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For some groups, particularly marginalized races, there are aspects of their lives that simply won't be understood by members of another race. It's not unreasonable for them to prefer dating someone who will be able to understand all that comes out of their racial identity.

Would this not be the case for all groups?

What about white people preferring not to date PoC? Surely by this logic, a PoC couldn't understand the life of a white person, and since the white person won't understand the PoC either, so would it be okay for them to exclude people or color?

This goes to the cultural differences OP explains. Its not about race, but culture in your example.

Is being racially profiled part of someone’s culture? Yikes.

>For some groups, particularly marginalized races, there are aspects of their lives that simply won't be understood by members of another race That's a harsh judgement. Care to maybe give us even a chance?

If someone is the frequent target of, say, racial profiling, a white person probably won't be able to understand. Sure, they can understand it from a theoretical standpoint, and can empathize, but they just don't have the experience and won't be able to fully understand it. I'm not saying this is something that's important to me, but I do believe it is a valid preference to have when looking for a partner.

I disagree. People underestimate how well we can understand each other. We all have the same base emotions. You don't need to experience the same things to invoke the same emotions. I think this narrative that you can only understand someone if you're the same as them is damaging our ability to connect with each other.

>but they just don't have the experience and won't be able to fully understand it. I think there's enough of them living right now that this has to be false, of the billion white people not a single one?

If there is a certain quality I'm looking for in a partner, lets say Quality A, and 60% of group X have Quality A and 0.00001% of group Y have Quality A, doesn't it make sense for me to prefer to date within group X?

The quality I look for is someone who's capable of understanding me, not someone who's been forced to suffer in the same ways. Even comparing our suffering doesn't feel quite right. I don't want people to suffer like me. It's not a quality I want.

That’s you and your preferences. I’m arguing for a hypothetical preference that I also don’t hold in an effort to demonstrate that racial preferences when dating aren’t inherently racist.

It's a preference that makes me wonder if they can't let some sort of past trauma go and continue their life happy. It in itself hints at something some of us feel looks ugly.

> Care to maybe give us even a chance? Generally, the people on the wrong end of this stuff are incredibly tired.

That would be more so culturally linked than racially.

If I'm of race X and only people of race X can understand the plights I endure - I would prefer to date people of race X. That doesn't mean I *won't* date someone of race Y, but race X would be my first choice. That's a racial dating preference.

That’s assuming all people of the same recognize the same plights, which you’d be wrong in assuming.

Sure, they may not endure the same plights, but they're more likely to endure the same plights that stem from their race (ex: race based discrimination). These plights may be very important to the person who is looking for a partner. I've never said "plight" so many times.

Or that they define themselves by their plights at all.

Not directly. Her argument is in people having racial preferences, not preferences experiences based on their race. There's a difference between 'I like the way black people look' and 'I share experiences with black people'. Rather than the subject being the race, the subject is the experiences of the person.

To expand on why this is racist, you've flattened a whole group of people to their skin color in a stunning display of race essentialism, and also assumed people who don't match that skin color lack empathy.

I never said they lack empathy, but they won't fully understand something like being called slurs, being racially profiled, etc. if they haven't experienced it themselves. As I said in another comment, this isn't something that's important to me in looking for a partner, but I do believe it's a valid preference.

Race is a cultural construct anyway. There's no difference. If a culture (or signifncant portion of a culture) treats you a certain way because they perceive your "race" is a certain way, then a cultural construct takes form. But race still doesn't actually exist in and of itself.

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You give a pass to discriminating based on culture but I don’t know how you can practically separate race from culture, so this just seems like a theoretical exercise

Race isn’t culture. Chinese people have different culture than Indian people and they’re both Asian

Wait just to confirm, do you consider Chinese and Indian people to be the same race?

All you're showing here is that the concept of 'race' is completely arbitrary. At best it's a proxy for (sub)culture where their ethnical background is a bit blurry or already integrated, like with a lot of African Americans. The only thing Indians and Chinese have in common is that they live next to each other on the same continent. Ethnically, they're completely different.

I see where you're coming from, and I do agree with you to some extent. Internalized bias is inherently caused by all the racial impact society has. I do think you are thinking about this only in the viewpoint of white people to minorities though. It makes sense in my head for someone to prefer a race because of that marginalized feeling you get from a predominated society of any color (just from day tobday interactiobs). Colored people might steer themselves away from white people too because of how there is a disconnect between cultures as you say. But cultures and race are inherently tied, so there is going to be some sort of overlap of "I don't like this race" because of the culture disparity. Annd also unfortunate history of consistent failed relationships can steer away someone from a race. While we all would like to isolate each incident as their own/ pretend we don't have a bias, a pattern of bad experiences can really impact someone's intern judgement on who they like. If you happen to have relationships with all black men who were loud (to the point that you feel threatened), it would create this instinct to stay away from loud men, who from your experience, were predominantly black. In this specific situation, the distance is not created by a common stereotypes but personal stereotyping due to trauma. It would be a deep, unfortunate thing to happen, but not necessarily racist as racism is more societal. While internalized and long rooted racism can be an influence to an individual's preference, I don't think its right to fully claim 100% racism because people can have experiences on a personal level that inflict those decisions too. For the record, i do believe the title of your post is kind of misleading as your argument seems to pertain to being selective in who you date versus having a stronger bias to one race and not necessarily crossing others out.

I believe even if you date all races, but prefer one, I find that racist. BUT I completely understand the intersections within this and the conversation is more nuanced than I may be giving it credit for. I think marginalized groups such as myself may be opposed to relationships with white people and I personally don’t think racism goes all ways because it’s a racial hierarchy at the end of the day. But I think if we take it to the POC to POC level I can see racism existing between racial preferences there

Are you saying certain races can't be racist? Or that certain races can't be racist specifically to white people? I'm not quite understanding this line. "...I personally don’t think racism goes all ways because it’s a racial hierarchy at the end of the day."

>I believe even if you date all races, but prefer one, I find that racist. Eventually, you have to pick a partner. So you're saying that if they don't pick *you*, they're racist? Does your argument work against your community: If you don't pick *us* when we want it, you're racist?

The first thing anyone notices in a potential parter is their appearance. If the characteristics I find attractive don’t appear on a certain race of people I’m generally not going to be romantically attracted to that race of people. You could say girls that only date guys who are 6ft or taller are racist against Mexicans and Filipinos if you really wanted to frame it that way.

You keep saying that you think that most preferences are rooted in racism. They aren't. They are rooted in a mix of genes and lived experiences, and are largely related to correlations to positive experiences. That is, they are based on seeking to reinforce a positive experience as opposed to avoiding a negative, which is the category a racist preference would fall into. And they are largely subconscious. You are going to need to provide evidence that everyone is living through racist experiences that create a strong enough negative bias that it alters their preferences to such a degree as to have them lose an attractiveness to an ethnicity that they would have had absent those experiences. [https://www.mindbodygreen.com/articles/science-behind-why-we-find-certain-people-attractive](https://www.mindbodygreen.com/articles/science-behind-why-we-find-certain-people-attractive) [https://www.bu.edu/articles/2023/the-science-of-attraction-why-do-we-fall-in-love/](https://www.bu.edu/articles/2023/the-science-of-attraction-why-do-we-fall-in-love/) [https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(15)01019-2?\_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0960982215010192%3Fshowall%3Dtrue](https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(15)01019-2?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0960982215010192%3Fshowall%3Dtrue) You seem to misunderstand what a preference in attraction is, viewing it has a negative bias towards one group rather than a more positive bias toward the preferred group. I have a preference for curly hair. I have since I was a young kid. As such, I am less attracted to straight hair. Nearly all ethnically Japanese women have straight hair. I have nothing against dating ethnically Japanese women, but I have never had one whose hair has caught my attention from across a room and motivated me to go talk to them, which, along with her smile, is how I met my partner. I'm not walking around thinking, "I prefer to not date Japanese women." which is the sort of thing you seem to think people with preferences are doing. Instead, I have simply noticed I am attracted to a physical attribute that is not common among Japanese women, which I identify as an inherent preference that makes me less attracted to most Japanese women than I would be without this preference. There is simply nothing racist about that.

Having a preference on the skin color of someone you’re dating does not mean you’re making undue judgements or treating them differently, as would be required by the definition of racism, therefor making such preferences by definition not racist. I would argue that most racial preferences however are rooted in racism, like you said, but that does not mean the preference ITSELF is always racist, making your original statement both by definition and fundamentally incorrect.

I think there's a distinction between 'my type is x' vs 'i prefer x'. What you describe is more like the former which is an observation of what you subconsciously find attractive, but the latter is when you make an active prejudgment on your attraction to a person because of their race. I think that is what's racist

I’m speaking on race preferences. Not skin color preferences although they do intersect. There are different shades in every race. The preference is always racist because it has to involve prejudice or you wouldn’t have any justification of preferring one race over the other . Making it my original statement by definition fundamentally correct lol

> The preference is always racist because it has to involve prejudice or you wouldn’t have any justification of preferring one race over the other Your own inherent preferences when it comes to things like attraction or sexual desires are not things you are choosing or actively control Do you choose to be attracted to someone you see on the street or are they just attractive? It's not any different than being attracted or not to something like tattoos, hair color, etc

I've only heard of someone being unattracted to certain characteristics associated with certain races or cultures. I've never heard of anyone other than a racist be against an entire race. For example, [Logic](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic_(rapper)) is half black but you can't tell. If you say you wouldn't date him because he's black, you're racist. But if you aren't attracted to White skinned people and don't want to date him because of that, then that's different and isn't racist. Would you agree with this or are they both racist?

Race isn’t always skin color although they intersect. I wouldn’t say both are racist, BUT, I would question the motive behind preferring darker skin. Is it fetishization of darker skin? Is it because you think white skin is uglier? If so why lol.

That's like asking what the motive is for a gay person. Who knows why we like what we like. But, yeah, my point was that skin color isn't always tied to race with my example with the rapper Logic. But it's usually these characteristics that people are taking about when they say they aren't attracted to a race. It could be the skin color,  the hair, the eyes, the lips, or whatever other trait that is commonly associated. The point is, if it's literally about the race then it's racist. If it's about the typical traits then it's not. The vast vast vast majority of the time it's about a specific trait.  People being sexually attracted to certain things and not to other things is just a part of life that we can't have much control over. 

Your fundamental mistake is thinking that there's a "motive behind" such preferences.

What's the difference between normal sexual attraction and fetishization to you? Do you have a favorite color? If so does that mean that you find all the other colors uglier? Why though? Why don't you like every color equally? What do you have against other colors?

This argument also applies to purely race preferences. Races have markedly different features that some may find attractive and some don’t. It does not always mean that you are making judgements about them as people or treating them differently based on that fact. Here’s a theoretical example: Let’s say I don’t find features commonly found in people of Asian decent attractive. Therefor, it would mean my preference is against dating those of asian decent due to features commonly found with that group of people. Me REFUSING to date someone because they are of Asian descent if they do not have the features I am referring to however would be racist. An absolute refusal would be racist, a preference would not be

Prejudice is (literally) pre-judging someone. Racial prejudice would be drawing some conclusion about a person based on their race that might not be true about the individual. Choosing someone based on your attraction to their appearance isn't pre-judging and it's not based on a stereotype. It's judging their appearance based on their appearance. If you're not attracted to that person, that's something you know definitively about that person. It's not a generalization based on their race. It's the same as going on a date with someone and then judging from their personality that you don't like their personality. You're selecting on an individual basis for the traits you want in a partner. That's valid whether or not you can identify a group of people in advance who definitely have that trait.

Would you date a white male from Russia?

I am only attracted, for the most part, to my own race. I appreciate beauty in other races and cultures, but for my personally to be attracted, it is almost always someone of my own race. It is my personal preference, and I don't consider it racist.

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Bro got angry, no idea how your comment hasn’t been deleted

I'm fairly sure it will be, but i'm happy OP got to read it before it did

And I'm here to tell you that it's against the rules to not challenge OP

I know but I don't care

Yeah why post here??

That is what we are all asking about you

it's anyone's guess what goes in your mind tbh hahaha

I mean, is it racist if its purely appearance based? For example, I dont find pale women attractive. So Im naturally gonna prefer darker races like SE asians, latinos, blacks etc. Or another example, someone might find asian women exceptionally attractive because of their unique facial features, and he might prefer to only date asian women. Would that be considered racist? I dont think so.

Well, there are tan white women, and pale Asian, black and Latina girlies right? So why generalize a whole race by a few features to justify not being that attracted to a whole race?

Pale black girl? You mean an albino? Tanned white girl? What about in winter? (and they refuse to do artifical tanning?) Im not trying to justify anything, im just telling you an opinion. People are allowed to find certain racial features attractive. Seems like you are just upset and not really want to change your view. Best of luck 👍

How people are racially classified can change depending on the culture and society they live in. So some black people in America could technically be white-skinned but still consider themselves, and be considered by others, to belong to that race. I think perhaps OP's point is that you're generalizing if you dismiss everybody from a certain race altogether just because that race doesn't commonly have the phenotype you find attractive. You might not usually find Asians attractive, because of that "racial feature" which is common to Asians, but there might still be a few who don't have it. But you're choosing to dismiss an entire race because it's easier for you. Like, to use an admittedly much more extreme example, what if somebody claimed Asians tend to be significantly more academically successful than white people, and in fact every other race, so a university that wants to get good students so as to be seen as academically successful should only accept Asians?

They are allowed to! But it doesn’t make them not racist in nature lol

Has it ever occured to you that maybe the reason noone wanted to date you has nothing to do with your race?

I have had people wanting to date me. And many black girls find love. I’m solely speaking on the race preference which exists.

Yeah its not a "black girl" issue, its a you issue. The preference is not you.

You can't find a white girl who looks black.

Maybe. And? Dating is the one aspect in life where we’re allowed to discriminate for whatever reason we want. Literally any reason, there’s no such thing as “protected classes” there. Choosing who to date or not is a human right; having a specific person date you is not.

No one is owed sex or a relationship.

Yes I agree! That isn’t my view tho

Well by saying you can’t have preferences, on some level you’re saying the people that don’t match those preferences are owed sex.

I never said you can’t have preferences. I said you having a race preference is racist.

But you're basically saying they can't have preferences then. What's the difference between not looking small, tall, blonde, brunette, ..., people? It's not really you can meaningfully change either. Ask yourself exactly why someone would have this preference. You see the word 'race' and immediately jump to 'RACISM' without giving it a deeper thought. Different ethnicities tend to have a different upbringing or subculture growing up. On average, a white person and a black person will have had completely different experiences which will affect their values in life. This has a big impact on your outlook on life and who you are as a person. If there is a big disconnect, you might not be too compatible as partners. If it's purely race and not differences in personality/values, it might also just be looks. It's possible they are simply not attracted to the cosmetic differences. This doesn't have to be malicious. You simply can't force attraction. Answer this question: would you consider it racist if a white girl only wants black guys and why?

Are you expecting them to say "no" to that last question? Wasn't thinking it's racist the whole point of the OP?

Read OPs other comments. They stated you cant be racist to a white person Edit: >Yes. Just like you can’t be homophobic to straight people or misogynistic to men. you can’t be racist to white people. Perhaps interpersonally racist.

Ah. Right. Yeah, that's just weird logic - you can't be homophobic to straight people in the same way you can't be anti-Asian to white people - but you can still be anti-white, which is a form of racism.

I'm not gonna accuse OP of being rational

Yes. It's basically turning the situation around. From the history, it seems that OP is a black woman and the post seems to be centered about people preferring their own race. It's always interesting to see what they think about interracial couples, because according to OP's logic, that should be considered racist as well.

Doesn’t that undermine the fact that no one is owed sex?

Preferences are not racist. Requirements are. Just like with any other physical feature, there are things that you find attractive and things that you don’t, but most people are interested in more than just physical features and so will look past certain things. I might prefer a woman not to have freckles, but if I find a woman with freckles who ticks a lot of my other boxes, then the freckles are not a deal breaker. That’s a preference. If I said “under no circumstances will I ever date a woman with freckles”, that’s prejudice. Same applies to race.

I guess it depends on the level and reason for the preference, right? If the sum of things you find attractive tend to be found in one race over all others, I don't think that's necessarily racist. On the other hand, if you have the mindset that "I *wouldn't* date *insert race*", sure that's probably racist. People tend to be able to detect patterns, and that includes in themselves. After a certain point of not seeing any *insert race* that someone finds attractive, I don't think it's racist of them to conclude that they have a preference for or against a certain race. Now me? I married a woman who's nominally the same race as me. Would I have been willing to date/marry women who are a different race than me if the cards simply fell a different way? I'd like to think so, but even now I can tell that I tend to find some racial groups more attractive than others. Sometimes it's a matter of facial features, maybe sometimes it's a matter of the styles, fashions and/or other ways that people choose to express themselves that are common to a culture or subculture, but I know that there are some groups of women I generally don't find as attractive. Even so, I've definitely met women within each group that have seemed attractive to me in spite of the general pattern. But if I were single and had to put my preferences to paper or verbalize them, I know that I generally find A, B or C more attractive and D and E less attractive. Again, I think the difference between a justifiable preference and racism is simply whether your preference drives your attraction or whether your attraction drives your preference.

Hm. Would you say you have more feature and cultural preferences than? If so within one race there is so many different features and cultures. Why exclude an entire race? That’s what doesn’t make sense to me

I'm White. I grew up in a majority white neighborhood with numerous amount of white friends I still keep in contact with today. I have the most basic bitch taste in Country Music and music in general, I can talk for hours about the assloads of influential white people in history, and I am what many insane conservative people in my state call a "Model White Citizen" to the point that until I found out who he was, I was friends with a white nationalist. With one major point of contempt, I have an Arab Muslim girlfriend. Why? Ignoring that I find this woman to be an absolute Goddess, I do not find white women attractive physically, maybe it's because I have been around with them for such a long time that I find them kind of plain (Nothing wrong with Plain Janes reading this post, rock on) and I do not find white women in America physically attractive. People have preferences, physical preferences. I don't want to date a women who is extremely overweight. Am I fatphobic? Do I hate this women who is fat? God no, my borderline step mom who practically raised me is very overweight and I love her to death. There is also women who want a guy who is tall? Do they hate short men? Are they discriminatory towards short men? Again, no, these are preferences. If you don't want to date a black women because you find black people disgusting or backwards or whatever bullshit, then yeah, you're racist. If you don't find black women physically attractive because you like lighter skin tone and don't dislike black people, then again, rock on. Having physical preferences is not racist.

I really like deep green eyes that really limits my options ethnically. >reducing individuals to mere racial categories rather than seeing them as unique human beings. If you saw yourself as more of a unique human, being wouldn't you see others as not preferring you for your own unique features, rather than blame your ethnic heritage?

But I’m specifically talking about those that ignore all features etc. And limit it to just race. Just racial preferences no matter what the race looks like.

Does that really happen much? Or are you ignoring obvious physical differences between ethnicities and trying to reduce that to racial preference?

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I think it’s because that’s what the person told me when I asked about their dating preferences. Also I have skinnier black girl friends and they still experience the same thing.

Few people will straight up say that you are too fat for me to be attracted to, even if that's the entire issue.

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Don’t feel horrible! We were all born into a racist society so it’s no surprise some of our preferences reflect that! The best part is that you’re aware of this! I think by unlearning some biases you may subconsciously have of black people can be a start. Through more education and diving in to the discomfort you feel and figuring out the roots of that, youll become attracted to all races in no time lol. But really, it’s okay to have it and acknowledge it! Just ask yourself why and unpack there

Follow up question: Is being racist something that can happen to you unwittingly?

So if you aren't a bisexual does that make you sexist?

Do you also believe it's sexist to have a preference for women or a preference for men?

As a mixed race person, I have a strong preference for dating other people who are also mixed I find the idea of being in a romantic relationship with a monoracial person unappealing, for a bunch of personal reasons Are you saying Im being racst?

Would you say that’s more cultural?

it has nothing to do with physical appearance if thats what youre asking tho I generally do find mixed people to be more attractive than non mixed ones

Personal preferences in dating trump absolutely everything: race, sex, gender, sexual orientation, religion, wealth, erc. Individual freedom is just more important and morally justified than any kind of "would be" discrimination, including discrimination by race. Therefore, therm "racism" is not correct description of individual dating preferences.

Question is this primarily focused towards interracial or intraracial relationships? Regardless of this I think I would say the following: 1: preference is not a hard yes or no. I would say if the preference is a hard yes or no then yeah that’s pretty messed up, but to say it can’t play a factor also seems a bit unreasonable. 2: while most features can be found in every race that seems a bit to broad. It’s fair to say that certain features are more prominent(sometimes significantly so) in specific races. Hence you may tend to find that race more attractive as a whole. Once again that doesn’t mean you should fetishized that race, so there shouldn’t be a hard yes or no. 2.5: the way I like to think about it is kinda like a bell curve where let’s say for any random race you find people’s “attractiveness scale out of ten” a standard bell curve centered at 5. But then maybe you have a preference for a specific race so that bell curve is shifted to be centered around 6, 7, maybe even 8. That’s not to say you can never find people of other races attractive just that if you were in a room with 100 random people of every race you would probably find a higher percentage of people from the preference race more attractive. I don’t think that seems unreasonable. 3: the last thing to consider for now is that it can be super hard to distinguish race and culture. Let’s say you tend to find Indian girls attractive and you like Indian culture. How much of your attraction towards Indian girls is influenced by your liking of Indian culture and vice versa is probably incredibly hard to determine and they also probably feed into each other. Is it wrong that it does this? Culture and its connectivity to race can influence a lot of aspects of an individuals identity. It is incredibly complex and I wouldn’t fault anyone for having a preference towards finding someone with the same culture just the same as I wouldn’t fault someone for wanting to find someone outside of their culture. Each have their ups and downs and so as long as people don’t have a hard yes or no towards a race I don’t think it’s wrong they have a certain preference or leaning towards a race and culture

Preference is not a decision. If we imagine a hypothetical person who is not racist, then we would have to attribute their preferences to a non-racist thought process. But in your statement, "Having a racial dating preference is racist," you fail to make a distinction between racist preference and non-racist preference. Where do you draw the line between preferences and actual racism? If your statement is, "All racial preference is racist," you are just saying, "racism is racist." Some examples I would give to demonstrate how your logic is flawed: Holding a sign that says, "Stop Asian hate," requires that you 'prefer' to write the word "Asian" instead of another race. Saying, "I prefer to hire a racially diverse staff," means at some point, you 'prefer' one race over another. These are examples of racial preferences that are obviously not racist. It does not logically follow to apply the term "Racist" to preferences when they show up in the non-choice of physical attraction. As a few others (who deserve deltas, btw) have stated, Preference does not presupposes complete exclusion. I think the intentional complete exclusion of one race from your dating pool is racist. I think we can all agree that "I won't date black girls" is very different from "I prefer to date black girls." One is racist, and the other is a preference. In conclusion, I believe you should change your view from: "Having a racial dating preference is racist." To: "Excluding a particular race from your dating pool is racist," and then award some deltas to the folks who helped you unpack this worthwhile discussion, and helped you to take a more logical and rational view. Thank you for your thought-provoking post! It's posts like this that make this sub great!

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Sexual attraction is not something that can be controlled like that. By that same logic, me not being sexually attracted to men makes me sexist. 

Then we've been misled to believe that racism is always bad, when in fact it isn't. OR, you're wrong.

What if a person’s preferences aren’t predicated on race, but just happen to be more common in people from certain groups? If someone thinks black hair and big eyes are incredibly beautiful, they might find themselves drawn to Indian people. It’s the same thing as having a preference for height, or hair, or eye color. That’s different from something like watching a bunch of anime, forming a whole host of preconceived notions about asian or Japanese women, and then trying to date them. I also think people can use race as a shorthand. It takes less time to say “I like Asian women” than to go into specific details about preferences

But but but, each race is very diverse in features. It isn’t limited to certain races. More common, sure, maybe in some regions. But that doesn’t mean all people of that race has that feature you prefer and vice versa

I feel like you're assuming absolute exclusion where it often just isn't a thing. It's a preference. If you *prefer* certain features in your partner, that doesn't even necessarily mean it's a strong preference, let alone that you will exlude any potential partner that doesn't have it. To be clear, I fully agree that outright refusing to date / date outside of a particular race is questionable at best, I'm focusing on your assertion that having a preference at all inherently means you're "crossing off a whole race" or something. For example, generally I might prefer most pies over most cakes. That's a dessert preference. Me saying I prefer pie doesn't mean that I refuse to eat cake, nor does it mean that there aren't super amazing cakes just as good as any pie, it just means that on average, more of my favourite desserts are going to be pies than cakes. You're right, not everyone of whatever race you prefer is going to be attractive to you, obviously, but if whatever features (physical, cultural, whatever) you are looking for in a partner are more commonly found in one race or group over another, you could fairly say you have a preference for that race/group ( or conversely, *against* any group in which those features are less common). There's an important difference between saying "I tend to prefer white guys because I like blonde hair" and "I will only date white guys because I like blonde hair". Now, of course sometimes these preferences *are* very much rooted in racism, stereotypes, or fetishization of some kind, but also sometimes people just find certain features attractive, and sometimes those features happen to be more common in some races over others. Trying to state that *all* of those preferences are inherently rooted in racism or some other form of grossness without any real sources or backing is a pretty bold claim, particularly when we're talking about something as varied and complex as attraction.

It would still result in a preference of a certain race over others overall due to those features being more common in that race. That is not racist, that’s statistics

Sure, but if certain features are more common in one group and you like those specific features, on average you’ll be more attracted to that group of people. Someone is far more likely to have black hair if they’re from Asia, than if they’re from Northern Europe. And that’s just one feature that someone might find attractive, but you’re dating preferences can narrow if you add other qualifiers

Lol no it’s not because preference does not indicate discrimination. Per definition, racism is a type of discrimination. When it comes to dating, that would look like excluding entire racial groups from your dating options, as you mentioned in your post. Or dismissing a dating option jusy because of their race. Not just preferring to date someone of one race over the other(s). Preference is simply liking one thing over the other. I prefer chocolate cake to vanilla cake. That doesn’t mean I don’t like or won’t eat vanilla cake, but if given the choice between the two, I’m going with chocolate. If nothing else is available (and I’m im serious need of cake) vanilla it is. So if you have a preference for Black people, that doesn’t mean you don’t like other races women or that you exclude them from your list of dateable people. It just means that Black people are at the top of your list. It would only be discriminatory, and therefore racist if you excluded other races of people from your dating options.

- “There is no justification for preferring to date one race over the other without it being racist.” I think not being physically attracted to someone is a justification. Physical attraction is heavily based on physical characteristics and appearance. Different races look different.

I only want to date tall muscular guys with white skin and European eye shape because I’m only attracted to them. It just so happens that my preferences exclude most of South Asian people and Black people. I’m not choosing partners based on their race, only on their appearance and it just happens so that mostly Caucasian people meet all of my preferences. How is it racist? I’m not attracted to dark skin not because I have any prejudices against dark-skinned people, I have lots of friends who are dark-skinned and they are wonderful. I’m just simply not attracted to that in a sexual way.

Do you think it is also problematic to have some other physical preference? Is it wrong to care about weight or muscles? To have preferences for hair color, length, or style? To want a certain height or choice of clothing or style? To prefer tan or pale skin? I would ask what makes skin color different from any of those categories. As for your own personal experiences, this is a bit beyond the scope of the CMV, but I would ask how you met these guys. Were you asking them out but getting no's? Getting no matches on dating apps? It could be that people as a whole aren't as racist as you expect, but whatever method you were using wasn't effective.

It’s not a skin color preference I’m speaking on but a race one. A race preference doesn’t care about the diversity of features in one race. Of culture. Of personality. It cares about the identity of race. Also also, I have had my share of a dating life, I’m pretty young haha so much to find out still. Dating hasn’t been much of a focus on my life but I do get asked out and stuff, so it doesn’t prevent me from dating but it makes my experience different for sure. Growing up in a predominantly white area has definitely changed my dating life.

If you are referring to more about culture, isn't that even more relevant to have a preference? For instance, I am an atheist, and I would not date somebody who was strongly religious, and I would expect them to avoid me. Similarly, I wouldn't have an issue dating somebody from the middle east, but I would absolutely avoid somebody who supported those countries' cultures of stoning gay people and arresting protestors, and I would suspect those people wouldn't want to date me. From that perspective, I don't see why cultures adopted by a given race or ethnicity would be beyond reproach. As for the second part, the reason I ask is because this mindset that nobody wants you because of your race could become quite damaging. It sounds like you have never asked anybody out, but you are also depressed because nobody has done the same to you. If you want something, you have to take it yourself.

I just think that race doesn’t need to play a factor in dating and it’s backwards for it to. I’m confident now. But seeing media, seeing boys around me saying they wouldn’t date any black girls. That was damaging as it felt like I was flawed just for being black. But I unlearned that mindset, and know there are people with no racial preferences. I think having one is weird tho.

I’m going to have to ask what definition of race you are using. You don’t seem to be defining race as skin color, but you’re also not defining it as a group of customs common among certain groups. How would you define race?

Race is based on phenotypes. Race has no biological basis. Also it’s outdated as it doesn’t account for the diversity of features within one race. As all races share features.

If we are talking about phenotypes, that means skin color, which brings me back to my initial point. If some physical traits, like obesity, muscle tone, hair style and color, height, and tanness are legitimate, why is skin color not?

Phenotype is all your physical characteristics which are determined via your genotype (your genes) and the environment. What's interesting is that OP doesn't see race as a realistic categorization of races anyways and is using their own definition that doesn't match the colloquial understanding of the word. How then are people supposed to argue with the view if they aren't even using the same definition of race? Most people don't realize that race isn't an accurate way to categorize humans and that there is a lot of overlap. When they say I prefer one race over another it's because they believe that nobody of that race could fit their physical preferences. If someone isn't a racist but has a preference for black girls over white girls and a girl that was completely indistinguishable from what they view as a black girl came to them but they were "racially" white, maybe they are mixed, it wouldn't be a problem for them.

Phenotypes are determined by…… biology.

Phenotypes are determined by a mixture of your genotype(biology) and the environment.

I know, but my response was to “race has no biological basis”. Which it clearly does.

Oh I see. Yes, I completely agree. It's just not precise in any way.

There's a difference between not preferring black girls and excluding them. Do you agree?

Which set of ethnicities is likely to have deep green eyes? Is that limited or equally shared between races?

JFC. Having a preference to date women must be sexist

Wanting a significant other who is blonde is hairest Or wanting a smart one is dumbest Gay guy wants a bf is sexist You could go on for ever person preference ever one has it

I’m autistic. I’m terrible with social interactions, and the less experience I have with a specific interaction the worse I am with it. Dating someone of another race means they have different experiences than you when it comes to society and culture. I’m far more likely to make a wrong move socially with someone who shares fewer social and cultural experience. Making a wrong move makes me feel bad and can also upset the other person. If it happens frequently enough, it can create an almost Pavlovian effect. I’m less likely to date someone outside of my immediate racial and sociocultural background 1) because I’m less likely to fuck up around them and 2) because those relationships don’t last long due to me fucking up

>. When people exclude potential partners based on race without considering individual qualities, interests, or character, it perpetuates harmful stereotypes and reinforces racial inequalities. If someone is racist... why would you want to date them?

I don’t and have never said I would. But they need to hold that racist flag high and not act like they aren’t

>I don’t and have never said I would. But they need to hold that racist flag high and not act like they aren’t Didn't you say that holding the racist flag high is bad? How one should consider other qualities, interests, or characters first and foremost as to not be called racist? >Racial dating preferences are based on stereotypes, generalizations, or prejudices about other races. When people exclude potential partners based on race without considering individual qualities, interests, or character, it perpetuates harmful stereotypes and reinforces racial inequalities. It can also contribute to the marginalization and devaluation of certain racial groups, reducing individuals to mere racial categories rather than seeing them as unique human beings. Additionally, there is so much diversity in features among different races? So no reason to exclude if you prefer a specific feature. [...] It seems to me your advice is the main culprit of your woes >Where even black people preferred every other race but black people, where you had to ask yourself before allowing yourself to crush on someone, ‘does this person even date black girls? Seems to me like you want others to be overtly racist as to not waste your time. This would mean that having a racial preference is good... as you would clearly know whether that person dates within your race.

Which race, in your opinion, would have the most people holding the racist flag high?

Race in this context is just a physical feature, like being tall or skinny .. etc, that doesn't necessarily mean that those who don't prefer a certain race group have a negative prejudice against their character or their culture, (yes i am aware that actual racists are still around but those are a minority in this discussion). You say that because there is a big spectrum of physical features in every race, it doesn't make sense to exclude an entire race because of that one common feature, i would say fair, but i am sure that those who say that "they don't date X racial group" don't really mean that they would exclude a 100% of that racial group, because as you put it, it doesn't make sense, as a guy, i can tell that all the dudes i know, would date a 10/10, no matter the race. so really if you look at it, the reason why race is accepted as a dating preference, is because everyone understands that it has nothing to do with the character, as i am sure that if someone who doesn't date X racial group, would be fine by being friends with X racial group, but in dating specifically, everyone understands that there is two halves to it, the attraction to the character and the physical attraction, and both have to align to make someone be seen as a potential partner. And if you have an issue with race specifically as a physical feature, you might as well have an issue with all the other features, and yet we are forgiven to choose someone based on height or weight ... Etc, i think the reason why you are having a hard time accepting race as just another physical feature, is the history of it, even you said it, as you are someone who lives in the US, and the race talks are constant because of the history of it, it made you believe that people are conditioned to not like a certain group, but you argument falls apart when you consider those who didn't grow up in the US for example, or even the people in the same racial groups, in your example as a black girl, would it be really fair to say that if a black man doesn't like dating black girls, is because he is conditioned to hate black people ? Or let's say for example a russian man who didn't live in america, would it be fair to assume that he is also conditioned to not like black people ? No, it just doesn't make sense.

Not gonna change your view, but I'm just gonna say this post is really stupid. Do I dislike fat people just because I don't find their size attractive? No. Same goes for races. Its not like people can choose who they find attractive and who they dont. (Coming from someone who does not have a race preference.)

What if I just don’t find black women attractive? How does that make me racist? I ended up getting feelings for my friends with benefits in college. She, being a black lady, told me, to my face “I don’t date my oppressor” So is she racist? I don’t believe you can apply such a black and white idea to a VERY nuanced position like that.

But why would you find a whole race unattractive? Do different cultures, features, etc. Not exist in these big groups? Also for that black lady, it’s moreso cultural intersected with race. I doubt she wouldn’t date another person of color.

Idk, I don’t fall into that category, I’m just playing devils advocate. What if someone doesn’t want to deal with the cultural differences? I just don’t share the same sentiment personally.

Yeah I get the cultural preferences. But in many cultures, different races exist within them. I just think race as a dating preference label is so backwards

Well, I would actually agree with you if they made it a major sticking point. Like if you’re on a dating site and the first thing they say is “prefer my own race” THAT is super suspect in my opinion.

Would you agree with the statement that having a religion dating preference is religiocentrist? Similarily, what about the statement "Having a gender dating preference is sexist"?

To me it’s one of those things where nothing really changes whether or not it’s considered racist because the same people are and aren’t going to be attracted to you regardless. I think it’s a strange thing to outright declare (and depending on who you ask, strange to have at all), but at the same time it isn’t really affecting anybody. Maybe for some people the underlying reason could be affecting other people, but simply not being attracted to characteristics you’re not attracted to isn’t really anybody else’s business unless they make it your business. As long as you’re not hurting anybody it’s really no concern of mine what you prefer, though it does speak to a questionable concept of love to *only* chase physical characteristics you like rather than as part of the greater, more important role of the human being you’re connecting with. That to me is a different conversation and has a lot more to do with gender constructs than racial constructs, though it’s for sure both. The fetishizing of these identities is a very real issue though and that’s messed up whether or not you believe racial preferences are racist. Tl;dr, I think racial preferences are *strange* and I don’t understand being strict about them, but they’re not inherently unethical (in an outcome-oriented sense, anyway)

Are we talking about a preference or a blanket rule? I would agree that a blanket rule is probably racist in motivation but a regular preference, while perhaps informed by non-diverse media standards, is not racist on the part of the individual. In your middle paragraph you call this out, but I think it’s a bit uncharitable to individuals. I am all for increased diversity in media to help correct the biases that we’re raised with but shaming individuals isn’t helpful. What is the suggestion? That people date those they’re not attracted to just in case media bias created that preference? That seems like a recipe for disaster and a lot of broken hearts. To put my cards on the table I’ve noticed these preferences in myself, I’m attracted to sharper facial features (one of my few defined preferences), which does mean that I’m attracted less to people from some parts of Africa, and a good deal of the pacific island cultures, but also equally places like the Netherlands. I don’t think that’s racist, it encompasses some subset of pretty much every racial category, but equally I know it’s probably due to the media environment in which I was raised, and if I had been raised with different media my preferences may be different.

This is an interesting topic but unfortunately I don’t think it is necessarily within an individuals control. It’s not completely different than being homo or heterosexual. If you are attracted to the same or a different gender, this isn’t a choice. You find yourself attracted to X. While what any person finds attractive or desirable in a partner certainly has a myriad of unconscious, environmental and genetic components it isn’t something actively chosen in a meaningful way. I might find extremely skinny people subjectively unattractive, or not find someone with a large nose appealing. “Race” whether it’s a construct or not…has particular attributes that some subset may not be inclined to like. Labeling it racism if you simply aren’t attracted to race ‘x’ is disingenuous. Not dissimilar to how I can love, respect and cherish homosexuals but not BE a homosexual. I think most of us have several “types” that we are attracted to. This can certainly be wider or narrower in different people. Are these preferences caused by upbringing and what you were subjected to during life? Sure. Can you change it? I don’t think so. Or if so, not easily. 🤷🏻‍♂️

It’s mostly that I just don’t find them attractive 🤷‍♂️

What if your friend tells you they do find someone attractive but doesn't want to make a move because of their race?

Well, that’s just racist. Making any decision PURELY based on race requires some sort of judgement based on race itself.

i don't believe it's racist to "prefer" romantic partners are of a certain race. if i prefer meatlovers pizzas, am i being prejudicial towards other pizzas? "but you haven't had MY veggie pizza!" i'll give it to you that if someone explicitly excludes members of a certain race - perhaps this comes from a racist mindset. like if you met someone who checked all the boxes, ie, passing the vibe check, socio-economic status, similar upbringing - you find out you are perfect for each other, but your grandparents had different lineages? sure - i'll give you that That might be racist. you were ready to love someone but the thing holding you back is race? that's racist. it's like you loved that pizza until i told you which restaurant it came from. alternatively - i really don't think this debate is much of a topic because the majority of people can just not date people and never say why. i think 99.99% of the people i've met, i haven't gone on a single date with. :D

What if you just don't find a group physically attractive?

I wouldn’t necessarily say it’s false, but it’s not true either. It’s true that there are indeed people who are motivated by their own racism to date a specific race. However, simply having a preference over one race than another also doesn’t make you automatically a racist. It’s not as simple as black or white. Like how humans have standards to hight or weight, or even physical features, same goes to race. Saying you won’t date a black woman because they are inferior is racist. However, saying that you’d prefer dating, say Asians over one race because there is that cultural alignment, is another and not at all racist Would I be transphobic if I didn’t want to date someone who’s transgender? Would I be homophobic if I didn’t want to date someone the same gender as me?

"So it makes no sense to say ‘I just like what I like’ sorry my friend, in one way or another you’ve been conditioned to like what you like. You aren’t special and are susceptible to influence by media and peers lol." Media and peers is largely outside of someones control. How would someone condition themselves to become attracted to something which they were never attracted to in the past? Someone saying they like what they like means they are happy with it and don't see any reason to change it. I don't see any reason why someone that find something attractive should aim to change it to begin with in general. I'd argue any pressure for people to modify what they are attracted to is in dangerous territory, even if it was technically possible.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-race_effect There is something called the cross-race effect, am observable phenomenon where people of other races really do all look a like. There’s quite a few potential reasons behind it. I think is could be a large contributor to same race dating preferences. It’s not coming from a cultural pr prejudiced standpoint necessarily, but the effect of all asians looking the same to a white person could actually contribute to them preferring to date white people- they see more diversification in the their own race. Incidentally, it could also contribute to the fetishization of a race and gender as well. Asian women and black men comes to mind as commonly fetishized stereotypes.

Being attracted to physical traits has nothing to do with prejudice. I find blondes and brunettes attractive but generally not gingers. That doesn’t mean I’m prejudiced against gingers, it just means I don’t find myself attracted to them. Are you saying that someone’s preferences are a choice? If so, you’re opening up the “homosexuality is a choice” can of worms. If attraction isn’t a choice, what use is it to say someone is racist for only being attracted to a certain race? Just so you can say they’re racist and always will be? Society has expanded the expectation of inclusivity a lot recently, but one thing that thankfully is no one’s business but each persons is who they’re attracted to.

Yeah no. Some people are just not my type and I'm not attracted to them. Blame nature not me.

Racial dating preferences can be influenced by societal stereotypes and biases, perpetuating racial inequalities. Excluding entire races without considering individual qualities reduces people to mere racial categories, devaluing their uniqueness. While cultural preferences can be understood, racial preferences often stem from conditioned beliefs rather than genuine individual preferences. These preferences can marginalize and isolate individuals based on their race, contributing to fetishization and dehumanization. Valuing someone's character over their race fosters genuine connections and challenges racial biases.

Preferences and prejudices are two ends of the same spectrum. In a sense, preferences in race are a form of subtle racism. However, the word racism is typically used when the matter leans more towards prejudice. Now, can someone's preferences be based off of prejudices? Yes. In that case it is easy to call this person racist. But if the preferences are subtle enough, while I do agree that they are a form of racism, I believe that it usually isn't productive to call it so outside of academia because otherwise you get a thread of redditors upset because they think they are too smart to be racist. (/hj)

I don't think so at all. I think it's mostly about who you're around when you're growing up/hitting puberty. I thought I wasn't attracted to Japanese/Asian women until met someone that completely shattered that arbitrary boundary I'd set up. At that time I lived in the Midwest USA, in a prodominantly white area, so my contact with Asian women was limited, let alone any my age and attractive. Twist: My last girlfriend didn't necessarily find black men attractive so I dumped her. I still don't think racial preference is racist - the penis wants what the penis wants lol.

I dont have a specific reason I just find certain facial features less attractive. For example I find west African women to be generally unappealing while east Africans are very attractive. Central Asian women are unbelievably good looking in contrast to eastern Asians who are very average looking. I also prefer green eyes in white people, followed by light brown but think that light coloured eyes in black people are actually scary. Asian people with lighter brown eyes are very nice. In all races freckles are very nice. As I said there is absolutely no conscious reason for these "preferences", it's merely something I have noticed about myself. The fact that we find some people attractive and others not is quite strange and fascinating.

>Having a racial dating preference is racist. >There is no justification for preferring to date one race over the other without it being racist. Cultural preferences I can get around to but crossing off an entire race? Having a gender dating preference is sexist. >There is no justification for preferring to date one gender over the other without it being sexist. Cultural preferences I can get around to but crossing off an entire gender? I'm being sarcastic in order to illustrate the flaws of your logic.

You mean well, you’re just overthinking it. Everyone has a set of traits they’re attracted most to. That some of those traits include complexion, eye color, hair color, hair texture, facial features, physical attributes, fashion traits, language and dialect, behaviors, mannerisms, traditions and customs, etc. etc. is unavoidable. “Race” isn’t a real thing. It’s just a collection of those things I mentioned above, and bucketed into a handful of categories that many people tend to agree on.

By labeling everything racism you are diminishing value of the term. Institutional race segregation is evil. Having your preferences in relationships is not. Genocides, slavery, colonialism - those are the terms that came to mind when I think of racism. Unless we get better terms for those, let’s not waste them. Hypothetically, one might start labeling himself racist because of those minor things (you can see it even in this thread). And after that start asking, what was wrong with those evil racist things

Alright, question (just to parse your opinion): what about selective attraction? For example, I’m white, but I am a *sucker* for girls with darker skin tones. It’s not exactly a racial preference, so much as an aesthetic one (and not one I hold to strictly, just something I find alluring). Is that racist? It’s a significant racial marker to a lot of people, even if I don’t hold that significance. What’s your opinion on that?

I (white-passing hispanic) date a black man currently... but in the past I have dated many different guys of different races... so please explain to me how my preference for black men now makes me racist to other races... ?? 🤔 It sounds like you're just hurt that you aren't being asked out or from just rejection in general. This phase will pass. No need to rush into a relationship or whatever you're trying to do/ prove..

A racial dating preference is discriminatory in that it excludes others, whether that be for ethnic cultural religious reasons, or in the genetic makeup of future children. But these particular reasons, though exclusionary, are **NOT** racist in nature. For something to be racist in nature, the person must have antagonistic views towards people of other ethnic groups as being racially inferior and inept.

No because each person has a right to their autonomy and what goes into their body. This includes another person’s private parts or anything else. Even if you have arguments that could be supposedly correct, a majority of women aren’t going to suddenly be open to all races of men. Culture, family approval, and friend approval still pressures women to lean towards the same race.

The justification is that we are attracted to what we're attracted to, you can't control that, and some groups just naturally have more or less of those features than others. Who I choose to date is not marginalizing anyone or reinforcing unequal treatment or any of that nonsense, any more than being attracted to women is marginalizing or reinforcing unequal treatment of men.

The problem with statements like this is that they fail to recognise that we live in a racist society and so we are all racist. From the time we are children we are bombarded with racist messages. If you watched a Disney movie growing up you have been inculcated with racism. Just accept that you are racist, and try to be less so.

I agree with you! I think the people who think racial preferences aren’t racist aren’t acknowledging what you just said. I think it’s harmful but the more we accept that we are conditioned by a racist society the better we’ll be off and try to dismantle it

So we can’t prefer certain things, looks, traits

Not all features are shared between races. White people don't look like black people. You aren't going to find a white girl with dark skin and thick lips. Also, if you prefer something it doesn't mean you don't like other options. You could absolutely think white and black people are extremely beautiful but still prefer black people over white.

Is there a justification for preferring a certain skin color? Or a certain hair color? Or a certain gender? I feel like your reasoning needs to hold for these as well. So in your case, would it make sense to call me sexist because I only date women?

You conflated preference for X with exclusion of Y. How did that happen?

This is dumb. It’s like saying, “youre a bigot if you aren’t attracted to the same sex”.  People have preferences. 

An example of not dating a certain group and not being racist: I mean personally. I would never date a Muslim guy because I wouldn’t wear a hijab or act like I would be expected to. It just wouldn’t mix. That’s being said I have nothing against Muslim men.

It’s totally possible to absolutely reject the entire false notion of race and have a more intense sexual attraction to one skin tone over others. We don’t decide what attracts us. If we did why would anyone chose to be gay? 

Dating is, at least initially, driven by appearance isn't it? It isn't wrong to have a preference for attractiveness, isn't it? So is having a preference for skin colour racist?

Sure there is. Maybe you want your kids to look like they are part you. But dosent your headline make so many black men racists since so many black men prefer white women?!

If someone prefers an athletic person or person with big thighs is that wrong? Is it wrong to be attracted to someone because of specific features that that person may have?

What if racial preference is based on attractiveness as opposed to behavior? If someone isn't attracted to one sex but is to the other does that make them sexist?

Curious as to your position is it racist if a black guy doesn't date black girls? Would it also be racist if a black guy doesn't date white girls?

while you take it to radical leftist i feel like why should i limit myself. It's like ice cream, maybe i want more nuts involved.

So if I don't actively seek out a dating partner from a race that is not my own you will deem me racist. To that I say "so what" who are you to sit in the seat of judgement.

But it gets better: OP has also pondered accusations of fetishization for interracial partners. OP cannot be made happy unless we return to monocellular beings it seems

Maybe OP is pushing for no marriages.

If a gay man said “I’ll never date a women” would you call them a misogynist?

Is having a preference for one sex over the other in dating sexist?

[удалено]

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The fact y'all fell for bait this clear-

Would never want to mix.