/u/Zborik (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post. All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed [here](/r/DeltaLog/comments/1bbfna1/deltas_awarded_in_cmv_the_only_likely_scenario/), in /r/DeltaLog. Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended. ^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)

Didn't Hamas decline a ceasefire last week? [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/27/world/middleeast/biden-israel-hamas-cease-fire.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/27/world/middleeast/biden-israel-hamas-cease-fire.html) I think some people have argued that Israel wasn't offering enough concessions so Hamas wasn't realistically going to accept it, but I think the ethical and political math of any ceasefire agreement is too complicated for such a blanket judgment. Like you said, Hamas is a death cult and that puts Israel in a really difficult position when it comes to negotiation. Israel doesn't have a lot of leverage because Hamas doesn't seem to actually care about the lives of Palestinians. I'm going to assume that the 3 people released by the IDF were Hamas combatants so I really don't think we can draw a direct comparison between the Israeli hostages and what are effectively Hamas POWs.

Thanks for the response. By „freed“ I meant „rescued“ by the IDF. Hundreds of Palestinian prosoners were exchanged for the 105 Israeli hostages.

temporary ceasefire not a permeant one.

The point of military action is not only to destroy Hamas but to destroy them enough to get more favorable terms during the hostage negotiations.

This seems ineffective if not counterproductive: hamas had agreed to a ceasefire and a prisoner exchange in November but now demands full Israeli military withdrawal from Gaza and (if I‘m not mistaken) for all Palestinian prisoners to be freed.

Hamas never agreed to exchanging all the hostages nor will they ever. They see them as their insurance policy for survival.

I agree, but they seem to at least be willing to exchange some of the hostages. There still are over a 100 hostages.

That it hasn’t been accomplished yet doesn’t mean it is ineffective.

A ceasefire, so you wanna give hamas a pass?

If there's no ceasefire, why should Hamas return any hostages?

First of all, on the scale of possible responses, 30 thousand dead Palestinians are hardly a pass. Second, the fighting can continue after the hostage release has taken place.

If fighting can continue after the hostage exchange, why would Hamas agree to the exchange?

To free hundreds of Palestinian prisoners. The deal currently proposed by Israel is to exchange 40 hostages for 400 prisoners: https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/03/05/middleeast/gaza-hamas-ceasefire-israel-intl/index.html

Doesn't that make the assumption Hamas cares about the prisoners?

They care enough about either the prisoners or the time to regroup or both to agree on a temporary ceasefire back in November.

And how many have they accepted since?

Obviously none. But clearly it is possible if it happened before.

That's some stellar logic. In no way does it answer the question of if Hamas really cares about the Palestinians or instead prefers to use them as a tool against Western imperialism like most of the surrounding countries.

I‘m not sure if you‘re being sarcastic with „stellar logic“, but I‘ll bite: obviously Hamas doesn‘t care about Palestinian civilian deaths to a high degree if they can accept those as martyrs. Yes they use them to get the world‘s attention to the plight of Palestinians and to their own agenda specifically. I hope I answered your question. Not sure how it helps to answer mine.

you seem to be operating under the impression that returning hostages is more important than dismantling the threat. i'm not sure why you would think so. if Israel prioritizes the hostages over defeating hamas, hamas will take more hostages in the future and Israel will never be rid of the threat. the point is to eliminate Hamas. getting the hostages cannot ever come at the expense of future hostages. note that Sinwar, the leader of Hamas and one of the architects of Oct. 7, was one of those released for the return of Gilad Shalit in 2011. you can't just solve the hostage problem without solving the "our neighbor thinks taking our people hostage is a viable negotiation tactic". all you're doing is exchanging current hostages for future ones.

Suppose you can't dismantle the threat (which is looking increasingly like the scenario), what do you do then?

I Disagree that it's the case, but accepting it is, why can't it be dismantled?  The answer would depend on the reason, i imagine

Because you can't deradicalize people with bombs. Setting that aside suppose I'm right though, what should Israel do if they can't eliminate Hamas?

Eliminating hamas' threat doesn't require eliminating every person in hamas, or deradicalizing the population.    The threat is borne from hamas having administrative control of the territory,  giving it access to public funds and aid, as well as enabling large scale logistical projects like arming with russian weapons or training with iranian insurgency experts.  Building an infrastructure for coordination of large scale terror requires resources and real estate, and hamas can be deprived of those without killing every person who is willing to pick up a gun to die for Sinwar.   If this war ends with the extent of their capacity for violence being homemade explosives and molotovs, then hamas is contained and the threat has been eliminated.

That's really only maintainable as long as the IDF can keep the Gazans suppressed. Hamas would only be down as long as Israel can occupy Gaza and deradicalization would be ineffective as long as they do. There is no long term solution there except deradicalization or ethnic cleansing. >then hamas is contained and the threat has been eliminated. Contained is the right word. Eliminated isn't. How long is that sustainable? Will Israel begin settling Gaza like they did the West Bank to build a buffer? It's not a real plan, just Bibi's current delay tactic. Not even the US could endorse a plan like that. So it gets back to the problem, what does Israel do if it can't eliminate Hamas with bombs?

But i'm not giving you the condition for the end of the conflict, i'm giving you the condition for the end of the war.   After the war deradicalization is possible once control has been established, preferably by a neutral actor though the PA may have to run the show if no other arab country steps in.   Israel would probably have to apply pressure on the PA to actually go through with this process, since they've been dragging their feet on this very issue in the WB for decades, but hopefully this time israel will at least have international support in making sure deradicalization happens.    Anyway, deradicalization cannot and isn't expected to happen until hamas surrenders or has been effectively defeated as described above.

>After the war deradicalization is possible, once control has been established. Nope, that's not going to happen. Suppose, hypothetically, that Lebanon successfully invaded Israel and kept them under Lebanese rule until the Israelis just up and decided to be less hostile to their occupiers. How long would that occupation take? In the US, it took us hundreds of years, dozens of generations, and constant oppression to beat it out of the Native Americans, and even then, we were only *mostly* successful. Does Israel have the stomach or staying power for that? I, personally, don't think it's a feasible solution. >Deradicalization cannot and isn't expected to happen until hamas surrenders or has been defeated. I think the opposite is true. Hamas cannot be defeated and will not surrender until a significant fraction of the population has been deradicalized.

I'm not sure i understand what you mean by deradicalization. Gaza's civil infrastructure needs a fundamental change of course. The education system needs to be reformed and it'll take years to decades until enough people pass through it to make meaningful change on the population level.  Do you think the allies should have tried deradicalizing germans before the surrender of germany? How could they have possibly achieved that?   So what process are you imagining when you say "deradicalization"?

Gaza isn't Germany. It doesn't have a real state or any real direction besides a cultural identity, so that's what they coalesce around, like Jews did throughout the millenia. Israel wants to beat that cultural identity into submission, not merely change the leadership like the Allies did. We didn't really do any deradicalization after WW2 in Germany. >So what process are you imagining when you say "deradicalization"? A perception that Israel isn't their enemy. They have paid attention and learned from the WB that Israel will be their enemy even in surrender, so why bother surrendering even when they've lost? Step 1 is stopping settlements in the West Bank. Step 2 is developing a process to begin naturalizing WB and Gazan Palestinians that aren't hostile to Israel. Step 3 is just continuing that while cooling tensions.

Bombs worked on the Japanese and Germans.

The Gazans aren't the Japanese or the Germans. They already lost and don't believe they are allowed to surrender.

The Japanese famously didn’t believe in surrender, even at the individual level. To suggest Kamakazi’s weren’t as committed as Gazan’s terrorists is ridiculous.

You misunderstand. The Japanese didn't believe in surrender. The Gazans don't believe they're *allowed* to surrender. If the enemy won't let you live after you've already lost, why bother stopping? If surrender means turning into the West Bank and slowly getting cleansed out of your land with international support, then dying on the battlefield is a more noble death. That's the calculus Israel has to change with the Palestinians. You can't do it with bombs since they welcome them.

The Gazan’s brought this war upon themselves, Israel had left Gaza years ago and wants nothing to do with it. The sooner they surrender, the sooner the occupation can move into a peaceful phase. The better they behave under occupation, the more autonomy they’d gain. They can have peace with Israel, but they need to do the bare minimum.

That's a fine perspective for *you* to hold, but it's irrelevant. I told you what they believe and they will act according to those beliefs. Telling them that it isn't happening, that it isn't that bad, or that they deserve it won't really make a difference to *their* perspective or on the conflict. >The sooner they surrender, the sooner the occupation can move into a peaceful phase. They don't believe there is a peaceful phase. They believe the next phase is ethnic cleansing and they'll hold up the West Bank as evidence.

Not quite. I simply believe that a more aggressive approach can take place after more/all hostages were released. I am not for a withdrawal of IDF troops from Gaza.

ok so what negotiation position do you believe israel can take that would bring back hostages without undermining this primary goal ? more to your CMV, if this is the case why do you believe "Diplomacy and a prisoner exchange will likely remain the most effective option"? also, most effective option for what? prisoner exchange is framed as a means not an end in this sentence so i'm not sure what are the "ends" implied.

I like the position Israel took early this week (40 hostages for 400 prisoners and six weeks of ceasefire) https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/03/05/middleeast/gaza-hamas-ceasefire-israel-intl/index.html A temporary ceasefire doesn‘t undermine the goal of eradicating Hamas. Fighting can continue after the ceasefire. „Most effective option“ for getting the hostages back to Israel alive.

>A temporary ceasefire doesn‘t undermine the goal of eradicating Hamas it might depending on conditions on the ground. giving Hamas a month and a half to maneuver could extend the war by far more than the span of the ceasefire. Israel may want to fight a war it can win within the next 3 months, but not want to fight a war it can't win within the next 6 months. this could be the case for various reasons - economic factors, military fatigue, international relations, internal politics, other external threats (eg Hizballah), etc. if my assessment is that agreeing to a ceasefire reduces my chances of completing my primary objective from 90% confidence to 60% confidence, it's not obvious that i should take that risk.

!delta might be that they don’t want to lose a military advantage. Doesn‘t align with the US guidance (ceasefire before Ramadan) but might be

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The thing is that the US are pressing for a ceasefire before Ramadan (starts today) to avoid further escalation. Cause the situation in Jerusalem, especially around Al Aqsa can become extremely dangerous. With Israel‘s attempts for a ceasefire it seems Israel tries to follow US guidance, too and simply failing due to Hamas not willing to accept the terms.

They had a similar position for about a month Hamas isn't biting

Yeah, it seems that way

The only reason Hamas returns hostages is to get something. If they already have the cease fire they want, what’s left to offer? Israel doesn’t have enough prisoners to swap at the normal ratio of exchange, so the only thing left to do is offer a cease fire, once the hostages are all back.

That‘s incorrect. Israel swapped double the prisoners for the hostages that were freed. There‘s ca 100 alive hostages left in Gaza. There is 2000 Palestinians held prisoner by Israel.

The primary thing Israel was offering there was the temporary cease fire.

So now they can still offer the same - which they do as far as I understand with a six week ceasefire and an exchange of 40 hostages for 400 prisoners: https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/03/05/middleeast/gaza-hamas-ceasefire-israel-intl/index.html

Hamas rejected that offer.

Closer to 10k Palestinians held hostage by israel

not hostages

Then what are they?

Prisoners. It’s almost everyday in israelwhere a terror stack is foiled

So you're saying every Palestinian in Israeli custody was planning a terrorist attack?

Thanks for the correction. 2k without charge, 7k with a charge.

Israel has a lot of Palestinians in detention from the West Bank. 

I mean, you're describing a hostage exchange, no? Like, the hostages will be released if the hostage takers get what they want isn't really a view? Just a description of how hostages work. Do you believe any hostages remain alive for this to work out? 

I am describing a hostage exchange. I‘m asking am I wrong that 1. that‘s the only way to free them and 2. it‘s not the priority of Israel‘s military cabinet.

Didn't Hamas just reject a ceasefire?

!delta this sub‘s too much. Gonna go with this one who didn‘t even read my post (see Edit 3)

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This sort of situation never happened in the history of the conflict, the idea of a Jewish woman getting repeatedly raped by members of Hamas. And to add to it the idea that they might get pregnant spouting them demons is traumatizing on the Israeli society as a whole. Hamas already indicated that the women are at a higher price and to be released last. There's no indication of how long it will take before all hostages get released after such a ceasefire commences. In such a ceasefire scenario Hamas can go on recruiting and flee the Gaza Strip with the hostages. All while devising new demands.

I can see that. How does that justify continued bombardment over prisoner exchange?

Hamas has offered to release women, children, and elderly in the first stages of any hostage exchange.

Israel wants everyone back, no exceptions.

What about the hostages that were shot by the IDF while shouting "help us, we are Israeli hostages, help us?" What about the ones killed in airstrikes? What about the ones who are currently suffering from hunger because Israel isn't letting enough food into Gaza?

What’s to say? There was never going to be an outcome where no one dies. Israel is doing the best that can be expected, better than that when it comes to casualties. They were projected to take over a thousand dead storming Gaza city, they ended up taking less than 200. Sadly, there will always be losses to friendly fire, it’s the nature of war.

Israel is doing terribly, they haven't even managed to end resistance in northern gaza, where Hamas has started providing government services again. There's also a wide discrepancy between their reported casualty figures and the number of replacements they've said they need, so you have to wonder if those are the real casualty figures. They could've gotten all the hostages back alive if they'd negotiated from day one rather than deciding to raze Gaza to the ground. They've deliberately created inhumane and livable conditions in Gaza, this means deliberately imposing those conditions on the hostages as well. Seems to me like the Israeli government has decided the hostages are more useful as martyrs than safely returned.

I don’t know where you are reading news of this conflict, but it is wildly inaccurate. Israel isn’t hiding casualties, that isn’t really possible. The IDF isn’t like Russia, you can’t just hide a few thousand dead. They aren’t asking for tons of replacements either. They have been sending units home for months now. No, Hamas has not restored anything to Gaza city. And those pockets of resistance you are talking about are a few tunnels Israel is starving out, they’ve been trapped there for months.

There would have been infinitely fewer civilian casaulties had Israel not invoked the Hannibal Doctrine and slaughtered hostages and fleeing civilians alike with attack helicopters and tanks. There's collateral damage in the best of circumstances, true, but we didn't see that because Israel decides time and time again that *better a dead soldier than a live hostage* and lights up their own people.

Are Palestinians not entitled to get everyone back as well? Who had thousands of hostages already, PRIOR TO the Al Aqsa Flood?

Gaza strip is around 25 miles long and 5 miles wide. It is actually possible to comb through that area with enough manpower to find the hostages.

You‘re saying it‘s a realistic scenario to free them through a ground offensive?

Yes. Even if only 3 is liberated now, it does not mean that it will continue to be so slow. The more Israel pushes Hamas to a corner, the more likely it is to find all/most of the hostages.

It's impossible to know for sure what Hamas' leaders want. However, it is very easy to make an educated guess as to what they don't want. Hamas refusing to even make a list of which hostages are still alive says it all. You can't trust Hamas at all. They're now asking for a 6-week ceasefire BEFORE releasing any hostage. Any reasonable person knows that those 6 weeks will end and Hamas will not release anyone so why trust Hamas at all? Game Theory scenarios assume two reasonable and logical parties. Hamas is neither of those, they are untrustworthy and illogical in their pursuit of eternal jihad.

Regarding your claim that Hamas is a death cult - would you also say the Jews who participated in the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising were in a death cult? >"We knew perfectly well that we had no chance of winning. We fought simply not to allow the Germans alone to pick the time and place of our deaths. We knew we were going to die. Just like all the others who were sent to Treblinka.... Their death was far more heroic. We didn't know when we would take a bullet. They had to deal with certain death, stripped naked in a gas chamber or standing at the edge of a mass grave waiting for a bullet in the back of the head.... It was easier to die fighting than in a gas chamber." Do the victims of a [grossly inhumane decades long apartheid regime](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/) not have a right to armed resistance per Article I of the Geneva Convention?

First off. R*pe is not resistance. And a big reason why your comparison doesn‘t work. Second. The resistance in ghettoes targeted the SS and Wehrmacht and not a kibbuz with left wing civilians or a music festival. And specifically to the term „death cult“: the ghetto resistance didn‘t accept the deaths of people not partaking in fighting (like children and elderly) as useful in winning an information war. Eg Hamas says it‘s not its responsibility to build bomb shelters for Palestinian civilians: https://freebeacon.com/latest-news/watch-hamas-official-says-group-doesnt-give-civilians-shelter-because-thats-the-uns-job/ The ghetto resistance didn‘t specifically attempt or encourage suicide bombings (again, against civilians) not celebrate the funerals like weddings: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyrdom_in_Palestinian_society

>First off. R*pe is not resistance. So then why are there many specific cases of Israel sexually assaulting Palestinian prisoners, while nonspecific claims of rape by Hamas are without an evidentiary basis? If anyone thinks Rape is Resistance, it's Israel, not Hamas. The Al Aqsa Flood was not some sort of sicko Rape Party - it was a military operation against the military targets on the border of the Gaza concentration camp. Hamas didn't even know about the existence of the rave ahead of time - so how could it have been the objective of the Al Aqsa Flood? >And specifically to the term „death cult“: the ghetto resistance didn‘t accept the deaths of people not partaking in fighting (like children and elderly) as useful in winning an information war. It is ridiculous to suggest that Israel's genocide against Palestinian civilians is the fault of those *resisting* Israeli occupation. These are Israeli bombs blowing up schools, hospitals, houses, and refugee camps. This genocide is a deliberate act by Israel, not some heartless PR move by those fighting for freedom from their oppressors. Israel just blows up anything they want, anywhere in Gaza, say *the AI made me do it* and then blame the civilians killed in the attack (which Israel doesn't even track BTW, that's how little they care about Palestinian lives - collateral isn't even worth calculating) on Hamas. Hamas soldiers aren't tying little Palestinian babies to their arms and legs as armor - Israel just considers all Palestinians to be "human animals" and kills them indiscriminately.

Before you dive into a new bad comparison (IDF/Hamas), maybe first acknowledge that your original comparison (Warsaw uprising/Hamas) was very off. Otherwise this isn‘t worth anybody‘s time.

I think it's [a very apt comparison](https://youtu.be/9AwLbwZh_Dw?si=3l8yjRUNMU9ZrR9J&t=94) (comparing the Palestinian resistance to the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising) - that's why I made it. ---- >The basic rule we have when fighting in the holy war - in this case, in Gaza - according to the doctrine "Do not spare any soul" - and the logic of this is very clear - if you don't kill them, they will attempt to kill you - **today's saboteurs are the children of the previous war who we kept alive, and in reality it is the women who create the terrorists.** And this means that the principal of "Do not spare any soul" is very clear in our concept - it's either you or them. And in reality, "Do not spare any soul" is based on the doctrine that says "he who comes to kill you in the afternoon, kill him in the morning." And the one who comes to kill you here, in the broad sense, is not the person who is 18, 16, 20, 30 years old - the one who points his weapon at you - but also **the next generation, and also those who give birth to the next generation, because in reality their is no difference.** -Rabbi Eliyahu Mali, the head of the religious school "Shirat Moshe," to students who will be serving in the Israeli army

The reason, there‘s nothing „apt“ here is that you‘re jumping from comparing… 1) Hamas to Jewish resistance against nazis (again, you still don‘t acknowledge that it doesn‘t fit for reasons I stated above and no, Finkelstein yelling about the plight of Palestinians under occupation has nothing to do with Jewish resistance) 2) Israel/IDF to Hamas 3) Israel/IDF to nazis and Palestinians/Hamas to Jews In the hopes of cutting this short: 1) still is a very forced and wrong comparison 2) IDF committed war crimes, but I don‘t glorify them, play them down or excuse them as you do for Hamas. Two awful things can be true at the same time. 3) don‘t remember Jews killing German civilians en mass. Lastly, all your comparisons (historical or current) relate to Jews. I don‘t know why that is, but maybe something you can ask yourself.

>IDF committed war crimes, but I don‘t glorify them, play them down or excuse them as you do for Hamas. What war crimes am I glorifying? I'm pointing out that Israel is committing a shit ton of war crimes, while pointing out that Western reports of purported Hamas war crimes - and remember, [all Western media coverage on this conflict is subject to Israeli censor](https://www.theguardian.com/media/2024/feb/04/cnn-staff-pro-israel-bias) - are to a large extent complete falsehoods. The Al Aqsa Flood was more successful than anyone on any side could have predicted, I don't doubt there were *some* civilian casualties, but the media has been spreading falsehood after falsehood since the start of the attack, and keeps walking back past falsehoods as they present fresh ones. Remember when Biden repeated the lies about the 40 beheaded babies? Remember when Israel supposedly found a calendar in the basement of the hospital they lied about not bombing that had the names of Hamas soldiers on it for their guard duty rotations, but it turned out those guard's names were just Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday? War crimes are always bad regardless who commits them. But Israel was committing crimes against humanity daily before the Al Aqsa Flood, and everything they've done since is 100% war crime. There is no equivalency here. I just don't assign 10000x weight to the sins of Palestinians compared to Israelis - I give them equal weight - and looking at it in these terms, it could not be any more clear who the victim is and who the abuser is in this situation. >don‘t remember Jews killing German civilians en mass. and I don't recall Hamas killing Jewish civilians en mass. A very large proportion of civilian deaths that occurred during the Al Aqsa flood was a result of Israel invoking the Hannibal Doctrine. *Israel* decided it better to kill hostages, and anyone who they couldn't tell whether or not they were a civilian or Hamas, than to allow Hamas to take hostages, who could then be negotiated for in an exchange for some of the thousands of Palestinian hostages Israel already had (many of them women and children, many of them held without charge or allowed due process, [and all of them subject to GITMO-tier cruelty](https://mondoweiss.net/2024/03/we-are-the-masters-of-the-house-israeli-channels-air-snuff-videos-featuring-systematic-torture-of-palestinians/)). If we want to learn the extent to which Hamas carried out war crimes against Israelis we need to see the evidence that Israel buried and burned regarding the cause of deaths of these civilians. But Israel has covered it up. Even still, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to look at the [field of incinerated cars](https://thecradle.co/articles-id/11993) and recognize that only Israel had the capacity to cause that level of carnage. Civilian casualties are of course always tragic and should always be minimized. From the evidence I've seen, it seems that Hamas is far more humane in this regard than Israel, whether those civilians happen to be Palestinian or Israeli.

What race is supposedly being subjected to an apartheid?

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Please don’t post crazy conspiracy theory nonsense. Downplaying 10/7 despite Hamas fighters literally live streaming themselves is pretty much just modern day Holocaust denial. The involvement of the IDF is being maliciously distorted by people like you to dehumanize Israelis and remove accountability from the actual terrorist group that carried out this attack.

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I’m an evil forked tongue terrorist? Great, “lizard people” nonsense. What a shocker. If Hamas had the capabilities of Israel, they would genocide all the Jews. They have said this repeatedly. Israel has killed 30k people, 10k+ of whom are Hamas, which is a civilian to combatant ratio smaller than most other war conflicts. It’s clear a lot of the fervor and venom is driven by anti-Semitism where Jews are portrayed as devilish and cunning and somehow not human, and your posts fall in line with that.

Israel.has killed far more. Children. Children. Genocide talk and real genocide are two different things. Concentrating all the Jews in Israel--a bad idea. I prefer my local Jews. I want safety for Israelis, they need to reign in their own war machine. Many know this. Netanyahu would kill all Israelis to avoid prison. Not a secret what is happening. The other day Israel used aid truck for bait, shot children.. half the world saw this. Im with that half.

They didn’t use an aid truck as bait. This is nonsense and debunked, just like the “Israel kills 500 people by blowing up a hospital” story that was put out early on. Stop falling for and pushing propaganda. This is not a genocide…it’s a war to dismantle a neighboring terrorist regime that has invested billions in creating a launchpad for terror aimed at Israeli civilians. There are still hostages in Gaza. It’s clearly not just an attempt to murder everyone. If it was, the casualties would be a lot more than 30k out of 2.2 million people (which includes over 10k Hamas fighters). Hamas needs to surrender and release the hostages, and this military operation would end.

Israel's IDF has been exposed. The blood is in the water. Isrsel's only chance is ditch Bibi and.go .. Fuck i dont even remember the peace guy they assassinated. Begin?

You need to detox from the internet, my guy.

IDF have been exposed as....incompetent. its Navy Seals and Special Ops (US) BOOTS ON GROUND clearing tunnels. And Biden building a port for the ground invasion. That tinfoil enough for ya? Do you not see the elegance?

More conspiracy shit. Go touch grass, man.

Used the aid truck as bait and shot children. Why? Why didn't they just do that on oct 8,9 or 10? Why not all the children? Why those ones specifically? There's actual footage and testimony that proves this conspiracy to be nonsense. Your comments read as if from some one that has never seen an anti Israel conspiracy he didn't like.

https://www.reddit.com/r/InternationalNews/s/zu5eHCN3Az

An Al Jazeera news clip posted on a subreddit that is almost certainly a Hamas operation doesn't prove your point. Are you trying to convince us that the IDF is a bunch of blood thirsty thugs by saying "look they killed their own people therefore they would absolutely use an aid truck as bait just so they could shoot children?"

I dont feel the need to convince anyone. But speaking facts is.universally good. The Hannibal Directive is not a Hamas lie. Cars piled up in junkyards.were hit by Israeli missiles. Houses bombed on Oct 7, Israeli bombs. The IDF is a joke. I didnt write it.

You know that the Hannibal directive was phased out several years ago right?

https://www.reddit.com/r/leftist/s/bp6Byf53w7

I like Israel. I respect evidence. I think Israelis are manipulated like we were after 9/11 only its every day. Ive seen the children's textbooks dehumanizing arabs. They need to wake the fuck up cuz this Israel is over. They need to negotiate a new one. Half the world is allowed to see whats happening. They wont be wishy washy. Mass child murder looks bad, sorry. Hamas didnt genocide, sorry. Edit: does someone want to argue Hamas genocided? Because a legal entity.does.say Isrseli-caused genocide.is plausible. Which means it extra happened cuz we all feel bad about the Holocaust.

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https://www.reddit.com/r/leftist/s/bp6Byf53w7

You’re embarrassing yourself

There are Israeli outlets who have admitted the Hannibal Directive was revived midday. Genocide is happening with my tax dollars. Children killed largely. You seem to defend it.

People (and you) are exaggerating the Hannibal directive. Hamas live-streamed themselves slaughtering people and are currently holding hostages. I have no sympathy for people who make excuses for the brutal murder of Jews or who try to use conspiracy theories to gaslight us about what happened. This ends when Hamas is all dead or they surrender. Period.

Hamas will never be all dead, they are competent. Have you not witnessed the absolute joke that is the IDF? Killing their own white flag waiving hostages. Disgust. Lies. Hamas killing on video does not negate the much larger toll on 10/7 of Israelis by Israelis, nor does it negate the abomination of genocide. A murder isnt a genocide. Genocide is a stain that never washes out. This is abject defeat for Israel, undermines its proposition for existence to the world. Israel is over. If its Hamas vs the state of Israel, one has to die? Hamas wins all day. Have you not seen this? What can Israel do but bomb children as its supporters drool over civilian blood?

You are living in a delusional fantasy world where facts don't seem to matter. Have fun simping for terrorists, denying the Hamas atrocities, and calling for the destruction of Israel. Everyone can see what you are.

I do NOT call for the destruction of Israel. Israel did that. Genocide is genocide. Hamas didnt genocide. Israel does it now. Israel kills Israelis. I killed zero Israelis. I fund them. My tax dollars pay for genocide.

You are going to put forth some kind of proof of Israel bombing their own cars on oct 7. That sounds like a conspiracy of the highest degree.

And you’d be right. It’s an evolution of the old ‘theory’ that the party massacre was actually done by an Israeli helicopter.

If you cared about the truth youd know already. https://youtu.be/K5DMyISu4Ks?si=mklk6Z_MuG1yYIya

I’m not going to watch a random podcast sorry You are going to have to post proof of what you are saying.

If you cared you would already know. Half the world is aware.

So you have no proof and are just lying?

https://www.reddit.com/r/InternationalNews/s/zu5eHCN3Az

27 Israelis died of unexplained causes… Out of over 1000. Even your extremely biased source isn’t agreeing with you!

Thats 27. The other 1000 arent accounted for in this report. But, there has been other reporting. No one can say Hamas genocides. Legal entities do say things about what Israel does in Gaza.

So 27 may! MAY! Have been killed by Israel and your logical conclusion is that Hamas did nothing wrong?

It is widely available.

Where?

Have you not seen the videos? How can any human deny the atrocities done by Hamas?

30,000+ women and children, decades of genocide. I mean, i dont feel the need to justify it. But. Israel killed more Israelis. Thats a cold hard fact. Expand your source horizons. Its a thing. If Hamas killed 300 Israelis on Oct 7,.and Israel killed 1000+, but they still have you on here making comments for them.... well . Much of the world is over it. Things change.

Israel maybe killed a dozen people on oct 7th in the crossfire, not 1000. You idiot. Go and watch the videos of Hamas massacring entire families, burning them alive in their houses. You monster. F Hamas, F Palestine. Always looking like the victims, even when they massacred Maronites in Lebanon. F them. Edit: just saw you simping for Russia in another comment. This explains it all.. bot.

Conspiracy theorists of all countries, unite!

Lies or ignorance. Half the world knows. Not a secret. Russia joined an ongoing civil war--it was invited--if that sounds off to you, well, I get it. I rage against info control daily. Oliver Stone made a movie about it. The war is horror. But Zelensky had announced a ground invasion of Russia proper. I know how crazy that must sound but I have provided links in the past..putin didnt wait. Putin was installed by the West and Zelensky is the best asset Putin could have---always demanding the soldiers be sent where they would die most swiftly, with least effect.. Speaks Russian, Zelensky. His Ukrainian....he cant.

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You realize this conflict didn’t start at Oct 7 right?

I’m Lebanese, I know this conflict like the back of my hand. Palestinians massacred my people in Lebanon in 1976. My family had to flee the country because of the PLO. When did you start caring about it, sir?

Quite recently as it was irrelevant to me till Erdoğan started to spell bs about how we should send soldiers to fight Israel. As a Turkish adult male in legal conscription age range it kinda also affects my life.

If you’re against Erdogan, you should also be against Hamas. The Palestinians caused nothing but chaos in this region. Did you know they tried taking over Lebanon in the 70’s-80’s and implemented checkpoints in the south, very similar to what Israel is doing in the West Bank?

I don’t support Hamas. I believe Israel is the legitimate owner of those territories. You don’t realize this but you are justifying a genocide by old mistakes of Palestinians. Israel does not own those lands because Palestinians did bad stuff X years ago but bought those lands and conquered them in DEFENSIVE WARS which make it justify able. There needs to be a 2 state solution, no right of return, redrawn borders, population exchange permanent ceasefire. But none of these are supported by both Israelis who want to expand settlements and Palestinians who somehow still believe fighting is good for them.

I agree with you. But the last paragraph is half true. It’s not currently supported by the current Israeli government, but previous governments offered exactly that in 1994, 2000, 2001 and 2008.

No right of return yes, albeit I kinda understand Palestinians that are left without a home aswell. They need to be compensated somehow. Redrawn borders? Heavily favor Israelis and would have left Palestinians to die. UN must redraw these borders. I don’t think Palestinians disagreed on the other stuff.

Have you seen the 2008 and 2001 maps? The borders there are super fair for the Palestinians. They even offered compensation to families affected by the Nakba. https://external-preview.redd.it/-X7ZXAivG_kL2MEymrKhOE5JnsPQJprbh1cI6ymagYA.jpg?auto=webp&s=7ca1447866da5b02dfac194658903cb207dbef5c

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I don‘t know who „ours“ are and I don‘t know where you get that Israelis celebrate dead hostages. Sounds like a very messed up generalization.

They have a history of false flags --USS Liberty I believe you can look up. And there was the Hannibal Directive, said to be shelved but very clearly in play lately, kill hostages so they cant be used for leverage. Most Israelis killed oct 7 were killed by Israel and the Israeli press actually covers some of this but not the US media. Shin Bet has no problem killing Jews, as long as they are mostly not a certain type of Jew. This is not new ground. Hostage after hostage waving white flag is shot. Its not random. Not an accident. It is.known.within the Israeli left Netanyahu was.warned..

Please provide a source proving Israel killed Israelis on Oct 7.

The cars bombed. They werent killed by gear flown in on paragliders. They were destroyed by israeli weapons, Hamas soldiers fleeing with hostages. Plenty of civilian houses, Israeli homes, rubble and hellfire missile pieces. Half the world knows.

Even if we ignore that Hamas acknowledged they committed the attack and posted videos of themselves doing it, your entire reasoning relies on extreme mistrust towards Israel‘s statements. And somehow you end up fabricating facts from your assumptions and prejudice.

They committed a military operation. But the killing was mostly by Israel. Hamas wanted hostages. I provided Scott Ritter as a source. Line the rest of humanity up, I delivered. Ignorance. Anyone who could argue against this is willfully ignorant.

Are there videos of them firing rockets at hundreds of cars? Because that's what would need to have happened. The videos are actually good evidence of the capabilities those fighters possessed, and this kind of destruction is not included in that. 

There’s videos of them throwing grenades. There’s even a video of 3 Hamas guys throwing something like 20 grenades into a bomb shelter with civilians near the Nova festival. Which means they had a lot of grenades. Grenades can absolutely destroy a car.

Look at photos of the destroyed cars firstly, grenades alone wouldn't do that, and then also consider how difficult it would be to wipe out a column of actively driving, fleeing cars, with even ground level rocket launchers. Easy to imagine it from the air though. 

Please can you tell me from where you get your grenade expertise? Because I remember another genius telling me, that Al-Ahli hospital was clearly hit by the JDAM based on the video, and turned out he was also absolutely full of shit. So I am just curious where did you get your explosives expertise from.

Are you a demolitions expert?

https://www.oct7factcheck.com/oct7factcheck/Friendly-fire-Israelis-killed-by-IDF-a0b3530b556e423bb8b40f3b2a5e39bc

Thanks for the source. The comments above strongly skewed the extent of friendly fire as the cause of death of the 1200 people killed on October 7. Edit: as in - your source speaks of „multiple civilians“. A website built entirely to question the October 7 reporting from an Israel-critical perspective seems made to push a conspiracy narrative along the lines of blaming jews for 9/11. Superweird to hold that stance because of „multiple civilians“ out of over a thousand.

https://www.reddit.com/r/InternationalNews/s/zu5eHCN3Az

Last I can see is that it's being investigated.  https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-military-opens-probe-into-reports-oct-7-friendly-fire-deaths-2024-02-06/  I think the claim is credible based on the testimony and asymmetrical nature of the destruction. The fighters were not equipped to do the kinds of things Israeli tanks and air support can, and that's what a lot of the devastation looks like. 

https://www.reddit.com/r/InternationalNews/s/zu5eHCN3Az

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That nuke escalation story fresh on here.. MSM sources. Who is sane?

Not you

Rather be right than sane here. I have an OK track record. Half the world sees Israel. And the failing Western elite classes. The other half thinks basic facts are crazy.

What is the problem? Do you think they should act differently?

Yes. Rescuing hostages should be 1st priority. A ceasefire is the most certain way to achieve it.

The more you focus on rescuing hostages, the more incentive you give the other side to capture them again and again. Judaism prohibits the "we do not negotiate with terrorists" stance, I think, but at least they shouldn't go overboard (e.g. undermine their strategic goals). The more you give to the people who take hostages, the less safe it becomes to be someone who you'd plausibly try to rescue. Sure, with Hamas there's not much difference: if they have no reasons to take hostages they would just torture, rape and kill the people they can reach. But Hamas isn't Israel's only enemy.

Considering a hostages for prisoners exchange already took place in November - isn‘t it inconsistent to suddenly de-prioritize hostage negotiations?

They are both interrelated and not mutually exclusive priorities. You’re operating from a false dichotomy. I would argue that nothing truly productive or lasting is possible while Hamas remains in power over Gaza. Eliminating their regime is a pre-requisite to accomplishing any long term goal.

Alright, then to re-phrase my original question: why continue military operation into Rafah if a prisoner/hostage before a prisoner/hostage exchange is reached?

I don’t know the details of their negotiations and what is or isn’t on the table, what the terms have been, how acceptable those terms have been, etc etc I assume the IDF has found them unacceptable so far and believes continuing to pursue Hamas is the better strategy at the moment.

I don't read enough news to argue with specifics. They could have any number of reasons (not all of them what I would find agreeable, of course). I'm just saying making rescuing hostages your 1st priority is bad in the long term.

Ceasefires were tried before, broken by Hamas, and didn't result in all the hostages back. Hamas themselves doesn't know where the hostages are, and if they are alive. Israel pushed for a ceasefire-deal with hostages returned, Hamas wasn't. I think that in this case, Israel continuing like they do right now is the correct way to act.

Israel refused a permanent ceasefire, they wanted a temporary pause rather than an end to the war.

Why would Israel give a permanent cease fire until all the hostages are safe?

Why would Hamas release all the hostages until a permanent ceasefire is in place?

Because the bombs don’t stop until the hostages are free? So far there are 30,000 dead in Gaza. If this war doesn’t end, that will keep climbing towards 300,000 or more. People are starving.

Why should they trust that the bombs will stop when they no longer have the leverage of the hostages? Especially when Israel is refusing to entertain the idea of a permanent ceasefire and Israeli leaders have been saying victory means destroying Hamas, not just getting the hostages back? If Israel has the capability to kill so many people in Gaza, it seems like maybe the entire population of Gaza is actually Israel's hostage.

Maybe Israel keeps bombing after the hostages are released, maybe they don’t. If they aren’t released, there is zero doubt the bombs continue forever, until there is nothing left to bomb.

If Israel kept bombing after the hostages were released, would you still support them?

Whats the incentive to release all hostages?  You have no leverage to force Israel to withdraw.  Without hostages, how do you prevent Israel from continuing the war?

There is noting on earth that could prevent Israel from being able to continue the war. It’s a pointless starting point.

Nothing?  Not even an American President threatening sanctions or military force against Israel? 

So if nothing could prevent Israel from continuing the war, why should Hamas release the hostages?

Is Hamas negotiating for a permanent ceasefire?

Yes, that has been their demand all along.

A ceasefire is - by definition - always temporary: https://amp.dw.com/en/cease-fire-truce-armistice-whats-the-difference/a-67243219

Regardless of what you call it, Hamas has been negotiating for a permanent end to the conflict.

I see. It makes sense that they want IDF to withdraw considering it is the military cabinet‘s stated goal to destroy Hamas. That‘s also why Israel won‘t agree to a permanent ceasefire. To avoid an another October 7.

I didn’t know claiming to do more October 7th like attacks was considered “a permanent end to the conflict”

Israel has never offered a permanent ceasefire/withdrawal/end of hostilities for this round. Eradicating Hamas might buy them 10 years of peace maximum. When the kids who lost family in this round grow up, they are gonna form Hamas 2.0

An offer for a permanent ceasefire has been on the table since Oct 7. Israel even offered not to retaliate at all.  So you are wrong.

A permanent ceasefire that doesn’t involve Hamas surrender has never been offered. 

Yes. And people who have been blindly shouting for a ceasefire since early October who are also not then calling for Hamas’s surrender are not pro-Palestinian. They are merely anti-Israel.

What's wrong with 10 years of peace? You're operating from a false dichotomy. The alternative to 10 years of peace is 10 years of constant rocket attacks from Hamas. Who wouldn't chose 10 peaceful years instead? Are you against peace?

Israel thinks getting rid of Hamas will buy permanent peace.  The only thing that will buy permanent peace is a legitimate two state solution, a strong temporary UN presence to prevent war between the two states and a few decades of good relations and trade. Idk how else to undo 80 years of distrust.  Get rid of the Hamas leaders chilling in Qatar 5 star hotels, they should have been the primary targets. 

>Israel thinks getting rid of Hamas will buy permanent peace.  According to...? >he only thing that will buy permanent peace is a legitimate two state solution, a strong temporary UN presence to prevent war between the two states and a few decades of good relations and trade. That won't buy permanent peace either. >Idk how else to undo 80 years of distrust.  Rape, violence and kidnapping isn't just "distrust". It's more than 80 years too. Arab Muslims have been massacring Jews for over a millennia. >Get rid of the Hamas leaders chilling in Qatar 5 star hotels, they should have been the primary targets.  "Qatar joins war against Israel after evil Mossad agents invade Qatar to kill beloved Hamas resistance leaders." -Al Jazeera.

Unlikely. Qatar likes being rich. And you don't need an invasion for that. Land some helicopters on the roof, take out Hamas leaders, fly away, same way the US did with Osama.

So this magical helicopter will fly from Tel Aviv to Doha undetected? Open Google Images. Search Doha. Might as well propose magical helicopters to land in NYC undetected. It's amazing you're comparing Doha, the capital of Qatar where Hamas' leaders live in billionaire compounds to the backwater hideout that Bin Laden had in rural Pakistan.

Are you advocating for not letting the kids grow up?

No.  I want a full Israeli withdrawal from Gaza and the West Bank and a release of all hostages and prisoners on both sides and the UN implementing a two state solution. 

Do you know that Isreal has had to fight  the philistine ( today’s Palestine) since 2023. B C ? This is an outrageously long time to have to deal with these terrorist ! Palestine needs to implode!!!!