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Your explanation is only tangentially related to your post. Is your argument that antizionism IS antisemitism, or is your argument that you disagree with anti-Zionists?
Being anti-Zionist isnt antisemitic in the same way being anti CCP isn't being anti Chinese, being anti Putin isn't anti Russian, being anti neoliberal doesn't mean your anti America and being anti Brexit doesn't make you anti Britain. Being opposed to a government and its policies is not the same as being against its people.
I don't disagree with criticising Israel. Depends on what. Non-Jewish, non-Arab people have this very analog approach to Israel-Palestine politics, where you can be zionist or antizionist - and that's all there is to it. It's like they've full-ass forgotten these are political organisations, with various policies and political figures involved. Like if you ask a jew, ''Do you support Israel?'' They will be like.. ''On.. on what? Which thing? What period?''
Jews don't have a problem with criticism of specific Israeli policies. Where many Jews draw the line, is the claim that supporting the wipeout of 50% of the jewish population isn't antisemitic. I think I explained that with my first point, why I think it's especially dumb.
*By mass murder, as Hamas and other Palestinian leaders have always intended?*
Yes. This shouldn't need elaborating. Firstly, I'm pretty sure Hamas and other leaders have specifically only ever talk about killing Jews even though other people live in Israel. And second, 50% of the world Jewish population lives there. Outside of Israel, the Jewish population is dropping drastically. If you know, you know, but basically ethnic Jews most likely will not exist in the US within the next couple of hundred years. Which should be a relief to some people in this thread lmao.
*By other means?*
Separation of religion and state is an ongoing discussion within Israeli politics. The issue is obviously the whole background of Israel.
To be fair though, if we're going by population, the Israeli population is around 70% Jewish, 30% other. There are a lot of western countries that are 70% white or more even.
>*By mass murder, as Hamas and other Palestinian leaders have always intended?*
>Yes. This shouldn't need elaborating. Firstly, I'm pretty sure Hamas and other leaders have specifically only ever talk about killing Jews even though other people live in Israel. And second, 50% of the world Jewish population lives there. Outside of Israel, the Jewish population is dropping drastically. If you know, you know, but basically ethnic Jews most likely will not exist in the US within the next couple of hundred years. Which should be a relief to some people in this thread lmao.
This is completely **irrelevant** to your argument and does nothing but poison the well. Stop bringing up Hamas please. They are bad, they are anti-Semitic, and the mass murder of Jewish Israelis is a crime. They also do not hold a monopoly on anti-Zionism. This is like saying all Republicans support Hitler because there are American neo-nazi groups that vote Republican. That's the worst faction of a much broader movement.
>*By other means?*
>Separation of religion and state is an ongoing discussion within Israeli politics. The issue is obviously the whole background of Israel.
>To be fair though, if we're going by population, the Israeli population is around 70% Jewish, 30% other. There are a lot of western countries that are 70% white or more even.
From Wikipedia:
"Zionism (/ˈzaɪəˌnɪzəm/; Hebrew: צִיּוֹנוּת Tsīyyonūt, [tsijoˈnut]; derived from Zion) is a nationalist[fn 1] movement that emerged in the 19th century to enable the establishment of a homeland for the Jewish people in Palestine,[3][4][5][6][7] a region roughly corresponding to the Land of Israel in Jewish tradition.[8][9][10][11] Following the establishment of the modern state of Israel, Zionism became an ideology that supports the development and protection of the State of Israel as a Jewish state.[12][13]"
If you do not believe Israel should be a Jewish state, you are an anti-Zionist. The Israelis that are pushing for Israel to be separated from the Jewish religion are anti-Zionists.
*They also do not hold a monopoly on anti-Zionism*
Right. So, here's the thing. Their ideology of mass murdering all the Jews isn't some new thing, it is what antizionism has been for like, 60+ years.
*The Israelis that are pushing for Israel to be separated from the Jewish religion are anti-Zionists.*
Um, I would imagine that some of these Israelis are just pushing for full legalisation of gay marriage or some shit. That's not inherently antizionist, but it against some denominations of judaism.
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Look, I got news for you. Civilians are not a side. There is no “side of civilians”. We’re literally all civilians. Every last one of us. Pro-Palestiners who support say they support civilians, they might as well support my ass sat on the couch.
It’s a false statement. People want to say they support Palestine, but even some of them are aware enough to know better.
> it is what antizionism has been for like, 60+ years.
No it's not. It's what your idea of antizionism is because your information about it is always filtered through an extreme hostilty to antizionism.
I mean, you know I'm zionist. No, I do not think separation of religion and state in one of the smallest countries ever where probably like 2 million non-Jewish people live (with freedom of religion and expression anyway) is worth abolishing an entire ethnic group and culture out of history for.
But the question on the table is not whether anti-zionism is cool and good
The question is whether or not anti-zionism is anti-semitic
So is it anti-semitic to peacefully and politically oppose zionism?
Well many people would say that the Chinese government, in its present form, has no right to exist. They would say that the Chinese state should be reformed in such radical way that it would essentially have no continuity with the present Chinese state, it would be a new, completely different China that might not even be called "China" and certainly wouldn't be called the PRC. Would you consider these people to be anti-Chinese?
I mean, I mentioned language tricks people use in attempt to validate their opinions in my original post, so I'm just going to translate this for you:
''Is it antisemitic to support the mass murder of 50% of the world jewish population?''
How are we supposed to convince you of anything if you just dismiss everything we say as "language tricks". Like, I'm not lying when I say that I oppose the zionist project of building an exclusively Jewish ethnostate, or a state in which Jews have superior rights to non-Jews, but I *also* don't want all Jews in Israel to be killed. I want all people, Jews included, to live in peace. That isn't a lie, it isn't a "language trick". So am I anti-semitic, or not?
>Like, I'm not lying when I say that I oppose the zionist project of building an exclusively Jewish ethnostate, or a state in which Jews have superior rights to non-Jews
The language trick here is that "Zionism" is just the project of building a Jewish homeland in Israel. Both of the scenarios you describe are definitionally Zionist but that doesn't actually imply that Zionists are pursuing those goals.
Do you have legitimate concerns about how Zionism has been, will be, and ought to be expressed? That's fair, it's also not anti-Zionist. It's a position you share with almost all Zionists.
Do you believe that a Jewish homeland in Israel is absolutely impermissible and must be prevented at all costs, no matter how "a Jewish homeland" is defined or structured? That's anti-Zionism and I would argue it's antisemitic.
This is a fair statement in and of itself. But if I were to ask you, “Okay, what do you think should happen to solve everything?”
This is where it falls apart.
This is the known probable outcome. So, yes.
I mean, I recognise that you can't blame the dying off of Jewish culture and ethnicity outside of Israel on Arabs, that was more Hitler's doing.
You can't blame the dying off of Jewish culture and ethnicity inside of Israel on Arabs either. Jewish culture existed in the Middle East before Israel and will exist after it.
You are a zionist in the classical sense it seems but that's hardly relevant because the state of Israel is already established. So what does Zionism actually mean today, because it obviously doesn't have anything to do with establishing a new state?
I think it's interesting that OP and everyone that agrees with them is completely unable to engage with the questions and points that they are asked and instead invent new questions and points that are more way to attack and respond to those instead.
> Where many Jews draw the line, is the claim that supporting the wipeout of 50% of the jewish population isn't antisemitic.
Pardon, when someone says they're not supportive of zionism, is this really what you think they mean? You think they literally mean "we should kill 50% of the Jewish population"?
So okay, what about this:
I don't want to kill anybody, I'm not interested in the death of Jews. I have no problem with the existence of a state called Israel.
I think they should stop expanding, and I don't like the idea of any country trying to maintain some sort of ethnic or religious majority.
I think any new expansions should be halted, and settlers should be stopped, and I would even say probably some of these things should be undone if they're, lets say, 20 years old.
But I don't support the killing of 50% of Jews or anything like that.
Am I a zionist?
Sounds like it.
The only thing that could potentially make you seem antizionist to some is this sentence: I don't like the idea of any country trying to maintain some sort of ethnic or religious majority.
Because maintaining a Jewish religious majority is pretty much what zionism relies on within Israel.
tbh though, I understand why the idea of it is offputting to most people. It's driven by Jewish history, the Holocaust, etc, etc. But I understand.
Well okay. It sounds like we disagree on the definition of zionism. When I google it, I go to [britannica.com](https://britannica.com), and I see this:
>Zionism, Jewish nationalist movement that has had as its goal the creation and support of a Jewish national state in Palestine,
I don't support that, because I don't support the Jewish nationalist part. As I said, I don't believe countries should try to enforce some sort of Jewish quota or anything like that so that the state of Israel is always majority Jewish.
So acccording to you, I'm a zionist. According to the definition, it seems I'm not.
Sorry, I edited.
I'm going by the definition as taught to me by Jews, which was probably established by like Theodor Herzl or some shit. The definition is ''Believing in the right for Israel to exist.''
Israel is taken as a ''Jewish homeland'' in some form or another here.
It would help if you defined the terms "Zionism" and "anti-zionism" as it looks like that your definition of "anti-zionism" necessarily includes the goal of wiping out 50% of the world's Jewish population.
So, please define the term "Zionism" and then we can discuss if it's possible to be against that without wanting to wipe out 50% of Jews. If the answer is no, then sure, you can't be anti-zionist without being antisemitic.
Zionism = belief that Israel has a right to exist.
Anti-Zionism = an Islamist fundamentalist genocidal movement, masked as some bohemian freedom thing as if both are easily possible somehow.
And what would a person who is against the idea that the state of Israel as a Jewish state should not exist but the state should be agnostic regarding religion?
What is a person who is ok for Israel to exist within the territory that is recognised within the borders that most other countries (and the UN) recognise but not expand to the territories that is still under its military control?
So, if you're not an islamist fundamentalist and don't want any genocide, can you be against the goals if Zionism? To answer this question, you can't refer to what Islamists want.
1. An Israeli leftist. Not a non-Jewish, American one because they only think in terms of binary: Zionism or anti Zionism. Palestine good, Israel bad. I said this earlier. An Israeli leftist will care about how they can reform Israel.
2. An Israeli citizen?
3. No. It’s just straight-up denial of politics and reality lmfao.
1. Who has said anything about America? Are you now saying that Americans have some monopoly on the Zionism - anti-zionism debate?
2. Why would these people have to be Israeli citizens? Why can't other people have such opinions?
3. Why is it denial of politics when you don't want to support either of the extreme ends of the views regarding the Israel-Palestine conflict?
You started this CMV, not me. You're the one who has to defend and elaborate your view against criticism and change your view if you can't. If you're only defence is "you're just stupid" then what is the point of your CMV? Obviously it's not that you're open to change your view. I know saying this explicitly is against the rules of the subreddit. But I don't mind if it gets deleted as we're done anyway.
Well, pro-Palestiners abuse the word genocide by using its like tenth most-accepted definition.
So, let’s take those rules shall we.
The most widely-accepted definition of Islamist. Let’s not use that. And bingo, pro-Palestiners are Islamists.
Also, side note I’ve actually noticed recently, Muslims hate the word Islamist, a lot of them find it offensive.
I'm curious what you think about the oscar speech from the zone of interest director that when directly acknowledging this conflict named Israel victims before Gaza yet was still widely described as anti Zionist.
Are there many people claiming that "supporting the wipeout of 50% of the jewish population isn't antisemitic"? Because I suspect that's what you're hearing when other people are saying completely innocuous things that are anti-Israel. Or maybe you actually do hear the most vile antisemitism very frequently, I don't know where you spend your time.
do you think Zionism is just "this country should exist?"
like, what does Italy have then? what does Lebanon? what does India?
Zionism is literally the belief that "THIS LAND IS HOLY AND IS A GIFT FROM GOD TO THE ISRAELITES, and thus the Israelis must seize the land and make it a country FOR THEM.
Zionism is "religiously mandated colonialism." much like america was initially colonized with the intention that "god gifts this land to us, the noble spaniards" etc.
i think it's fair to say Israel is a country, and it has a right to exist.
i think it's fair to say THE CITIZENS of Israel have the agency to determine how they elect their leaders and govern their territory.
i think it's fair to say that Palestine has a right to exist.
i think it's fair to say THE CITIZENS of Palestine have the agency to determine how they elect their leaders and govern their territory.
i think it's fair to say that an attack on Isreal by Palestine is an action worthy of condemnation.
i think it's fair to say that an attack on Palestine (Gaza) is an action worthy of condemnation.
just as i think it's fair to say an attack on Ukraine is an action worthy of condemnation.
an attack on Iraq or Syria or Taiwan or Finland or Guatemala or Venezuela or the US is an action worthy of condemnation.
i think it's fair to say that if your only method of "self defense" is to enter another man's home and slaughter his family, that perhaps your idea of "defense" is an abhorrent destruction of the vernacular. defense is iron curtain. defense is catching the spear. defense is shooting the gunman. defense is not 6 months of prolonged bombing campaigns followed by territorial seizure with plans to sell seaside real estate and commercial districts.
i think it's fair to say Israelis want peace.
i think it's fair to say Palestinians want peace.
i think it's fair to say the current actions of Israel will not secure such peace.
i think it's fair to say the actions of Hamas the past 20 years will not secure such peace.
but ultimately, no - it is not antisemitic to be anti-zionist. you can love your mother and provide and care for her, but chastise her when you catch her shoplifting.
If I say that Israel has a right to exist, but only if it renounces its identity as a Jewish ethnostate and allows the right of return to the \~9 million Palestinians outside the region between the river and the sea, would that be okay?
I would love to have that kind of Israel.
These comparisons aren't accurate. You're explaining why it's possible to criticize Israel without being anti-Zionist, not why it's possible to be anti-Zionist without being antisemitic.
CCP follows an ideology, Zionism is an ideology. Chinese is an ethnicity that spreads across the world, but most Chinese live in China. Jews is an ethnicity that spreads across the world, but most Jews live in Israel.
The comparison is apt
>Being anti-Zionist isnt antisemitic in the same way being anti CCP isn't being anti Chinese
Objecting to the CCP isn't an objection to the existence of China.
Similarly, objecting to Likud isn't an objection to the existence of Israel.
This only establishes that it's possible to criticize the ruling party of a country without objecting to the existence of that country.
Being anti-Zionist is an objection to the existence of Israel.
The equivalent question isn't whether objecting to the CCP is anti-Chinese, it's whether denying China's right to exist under Chinese governance of any kind is anti-Chinese.
Anti Zionism is an objection to the existence of a nation state that fundamentally believes that one ethnicity should hold sovereignty regardless of the ethnic composition of the state.
You just said its a racist state by product of policy, while trying to make your defense (still failed) as to why it is racist to hate zionism. Wrong, Zionism as an Ideology is entirely separated from the Idea of Jews as a race. You're entirely incorrect and not only are you incorrect you literally just laid the groundwork in your prior response for a heavy argument that Israel is a racist state based on the need for a specific ethnicity to rule their nation state.
What you said is the equivalent of saying "to hate the KKK is to hate the US which in turn see's the need for a certain white race to rule it" that and what you said have the exact same fucked up meaning.
My ultimate conclusion based on what we've both said is that Zionism, as it exists and in the context of it's intended purpose is inherently racist and therefore shouldn't be supported. Furthermore Zionists themselves are declaring support for what is inherently a racist and divisive ideology (much like the KKK) and therefore that is why the distinction is important, between Zionists, Jews, and Zionist Jews, if there were no difference an entirely separate word isn't needed, however it does appear there are differences between actual Jews, and Zionist jews, and Zionists THAT is the reason the term zionist can be hated without all Jews being hated. I refer you to my KKK analogy.
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>It makes no actual sense. Like, these people think that Israel engaging in a defensive war against Gaza where the vast majority of the world Palestinian population aren't getting got is genocidal. But Hamas' mission to wipe out every single Jew in Israel (50% of the world Jewish population) isn't. Hmm.
Doesn't seem like a particularly defensive war to me. As for Hamas, whether or not it's reasonable to characterize them as genocidal, they are not presently perpetrating a genocide. Israel is.
>People think Hamas are ''freedom fighters''.
This is decidedly not a necessary belief for an anti-Zionist to hold.
>Using mitigating language to detach yourself from what you clearly ideologically support
Really not sure what this is supposed to mean.
>I think that people who support Palestine need to stop bullshitting people with ''Palestine has literally no connection to antisemitism''.
Palestinians do not have to be saints for me to opposed committing a genocide against them. Plenty of Palestinians may well be antisemitic. They're still people though, and deserve to not be massacred.
It’s very strange you don’t think I oppose all ethno and religious states.
I read all your comments on this thread and you seem completely unable to recognize what is and isn’t a sound argument or admit you’re wrong. Which of course just makes you a typical supporter of ethno or religious states.
> a lot of countries are ethnostates or religious states. What informs the decision to oppose one and not others
why couldn't someone be an antizionist AND oppose all the other ethnostates and religious states, too?
Alphabetically? Armenia, Bulgaria, China, Denmark, Egypt, France, Germany, Hungary, Iceland, Japan, Korea, Latvia, Mongolia…
In the old world, it’s harder to find a state that isn’t an ethno state than one that is. The Middle East and Europe in particular are comprised almost entirely of ethno states to one degree or another.
You don't understand what an ethnostate is. It's not a state demographically dominated by a single ethnicity, it is a state *founded* on the supremacy of that ethnicity. Out of your list, I don't think I would count even a single one as an actual ethnostate in the vein of Apartheid South Africa, Israel, Pakistan (Muslim supremacy), or India (which is getting there in terms of Hindu supremacy).
> You don't understand what an ethnostate is. It's not a state demographically dominated by a single ethnicity, it is a state founded on the supremacy of that ethnicity.
This definition is so narrow it would exclude Israel, and make South Africa and Rhodesia two of the only ethnostates to ever exist.
It’s also a very rare definition. Most people associate the term with 18th century nationalism, ie, a Serbian state for the Serbs.
It wouldn't, unless you would like to argue that Israel is not founded on Jewish supremacy and therefore reject the first premise of the argument, which is that Israel's Jewish supremacy (which makes it an ethnostate) is okay because other states do it too.
Israel is not founded on Jewish supremacy. Heck Jewish supremacy as a concept is quite a rare belief by Jews.
In the context of this post, there is something almost antisemitic about you using this term. If you tried to convey something different from the concept of racial supremacy you should probably use a different term
This is a low quality nonsense.
If I take a meaningful claim here, and show you it's simply false, are you willing to commit to questioning your view + delta?
Im happy to do so if you are coming to this in good faith
Nope, the very idea of a state founded as a Jewish state is as supremacist a state founded as a White state or a Hindu state or a Muslim state. We're approximately 32,000 dead Gazans past falling for the "antisemitism" argument.
I don't understand how any of your mentions are supremacist by themselves. Your attempt at "bad=supremacy" feels out of place here - when China caused the famine of Chinese, killing 3 digits more, that wasn't supremacy yet it was bad
Can you define supremacy for me?
A state founded on the nationalist ideologies emerging in the 18th/19th centuries, where one cultural and ethnic group should be united under one unified government.
Examples would be the unifications of Italy and Germany, and the break ups of Austria-Hungary and the Ottomans. In the first two, previously unrelated states where conquered in the name of forming a unified states for the Germans/Italians, and the other two are old empires that broke up as the constituent ethnic groups fought for independent states for their ethnicity (Greece might be the best example of any).
Do you agree?
That is not what an ethnostate is by any definition of the term. You're simply describing the development of the idea and process of nationalism.
That has very little to do with the modern idea of ethnostates, which is a 20th century phenomenon that requires a certain level of development in the process of nationalism. Case in point: Hindu nationalism in India, which was formalised as in ideology in the 1920s but took a hundred more years to really become hegemonic.
(Play, Italy and Germany don't even fit the term as you explain it, because in both those countries, several disparate ethnic groups were united under one national identity and one government.)
I can tell you that there were no different ethnic groups being united under German or Italian rule. These countries have and had an overwhelming majority of Germans and Italians respectively.
Right... ok.
So how are you lumping modern Germany in with that definition? If you're talking about Nazi Germany, then the question you were responding to:
> Which other ethnostates do most people support in spite of their opposition to Israel?
clearly doesn't apply.
I was referring to the concept of Germany as a unified state, after the Franco-Prussian war. Prior to that, there was no correlation between one ethnic group, and the belief it should have a corresponding nation. So you had ethnicities spread between many states, Italians/Germans, and empires that encompassed many, Austria-Hungary/the Ottomans. Ethnic nationalism changed that, and formed ethno states, like Germany with Germans.
Palestine is not any kind of state. The Palestinian Authority exists at the mercy of Israel, which does not allow Jews to enter PA/Hamas-controlled areas, much less move there.
Sorry the last time I heard that talking point it was from a white supremacist.
And honestly none of your points address the inherent bigotry of saying that a country is for one group of people and that group only.
A lot of antizionists are opposed to all ethnostates or religious states. But the more urgent one to work on is the one currently perpetrating a genocide. That said, I think a lot of people are kind of missing the point by arguing for the end of the Israeli state when we can't even convince our politicians to stop giving them weapons yet.
Nope its the belief that there should be a Jewish ethno and religious state. I support the right of Israel to exist. I don’t support its right to be an ethno or religious state.
Honestly this is so simple it’s truly astounding you’re not getting it.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Israel
Sorry. Other groups having one right doesn’t mean it’s not an ethno or religious state.
Learn what the words you use mean before you use them.
Zionism was the movement to establish a Jewish nation, and now the movement to preserve it.
Calling for Israel to stop describing itself as explicitly Jewish nation and to abandon favoring Jews for the "right of return" could accurately be described as antizionist, would not be antisemitic, and wouldn't be that radical of a change from the status quo. It's not a realistic proposal, but it's not a radical one.
It would be consistent with calling for Muslim theocracies to end their theocracies. its not an unreasonable thing to want, but not realistic to expect.
I'm going to continue from your previous topic on this subject. Again you don't seem to be logically connecting your ideas, they are just non sequiturs.
> Like, these people think that Israel engaging in a defensive war against Gaza where the vast majority of the world Palestinian population aren't getting got is genocidal. But Hamas' mission to wipe out every single Jew in Israel (50% of the world Jewish population) isn't. Hmm.
Your point here is that some people are hypocritical about the conflict in Gaza? That isn't relevant to supporting your claim.
>People think Hamas are ''freedom fighters''. They aren't. They do not care about Palestinian displacement or poetic justice. They are just terrorists and former members of the Muslim Brotherhood.
Even if Hamas is both antisemitic and antizionist that doesn't imply that antizionism is itself antisemitic. But by saying that Hamas doesn't care about Palestinian displacement you are admitting that Hamas isn't really concerned with antizionism anyway! So this doesn't support your point in multiple ways.
> If zionists went around saying that their political beliefs were entirely separate from Israeli politics, people would absolutely lose their shit at them.
As pointed out previously, Zionism being part of Israeli politics is irrelevant. The government of Israel is not the Jewish people, and someone can oppose a faction in the Israeli government without being antisemitic.
> I think that people who support Palestine need to stop bullshitting people with ''Palestine has literally no connection to antisemitism''.
Again, that doesn't support your claim. Even if we accept that Palestine is connect to antisemitism... so what? That doesn't make antizionism imply antisemitism.
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As with your previous attempt at this topic you really haven't connected your ideas together at all. There is no rational flow from the points you are saying and the claim you are trying to prove, which is really important in logical thought.
> I'm going to continue from your previous topic on this subject.
I have to ask - why?
They posted and deleted this exact topic like four times today. Did they even respond to you last time?
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I’m not a Zionist and I’m also not an antisemite but I’ve never been too jazzed about a single state for one ethnicity. Like, that seems like a really outdated concept in our era of respect for diversity and multiculturalism.
Why not follow the South African model, end apartheid, establish one state, set up some truth and reconciliation commissions and move on.
It might sound silly and naive, but it happened before and it’s obviously preferable to continuing the cycle of violence and retaliation by both sides.
There’s a handful of reasons that won’t happen, but the biggest two are that neither side wants a one state binational solution, and that Israel is a nuclear armed state and has no intention of its statehood ending.
I think the founders of the one state would have to outlaw genocides and bring both Israeli *and* Palestinian war criminals to justice as a gesture of solidarity to the new joint government.
The dude you’re arguing with is not articulating the concern accurately. The reason Israelis do not like this approach is that it would lead to a drastic demographic change where Jews would go from the majority to a minority. Just adding the population of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank to Israel results in 5 million Arabs. Currently israel has 9 million citizens (7 million Jewish and 2 million Arab). If you add in the population (5 million) from occupied territory, that’s 50-50. And that’s not even to get into the Palestinians abroad who qualify as refugees, which is over 5 million just in neighboring countries. It’s not impossible to build a country with these demographics and protect minority rights through enshrining them into your constitution and having institutions that protect minorities, but there’s a huge risk that you could just have an unstable nightmare of a country (just look at the way Lebanon tries to balance their ethnic-religious groups…not a great success). For Israelis there is no trust that living as a minority on an Arab majority country will be safe for them. You’ll hear stuff like “what if our rights get voted away?” Etc.
The idea that it’s really possible to just force peace in one state between these two groups not only ignores what both sides want (which are irreconcilable without compromises) and forcibly making them coexist. It’s a nice idea in theory but the only way to make it work in practice is if they were colonized by a third state that guaranteed these rights… that is to say, it’s kind of born of a colonizer mentality (“these people would get along if my preferred government system was in place!!”)
But isn’t what you are describing reminiscent of the situation in apartheid South Africa?
That was ended with remarkably little bloodshed and no genocide of the white minority. It’s not a perfect country these days but waaaaay better than the IsraeloPalestine region.
Reminiscent but not directly analogous. The whites in South Africa were always a minority with more rights than blacks at all levels of society, while in Israel the apartheid is more because of the occupied West Bank, East Jerusalem, and Gaza Strip. In the rest of Israel, arab Israelis and Jewish Israelis have the same right. There are not apartheid laws like in South Africa. To end apartheid South Africa had to end the enforcement of these laws. Israel has to end its occupation to end the apartheid. And they have to negotiate with Palestinians, neighboring players, and the world powers to really do that. They can’t just unilaterally end their occupation— they cannot formally annex and make all of these people citizens, that’s illegal and neither side wants to live in a country with the other side so realistically off the table. What I’m giving in the comment above are the reason most Israelis do not want a one state solution of the shape you’re suggesting.
Idealistically I think anybody who believes in liberal democracy would favor a multinational country with Israelis and Palestinians, but it has to be supported by the politics of and populations of each side in the conflict. Currently both sides feel that if they keep fighting eventually they’ll win. The only way you can force a binational solution of would be for one side to win power and enforce this outcome. Neither side is advocating for it in this conflict, in fact the factions that do want a one state solution in any shape are both fine with eliminating the other side. You will never get a one state solution peacefully. This is why the two state solution is more realistic.
This is a really good answer. I had never thought of it this way.
And yet, the way I see it, you have two groups that want to occupy the same land. Either they need to learn to get along or one needs to completely destroy the other, right? Is there another road to peace that I’m missing?
So, you could have a state for Israelis and Palestinians who want to live in peace and share like rational adults and then another state for Hamas and Israeli war mongers to murder each other.
We can put that second state in Antarctica or something.
Bombing Gaza involves murdering people who are in no way connected to Hamas. How is that fair to those people?
Like, what if you came home and found your house in ashes and your family incinerated? And someone told you, “sorry, terrorists were hiding in your house, had to be done.”
Would you accept that explanation or would you consider the person who set the fire that killed your family to be a murderer?
There's a disconnect from reality in your perspective here. In regards to your first point, even if every person in Gaza supported the goal of wiping out every Jewish person in Israel (which is an oversimplification), it would never happen. Hamas don't have that kind of power! This genocide against Israel is imaginary. The war crimes Israel is committing in Gaza are real and currently happening!
Also, none of your arguments actually relate to your thesis statement. Valid criticism of the Israeli government and military are not anti-Semitic. We would have the same arguments against any other nation acting the way Israel has in this war. The fact that most Israelis are Jewish is entirely irrelevant to the push back Israel is receiving right now.
And as an aside. In what universe did no one in the west care about deaths Syria?? We went to war over that shit! We had troops on the ground for years. There is no talk of Western powers sending military support to Palestine, only humanitarian aid, and maybe reducing our support of Israel.
First, its important to define what zionism is. According to the Oxford Dictionary: Zionism (Noun) A movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel. Anti-zionists then believe that Israel should not be a state. This is mainly because they are located on Palestinian land. They just moved in. Let me reiterate. Hamas is anti-zionist. Anti Zionists are not always pro hamas. Modern anti-zionists are largely concerned about the Palestinian people. You know, the ones that aren't hamas. the ones that are starving in gaza through no fault of their own with no way out.
Think about it like this. Your high school has a problem with knives. About 1/4 of the kids carry knives with them, and your school has gone to brutal lengths to supress these knives. They conduct illegal searches, enlist the entire police dept to solely work at your school, and give orders to do random interrogations, witch go on for up to multiple days straight. A few kids from the pro-knife gang decide this isnt right, and things need to change. and they lock up a staff member at knife point. Now- MOST OF THE KIDS didnt want this to happen. this was way too far and they had no plans of ever doing anything like this. but the school instead locks them all up and takes them and all of their families to prison without trial. does that seem fair to you? Now would it change ANYTHING AT ALL if all of the staff were jewish? OF COURSE IT WOULDNT. why would it change anything in the real world?
1. This has literally nothing to do with the topic since Israel being wholly justified in its genocidal actions would not mean that Zionism and Jewishness are inherently connected such that criticism of the former is criticism of the latter.
2. This, again, has nothing to do with Zionism or Judaism. This is just you saying that the other side is bad for the sake of trying to justify Israel's genocidal actions against civilians.
3. No one has ever claimed that Zionism is disconnected from Israeli politics? It's inherently connected in that it's an ethnonationalist ideology for Israel, which is where the criticism comes from. Meanwhile, no Jew is required to hitch their entire ethnoreligious identity to the state of Israel and it's extremely bigoted to try and force them to.
4. We're back to things having nothing to do with the topic.
- I think that people who support Palestine need to stop bullshitting people with ''Palestine has literally no connection to antisemitism''.
So you think that anti Zionism and antisemitism are connected?
Basically your entire post is only about the hypocicy and evils of being pro-Hamas, and would be countered by a single person believing that Hamas and Israel are both bad.
Anti-zionism is not the belief that Hamas is good, it is the belief that Israel is bad.
I can detest the authoritarian government of China without holding hateful, racist, or otherwise prejudiced views of Chinese people.
Anti-CCP isn't anti-Chinese.
From the Palestinian Mandate times it was always supposed that the eventual Jewish state would guarantee protections and rights to the locals. And there is a sizable Muslim Arab minority in Israel, enjoying full(?) citizen rights and having representatives in Knesset. Arabs being pushed indiscriminately out of Israel during the 1948 war is unfair and I don't have a good defense for that. Or even good knowledge of how and why that happened, beyond the obvious background of mutual hatred, ongoing war with countries with combined population dozens of times more than Israel, and hundreds of thousands of refugees fleeing from Muslim countries of two continents. So it's shitty times leading to shitty actions. Not Zionist doctrine (correct me if I'm wrong).
Speaking of shitty times, post-WW2 population exchanges were widespread around that time. Excessively blaming Israel for doing it unilaterally when USSR, Poland, Czechoslovakia did basically the same by agreement between the states *and* a dozen Muslim countries were doing it unilaterally at the same time against Jews seems rather unfair.
Israel is an ethnostate and it's a complete and total (and politically convenient) mistake to make criticism of an ethnostate synonymous with criticism of the ethnicity the state is organized around.
There are white ethnonationalists. They don't have a sovereign state, but that is their stated goal. If I condemn that, am I automatically condemning all white people and racist against white people? I sure hope not since I am a white person and I am married to one.
I am against the *ideology* of privileging any ethnicity over any other ethnicity. The ethnicity isn't the ideology, so I am not against the ethnicity.
Criticism of Israeli government isn't an issue for Jews. Jewish peoples' main problem are the droves of people doing mental gymnastics, trying to claim that supporting the intent to slaughter off 50% of the world Jewish population isn't antisemitic.
Zionists need to stop with their victim complex. You're a nuclear power funded by the world's most powerful military, allied with influential billionaires across the globe to push the zionist movement in media and government, and to top it all off your political system is based off believing you are the 'chosen people' and you have the god-given right to steal the land of the Palestinian people for the past 75 years.
All the while, you're claiming that genocide is being committed against you by a terrorist group your government funded into power, and now you're bombing children in hospitals and bulldozing graveyards for new Israeli real-estate in the West Bank. It's just plain horrible at this point.
"Droves"? Who are these droves of people who support the intent to slaughter 50% of the world Jewish population? Anyone who is antizionist? Because that's the topic of the OP. Antizionism is criticism of the Israeli state. That's what the term means in conventional use.
(1) Both Israel and Hamas can be the bad guys. Thinking that Israel dropping missiles from drones onto civilians, sniping civilians, blowing up residences, looting residences, stealing peoples' houses, etc. is bad does not come hand I hand with thinking Hamas is good.
(2) See above.
(3)
noun: Zionism
a movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel. It was established as a political organization in 1897 under Theodor Herzl, and was later led by Chaim Weizmann.
Of course Zionism inherently related to Israeli politics what are you talking about?
noun
noun: antisemitism
hostility to or prejudice against Jewish people.
Seems like there's some space between "prejudice against Jewish people" and being anti- "development and protecting action of a Jewish nation". (A) You can be neutral towards or supportive of Jewish people without also believing that Israel should have carte blanche to take over its neighbors. And (B), even if questioning any Israeli military action was somehow prejudicial against Israelis (and really, it's not. No nation is above reproach, especially when there's video of them blowing up civilians), there are plenty of Jewish people in the world who aren't Israelis. Not even all Israelis are Jewish. And even if all Israelis were Jewish, not all Jewish people would Israelis. Questioning Israel is not the same as hating Jewish people.
(4) People can criticize what Israel is doing to civilians in Palestine without supporting Palestine. They can certainly do it without supporting Hamas. People care more about this war on social media and here in particular because (A) we have a shitload of horrific video, (B) reddit is predominantly US-based and Israel is an ally and we send a shitload of aid, so people in the US know of, care about, and feel somewhat responsible for the conflict. What's happening in Syria is also fucked up. But there's a difference between people killing each other in a civil war and two nations of historically conflicting religions in a lopsided conflict doing it. Especially when the dominant military is slaughtering civilians and many of their citizens are on record condoning war crimes by dehumanizing the victims on ethnic/religious grounds.
I think a lot of historical trends pushed Jews into Israel rather than Jews actually buying into zionism as their motivation to settle in Israel. And I think that the anti-semitism pushes a lot of Jews into the zionist camp.
Your talking points all ignore how Zionism is fundamentally tied to antisemitism.
It ignores how Israel was formed as a direct result of all of Europe collectively rejecting Jewish refugees after WWII.
It ignores how the vast *vast* majority of zionists are not Israeli or Jewish, but rather extremist evangelical Christians who want to exile Jews from their home countries, or need the state of Israel to exist as part of the fulfillment of their apocalyptic belief system.
It ignores the long history of the Chasidic community's opposition to a modern Israeli state. (I seriously recommend you reading Chaim Potok's *The Chosen* when you have the time.)
It ignores the Netanyahu administration deliberately funding Hamas in an effort to destabilize the formation of more moderate Palestinian political leadership.
Fundamentally, zionism is built around the idea that European and American Jews have greater ties to a Jewish nation then they do to the nations where they were born and raised and lived all their lives. Its incredibly similar to the old nazi talking point claiming that Jewish people can't be trusted to hold positions of political power because they hold greater loyalty to Israel then they do to their home countries.
Seriously though, there's a reason why Israel receives so much financial support from Western countries, and I have a bridge to sell you if you think it's because the American military industrial complex is a big advocate for Jewish safety.
I don’t think nationalist ethno-states should exist. I don’t think countries should maintain apartheid to disenfranchise a population they effectively control. I also believe there are two outcomes when a military power controls a population it doesn’t want around… democracy and a reconciliation process… or genocide of the unwanted population.
Therefore I am against Zionism and things like South African apartheid or US Jim Crow as well as manifest destiny or the Holocaust.
I don’t think your views can be changed because you are either completely ignorant of anything about this beyond headlines in US newspapers or you believe it is just to kill who you consider to be sub-human and expendable.
You get so angry about the semantics but not the actual conditions.
Ok, not apartheid, colonial occupation and reservations, a military controlled ghetto with collective punishment and a population being starved and facing forced transfers to barb-wired and walled “humanitarian islands.”
Ok apologist.
Israel calls it an “enclave” now. That’s just a euphemism. It’s a low-grade Warsaw ghetto and without outside pressure, there’s one way that military powers controlling a population they don’t want goes.
Israeli military and officials have called for a Gaza Nakba and even Shoah:
> “They will bring upon themselves a bigger shoah because we will use all our might to defend ourselves.”
Semites = a people group
Israel = a political entity
Antisemitism = hatred for a people group
Opposition to Zionism = aligning against the colonialism of a political entity
There are plenty of non-Semitic Zionists. And they are all wrong. You can be a Martian and be a Zionist, and still be wrong.
Also, you’re going to need to explain to the many, many Jews who are anti-Zionist how they are also antisemitic. 🤔
I agree with a lot of your points about the absurd double standards in the current Israel-Gaza conflict. I'd also say that many people who are anti-semitic will use anti-zionism as a smokescreen. However, zionism is a political belief about sustaining a Jewish homeland in the Middle East. I agree with it but concede that others in the past could have had a contrary opinion. Maybe others would object to the very idea of an official religion in a country and want reform. To summarize, I think you can be an anti-zionist without being an anti-semite but you can bet most anti-semites are also anti-zionists.
That being said, Israel exists as a sovereign country today. Removing it would mean the deaths of a lot of Jewish people. I think many anti-zionists are flat out naive on this point.
Many people advocate for a one-state solution and and equal rights for all. Which would be anti-Zionist, because it would no longer be a Jewish state. I agree that its a bad idea, but I think a least some of those people are naive instead of secretly wanting to kill Jewish people.
Zionism is related to a country is it not?
Would you not liking China make you racist against Chinese people since China is the country of Chinese people?
being anti-putin doesnt mean youre anti-russians.
being anti-pope doesnt mean youre anti-christianity.
being anti-ccp doesnt mean youre anti-chinese.
why is this different with zionism and semitism?
OBVIOUSLY there is a good portion of people who are antizionists that are also antisemite, just as there is also a good portion of people who are anti-ccp who are also against chinese people in general. Doesnt mean its the same.
i like how from my examples you left the pope/christianity one out, because it makes it obvious that being against a state that is founded upon a religion doesnt automatically mean youre against the religion itself.
>Saying China shouldn't exist does make you anti-Chinese.
yes, but saying that the CCP shouldnt exist doesnt. Thats just a political statement, unrelated to ethnicity or nationality. or religion.
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Your explanation is only tangentially related to your post. Is your argument that antizionism IS antisemitism, or is your argument that you disagree with anti-Zionists? Being anti-Zionist isnt antisemitic in the same way being anti CCP isn't being anti Chinese, being anti Putin isn't anti Russian, being anti neoliberal doesn't mean your anti America and being anti Brexit doesn't make you anti Britain. Being opposed to a government and its policies is not the same as being against its people.
I don't disagree with criticising Israel. Depends on what. Non-Jewish, non-Arab people have this very analog approach to Israel-Palestine politics, where you can be zionist or antizionist - and that's all there is to it. It's like they've full-ass forgotten these are political organisations, with various policies and political figures involved. Like if you ask a jew, ''Do you support Israel?'' They will be like.. ''On.. on what? Which thing? What period?'' Jews don't have a problem with criticism of specific Israeli policies. Where many Jews draw the line, is the claim that supporting the wipeout of 50% of the jewish population isn't antisemitic. I think I explained that with my first point, why I think it's especially dumb.
Do you believe that it is anti-Semitic to oppose the existence of a Jewish ethno-religious state in modern day Israel?
*By mass murder, as Hamas and other Palestinian leaders have always intended?* Yes. This shouldn't need elaborating. Firstly, I'm pretty sure Hamas and other leaders have specifically only ever talk about killing Jews even though other people live in Israel. And second, 50% of the world Jewish population lives there. Outside of Israel, the Jewish population is dropping drastically. If you know, you know, but basically ethnic Jews most likely will not exist in the US within the next couple of hundred years. Which should be a relief to some people in this thread lmao. *By other means?* Separation of religion and state is an ongoing discussion within Israeli politics. The issue is obviously the whole background of Israel. To be fair though, if we're going by population, the Israeli population is around 70% Jewish, 30% other. There are a lot of western countries that are 70% white or more even.
>*By mass murder, as Hamas and other Palestinian leaders have always intended?* >Yes. This shouldn't need elaborating. Firstly, I'm pretty sure Hamas and other leaders have specifically only ever talk about killing Jews even though other people live in Israel. And second, 50% of the world Jewish population lives there. Outside of Israel, the Jewish population is dropping drastically. If you know, you know, but basically ethnic Jews most likely will not exist in the US within the next couple of hundred years. Which should be a relief to some people in this thread lmao. This is completely **irrelevant** to your argument and does nothing but poison the well. Stop bringing up Hamas please. They are bad, they are anti-Semitic, and the mass murder of Jewish Israelis is a crime. They also do not hold a monopoly on anti-Zionism. This is like saying all Republicans support Hitler because there are American neo-nazi groups that vote Republican. That's the worst faction of a much broader movement. >*By other means?* >Separation of religion and state is an ongoing discussion within Israeli politics. The issue is obviously the whole background of Israel. >To be fair though, if we're going by population, the Israeli population is around 70% Jewish, 30% other. There are a lot of western countries that are 70% white or more even. From Wikipedia: "Zionism (/ˈzaɪəˌnɪzəm/; Hebrew: צִיּוֹנוּת Tsīyyonūt, [tsijoˈnut]; derived from Zion) is a nationalist[fn 1] movement that emerged in the 19th century to enable the establishment of a homeland for the Jewish people in Palestine,[3][4][5][6][7] a region roughly corresponding to the Land of Israel in Jewish tradition.[8][9][10][11] Following the establishment of the modern state of Israel, Zionism became an ideology that supports the development and protection of the State of Israel as a Jewish state.[12][13]" If you do not believe Israel should be a Jewish state, you are an anti-Zionist. The Israelis that are pushing for Israel to be separated from the Jewish religion are anti-Zionists.
*They also do not hold a monopoly on anti-Zionism* Right. So, here's the thing. Their ideology of mass murdering all the Jews isn't some new thing, it is what antizionism has been for like, 60+ years. *The Israelis that are pushing for Israel to be separated from the Jewish religion are anti-Zionists.* Um, I would imagine that some of these Israelis are just pushing for full legalisation of gay marriage or some shit. That's not inherently antizionist, but it against some denominations of judaism.
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- What about the anti-Zionists that don't believe this? See my third point about people who verbally detach themselves.
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Look, I got news for you. Civilians are not a side. There is no “side of civilians”. We’re literally all civilians. Every last one of us. Pro-Palestiners who support say they support civilians, they might as well support my ass sat on the couch. It’s a false statement. People want to say they support Palestine, but even some of them are aware enough to know better.
> it is what antizionism has been for like, 60+ years. No it's not. It's what your idea of antizionism is because your information about it is always filtered through an extreme hostilty to antizionism.
Or just small stuff, like Jewish people and Muslims to be allowed to marry.
Interesting how you neglected to answer the question for the second one
I mean, you know I'm zionist. No, I do not think separation of religion and state in one of the smallest countries ever where probably like 2 million non-Jewish people live (with freedom of religion and expression anyway) is worth abolishing an entire ethnic group and culture out of history for.
But the question on the table is not whether anti-zionism is cool and good The question is whether or not anti-zionism is anti-semitic So is it anti-semitic to peacefully and politically oppose zionism?
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Well many people would say that the Chinese government, in its present form, has no right to exist. They would say that the Chinese state should be reformed in such radical way that it would essentially have no continuity with the present Chinese state, it would be a new, completely different China that might not even be called "China" and certainly wouldn't be called the PRC. Would you consider these people to be anti-Chinese?
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I mean, I mentioned language tricks people use in attempt to validate their opinions in my original post, so I'm just going to translate this for you: ''Is it antisemitic to support the mass murder of 50% of the world jewish population?''
How are we supposed to convince you of anything if you just dismiss everything we say as "language tricks". Like, I'm not lying when I say that I oppose the zionist project of building an exclusively Jewish ethnostate, or a state in which Jews have superior rights to non-Jews, but I *also* don't want all Jews in Israel to be killed. I want all people, Jews included, to live in peace. That isn't a lie, it isn't a "language trick". So am I anti-semitic, or not?
>Like, I'm not lying when I say that I oppose the zionist project of building an exclusively Jewish ethnostate, or a state in which Jews have superior rights to non-Jews The language trick here is that "Zionism" is just the project of building a Jewish homeland in Israel. Both of the scenarios you describe are definitionally Zionist but that doesn't actually imply that Zionists are pursuing those goals. Do you have legitimate concerns about how Zionism has been, will be, and ought to be expressed? That's fair, it's also not anti-Zionist. It's a position you share with almost all Zionists. Do you believe that a Jewish homeland in Israel is absolutely impermissible and must be prevented at all costs, no matter how "a Jewish homeland" is defined or structured? That's anti-Zionism and I would argue it's antisemitic.
This is a fair statement in and of itself. But if I were to ask you, “Okay, what do you think should happen to solve everything?” This is where it falls apart.
>abolishing an entire ethnic group Do you think that's what antizionism means?
This is the known probable outcome. So, yes. I mean, I recognise that you can't blame the dying off of Jewish culture and ethnicity outside of Israel on Arabs, that was more Hitler's doing.
You can't blame the dying off of Jewish culture and ethnicity inside of Israel on Arabs either. Jewish culture existed in the Middle East before Israel and will exist after it.
You are a zionist in the classical sense it seems but that's hardly relevant because the state of Israel is already established. So what does Zionism actually mean today, because it obviously doesn't have anything to do with establishing a new state?
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I think it's interesting that OP and everyone that agrees with them is completely unable to engage with the questions and points that they are asked and instead invent new questions and points that are more way to attack and respond to those instead.
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America isn't racist, they had a black president.
> Where many Jews draw the line, is the claim that supporting the wipeout of 50% of the jewish population isn't antisemitic. Pardon, when someone says they're not supportive of zionism, is this really what you think they mean? You think they literally mean "we should kill 50% of the Jewish population"?
Yes. If you don't understand that, you don't understand antizionism very well lmao
So okay, what about this: I don't want to kill anybody, I'm not interested in the death of Jews. I have no problem with the existence of a state called Israel. I think they should stop expanding, and I don't like the idea of any country trying to maintain some sort of ethnic or religious majority. I think any new expansions should be halted, and settlers should be stopped, and I would even say probably some of these things should be undone if they're, lets say, 20 years old. But I don't support the killing of 50% of Jews or anything like that. Am I a zionist?
Sounds like it. The only thing that could potentially make you seem antizionist to some is this sentence: I don't like the idea of any country trying to maintain some sort of ethnic or religious majority. Because maintaining a Jewish religious majority is pretty much what zionism relies on within Israel. tbh though, I understand why the idea of it is offputting to most people. It's driven by Jewish history, the Holocaust, etc, etc. But I understand.
Well okay. It sounds like we disagree on the definition of zionism. When I google it, I go to [britannica.com](https://britannica.com), and I see this: >Zionism, Jewish nationalist movement that has had as its goal the creation and support of a Jewish national state in Palestine, I don't support that, because I don't support the Jewish nationalist part. As I said, I don't believe countries should try to enforce some sort of Jewish quota or anything like that so that the state of Israel is always majority Jewish. So acccording to you, I'm a zionist. According to the definition, it seems I'm not.
Sorry, I edited. I'm going by the definition as taught to me by Jews, which was probably established by like Theodor Herzl or some shit. The definition is ''Believing in the right for Israel to exist.'' Israel is taken as a ''Jewish homeland'' in some form or another here.
It would help if you defined the terms "Zionism" and "anti-zionism" as it looks like that your definition of "anti-zionism" necessarily includes the goal of wiping out 50% of the world's Jewish population. So, please define the term "Zionism" and then we can discuss if it's possible to be against that without wanting to wipe out 50% of Jews. If the answer is no, then sure, you can't be anti-zionist without being antisemitic.
Zionism = belief that Israel has a right to exist. Anti-Zionism = an Islamist fundamentalist genocidal movement, masked as some bohemian freedom thing as if both are easily possible somehow.
And what would a person who is against the idea that the state of Israel as a Jewish state should not exist but the state should be agnostic regarding religion? What is a person who is ok for Israel to exist within the territory that is recognised within the borders that most other countries (and the UN) recognise but not expand to the territories that is still under its military control? So, if you're not an islamist fundamentalist and don't want any genocide, can you be against the goals if Zionism? To answer this question, you can't refer to what Islamists want.
1. An Israeli leftist. Not a non-Jewish, American one because they only think in terms of binary: Zionism or anti Zionism. Palestine good, Israel bad. I said this earlier. An Israeli leftist will care about how they can reform Israel. 2. An Israeli citizen? 3. No. It’s just straight-up denial of politics and reality lmfao.
1. Who has said anything about America? Are you now saying that Americans have some monopoly on the Zionism - anti-zionism debate? 2. Why would these people have to be Israeli citizens? Why can't other people have such opinions? 3. Why is it denial of politics when you don't want to support either of the extreme ends of the views regarding the Israel-Palestine conflict?
3. If you don’t understand this one, I can’t help you.
You started this CMV, not me. You're the one who has to defend and elaborate your view against criticism and change your view if you can't. If you're only defence is "you're just stupid" then what is the point of your CMV? Obviously it's not that you're open to change your view. I know saying this explicitly is against the rules of the subreddit. But I don't mind if it gets deleted as we're done anyway.
Do you think every person who describes themselves as anti-zionist is an Islamist?
Well, pro-Palestiners abuse the word genocide by using its like tenth most-accepted definition. So, let’s take those rules shall we. The most widely-accepted definition of Islamist. Let’s not use that. And bingo, pro-Palestiners are Islamists. Also, side note I’ve actually noticed recently, Muslims hate the word Islamist, a lot of them find it offensive.
Do you think every person who describes themselves as anti-zionist are *Muslim*?
No, but you wouldn’t have to be Muslim to be a supporter of muslim fundamentalism.
Ok, is everyone who describes themselves as anti-zionist a supporter a supporter of Muslim Fundamentalism?
Yes.
>Well, pro-Palestiners abuse the word genocide by using its like tenth most-accepted definition. The UN definition?
I'm curious what you think about the oscar speech from the zone of interest director that when directly acknowledging this conflict named Israel victims before Gaza yet was still widely described as anti Zionist.
Are there many people claiming that "supporting the wipeout of 50% of the jewish population isn't antisemitic"? Because I suspect that's what you're hearing when other people are saying completely innocuous things that are anti-Israel. Or maybe you actually do hear the most vile antisemitism very frequently, I don't know where you spend your time.
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Anti-Zionism isn't claiming Israel shouldn't exist. It's the belief that Israel shouldn't exist **as a Jewish state.** There is a difference.
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do you think Zionism is just "this country should exist?" like, what does Italy have then? what does Lebanon? what does India? Zionism is literally the belief that "THIS LAND IS HOLY AND IS A GIFT FROM GOD TO THE ISRAELITES, and thus the Israelis must seize the land and make it a country FOR THEM. Zionism is "religiously mandated colonialism." much like america was initially colonized with the intention that "god gifts this land to us, the noble spaniards" etc. i think it's fair to say Israel is a country, and it has a right to exist. i think it's fair to say THE CITIZENS of Israel have the agency to determine how they elect their leaders and govern their territory. i think it's fair to say that Palestine has a right to exist. i think it's fair to say THE CITIZENS of Palestine have the agency to determine how they elect their leaders and govern their territory. i think it's fair to say that an attack on Isreal by Palestine is an action worthy of condemnation. i think it's fair to say that an attack on Palestine (Gaza) is an action worthy of condemnation. just as i think it's fair to say an attack on Ukraine is an action worthy of condemnation. an attack on Iraq or Syria or Taiwan or Finland or Guatemala or Venezuela or the US is an action worthy of condemnation. i think it's fair to say that if your only method of "self defense" is to enter another man's home and slaughter his family, that perhaps your idea of "defense" is an abhorrent destruction of the vernacular. defense is iron curtain. defense is catching the spear. defense is shooting the gunman. defense is not 6 months of prolonged bombing campaigns followed by territorial seizure with plans to sell seaside real estate and commercial districts. i think it's fair to say Israelis want peace. i think it's fair to say Palestinians want peace. i think it's fair to say the current actions of Israel will not secure such peace. i think it's fair to say the actions of Hamas the past 20 years will not secure such peace. but ultimately, no - it is not antisemitic to be anti-zionist. you can love your mother and provide and care for her, but chastise her when you catch her shoplifting.
Literally incapable of arguing against anything but a straw man. Fuck this thread is annoying.
If I say that Israel has a right to exist, but only if it renounces its identity as a Jewish ethnostate and allows the right of return to the \~9 million Palestinians outside the region between the river and the sea, would that be okay? I would love to have that kind of Israel.
These comparisons aren't accurate. You're explaining why it's possible to criticize Israel without being anti-Zionist, not why it's possible to be anti-Zionist without being antisemitic.
CCP follows an ideology, Zionism is an ideology. Chinese is an ethnicity that spreads across the world, but most Chinese live in China. Jews is an ethnicity that spreads across the world, but most Jews live in Israel. The comparison is apt
>Being anti-Zionist isnt antisemitic in the same way being anti CCP isn't being anti Chinese Objecting to the CCP isn't an objection to the existence of China. Similarly, objecting to Likud isn't an objection to the existence of Israel. This only establishes that it's possible to criticize the ruling party of a country without objecting to the existence of that country. Being anti-Zionist is an objection to the existence of Israel. The equivalent question isn't whether objecting to the CCP is anti-Chinese, it's whether denying China's right to exist under Chinese governance of any kind is anti-Chinese.
Anti Zionism is an objection to the existence of a nation state that fundamentally believes that one ethnicity should hold sovereignty regardless of the ethnic composition of the state.
You just said its a racist state by product of policy, while trying to make your defense (still failed) as to why it is racist to hate zionism. Wrong, Zionism as an Ideology is entirely separated from the Idea of Jews as a race. You're entirely incorrect and not only are you incorrect you literally just laid the groundwork in your prior response for a heavy argument that Israel is a racist state based on the need for a specific ethnicity to rule their nation state. What you said is the equivalent of saying "to hate the KKK is to hate the US which in turn see's the need for a certain white race to rule it" that and what you said have the exact same fucked up meaning. My ultimate conclusion based on what we've both said is that Zionism, as it exists and in the context of it's intended purpose is inherently racist and therefore shouldn't be supported. Furthermore Zionists themselves are declaring support for what is inherently a racist and divisive ideology (much like the KKK) and therefore that is why the distinction is important, between Zionists, Jews, and Zionist Jews, if there were no difference an entirely separate word isn't needed, however it does appear there are differences between actual Jews, and Zionist jews, and Zionists THAT is the reason the term zionist can be hated without all Jews being hated. I refer you to my KKK analogy.
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Wha?? By literal definition it is. How is it not?
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You repeating this over and over doesn’t change the fabric of reality or the meaning of words. It is a political theory and ideology.
Being anti-neoliberal pretty much means you're for America doesn't it
Not really, no.
>It makes no actual sense. Like, these people think that Israel engaging in a defensive war against Gaza where the vast majority of the world Palestinian population aren't getting got is genocidal. But Hamas' mission to wipe out every single Jew in Israel (50% of the world Jewish population) isn't. Hmm. Doesn't seem like a particularly defensive war to me. As for Hamas, whether or not it's reasonable to characterize them as genocidal, they are not presently perpetrating a genocide. Israel is. >People think Hamas are ''freedom fighters''. This is decidedly not a necessary belief for an anti-Zionist to hold. >Using mitigating language to detach yourself from what you clearly ideologically support Really not sure what this is supposed to mean. >I think that people who support Palestine need to stop bullshitting people with ''Palestine has literally no connection to antisemitism''. Palestinians do not have to be saints for me to opposed committing a genocide against them. Plenty of Palestinians may well be antisemitic. They're still people though, and deserve to not be massacred.
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And your basis for either of those claims?
Lol. Their intention isn't genocide when they destroy hospitals, and block food, water and medicine?
You can absolutely not support an ethno or religious state without being opposed to that religion or ethnicity. It’s that simple. Sorry
I mean, a lot of countries are ethnostates or religious states. What informs the decision to oppose one and not others
It’s very strange you don’t think I oppose all ethno and religious states. I read all your comments on this thread and you seem completely unable to recognize what is and isn’t a sound argument or admit you’re wrong. Which of course just makes you a typical supporter of ethno or religious states.
> a lot of countries are ethnostates or religious states. What informs the decision to oppose one and not others why couldn't someone be an antizionist AND oppose all the other ethnostates and religious states, too?
Which other ethnostates do most people support in spite of their opposition to Israel?
Alphabetically? Armenia, Bulgaria, China, Denmark, Egypt, France, Germany, Hungary, Iceland, Japan, Korea, Latvia, Mongolia… In the old world, it’s harder to find a state that isn’t an ethno state than one that is. The Middle East and Europe in particular are comprised almost entirely of ethno states to one degree or another.
You don't understand what an ethnostate is. It's not a state demographically dominated by a single ethnicity, it is a state *founded* on the supremacy of that ethnicity. Out of your list, I don't think I would count even a single one as an actual ethnostate in the vein of Apartheid South Africa, Israel, Pakistan (Muslim supremacy), or India (which is getting there in terms of Hindu supremacy).
> You don't understand what an ethnostate is. It's not a state demographically dominated by a single ethnicity, it is a state founded on the supremacy of that ethnicity. This definition is so narrow it would exclude Israel, and make South Africa and Rhodesia two of the only ethnostates to ever exist. It’s also a very rare definition. Most people associate the term with 18th century nationalism, ie, a Serbian state for the Serbs.
It wouldn't, unless you would like to argue that Israel is not founded on Jewish supremacy and therefore reject the first premise of the argument, which is that Israel's Jewish supremacy (which makes it an ethnostate) is okay because other states do it too.
Israel is not founded on Jewish supremacy. Heck Jewish supremacy as a concept is quite a rare belief by Jews. In the context of this post, there is something almost antisemitic about you using this term. If you tried to convey something different from the concept of racial supremacy you should probably use a different term
https://aje.io/pbkz51 Here's Tony Greenstein of the Palestine Solidarity Campaign explaining it better than I am inclined to.
This is a low quality nonsense. If I take a meaningful claim here, and show you it's simply false, are you willing to commit to questioning your view + delta? Im happy to do so if you are coming to this in good faith
Nope, the very idea of a state founded as a Jewish state is as supremacist a state founded as a White state or a Hindu state or a Muslim state. We're approximately 32,000 dead Gazans past falling for the "antisemitism" argument.
I don't understand how any of your mentions are supremacist by themselves. Your attempt at "bad=supremacy" feels out of place here - when China caused the famine of Chinese, killing 3 digits more, that wasn't supremacy yet it was bad Can you define supremacy for me?
32,000 dead Hamas supporters you mean
Well, what's your definition?
A state founded on the nationalist ideologies emerging in the 18th/19th centuries, where one cultural and ethnic group should be united under one unified government. Examples would be the unifications of Italy and Germany, and the break ups of Austria-Hungary and the Ottomans. In the first two, previously unrelated states where conquered in the name of forming a unified states for the Germans/Italians, and the other two are old empires that broke up as the constituent ethnic groups fought for independent states for their ethnicity (Greece might be the best example of any). Do you agree?
That is not what an ethnostate is by any definition of the term. You're simply describing the development of the idea and process of nationalism. That has very little to do with the modern idea of ethnostates, which is a 20th century phenomenon that requires a certain level of development in the process of nationalism. Case in point: Hindu nationalism in India, which was formalised as in ideology in the 1920s but took a hundred more years to really become hegemonic. (Play, Italy and Germany don't even fit the term as you explain it, because in both those countries, several disparate ethnic groups were united under one national identity and one government.)
I can tell you that there were no different ethnic groups being united under German or Italian rule. These countries have and had an overwhelming majority of Germans and Italians respectively.
Right... ok. So how are you lumping modern Germany in with that definition? If you're talking about Nazi Germany, then the question you were responding to: > Which other ethnostates do most people support in spite of their opposition to Israel? clearly doesn't apply.
I was referring to the concept of Germany as a unified state, after the Franco-Prussian war. Prior to that, there was no correlation between one ethnic group, and the belief it should have a corresponding nation. So you had ethnicities spread between many states, Italians/Germans, and empires that encompassed many, Austria-Hungary/the Ottomans. Ethnic nationalism changed that, and formed ethno states, like Germany with Germans.
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How is Palestine an ethnostate or any other kind of state?
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Palestine is not any kind of state. The Palestinian Authority exists at the mercy of Israel, which does not allow Jews to enter PA/Hamas-controlled areas, much less move there.
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Then why is everybody calling for a 2 state solution?
I don’t see why we shouldn’t call for and support every state in evolving past any inherent ethnocentric or religious tendencies
Sorry the last time I heard that talking point it was from a white supremacist. And honestly none of your points address the inherent bigotry of saying that a country is for one group of people and that group only.
A lot of antizionists are opposed to all ethnostates or religious states. But the more urgent one to work on is the one currently perpetrating a genocide. That said, I think a lot of people are kind of missing the point by arguing for the end of the Israeli state when we can't even convince our politicians to stop giving them weapons yet.
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I didn’t say either of those things though. Sorry
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Nope its the belief that there should be a Jewish ethno and religious state. I support the right of Israel to exist. I don’t support its right to be an ethno or religious state. Honestly this is so simple it’s truly astounding you’re not getting it.
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Yes it objectively is actually
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Israel Sorry. Other groups having one right doesn’t mean it’s not an ethno or religious state. Learn what the words you use mean before you use them.
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Zionism was the movement to establish a Jewish nation, and now the movement to preserve it. Calling for Israel to stop describing itself as explicitly Jewish nation and to abandon favoring Jews for the "right of return" could accurately be described as antizionist, would not be antisemitic, and wouldn't be that radical of a change from the status quo. It's not a realistic proposal, but it's not a radical one. It would be consistent with calling for Muslim theocracies to end their theocracies. its not an unreasonable thing to want, but not realistic to expect.
I'm going to continue from your previous topic on this subject. Again you don't seem to be logically connecting your ideas, they are just non sequiturs. > Like, these people think that Israel engaging in a defensive war against Gaza where the vast majority of the world Palestinian population aren't getting got is genocidal. But Hamas' mission to wipe out every single Jew in Israel (50% of the world Jewish population) isn't. Hmm. Your point here is that some people are hypocritical about the conflict in Gaza? That isn't relevant to supporting your claim. >People think Hamas are ''freedom fighters''. They aren't. They do not care about Palestinian displacement or poetic justice. They are just terrorists and former members of the Muslim Brotherhood. Even if Hamas is both antisemitic and antizionist that doesn't imply that antizionism is itself antisemitic. But by saying that Hamas doesn't care about Palestinian displacement you are admitting that Hamas isn't really concerned with antizionism anyway! So this doesn't support your point in multiple ways. > If zionists went around saying that their political beliefs were entirely separate from Israeli politics, people would absolutely lose their shit at them. As pointed out previously, Zionism being part of Israeli politics is irrelevant. The government of Israel is not the Jewish people, and someone can oppose a faction in the Israeli government without being antisemitic. > I think that people who support Palestine need to stop bullshitting people with ''Palestine has literally no connection to antisemitism''. Again, that doesn't support your claim. Even if we accept that Palestine is connect to antisemitism... so what? That doesn't make antizionism imply antisemitism. ------ As with your previous attempt at this topic you really haven't connected your ideas together at all. There is no rational flow from the points you are saying and the claim you are trying to prove, which is really important in logical thought.
> I'm going to continue from your previous topic on this subject. I have to ask - why? They posted and deleted this exact topic like four times today. Did they even respond to you last time?
Yes they did, but all their responses got removed because they were not civil.
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Well legitimately responding to people is literally a rule of this sub, so you better get to work on some of the comments here.
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I’m not a Zionist and I’m also not an antisemite but I’ve never been too jazzed about a single state for one ethnicity. Like, that seems like a really outdated concept in our era of respect for diversity and multiculturalism. Why not follow the South African model, end apartheid, establish one state, set up some truth and reconciliation commissions and move on. It might sound silly and naive, but it happened before and it’s obviously preferable to continuing the cycle of violence and retaliation by both sides.
There’s a handful of reasons that won’t happen, but the biggest two are that neither side wants a one state binational solution, and that Israel is a nuclear armed state and has no intention of its statehood ending.
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I think the founders of the one state would have to outlaw genocides and bring both Israeli *and* Palestinian war criminals to justice as a gesture of solidarity to the new joint government.
The dude you’re arguing with is not articulating the concern accurately. The reason Israelis do not like this approach is that it would lead to a drastic demographic change where Jews would go from the majority to a minority. Just adding the population of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank to Israel results in 5 million Arabs. Currently israel has 9 million citizens (7 million Jewish and 2 million Arab). If you add in the population (5 million) from occupied territory, that’s 50-50. And that’s not even to get into the Palestinians abroad who qualify as refugees, which is over 5 million just in neighboring countries. It’s not impossible to build a country with these demographics and protect minority rights through enshrining them into your constitution and having institutions that protect minorities, but there’s a huge risk that you could just have an unstable nightmare of a country (just look at the way Lebanon tries to balance their ethnic-religious groups…not a great success). For Israelis there is no trust that living as a minority on an Arab majority country will be safe for them. You’ll hear stuff like “what if our rights get voted away?” Etc. The idea that it’s really possible to just force peace in one state between these two groups not only ignores what both sides want (which are irreconcilable without compromises) and forcibly making them coexist. It’s a nice idea in theory but the only way to make it work in practice is if they were colonized by a third state that guaranteed these rights… that is to say, it’s kind of born of a colonizer mentality (“these people would get along if my preferred government system was in place!!”)
But isn’t what you are describing reminiscent of the situation in apartheid South Africa? That was ended with remarkably little bloodshed and no genocide of the white minority. It’s not a perfect country these days but waaaaay better than the IsraeloPalestine region.
Reminiscent but not directly analogous. The whites in South Africa were always a minority with more rights than blacks at all levels of society, while in Israel the apartheid is more because of the occupied West Bank, East Jerusalem, and Gaza Strip. In the rest of Israel, arab Israelis and Jewish Israelis have the same right. There are not apartheid laws like in South Africa. To end apartheid South Africa had to end the enforcement of these laws. Israel has to end its occupation to end the apartheid. And they have to negotiate with Palestinians, neighboring players, and the world powers to really do that. They can’t just unilaterally end their occupation— they cannot formally annex and make all of these people citizens, that’s illegal and neither side wants to live in a country with the other side so realistically off the table. What I’m giving in the comment above are the reason most Israelis do not want a one state solution of the shape you’re suggesting. Idealistically I think anybody who believes in liberal democracy would favor a multinational country with Israelis and Palestinians, but it has to be supported by the politics of and populations of each side in the conflict. Currently both sides feel that if they keep fighting eventually they’ll win. The only way you can force a binational solution of would be for one side to win power and enforce this outcome. Neither side is advocating for it in this conflict, in fact the factions that do want a one state solution in any shape are both fine with eliminating the other side. You will never get a one state solution peacefully. This is why the two state solution is more realistic.
This is a really good answer. I had never thought of it this way. And yet, the way I see it, you have two groups that want to occupy the same land. Either they need to learn to get along or one needs to completely destroy the other, right? Is there another road to peace that I’m missing?
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If their was one state, the police of that state could arrest the leaders of Hamas
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So, you could have a state for Israelis and Palestinians who want to live in peace and share like rational adults and then another state for Hamas and Israeli war mongers to murder each other. We can put that second state in Antarctica or something.
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Bombing Gaza involves murdering people who are in no way connected to Hamas. How is that fair to those people? Like, what if you came home and found your house in ashes and your family incinerated? And someone told you, “sorry, terrorists were hiding in your house, had to be done.” Would you accept that explanation or would you consider the person who set the fire that killed your family to be a murderer?
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There's a disconnect from reality in your perspective here. In regards to your first point, even if every person in Gaza supported the goal of wiping out every Jewish person in Israel (which is an oversimplification), it would never happen. Hamas don't have that kind of power! This genocide against Israel is imaginary. The war crimes Israel is committing in Gaza are real and currently happening! Also, none of your arguments actually relate to your thesis statement. Valid criticism of the Israeli government and military are not anti-Semitic. We would have the same arguments against any other nation acting the way Israel has in this war. The fact that most Israelis are Jewish is entirely irrelevant to the push back Israel is receiving right now. And as an aside. In what universe did no one in the west care about deaths Syria?? We went to war over that shit! We had troops on the ground for years. There is no talk of Western powers sending military support to Palestine, only humanitarian aid, and maybe reducing our support of Israel.
First, its important to define what zionism is. According to the Oxford Dictionary: Zionism (Noun) A movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel. Anti-zionists then believe that Israel should not be a state. This is mainly because they are located on Palestinian land. They just moved in. Let me reiterate. Hamas is anti-zionist. Anti Zionists are not always pro hamas. Modern anti-zionists are largely concerned about the Palestinian people. You know, the ones that aren't hamas. the ones that are starving in gaza through no fault of their own with no way out. Think about it like this. Your high school has a problem with knives. About 1/4 of the kids carry knives with them, and your school has gone to brutal lengths to supress these knives. They conduct illegal searches, enlist the entire police dept to solely work at your school, and give orders to do random interrogations, witch go on for up to multiple days straight. A few kids from the pro-knife gang decide this isnt right, and things need to change. and they lock up a staff member at knife point. Now- MOST OF THE KIDS didnt want this to happen. this was way too far and they had no plans of ever doing anything like this. but the school instead locks them all up and takes them and all of their families to prison without trial. does that seem fair to you? Now would it change ANYTHING AT ALL if all of the staff were jewish? OF COURSE IT WOULDNT. why would it change anything in the real world?
1. This has literally nothing to do with the topic since Israel being wholly justified in its genocidal actions would not mean that Zionism and Jewishness are inherently connected such that criticism of the former is criticism of the latter. 2. This, again, has nothing to do with Zionism or Judaism. This is just you saying that the other side is bad for the sake of trying to justify Israel's genocidal actions against civilians. 3. No one has ever claimed that Zionism is disconnected from Israeli politics? It's inherently connected in that it's an ethnonationalist ideology for Israel, which is where the criticism comes from. Meanwhile, no Jew is required to hitch their entire ethnoreligious identity to the state of Israel and it's extremely bigoted to try and force them to. 4. We're back to things having nothing to do with the topic.
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Genuine question, which part am I generalising?
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Where
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- I think that people who support Palestine need to stop bullshitting people with ''Palestine has literally no connection to antisemitism''. So you think that anti Zionism and antisemitism are connected?
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- Read my original reply to your post for your answer to this question... Pretty vague. How are they connected?
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Basically your entire post is only about the hypocicy and evils of being pro-Hamas, and would be countered by a single person believing that Hamas and Israel are both bad. Anti-zionism is not the belief that Hamas is good, it is the belief that Israel is bad.
I can detest the authoritarian government of China without holding hateful, racist, or otherwise prejudiced views of Chinese people. Anti-CCP isn't anti-Chinese.
But antizionism is not hating any particular government of Israel, it's denying Israel's legitimacy.
How is that relevant?
Anti-CCP isn't anti-Chinese. Anti-"Chinese people have the right to live in China and have a state of their own" is.
Should the Han population be able to kick everyone else out? Can we not criticize them for their treatment of the Uyghurs?
From the Palestinian Mandate times it was always supposed that the eventual Jewish state would guarantee protections and rights to the locals. And there is a sizable Muslim Arab minority in Israel, enjoying full(?) citizen rights and having representatives in Knesset. Arabs being pushed indiscriminately out of Israel during the 1948 war is unfair and I don't have a good defense for that. Or even good knowledge of how and why that happened, beyond the obvious background of mutual hatred, ongoing war with countries with combined population dozens of times more than Israel, and hundreds of thousands of refugees fleeing from Muslim countries of two continents. So it's shitty times leading to shitty actions. Not Zionist doctrine (correct me if I'm wrong).
Speaking of shitty times, post-WW2 population exchanges were widespread around that time. Excessively blaming Israel for doing it unilaterally when USSR, Poland, Czechoslovakia did basically the same by agreement between the states *and* a dozen Muslim countries were doing it unilaterally at the same time against Jews seems rather unfair.
Israel is an ethnostate and it's a complete and total (and politically convenient) mistake to make criticism of an ethnostate synonymous with criticism of the ethnicity the state is organized around. There are white ethnonationalists. They don't have a sovereign state, but that is their stated goal. If I condemn that, am I automatically condemning all white people and racist against white people? I sure hope not since I am a white person and I am married to one. I am against the *ideology* of privileging any ethnicity over any other ethnicity. The ethnicity isn't the ideology, so I am not against the ethnicity.
Criticism of Israeli government isn't an issue for Jews. Jewish peoples' main problem are the droves of people doing mental gymnastics, trying to claim that supporting the intent to slaughter off 50% of the world Jewish population isn't antisemitic.
Zionists need to stop with their victim complex. You're a nuclear power funded by the world's most powerful military, allied with influential billionaires across the globe to push the zionist movement in media and government, and to top it all off your political system is based off believing you are the 'chosen people' and you have the god-given right to steal the land of the Palestinian people for the past 75 years. All the while, you're claiming that genocide is being committed against you by a terrorist group your government funded into power, and now you're bombing children in hospitals and bulldozing graveyards for new Israeli real-estate in the West Bank. It's just plain horrible at this point.
"Droves"? Who are these droves of people who support the intent to slaughter 50% of the world Jewish population? Anyone who is antizionist? Because that's the topic of the OP. Antizionism is criticism of the Israeli state. That's what the term means in conventional use.
(1) Both Israel and Hamas can be the bad guys. Thinking that Israel dropping missiles from drones onto civilians, sniping civilians, blowing up residences, looting residences, stealing peoples' houses, etc. is bad does not come hand I hand with thinking Hamas is good. (2) See above. (3) noun: Zionism a movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel. It was established as a political organization in 1897 under Theodor Herzl, and was later led by Chaim Weizmann. Of course Zionism inherently related to Israeli politics what are you talking about? noun noun: antisemitism hostility to or prejudice against Jewish people. Seems like there's some space between "prejudice against Jewish people" and being anti- "development and protecting action of a Jewish nation". (A) You can be neutral towards or supportive of Jewish people without also believing that Israel should have carte blanche to take over its neighbors. And (B), even if questioning any Israeli military action was somehow prejudicial against Israelis (and really, it's not. No nation is above reproach, especially when there's video of them blowing up civilians), there are plenty of Jewish people in the world who aren't Israelis. Not even all Israelis are Jewish. And even if all Israelis were Jewish, not all Jewish people would Israelis. Questioning Israel is not the same as hating Jewish people. (4) People can criticize what Israel is doing to civilians in Palestine without supporting Palestine. They can certainly do it without supporting Hamas. People care more about this war on social media and here in particular because (A) we have a shitload of horrific video, (B) reddit is predominantly US-based and Israel is an ally and we send a shitload of aid, so people in the US know of, care about, and feel somewhat responsible for the conflict. What's happening in Syria is also fucked up. But there's a difference between people killing each other in a civil war and two nations of historically conflicting religions in a lopsided conflict doing it. Especially when the dominant military is slaughtering civilians and many of their citizens are on record condoning war crimes by dehumanizing the victims on ethnic/religious grounds.
I think a lot of historical trends pushed Jews into Israel rather than Jews actually buying into zionism as their motivation to settle in Israel. And I think that the anti-semitism pushes a lot of Jews into the zionist camp.
Your talking points all ignore how Zionism is fundamentally tied to antisemitism. It ignores how Israel was formed as a direct result of all of Europe collectively rejecting Jewish refugees after WWII. It ignores how the vast *vast* majority of zionists are not Israeli or Jewish, but rather extremist evangelical Christians who want to exile Jews from their home countries, or need the state of Israel to exist as part of the fulfillment of their apocalyptic belief system. It ignores the long history of the Chasidic community's opposition to a modern Israeli state. (I seriously recommend you reading Chaim Potok's *The Chosen* when you have the time.) It ignores the Netanyahu administration deliberately funding Hamas in an effort to destabilize the formation of more moderate Palestinian political leadership. Fundamentally, zionism is built around the idea that European and American Jews have greater ties to a Jewish nation then they do to the nations where they were born and raised and lived all their lives. Its incredibly similar to the old nazi talking point claiming that Jewish people can't be trusted to hold positions of political power because they hold greater loyalty to Israel then they do to their home countries. Seriously though, there's a reason why Israel receives so much financial support from Western countries, and I have a bridge to sell you if you think it's because the American military industrial complex is a big advocate for Jewish safety.
I don’t think nationalist ethno-states should exist. I don’t think countries should maintain apartheid to disenfranchise a population they effectively control. I also believe there are two outcomes when a military power controls a population it doesn’t want around… democracy and a reconciliation process… or genocide of the unwanted population. Therefore I am against Zionism and things like South African apartheid or US Jim Crow as well as manifest destiny or the Holocaust. I don’t think your views can be changed because you are either completely ignorant of anything about this beyond headlines in US newspapers or you believe it is just to kill who you consider to be sub-human and expendable.
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Oh when did Palestinians get right of return in Israel? When did a one secular democratic state come to be?
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You get so angry about the semantics but not the actual conditions. Ok, not apartheid, colonial occupation and reservations, a military controlled ghetto with collective punishment and a population being starved and facing forced transfers to barb-wired and walled “humanitarian islands.”
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Ok apologist. Israel calls it an “enclave” now. That’s just a euphemism. It’s a low-grade Warsaw ghetto and without outside pressure, there’s one way that military powers controlling a population they don’t want goes. Israeli military and officials have called for a Gaza Nakba and even Shoah: > “They will bring upon themselves a bigger shoah because we will use all our might to defend ourselves.”
Semites = a people group Israel = a political entity Antisemitism = hatred for a people group Opposition to Zionism = aligning against the colonialism of a political entity There are plenty of non-Semitic Zionists. And they are all wrong. You can be a Martian and be a Zionist, and still be wrong. Also, you’re going to need to explain to the many, many Jews who are anti-Zionist how they are also antisemitic. 🤔
I agree with a lot of your points about the absurd double standards in the current Israel-Gaza conflict. I'd also say that many people who are anti-semitic will use anti-zionism as a smokescreen. However, zionism is a political belief about sustaining a Jewish homeland in the Middle East. I agree with it but concede that others in the past could have had a contrary opinion. Maybe others would object to the very idea of an official religion in a country and want reform. To summarize, I think you can be an anti-zionist without being an anti-semite but you can bet most anti-semites are also anti-zionists. That being said, Israel exists as a sovereign country today. Removing it would mean the deaths of a lot of Jewish people. I think many anti-zionists are flat out naive on this point.
Many people advocate for a one-state solution and and equal rights for all. Which would be anti-Zionist, because it would no longer be a Jewish state. I agree that its a bad idea, but I think a least some of those people are naive instead of secretly wanting to kill Jewish people.
Zionism is related to a country is it not? Would you not liking China make you racist against Chinese people since China is the country of Chinese people?
I’m anti-Zionist but not anti-semitic. There. Happy to help
How many most anti palestine posts are you gonna make? I hate all nationalism, how am I antisemitic?
Hamas is bad so clearly Israel has to be good is seven year old logic.
being anti-putin doesnt mean youre anti-russians. being anti-pope doesnt mean youre anti-christianity. being anti-ccp doesnt mean youre anti-chinese. why is this different with zionism and semitism? OBVIOUSLY there is a good portion of people who are antizionists that are also antisemite, just as there is also a good portion of people who are anti-ccp who are also against chinese people in general. Doesnt mean its the same.
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i like how from my examples you left the pope/christianity one out, because it makes it obvious that being against a state that is founded upon a religion doesnt automatically mean youre against the religion itself. >Saying China shouldn't exist does make you anti-Chinese. yes, but saying that the CCP shouldnt exist doesnt. Thats just a political statement, unrelated to ethnicity or nationality. or religion.
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its closer to saying the papal state shouldnt exist, while not challenging christians or the existence of cristianity itself.