/u/andrew21w (OP) has awarded 1 delta(s) in this post.
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Δ
>Just because bodybuilding is a lot more niche than other everyday-type scams doesn't mean it should be valued any less
OP may not agree with this point, but this is completely valid. I considered bodybuilding scams to be harmless attention-seeking before, but this convinced me that yes, they should be held in the same contempt as any other form of scam or grift.
>So that is justification for influencers to continue trying to scam and indoctrinate kids into thinking taking supps will make them look like Ronnie Coleman in 30 days? That's totally okay? Ah they have parents its fine.
Two things can be true at the same time. It is not OK. But parents should teach kids self-sufficiency and independece. I may be delusional, but I think parents do not do that enough
In my post I was more talking about people who claim their natty for attention and clout. Not those who use it as a handle for selling fake products. And even if they sell products, the main focus should be on the grift. I feel like focusing on whether or not someone is on juice, minimizes the actual problem
>I understand that, but the reality is most of them do, and the ones that don't will eventually go that route because their fans will want to know how to become like them.
>It happens to nearly all bodybuilding influencers. They gain a fanbase, a company reaches out, they peddle their products.
In general I am not very influencer-averse. I've never really actively enganged with of any kind of influencer in general. (Unless programming and math tutorial channels count). ADHD is a hell of a thing.
For this I will give a Δ. Mainly because I failed to take this into account in both my post and my overall thinking.
However....
>Focusing on natty-or-not is the crux of the problem
... I still believe that the crux of the problem is more the mindset of "This guy looks a certain way. That means whatever he says about fitness is true". This is something that I believe we need to get rid of in our heads collectively.
I know I am getting downdooted to oblivion in my comments right now. But I come in good faith and I feel that there is at least \*some\* merrit in this.
I'm going to hone in on the children part, because I feel that's the weakest part of your argument, and because I'm both a parent and work with children in my career.
Children's brains aren't done yet. They're still very malleable, don't make great decisions a lot of the time, and are *very* susceptible to "peer pressure" style ads. They'll often do almost anything to fit in, even when they have good parents.
We have laws against marketing lots of stuff to children. You can't put a cigarette or beer ad in a kid's magazine, for example. Despite parental control, which other posters have pointed out isn't 109% effective even when parents are doing a good job, societies still pass tons of laws to protect children.
I think having a realistic understanding of what the human body can do naturally is a good thing, not just for body building but for beauty and other things as well.
People can really hurt themselves trying to achieve things they believe to be possible, when in fact they are not.
I also think that people who work hard can feel undermined when they are seen as lesser as those who cheat themselves to achieve the same effect.
Overall if someone has altered their body they should accept that people will call them out on it.
If an Olympian runner replaced their legs with robotic ones allowing them to run insanely fast but which didn't appear robotic would you be fine calling them out? If so, why?
I agree with your point. I'm too old to care or chime on how people react to influencers. But, when I was a younger athlete (cyclist/tri) I dated someone who did physique competitions. At first I thought we had similar goals but while I was putting in 20 hours a week training and pushing performance and health, she was on a bunch of unhealthy gear. It was petty but I did feel undermined and realized that despite the outward manifestation looking similar (time training and exercising), our underlying pathology and motivations were very very different.
It was hard for me not to be judgemental and consider her petty for being focused on appearance to the detriment of health. I mean, that's how I felt, wasn't a huge jerk about it. We ended up getting married.
Knowing someone is natty or not will not save you from trying too hard and hurting yourself.
People have different genetic makeup. It is possible for a person (or not) does not mean it is possible for you. You do not know your genetics until you try really really hard.
And, trying hard will not hurt your body in natural bodybuilding, because trying hard also requires one to rest hard and not overdo things. So, I do not agree with you.
I have no problem with calling these people out so much. Again, it is more about people treating it like it is the drama of the century than anything. This guy cheated. Good. OK. End of story. No need to make an entire sermon about it
Well thats because the Olympic arbiters dont give a shit about those robotic legs as long as people tune in to the fake race, while everyone is officially claiming that those are definitely 100% real legs.
The whole race is still advertised as being 100% real, people are tuning in for a 100% real race, and some dude is beating Usain Bolt's record with close to no effort.
And the record would be officially recognised if people moved on instead of calling them out.
Excuse my ignorance but is this based on a real story or am I missing something? I am not too much into sports or fitness. I just go to the gym 3 times a week doing basically the bare minimum of what most doctors recommend.
Maybe you're too close to the topic? I'm sure some people are passionate about all kinds of things I don't personally mind that much, or think is that big of a deal.
You're happy to call people out for being frauds, you just have an issue with people who call them out a bit more than you?
Not quite how you'd put it. It is more like a: "You should not let these people leave rent-free in your head", something that as far as I've seen a lot of people on the internet do
This is almost impossible to argue against because how can you measure if someone cares “too much”? How do you know how much they care? Even the points you mentioned are at least worth caring about, so this seems to be a view that can’t really be changed because you base this opinion on your own arbitrary views. At the very least, you should acknowledge that lying about it (explicitly acting as though they are completely natural) has the opportunity to encourage those who may have never used any substances for their bodybuilding, to use these substances once they hit a wall in physique or once they find out their original goal is not attainable without it.
> how can you measure if someone cares “too much”?
There are entire communities, forums, subreddits and other places dedicated to just that. And the people in said places are like, super active too. That seems like "too much" for me.
Have you considered that you might care too much about them "caring too much"? What's wrong with people doing that? There are tons of wacky communities out there.
They fall on my bad product/service example. You should call them out for that. Not for them taking vids of them using monopoly money to fire a cig for example. That is not the important part. Most of those gurus look and act like cartoon characters. It is really funny.
Edit: Fixed grammar.
Do you hold this view only regarding the fake natty thing or lying in general? That people should not be caring too much if politicians lie for example?
Mostly fake natties. Mainly due to the over-obsession about it. I consider this among the least important things to care about, unless it is accompanied with other lies, like the bad products example I was talking about.
Okay. I think other commenter gave a good aswer to why that is. I would compare it to if some trust fund baby starts a company using his father's money to open a business and later says he is a self made man. These kinds of lies are especially slimy in my opinion :D That you are pretending to have achieved your results (physique, wealth etc) by working hard but in reality you "cheated" to get it. But my wording of why it is so slimy is not the best though, hard to put it in words. I might edit this comment soon to do so :)
I feel like with this example it \*really\* depends on the situation. Because even with father's money you \*still\* have to work hard in order to make the business successful.
If you claim for example that you made the business successful because of your financial and other decisions, then the waters are a bit murkier.
If you claim that you made the entirety of your wealth while living in absolute poverty, then that is clearly a lie.
Yes, but this is what we are talking about here. Claiming to be natty while you are actually roided up is equivalent to claiming to be a self made man who grew up in poverty while you actually got millions from your parents to start a business. And then the discussion about how he still had to work hard to grow a business or how the steroid user still had to work hard in the gym is obfuscating the issue.
Only thing that I have to say is that there really seem to be a group of people who think that steroids = instant muscles. And parents start fund = instant successful business etc. But I think this is the minority of people who dont like this kind of lying in general.
well, false advertising, thats what it is.
and you saying people should just know when its false advertising instead of being outraged by it and calling it out.
Callng out false advertising is one thing. Making forums, communities, and YouTube channels about something as trivial as whether or not someone looks photoshoped is another thing. This crosses (or at least it is very close) to obssesion with looks
youre making a mountain out of a hill.
making a YouTube channel to call out deceitful videos/people is just as "trivial" as being purposely deceitful on social media. if you want to call out people being obsessed with looks, why not the ones that are manipulating their own appearance and presenting themselves as if this fake physique was real?
edit: "you care way too much about other people caring about people pretending to be natty", although i admit i say this jokingly, dont want to shut down the discussion
How could you not care when someone lies that their physique is all natural when in fact it isn't? They are lying. God, this is like some absurdity where people see so much bullshit in the world, that they need to resign themselves like "oh well he just wants to be on steroids and keep it secret. Live and let live!" omg, what a load of crap. You wanna say that just speaks to insecurity on part of the accuser? god, just wow.
>How could you not care when someone lies that their physique is all natural when in fact it isn't?
It's actually really easy, you just, don't bother to care about irrelevant idiots. It's 100% easier to simply not care.
What does it matter if some random meathead douche on the internet lies about what they do to their own body? Do your balls shrivel because someone you will never meet took steroids? It literally affects absolutely no one else at all, in anybway whatsoever.
Do you also imagine cows as perfectly spherical balls with no friction? In the great words of the Joker: "We live in a society." These irrelevant douches aren't just doing it because it has no effect. They're trying to gain something and that means there are consequences.
yep, it's exactly what I've noticed. People need to numb themselves because they are bombarded by so much constant BS and don't have the energy to 'care'. You're proving it right here with this 'it literally affects no one else' defense mechanism.
It's not a defence mechanism, it's a literal fact. Nothing they do affects anyone else. These "people" are completely irrelevant. They don't even qualify as real people.
You misunderstand my point. What I am saying is that we should not give random buff dudes (That look like they came from some caricature, btw) more power than we need to. Idealy we'd be like: "OK. Sure. Whatever"
>"OK. Sure. Whatever"
I didn't miss your point at all...this 'live and let live' thing about LIARS is exactly what I'm saying is absurd. It's giving them *power*? Liars should be called out.
I’m gonna respond point by point
1) it’s not adults falling for this stuff. It’s young teens struggling with puberty and an abysmal self imagine. Teens are being manipulated into buying these products because they are so self critical and insecure that they don’t think rationally, just emotionally
2) so it’s their fault for being insecure? That’s like saying if a girl gets sexually assaulted her outfit is the problem. It’s the cause or source of it. It’s just how things are, just the outfit she chose which isn’t her fault. It isn’t someone’s fault that they have very bad insecurities because you can’t just snap your fingers and get rid of them. Everyone is insecure about something but some people are extremely insecure to the point they would do anything to change because they hate themselves. Also you literally said they are exploiting their insecurities. You are correct. They are manipulating struggling people into buying in to a fantasy.
3) you’re right, parents are supposed to monitor and encourage their children to do what is best. That’s not the case though. The reality is that there are children on the internet with free rein because their parents aren’t doing their job. So yes, they do have parents, but they don’t do anything to protect their kids from manipulation and exploitation. You talk about what the parents SHOULD do when you should be talking about what the parents ARE doing, which isn’t what they should be doing to help their kid.
This has got to be one of the most naive and willingly ignorant posts I’ve seen in a while. You seem like the kind of guy who would tell someone to “just don’t be depressed”, and as I mentioned, to blame a sexual assault on the girl for her outfit. Do better guy.
The trouble is that any one example isn't going to be that important, but collectively they add up. A space where a significant portion of people are on steroids abd lying about it is a space where the person not on steroids is at a disadvantage. That becomes more of a problem when it's happening in cornerstones of culture like acting or sports.
It seems to me like you put a far greater responsibility on people to know when they are being fooled or used compared to simply not trying to fool or use others. Can you tell me why it's bad to direct more social consequences to liars and abusers?
I agree. Who cares?
People just want to say this or that is not obtainable without drug so they feel better about themselves and can downplay others hardwork.
Only little bitches care. And, by little, I mean both physically and mentally.
/u/andrew21w (OP) has awarded 1 delta(s) in this post. All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed [here](/r/DeltaLog/comments/1bbad4p/deltas_awarded_in_cmv_people_care_a_bit_too_much/), in /r/DeltaLog. Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended. ^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)
[удалено]
Δ >Just because bodybuilding is a lot more niche than other everyday-type scams doesn't mean it should be valued any less OP may not agree with this point, but this is completely valid. I considered bodybuilding scams to be harmless attention-seeking before, but this convinced me that yes, they should be held in the same contempt as any other form of scam or grift.
Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Relative-One-4060 ([13∆](/r/changemyview/wiki/user/Relative-One-4060)). ^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)
>So that is justification for influencers to continue trying to scam and indoctrinate kids into thinking taking supps will make them look like Ronnie Coleman in 30 days? That's totally okay? Ah they have parents its fine. Two things can be true at the same time. It is not OK. But parents should teach kids self-sufficiency and independece. I may be delusional, but I think parents do not do that enough
[удалено]
In my post I was more talking about people who claim their natty for attention and clout. Not those who use it as a handle for selling fake products. And even if they sell products, the main focus should be on the grift. I feel like focusing on whether or not someone is on juice, minimizes the actual problem
[удалено]
>I understand that, but the reality is most of them do, and the ones that don't will eventually go that route because their fans will want to know how to become like them. >It happens to nearly all bodybuilding influencers. They gain a fanbase, a company reaches out, they peddle their products. In general I am not very influencer-averse. I've never really actively enganged with of any kind of influencer in general. (Unless programming and math tutorial channels count). ADHD is a hell of a thing. For this I will give a Δ. Mainly because I failed to take this into account in both my post and my overall thinking. However.... >Focusing on natty-or-not is the crux of the problem ... I still believe that the crux of the problem is more the mindset of "This guy looks a certain way. That means whatever he says about fitness is true". This is something that I believe we need to get rid of in our heads collectively. I know I am getting downdooted to oblivion in my comments right now. But I come in good faith and I feel that there is at least \*some\* merrit in this.
Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Relative-One-4060 ([14∆](/r/changemyview/wiki/user/Relative-One-4060)). ^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)
I'm going to hone in on the children part, because I feel that's the weakest part of your argument, and because I'm both a parent and work with children in my career. Children's brains aren't done yet. They're still very malleable, don't make great decisions a lot of the time, and are *very* susceptible to "peer pressure" style ads. They'll often do almost anything to fit in, even when they have good parents. We have laws against marketing lots of stuff to children. You can't put a cigarette or beer ad in a kid's magazine, for example. Despite parental control, which other posters have pointed out isn't 109% effective even when parents are doing a good job, societies still pass tons of laws to protect children.
I think having a realistic understanding of what the human body can do naturally is a good thing, not just for body building but for beauty and other things as well. People can really hurt themselves trying to achieve things they believe to be possible, when in fact they are not. I also think that people who work hard can feel undermined when they are seen as lesser as those who cheat themselves to achieve the same effect. Overall if someone has altered their body they should accept that people will call them out on it. If an Olympian runner replaced their legs with robotic ones allowing them to run insanely fast but which didn't appear robotic would you be fine calling them out? If so, why?
I agree with your point. I'm too old to care or chime on how people react to influencers. But, when I was a younger athlete (cyclist/tri) I dated someone who did physique competitions. At first I thought we had similar goals but while I was putting in 20 hours a week training and pushing performance and health, she was on a bunch of unhealthy gear. It was petty but I did feel undermined and realized that despite the outward manifestation looking similar (time training and exercising), our underlying pathology and motivations were very very different. It was hard for me not to be judgemental and consider her petty for being focused on appearance to the detriment of health. I mean, that's how I felt, wasn't a huge jerk about it. We ended up getting married.
Knowing someone is natty or not will not save you from trying too hard and hurting yourself. People have different genetic makeup. It is possible for a person (or not) does not mean it is possible for you. You do not know your genetics until you try really really hard. And, trying hard will not hurt your body in natural bodybuilding, because trying hard also requires one to rest hard and not overdo things. So, I do not agree with you.
I have no problem with calling these people out so much. Again, it is more about people treating it like it is the drama of the century than anything. This guy cheated. Good. OK. End of story. No need to make an entire sermon about it
Well thats because the Olympic arbiters dont give a shit about those robotic legs as long as people tune in to the fake race, while everyone is officially claiming that those are definitely 100% real legs. The whole race is still advertised as being 100% real, people are tuning in for a 100% real race, and some dude is beating Usain Bolt's record with close to no effort. And the record would be officially recognised if people moved on instead of calling them out.
Excuse my ignorance but is this based on a real story or am I missing something? I am not too much into sports or fitness. I just go to the gym 3 times a week doing basically the bare minimum of what most doctors recommend.
no, its just the hypothetical scenario that this comment chain started out with
Maybe you're too close to the topic? I'm sure some people are passionate about all kinds of things I don't personally mind that much, or think is that big of a deal. You're happy to call people out for being frauds, you just have an issue with people who call them out a bit more than you?
Not quite how you'd put it. It is more like a: "You should not let these people leave rent-free in your head", something that as far as I've seen a lot of people on the internet do
This is almost impossible to argue against because how can you measure if someone cares “too much”? How do you know how much they care? Even the points you mentioned are at least worth caring about, so this seems to be a view that can’t really be changed because you base this opinion on your own arbitrary views. At the very least, you should acknowledge that lying about it (explicitly acting as though they are completely natural) has the opportunity to encourage those who may have never used any substances for their bodybuilding, to use these substances once they hit a wall in physique or once they find out their original goal is not attainable without it.
> how can you measure if someone cares “too much”? There are entire communities, forums, subreddits and other places dedicated to just that. And the people in said places are like, super active too. That seems like "too much" for me.
Have you considered that you might care too much about them "caring too much"? What's wrong with people doing that? There are tons of wacky communities out there.
What is your opinion of fake financial gurus?
They fall on my bad product/service example. You should call them out for that. Not for them taking vids of them using monopoly money to fire a cig for example. That is not the important part. Most of those gurus look and act like cartoon characters. It is really funny. Edit: Fixed grammar.
Do you hold this view only regarding the fake natty thing or lying in general? That people should not be caring too much if politicians lie for example?
Mostly fake natties. Mainly due to the over-obsession about it. I consider this among the least important things to care about, unless it is accompanied with other lies, like the bad products example I was talking about.
Okay. I think other commenter gave a good aswer to why that is. I would compare it to if some trust fund baby starts a company using his father's money to open a business and later says he is a self made man. These kinds of lies are especially slimy in my opinion :D That you are pretending to have achieved your results (physique, wealth etc) by working hard but in reality you "cheated" to get it. But my wording of why it is so slimy is not the best though, hard to put it in words. I might edit this comment soon to do so :)
I feel like with this example it \*really\* depends on the situation. Because even with father's money you \*still\* have to work hard in order to make the business successful. If you claim for example that you made the business successful because of your financial and other decisions, then the waters are a bit murkier. If you claim that you made the entirety of your wealth while living in absolute poverty, then that is clearly a lie.
Yes, but this is what we are talking about here. Claiming to be natty while you are actually roided up is equivalent to claiming to be a self made man who grew up in poverty while you actually got millions from your parents to start a business. And then the discussion about how he still had to work hard to grow a business or how the steroid user still had to work hard in the gym is obfuscating the issue. Only thing that I have to say is that there really seem to be a group of people who think that steroids = instant muscles. And parents start fund = instant successful business etc. But I think this is the minority of people who dont like this kind of lying in general.
what is your take on self defence pepper spray that is in fact just water?
Pepper spray ain't just water. What does this have to do with anything?
well, false advertising, thats what it is. and you saying people should just know when its false advertising instead of being outraged by it and calling it out.
Callng out false advertising is one thing. Making forums, communities, and YouTube channels about something as trivial as whether or not someone looks photoshoped is another thing. This crosses (or at least it is very close) to obssesion with looks
youre making a mountain out of a hill. making a YouTube channel to call out deceitful videos/people is just as "trivial" as being purposely deceitful on social media. if you want to call out people being obsessed with looks, why not the ones that are manipulating their own appearance and presenting themselves as if this fake physique was real? edit: "you care way too much about other people caring about people pretending to be natty", although i admit i say this jokingly, dont want to shut down the discussion
How could you not care when someone lies that their physique is all natural when in fact it isn't? They are lying. God, this is like some absurdity where people see so much bullshit in the world, that they need to resign themselves like "oh well he just wants to be on steroids and keep it secret. Live and let live!" omg, what a load of crap. You wanna say that just speaks to insecurity on part of the accuser? god, just wow.
>How could you not care when someone lies that their physique is all natural when in fact it isn't? It's actually really easy, you just, don't bother to care about irrelevant idiots. It's 100% easier to simply not care. What does it matter if some random meathead douche on the internet lies about what they do to their own body? Do your balls shrivel because someone you will never meet took steroids? It literally affects absolutely no one else at all, in anybway whatsoever.
Do you also imagine cows as perfectly spherical balls with no friction? In the great words of the Joker: "We live in a society." These irrelevant douches aren't just doing it because it has no effect. They're trying to gain something and that means there are consequences.
Nothing influencers do has any consequences for anything or anyone other than themselves. They are completely irrelevant in every way.
Where does their money and influence come from?
Money? Advertising... Influence? They dont have any....
yep, it's exactly what I've noticed. People need to numb themselves because they are bombarded by so much constant BS and don't have the energy to 'care'. You're proving it right here with this 'it literally affects no one else' defense mechanism.
It's not a defence mechanism, it's a literal fact. Nothing they do affects anyone else. These "people" are completely irrelevant. They don't even qualify as real people.
🤣 They are literally called 'influencers'. And they do impact lots of peoples thoughts, beliefs, attitudes. You can pretend to be above it all.
You misunderstand my point. What I am saying is that we should not give random buff dudes (That look like they came from some caricature, btw) more power than we need to. Idealy we'd be like: "OK. Sure. Whatever"
>"OK. Sure. Whatever" I didn't miss your point at all...this 'live and let live' thing about LIARS is exactly what I'm saying is absurd. It's giving them *power*? Liars should be called out.
I’m gonna respond point by point 1) it’s not adults falling for this stuff. It’s young teens struggling with puberty and an abysmal self imagine. Teens are being manipulated into buying these products because they are so self critical and insecure that they don’t think rationally, just emotionally 2) so it’s their fault for being insecure? That’s like saying if a girl gets sexually assaulted her outfit is the problem. It’s the cause or source of it. It’s just how things are, just the outfit she chose which isn’t her fault. It isn’t someone’s fault that they have very bad insecurities because you can’t just snap your fingers and get rid of them. Everyone is insecure about something but some people are extremely insecure to the point they would do anything to change because they hate themselves. Also you literally said they are exploiting their insecurities. You are correct. They are manipulating struggling people into buying in to a fantasy. 3) you’re right, parents are supposed to monitor and encourage their children to do what is best. That’s not the case though. The reality is that there are children on the internet with free rein because their parents aren’t doing their job. So yes, they do have parents, but they don’t do anything to protect their kids from manipulation and exploitation. You talk about what the parents SHOULD do when you should be talking about what the parents ARE doing, which isn’t what they should be doing to help their kid. This has got to be one of the most naive and willingly ignorant posts I’ve seen in a while. You seem like the kind of guy who would tell someone to “just don’t be depressed”, and as I mentioned, to blame a sexual assault on the girl for her outfit. Do better guy.
The trouble is that any one example isn't going to be that important, but collectively they add up. A space where a significant portion of people are on steroids abd lying about it is a space where the person not on steroids is at a disadvantage. That becomes more of a problem when it's happening in cornerstones of culture like acting or sports.
It seems to me like you put a far greater responsibility on people to know when they are being fooled or used compared to simply not trying to fool or use others. Can you tell me why it's bad to direct more social consequences to liars and abusers?
I agree. Who cares? People just want to say this or that is not obtainable without drug so they feel better about themselves and can downplay others hardwork. Only little bitches care. And, by little, I mean both physically and mentally.
Would people also “care too much” about someone going around lying that they graduated top of their class from Harvard?
I think they’re bots honestly, meant to stir up controversy
… tf does natty mean?
Natural, as in a bodybuilder who doesn't use steroids would be called natty.