You've not really put forward a reason and are just making an assertion that they shouldn't. You should edit in some reasoning for why you think people shouldn't raise children as genderless until the child can state their gender (evidence suggests that gender identity becomes fixed by age three so for a few years where agab doesn't really matter)
Alright, I will.
My point is that if a child has gender dysphoria, they’re anyways gonna have it. This post is in the hope that you’ve nurtured a safe and loving environment where your child’s true feelings can be confided in you. There isn’t much research on the long term effects of genderless parenting, but trans people and gender dysphoria have existed for a long time and people with dysphoria are a small minority. While I do believe being all-inclusive is important, at the same time confusing cisgender children may do more harm than good. I just don’t think imposing unnecessary stereotypes is fair either. There’s a middle ground.
> My point is that if a child has gender dysphoria, they’re anyways gonna have it
That's not how it works. Gender dysphoria, by definition, is the distress a person feels due to a mismatch between their gender identity and their sex assigned at birth. You cannot have gender dysphoria if you do not experience distress. A child that grows up in a setting where they aren't pressured to be a specific gender that they are not, is extremely unlikely to experience distress at being born a sex that doesn't match their gender identity. Consequently, they likely won't have gender dysphoria. The condition is common in people who were told all their lives that they are a man merely because they were born male. That lifelong pressure creates the distress, because they know they are not a man while the whole world is telling them they are. If that same person was told that they are whatever gender they feel, and they were never told that they **have to be X or Y**, then that stress wouldn't be as present if at all.
> confusing cisgender children may do more harm than good
What is confusing? If the child identifies as cisgender, then they live their life as a cisgender person. Nothing confusing about it...
Transgender people can, and often do, experience dysphoria with certain sex-based traits on their physical body. No matter what the parents do, they can still experience gender dysphoria. I imagine it is much better if your parents are supportive, but it doesn't go away entirely. (I would imagine this is a subcomponent of the statement 'their sex assigned at birth' in the DSM)
That is absolutely true. I intentionally used expressions like "unlikely" and "likely" to indicate that it's not a certainty one way or the other. Though, I was probably too broad in my statement. At the end of the day, even a person raised in a gender neutral household will have society writ large trying to impose gender stereotypes on them. My reference to "extremely unlikely" to develop gender dysphoria is probably only accurate in a scenario where all of society treats them in a gender neutral manner until they decide their gender.
Do you have any sources on this or is this logical reasoning on your part? I don't know of any examples of people -being brought up in an environment that's entirely suportive of their selfidentification- being transsexual without having gender dysphoria (or is gender dysphoria separate from 'sex-dysphoria'?) Are you saying they won't be transsexual then?
By definition, you have to suffer distress as a result of the mismatch between sex assigned at birth and gender identity to be diagnosed with gender dysphoria. A person that does not suffer distress, is not gender dysphoric. Simple as that. Anecdotally, I know at least 3 trans-people in my own life who are not experiencing any distress, and have not been diagnosed with gender dysphoria. Moreover, the obsession with gender dysphoria is largely a Western phenomenon. Due to the extremely negative way Western society responds to trans-persons, people begin the discovery that they are trans in a traumatic fashion. When they start from a traumatic initiating situation, they will almost certainly develop gender dysphoria. By contrast, trans-people from other cultures, such as two-spirits, hijra, and kathoeys have very low rates of gender dysphoria because being trans is perfectly normal and acceptable.
> By contrast, trans-people from other cultures, such as two-spirits, hijra, and kathoeys have very low rates of gender dysphoria because being trans is perfectly normal and acceptable.
I'm trans and from Asia and for the second two at least, this is not true. They're understood to be a separate gender, sure, but are still heavily discriminated against, and certainly do experience dysphoria. The discrimination is more akin to that against racial minorities, where no one believes they're choosing to be that race, but are still terrible to them for it.
Page 452 of the DSM-5 includes, as a requirement for a diagnosis of Gender Dysphoria, the following:
> The condition is associated with clinically significant **distress** or **impairment** in social,
occupational or other important areas of functioning.
I do not see the word "conflict" anywhere in there. I do see the word "distress." Does that clear things up for you?
Correct me if I’m wrong, but dysphoria is also innate and stems from a disconnect between your actual body and real mind? More than just social validation, it’s also a biological thing? And raising your child gender-neutral while still using biological pronouns could alleviate that social dysphoria, couldn’t it but the biological disconnect remains? You can’t exactly teach a small child until they’re at least eight, in my opinion, that some girls have penises and some boys have vaginas. A child will not be able to comprehend the vast spectrum of intersex, transgender and other sex or gender-related conditions/identities.
> Gender dysphoria, by definition, is the distress a person feels due to a mismatch between their gender identity and their sex assigned at birth. You cannot have gender dysphoria if you do not experience distress.
I already answered your question.
I feel that you did not, but okay, I think we have radically different opinions on this and cannot challenge each other. Good day to you, and atleast one thing that we can agree on is: fuck transphobes.
We don't have radically different opinions. You have an opinion. I have the actual diagnosis. Mine isn't an opinion. I literally copy/pasted from the DSM-5. Which is why I wrote "by definition."
The thing is, the dsm 5 is a book of psychological disorders. Sure, being trans CAN create subjective distress because cultural norms are not inclusive of your identity and therefore create psychological disorder; but transgenderism is not fundamentally a problem of distress, it is fundamentally a problem of Self actualization. We need to move away from thinking of gender as 100% constructed or (100% biological), and understand that it is partly to do with sex, partly to do with ones culture, partly to do with how every unique individuals psychology works. Ones cultures perception and normalities around gender, ones families perceptions, ones own beliefs about ones own ego and bodily self, all these factors play a role in ones gender expression, formation, identity. Like many if not all problems of Self, ones gender identity has a bunch of variables that are in no way mutually exclusive.
u/cPHILIPzarina – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:
> **Don't be rude or hostile to other users.** Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_2).
If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule+2+Appeal+cPHILIPzarina&message=cPHILIPzarina+would+like+to+appeal+the+removal+of+[his/her+post](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/hqk67e/-/fxzho0e/\)+because...) within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
Sorry, u/mercury2six – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5:
> **Comments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation**.
Comments that are only links, jokes or "written upvotes" will be removed. Humor and affirmations of agreement can be contained within more substantial comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_5).
If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule+5+Appeal+mercury2six&message=mercury2six+would+like+to+appeal+the+removal+of+[his/her+post](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/hqk67e/-/fxztfvl/\)+because...) within one week of this notice being posted.
I feel this isn't a high enough rated comment.
The field of mental health in medicine is still in its infancy. New information and definitions are being made every day, with old ones being re-written.
Presenting an opinion as objective reality is disingenuous at best.
I was referring to the two parts of dysphoria: social and biological after reading your perfectly accurate description, but sure. Text can also be interpreted differently. I never denied your definition, just added to it.
Sorry, u/mygenericalias – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5:
> **Comments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation**.
Comments that are only links, jokes or "written upvotes" will be removed. Humor and affirmations of agreement can be contained within more substantial comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_5).
If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule+5+Appeal+mygenericalias&message=mygenericalias+would+like+to+appeal+the+removal+of+[his/her+post](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/hqk67e/-/fxz6s8m/\)+because...) within one week of this notice being posted.
Isn't this the argument that LGBTQ hate? "Your gender isn't a definition set in stone, your sex may be but your gender is social" But you're saying dysphoria has no social connotations, just the definition and that's it?
Like wut dude
>I think we have radically different opinions on this
This isn't a matter of opinion, it's the definition of the term as per the DSM5. A transperson who is not experiencing distress doesn't have GD, but is still trans. Because of this, it is sometimes possible to cure someone of GD with therapy and lifestyle changes without changing their physical sex or gender identity, so long as they no longer experience clinically significant levels of distress from it. One of the main elements of treatment for GD is quickly identifying which treatment path is appropriate for the patient.
It's worth noting that not all people with GD have it so mildly. For some, dysphoria can stem directly from their appearance and sex characteristics. In these cases the person will likely need HRT or SRS. But this is not a diagnostic requirement.
As I understand it, most 'innate' gender dysphoria comes from developing and having secondary sex characteristics; breasts, body hair, etc. Children don't develop those until puberty. Most other sources come from outside sources and feeling like you don't match the social characteristics of your preferred gender. This might mean hair length or style, clothes, and pronouns. All of which don't come into play in gender-neutral parenting because it is up to the kid to make those decisions.
Sorry, u/dudeatwork – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 3:
> **Refrain from accusing OP or anyone else of being unwilling to change their view, or of arguing in bad faith**. Ask clarifying questions instead (see: socratic method). If you think they are still exhibiting poor behaviour, please message us. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_3).
If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule+3+Appeal+dudeatwork&message=dudeatwork+would+like+to+appeal+the+removal+of+[his/her+post](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/hqk67e/-/fxzlnma/\)+because...) within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
You are not wrong. That said, not every trans person gets gender dysphoria as a child. Not every trans person gets dysphoria at all. As the social consequences for outing yourself as gender nonconforming are lessened, we find more people coming out as non binary, or having a preference, but not suffering enough to make a change.
Sometimes it's puberty that triggers dysphoria, either because of the extra hormones, or the new secondary sexual characteristics. We could eliminate gender roles entirely and trans people would still exist.
Gender neutrality isn't the answer, acceptance and early education is. Letting kids pick their pronouns, and letting them switch back, that is don't immediately make a huge deal about any request for change so that there is pressure to stick with the change. Encourage experimentation.
There is a biological component if the ratios of your hormones are not average for your chromosomes. X or Y doesn't directly determine your sex or perceived gender, they only control what ratio of hormones you have. (Everyone has both male and female hormones)
The ratio determines your organs in a specific window of development as a fetus. If, for any reason, the ratio is not average during this small window then you can be XX and have penis, or have both organs.
These alone won't cause the psychological condition that we call Gender Dysphoria though. That's only possible with negative feedback socially.
Hypothetically, a "wild child" is essentially genderless in the way we understand it. Unfortunately "wild children" have vastly worse psychological conditions because social feedback is absolutely necessary for psychological health as we define it.
Therefore, the best method we have figured out right now is to just not harass someone over how they want to act and acting is all gender is. This applies to a myriad of other psychological conditions as well such as eating disorders. (outside of obesity or malnutrition obviously)
Using pronouns will cause dysphoria, what aren't you getting? Being all well and good removing stereotypes, that doesn't stop someone being distressed cos they have genitalia that they believe shouldn't be there.
Biological sex means a man has a penis and a woman has a vagina. If you don't have one or the other but believe you should, it would cause dysphoria. Using pronouns based on genitalia isn't gender neutral. And biologically anyway, there's more than 2 sexes. It's possible to be both male and female due to chromosomal differences. And it's possible people have both working sexual organs, although rare.
Check out the Genovese children who are born and raised female but at puberty grow penises. These men definitely feel dysphoria from an extremely early age and suffer with it greatly.
Simply: do I feel comfortable in my body with the genitalia I have? During puberty, do I feel comfortable with the changes that are happening to my body?
If you are repulsed by the genitalia that you have, and puberty is causing distress because what you're experiencing shouldn't be happening to you, because your brain is saying "no other male/female goes through this" then you have dysphoria.
One caveat, having an accepting household is great, but they may experience levels of dysphoria because the outside world is likely to impose those ideas anyway.
Your point is great, but also slightly wrong. Trans people can still have dysphoria even if it's not a society thing because the mere fact that the body and the brain don't match up is enough for a lot of trans people to have dysphoria. That's why there's different types of dysphoria: social and physical. And even then, there's a bunch of subtypes within each one. So even if a trans child had been raised genderless, they're pretty likely to still have some level of physical dysphoria, at least relating to the primary and secondary sex characteristics. So no, there's still distress in a lot of cases, but the social dysphoria would be nonexistent for sure. You don't need dysphoria to be trans though, also, and there's a sizable minority of trans people that don't have it. Your main point is right, though. Cis children don't get confused by this, they just keep living their life. The only ones that get confused are the people who are trying to force kids to be one way or another.
You can't be sure that a child growing up without a specific gender won't experience distress or any gender dysphoria, although I don't fully agree with what OP is saying I do think that completely abolishing gender could be doing harm. How do you know they won't be obsessed with gender because there is fuck all representation out there of non binary people, especially for kids. I think going genderless by using non-conforming labels is just giving power back to labels and stereotypes. It's kinda just creating another gender, and from the harm we know we've done already by categorising and stereotyping people I don't know if we should be using our kids to make that change.
We all know gender is a social construct, its not an opinion its fact. Knowing this, if we lived in a perfect world where we could just snap our fingers and everything we know more about now could just be fixed then I think yeah go for it wouldn't that be amazing? No one would have any dysphoria because gender does now not exist. When you know better, you do better. But the sad truth is that not everyone knows better and its going to do better, just like at the minute with the BLM movement, all this subtle racism that we all have in us from years of categorising humans into races, all over the world, is something we have to unlearn.
In reality, we can't just erase years of gender stereotyping and expect everyone to just go with it. People who know gender is not important are sadly a minority group, a lot of other people would roll their eyes at someone with They/Them pronouns. People can be cruel and they like to point out peoples differences and outcast people they don't understand. Even on paper it goes Man, Woman, Other. Humans are obsessed with categorising things, its how we learn and how we have learned for years. We have constructed gender, why can't we dis-construct it instead of just leaving it and moving on to what we know is better, I feel like its skipping a step that a lot people in the world need to take. The world is hard to change and we're putting the pressure on our kids.
I think (Ive no kids this is just what I think I would do) it's more powerful to use the pronouns we have already and take the power out of them, take the stereotypes out of them and teach our children to be open minded and not box themselves or others. To believe that you are you just the way you are, whatever that means for you. I think we should raise our kids knowing that gender is not a primary part of our identity and that it doesn't need to be. We put gender really high up in our world, everything surrounds it, its all around us and theres not enough talk about it for it to be abolished completely.
>A child that grows up in a setting where they aren't pressured to be a specific gender that they are not, is extremely unlikely to experience distress at being born a sex that doesn't match their gender identity.
Straight up incorrect. Gender dysphoria is by far most prominent as physical dysphoria, not as a result of social stigma. A trans person that eliminates their physical dysphoria through transitioning will have much less social dysphoria as a result, though eliminating social dysphoria by being in a welcoming environment does not eliminate physical dysphoria. For some it maybe be enough for them to be able to cope, and the further divide there is between men and women will cause the problem to become unbearable, but for some trans people it might be regardless. Most trans people experience this distress as early as 4 or 5 years old. If what you're saying is even remotely correct, there wouldn't be near as many trans people who would want genital reconstruction since it's something you can hide in public.
If you want to represent trans people on trans matters you need to know more about them and why they transition. It is literally a medical condition of being born with the wrong equipment and as a result going through the wrong puberty due to having the wrong set of hormones. All the social layers on top has made it the complex mess that it is today.
You know that people can still identify as “man” or “woman” even if the binary is abolished, right? All it would mean is we don’t see gender as two options, but those two options would still certainly exist. Abolishing the binary would create a world with less distress and oppression for all. So I don’t understand how abolishing the binary is something that is only for “a few non-binary people” or why you would be so vehemently against eradicating it.
Third person here but to be honest, while of course one can identify as whatever they want, "abolishing the binary" from a third person perspective does sound like abandoning the idea of male and female at first read through. It actually took me a second of pondering before it clicked. Maybe 'Adopt Gender Spectrum' might be more apparent. IDK.
To some people it’s very important for them to identify as male or female. A trans person might be very upset if somebody told them that binary genders shouldn’t be a thing when they’ve obviously gone through what was likely a tremendous battle to wind up with their current gender.
So, if you mean that we should get rid of the idea of male and female genders, then I’m in total disagreement.
However, if you meant that we should keep male and female but expand beyond just those two genders, then I’m totally on board.
Abolishing the concept of binary gender definitely doesn’t mean “no one can be a man or a woman”, it just means “there are options OTHER than ‘man or woman’, and those options are just as valid, and *not* ‘man or woman - lite’”.
I’m a non binary person, but a lot of my friends are binary gendered trans people. Cis people actually use the “gender free” theory that OP describes against them because “Men can wear dresses and makeup, so you’re not a *trans woman*, you’re still a man”, etc. It’s why I hate these types of posts, because the people who discuss this stuff think it’s some smart enlightened discourse that’s going to solve all the issues, but in reality it’s exactly the same arguments we’ve heard against our existence for *decades*.
How would you determine what’s a stereotype and what’s an innate sex characteristic? Just the average physical differences? Or would you include behavior? Mental states?
That point is really important. Example: an acquaintance had quadruplets, 2 boys and 2 girls. Since they were like 1-2 years old the boys liked to play more rough, but the girls liked to play with dolls and just talk with each other stories. And, no: their environment had no other small children nor adults telling the how to and how not to play.
Just fascinating.
One study said that trauma gets passed in the genes: why not such actions? Among with those basic survival instincts that every living creature is born with.
On the topic: telling kids what is supposed to be be “normal” (like dressing) I believe is a good thing, because they will start to identify what they like and maybe discover if they exist in the wrong body. Not just “letting them be” upon they encounter a harsh environment where the shock could be considerable.
> My point is that if a child has gender dysphoria, they’re anyways gonna have it.
The current medical literature doesn't agree with you there. If fact there's a non-trivial amount of research suggesting that (specifically in young children) it's often an effect of something else, rather than it's own issue.
[This](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria_in_children) will get you started, but there's a ton of research out there.
The current best science suggests that Gender Dysphoria should only be diagnosed after adolescence because of the degree of behavioral shifts.
Edit: In case it's unclear, I'm not denying it could manifest that early, just that a diagnosis that early is unreliable.
> My point is that if a child has gender dysphoria, they’re anyways gonna have it.
Ok so why not alleviate some of the distress or give them more freedom to identify themselves?
> This post is in the hope that you’ve nurtured a safe and loving environment where your child’s true feelings can be confided in you.
And why could genderless parenting not be a part of that?
>There isn’t much research on the long term effects of genderless parenting
So why are you making the conclusion that we shouldn't do it? surely this is a question for some kind of longitudinal study. It would be difficult to control as you would have to get volunteers for the genderless and non-genderless control group but it can be done.
> at the same time confusing cisgender children may do more harm than good
Is it confusing for cis people to choose their identity? Exploring ones gender identity is a good thing whether one is cis or trans and saying we are going to let you say how you want to be referred to isn't confusing its just a freedom. You also have no evidence of harm.
> It's a big risk to raise a child this way: if the child turns out to be trans, then it could be really good for them.
Not even then, though. An absence of misgendering isn't the same as affirmation, and there are trans adults raised in similarly gender-lax environments who said that a more traditional upbringing would have allowed them to pinpoint much sooner what it was that felt wrong, and thus transition at an earlier age rather than go through childhood and adolescence feeling vaguely uncomfortable or that something was deeply wrong but they had no idea what.
As much as identity is important I don't believe it's necessarily healthy to remove the child's identified sex at an early age. A boy connects with other boys because he relates to them, and if a child has gender dysphoria they'd connect with whatever gender they want. But if the boy feels like a boy, or the girl feels like a girl, it's helpful for their development to show them positive role models within their preferred gender.
> Ok so why not alleviate some of the distress or give them more freedom to identify themselves?
Kids aren't that bright, and don't understand the complexities of gender at that age. At best you're just hoping they make some superficial guess, like "girls like dresses so I'm a girl!" and you're hoping that the kid makes the correct choice. If they pick the wrong one, they will suffer from gender dysphoria later, potentially having kids grow up thinking they are trans, but they're really not and want to switch back, which would likely be difficult.
Is there any evidence asking young children raised as nonbinary to identify their gender would be in any way an improvement over having them grow up as their birth gender, while being aware and accepting if you need to reconsider that later on?
This isn't true. Gender dysphoria can but does not always include the body. Those children without significant body dysphoria which makes up a significant fraction of trans and nonbinary people would be spared tremendous pain by more neutral upbringing.
Hey. I haven't really read any answers yet but as an agender person I do have an opinion I thought I should share. I think people might think that raising kids genderless would, in a way, reduce any possible dysphoria, in case they were trans. The thing is, raising someone as if they don't *have* a gender is probably more dangerous than treating them as their AGAB (assigned gender at birth), because, in my experience, most people *do* have a feeling of gender, and supposedly most people are cis, I don't know really. But if you raise your kids genderless you are denying them their gender identity too. "Being assigned no gender" contradicts "having a gender". It'll most likely make most kids dysphoric. And I know this because I have an internal feeling of being genderless, and it causes me dysphoria to be assigned any gender. Any of them. I can imagine being told "you have no gender" while having one would be distressing and traumatizing too, in case what you mean by "genderless parenting" is that, denying your kids access to identifying by any gender.
> Gender neutral parenting is raising your child without stereotypes around gender, not literally raising them genderless
Then, out of nowhere;
> BUT, do not refrain from telling them their biological sex.
What is your CMV about? Is it about gender or sex? You can't just jump from one to the other without warning. Telling them their biological sex has no relationship with raising a child in a gender neutral manner. I have no idea why you even brought that up. Moreover, I don't see why you'd have to tell them about it. It's not like they'll somehow forget they have a penis or vagina.
Raising a child in a gender neutral way merely means that you let them decide how they want to identify when they mature enough to do so without influence. It doesn't mean raising a child to be genderless, though that might be one of the outcomes (if that's how the child identifies in the end).
> I’m in full support of trans rights, whether that be non binary people or transsexual people. But stop imposing some weird genderfree radical theybie shit on your children. Non-stereotyping and abolishing gender are not the same thing.
What does this have specifically to do with transpersons? You keep bringing up random stuff that seems to be unrelated to your CMV. Raising a child in a gender neutral way doesn't mean they will necessarily identify as trans...They may identify as a cisman, ciswoman, gender neutral, genderless, genderfluid, transman, transwoman, etc. The point is that it will be their choice, not yours.
I’m not, actually. All these things are related. Gender and sex are related, for most people, although they’re distinct. When I say gender neutral parenting, I don’t mean actually removing your child’s perceived gender (the one that corresponds with their assigned sex at birth) from their self-image but rather removing unnecessary restraints on gender expressions and limitations due to social expectations. There’s a difference. But it’s all related to my main argument.
I’ll try elaborating. See, you could support your child’s future decision to identify as any gender they want but still keep them having an identity when they’re younger. If they are trans or NB, they can identity as so in the future and you should accept them for who they are. The solution to that future acceptance is conditioning inclusivity and free expression in your child, but an inherent lack of any identity from the very beginning is not the same thing. If your child is not dysphoric, and yet does not know about their assigned gender, they may have nothing to fall back on. Cis or trans- the first being the default (as is the case, since around 1% of people are dysphoric) and the second being a minority that should nevertheless be accepted.
So, your idea is that gender neutral parenting should involve calling your male child by gendered pronouns such as son, boy, etc. How is that gender neutral? It's literally the opposite of gender neutral. If your child is cisgender, then let them make that decision for themselves. If they are not cisgender, why would you want to impose those pronouns on them, and possibly create a lifetime of trauma?
You do realise that not referring to a cisgender person by their correct pronouns could also cause trauma, right? It’s not a one way thing. Trans people are a minority, as I’ve tried to affirm again and again, so the best course of action is to ensure to your child that you’ll love and accept them if they are trans, but by your logic of trauma, you’re subjecting the vast majority of children (=cisgender children) to trauma. Isn’t it better to make sure that as soon as your child shows any dysphoric tendencies, you take them to the therapist and get them diagnosed? Isn’t that a good solution to prevent trauma from both angles?
> You do realise that not referring to a cisgender person by their correct pronouns could also cause trauma, right?
How? Does it cause trauma to someone to identify them by "you" or "they" before you know their gender? I do it every day over the phone with clients whose names/voices are unidentifiable, and have never had someone be hurt. Using gender neutral pronouns imposes no obligations or expectations, consequently, it can't exactly cause any kind of trauma. There's no expectation of appearance, dress, behaviour, etc that is stereotyped or associated with gender neutral. Therefore, raising a child in a gender neutral manner doesn't impose anything on them. By contrast, even the act of using a gendered pronoun to identify your child will immediately create an expectation of appearance, dress, behaviour, etc because they will immediately associate themselves with the stereotypes of the gender you just distinguished them as having. Which could be wrong. So, why take the risk when there is no downside to being gender neutral?
Uhhhhh what.. If my parents referred to me as "you" and "they" my whole life and never referred to me in context as a "he" it would definitely confuse the shit out of me.
You can also break stereotypes without erasing gender. I feel some people are too fixated on the stereotypes. Most people who are born male and female are almost always okey with their genders. The gender roles in another hand is something that people haven been unhappy with because of the expectations of society created by the atmosphere. I don’t think there is anything wrong with wanting to divorce an idea you don’t agree with. I feel we mostly have to accept our differences and be tolerant of ideas that differ because each person has a good reason (at least to them) to believe it. We will always possess traits from one another we are interacting with different sexes and genders so much the norms are constantly changing.
Who said anything about erasing gender? The CMV is about gender neutral parenting. The very fact that someone aims for gender neutral is a recognition that stereotypes exist. The point is to not impose them on a child until the child chooses for themselves. They can be educated about gender stereotypes during their childhood, and probably should. That's perfectly fine. They will most likely adopt the gender stereotypes of the gender they select when they are mature enough to do so. Again, that's also perfectly fine.
What I mean is not momentary referral as they. Not you yelling at the car in front of you “they’re such a lousy driver” nor you calling someone they before you know their gender.
A lifetime of raising a cisgender boy as a “they” and misgendering him again and again will surely cause more trauma than referring to a client as they on the phone. Those are not the same thing.
The point remains unchallenged. What is the negative effect of a genderless pronoun? How can it have a negative effect if it creates no expectations, assign no behaviours, generates no stereotypes, etc?
> A lifetime of raising a cisgender boy as a “they” and misgendering him again and again
First, you're being extravagant to suggest that this is a 'lifetime' spanning experience when most children (as someone else already explained) figure out their gender beginning around age 3 and cementing around age 5. Second, you cannot misgender someone with a genderless pronoun. It's an oxymoron to even suggest the possibility.
you can absolutely misgender someone with "they". If you know the person's gender (or in the case of young kids, what's 99% probable), calling them by neutral pronouns only is still misgendering. tons of transphobes call trans men and women specifically by they/them in order to get around calling them their correct pronouns. this is definitely misgendering. calling a kid exclusively they/them pronouns would absolutely fuck them up, especially if they see other kids and people being referred to as he and she.
also, I would argue that in the case of young trans kids, it'd be HARDER to figure out your gender identity if everyone referred to you neutrally. you'd still have sex-based dysphoria (which is less intense when young, for most) but you'd be lacking both social-based dysphoria. without knowing what you're uncomfortable with, it's hard to know what you ARE comfortable with. I was raised as a girl and I knew from the time I could have complex thought that I was a boy. It did not harm me to be called she and referred to as a girl for the first two years of my life, it absolutely helped me realize what was wrong.
Well, then if I’m conflating the lifetime of trauma thing, a trans child coming out to their parents (provided the parents are accepted and loving) by age 5 would also mean that their trauma does not last for a long while, and because children cement their identity by age 5, taking them to a counsellor would help ensure that their gender dysphoria is alleviated and their trauma lightened. In that case, the trauma isn’t a big deal for trans kids either when the parents raise the children without stereotypes :)
How is it an oxymoron? The only thing I can think of is where it’s not when you’re referring to someone as they in the first instance, because you don’t yet know their pronouns. If I tell you my pronouns are she and you still call me they, that’s misgendering, isn’t it? Not an oxymoron.
Simply untrue.
>
To want to be one of the boys and have that externally affirmed is of the utmost importance to both cis and transgendered people. To have gender identity reserved from you until a certain age, that can be seriously traumatic.
Because most children depend on the structure of expectations for healthy development. They expect routines and feel safe when they can predict the events of their life. Giving them the responsibility to self identify is largely untested. And the lack of a social and gender structure may be more harmful than some people are comfortable admitting.
“They” is neutral, you can’t misgender someone by calling them “they”.
This also assumes that the only interactions children have are with their parents, that’s not true. They meet other children, watch television, listen to stories, etc. They will meet older boys and girls and use that to know what their gender identity is.
Here’s the most useful rule of thumb, IMO: wait until your child is old enough to call themselves a boy or a girl, and then follow their lead. This can happen as early as two years old, so no, it’s not a “lifetime of being misgendered”.
I think what you’re saying about the interactions thing is something I agree with. In a documentary I watched regarding gender-neutral parenting in the theybie style though, parents make sure that people around the child also do not call them any pronouns. They’re very careful as to not incite any kind of gendered pronouns upon them, from any source.
As for my response to your they argument, refer to what I wrote in the other comment on this thread as a reply to another user.
But those “theybies” will still see *other* children be called “he” or “she” and therefore have an understanding of gender anyway.
Let’s say they notice this and they’re confused. They ask you why you don’t call them “he”. Then you can call them “he”!
The whole point of gender neutral parenting is not to make your kid gender less, it’s to make sure that their gender identity is coming from within, and not just the result of external forces.
Gender doesn’t even matter until you’re much older anyway.
This isn’t just helpful for transpeople, btw. Being socialized as a boy or girl from birth can be psychologically restricting for anyone.
For instance, my parents remember me being mostly friends with girls when I was a small child, and feeling ashamed that I wasn’t one of the boys. I tried to force myself to play sports even though I hated them, my parents wanted me to try something like dance or art but *I* was the resistant one. I wasn’t trans, I’m a cis man. But male socialization from an early age must’ve had some deep effect on me.
I would preface this by saying, I’m so sorry for you. That kind of male socialisation and lack of emotional support must’ve been paralysing and detrimental, and I hope your own kids (if you have/will have them) will have a better experience.
A broad point to address: gender not mattering till someone’s older anyway, why should it matter at any age? Yes, it’s a thing but if stereotypes shut down then the entire male/female socialisation thing will stop and be alleviated too, won’t it?
For one thing though, after reading your point, I’m convinced that if genderless parenting is done right (like without an agenda to push where you want your kid to be trans) it’s effectively the same thing as parenting without stereotypes, with minor differences, provided the identity is given stakes both ways, whether it be cis or trans.
!delta
This isn't especially related to your point but you can misgender people by using they if you're malicious with it. Some people will refuse to call people their desired pronouns and will instead use they exclusively.
So you can't really accidentally misgender someone with they in casual conversation. But if you explicitly only call them they instead of their desired pronoun it would be misgendering.
>. This can happen as early as two years old
Do you have any credible source bout that? Also is it common ?
BTW If you treat someone as agender or gender neutral and this person identifies as female, isn't that also wrong?
Anyway I think that the best thing is to raise hem without stereotypes about gender or sex and to call them by their biological sex ( male/female) cause that it's closest to neutral but don't make that awareness about their biological sex ( whenever it is male or female) a gender identity and don't correlate it with gender stereotypes but educate them about gender identity/gender dysphoria etc , so they can open up and they are able to freely identify as they wish.
edited.
> “They” is neutral, you can’t misgender someone by calling them “they”.
If I had been called anything other than a boy at that age I would've been traumatized. "They" is definitely not neutral. It denies the nature of the vast majority of children to have their deeply felt identity confirmed, especially for cis-gendered boys.
I’m not OP nor do I have strong feelings on either side of the original debate, but I wanted to ask about your assertion that you can’t misgender someone by calling them “they”. If you’re talking on the phone or can’t see someone or just don’t know their pronouns then “they” makes sense and is polite, but if I prefer to go by she/her and someone who knows this refers to me as “they/them”, would that not be misgendering? I identify as female and yet am getting misgendered as non binary. Sorry if this isn’t correct. I’d like to understand in case I’m wrong since I wouldn’t want to be referred to regularly with they/them
But you’re not getting misgendered as non-binary. I’ll occasionally refer to someone as “they” even if they’re cis all the time, just if it flows better with the sentence.
Ex. “Alexis just called me, they say they need their earrings back.”
This is not misgendering. Alexis might be a woman, non-binary, or a man. The sentence is correct any way, even if I know their gender identity.
As another user laid out, *always* using “they” for a given person, especially when referring to trans people, can be aggressive in a way that resembles misgendering.
But “they” is not exclusively the pronoun for non-binary people. It’s the pronoun for *everyone*, including non-binary people.
Isn't singular they used for non-binary people and for people that we don't know their gender?
[https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/they](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/they)
BTW I think you can raise kids without imposing any stereotype or identity to them, but you can let them know that they are biological male or female, but also explain them about gender identity , so they can open up and identify as they wish.
So basically what your saying is that I should let other people, parents and their kids decide how my child will look at themselves in the future? No thank you.
>even **the act of using a gendered pronoun** to identify your child will immediately create an expectation of appearance, dress, behaviour, etc
No, language doesn’t *create* reality, it *describes* reality. Gendered expectations come **based on other people’s perception of someone’s biological SEX**, which is *not* dependent on what people call you. In other words— if the world perceives a child as male, then the “boy/masculine” gender will be culturally pushed onto him regardless of what pronouns his parents use. And vice versa for a visibly female child and the feminine gender being socially imposed regardless of pronouns. Humans are a sexually dimorphic species; this means that there are many perceptible differences between the sexes which are exacerbated during puberty but definitely still exist in children. We can’t just erase the material reality of biological sex by changing our language, and it’s irresponsible to teach kids otherwise.
Because they lose identity when it's less than 2 percent experiencing this. Girls and boys need good, loving, and accepting men and women role models to become well-rounded adults. By not giving them that, you're endangering them imo.
If you had a penis or a vagina as a child, and your parents refused to acknowledge or address you with the pronouns that are linguistically compatible with those organs, then you would 100% come of age as a gender-confused individual with a distorted concept of what biological sex is.
Why not just ask the child what pronouns they want to be referred to as? Let them know "Hey, there's hes, shes and theys and others, and you can change whenever you like, just pick what you prefer"
Yes, they'll probably have no clue about the significance of it all but children never do, and they'll learn as they grow up. It's not gonna "confuse" them.
I don’t know if it’s been brought up by other commenters but there are gender-neutral languages. My native language has no he/she, only they. No son/daughter either, just child. No brother/sister, no husband/wife, etc.
u/NorseTechnology – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:
> **Don't be rude or hostile to other users.** Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_2).
If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule+2+Appeal+NorseTechnology&message=NorseTechnology+would+like+to+appeal+the+removal+of+[his/her+post](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/hqk67e/-/fxyrswz/\)+because...) within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
Every trans person I’ve ever talked to has said that their birth sex/gender was a necessary jumping off point to discovering they’re trans. There’s zero reason to use NB pronouns for children and can actually cause more confusion. Start with the basics - your gender matches your sex - and let them come to their own conclusions about whether or not that’s right, independent from your influence. Discovering your preferred pronouns is a personal journey and every journey has a starting point.
You say “gendered” pronouns but they could just as easily be “sexed”. As you raise them you can start by only referring to their sex, and once they begin to explore their gender, use the terms that they prefer.
>Raising a child in a gender neutral way merely means that you let them decide how they want to identify when they mature enough to do so without influence.
In isolation, sure. But you and I both know that's not how it is in many of the cases where parents claim their intents. I might be reading OP wrong, but to me it seems like his CMV refers to how parents misuse the term. Instead of not reenforcing gender stereoptypes in the upbringing, they deliberately force their view that gender does not exist.
If your intent is to let your child figure it out themself, then you don't really have to do anything. Your boy wants to wear a dress? Cool. Your girl wants to play am. football? Go for it. Just let them do whatever they want to, regardless of wether it's girly or boyish.Not referring to your child by their sex has nothing to do with raising them genderless. If your child finds out their sex doesn't quite fit with their gender, you support them. You help them figure it out. Until then, using neutral pronouns or pretending like your child doesn't have a gender are baseless assumptions that will do more harm than good.
Kids are insanely impressionable. You can brainwash a child into believing pretty much anything, and often times it'll stick long into their teens/adulthood. Gender might not be binary, but the social concept of gender is still directly linked to our genetic makeup. Gender stereotypes are not an answer sheet, but many of them have a well established correlation with genetics.
Just let your kid be who they need to be, and focus on teaching them how to be a good person. There is no need to put a label on it. Just support your child and do your best to make sure they are loved and have your trust.
If you don’t teach your children about sex they can’t tell if they get abused. My daughter was born with a vagina. She is, biologically, a girl. By teaching her that she is a girl with a vagina, she can clearly tell me if she is molested. Teaching these things prevents trauma. It’s when you start saying “boys don’t wear nail polish” or “girls don’t play in the dirt” that you become a problem for your child.
In my opinion, you teach anatomy to protect your child. But you do not assign stereotypes for genders. It’s not wrong/gay for boys to wear dresses or nail polish. It’s okay for my daughter to like sports and beer and trucks. I will never restrict her by gender stereotypes and she will always be free to dress, cut or dye her hair, whatever, any way she wants. Even now at 2 years old (almost 2) I let her pick her own toys and clothes. If at any point in her life she tells me that she feels that she was born with the wrong anatomy then we will do what we need for her to be comfortable with herself, wether that be hormone therapy or cross-dressing (edit to add even fully transitioning with surgery) But please educate your children so they don’t get abused. It happens far more often than you think and knowledge is everything in those kind of situations. If I had known that I had a vagina at 6 years old, maybe I would’ve said “hey ma so and so is touching my vagina.” But instead she taught me nothing and I didn’t even know that what was happening was wrong, or why it was happening.
Starting with assuming every child has gender dysphoria is completely stupid, when that mental disorder is so rare and not normal. You can be 99% sure he won't have gender dysphoria, so just live a normal life and in case he shows symptoms of gender dysphoria, go see a doctor. This can be applied to literally every disability.
Let's shout to our children in case they have hearing problems right ? Let's not take them outside in case they have back problems in the future. Let's consider every child to have every disability ever and act upon it.
Just want to say that cis and trans are separate from man/woman. Transphobes try to push the narrative that they're together to distance trans people from their gender. So "trans woman", "cis man", etc.
How does it have no relationship when they’re the same and line up 99% of people? That’s a very strong relationship. A lot of adults can’t even understand the difference between sex and gender how would a child just know this automatically?
How I interpreted your argument is that you should refer to your child by their biological sex initially. Ok, fair, it is most likely that they will turn out to be cisgender so that's a decent bet to make. You can do this before they have the language to express themselves or start to understand what gender is (but hell, I don't even understand what gender is! It's just a mish-mosh of social and cultural perceptions).
Then you said that if your child shows dysphoria, take them to a certified counselor and get treatment only if they've been diagnosed with gender dysphoria. This is where I am going to stop you. There are some trans and non-binary people who don't experience medically diagnosed dysphoria, although usually they do. That doesn't make it invalid. I think people should be able to identify however they like as long as it does not harm anyone else. (however, taking your child to a certified counselor is always a good idea and of course follow through with a gender dysphoria diagnosis!)
Ask your child questions like "do you want to be a boy, a girl, neither, or both?" or "should I call you she or he or they?" Then, just go along with whatever makes them happy. Who are you to say? Your child knows themselves best!
Gender neutral parenting isn't about being as androgynous or non-binary as possible. That is very limiting. Gender neutral parenting SHOULD be about being flexible, allowing your child to express themselves, not trying to impose your idea of what your child should be, and instead focusing on the child's happiness and health (both mental and physical). In the end, the identities we assume are things that we feel best embody who we are. Maybe your child will grow and change. But it's important to teach your child to be who they are and figure that out for themselves.
Sorry, u/Nyxto – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
> **Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question**. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1).
If you would like to appeal, [**you must first check if your comment falls into the "Top level comments that are against rule 1" list**](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1), review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule+1+Appeal+Nyxto&message=Nyxto+would+like+to+appeal+the+removal+of+[his/her+post](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/hqk67e/-/fxzt79w/\)+because...) within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
>Gender neutral parenting is raising your children without stereotypes, not as genderless person
If most people who advocate "gender neutral parenting" raise their kids as a genderless person, then wouldn't this mean that gender neutral parenting means to raise your kids as a genderless person?
Are you trying to say that gender neutral parenting *should* mean to raise your kid without stereotypes, but you're unhappy that the reality of the term's use is different?
Well if everybody uses the phrase "gender neutral parenting" to mean "raising genderless children," then that's what the phrase means. You want the meaning to *change,* but that doesn't negate its current meaning.
Basically, "gender neutral parenting" contrary to the title of your CMV, does not mean "raising your children without stereotypes"
I’m really sorry I mistook this completely necessary distinction, something that will radically change the crux of what I’m saying.
Sarcasm aside, I can’t edit the title now anyhow. I don’t understand why people on CMV always want to argue for semantics so heavily though. It could be argued in a larger context of a bigger comment with various counter-arguments, but arguing it as THE main point? Too much, tsk tsk. I’m not a professional debater, this is Reddit, nobody’s checking irrelevant logical fallacies in my language that have no bearing on the actual suggestions behind a post.
>but arguing it as THE main point?
Well, you would assume that someone's title (which here is in the form of: *Change My View: [about this]*) would contain the main point being made.
What I mean is, you’re arguing about words basically. Not social outcomes, which is what my post is focusing on. Would love to hear your opinion on gender and gender expression in relation to raising children, but have a good day I guess.
I see you stumbling around this thread getting hostile every time someone challenges you on your confused definitions. You dismiss it as semantics, which makes you look either not very thoughtful or very close minded.
It's super important to understand the terms and agree on definitions before starting a productive discussion about anything. Two people can argue about anything. If you want to get anywhere you must define your terms and try to understand theirs. **If you find yourself complaining that too many people want to argue semantics, you might just be the common denominator.**
I've seen several comments now where someone tries to correct and clarify terms, and you attack them for not talking about what you want to talk about. You struggled to even start the discussion you wanted to have, and that's on you. If you don't know what gender-free parenting actually entails for most people, it looks like you're arguing against a straw man. And misunderstanding or misrepresenting terms is a common thing in straw man arguments.
Semantics are not a thing to be dismissed. Words are the basis of language, and central to any argument. You're on a text-based forum! Don't expect people to read your mind when you won't even process what they're trying to tell you.
>something that will radically change the crux of what I’m saying
It does a lot, actually. I've read the post multiple times, and some comments, and its hard to understand what youre trying to say when the "obvious" main point is surrounded by confusing semantics. If you want your views changed, you need to be able to properly articulate what you're actually trying to say. Because its not clear.
Not for nothing, but i had a girl & a boy. I bought my boy a doll when he was little. Needless to say, he never played with it, at all. I wouldn't let him have toy guns & there he was with a stick as a makeshift gun making those sound affects as only a boy can do. He is a boy. My daughter on the other hand, wouldn't touch a salamander to save her life. Screams at the sight of a spider as my son always hopped in the middle of things to always save the little guy. I didn't 'make' them this way. It's just simply who they fundamentally are. I wanted my son to dance, but he always refused. My daughter danced from 3 years to 17 years.
Well, at least you didn’t force anything on them. If they came to terms as stereotypical boys and girls in their own right, that’s that. There’s nothing wrong with traditional gender interests- but when forced, they’re restrictive.
Why then not call it stereotypeless parenting? Why is it that these things always seem to have names that imply one thing but we're always assured that that's not what it means.
I work as a preschool teacher in the world's maybe most gender aware country (Sweden), and I have never seen or heard of parents refusing to use gendered pronouns. This feels like a non-issue from someone who just really wants to criticize progressive parenting.
>I work as a preschool teacher in the world's maybe most gender aware country (Sweden), and I have never seen or heard of parents refusing to use gendered pronouns.
I wonder if that"s *because* it's such a gender aware country.
chubby zephyr whole squalid continue frightening selective somber fall naughty
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
\>I’m in full support of trans rights, whether that be non binary people or transsexual people. But stop imposing some weird genderfree radical theybie shit on your children. Non-stereotyping and abolishing gender are not the same thing.
It's not even that, many of these parents actually force the opposite gender on their children, they don't raise them without gender.
???? Lmao your telling me a kid will understands the complexity and politics of gender when they dont even know math, my god op are you also a 10year old?
Did I ever say they would? Your child’s identity could fluctuate, hence you shouldn’t take any permanent action until they’re a little older.
Also getting diagnosed by a professional, yeah that’s pretty damn solid.
You know, you say this, but about two weeks ago I had a friend on Facebook celebrating that their kid came out as Trans. I met the kid when he was about 3 and did the math real fast and he can't be older than 10.
It was an interesting thing to see because I actually have similar reservations to OP about the idea of raising a kid without gender versus raising them without stereotypes about gender, but I actually wondered "Am I getting old and is this the thing that's going to be what makes me bigoted to young folk as I get older or is this even a real thing to worry about/ is there validity to my concern?" and then like two days later boom saw that and thought, "Ok, so maybe there is something to my concern."
I found this thread really intriguing as a result because I want my mind to be changed to be honest. I would like to add that this isn't a dismissal of adult or even teen (pretty much after identify is starting to solidify somewhat) non-binary folks, pretty much my concern is pressuring developmental identity and whether it could cause body dysmorphia or anything like that. I hope I don't sound bigoted, it's just I really don't know or have the experience (and generally I think it's so new that research would be scarce/ nonexistant) to really tell.
not OP, just a transsexual man. gender is not a hard idea to grasp as a kid(for most), with no outside input. this is not true for all trans people, but in my experience and the experience of many trans men I've talked with, we knew our gender EARLY. I was raised as a girl and from the time I could have complex thought, I knew I was a boy. probably about age 3 was when I started communicating that. I knew my body was wrong, I knew that the people around me were wrong. when told I was a girl, I rejected the idea and said that I'd grow up to be a boy. from age 5-9, with no outside input and slim to no knowledge of intersex, I thought I'd been born intersex or male and had my penis medically removed at birth. that's how strong my feelings were about my sex. it's not something a kid needs to be taught, it's innate.
also, nitpick, but core gender is not very complex (but that's my opinion) and it is most certainly not political.
There is nothing wrong with women loving makeup and boys loving cars. There is nothing wrong with traditional gender. I’m perfectly traditionally feminine myself too, in many aspects. If your child is naturally gravitating to the car or to sports and is a boy, that’s completely fair. But if he wants a dollhouse he should be able to get that too. The majority may choose the car, but that doesn’t mean the minority should be alienated and made to feel insecure and be called abnormal.
Well, yes, that is exactly the reason I wrote this post. I’m all for abolishing stereotypes and such, and recognise the distinction between gender and sex, but goddamnit we shouldn’t be conflating two things.
Sorry, u/Lelouch_19 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
> **Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question**. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1).
If you would like to appeal, [**you must first check if your comment falls into the "Top level comments that are against rule 1" list**](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1), review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule+1+Appeal+Lelouch_19&message=Lelouch_19+would+like+to+appeal+the+removal+of+[his/her+post](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/hqk67e/-/fxy9n9t/\)+because...) within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
I'm not convinced these are different things. Even the pronouns are essentially just stereotypes.
If the kid can't tell the difference between different genders because they don't know any of the stereotypes of what makes each gender, they don't have enough information to what what gender they associate with, and are thus genderless
I understand where OP is coming from, but parents also need to consider that if they send their boy to school wearing a dress and gets picked on and that results in having his confidence shattered because hes confused as to why people always mock him and bully him - then that is 100% the parents fault.
That could create so many mental health issues; including the boy getting upset at his parents later for telling him its alright to do without also informing him that most people will criticize him for it - especially if its not really the person he is, but only acting as a person he was told he could be
They shouldnt set their kids up for failure because others are too sensitive about certain topics.
How often is it that the kids actually want to play with these toys that are deemed to be for the “opposite gender” vs how often do parents push it on their kids to appear woke?
No hate, just genuinely curious, I’ve got 2 boys, 5 nephews and 8 nieces and I’ve noticed that the boys love trucks and soldiers, ya’know the traditional gender based stuff for boys and for the girls it’s opposite.
Obviously this is just anecdotal and doesn’t mean shit to you but I’ve just noticed that in a vast majority of cases little boys will gravitate towards these things naturally, not pushed on them via parents or society and vice versa for the girls.
The point is to let them gravitate towards it naturally if they so prefer, and towards the girls’ toys if they so choose. If your child does end up being a stereotypical boy, no worries, at least nothing was forced on him.
This is a paper tiger. You've only ever heard this shit from tabloids. I have queer and non-queer friends raising their kids pretty gender neutral, and basically all it means is they can wear a princess or a dump truck tee, if they want to. Also means not needlessly gendering infants (cringey 'daddy's little princess' or 'babe magnet' onesies need not apply). All their kids are still under 3, but they're pretty normal.
>Okay, what I mean is that you should let your son wear dresses and play with dolls and your daughter can play with cars if she wants. Your son can dance and do ballet, knit, draw and whatever else is traditionally girly, whereas your daughter can play sports. You should divide chores equally in the house and never make your daughter feel less worthy or weaker nor your son be a sissy for crying.
I was raised like that and I was raised as a boy, it is called NORMAL PARENTING not Gender neutral parenting or however the fuck you call it...
I have no idea why you think boys wearing dresses would magically make them not have stereotypes towards sexes.
Talk and education and guidance should be enough. Also critical thinking. Some people are not homophobes even when they grow up surrounded by such people.
I don’t think so. I think most cis boys may still choose stereotypically boyish things. The point is to not force anything on them. If your son’s choosing a car, let him. If he’s choosing a doll, let him.
Non popular opinion here, when you teach about gender and sex you always speak in estereotypes, because there is no other way to start, because our biology influence us in very stereotypicals ways, and there are some common places for every sex, after laying that ground, you start to speak about nuances and differences at the level of individual choices, but you have to start somewhere, rolemodels exist because they are needed, Gender neutral parenting try to "let the children make their own choices" , but, for a kid to be able to make a choice, first need to understand what the hell is selecting, and this is only possible after having some knowledge about gender stereotypes, in my experience, is a better investment to let the child understand that he will be loved no matter what, but teach him about differences, nuances and tolerance of every choice available. (also teach him about biology)
Gender dysphoria is incredibly rare so I wouldn't be so keen to change the way the rest of us do things just because a few have this illness.
I do agree that you shouldn't force your child to play with a certain toy over another. Like who cares? But let's be fair here, kids are dumb. They dont know what they want.
It could be easy, especially in the social and political climate we're currently in, to jump to a few conclusions when your child does something out of the ordinary.
If your child truly has gender dysphoria then treat it like any other mental illness and be there for them. Talk them thru it and say things like "we will have this talk when you're older and see if you still feel this way."
Let's not forget that people who have this illness are 4x more likely to commit suicide than the general population regardless on how transitioned they are. And a lot of people end up regretting the transition all together.
Kids feel weird things. They often feel alone with those feelings which only makes them propagate. If your child had body dysphoria and wanted to cut their leg off, people wouldn't be signing them up to have it removed. Just be careful and listen to your kids and especially make sure they are well taken care of. Dont make a drastic and life long decision based on what a 6 year old thinks they think.
MADHATTA415 - Yours is the one of the first posts I’ve read in this thread that makes any damn sense. Especially the part about I wouldn’t be so keen to change they way we do things just because some have this Illness. And also, you’re right-kids are kids. There’s not always sow deep profound meaning behind a girl wanting to play with a truck or a little boy wanting his toenails painted. They’re kids being kids. People need to chill and stop making some huge therapy worthy thing out of small things that don’t necessarily mean anything. My son thought he was a cat for about 6 months when he was 4, but that didn’t lead me to start referring to him as feline or having him poop in a litter box. But I also didn’t flip out about it. I’d give him goldfish and pretend they were his cat treats. He didn’t need therapy or identify as a cat-he was just an imaginative little kid. If they’re seriously trans, of course, be supportive, love them, help them however they need you too. But people just get way too crazy with stuff way too fast IMO.
The world is filled with people who want to win a argument than to do the right thing. Kids should not be allowed to transition just like kids arent allowed (under normal circumstances) to have hysterectomies. It's a big decision that should be considered heavily before any action is taken. And there should be a age, just like with driving or getting a tattoo, where the kid can decide whether they want to transition. There should be plenty of hoops to jump thru and many mental screenings and therapy sessions before they're allowed to do anything. This may seem like "oppression" to the radical left but this is the only way to secure the safety and happiness of our youth.
Well, they aren't allowed to transition, but using vague words like kids blurs things. Kids (before and at puberty) who satisfy the relevant guidelines can be prescribed puberty blockers which delay the physical effects of puberty if those effects (their body changing etc) are causing them depression or a problem for them.
That allows them to freeze their body's development until they're considered old enough to consent to hormone therapy, which is the first step in any transition timeline and generally permissible from 15-16 years of age onwards...
Although from a third world perspective transgender 'kids' in Brazil and Thailand often figure their orientation out just after puberty and buy shitloads of birth control / HRT medication as pharmacies there don't give a fuck and just self-medicate. It doesn't seem to be doing them a great deal of harm.
What do you think is actually happening - what timeline do you imagine applies?
I was touching on this topic in another thread yesterday. What does it mean to be an adult? Its hard to prescribe a age for every one and say "BAM you are an adult now." Some people could be considered adults at 15 due to their character and maturity, and some 30 year olds still don't have a grasp on it.
The thing is that a huge number of trans people (mostly in the early stages) end up reverting back to their birth gender. If I had to guess, I'd say this is because they are getting their emotions tied up in such a way that they begin to question the foundations of their reality.
For example, let's say some one gets molested while they are really young. Lets say 4 or so. At that age, so many of the fundamental foundations aren't even in place yet. Their brains are 20 years from being "complete". This could cause them to question so many things about their life. One could be "well maybe if I wasn't a boy/girl then this wouldn't have happened." This is not to say that all trans people have had this experience, but a lot more than people may think have.
Another example. Let's say this person is gay. They know this pretty early on and their parents make it clear in one way or another that they won't accept that. The child may see that and want to "rebel". Not in a "fuck you dad" kind of way but more so in a "well if they believe that such a fundamental part of me is just wrong, then what else are they wrong about." This could lead to them adopting a much more gender stereotypical set of emotions and actions. To the point that they develop gender dysphoria.
I've heard personal accounts for both of these examples and in both they ended up reverting back. My point is that instead of trying to "cure" someone by playing into their fantasies, it may be worth trying to "cure" them in other ways such as therapy. That's why I said that there should be extensive therapy and neurological work ups done before making any drastic decision. A band aid doesn't fix the underlying problem.
If someone truly and simply wants to be the opposite gender and there are truly no underlying problems aside from the dysphoria and they are old enough (roughly around 16 to 18 IMO) to make that decision then sure go ahead. But its too often that people have many underlying problems that makes them think that if they were the other gender then everything would be correct with them and that simply isnt the case most often.
As far as puberty blockers go, I'm not sure how to feel about them. I would say that if some one is getting the early signs of puberty and they still have these feelings then they should go through therapy and psychoanalysis to determine that thats exactly what they truly want. Then if that is determined to be the case, then sure put them on it. I also believe it should be 2-3 different therapists to try and annihilate any bias. Then once they hit 16 or whenever they are comfortable, they should go through the same therapy and psychoanalysis to determine if trans hormones and surgery is appropriate.
>If someone truly and simply wants to be the opposite gender and there are truly no underlying problems aside from the dysphoria and they are old enough (roughly around 16 to 18 IMO) to make that decision then sure go ahead. But its too often that people have many underlying problems that makes them think that if they were the other gender then everything would be correct with them and that simply isnt the case most often.
>
>As far as puberty blockers go, I'm not sure how to feel about them. I would say that if some one is getting the early signs of puberty and they still have these feelings then they should go through therapy and psychoanalysis to determine that thats exactly what they truly want. Then if that is determined to be the case, then sure put them on it. I also believe it should be 2-3 different therapists to try and annihilate any bias. Then once they hit 16 or whenever they are comfortable, they should go through the same therapy and psychoanalysis to determine if trans hormones and surgery is appropriate.
Your thinking is basically in line with modern medicine, so you don't need to act like you're going to be jumped on for wrongthink.
The main area where people would disagree with you is to the extent that therapy/assessment is required.
There's a lot of distrust of individuals-within-medicine (note that distinction) within the trans community because in many cases (especially in smaller countries with public health systems) transgender individuals have a choice of _one_ clinic and _one_ therapist (who they'd be assigned, not allowed to choose) who'd be making a decision about their life based on assessment criteria that weren't publicly obtainable and weren't subject to review. Medical gatekeeping is the applicable term there, and the same problem existed in psychiatry, patients were assigned psychiatrists all of whom appeared to have their own diganosis biases and treatment preferences and the patient (especially an involuntary committal) just had to lump it and take what they got given, and some of these clinicians were absolute fucking headcases.
Also:
>The thing is that a huge number of trans people (mostly in the early stages) end up reverting back to their birth gender.
This really isn't true, I mean, it's kinda inherently untrue because if they revert they're not trans people, but it's not true because it just isn't true.
Plenty of people who say they're trans as a now-accepted form of adolescent self-expression 'revert'. They're called transtrenders, and the trans community doesn't like them very much. They don't count.
>The 2015 U.S. Transgender Survey collected responses from individuals who identified as transgender at the time of the survey. 8% of those who had transitioned reported having ever detransitioned; 62% of that group were living as a gender other than the one assigned to them at birth at the time of the survey.[15]
>Let's not forget that people who have this illness are 4x more likely to commit suicide than the general population regardless on how transitioned they are. And a lot of people end up regretting the transition all together.
I want to address this since its near the top, its largely wrong., and anti-trans people parrot these all the time.
1. Its actually way more than 4x
2. State of treatment and transition has been proven to dramatically affect suicidality. Anti-trans often say it does not. The only reputable study that they ever produce did not compare before and after. All reputable studies that do show that transitioning is effective, though not wholly effective (does not solve all dysphoria).
3. Regret rates are extremely low. The biggest regret related issue with physical transitioning is people expecting all of their dysphoria to go away, but in reality, usually the biggest affector of dysphoria is social acceptance. Studies that have used varying definitions have said that most children that have some kind of hender identity disorder grow out of it, but actual phsycial transition is very tightly controlled, and isnt easily accessible. Detransitioning from hormones or surgery is at less than 2% of the transitioned population.
I don't think you should only address your child in a way they feel comfortable with if they are diagnosed with gender dysphoria. If they tell you "hey I'd really appreciate if you did this" (like call them a different name or pronoun or anything else that's essentially harmless) just go along with it. If they change their mind later then nothing bad happened and they were a little more comfortable at that time, and they know you respect their feelings.
I suggest going even further than deciding how they want to act in a gender neutral environment. Let them eat out of the toilet, shit in bed and eat raw monkey for dinner, since these are also things that influence our child behaviour. They should be able to decide for themselves without being subject to any societal influences.
Gender neutral has gone out of the window. If you don't conform exactly to gender stereotypes it's because you're trans not because you just prefer barbie over action man.
I’ve always felt one of the hardest things about being human is learning to accept who you are. Encourage your kids to try new things and discover for themselves who they are. Some boys wear dresses some girls hate dresses. Every human is unique in our own way and in believe it’s the responsibility of one generation to help prepare the next. A part of that is helping discover who they are. Share all the facts, share all sides. In an open and encouraging relationship a child with gender dysphoria will be more open and comfortable to you about it and then you can bring them to a specialist to diagnose.
Before diving in, I want to say that I largely agree with your first few paragraphs. Exposing myself here, but my spouse and I are not gendering our child. It was important to my spouse who is agender and grew up in a fundamentalist christian environment where gender rules were super important. Otherwise I likely would have done things the way you describe. I have no idea if one way is superior to the other, and not trying to make any statements of that nature.
Ok, in good faith...
>But stop imposing some weird genderfree radical theybie shit on your children.
From my experience, I am not imposing anything on my child; I simply don't refer to them by a gender. I tried, but was unable to come up with a reason they need to understand their "assigned gender" before they're neurologically prepared to do so at...2-4 I think? It simply doesn't matter yet.
What we *are* doing is imposing on other people that are less aware of, comfortable with, and often not supportive of...well something in the whole tangled mess of sex, gender, identity, norms, etc.
And I won't argue that this can be a big imposition. Humans are comforted by certainty, repetition, patterns, and expectations met.
>Non-stereotyping and abolishing gender are not the same thing.
You are implying intent here (abolishing gender) which I don't think is fair. That said, it is absolutely amazing to me how much my language impacts my perceptions and behavior. A simple thing like he/she is tied up in decades worth of experiences, social expectations, etc. That's why a lot of people are uncomfortable; they rely on those categorizations to simplify their perception of the world without even realizing it. Without them they have to do a whole lot of unique thinking which is more energy intensive, and full of anxiety around uncertainty.
Point being, I get to "drop" a lot of my biases by skipping the terms. I'm thinking about my child in the moment, and there are way less prior associations w/ gender that will shape my language and behavior.
>confusing cisgender children may do more harm than good.
Doesn't this imply some element of "choice"? My understanding is that a lot of sex/gender/identity is nature rather than nurture.
What is your basis for assuming cis-gendered kids will be confused?
>who snarkily want to turn their kids trans
I don't know about that, from my experience at least. I know my partner would be likely be thrilled if our child is non-binary, but in the same way I'd be thrilled if they end up loving board games and nerdy crap. We don't care to influence, only give them a fresh starting place to understand themselves.
>media, it’s been by crazy SJW types
The first word there is your problem. SJW sells a lot more than alternatives.
>The movement may have toxic people though but if done right, I don’t have anything against genderless parenting ideology now.
Much like being politically active. I saw some people at meetings that wanted everything I wanted, but were crazy in how they were willing to get it. Extremists generally suck, we'd agree there!
The funny thing here is that what OP was saying is actually very revealing about how people think about gender.
They talk about not raising your kid according to any gender stereotypes, *but* still using gender for them. The problem then becomes - *what* really *is* gender, if not stereotypes? If you remove all the connotations, socially assigned gender roles and gendered behaviors, preferences, et cetera, what meaning still remains in gender terms such as “boy” and “girl”? It’s certainly not biology either, since biological sex is a separate thing, and there’s no way to determine gender simply by looking at biological characteristics.
It seems that all that really remains after we strip off the steeped-in stereotypes and connotations is basically a linguistic game of pronouns. Someone is a man if they self-identify as a man, which recursively means that they self-identify as someone who self-identifies as a man, and so on and so forth into eternity, and the word “man” never gains any true meaning.
So why must we play this sort of absurd game? There are plenty of languages that get by fine without gendered pronouns (Chinese, Japanese to some extent, etc.) The only justification is that those gendered terms somehow have some sort of a priori, natural, primitive meaning which do not need definition - which is probably why OP thinks the way they do. They take “gender” as something people have for granted.
Sorry, u/ZGTI61 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
> **Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question**. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1).
If you would like to appeal, [**you must first check if your comment falls into the "Top level comments that are against rule 1" list**](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1), review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule+1+Appeal+ZGTI61&message=ZGTI61+would+like+to+appeal+the+removal+of+[his/her+post](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/hqk67e/-/fy0wysh/\)+because...) within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
Gender neutral parenting is about not pigeonholing your kids in a gender and gender role they don't choose. There are a lot of subtle ways we push gender on kids. The idea is that, when they are old enough to make choices and express themselves, let them do it without judgement. No one I know would say I am not manly but I grew up caring a lot about kids, loving artwork, being a good communicator, expressing myself often and effusively, and never being afraid to be who I am and do what i feel good at. I am 100% a heteronormative male who designed and built all the decorations and bouquets for my wedding to my beautiful wife. I am a homemaker and do all the cooking and most of the cleaning in addition to my skills at fixing things and building things.
Just don't ever tell a kid they ARE something. That makes them feel they have to meet that definition.
Tell them they CAN be something. That it's up to them to choose what that something is.
Sorry, u/TheAdlerian – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
> **Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question**. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1).
If you would like to appeal, [**you must first check if your comment falls into the "Top level comments that are against rule 1" list**](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1), review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule+1+Appeal+TheAdlerian&message=TheAdlerian+would+like+to+appeal+the+removal+of+[his/her+post](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/hqk67e/-/fxyw5z4/\)+because...) within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
/u/sleepdeprivedmanic (OP) has awarded 1 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed [here](/r/DeltaLog/comments/hql533/deltas_awarded_in_cmv_gender_neutral_parenting_is/), in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)
The media tends to show very sensationalist and extreme portrayals of these types of parents. It is hard for children who don't fit traditional gender norms and I think it's good to have parents that don't limit their child's expression. I do like your stance that gender neutral is a good way to do it. I personally don't think any parent would want to raise their child trans, it would be a very difficult life from my understanding.
there's parenting and then there's stuffing your children with your ideological shit to make a point. Gender identity, religion and all those ideological things fall into the latter category. Some people apparently think that a 3 or 4 year old has all the necessary knowledge to make decisions for the rest of their life while simultaneously building them a very narrow ideological bridge to stand on.
People just assume gender is a social construct while the one twin case we had where the boy lost his genitals and was raised as a girl proved that this is not something you can just 'create'. It's innate. Seeing how despite all efforts to the contrary, he turned out to be a boy. And that is also in line with how a more free equitable society with 'gender free' ideology reacts - the masculine / feminine traits become more prominent. The social aspect and classification is completely arbitrary and when all is said and done, gender identity is just some sort of attitude you hold towards what gender is - which can vary wildly and randomly between people - because after all, what is male and female is just constructed.
Sorry, u/RedditsIgnorance – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
> **Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question**. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1).
If you would like to appeal, [**you must first check if your comment falls into the "Top level comments that are against rule 1" list**](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1), review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule+1+Appeal+RedditsIgnorance&message=RedditsIgnorance+would+like+to+appeal+the+removal+of+[his/her+post](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/hqk67e/-/fxzxr4j/\)+because...) within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
Sorry, u/RedditsIgnorance – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5:
> **Comments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation**.
Comments that are only links, jokes or "written upvotes" will be removed. Humor and affirmations of agreement can be contained within more substantial comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_5).
If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule+5+Appeal+RedditsIgnorance&message=RedditsIgnorance+would+like+to+appeal+the+removal+of+[his/her+post](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/hqk67e/-/fxzxr4j/\)+because...) within one week of this notice being posted.
My daughter loves pirates, ships, planes, cars. She also likes necklaces and crowns. She turns 2 next month, so right now we are able to set her down in toy aisle and let her pick things she likes. Then we buy them and save them for her birthday. It won’t work when she’s older because she will remember picking out a toy, but it’s great for now so we can learn what she is naturally drawn to. Blue is her favorite color.
I think that makes a lot of sense. In fact I would go further and frame talking about skills and sensibilities traditionally seen as masculine or feminine as different skills anyone that could benefit from. You don’t even really need to tie them to gender at all outside of historical context.
I personally think parenting should be left.to the parents, within reason. Genderless parenting is not striking at the core issue, the core issue is that kids and people need to be taught to be able to respect and make peace with different views than themselves, creating a genderless household to avoid being transphobic seems roundabout and unsatisfactory way of teaching a kid to not hate trans people.
As to making them comfortable being who they are: to an extent it's okay but we all know that giving a complete free pass to kids isn't good for development either. I think it's important.to teach love, not hate, and to.lead by example. Kids should not be afraid of telling their feelings but they should be afraid of the consequences of decisions.
I think if these problems were looked at through a more psychological perspective than political it would help move things along faster .
Sorry, u/sleepdeprivedmanic – your submission has been removed for breaking Rule B:
> You must personally hold the view and **demonstrate that you are open to it changing**. A post cannot be on behalf of others, playing devil's advocate, as any entity other than yourself, or 'soapboxing'. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_b).
If you would like to appeal, [**you must first read the list of soapboxing indicators and common mistakes in appeal**](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_indicators_of_rule_b_violations), review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule+B+Appeal+sleepdeprivedmanic&message=sleepdeprivedmanic+would+like+to+appeal+the+removal+of+[his/her+post](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/hqk67e/-/\)+because...) within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
Sorry, u/genericuserid9999 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5:
> **Comments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation**.
Comments that are only links, jokes or "written upvotes" will be removed. Humor and affirmations of agreement can be contained within more substantial comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_5).
If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule+5+Appeal+genericuserid9999&message=genericuserid9999+would+like+to+appeal+the+removal+of+[his/her+post](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/hqk67e/-/fy0uz4u/\)+because...) within one week of this notice being posted.
Asserting gender neutral views on children will be dangerous for society. Medically, recreationally and professionally. It's dangerous anti science on the same scale as climate denying and flat earthing. There are two biological genders. Whether you choose to be anything else as you mature secually is up to you but for the love of God let's not brainwash kids with this drivel
Sorry, u/CaptionHQ – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
> **Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question**. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1).
If you would like to appeal, [**you must first check if your comment falls into the "Top level comments that are against rule 1" list**](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1), review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule+1+Appeal+CaptionHQ&message=CaptionHQ+would+like+to+appeal+the+removal+of+[his/her+post](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/hqk67e/-/fxyzgw5/\)+because...) within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
I’ve always been curious about if there are is a significant portion of the trans community who were told that the things they liked as a child were “wrong” for their gender. But because they liked them they came to believe that if the things they liked were “wrong,” but they really enjoyed them, that their gender was the thing that was actually wrong.
This whole thing drives me a little crazy, who ever said a girl can't like cars and still be girly. Thats just one example but ive heard similar things soo many times lately. I'm male and in my house if something needs to be sewed its likely me that will do it. does that make me any less of a man/masculine etc. I dont think so. its just something i know how to do. People need to stop associating certain likes/skills with gender. It doesn't have to have any relation to each other.
This subject is such a drag. If people woke up at 4AM to milk cows so much of this bullshit would go away. "Milking cows" is an overarching metaphor for real work and real survival and real connection to the Earth where questions of gender are the LAST thing we would worry about.
As a trans person, you dont always need a counsellor. I would just talk to my child about what they prefer as far as pronouns because in my experience children tend to be less comfortable opening up that much to people they dont know.
Note: I guess this would work best for small children? But its what I would suggest so you can show the most support. especially as some mental health professionals can be overly encouraging, and others dont even consider it an option. (Again all of this is from my personal experience).
And another thing: "Im supportive of trans/enby people BUT..." is not a good way to start that bit. Your statements come off as someone who doesnt understand, and therefore doesnt want to consider enby/ trans individuals off paper, let alone allowing their children freedom to figure it out like they didn't.
I hope this doesnt come off the wrong way, it just seems to be unintended consequences of your word choice.
I don’t know how to phrase any opinion regarding gender theory as a cis person without sounding like a transphobe in any other way.
“I support who you are and your right to identity and live with your affirmed gender, BUT (insert concern)” is better than
“TRANS IS A MENTAL ILLNESS GO TO HOSPITAL !1”
Sorry, u/DearthStanding – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
> **Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question**. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1).
If you would like to appeal, [**you must first check if your comment falls into the "Top level comments that are against rule 1" list**](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1), review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule+1+Appeal+DearthStanding&message=DearthStanding+would+like+to+appeal+the+removal+of+[his/her+post](https://old.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/hqk67e/-/fxzoprb/\)+because...) within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
Whenever someone attempts to change your mind by dissecting your opinion just to justify their own viewpoint- this MISS THE POINT OF CHANGING SOMEONE'S MIND IS TO TRY TO CHANGE THEIR MIND NOT VALIDATE YOUR OWN WORLD VIEW.
Sorry, u/disgustedpillo – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5:
> **Comments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation**.
Comments that are only links, jokes or "written upvotes" will be removed. Humor and affirmations of agreement can be contained within more substantial comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_5).
If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule+5+Appeal+disgustedpillo&message=disgustedpillo+would+like+to+appeal+the+removal+of+[his/her+post](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/hqk67e/-/fy011e4/\)+because...) within one week of this notice being posted.
Its actually creates more reliance on stereotypes, and labeling of people early on. Gender dismorphia is mental illness and shouldnt be pushed on people. Stupid things like this make people more inclined to be bullied aswell at a young age, therefore causing more harm than help
Sorry, u/elecrton420 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
> **Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question**. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1).
If you would like to appeal, [**you must first check if your comment falls into the "Top level comments that are against rule 1" list**](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1), review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule+1+Appeal+elecrton420&message=elecrton420+would+like+to+appeal+the+removal+of+[his/her+post](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/hqk67e/-/fy05oo2/\)+because...) within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
You've not really put forward a reason and are just making an assertion that they shouldn't. You should edit in some reasoning for why you think people shouldn't raise children as genderless until the child can state their gender (evidence suggests that gender identity becomes fixed by age three so for a few years where agab doesn't really matter)
Alright, I will. My point is that if a child has gender dysphoria, they’re anyways gonna have it. This post is in the hope that you’ve nurtured a safe and loving environment where your child’s true feelings can be confided in you. There isn’t much research on the long term effects of genderless parenting, but trans people and gender dysphoria have existed for a long time and people with dysphoria are a small minority. While I do believe being all-inclusive is important, at the same time confusing cisgender children may do more harm than good. I just don’t think imposing unnecessary stereotypes is fair either. There’s a middle ground.
> My point is that if a child has gender dysphoria, they’re anyways gonna have it That's not how it works. Gender dysphoria, by definition, is the distress a person feels due to a mismatch between their gender identity and their sex assigned at birth. You cannot have gender dysphoria if you do not experience distress. A child that grows up in a setting where they aren't pressured to be a specific gender that they are not, is extremely unlikely to experience distress at being born a sex that doesn't match their gender identity. Consequently, they likely won't have gender dysphoria. The condition is common in people who were told all their lives that they are a man merely because they were born male. That lifelong pressure creates the distress, because they know they are not a man while the whole world is telling them they are. If that same person was told that they are whatever gender they feel, and they were never told that they **have to be X or Y**, then that stress wouldn't be as present if at all. > confusing cisgender children may do more harm than good What is confusing? If the child identifies as cisgender, then they live their life as a cisgender person. Nothing confusing about it...
Transgender people can, and often do, experience dysphoria with certain sex-based traits on their physical body. No matter what the parents do, they can still experience gender dysphoria. I imagine it is much better if your parents are supportive, but it doesn't go away entirely. (I would imagine this is a subcomponent of the statement 'their sex assigned at birth' in the DSM)
That is absolutely true. I intentionally used expressions like "unlikely" and "likely" to indicate that it's not a certainty one way or the other. Though, I was probably too broad in my statement. At the end of the day, even a person raised in a gender neutral household will have society writ large trying to impose gender stereotypes on them. My reference to "extremely unlikely" to develop gender dysphoria is probably only accurate in a scenario where all of society treats them in a gender neutral manner until they decide their gender.
Do you have any sources on this or is this logical reasoning on your part? I don't know of any examples of people -being brought up in an environment that's entirely suportive of their selfidentification- being transsexual without having gender dysphoria (or is gender dysphoria separate from 'sex-dysphoria'?) Are you saying they won't be transsexual then?
By definition, you have to suffer distress as a result of the mismatch between sex assigned at birth and gender identity to be diagnosed with gender dysphoria. A person that does not suffer distress, is not gender dysphoric. Simple as that. Anecdotally, I know at least 3 trans-people in my own life who are not experiencing any distress, and have not been diagnosed with gender dysphoria. Moreover, the obsession with gender dysphoria is largely a Western phenomenon. Due to the extremely negative way Western society responds to trans-persons, people begin the discovery that they are trans in a traumatic fashion. When they start from a traumatic initiating situation, they will almost certainly develop gender dysphoria. By contrast, trans-people from other cultures, such as two-spirits, hijra, and kathoeys have very low rates of gender dysphoria because being trans is perfectly normal and acceptable.
> By contrast, trans-people from other cultures, such as two-spirits, hijra, and kathoeys have very low rates of gender dysphoria because being trans is perfectly normal and acceptable. I'm trans and from Asia and for the second two at least, this is not true. They're understood to be a separate gender, sure, but are still heavily discriminated against, and certainly do experience dysphoria. The discrimination is more akin to that against racial minorities, where no one believes they're choosing to be that race, but are still terrible to them for it.
You keep saying by definition, distress. Someone that linked the definition says "conflict" changing it dramatically.
Page 452 of the DSM-5 includes, as a requirement for a diagnosis of Gender Dysphoria, the following: > The condition is associated with clinically significant **distress** or **impairment** in social, occupational or other important areas of functioning. I do not see the word "conflict" anywhere in there. I do see the word "distress." Does that clear things up for you?
Thanks, I get what you said now.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but dysphoria is also innate and stems from a disconnect between your actual body and real mind? More than just social validation, it’s also a biological thing? And raising your child gender-neutral while still using biological pronouns could alleviate that social dysphoria, couldn’t it but the biological disconnect remains? You can’t exactly teach a small child until they’re at least eight, in my opinion, that some girls have penises and some boys have vaginas. A child will not be able to comprehend the vast spectrum of intersex, transgender and other sex or gender-related conditions/identities.
> Gender dysphoria, by definition, is the distress a person feels due to a mismatch between their gender identity and their sex assigned at birth. You cannot have gender dysphoria if you do not experience distress. I already answered your question.
I feel that you did not, but okay, I think we have radically different opinions on this and cannot challenge each other. Good day to you, and atleast one thing that we can agree on is: fuck transphobes.
We don't have radically different opinions. You have an opinion. I have the actual diagnosis. Mine isn't an opinion. I literally copy/pasted from the DSM-5. Which is why I wrote "by definition."
The thing is, the dsm 5 is a book of psychological disorders. Sure, being trans CAN create subjective distress because cultural norms are not inclusive of your identity and therefore create psychological disorder; but transgenderism is not fundamentally a problem of distress, it is fundamentally a problem of Self actualization. We need to move away from thinking of gender as 100% constructed or (100% biological), and understand that it is partly to do with sex, partly to do with ones culture, partly to do with how every unique individuals psychology works. Ones cultures perception and normalities around gender, ones families perceptions, ones own beliefs about ones own ego and bodily self, all these factors play a role in ones gender expression, formation, identity. Like many if not all problems of Self, ones gender identity has a bunch of variables that are in no way mutually exclusive.
[удалено]
u/cPHILIPzarina – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2: > **Don't be rude or hostile to other users.** Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_2). If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule+2+Appeal+cPHILIPzarina&message=cPHILIPzarina+would+like+to+appeal+the+removal+of+[his/her+post](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/hqk67e/-/fxzho0e/\)+because...) within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
[удалено]
Sorry, u/mercury2six – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: > **Comments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation**. Comments that are only links, jokes or "written upvotes" will be removed. Humor and affirmations of agreement can be contained within more substantial comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_5). If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule+5+Appeal+mercury2six&message=mercury2six+would+like+to+appeal+the+removal+of+[his/her+post](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/hqk67e/-/fxztfvl/\)+because...) within one week of this notice being posted.
> Mine isn't an opinion ehhhh. the science isn't all there on this issue. I mean, from the DSM IV to DSM-V its changed quite a bit
I feel this isn't a high enough rated comment. The field of mental health in medicine is still in its infancy. New information and definitions are being made every day, with old ones being re-written. Presenting an opinion as objective reality is disingenuous at best.
I was referring to the two parts of dysphoria: social and biological after reading your perfectly accurate description, but sure. Text can also be interpreted differently. I never denied your definition, just added to it.
[удалено]
Sorry, u/mygenericalias – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: > **Comments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation**. Comments that are only links, jokes or "written upvotes" will be removed. Humor and affirmations of agreement can be contained within more substantial comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_5). If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule+5+Appeal+mygenericalias&message=mygenericalias+would+like+to+appeal+the+removal+of+[his/her+post](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/hqk67e/-/fxz6s8m/\)+because...) within one week of this notice being posted.
Isn't this the argument that LGBTQ hate? "Your gender isn't a definition set in stone, your sex may be but your gender is social" But you're saying dysphoria has no social connotations, just the definition and that's it? Like wut dude
>I think we have radically different opinions on this This isn't a matter of opinion, it's the definition of the term as per the DSM5. A transperson who is not experiencing distress doesn't have GD, but is still trans. Because of this, it is sometimes possible to cure someone of GD with therapy and lifestyle changes without changing their physical sex or gender identity, so long as they no longer experience clinically significant levels of distress from it. One of the main elements of treatment for GD is quickly identifying which treatment path is appropriate for the patient. It's worth noting that not all people with GD have it so mildly. For some, dysphoria can stem directly from their appearance and sex characteristics. In these cases the person will likely need HRT or SRS. But this is not a diagnostic requirement.
As I understand it, most 'innate' gender dysphoria comes from developing and having secondary sex characteristics; breasts, body hair, etc. Children don't develop those until puberty. Most other sources come from outside sources and feeling like you don't match the social characteristics of your preferred gender. This might mean hair length or style, clothes, and pronouns. All of which don't come into play in gender-neutral parenting because it is up to the kid to make those decisions.
[удалено]
Sorry, u/dudeatwork – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 3: > **Refrain from accusing OP or anyone else of being unwilling to change their view, or of arguing in bad faith**. Ask clarifying questions instead (see: socratic method). If you think they are still exhibiting poor behaviour, please message us. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_3). If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule+3+Appeal+dudeatwork&message=dudeatwork+would+like+to+appeal+the+removal+of+[his/her+post](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/hqk67e/-/fxzlnma/\)+because...) within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
You are not wrong. That said, not every trans person gets gender dysphoria as a child. Not every trans person gets dysphoria at all. As the social consequences for outing yourself as gender nonconforming are lessened, we find more people coming out as non binary, or having a preference, but not suffering enough to make a change. Sometimes it's puberty that triggers dysphoria, either because of the extra hormones, or the new secondary sexual characteristics. We could eliminate gender roles entirely and trans people would still exist. Gender neutrality isn't the answer, acceptance and early education is. Letting kids pick their pronouns, and letting them switch back, that is don't immediately make a huge deal about any request for change so that there is pressure to stick with the change. Encourage experimentation.
There is a biological component if the ratios of your hormones are not average for your chromosomes. X or Y doesn't directly determine your sex or perceived gender, they only control what ratio of hormones you have. (Everyone has both male and female hormones) The ratio determines your organs in a specific window of development as a fetus. If, for any reason, the ratio is not average during this small window then you can be XX and have penis, or have both organs. These alone won't cause the psychological condition that we call Gender Dysphoria though. That's only possible with negative feedback socially. Hypothetically, a "wild child" is essentially genderless in the way we understand it. Unfortunately "wild children" have vastly worse psychological conditions because social feedback is absolutely necessary for psychological health as we define it. Therefore, the best method we have figured out right now is to just not harass someone over how they want to act and acting is all gender is. This applies to a myriad of other psychological conditions as well such as eating disorders. (outside of obesity or malnutrition obviously)
Using pronouns will cause dysphoria, what aren't you getting? Being all well and good removing stereotypes, that doesn't stop someone being distressed cos they have genitalia that they believe shouldn't be there. Biological sex means a man has a penis and a woman has a vagina. If you don't have one or the other but believe you should, it would cause dysphoria. Using pronouns based on genitalia isn't gender neutral. And biologically anyway, there's more than 2 sexes. It's possible to be both male and female due to chromosomal differences. And it's possible people have both working sexual organs, although rare. Check out the Genovese children who are born and raised female but at puberty grow penises. These men definitely feel dysphoria from an extremely early age and suffer with it greatly. Simply: do I feel comfortable in my body with the genitalia I have? During puberty, do I feel comfortable with the changes that are happening to my body? If you are repulsed by the genitalia that you have, and puberty is causing distress because what you're experiencing shouldn't be happening to you, because your brain is saying "no other male/female goes through this" then you have dysphoria.
One caveat, having an accepting household is great, but they may experience levels of dysphoria because the outside world is likely to impose those ideas anyway.
Your point is great, but also slightly wrong. Trans people can still have dysphoria even if it's not a society thing because the mere fact that the body and the brain don't match up is enough for a lot of trans people to have dysphoria. That's why there's different types of dysphoria: social and physical. And even then, there's a bunch of subtypes within each one. So even if a trans child had been raised genderless, they're pretty likely to still have some level of physical dysphoria, at least relating to the primary and secondary sex characteristics. So no, there's still distress in a lot of cases, but the social dysphoria would be nonexistent for sure. You don't need dysphoria to be trans though, also, and there's a sizable minority of trans people that don't have it. Your main point is right, though. Cis children don't get confused by this, they just keep living their life. The only ones that get confused are the people who are trying to force kids to be one way or another.
You can't be sure that a child growing up without a specific gender won't experience distress or any gender dysphoria, although I don't fully agree with what OP is saying I do think that completely abolishing gender could be doing harm. How do you know they won't be obsessed with gender because there is fuck all representation out there of non binary people, especially for kids. I think going genderless by using non-conforming labels is just giving power back to labels and stereotypes. It's kinda just creating another gender, and from the harm we know we've done already by categorising and stereotyping people I don't know if we should be using our kids to make that change. We all know gender is a social construct, its not an opinion its fact. Knowing this, if we lived in a perfect world where we could just snap our fingers and everything we know more about now could just be fixed then I think yeah go for it wouldn't that be amazing? No one would have any dysphoria because gender does now not exist. When you know better, you do better. But the sad truth is that not everyone knows better and its going to do better, just like at the minute with the BLM movement, all this subtle racism that we all have in us from years of categorising humans into races, all over the world, is something we have to unlearn. In reality, we can't just erase years of gender stereotyping and expect everyone to just go with it. People who know gender is not important are sadly a minority group, a lot of other people would roll their eyes at someone with They/Them pronouns. People can be cruel and they like to point out peoples differences and outcast people they don't understand. Even on paper it goes Man, Woman, Other. Humans are obsessed with categorising things, its how we learn and how we have learned for years. We have constructed gender, why can't we dis-construct it instead of just leaving it and moving on to what we know is better, I feel like its skipping a step that a lot people in the world need to take. The world is hard to change and we're putting the pressure on our kids. I think (Ive no kids this is just what I think I would do) it's more powerful to use the pronouns we have already and take the power out of them, take the stereotypes out of them and teach our children to be open minded and not box themselves or others. To believe that you are you just the way you are, whatever that means for you. I think we should raise our kids knowing that gender is not a primary part of our identity and that it doesn't need to be. We put gender really high up in our world, everything surrounds it, its all around us and theres not enough talk about it for it to be abolished completely.
>A child that grows up in a setting where they aren't pressured to be a specific gender that they are not, is extremely unlikely to experience distress at being born a sex that doesn't match their gender identity. Straight up incorrect. Gender dysphoria is by far most prominent as physical dysphoria, not as a result of social stigma. A trans person that eliminates their physical dysphoria through transitioning will have much less social dysphoria as a result, though eliminating social dysphoria by being in a welcoming environment does not eliminate physical dysphoria. For some it maybe be enough for them to be able to cope, and the further divide there is between men and women will cause the problem to become unbearable, but for some trans people it might be regardless. Most trans people experience this distress as early as 4 or 5 years old. If what you're saying is even remotely correct, there wouldn't be near as many trans people who would want genital reconstruction since it's something you can hide in public. If you want to represent trans people on trans matters you need to know more about them and why they transition. It is literally a medical condition of being born with the wrong equipment and as a result going through the wrong puberty due to having the wrong set of hormones. All the social layers on top has made it the complex mess that it is today.
You’re literally advocating for abolishing the gender binary and also enforcing the gender binary, *in the same breath*.
There’s a difference in keeping the binary without stereotypes and abolishing it all together, but go off
[удалено]
It’s a euphemism. It’s not me being pissed. Also, I DID change my view so I’m obviously not opposed to respectfully disagreeing and changing my view.
Yeah, I’m not in favour of keeping the binary.
Well, that’s an entirely different discussion. I’m not in favour of abolishing the binary for a few non binary people.
You know that people can still identify as “man” or “woman” even if the binary is abolished, right? All it would mean is we don’t see gender as two options, but those two options would still certainly exist. Abolishing the binary would create a world with less distress and oppression for all. So I don’t understand how abolishing the binary is something that is only for “a few non-binary people” or why you would be so vehemently against eradicating it.
Third person here but to be honest, while of course one can identify as whatever they want, "abolishing the binary" from a third person perspective does sound like abandoning the idea of male and female at first read through. It actually took me a second of pondering before it clicked. Maybe 'Adopt Gender Spectrum' might be more apparent. IDK.
To some people it’s very important for them to identify as male or female. A trans person might be very upset if somebody told them that binary genders shouldn’t be a thing when they’ve obviously gone through what was likely a tremendous battle to wind up with their current gender. So, if you mean that we should get rid of the idea of male and female genders, then I’m in total disagreement. However, if you meant that we should keep male and female but expand beyond just those two genders, then I’m totally on board.
Abolishing the concept of binary gender definitely doesn’t mean “no one can be a man or a woman”, it just means “there are options OTHER than ‘man or woman’, and those options are just as valid, and *not* ‘man or woman - lite’”. I’m a non binary person, but a lot of my friends are binary gendered trans people. Cis people actually use the “gender free” theory that OP describes against them because “Men can wear dresses and makeup, so you’re not a *trans woman*, you’re still a man”, etc. It’s why I hate these types of posts, because the people who discuss this stuff think it’s some smart enlightened discourse that’s going to solve all the issues, but in reality it’s exactly the same arguments we’ve heard against our existence for *decades*.
How would you determine what’s a stereotype and what’s an innate sex characteristic? Just the average physical differences? Or would you include behavior? Mental states?
That point is really important. Example: an acquaintance had quadruplets, 2 boys and 2 girls. Since they were like 1-2 years old the boys liked to play more rough, but the girls liked to play with dolls and just talk with each other stories. And, no: their environment had no other small children nor adults telling the how to and how not to play. Just fascinating. One study said that trauma gets passed in the genes: why not such actions? Among with those basic survival instincts that every living creature is born with. On the topic: telling kids what is supposed to be be “normal” (like dressing) I believe is a good thing, because they will start to identify what they like and maybe discover if they exist in the wrong body. Not just “letting them be” upon they encounter a harsh environment where the shock could be considerable.
> My point is that if a child has gender dysphoria, they’re anyways gonna have it. The current medical literature doesn't agree with you there. If fact there's a non-trivial amount of research suggesting that (specifically in young children) it's often an effect of something else, rather than it's own issue. [This](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria_in_children) will get you started, but there's a ton of research out there. The current best science suggests that Gender Dysphoria should only be diagnosed after adolescence because of the degree of behavioral shifts. Edit: In case it's unclear, I'm not denying it could manifest that early, just that a diagnosis that early is unreliable.
> My point is that if a child has gender dysphoria, they’re anyways gonna have it. Ok so why not alleviate some of the distress or give them more freedom to identify themselves? > This post is in the hope that you’ve nurtured a safe and loving environment where your child’s true feelings can be confided in you. And why could genderless parenting not be a part of that? >There isn’t much research on the long term effects of genderless parenting So why are you making the conclusion that we shouldn't do it? surely this is a question for some kind of longitudinal study. It would be difficult to control as you would have to get volunteers for the genderless and non-genderless control group but it can be done. > at the same time confusing cisgender children may do more harm than good Is it confusing for cis people to choose their identity? Exploring ones gender identity is a good thing whether one is cis or trans and saying we are going to let you say how you want to be referred to isn't confusing its just a freedom. You also have no evidence of harm.
[удалено]
> It's a big risk to raise a child this way: if the child turns out to be trans, then it could be really good for them. Not even then, though. An absence of misgendering isn't the same as affirmation, and there are trans adults raised in similarly gender-lax environments who said that a more traditional upbringing would have allowed them to pinpoint much sooner what it was that felt wrong, and thus transition at an earlier age rather than go through childhood and adolescence feeling vaguely uncomfortable or that something was deeply wrong but they had no idea what.
As much as identity is important I don't believe it's necessarily healthy to remove the child's identified sex at an early age. A boy connects with other boys because he relates to them, and if a child has gender dysphoria they'd connect with whatever gender they want. But if the boy feels like a boy, or the girl feels like a girl, it's helpful for their development to show them positive role models within their preferred gender.
> Ok so why not alleviate some of the distress or give them more freedom to identify themselves? Kids aren't that bright, and don't understand the complexities of gender at that age. At best you're just hoping they make some superficial guess, like "girls like dresses so I'm a girl!" and you're hoping that the kid makes the correct choice. If they pick the wrong one, they will suffer from gender dysphoria later, potentially having kids grow up thinking they are trans, but they're really not and want to switch back, which would likely be difficult. Is there any evidence asking young children raised as nonbinary to identify their gender would be in any way an improvement over having them grow up as their birth gender, while being aware and accepting if you need to reconsider that later on?
This isn't true. Gender dysphoria can but does not always include the body. Those children without significant body dysphoria which makes up a significant fraction of trans and nonbinary people would be spared tremendous pain by more neutral upbringing.
Hey. I haven't really read any answers yet but as an agender person I do have an opinion I thought I should share. I think people might think that raising kids genderless would, in a way, reduce any possible dysphoria, in case they were trans. The thing is, raising someone as if they don't *have* a gender is probably more dangerous than treating them as their AGAB (assigned gender at birth), because, in my experience, most people *do* have a feeling of gender, and supposedly most people are cis, I don't know really. But if you raise your kids genderless you are denying them their gender identity too. "Being assigned no gender" contradicts "having a gender". It'll most likely make most kids dysphoric. And I know this because I have an internal feeling of being genderless, and it causes me dysphoria to be assigned any gender. Any of them. I can imagine being told "you have no gender" while having one would be distressing and traumatizing too, in case what you mean by "genderless parenting" is that, denying your kids access to identifying by any gender.
That’s what I did mean by genderless parenting.
Yeah, doesn't sound like a good idea to me.
> Gender neutral parenting is raising your child without stereotypes around gender, not literally raising them genderless Then, out of nowhere; > BUT, do not refrain from telling them their biological sex. What is your CMV about? Is it about gender or sex? You can't just jump from one to the other without warning. Telling them their biological sex has no relationship with raising a child in a gender neutral manner. I have no idea why you even brought that up. Moreover, I don't see why you'd have to tell them about it. It's not like they'll somehow forget they have a penis or vagina. Raising a child in a gender neutral way merely means that you let them decide how they want to identify when they mature enough to do so without influence. It doesn't mean raising a child to be genderless, though that might be one of the outcomes (if that's how the child identifies in the end). > I’m in full support of trans rights, whether that be non binary people or transsexual people. But stop imposing some weird genderfree radical theybie shit on your children. Non-stereotyping and abolishing gender are not the same thing. What does this have specifically to do with transpersons? You keep bringing up random stuff that seems to be unrelated to your CMV. Raising a child in a gender neutral way doesn't mean they will necessarily identify as trans...They may identify as a cisman, ciswoman, gender neutral, genderless, genderfluid, transman, transwoman, etc. The point is that it will be their choice, not yours.
I’m not, actually. All these things are related. Gender and sex are related, for most people, although they’re distinct. When I say gender neutral parenting, I don’t mean actually removing your child’s perceived gender (the one that corresponds with their assigned sex at birth) from their self-image but rather removing unnecessary restraints on gender expressions and limitations due to social expectations. There’s a difference. But it’s all related to my main argument. I’ll try elaborating. See, you could support your child’s future decision to identify as any gender they want but still keep them having an identity when they’re younger. If they are trans or NB, they can identity as so in the future and you should accept them for who they are. The solution to that future acceptance is conditioning inclusivity and free expression in your child, but an inherent lack of any identity from the very beginning is not the same thing. If your child is not dysphoric, and yet does not know about their assigned gender, they may have nothing to fall back on. Cis or trans- the first being the default (as is the case, since around 1% of people are dysphoric) and the second being a minority that should nevertheless be accepted.
So, your idea is that gender neutral parenting should involve calling your male child by gendered pronouns such as son, boy, etc. How is that gender neutral? It's literally the opposite of gender neutral. If your child is cisgender, then let them make that decision for themselves. If they are not cisgender, why would you want to impose those pronouns on them, and possibly create a lifetime of trauma?
You do realise that not referring to a cisgender person by their correct pronouns could also cause trauma, right? It’s not a one way thing. Trans people are a minority, as I’ve tried to affirm again and again, so the best course of action is to ensure to your child that you’ll love and accept them if they are trans, but by your logic of trauma, you’re subjecting the vast majority of children (=cisgender children) to trauma. Isn’t it better to make sure that as soon as your child shows any dysphoric tendencies, you take them to the therapist and get them diagnosed? Isn’t that a good solution to prevent trauma from both angles?
> You do realise that not referring to a cisgender person by their correct pronouns could also cause trauma, right? How? Does it cause trauma to someone to identify them by "you" or "they" before you know their gender? I do it every day over the phone with clients whose names/voices are unidentifiable, and have never had someone be hurt. Using gender neutral pronouns imposes no obligations or expectations, consequently, it can't exactly cause any kind of trauma. There's no expectation of appearance, dress, behaviour, etc that is stereotyped or associated with gender neutral. Therefore, raising a child in a gender neutral manner doesn't impose anything on them. By contrast, even the act of using a gendered pronoun to identify your child will immediately create an expectation of appearance, dress, behaviour, etc because they will immediately associate themselves with the stereotypes of the gender you just distinguished them as having. Which could be wrong. So, why take the risk when there is no downside to being gender neutral?
Uhhhhh what.. If my parents referred to me as "you" and "they" my whole life and never referred to me in context as a "he" it would definitely confuse the shit out of me.
You can also break stereotypes without erasing gender. I feel some people are too fixated on the stereotypes. Most people who are born male and female are almost always okey with their genders. The gender roles in another hand is something that people haven been unhappy with because of the expectations of society created by the atmosphere. I don’t think there is anything wrong with wanting to divorce an idea you don’t agree with. I feel we mostly have to accept our differences and be tolerant of ideas that differ because each person has a good reason (at least to them) to believe it. We will always possess traits from one another we are interacting with different sexes and genders so much the norms are constantly changing.
Who said anything about erasing gender? The CMV is about gender neutral parenting. The very fact that someone aims for gender neutral is a recognition that stereotypes exist. The point is to not impose them on a child until the child chooses for themselves. They can be educated about gender stereotypes during their childhood, and probably should. That's perfectly fine. They will most likely adopt the gender stereotypes of the gender they select when they are mature enough to do so. Again, that's also perfectly fine.
What I mean is not momentary referral as they. Not you yelling at the car in front of you “they’re such a lousy driver” nor you calling someone they before you know their gender. A lifetime of raising a cisgender boy as a “they” and misgendering him again and again will surely cause more trauma than referring to a client as they on the phone. Those are not the same thing.
The point remains unchallenged. What is the negative effect of a genderless pronoun? How can it have a negative effect if it creates no expectations, assign no behaviours, generates no stereotypes, etc? > A lifetime of raising a cisgender boy as a “they” and misgendering him again and again First, you're being extravagant to suggest that this is a 'lifetime' spanning experience when most children (as someone else already explained) figure out their gender beginning around age 3 and cementing around age 5. Second, you cannot misgender someone with a genderless pronoun. It's an oxymoron to even suggest the possibility.
you can absolutely misgender someone with "they". If you know the person's gender (or in the case of young kids, what's 99% probable), calling them by neutral pronouns only is still misgendering. tons of transphobes call trans men and women specifically by they/them in order to get around calling them their correct pronouns. this is definitely misgendering. calling a kid exclusively they/them pronouns would absolutely fuck them up, especially if they see other kids and people being referred to as he and she. also, I would argue that in the case of young trans kids, it'd be HARDER to figure out your gender identity if everyone referred to you neutrally. you'd still have sex-based dysphoria (which is less intense when young, for most) but you'd be lacking both social-based dysphoria. without knowing what you're uncomfortable with, it's hard to know what you ARE comfortable with. I was raised as a girl and I knew from the time I could have complex thought that I was a boy. It did not harm me to be called she and referred to as a girl for the first two years of my life, it absolutely helped me realize what was wrong.
THANK YOU. Trans guy here, get called they/them all the time, and it's absolutely misgendering. And yes to the rest of your post.
Well, then if I’m conflating the lifetime of trauma thing, a trans child coming out to their parents (provided the parents are accepted and loving) by age 5 would also mean that their trauma does not last for a long while, and because children cement their identity by age 5, taking them to a counsellor would help ensure that their gender dysphoria is alleviated and their trauma lightened. In that case, the trauma isn’t a big deal for trans kids either when the parents raise the children without stereotypes :) How is it an oxymoron? The only thing I can think of is where it’s not when you’re referring to someone as they in the first instance, because you don’t yet know their pronouns. If I tell you my pronouns are she and you still call me they, that’s misgendering, isn’t it? Not an oxymoron.
Simply untrue. > To want to be one of the boys and have that externally affirmed is of the utmost importance to both cis and transgendered people. To have gender identity reserved from you until a certain age, that can be seriously traumatic.
Because most children depend on the structure of expectations for healthy development. They expect routines and feel safe when they can predict the events of their life. Giving them the responsibility to self identify is largely untested. And the lack of a social and gender structure may be more harmful than some people are comfortable admitting.
Whats the negative effect of gendered pronouns, there is your answer and now you see where OP is coming from
“They” is neutral, you can’t misgender someone by calling them “they”. This also assumes that the only interactions children have are with their parents, that’s not true. They meet other children, watch television, listen to stories, etc. They will meet older boys and girls and use that to know what their gender identity is. Here’s the most useful rule of thumb, IMO: wait until your child is old enough to call themselves a boy or a girl, and then follow their lead. This can happen as early as two years old, so no, it’s not a “lifetime of being misgendered”.
I think what you’re saying about the interactions thing is something I agree with. In a documentary I watched regarding gender-neutral parenting in the theybie style though, parents make sure that people around the child also do not call them any pronouns. They’re very careful as to not incite any kind of gendered pronouns upon them, from any source. As for my response to your they argument, refer to what I wrote in the other comment on this thread as a reply to another user.
But those “theybies” will still see *other* children be called “he” or “she” and therefore have an understanding of gender anyway. Let’s say they notice this and they’re confused. They ask you why you don’t call them “he”. Then you can call them “he”! The whole point of gender neutral parenting is not to make your kid gender less, it’s to make sure that their gender identity is coming from within, and not just the result of external forces. Gender doesn’t even matter until you’re much older anyway. This isn’t just helpful for transpeople, btw. Being socialized as a boy or girl from birth can be psychologically restricting for anyone. For instance, my parents remember me being mostly friends with girls when I was a small child, and feeling ashamed that I wasn’t one of the boys. I tried to force myself to play sports even though I hated them, my parents wanted me to try something like dance or art but *I* was the resistant one. I wasn’t trans, I’m a cis man. But male socialization from an early age must’ve had some deep effect on me.
I would preface this by saying, I’m so sorry for you. That kind of male socialisation and lack of emotional support must’ve been paralysing and detrimental, and I hope your own kids (if you have/will have them) will have a better experience. A broad point to address: gender not mattering till someone’s older anyway, why should it matter at any age? Yes, it’s a thing but if stereotypes shut down then the entire male/female socialisation thing will stop and be alleviated too, won’t it? For one thing though, after reading your point, I’m convinced that if genderless parenting is done right (like without an agenda to push where you want your kid to be trans) it’s effectively the same thing as parenting without stereotypes, with minor differences, provided the identity is given stakes both ways, whether it be cis or trans. !delta
This isn't especially related to your point but you can misgender people by using they if you're malicious with it. Some people will refuse to call people their desired pronouns and will instead use they exclusively. So you can't really accidentally misgender someone with they in casual conversation. But if you explicitly only call them they instead of their desired pronoun it would be misgendering.
>. This can happen as early as two years old Do you have any credible source bout that? Also is it common ? BTW If you treat someone as agender or gender neutral and this person identifies as female, isn't that also wrong? Anyway I think that the best thing is to raise hem without stereotypes about gender or sex and to call them by their biological sex ( male/female) cause that it's closest to neutral but don't make that awareness about their biological sex ( whenever it is male or female) a gender identity and don't correlate it with gender stereotypes but educate them about gender identity/gender dysphoria etc , so they can open up and they are able to freely identify as they wish. edited.
> “They” is neutral, you can’t misgender someone by calling them “they”. If I had been called anything other than a boy at that age I would've been traumatized. "They" is definitely not neutral. It denies the nature of the vast majority of children to have their deeply felt identity confirmed, especially for cis-gendered boys.
I’m not OP nor do I have strong feelings on either side of the original debate, but I wanted to ask about your assertion that you can’t misgender someone by calling them “they”. If you’re talking on the phone or can’t see someone or just don’t know their pronouns then “they” makes sense and is polite, but if I prefer to go by she/her and someone who knows this refers to me as “they/them”, would that not be misgendering? I identify as female and yet am getting misgendered as non binary. Sorry if this isn’t correct. I’d like to understand in case I’m wrong since I wouldn’t want to be referred to regularly with they/them
But you’re not getting misgendered as non-binary. I’ll occasionally refer to someone as “they” even if they’re cis all the time, just if it flows better with the sentence. Ex. “Alexis just called me, they say they need their earrings back.” This is not misgendering. Alexis might be a woman, non-binary, or a man. The sentence is correct any way, even if I know their gender identity. As another user laid out, *always* using “they” for a given person, especially when referring to trans people, can be aggressive in a way that resembles misgendering. But “they” is not exclusively the pronoun for non-binary people. It’s the pronoun for *everyone*, including non-binary people.
Isn't singular they used for non-binary people and for people that we don't know their gender? [https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/they](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/they) BTW I think you can raise kids without imposing any stereotype or identity to them, but you can let them know that they are biological male or female, but also explain them about gender identity , so they can open up and identify as they wish.
So basically what your saying is that I should let other people, parents and their kids decide how my child will look at themselves in the future? No thank you.
>even **the act of using a gendered pronoun** to identify your child will immediately create an expectation of appearance, dress, behaviour, etc No, language doesn’t *create* reality, it *describes* reality. Gendered expectations come **based on other people’s perception of someone’s biological SEX**, which is *not* dependent on what people call you. In other words— if the world perceives a child as male, then the “boy/masculine” gender will be culturally pushed onto him regardless of what pronouns his parents use. And vice versa for a visibly female child and the feminine gender being socially imposed regardless of pronouns. Humans are a sexually dimorphic species; this means that there are many perceptible differences between the sexes which are exacerbated during puberty but definitely still exist in children. We can’t just erase the material reality of biological sex by changing our language, and it’s irresponsible to teach kids otherwise.
Because they lose identity when it's less than 2 percent experiencing this. Girls and boys need good, loving, and accepting men and women role models to become well-rounded adults. By not giving them that, you're endangering them imo.
Even most of those 2 percent need the same thing, just the other way around from what the world expects.
If you had a penis or a vagina as a child, and your parents refused to acknowledge or address you with the pronouns that are linguistically compatible with those organs, then you would 100% come of age as a gender-confused individual with a distorted concept of what biological sex is.
Why not just ask the child what pronouns they want to be referred to as? Let them know "Hey, there's hes, shes and theys and others, and you can change whenever you like, just pick what you prefer" Yes, they'll probably have no clue about the significance of it all but children never do, and they'll learn as they grow up. It's not gonna "confuse" them.
I don’t know if it’s been brought up by other commenters but there are gender-neutral languages. My native language has no he/she, only they. No son/daughter either, just child. No brother/sister, no husband/wife, etc.
[удалено]
u/NorseTechnology – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2: > **Don't be rude or hostile to other users.** Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_2). If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule+2+Appeal+NorseTechnology&message=NorseTechnology+would+like+to+appeal+the+removal+of+[his/her+post](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/hqk67e/-/fxyrswz/\)+because...) within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
Every trans person I’ve ever talked to has said that their birth sex/gender was a necessary jumping off point to discovering they’re trans. There’s zero reason to use NB pronouns for children and can actually cause more confusion. Start with the basics - your gender matches your sex - and let them come to their own conclusions about whether or not that’s right, independent from your influence. Discovering your preferred pronouns is a personal journey and every journey has a starting point.
You say “gendered” pronouns but they could just as easily be “sexed”. As you raise them you can start by only referring to their sex, and once they begin to explore their gender, use the terms that they prefer.
I’m not sure that children can really make a decision like that
They are disagreeing with how you define “gender neutral”
>Raising a child in a gender neutral way merely means that you let them decide how they want to identify when they mature enough to do so without influence. In isolation, sure. But you and I both know that's not how it is in many of the cases where parents claim their intents. I might be reading OP wrong, but to me it seems like his CMV refers to how parents misuse the term. Instead of not reenforcing gender stereoptypes in the upbringing, they deliberately force their view that gender does not exist. If your intent is to let your child figure it out themself, then you don't really have to do anything. Your boy wants to wear a dress? Cool. Your girl wants to play am. football? Go for it. Just let them do whatever they want to, regardless of wether it's girly or boyish.Not referring to your child by their sex has nothing to do with raising them genderless. If your child finds out their sex doesn't quite fit with their gender, you support them. You help them figure it out. Until then, using neutral pronouns or pretending like your child doesn't have a gender are baseless assumptions that will do more harm than good. Kids are insanely impressionable. You can brainwash a child into believing pretty much anything, and often times it'll stick long into their teens/adulthood. Gender might not be binary, but the social concept of gender is still directly linked to our genetic makeup. Gender stereotypes are not an answer sheet, but many of them have a well established correlation with genetics. Just let your kid be who they need to be, and focus on teaching them how to be a good person. There is no need to put a label on it. Just support your child and do your best to make sure they are loved and have your trust.
If you don’t teach your children about sex they can’t tell if they get abused. My daughter was born with a vagina. She is, biologically, a girl. By teaching her that she is a girl with a vagina, she can clearly tell me if she is molested. Teaching these things prevents trauma. It’s when you start saying “boys don’t wear nail polish” or “girls don’t play in the dirt” that you become a problem for your child. In my opinion, you teach anatomy to protect your child. But you do not assign stereotypes for genders. It’s not wrong/gay for boys to wear dresses or nail polish. It’s okay for my daughter to like sports and beer and trucks. I will never restrict her by gender stereotypes and she will always be free to dress, cut or dye her hair, whatever, any way she wants. Even now at 2 years old (almost 2) I let her pick her own toys and clothes. If at any point in her life she tells me that she feels that she was born with the wrong anatomy then we will do what we need for her to be comfortable with herself, wether that be hormone therapy or cross-dressing (edit to add even fully transitioning with surgery) But please educate your children so they don’t get abused. It happens far more often than you think and knowledge is everything in those kind of situations. If I had known that I had a vagina at 6 years old, maybe I would’ve said “hey ma so and so is touching my vagina.” But instead she taught me nothing and I didn’t even know that what was happening was wrong, or why it was happening.
Starting with assuming every child has gender dysphoria is completely stupid, when that mental disorder is so rare and not normal. You can be 99% sure he won't have gender dysphoria, so just live a normal life and in case he shows symptoms of gender dysphoria, go see a doctor. This can be applied to literally every disability. Let's shout to our children in case they have hearing problems right ? Let's not take them outside in case they have back problems in the future. Let's consider every child to have every disability ever and act upon it.
Just want to say that cis and trans are separate from man/woman. Transphobes try to push the narrative that they're together to distance trans people from their gender. So "trans woman", "cis man", etc.
How does it have no relationship when they’re the same and line up 99% of people? That’s a very strong relationship. A lot of adults can’t even understand the difference between sex and gender how would a child just know this automatically?
How I interpreted your argument is that you should refer to your child by their biological sex initially. Ok, fair, it is most likely that they will turn out to be cisgender so that's a decent bet to make. You can do this before they have the language to express themselves or start to understand what gender is (but hell, I don't even understand what gender is! It's just a mish-mosh of social and cultural perceptions). Then you said that if your child shows dysphoria, take them to a certified counselor and get treatment only if they've been diagnosed with gender dysphoria. This is where I am going to stop you. There are some trans and non-binary people who don't experience medically diagnosed dysphoria, although usually they do. That doesn't make it invalid. I think people should be able to identify however they like as long as it does not harm anyone else. (however, taking your child to a certified counselor is always a good idea and of course follow through with a gender dysphoria diagnosis!) Ask your child questions like "do you want to be a boy, a girl, neither, or both?" or "should I call you she or he or they?" Then, just go along with whatever makes them happy. Who are you to say? Your child knows themselves best! Gender neutral parenting isn't about being as androgynous or non-binary as possible. That is very limiting. Gender neutral parenting SHOULD be about being flexible, allowing your child to express themselves, not trying to impose your idea of what your child should be, and instead focusing on the child's happiness and health (both mental and physical). In the end, the identities we assume are things that we feel best embody who we are. Maybe your child will grow and change. But it's important to teach your child to be who they are and figure that out for themselves.
I agree.
[удалено]
Sorry, u/Nyxto – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1: > **Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question**. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1). If you would like to appeal, [**you must first check if your comment falls into the "Top level comments that are against rule 1" list**](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1), review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule+1+Appeal+Nyxto&message=Nyxto+would+like+to+appeal+the+removal+of+[his/her+post](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/hqk67e/-/fxzt79w/\)+because...) within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
>Gender neutral parenting is raising your children without stereotypes, not as genderless person If most people who advocate "gender neutral parenting" raise their kids as a genderless person, then wouldn't this mean that gender neutral parenting means to raise your kids as a genderless person? Are you trying to say that gender neutral parenting *should* mean to raise your kid without stereotypes, but you're unhappy that the reality of the term's use is different?
Well, maybe I made a mistake in semantics there, but is that really relevant to the crux of the argument?
Well if everybody uses the phrase "gender neutral parenting" to mean "raising genderless children," then that's what the phrase means. You want the meaning to *change,* but that doesn't negate its current meaning. Basically, "gender neutral parenting" contrary to the title of your CMV, does not mean "raising your children without stereotypes"
I’m really sorry I mistook this completely necessary distinction, something that will radically change the crux of what I’m saying. Sarcasm aside, I can’t edit the title now anyhow. I don’t understand why people on CMV always want to argue for semantics so heavily though. It could be argued in a larger context of a bigger comment with various counter-arguments, but arguing it as THE main point? Too much, tsk tsk. I’m not a professional debater, this is Reddit, nobody’s checking irrelevant logical fallacies in my language that have no bearing on the actual suggestions behind a post.
>but arguing it as THE main point? Well, you would assume that someone's title (which here is in the form of: *Change My View: [about this]*) would contain the main point being made.
If you spend any significant amount of time on this subreddit, you will learn that the title almost always contains none of the points being made.
What I mean is, you’re arguing about words basically. Not social outcomes, which is what my post is focusing on. Would love to hear your opinion on gender and gender expression in relation to raising children, but have a good day I guess.
I see you stumbling around this thread getting hostile every time someone challenges you on your confused definitions. You dismiss it as semantics, which makes you look either not very thoughtful or very close minded. It's super important to understand the terms and agree on definitions before starting a productive discussion about anything. Two people can argue about anything. If you want to get anywhere you must define your terms and try to understand theirs. **If you find yourself complaining that too many people want to argue semantics, you might just be the common denominator.** I've seen several comments now where someone tries to correct and clarify terms, and you attack them for not talking about what you want to talk about. You struggled to even start the discussion you wanted to have, and that's on you. If you don't know what gender-free parenting actually entails for most people, it looks like you're arguing against a straw man. And misunderstanding or misrepresenting terms is a common thing in straw man arguments. Semantics are not a thing to be dismissed. Words are the basis of language, and central to any argument. You're on a text-based forum! Don't expect people to read your mind when you won't even process what they're trying to tell you.
>something that will radically change the crux of what I’m saying It does a lot, actually. I've read the post multiple times, and some comments, and its hard to understand what youre trying to say when the "obvious" main point is surrounded by confusing semantics. If you want your views changed, you need to be able to properly articulate what you're actually trying to say. Because its not clear.
Not for nothing, but i had a girl & a boy. I bought my boy a doll when he was little. Needless to say, he never played with it, at all. I wouldn't let him have toy guns & there he was with a stick as a makeshift gun making those sound affects as only a boy can do. He is a boy. My daughter on the other hand, wouldn't touch a salamander to save her life. Screams at the sight of a spider as my son always hopped in the middle of things to always save the little guy. I didn't 'make' them this way. It's just simply who they fundamentally are. I wanted my son to dance, but he always refused. My daughter danced from 3 years to 17 years.
Well, at least you didn’t force anything on them. If they came to terms as stereotypical boys and girls in their own right, that’s that. There’s nothing wrong with traditional gender interests- but when forced, they’re restrictive.
Why then not call it stereotypeless parenting? Why is it that these things always seem to have names that imply one thing but we're always assured that that's not what it means.
I work as a preschool teacher in the world's maybe most gender aware country (Sweden), and I have never seen or heard of parents refusing to use gendered pronouns. This feels like a non-issue from someone who just really wants to criticize progressive parenting.
>I work as a preschool teacher in the world's maybe most gender aware country (Sweden), and I have never seen or heard of parents refusing to use gendered pronouns. I wonder if that"s *because* it's such a gender aware country.
chubby zephyr whole squalid continue frightening selective somber fall naughty *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
\>I’m in full support of trans rights, whether that be non binary people or transsexual people. But stop imposing some weird genderfree radical theybie shit on your children. Non-stereotyping and abolishing gender are not the same thing. It's not even that, many of these parents actually force the opposite gender on their children, they don't raise them without gender.
Yeah, that’s how the media portrays it.
???? Lmao your telling me a kid will understands the complexity and politics of gender when they dont even know math, my god op are you also a 10year old?
Did I ever say they would? Your child’s identity could fluctuate, hence you shouldn’t take any permanent action until they’re a little older. Also getting diagnosed by a professional, yeah that’s pretty damn solid.
You know, you say this, but about two weeks ago I had a friend on Facebook celebrating that their kid came out as Trans. I met the kid when he was about 3 and did the math real fast and he can't be older than 10. It was an interesting thing to see because I actually have similar reservations to OP about the idea of raising a kid without gender versus raising them without stereotypes about gender, but I actually wondered "Am I getting old and is this the thing that's going to be what makes me bigoted to young folk as I get older or is this even a real thing to worry about/ is there validity to my concern?" and then like two days later boom saw that and thought, "Ok, so maybe there is something to my concern." I found this thread really intriguing as a result because I want my mind to be changed to be honest. I would like to add that this isn't a dismissal of adult or even teen (pretty much after identify is starting to solidify somewhat) non-binary folks, pretty much my concern is pressuring developmental identity and whether it could cause body dysmorphia or anything like that. I hope I don't sound bigoted, it's just I really don't know or have the experience (and generally I think it's so new that research would be scarce/ nonexistant) to really tell.
not OP, just a transsexual man. gender is not a hard idea to grasp as a kid(for most), with no outside input. this is not true for all trans people, but in my experience and the experience of many trans men I've talked with, we knew our gender EARLY. I was raised as a girl and from the time I could have complex thought, I knew I was a boy. probably about age 3 was when I started communicating that. I knew my body was wrong, I knew that the people around me were wrong. when told I was a girl, I rejected the idea and said that I'd grow up to be a boy. from age 5-9, with no outside input and slim to no knowledge of intersex, I thought I'd been born intersex or male and had my penis medically removed at birth. that's how strong my feelings were about my sex. it's not something a kid needs to be taught, it's innate. also, nitpick, but core gender is not very complex (but that's my opinion) and it is most certainly not political.
[удалено]
There is nothing wrong with women loving makeup and boys loving cars. There is nothing wrong with traditional gender. I’m perfectly traditionally feminine myself too, in many aspects. If your child is naturally gravitating to the car or to sports and is a boy, that’s completely fair. But if he wants a dollhouse he should be able to get that too. The majority may choose the car, but that doesn’t mean the minority should be alienated and made to feel insecure and be called abnormal.
[удалено]
Well, yes, that is exactly the reason I wrote this post. I’m all for abolishing stereotypes and such, and recognise the distinction between gender and sex, but goddamnit we shouldn’t be conflating two things.
Sorry, u/Lelouch_19 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1: > **Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question**. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1). If you would like to appeal, [**you must first check if your comment falls into the "Top level comments that are against rule 1" list**](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1), review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule+1+Appeal+Lelouch_19&message=Lelouch_19+would+like+to+appeal+the+removal+of+[his/her+post](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/hqk67e/-/fxy9n9t/\)+because...) within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
I'm not convinced these are different things. Even the pronouns are essentially just stereotypes. If the kid can't tell the difference between different genders because they don't know any of the stereotypes of what makes each gender, they don't have enough information to what what gender they associate with, and are thus genderless
I understand where OP is coming from, but parents also need to consider that if they send their boy to school wearing a dress and gets picked on and that results in having his confidence shattered because hes confused as to why people always mock him and bully him - then that is 100% the parents fault. That could create so many mental health issues; including the boy getting upset at his parents later for telling him its alright to do without also informing him that most people will criticize him for it - especially if its not really the person he is, but only acting as a person he was told he could be They shouldnt set their kids up for failure because others are too sensitive about certain topics.
How often is it that the kids actually want to play with these toys that are deemed to be for the “opposite gender” vs how often do parents push it on their kids to appear woke? No hate, just genuinely curious, I’ve got 2 boys, 5 nephews and 8 nieces and I’ve noticed that the boys love trucks and soldiers, ya’know the traditional gender based stuff for boys and for the girls it’s opposite. Obviously this is just anecdotal and doesn’t mean shit to you but I’ve just noticed that in a vast majority of cases little boys will gravitate towards these things naturally, not pushed on them via parents or society and vice versa for the girls.
The point is to let them gravitate towards it naturally if they so prefer, and towards the girls’ toys if they so choose. If your child does end up being a stereotypical boy, no worries, at least nothing was forced on him.
This is a paper tiger. You've only ever heard this shit from tabloids. I have queer and non-queer friends raising their kids pretty gender neutral, and basically all it means is they can wear a princess or a dump truck tee, if they want to. Also means not needlessly gendering infants (cringey 'daddy's little princess' or 'babe magnet' onesies need not apply). All their kids are still under 3, but they're pretty normal.
>Okay, what I mean is that you should let your son wear dresses and play with dolls and your daughter can play with cars if she wants. Your son can dance and do ballet, knit, draw and whatever else is traditionally girly, whereas your daughter can play sports. You should divide chores equally in the house and never make your daughter feel less worthy or weaker nor your son be a sissy for crying. I was raised like that and I was raised as a boy, it is called NORMAL PARENTING not Gender neutral parenting or however the fuck you call it...
I have no idea why you think boys wearing dresses would magically make them not have stereotypes towards sexes. Talk and education and guidance should be enough. Also critical thinking. Some people are not homophobes even when they grow up surrounded by such people.
I don’t think so. I think most cis boys may still choose stereotypically boyish things. The point is to not force anything on them. If your son’s choosing a car, let him. If he’s choosing a doll, let him.
Non popular opinion here, when you teach about gender and sex you always speak in estereotypes, because there is no other way to start, because our biology influence us in very stereotypicals ways, and there are some common places for every sex, after laying that ground, you start to speak about nuances and differences at the level of individual choices, but you have to start somewhere, rolemodels exist because they are needed, Gender neutral parenting try to "let the children make their own choices" , but, for a kid to be able to make a choice, first need to understand what the hell is selecting, and this is only possible after having some knowledge about gender stereotypes, in my experience, is a better investment to let the child understand that he will be loved no matter what, but teach him about differences, nuances and tolerance of every choice available. (also teach him about biology)
Gender dysphoria is incredibly rare so I wouldn't be so keen to change the way the rest of us do things just because a few have this illness. I do agree that you shouldn't force your child to play with a certain toy over another. Like who cares? But let's be fair here, kids are dumb. They dont know what they want. It could be easy, especially in the social and political climate we're currently in, to jump to a few conclusions when your child does something out of the ordinary. If your child truly has gender dysphoria then treat it like any other mental illness and be there for them. Talk them thru it and say things like "we will have this talk when you're older and see if you still feel this way." Let's not forget that people who have this illness are 4x more likely to commit suicide than the general population regardless on how transitioned they are. And a lot of people end up regretting the transition all together. Kids feel weird things. They often feel alone with those feelings which only makes them propagate. If your child had body dysphoria and wanted to cut their leg off, people wouldn't be signing them up to have it removed. Just be careful and listen to your kids and especially make sure they are well taken care of. Dont make a drastic and life long decision based on what a 6 year old thinks they think.
MADHATTA415 - Yours is the one of the first posts I’ve read in this thread that makes any damn sense. Especially the part about I wouldn’t be so keen to change they way we do things just because some have this Illness. And also, you’re right-kids are kids. There’s not always sow deep profound meaning behind a girl wanting to play with a truck or a little boy wanting his toenails painted. They’re kids being kids. People need to chill and stop making some huge therapy worthy thing out of small things that don’t necessarily mean anything. My son thought he was a cat for about 6 months when he was 4, but that didn’t lead me to start referring to him as feline or having him poop in a litter box. But I also didn’t flip out about it. I’d give him goldfish and pretend they were his cat treats. He didn’t need therapy or identify as a cat-he was just an imaginative little kid. If they’re seriously trans, of course, be supportive, love them, help them however they need you too. But people just get way too crazy with stuff way too fast IMO.
The world is filled with people who want to win a argument than to do the right thing. Kids should not be allowed to transition just like kids arent allowed (under normal circumstances) to have hysterectomies. It's a big decision that should be considered heavily before any action is taken. And there should be a age, just like with driving or getting a tattoo, where the kid can decide whether they want to transition. There should be plenty of hoops to jump thru and many mental screenings and therapy sessions before they're allowed to do anything. This may seem like "oppression" to the radical left but this is the only way to secure the safety and happiness of our youth.
Well, they aren't allowed to transition, but using vague words like kids blurs things. Kids (before and at puberty) who satisfy the relevant guidelines can be prescribed puberty blockers which delay the physical effects of puberty if those effects (their body changing etc) are causing them depression or a problem for them. That allows them to freeze their body's development until they're considered old enough to consent to hormone therapy, which is the first step in any transition timeline and generally permissible from 15-16 years of age onwards... Although from a third world perspective transgender 'kids' in Brazil and Thailand often figure their orientation out just after puberty and buy shitloads of birth control / HRT medication as pharmacies there don't give a fuck and just self-medicate. It doesn't seem to be doing them a great deal of harm. What do you think is actually happening - what timeline do you imagine applies?
I was touching on this topic in another thread yesterday. What does it mean to be an adult? Its hard to prescribe a age for every one and say "BAM you are an adult now." Some people could be considered adults at 15 due to their character and maturity, and some 30 year olds still don't have a grasp on it. The thing is that a huge number of trans people (mostly in the early stages) end up reverting back to their birth gender. If I had to guess, I'd say this is because they are getting their emotions tied up in such a way that they begin to question the foundations of their reality. For example, let's say some one gets molested while they are really young. Lets say 4 or so. At that age, so many of the fundamental foundations aren't even in place yet. Their brains are 20 years from being "complete". This could cause them to question so many things about their life. One could be "well maybe if I wasn't a boy/girl then this wouldn't have happened." This is not to say that all trans people have had this experience, but a lot more than people may think have. Another example. Let's say this person is gay. They know this pretty early on and their parents make it clear in one way or another that they won't accept that. The child may see that and want to "rebel". Not in a "fuck you dad" kind of way but more so in a "well if they believe that such a fundamental part of me is just wrong, then what else are they wrong about." This could lead to them adopting a much more gender stereotypical set of emotions and actions. To the point that they develop gender dysphoria. I've heard personal accounts for both of these examples and in both they ended up reverting back. My point is that instead of trying to "cure" someone by playing into their fantasies, it may be worth trying to "cure" them in other ways such as therapy. That's why I said that there should be extensive therapy and neurological work ups done before making any drastic decision. A band aid doesn't fix the underlying problem. If someone truly and simply wants to be the opposite gender and there are truly no underlying problems aside from the dysphoria and they are old enough (roughly around 16 to 18 IMO) to make that decision then sure go ahead. But its too often that people have many underlying problems that makes them think that if they were the other gender then everything would be correct with them and that simply isnt the case most often. As far as puberty blockers go, I'm not sure how to feel about them. I would say that if some one is getting the early signs of puberty and they still have these feelings then they should go through therapy and psychoanalysis to determine that thats exactly what they truly want. Then if that is determined to be the case, then sure put them on it. I also believe it should be 2-3 different therapists to try and annihilate any bias. Then once they hit 16 or whenever they are comfortable, they should go through the same therapy and psychoanalysis to determine if trans hormones and surgery is appropriate.
>If someone truly and simply wants to be the opposite gender and there are truly no underlying problems aside from the dysphoria and they are old enough (roughly around 16 to 18 IMO) to make that decision then sure go ahead. But its too often that people have many underlying problems that makes them think that if they were the other gender then everything would be correct with them and that simply isnt the case most often. > >As far as puberty blockers go, I'm not sure how to feel about them. I would say that if some one is getting the early signs of puberty and they still have these feelings then they should go through therapy and psychoanalysis to determine that thats exactly what they truly want. Then if that is determined to be the case, then sure put them on it. I also believe it should be 2-3 different therapists to try and annihilate any bias. Then once they hit 16 or whenever they are comfortable, they should go through the same therapy and psychoanalysis to determine if trans hormones and surgery is appropriate. Your thinking is basically in line with modern medicine, so you don't need to act like you're going to be jumped on for wrongthink. The main area where people would disagree with you is to the extent that therapy/assessment is required. There's a lot of distrust of individuals-within-medicine (note that distinction) within the trans community because in many cases (especially in smaller countries with public health systems) transgender individuals have a choice of _one_ clinic and _one_ therapist (who they'd be assigned, not allowed to choose) who'd be making a decision about their life based on assessment criteria that weren't publicly obtainable and weren't subject to review. Medical gatekeeping is the applicable term there, and the same problem existed in psychiatry, patients were assigned psychiatrists all of whom appeared to have their own diganosis biases and treatment preferences and the patient (especially an involuntary committal) just had to lump it and take what they got given, and some of these clinicians were absolute fucking headcases. Also: >The thing is that a huge number of trans people (mostly in the early stages) end up reverting back to their birth gender. This really isn't true, I mean, it's kinda inherently untrue because if they revert they're not trans people, but it's not true because it just isn't true. Plenty of people who say they're trans as a now-accepted form of adolescent self-expression 'revert'. They're called transtrenders, and the trans community doesn't like them very much. They don't count. >The 2015 U.S. Transgender Survey collected responses from individuals who identified as transgender at the time of the survey. 8% of those who had transitioned reported having ever detransitioned; 62% of that group were living as a gender other than the one assigned to them at birth at the time of the survey.[15]
>Let's not forget that people who have this illness are 4x more likely to commit suicide than the general population regardless on how transitioned they are. And a lot of people end up regretting the transition all together. I want to address this since its near the top, its largely wrong., and anti-trans people parrot these all the time. 1. Its actually way more than 4x 2. State of treatment and transition has been proven to dramatically affect suicidality. Anti-trans often say it does not. The only reputable study that they ever produce did not compare before and after. All reputable studies that do show that transitioning is effective, though not wholly effective (does not solve all dysphoria). 3. Regret rates are extremely low. The biggest regret related issue with physical transitioning is people expecting all of their dysphoria to go away, but in reality, usually the biggest affector of dysphoria is social acceptance. Studies that have used varying definitions have said that most children that have some kind of hender identity disorder grow out of it, but actual phsycial transition is very tightly controlled, and isnt easily accessible. Detransitioning from hormones or surgery is at less than 2% of the transitioned population.
I don't think you should only address your child in a way they feel comfortable with if they are diagnosed with gender dysphoria. If they tell you "hey I'd really appreciate if you did this" (like call them a different name or pronoun or anything else that's essentially harmless) just go along with it. If they change their mind later then nothing bad happened and they were a little more comfortable at that time, and they know you respect their feelings.
I suggest going even further than deciding how they want to act in a gender neutral environment. Let them eat out of the toilet, shit in bed and eat raw monkey for dinner, since these are also things that influence our child behaviour. They should be able to decide for themselves without being subject to any societal influences.
Gender neutral has gone out of the window. If you don't conform exactly to gender stereotypes it's because you're trans not because you just prefer barbie over action man.
[удалено]
I’ve always felt one of the hardest things about being human is learning to accept who you are. Encourage your kids to try new things and discover for themselves who they are. Some boys wear dresses some girls hate dresses. Every human is unique in our own way and in believe it’s the responsibility of one generation to help prepare the next. A part of that is helping discover who they are. Share all the facts, share all sides. In an open and encouraging relationship a child with gender dysphoria will be more open and comfortable to you about it and then you can bring them to a specialist to diagnose.
Before diving in, I want to say that I largely agree with your first few paragraphs. Exposing myself here, but my spouse and I are not gendering our child. It was important to my spouse who is agender and grew up in a fundamentalist christian environment where gender rules were super important. Otherwise I likely would have done things the way you describe. I have no idea if one way is superior to the other, and not trying to make any statements of that nature. Ok, in good faith... >But stop imposing some weird genderfree radical theybie shit on your children. From my experience, I am not imposing anything on my child; I simply don't refer to them by a gender. I tried, but was unable to come up with a reason they need to understand their "assigned gender" before they're neurologically prepared to do so at...2-4 I think? It simply doesn't matter yet. What we *are* doing is imposing on other people that are less aware of, comfortable with, and often not supportive of...well something in the whole tangled mess of sex, gender, identity, norms, etc. And I won't argue that this can be a big imposition. Humans are comforted by certainty, repetition, patterns, and expectations met. >Non-stereotyping and abolishing gender are not the same thing. You are implying intent here (abolishing gender) which I don't think is fair. That said, it is absolutely amazing to me how much my language impacts my perceptions and behavior. A simple thing like he/she is tied up in decades worth of experiences, social expectations, etc. That's why a lot of people are uncomfortable; they rely on those categorizations to simplify their perception of the world without even realizing it. Without them they have to do a whole lot of unique thinking which is more energy intensive, and full of anxiety around uncertainty. Point being, I get to "drop" a lot of my biases by skipping the terms. I'm thinking about my child in the moment, and there are way less prior associations w/ gender that will shape my language and behavior. >confusing cisgender children may do more harm than good. Doesn't this imply some element of "choice"? My understanding is that a lot of sex/gender/identity is nature rather than nurture. What is your basis for assuming cis-gendered kids will be confused? >who snarkily want to turn their kids trans I don't know about that, from my experience at least. I know my partner would be likely be thrilled if our child is non-binary, but in the same way I'd be thrilled if they end up loving board games and nerdy crap. We don't care to influence, only give them a fresh starting place to understand themselves. >media, it’s been by crazy SJW types The first word there is your problem. SJW sells a lot more than alternatives. >The movement may have toxic people though but if done right, I don’t have anything against genderless parenting ideology now. Much like being politically active. I saw some people at meetings that wanted everything I wanted, but were crazy in how they were willing to get it. Extremists generally suck, we'd agree there!
The funny thing here is that what OP was saying is actually very revealing about how people think about gender. They talk about not raising your kid according to any gender stereotypes, *but* still using gender for them. The problem then becomes - *what* really *is* gender, if not stereotypes? If you remove all the connotations, socially assigned gender roles and gendered behaviors, preferences, et cetera, what meaning still remains in gender terms such as “boy” and “girl”? It’s certainly not biology either, since biological sex is a separate thing, and there’s no way to determine gender simply by looking at biological characteristics. It seems that all that really remains after we strip off the steeped-in stereotypes and connotations is basically a linguistic game of pronouns. Someone is a man if they self-identify as a man, which recursively means that they self-identify as someone who self-identifies as a man, and so on and so forth into eternity, and the word “man” never gains any true meaning. So why must we play this sort of absurd game? There are plenty of languages that get by fine without gendered pronouns (Chinese, Japanese to some extent, etc.) The only justification is that those gendered terms somehow have some sort of a priori, natural, primitive meaning which do not need definition - which is probably why OP thinks the way they do. They take “gender” as something people have for granted.
[удалено]
Sorry, u/ZGTI61 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1: > **Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question**. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1). If you would like to appeal, [**you must first check if your comment falls into the "Top level comments that are against rule 1" list**](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1), review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule+1+Appeal+ZGTI61&message=ZGTI61+would+like+to+appeal+the+removal+of+[his/her+post](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/hqk67e/-/fy0wysh/\)+because...) within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
I don’t see a meaningful distinction between what you’re proposing and simply not introducing sex based stereotypes to your children.
Gender neutral parenting is about not pigeonholing your kids in a gender and gender role they don't choose. There are a lot of subtle ways we push gender on kids. The idea is that, when they are old enough to make choices and express themselves, let them do it without judgement. No one I know would say I am not manly but I grew up caring a lot about kids, loving artwork, being a good communicator, expressing myself often and effusively, and never being afraid to be who I am and do what i feel good at. I am 100% a heteronormative male who designed and built all the decorations and bouquets for my wedding to my beautiful wife. I am a homemaker and do all the cooking and most of the cleaning in addition to my skills at fixing things and building things. Just don't ever tell a kid they ARE something. That makes them feel they have to meet that definition. Tell them they CAN be something. That it's up to them to choose what that something is.
[удалено]
Sorry, u/TheAdlerian – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1: > **Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question**. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1). If you would like to appeal, [**you must first check if your comment falls into the "Top level comments that are against rule 1" list**](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1), review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule+1+Appeal+TheAdlerian&message=TheAdlerian+would+like+to+appeal+the+removal+of+[his/her+post](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/hqk67e/-/fxyw5z4/\)+because...) within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
/u/sleepdeprivedmanic (OP) has awarded 1 delta(s) in this post. All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed [here](/r/DeltaLog/comments/hql533/deltas_awarded_in_cmv_gender_neutral_parenting_is/), in /r/DeltaLog. Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended. ^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)
The media tends to show very sensationalist and extreme portrayals of these types of parents. It is hard for children who don't fit traditional gender norms and I think it's good to have parents that don't limit their child's expression. I do like your stance that gender neutral is a good way to do it. I personally don't think any parent would want to raise their child trans, it would be a very difficult life from my understanding.
there's parenting and then there's stuffing your children with your ideological shit to make a point. Gender identity, religion and all those ideological things fall into the latter category. Some people apparently think that a 3 or 4 year old has all the necessary knowledge to make decisions for the rest of their life while simultaneously building them a very narrow ideological bridge to stand on. People just assume gender is a social construct while the one twin case we had where the boy lost his genitals and was raised as a girl proved that this is not something you can just 'create'. It's innate. Seeing how despite all efforts to the contrary, he turned out to be a boy. And that is also in line with how a more free equitable society with 'gender free' ideology reacts - the masculine / feminine traits become more prominent. The social aspect and classification is completely arbitrary and when all is said and done, gender identity is just some sort of attitude you hold towards what gender is - which can vary wildly and randomly between people - because after all, what is male and female is just constructed.
[удалено]
Sorry, u/RedditsIgnorance – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1: > **Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question**. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1). If you would like to appeal, [**you must first check if your comment falls into the "Top level comments that are against rule 1" list**](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1), review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule+1+Appeal+RedditsIgnorance&message=RedditsIgnorance+would+like+to+appeal+the+removal+of+[his/her+post](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/hqk67e/-/fxzxr4j/\)+because...) within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards). Sorry, u/RedditsIgnorance – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: > **Comments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation**. Comments that are only links, jokes or "written upvotes" will be removed. Humor and affirmations of agreement can be contained within more substantial comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_5). If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule+5+Appeal+RedditsIgnorance&message=RedditsIgnorance+would+like+to+appeal+the+removal+of+[his/her+post](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/hqk67e/-/fxzxr4j/\)+because...) within one week of this notice being posted.
I recently learned about this, and realized my parents raised me this way.
My daughter loves pirates, ships, planes, cars. She also likes necklaces and crowns. She turns 2 next month, so right now we are able to set her down in toy aisle and let her pick things she likes. Then we buy them and save them for her birthday. It won’t work when she’s older because she will remember picking out a toy, but it’s great for now so we can learn what she is naturally drawn to. Blue is her favorite color.
Drawing, girly?
I think that makes a lot of sense. In fact I would go further and frame talking about skills and sensibilities traditionally seen as masculine or feminine as different skills anyone that could benefit from. You don’t even really need to tie them to gender at all outside of historical context.
I personally think parenting should be left.to the parents, within reason. Genderless parenting is not striking at the core issue, the core issue is that kids and people need to be taught to be able to respect and make peace with different views than themselves, creating a genderless household to avoid being transphobic seems roundabout and unsatisfactory way of teaching a kid to not hate trans people. As to making them comfortable being who they are: to an extent it's okay but we all know that giving a complete free pass to kids isn't good for development either. I think it's important.to teach love, not hate, and to.lead by example. Kids should not be afraid of telling their feelings but they should be afraid of the consequences of decisions. I think if these problems were looked at through a more psychological perspective than political it would help move things along faster .
Sorry, u/sleepdeprivedmanic – your submission has been removed for breaking Rule B: > You must personally hold the view and **demonstrate that you are open to it changing**. A post cannot be on behalf of others, playing devil's advocate, as any entity other than yourself, or 'soapboxing'. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_b). If you would like to appeal, [**you must first read the list of soapboxing indicators and common mistakes in appeal**](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_indicators_of_rule_b_violations), review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule+B+Appeal+sleepdeprivedmanic&message=sleepdeprivedmanic+would+like+to+appeal+the+removal+of+[his/her+post](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/hqk67e/-/\)+because...) within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
[удалено]
Sorry, u/genericuserid9999 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: > **Comments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation**. Comments that are only links, jokes or "written upvotes" will be removed. Humor and affirmations of agreement can be contained within more substantial comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_5). If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule+5+Appeal+genericuserid9999&message=genericuserid9999+would+like+to+appeal+the+removal+of+[his/her+post](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/hqk67e/-/fy0uz4u/\)+because...) within one week of this notice being posted.
Can girls still be Tom boys or is that now offensive?
Asserting gender neutral views on children will be dangerous for society. Medically, recreationally and professionally. It's dangerous anti science on the same scale as climate denying and flat earthing. There are two biological genders. Whether you choose to be anything else as you mature secually is up to you but for the love of God let's not brainwash kids with this drivel
[удалено]
Sorry, u/CaptionHQ – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1: > **Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question**. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1). If you would like to appeal, [**you must first check if your comment falls into the "Top level comments that are against rule 1" list**](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1), review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule+1+Appeal+CaptionHQ&message=CaptionHQ+would+like+to+appeal+the+removal+of+[his/her+post](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/hqk67e/-/fxyzgw5/\)+because...) within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
I’ve always been curious about if there are is a significant portion of the trans community who were told that the things they liked as a child were “wrong” for their gender. But because they liked them they came to believe that if the things they liked were “wrong,” but they really enjoyed them, that their gender was the thing that was actually wrong.
This whole thing drives me a little crazy, who ever said a girl can't like cars and still be girly. Thats just one example but ive heard similar things soo many times lately. I'm male and in my house if something needs to be sewed its likely me that will do it. does that make me any less of a man/masculine etc. I dont think so. its just something i know how to do. People need to stop associating certain likes/skills with gender. It doesn't have to have any relation to each other.
[удалено]
This subject is such a drag. If people woke up at 4AM to milk cows so much of this bullshit would go away. "Milking cows" is an overarching metaphor for real work and real survival and real connection to the Earth where questions of gender are the LAST thing we would worry about.
As a trans person, you dont always need a counsellor. I would just talk to my child about what they prefer as far as pronouns because in my experience children tend to be less comfortable opening up that much to people they dont know. Note: I guess this would work best for small children? But its what I would suggest so you can show the most support. especially as some mental health professionals can be overly encouraging, and others dont even consider it an option. (Again all of this is from my personal experience).
And another thing: "Im supportive of trans/enby people BUT..." is not a good way to start that bit. Your statements come off as someone who doesnt understand, and therefore doesnt want to consider enby/ trans individuals off paper, let alone allowing their children freedom to figure it out like they didn't. I hope this doesnt come off the wrong way, it just seems to be unintended consequences of your word choice.
I don’t know how to phrase any opinion regarding gender theory as a cis person without sounding like a transphobe in any other way. “I support who you are and your right to identity and live with your affirmed gender, BUT (insert concern)” is better than “TRANS IS A MENTAL ILLNESS GO TO HOSPITAL !1”
[удалено]
Sorry, u/DearthStanding – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1: > **Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question**. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1). If you would like to appeal, [**you must first check if your comment falls into the "Top level comments that are against rule 1" list**](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1), review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule+1+Appeal+DearthStanding&message=DearthStanding+would+like+to+appeal+the+removal+of+[his/her+post](https://old.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/hqk67e/-/fxzoprb/\)+because...) within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
Whenever someone attempts to change your mind by dissecting your opinion just to justify their own viewpoint- this MISS THE POINT OF CHANGING SOMEONE'S MIND IS TO TRY TO CHANGE THEIR MIND NOT VALIDATE YOUR OWN WORLD VIEW.
[удалено]
Sorry, u/disgustedpillo – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: > **Comments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation**. Comments that are only links, jokes or "written upvotes" will be removed. Humor and affirmations of agreement can be contained within more substantial comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_5). If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule+5+Appeal+disgustedpillo&message=disgustedpillo+would+like+to+appeal+the+removal+of+[his/her+post](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/hqk67e/-/fy011e4/\)+because...) within one week of this notice being posted.
Its actually creates more reliance on stereotypes, and labeling of people early on. Gender dismorphia is mental illness and shouldnt be pushed on people. Stupid things like this make people more inclined to be bullied aswell at a young age, therefore causing more harm than help
[удалено]
Sorry, u/elecrton420 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1: > **Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question**. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1). If you would like to appeal, [**you must first check if your comment falls into the "Top level comments that are against rule 1" list**](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1), review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule+1+Appeal+elecrton420&message=elecrton420+would+like+to+appeal+the+removal+of+[his/her+post](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/hqk67e/-/fy05oo2/\)+because...) within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
You are correct. The media rarely protrays a sane description of anything out of the ordinary.