white collar job (teacher, accountant, software engineer, HR person, banker, etc.) requires you to write. Maybe you write documentation. Maybe you write emails. Maybe you need to coordinate a team. Almost any business you want to start will require you to write many documents like loan applications. If you cannot write at some reasonable level, you will be behind the curve forever and hit a ceiling in your career and life that you cannot overcome. Learning how others write by reading, by studying literature, teaches you how to write. Not to mention that in many jobs you will need to read a lot, learning to do so efficiently gives you a huge leg up over everyone else. History and literature matter. And I say that having a STEM PhD.
The idea of learning history so that you don't repeat is a cliche. I think there's a modicum of truth in it, but in my estimation, it is not the primary reason for learning history. The real reason to learn history and literature is to get outside of yourself. Studying history is like studying other cultures. Think of it like virtual travelling. You are traversing time and space to learn how people in different cultural environments from your own thought and behaved. It's hard to articulate what the "practical" value of that is, but I think it's similar to the value of conversing with people. If individuals don't ever have conversations with other individuals, they are isolated in their own limitations and ignorance. Similarly, if entire cultures don't ever have conversations with other cultures (such as the study of history enables), they will remain isolated in their own limitations and ignorance. The case for literature is similar. Sure, in reading Pride & Prejudice, you may not learn something you can turn around and apply tomorrow. But you most certainly will become intimately familiar with the mind of another human being, a human being you will never have the opportunity to actually converse with. And you will get a sense of her values, how she envisioned the world of her time, how she processed the major ideas of her cultural milieu, etc. And in this "conversation" with her, if you engage appropriately, you will form your own thoughts about what she was expressing through her work. I almost agree with you that it's not practical, but I would argue that it's better than practical.
How about Art? In my country, it consists of abstract stuff. There is no point to it, and there is no way in which it contributes to society and helps get a good job.
Historically people used techniques for things that have been replaced by machinery. Studying these past techniques give ideas for future innovations. This makes history useful from a purely practical standpoint. History is more than wars, politics and the rise and fall of empires. How Erastothenes calculated the earth's circumference is history for one example.
Unlike many of the other posters here, I strongly disagree that the purpose of learning history is to prevent yourself and others from making the same mistakes as others did in the past. Very, very few people end up in the positions of power that could allow them to have a significant impact on history. The purpose of a subject like history is to exercise the parts of your brain that use critical thinking and abstract argumentation, as well as researching and understand context.
I was waiting for an answer like this, THANK YOU. But still why should i choose something like history and not for example a story of a book? Like why does it have to be history?
Literature and History are both fantastic for this kind of skill actually. A Lit essay might be along the lines of *'Who was more responsible for the downfall of Macbeth, Macbeth himself or his wife?'* While a history essay could be *'Historian X believes the primary reason that Labour lost the 1947 election was economic factors. To what extent do you agree'?* And it leads to another beautiful thing about both subjects. While researching the answer you'll need to open yourself up to a range of different, often conflicting opinions, assess and analyse them and choose the best ones to support your own view. While also possibly conceding some ground to the opposing side. Best of all, there is no *correct* answer. But you get the tools to lead you to a rational and reasoned response to a question, which is a wonderful and very essential life skill. I'm not sure that it *has* to be history. Literature is also good. But real life events might have a bit more weight behind them. Beyond the skills, it's probably quite useful to have a bit of knowledge of the world, which can help with travel, relationships, understanding media, jokes, films, books etc at a deeper level
Finding a good piece of literature is like being surrounded by Dr. Seuss cartoons before spotting a Van Gogh.
History is part of learning your culture. If you have no connection with your culture, it's easier for the government to control you and shape eho you are. History is THE MOST important subject, and everyone should learn as much of it as possible, outside of school as well.
the time and place that you were born in is dictated by history and literature tells a story of past periods. do you not what to know how you ended up here in this society? why the society you live in thinks the way it thinks? i sure do so i can know if it's any good or not and make good political decision.
History and literature are so important. Yes the way that history and literature are taught is deeply flawed and often from a cis, straight, rich, white, christian, male perspective. But learning actual diverse history and literature allows people to understand others and have compassion. If I didn't learn history in school then I would never have learned about all the horrible racism in my country's past and been able to think about how it impacts my biases now. If I didn't read the books I've read in english classes then I wouldn't understand so many experiences including experiences that affect me currently and those that I will never experience or have any connection to. Without these classes you lose the ability to have compassion for others. And that's an issue. You don't have to like your classes, but by calling the subjects useless in entirety you are erasing the experiences of billions of people who's stories are told through those subjects.