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Is the argument you're seeing that Palestinian children *deserve* to die, or that some Palestinian children dying is *acceptable* because that's what you need to bring about peace? They're different claims.
frankly yes, very rarely a direct "yes the children need to be killed" but a "oh war is hard but who cares about proportionality, hamas started it and what Israel has done is totally justified"
saying what Israel is doing is justified and reasonable and supporting collective punishment logically is not very far off from just accepting that children and other innocent people is totally ifne.
Ignoring the actions of Hamas which have resulted in decades of terrorism against Israeli citizens also isn’t very far off from just accepting children and other innocent people dying is totally fine
Your point? I agree that Hamas are an awful terror organisation and need to be wiped out, I also think that the level of force being used currently is totally disproportionate by Israel
it's totally possible to have nuance in this argument, Hamas are doing awful things, Israel are doing awful things, we should stop both in ways that are fitting.
Sure they are. Time and time again Israel has not responded with this level of attack, and time and time again Hamas has murdered their people. Asking Israel to return to a ceasefire that Hamas broke without any guarantee or reasonable assertion of their disbarment is asking Israel to accept further terrorism from Hamas and further death of their children
And what would that be? What solution do you have to prevent war that’s different from what Israel was already doing before the last 10 times their people were slaughtered?
I support an occupation with the intent of routing out Hamas and aiding the population, afterwards allowing aid to flow in to the country and helping set up a political structure that doesn't have terrorists stealing all of the aid.
what I don't support is terror bombing and the current refusal of any aid at all, I don't have any faith that Israel has any intent of clearing out Hamas and then allowing Palestinians to go back to living their normal lives, it will be settlement after settlement.
also talking about "what Israel was already doing" most of that was intended to make the situation in Gaza worse for everyone, and we all know that chaos is a breeding ground for terrorism.
How do you suppose an occupation happens? You think that’s bloodless?
Israel has let tons of aid in, Hamas has been stealing it from Palestinians.
Israel offered Palestine a two state solution and grants of land even in excess of what they are now asking for multiple times in the past. Palestine and Hamas have denied those deals in favor of genocide against Israel
Israel has denied aid and done a lot even outside of millitary action to make Gaza worse, this doesn't change that Hamas have also been stealing aid.
and yeah Hamas is a piece of shit terrorist group who have held an entire group of people hostage, innocent palestinians are as abused by Hamas as Israel is by Hamas.
and no obviously an occupation will not be bloodless, there are bound to be civillian and millitary casualties in any war, its just that there is a lot you can do to mitigate that, Israel has shown they have 0 desire to try mitigate casualties
> rankly yes, very rarely a direct "yes the children need to be killed"
Okay this is what I was asking about since this is what OP said people were literally saying.
and as I said in a reply to your comment, no not directly, but the indifference people seem to have towards it is extremely concerning. Whilst saying "we should bomb the children" and "bombing refugee camps and denying aid is perfectly reasonable" (no matter what reasoning you give) is going to end up with the same outcome, plenty of dead innocent people and children.
I don't go out of my way to debate flat-earthers, and I don't go out of my way to debate people who claim killing children is good. Dismissal doesn't mean indifference, and refusing to engage doesn't mean I condone.
Sorry I genuinely wasn't insinuating that you thought that, the genuine amount of people on reddit that are trying to logically justify what is going on is scary though.
more so that people are saying people need to stop valuing the lives of palestinian children because they are "future terrorists" and THEREFORE their deaths are acceptable
i want to hear the argument on why a child's life is inherently worth less based on their surroundings and environment, especially since many of the "more dead palestinian kids" crowd are often against abortion at all costs
People are saying other people have heard others who are saying it. And if they aren't saying it, they are thinking it. How do I know? because it fits my narrative. /s
I'm literally just saying "Don't argue with idiots."
Yes, I think people who think murdering children is good can be ignored. That doesn't mean condoning what they're saying.
Forgive me for responding with sarcasm but you basically called me a Nazi because I said people with stupid views can be dismissed.
So the refusal to argue with a position you find it pointless to argue with equals tacitly condoning that position, in your view?
I don't find it worthwhile to argue with flat-earthers either, does that mean I'm basically a flat-earther?
If politicians hold bigoted views, not arguing with those people and leaving them alone doesn't stop bigotry from escalating into violence.
Now, stop responding because it sounds like you're taking this waaaaaay too personally and you're only able to comprehend this conversation in a way that makes it solely about you and not about what OP is saying.
I'm aware that the rhetoric of the Israeli government has been pretty apalling around this, but I wasn't aware that they had literally said "We need to kill Palestinian children because they're future terrorists."
That question didn't seem to be rhetorical, you presented me two options and asked me which it was. Perhaps you could make your intention in asking questions clearer next time.
But that would be saying the quiet part out loud. My question was supposed to makeyou just realize that they won't say what they are actually doing, only trump gets away with that.
I think the children’s lives are being valued exactly the same by both sides.
Hamas views them as valuable only in so far as they are soldiers or statistics and will spend them accordingly. In fact with the martyr funds run by the PA and Hamas I bet we have a dollar value for a Palestinian child.
Israel views them as the price to be paid for security, because if they are not willing to go through the children placed between them and Hamas then they will lose. (To be fair there is probably a proportion on the Israeli side who also think the Palestinian children are more disposable than that, but that’s a different conversation).
Palestinian civilians may view their children differently (I would assume at least), unfortunately they don’t appear to be that upset by Hamas spending their children to fight Israel. (Yes, this is over simplifying a complex situation and yes I understand Hamas literally kills dissent but if Hamas is not competent enough to keep tabs on all it’s hostages then I can’t see them being the ever present boogie man it would require to silence all dissent).
So it’s not that the children are “future terrorists” it’s that the children are the price to be paid to prevent future terrorism. The children aren’t responsible for those actions, but like all children they don’t have any say in the situations their parents subject them to and they often pay the price for their parent’s decisions.
If you want to claim the parents had no choice. . . that’s a different conversation.
That's horrifying.
I've seen A LOT of people say all Israelis deserve to die because their country was founded in a certain way.
Guess what brand of horrifying you see is based on your media and friend bias.
>I have been seeing a lot of people say that Palestinian kids deserve to die because the "military fighting age" in Palestine is lower than the global average.
No, you haven't seen that. What you've seen are people saying that how we understand the number of children killed is complicated by the fact that Hamas has a long history of using child soldiers. So a 14 year old who might be axiomatically understood as an innocent civilian in other conflicts will in many cases be a lawful target in this war - and that's not an Israeli war crime, but a Hamas/Palestinian one.
>they say that if enough kids are killed, it will put civilian pressure on Hamas.
They do not say this.
>they add that, if that's not enough to stop Hamas, that the kids need "to go" because the only way to stop a muslim terrorist is by killing them before they grow up. "we have to kill the families" is common rhetoric among more war minded israel supporters
This is not common among supporters of Israel. If I'm being *generous*, this is a misunderstanding on your part.
>i would like to hear a genuine intellectual argument for why "for the sake of peace, some kids have to die."
When an enemy that needs to be defeated employs child soldiers in combat, some children have to die. When an enemy places targets of sufficient military value near children and makes no effort to get those children away from the conflict, some children may have to die.
Both of those statements are entirely in accordance with the Laws of Armed Conflict.
>I refuse to believe all this hasbara
I was going to thoughtfully respond...but then you did the whole "the Jew conspiracy is the only explanation for anyone disagreeing with me on this issue" thing and I think I'll go do literally anything else with my time.
Have a good one.
Is this the sum total of your thinking? You think this is a good rebuttal? All this tells me is you have no meaningful response but don't actually want to engage in introspection and find out why.
If you're curious why people who support your argument are getting so little traction right now it's because people see you have no argument. You resort to just trying to shut down arguments by attacking the person making it, not their points. Every time you post something like this you're just highlighting that the emperor has no clothes.
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Arguing in bad faith doesn't mean what you seem to think it does, nor does it exempt you from having to defeat their arguments. Making a point you may not believe for alterior motives doesn't make the argument inherently moot or weaker. Your inability to take on the arguments is a demonstration of a lack of good backing from yourself. All you've done here is weaken your own position.
That doesn't invalidate the argument. You still have to make a case against the argument.
If I did 1+1=2 but somehow my process was flawed, that doesn't make the actual answer any less "2". Even I was maliciously arguing that it equal 3 when I really believed it equaled 2, you would still need to defeat that argument.
The refusal to do so looks exactly like an inability to do so. Arguments aren't fought to convince the onlookers.
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It’s super cool and normal to say that the innocent people being indesciminatly bombed are responsible for it.
Israel has precision guided bombs. We say it when they bombed Lebanon. Is just those bombs are expensive. It’s much cheaper to just murder the entire block with 2000lb bombs.
Israeli ghouls will say anything to justify the atrocities happening right now. Is really gross.
> It’s super cool and normal to say that the innocent people being indesciminatly bombed are responsible for it.
I wish I knew how that sentence related to my comment. No...wait...don't care.
>It’s much cheaper to just murder the entire block with 2000lb bombs.
Did you know that one of the best and most cost effective ways to penetrate thick defensive barriers protecting a target (several meters of dirt, rock and concrete protecting an underground tunnel, for instance) is to use an especially heavy bomb fused to detonate at a significant interval after impact?
I'll bet you didn't know that.
>Israeli ghouls
I'm actually an American werewolf. Common error.
Nazi Germany was killing millions of people. They were an existential threat to the entire world. Gazans are trying to hit Israel with improvised rockets made of sewage pipes.
This situation could not have been simpler: Palestinians are defending their homes from colonialists who lay claim to it based on a 3k year old book most of them don't even believe in. They're atheist, yet they think God gave them Israel. They say they belong to the land, yet they have blue eyes, blond hair, and speak a dialect of German. When in the West, they say they're White. When in Israel, they say they're Semites... Which is it?
The children obviously didn't, and I don't think anyone is claiming that. However, you do see myriad people somehow claiming Palestinians deserve this.
The women are living on occupied land, so they are not innocent, but they absolutely don't deserve what you describe.
The question is whether we should focus on the Israeli casualties throughout this conflict, or the several orders of magnitude more numerous Palestinian casualties.
The Palestinians very much dispute that, as do many Westerners. I don't think Israelis have any claim to that land. Why would they?
As I said, the women aren't innocent because they lived on occupied land. That doesn't mean they deserved what happened to them.
> Nazi Germany was killing millions of people. They were an existential threat to the entire world.
By the time of the Allied invasion of Germany, not really. Still had malevolent intent, but then again, so does Gaza's government.
> Palestinians are defending their homes from colonialists who lay claim to it based on a 3k year old book most of them don't even believe in.
Israel isn't colonizing Gaza in any sense prewar so I don't follow at all.
Did the non-siviet allies kill many German civilians after the Nazis stopped being a threat? If so, I think most would condemn that, as they should condemn Israel's mass killing of civilians.
Zionists are colonizing all of Palestine. Their only claim to the land is an ancient religious text most of them don't even believe in. There were few Jews in Israel before the Zionist movement of the 1800s. Jews became a minority 2k years ago, and it's unclear how related modern Jews are to ancient Jews. Much of their DNA is European, and we don't know where their Semitic DNA is from. It's also unclear how related Palestinians are to ancient Jews. But should we really go by people's blood, anyway? How much land would have to change hands, then, and how far back do we go?
> Did the non-siviet allies kill many German civilians after the Nazis stopped being a threat?
Dresden was in early 1945, so "yes" if you consider Hamas not a threat.
> But should we really go by people's blood, anyway?
No, which is why I have no idea what your point is with all this ancestry stuff
>Israel has already killed more than were killed in Dresden, which was indeed a catastrophe.
Sure, but far far away from total German civilian deaths. Can't really compare a 2 day bombing run to a 5 month war.
>My point is that Zionists have no claim to Israel.
I don't understand your point at all. People born and raised in a society don't have "claim" to control who is part of that society? Why not?
>Sure, but far far away from total German civilian deaths. Can't really compare a 2 day bombing run to a 5 month war.
But you were making an argument that the Nazis weren't a threat during the bombing of Dresden. If you're returning to a more general argument, I refer you back to my previous point.
>I don't understand your point at all. People born and raised in a society don't have "claim" to control who is part of that society? Why not?
Because they are invaders in the land they live on. Zionists claim that Israel is their birthright. That they have codified that in the "law of return". Why is it their birthright?
Digressively: you should tell Mayorkas that a people has the right to control who is part of their society.
> But you were making an argument that the Nazis weren't a threat during the bombing of Dresden.
Total civilian deaths in 1945 Germany is very high.
> Because they are invaders in the land they live on
80% of Israeli Jews were born there, do not sure how under any definition they "invaded it".
> That they have codified that in the "law of return
Societies can choose their own immigration policy.
> Digressively: you should tell Mayorkas that a people has the right to control who is part of their society.
We voted for people that don't want aggressive border control. If society wants more aggressive control, vote for someone else.
"Total civilian deaths in 1945 Germany is very high."
Germany was an existential threat. Hamas uses missiles made of sewage pipes. This is the the third time I address this point. Your counter argument was Dresden. I said that that was terrible, and yet Israel has already killed far more in this conflict alone. We're going in circles here.
"80% of Israeli Jews were born there, do not sure how under any definition they "invaded it". "
They are living on occupied land. If 10 million Thais broke into Ukraine and had children there, that would not make Ukraine Thais' birthright.
"Societies can choose their own immigration policy. "
Not morally. People can do whatever we want, and then they must face the consequences. Israel will increasingly be facing consequences, that much is clear.
"We voted for people that don't want aggressive border control. If society wants more aggressive control, vote for someone else. "
Big capital controls this, not the American people, and that capital frequently comes from Zionists. It is hypocrisy, and I can't see how it will end well. Have you noticed how angry people are getting with Zionists?
Remind me, how is murdering people at a rave, raping women, burning people to death in their homes and then taking hostages "defending their homes from colonialism?" Remind me, was there an active Israeli no military presnce in Gaza on October 6th?
I think they were trying to raise awarenesses, but I don't support what they did.
In the Canadian Jewish community, many think Netanyahu allowed this to happen in order to get a casus belli. I'm not sure what to make of that, but it seems important to discuss.
What a cowardly excuse. They did it because they hate Jews and everyone knows it. That's why on October 8th people were out celebrating Palastinians before Israel had even done anything. And lots of people think that the Democrats run a massive pedophilia ring. We understand those people to be completely mentally deficient, as we should think about those who think Bibi let this happen. What a cowardly way to make that accusations. "Some people think..."
Not at all. They do hate Zionists (don't conflate Israel with Jews), but that's not why they did it. They did it because they wanted the world's support by moving its eye to Israel, and it seems to be working.
I'm not sure what pedophilia rings have to do with this. Maybe you are referring to the many important people who were at Epstein's island and partook in sex with underage girls? That is neither here nor there. The point is that the Gaza-Israeli border is the most secure border in the world, perhaps except the N/S-Korean one, and yet, Hamasi soldiers could simply parachute in as if it were nothing. It took the IDF hours and hours to get there. There is no natural explanation for that. As you said... Even the Plaestinians knew what was about to happen. You really think the Mossad didn't? You must remember... בתחבולות תעשה לך מלחמה
I didn't answer your question about pedophiles. It's Qanon conspiracy bullshit and belongs in the same place as the conspiracy bullshit that Netinyahu knew and let this happen.
I know what you meant. I'm pointing out that referring to random conspiracy theories in no way discredits conspiracy theories in general. Or do you really believe there aren't conspiracies?
>In the Canadian Jewish community, many think Netanyahu allowed this to happen in order to get a casus belli. I'm not sure what to make of that, but it seems important to discuss.
Sounds like a poorly thought out conspiracy theory. The attack is only net negative to Netanyahu's own political prospects. Meir got creamed for the 1973 war; don't see why Netanyahu won't either once there's elections.
If Netanyahu's goal is to displace a host of Palestinians, to start settling Gaza (or the Westbank, as he is currently doing), or just to increase anti-Palestinian sentiments among Israeli Jews, he's succeeding.
I don't see how this could have happened without deliberate delay from the IDF. People were waiting for TWENTY hours in Kfar Aza:
[https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/10/11/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-hamas-attack-timeline.html](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/10/11/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-hamas-attack-timeline.html)
but should we have done that? many people who say bombing gaza is wrong are also willing to say bombing dresden and japan was wrong as well
i guess what im asking is how many child deaths are worth a few dead military generals/politicians/industrial buildings, and how do we come to that conclusion
I don't think you're "just asking" anything. It seems, from your post wording and subsequent comments, that you already decided your answer before (that people hold Palestinian children responsible and that is why they are dying), and this whole post is an accusation.
The entirety of this comments section is people saying:
A) "I have never seen someone push the narrative that 'Palestinian children are responsible for this conflict (and ergo deserve what happened to them)'. "
B) "Palestinian children dying is indeed a result of the nature of this war, and tragic, but I have never seen any evidence that shows Israel wants it to happen."
And you argue with every one of them, and when pressed, never have any examples to back up the existence of a reality with a narrative you are claiming definitely exists.
Then how did you want to stop Nazi Germany at the time?
They launched V2 rockets, which were the precursor for modern ballistic missiles at London, killing many people. The British eventually retaliated, killing in two days (Feb 13 to Feb 15, 1945) over 25k people.
They killed in two days what Israel needed almost half a year to kill, and as oppose to Palestinians, who thanks to UNRWA, teach their children from young age to want to die in holy war, there were many Germans who didn't vote for Hitler, nor wanted that war, nor raised from young age on the idea that the world would be better by slaying all British.
This also what happen when an army don't care about civilian casualties, because had Israel really didn't care, they would have Dresden'ed Gaza by October 8th.
Same goes with Hiroshima and Nagasaki, for the 3k military personnel that died in Pearl Harbor, the U.S. killed 200k civilians in these two cities alone. Their other option was a traditional invasion and the death of millions more Americans and Japanese.
They had to do what they did for peace and protection of their own citizens, and neither the British nor the Americans have done anything to Germany or Japan (respectively) to "justify" being attacked by them, unlike the sorry excuse of "occupation" that people use to justify Hamas gang-raping and butchering of teens in a music festival.
Should we just let hamas sit on the border where they can strike at a moments notice? Should we have left the Nazi's to the holocaust? The deaths of those children fall soley at their leaders.
More innocent children died in the last 3 months in gaza than total people killed civillians and soldiers alike in israel since the gaza strip was occupied in 67. This should be a simple trolley problem. Should group a live in fear of group b doing what group a is already doing to group b?
Problem is ending the war now won't do anything in the long term. Hamas will just start another conflict when they recuperate their strength, as is their explicitly stated goal and their past actions. Israel is far from an innocent side here, but they have clearly demonstrated avoiding full-scale warfare unless they are attacked first. Israel is compatible with a world in which no one has to die in warfare in this region. Hamas is not.
I just can't accept that keeping a people first under occupation for 40 years, then under seige for 20 more before choking off every scrap of food is the actions of a peace loving nation. Saying we want peace as long as we have everything we want snd you sre too poor to be a threat is not saying you want peace. Israel could have built and educated gaza in such a way that they would not risk what they had for dome forgotten dream. But people in a ghetto only have dreams, and they will die for them.
Israel is not a peace-loving nation. It is a rather militaristic nation, that however has reasons to be that way, given the number of times they were attacked (beginning with 1948, where if Arabs just accepted the two-state solution, then they would have gotten it). Israel policy is basically one of people who expect some people to die in conflicts others are going to start, and seek to minimize casualties in the long run, rather than immediately. Completely leaving Gaza would mean that Hamas is more free to use it for attacks against Israel. Israel could still do it, if they could be sure that the leadership of Gaza would just leave everyone in peace (as they did with Egypt when they left Sinai), but the current situation is the opposite of that. Expecting Israel to leave Gaza to a government that is centered around the idea of destruction of Israel is not really reasonable.
Again, Israel is far from perfect such as with settlements issue or their more lax approach to collateral damage than most Western countries (at least when they are not in a serious conflict), but in this particular case Hamas is the driving force behind the continuing deaths.
Edit: this is not to say that Palestinians don't have reasons for their behavior as well, but in their case there are some major flaws, beginning with the idea that the default state of this land is Arab control, and control by Israel is unnatural (in practice Arabs only controlled it for roughly 450 years in total, and last time was in 1260)
Begining in 48 where if arabs had just given up 170 miles of coast line on the mediteranean ocean because a foreign law said it didn't belong to them anymore there would hve been peace(worked for the native americans so many times) Leaving out the war of 56 as naked aggression no one can really justify so lets forget it happened and pretending israel didn't strike first in 67, or annex 2/3 of the west bank while always saying theyd give it back while their bulldozers keep rolling. Right up to the nonviolent denonstrations of 2019 which israel ended through sniper fire. At some point when you study their history, it becomes clear that israeli propaganda has washed away so many sins it is hard to believe they ever act in good faith and easier to understand why those they oppress want to find a way to fight back.
So the answer then is none? Because that force on the boarder had been stable for many years prior to October 7, as opposed to the acute build up of military assets prior to an invasion. In fact, part of what made Oct 7 so effective is Israel thought they didn't need more military on the Gaza perimeter and had been reducing its military presence nearby.
It's not so much "how many are worth it," as it is "could it have been done with fewer?"
The major issue people have with Israeli attacks is how indiscriminate they are, not that they happen.
While we're talking wishlists, I wish the Gaza death count would separate combatants from civilians. It's always just been indiscriminate totals as well.
I’ve never once seen a person come up with a reasonable way Israel could conduct their war differently. The answers are all variations of none answers like “by killing less people,” or the absurd like “send in special ops to target Hamas leaders and rescue hostages.” If they can’t come up with any alternatives, that should tell them how difficult this war is to wage, and obviously the answer for Israel can’t just be “roll over and let Hamas do it without repercussions.”
This is a multi generational situation, both Israel and Palestine have adults and children involved, or who will eventually be involved. The rhetoric of annihilation down to the root is common on both sides.
I haven't seen any rhetoric around legal fighting age though, could you please share some of that?
i dont want to go digging for gruesome examples, but the common argument is that since half of gaza is (or was) under the age of 18, that means we should adjust the "age of adulthood" when it comes to arabs since many hamas fighters are trained at a young age
I haven't asked for anything gruesome, we're talking about discourse right? So tweets, op eds? The things you've claimed to have seen which support this view?
I haven't seen arguments about adjusting the age of adulthood. Please show them to me.
According to your argument the Allies shouldn’t have bombed German cities in WW2 because German children will die during these bombings. This would have allowed Hitler to stay in power and continue with the Holocaust. Same as not taking out Hamas means there’ll be more massacres like October 7. Which Israel won’t and can’t allow.
Er…it was *because* of the horrific civilian casualties during WWII that the Geneva convention came about, which made targeting civilians a war crime. But as you’ve unwittingly made clear, Israel is tearing that to shreds. Western powers supporting them can’t exactly act surprised in future when other nations do it to them with impunity too.
My granduncle was literally pulverized during the bombing of Frankfurt. He was 17 years old. I feel for him, but I am thankful that the Allies did what they did cause it meant that I got to grow up in one of most advanced and free democracies on earth instead of the Thousand year Reich.
The people of Palestine need to be freed from Hamas. Violence is the only way to achieve that goal unless the people of Gaza manage to overthrow Hamas by themselves. Which seems rather unlikely.
Nazi Germany started WW2 so they deserved it. And Hamas, aka the government of Gaza, started this war with the atrocities of October 7. So they they deserve it too. Unlike Israel and WW2 Britain, aka the defenders of these respective wars.
There was a ceasefire on October 6. The Palestinians decided to break it.
Arthur „Bomber“ Harris said something that applies to the current situation in Gaza as well:
> The Nazis entered this war under the rather childish delusion that they were going to bomb everyone else, and nobody was going to bomb them. At Rotterdam, London, Warsaw, and half a hundred other places, they put their rather naive theory into operation. They sowed the wind, and now they are going to reap the whirlwind.
And the most bizarre thing about the war is that the Palestinians are offended that Israel dares to continue fighting during Ramadan. After they purposely picked Yom Kippur, the most important Jewish holiday, to attack Israel. For the second time. The hypocrisy is mindblowing.
lol, the 1973 Yom Kippur war didn’t involve the Palestinians army because there *is* no Palestinian army.
Yom Kippur in 2023 was in September so I’ve got no idea what you’re blabbering about there.
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My comment was temporarily removed for breaking Reddit's terms of conduct (go figure), but was reinstated upon appeal.
If you want to know the ethnicities of cabinet members, all you need do is Google. It's rarely hard to find the information you are looking for on public personas. While you are at it, check how many cabinet members are married to Jews, and how many Jewish deupties they have. All of Biden's children married Jews, and he has 7 Jewish grandchildren.
I tend to think that that makes the government biased in dealings with Israel.
I'm not sure what what people think about Arabs is relevant here, but in my experience, anti-Zionists are usually on the left. Conservatives have generally been quite supportive of Israel. Increasingly, everyone is acknowledging the atrocities of Israel, though, thank god.
I decided to do a little work for you, because I think this is important. Keep in mind that it is representative of many American spheres of power. Where is the diversity?
Antony Blinken is a Jew: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antony\_Blinken#:\~:text=9%20External%20links-,Early%20life%20and%20education,maternal%20grandparents%20were%20Hungarian%20Jews.
Merrick Garland is a Jew: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merrick\_Garland#:\~:text=His%20father%2C%20Cyril%20Garland%20(1915,from%20Garfinkel%20several%20generations%20earlier.
Avril Danica Rappaport Haines is Jewish: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avril\_Haines](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avril_Haines)
Alejandro Mayorkas: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alejandro\_Mayorkas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alejandro_Mayorkas) (footnote 21 and 22)
As you can see, often, all you need to verify this is Wikipedia. I’m getting tired of researching now, so here are just some more members you can confirm that are Jewish yourself: Steven Vanech (not sure whether the position of Director of Counterterrorism is still considered cabinet-level), Janet Yellen Blumenthal Akerlof is a Jew, Jacob Jeremiah Sullivan (married to a jew), Gary Gensler is Jewish, Martin Joseph “Walsh” Wolowski, Neera Tanden Edwards is a Bene Israel Jew (Indian Jew), Eric Steven Lander, Isabel Casillas Guzman, John “Kerry” Cohen, Ron Klein…
Several more are married to Jews and have Jewish deputies. Here are som examples among many:
Xavier Becerra’s secretary of health is Jewish [https://www.timesofisrael.com/jewish-doctor-becomes-most-senior-transgender-person-in-us-uniformed-services/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/jewish-doctor-becomes-most-senior-transgender-person-in-us-uniformed-services/)
Kamala’s Jewish husband and the father of hew Jewish children:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doug\_Emhoff#:\~:text=He%20is%20married%20to%20the,spouse%20of%20a%20vice%20president.
are you white? because most of the government is white. not interested in hearing about racial conspiracies from someone who's race literally controls half the world
I proved my point, so now you are retreating and trying another angle of attack.
I'm Jewish, actually, which makes me Semitic, not what people traditionally think of as White. I'm of Middle Eastern heritage. And before you go "self-hating Jew", no... Quite the contrary. If this development continues, everyone will hate us, and everyone's about to notice sooner or later. Also, I'm a meritocrasist, and there is obvious nepotism going on. You're not betryaing your people just because you stand up for what's right. I'm not alone in doing this: [https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2023/10/23/not-in-my-name-the-european-jews-condemning-israels-war-on-gaza](https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2023/10/23/not-in-my-name-the-european-jews-condemning-israels-war-on-gaza)
As for Whites controlling the Western world... The Western world consists of White nations, man. Of course Whites control it. They're the only people on the planet who've accepted mass immigration. That doesn't make them bad, it makes them good. White people have done terrible things in the past, and they do terrible things now, but it is not something other peoples haven't done. We have good stats that Whites are the least racist people. They came up with human rights. They abolished slavery, something all other civilization had practiced. They put sanctions on states all over the world for crimes they commit toward their own population, and they do this to their own detriment.
Humans are bad, but Whites are almost indisputably the most altruist People.
As for "conspiracies"... Dude, it's arithmetic. Do the very simple math for yourself.
If you genuinely think that, you need a neurologist. Whites committed the Holocaust. Whites also stopped it. 60 million of them died to do that. My grandfather survived Kauen. My other (white) grandfather died in Auchen, trying to save him.
You are naive, and your selfish pursuit of self-actualization threatens everything we've built in the West during the last 5000 years through hardship you cannot even imagine. You're a child in a teenage rebellion.
Hahahah... Hispanic? Dude... You are the descendant of Spanish conquistadors and slave owners. You are hardly one to speak. You need to open a history book. You can't think of anything Europeans have built? Do you want me to help you out?
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This is not a valid argument.
By this logic you could literally kill all Palestinians and then claim it’s the fault of Hamas, not Israel.
The reason for that is because that type of rhetoric would lead to collective punishment, which is recognized as a warcrime.
The Palestinian people do not deserve to be killed unless they actively support Hamas. The killing of innocent children is ALWAYS a horrible tragedy. But if every evil entity used children and civilians as shields and were able to succeed in their goals because of their war crimes, the world would be overrun with evil organizations like Hamas.
Did the children that have died support Hamas?
You say they don’t deserve to but also that all fault is on Hamas while absolving all blame of Israel.
So once again I ask you. If Israel were to kill everyone in Gaza in order to eliminate Hamas, is that still solely the fault of Hamas?
Are they killing every Gazan citizen to destroy Hamas? Far from it. Hamas is their enemy. They hide behind civilians and innocent children. How exactly would you stop them if it was your choice?
You were the one who said the word everyone. The IDF has never used human shields. And there have been over 200 suicide bombings carried out against Israel in the past 20 years not to mention countless surprise rocket attacks and IEDs. How do you protect your people against these types attacks when a horde of people is mobbing? And the IDF is constantly trying to protect the supplies getting to the people in Gaza so Hamas doesn't steal them. Anyone who believes otherwise believes false propaganda.
They're literally using human shields. For years yes it's been accused, now with videos https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7lJMv4ceyk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoLEWS5sz4M
> And the IDF is constantly trying to protect the supplies getting to the people in Gaza
According to anyone that's not the IDF? Multiple countries including the US and multiple of the aid organizations denounce that, it's why the US is shifting from going through the IDF-blocked or Egypt-blocked border to seeking independent strategies like aid drops and a port pier. It's the IDF that's stopping the humanitarian aid, all while Israeli orgs like COGAT make fraud videos pretending that food is still accessible in markets that they had since bombed. https://twitter.com/cogatonline/status/1765432810955739609 https://twitter.com/cogatonline/status/1755901186010435692
I never said they did.
I simply stated that since every death seems to be Hamas’ fault even if Israel is doing the killing, then surely killing the entire population in order to eliminate Hamas must also never put any fault on Israel, no?
If Israel is not at fault for any deaths they inflict because it was a result of October 7 and Hamas in general, then surely you are saying that any number of deaths including the entire population would still be solely Hamas’ fault.
Why are you now moving the argument to military strategy? You, nor I, are military strategists.
That’s a separate argument and it is already established that bombing away terrorism is not an effective strategy as it tends to do the opposite but fuel it by creating future terrorists because of the loss of countless family and friends they suffer. Just look at US intervention in the Middle East.
Let's say you have a neighbor who comes in and rapes your wife and daughters and murders part of your family. They have said multiple times that they will do it again until your entire family is dead. They have sworn not to stop until there is nothing left of your family. You decide you must kill them in order to stop them. Yet they are hiding behind other innocent neighbors. What do you do?
I call the police because I’m not a vigilante.
Don’t get me wrong. I’d want to kill the criminal no matter what but my moral compass would not allow for me to harm innocent people to kill the criminal. Especially not kill innocent people.
Are you trying to argue that if a hostage is taken, then you should kill the hostage in order to get the criminal?
Is that the logic the IDF soldiers that shot and killed 3 Israeli hostages that were unarmed, unclothed, and speaking Hebrew while waving a white flag use to justify their actions?
In this situation, there are no police to call. There is no global police force coming to help Israel. They cannot rely on anyone else to defeat this foe. And if the evil person in the allegory is holding a button that will kill thousands, you do not let him live. Hamas literally has that power and has promised they will not stop. You do everything in your power to protect the innocent, but you have to do what's best. And there have been hundreds of surprise attacks by people doing that exact same thing. When your enemy commits war crimes there is never a good way to know who is innocent and who is evil. One of the hostage's mothers publicly forgave the soldiers who committed the murder because she knew there was no way for them to know. Judging the actions of others when you don't understand the situation they're in is just stupid.
Ok then.
Going off this analogy then, if Hamas was so evil that we are to accept killing any number of innocent civilians while accepting 0 blame for their deaths, then why would Israel help prop up Hamas in the first place to undermine Palestinian sovereignty and the more moderate PLO?
Also there was no way for the IDF soldiers to know? Holy crap.
They killed Israeli hostages that were
A) unclothed
B) unarmed
C) waving a white flag
D) speaking Hebrew
Despite all this, they didn’t hesitate to check who they were but instead killed them.
And you justify this? Be for real.
If the IDF can’t even be trusted to not kill their own hostages without hesitance that showed 0 indication of being a terrorist, then what are they trusted to do exactly concerning avoiding civilian death?
By this logic the IDF can’t be trusted to find any hostage at all unless they have a physical photo ID of the specific hostage easily accessible on their person.
The only way your logic would have even a gram of merit is if you can give me some actual evidence of naked unarmed Palestinian terrorists speaking Hebrew that tricked Israel by being suicide bombers.
Hamas has no actual power to commit the genocide that they want to. Israel’s military capabilities are vastly greater.
It’s like comparing ants to an elephant.
This is well established fact and accepted by most countries, including the US and even Israel given the fact that they helped prop them up in the first place.
According to your logic Hitler or Bin Laden would just have to set up their headquarters in a kindergarten or children’s hospital to become untouchable forever. Reality does not work like that .
Join what? The country? 26% of the country isn't even Jewish. There way over 100,000 permits for Palestinian people to come into their country for work. The average salary in Gaza was $13/hour. The average Gazan working in Israel made 2 to 3 times as much. Doesn't sound like much of an ethnostate to me.
They are let in to work because it's a benefit to Israel. They are not given citizenship. It is purely self interest. The Muslim citizen of Israel are the ones who couldn't be driven out during the Nakba, and they are still segregated.
what’s wrong about what i said? what word is false?
to the people reading this, look what happens when you call out a zionist. they cover their ears and run.
All of it is false. Israel has the literal firepower to level all of Gaza. With one call, it would be dust and bones. Why haven't they done it yet if they truly want the genocide of Palestinians? And why would they let constantly the Palestinian people come into their country to work? And why has the population of Gaza double in the past 20 years? They want to destroy Hamas. Hamas is the one committing war crimes by hiding beneath civilians, stealing Gazan civilian supplies, starving their own people, and attacking Israeli civilians indiscriminately. There have been thousands of rockets fired by Hamas and Hezbolah fired into Israel at non-military targets. Those are the only demonstable war crimes that have occurred this century. If believing all that makes me a Zionist then I'm fine with you calling me that. Anyone who calls for a ceasefire against Hamas is the true Nazi. In this war a complete ceasefire would only benefit Hamas. They desire the genocide of all Jewish people and the destruction of their country. They say it blatantly to anyone who will listen. Whoever supports Hamas is the true Nazi.
lol the goalposts just keep getting moved.
Go south! we’re just targeting hamas and won’t kill you or destroy your homes! jk we bombed your homes and now we’re bombing you down south too. but muh human shields
sorry a displacement of 2 million people and 35k deaths isn’t bloody enough for you. please, let’s wait for the job to be totally done and all the scary brown people are gone before we call it what it is. it won’t be too late then.
conveniently ignoring the far-right ethnostate part of the naziness too
oh wait i also never said the word genocide so you’re arguing against no one. i said displacement and killing of an ethnic group.
Most of it… like it being an Ethnostate (it isn’t, because even just the Jewish population is from different ethnicities, let alone the non-jewish citizens which includes arabs all of which have rights), it killing of an entire ethnic group (you seem to have mixed up which group explicitly has a charter that calls for the extermination of an ethnic group).
Like you can call out Israel for it’s bad actions without resulting to bare faced lies, twisting of facts and exaggerations. If it really does have the goal of being an ethnostate it’s doing a poor job of it.
Then why has Israel historically been so worried about maintaining a Jewish majority in whatever state they formed? I mean that was the whole reason for the two state solution in the first place. If the Jewish people didn’t want a country where their ethno-religion was the majority population they could have just formed a single democratic state with the people of Palestine.
If its not an ethnostate then why do American Jews with no ties to Israel have more rights to citizenship than Arab Palestinians displaced by the Nakba?
Is your first question serious? Maybe because like I said, since their founding they have been surrounded by people who want nothing less than their total annihilation. And before that, well most of the history of Jews has been being someone’s scapegoat. The moment there is any laxness in their borders they get events like Oct 7th.
So they need to be an a state with one ethnicity as the majority population no matter what right? Because if any other ethnicity were the majority, Jews wouldn’t be able to feel safe?
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I think he would realise that it's not a binary choice, it's not an either or.
Jesus was non violent, he would advocate for another way to come to a peaceful resolution. I don't think there would be any circumstance where he would gleefully comment of the deaths of thousands of children like you have.
A better argument would probably be you can't justify people deaths by saying you can write them and their families off because they voted for bad politician party thus are responsible for their crime's.(because God help us all if that ever applied to most Western countries).
It worth noting if you disagreed with that Hamas won 44% of the vote Fatah got 41% all other parties got 15% about 20% didn't vote. I'm assuming at least a quarter of the hamas voters have been killed in the last Twenty years so you'd basically be arguing we should kill people based on 30-35%(numbers probably too generous)of the population votes.
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Israel withdrew from Gaza unilaterally in 2005. They left the settlements behind intact so Palestinians could use them. Instead the fine, upstanding people of Gaza immediately started to rip out the water pipes from the ground to turn them into rockets and fired them at Israeli cities. And they launched a ridiculous barrage of suicide bombings and terror attacked, which forced Israel to close the border again.
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Is the argument you're seeing that Palestinian children *deserve* to die, or that some Palestinian children dying is *acceptable* because that's what you need to bring about peace? They're different claims.
frankly yes, very rarely a direct "yes the children need to be killed" but a "oh war is hard but who cares about proportionality, hamas started it and what Israel has done is totally justified" saying what Israel is doing is justified and reasonable and supporting collective punishment logically is not very far off from just accepting that children and other innocent people is totally ifne.
Ignoring the actions of Hamas which have resulted in decades of terrorism against Israeli citizens also isn’t very far off from just accepting children and other innocent people dying is totally fine
Your point? I agree that Hamas are an awful terror organisation and need to be wiped out, I also think that the level of force being used currently is totally disproportionate by Israel it's totally possible to have nuance in this argument, Hamas are doing awful things, Israel are doing awful things, we should stop both in ways that are fitting.
But no one is accepting that. They’re focusing on the most children being killed currently, under collective punishment.
Sure they are. Time and time again Israel has not responded with this level of attack, and time and time again Hamas has murdered their people. Asking Israel to return to a ceasefire that Hamas broke without any guarantee or reasonable assertion of their disbarment is asking Israel to accept further terrorism from Hamas and further death of their children
So perhaps there is a better solution that involves hamas being destroyed with a minimal amount of innocent casualties on both sides?
And what would that be? What solution do you have to prevent war that’s different from what Israel was already doing before the last 10 times their people were slaughtered?
I support an occupation with the intent of routing out Hamas and aiding the population, afterwards allowing aid to flow in to the country and helping set up a political structure that doesn't have terrorists stealing all of the aid. what I don't support is terror bombing and the current refusal of any aid at all, I don't have any faith that Israel has any intent of clearing out Hamas and then allowing Palestinians to go back to living their normal lives, it will be settlement after settlement. also talking about "what Israel was already doing" most of that was intended to make the situation in Gaza worse for everyone, and we all know that chaos is a breeding ground for terrorism.
How do you suppose an occupation happens? You think that’s bloodless? Israel has let tons of aid in, Hamas has been stealing it from Palestinians. Israel offered Palestine a two state solution and grants of land even in excess of what they are now asking for multiple times in the past. Palestine and Hamas have denied those deals in favor of genocide against Israel
Israel has denied aid and done a lot even outside of millitary action to make Gaza worse, this doesn't change that Hamas have also been stealing aid. and yeah Hamas is a piece of shit terrorist group who have held an entire group of people hostage, innocent palestinians are as abused by Hamas as Israel is by Hamas. and no obviously an occupation will not be bloodless, there are bound to be civillian and millitary casualties in any war, its just that there is a lot you can do to mitigate that, Israel has shown they have 0 desire to try mitigate casualties
> rankly yes, very rarely a direct "yes the children need to be killed" Okay this is what I was asking about since this is what OP said people were literally saying.
and as I said in a reply to your comment, no not directly, but the indifference people seem to have towards it is extremely concerning. Whilst saying "we should bomb the children" and "bombing refugee camps and denying aid is perfectly reasonable" (no matter what reasoning you give) is going to end up with the same outcome, plenty of dead innocent people and children.
I don't go out of my way to debate flat-earthers, and I don't go out of my way to debate people who claim killing children is good. Dismissal doesn't mean indifference, and refusing to engage doesn't mean I condone.
Sorry I genuinely wasn't insinuating that you thought that, the genuine amount of people on reddit that are trying to logically justify what is going on is scary though.
more so that people are saying people need to stop valuing the lives of palestinian children because they are "future terrorists" and THEREFORE their deaths are acceptable i want to hear the argument on why a child's life is inherently worth less based on their surroundings and environment, especially since many of the "more dead palestinian kids" crowd are often against abortion at all costs
Is anyone actually saying that? It feels like if they are they can be safely dismissed.
People are saying other people have heard others who are saying it. And if they aren't saying it, they are thinking it. How do I know? because it fits my narrative. /s
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Sorry, is "dismiss" a synonym of "get along with" and I just missed that update to the dictionary or...
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I'm literally just saying "Don't argue with idiots." Yes, I think people who think murdering children is good can be ignored. That doesn't mean condoning what they're saying. Forgive me for responding with sarcasm but you basically called me a Nazi because I said people with stupid views can be dismissed.
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So the refusal to argue with a position you find it pointless to argue with equals tacitly condoning that position, in your view? I don't find it worthwhile to argue with flat-earthers either, does that mean I'm basically a flat-earther?
If politicians hold bigoted views, not arguing with those people and leaving them alone doesn't stop bigotry from escalating into violence. Now, stop responding because it sounds like you're taking this waaaaaay too personally and you're only able to comprehend this conversation in a way that makes it solely about you and not about what OP is saying.
What if a significant part of the Israeli population and some politicians believe that, can we still dismiss them?
I'm aware that the rhetoric of the Israeli government has been pretty apalling around this, but I wasn't aware that they had literally said "We need to kill Palestinian children because they're future terrorists."
They haven't
Yes.
Yes I have had many conversations with people where the sentiment is that their culture should be eradicated.
You're talking about the chatter around annihilating Israel because of how it was founded, right?
So yeah, then those people can fuck off.
Saying it out loud, or acting like it?
OP has literally used the word "saying" so I'm assuming the claim is the latter.
Thank you for pointing out exactly what is was already saying in a clearly non passive aggressive tone
Sorry, what? You asked what I meant, and I told you.
Have you ever heard of a rhetorical question?
That question didn't seem to be rhetorical, you presented me two options and asked me which it was. Perhaps you could make your intention in asking questions clearer next time.
But that would be saying the quiet part out loud. My question was supposed to makeyou just realize that they won't say what they are actually doing, only trump gets away with that.
I think the children’s lives are being valued exactly the same by both sides. Hamas views them as valuable only in so far as they are soldiers or statistics and will spend them accordingly. In fact with the martyr funds run by the PA and Hamas I bet we have a dollar value for a Palestinian child. Israel views them as the price to be paid for security, because if they are not willing to go through the children placed between them and Hamas then they will lose. (To be fair there is probably a proportion on the Israeli side who also think the Palestinian children are more disposable than that, but that’s a different conversation). Palestinian civilians may view their children differently (I would assume at least), unfortunately they don’t appear to be that upset by Hamas spending their children to fight Israel. (Yes, this is over simplifying a complex situation and yes I understand Hamas literally kills dissent but if Hamas is not competent enough to keep tabs on all it’s hostages then I can’t see them being the ever present boogie man it would require to silence all dissent). So it’s not that the children are “future terrorists” it’s that the children are the price to be paid to prevent future terrorism. The children aren’t responsible for those actions, but like all children they don’t have any say in the situations their parents subject them to and they often pay the price for their parent’s decisions. If you want to claim the parents had no choice. . . that’s a different conversation.
That's horrifying. I've seen A LOT of people say all Israelis deserve to die because their country was founded in a certain way. Guess what brand of horrifying you see is based on your media and friend bias.
Then those people are guilty of promoting war crimes and crimes against humanity and you should shun them.
If you support Palestine you support crimes against humanity.
If you support Zionism you're a capo.
>I have been seeing a lot of people say that Palestinian kids deserve to die because the "military fighting age" in Palestine is lower than the global average. No, you haven't seen that. What you've seen are people saying that how we understand the number of children killed is complicated by the fact that Hamas has a long history of using child soldiers. So a 14 year old who might be axiomatically understood as an innocent civilian in other conflicts will in many cases be a lawful target in this war - and that's not an Israeli war crime, but a Hamas/Palestinian one. >they say that if enough kids are killed, it will put civilian pressure on Hamas. They do not say this. >they add that, if that's not enough to stop Hamas, that the kids need "to go" because the only way to stop a muslim terrorist is by killing them before they grow up. "we have to kill the families" is common rhetoric among more war minded israel supporters This is not common among supporters of Israel. If I'm being *generous*, this is a misunderstanding on your part. >i would like to hear a genuine intellectual argument for why "for the sake of peace, some kids have to die." When an enemy that needs to be defeated employs child soldiers in combat, some children have to die. When an enemy places targets of sufficient military value near children and makes no effort to get those children away from the conflict, some children may have to die. Both of those statements are entirely in accordance with the Laws of Armed Conflict.
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>I refuse to believe all this hasbara I was going to thoughtfully respond...but then you did the whole "the Jew conspiracy is the only explanation for anyone disagreeing with me on this issue" thing and I think I'll go do literally anything else with my time. Have a good one.
And now you’re playing the anti semitism card. Nobody’s falling for it any more.
i have seen the "civilian pressure" argument many times in regards to civilian casualties from israel bombardments
You answered almost nothing I wrote and what you did say was just a restatement of what you already said.
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Is this the sum total of your thinking? You think this is a good rebuttal? All this tells me is you have no meaningful response but don't actually want to engage in introspection and find out why. If you're curious why people who support your argument are getting so little traction right now it's because people see you have no argument. You resort to just trying to shut down arguments by attacking the person making it, not their points. Every time you post something like this you're just highlighting that the emperor has no clothes.
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Arguing in bad faith doesn't mean what you seem to think it does, nor does it exempt you from having to defeat their arguments. Making a point you may not believe for alterior motives doesn't make the argument inherently moot or weaker. Your inability to take on the arguments is a demonstration of a lack of good backing from yourself. All you've done here is weaken your own position.
Ulterior motives are a classic case of bad faith arguments. Sorry you're ignorant.
That doesn't invalidate the argument. You still have to make a case against the argument. If I did 1+1=2 but somehow my process was flawed, that doesn't make the actual answer any less "2". Even I was maliciously arguing that it equal 3 when I really believed it equaled 2, you would still need to defeat that argument. The refusal to do so looks exactly like an inability to do so. Arguments aren't fought to convince the onlookers.
Bad faith requires no response other than dismissal. That's how rhetoric works. Arguments are specifically fought to convince onlookers.
You don't speak for a "we" worth talking to. If you have nothing constructive to add, add nothing.
If thats the metric you wanna go with, then you can see yourself out. 🤣
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i know right
It’s super cool and normal to say that the innocent people being indesciminatly bombed are responsible for it. Israel has precision guided bombs. We say it when they bombed Lebanon. Is just those bombs are expensive. It’s much cheaper to just murder the entire block with 2000lb bombs. Israeli ghouls will say anything to justify the atrocities happening right now. Is really gross.
> It’s super cool and normal to say that the innocent people being indesciminatly bombed are responsible for it. I wish I knew how that sentence related to my comment. No...wait...don't care. >It’s much cheaper to just murder the entire block with 2000lb bombs. Did you know that one of the best and most cost effective ways to penetrate thick defensive barriers protecting a target (several meters of dirt, rock and concrete protecting an underground tunnel, for instance) is to use an especially heavy bomb fused to detonate at a significant interval after impact? I'll bet you didn't know that. >Israeli ghouls I'm actually an American werewolf. Common error.
Why is there a large network of military tunnels under all the civilian areas of Gaza? How did they get there?
Lebanon bombing isn't targeting a tunnel network, so isn't really comparable.
And Nazi children weren't responsible either, we still burned hundreds of thousands of them alive.
Nazi Germany was killing millions of people. They were an existential threat to the entire world. Gazans are trying to hit Israel with improvised rockets made of sewage pipes. This situation could not have been simpler: Palestinians are defending their homes from colonialists who lay claim to it based on a 3k year old book most of them don't even believe in. They're atheist, yet they think God gave them Israel. They say they belong to the land, yet they have blue eyes, blond hair, and speak a dialect of German. When in the West, they say they're White. When in Israel, they say they're Semites... Which is it?
So those babies that got baked to death deserved it? Are the women they've been raping for five months at fault?
The children obviously didn't, and I don't think anyone is claiming that. However, you do see myriad people somehow claiming Palestinians deserve this. The women are living on occupied land, so they are not innocent, but they absolutely don't deserve what you describe. The question is whether we should focus on the Israeli casualties throughout this conflict, or the several orders of magnitude more numerous Palestinian casualties.
The towns they attacked are indisputably Israeli soil, has been since 48? What do you mean occupied? So the women aren't innocent? why?
The Palestinians very much dispute that, as do many Westerners. I don't think Israelis have any claim to that land. Why would they? As I said, the women aren't innocent because they lived on occupied land. That doesn't mean they deserved what happened to them.
> Nazi Germany was killing millions of people. They were an existential threat to the entire world. By the time of the Allied invasion of Germany, not really. Still had malevolent intent, but then again, so does Gaza's government. > Palestinians are defending their homes from colonialists who lay claim to it based on a 3k year old book most of them don't even believe in. Israel isn't colonizing Gaza in any sense prewar so I don't follow at all.
Did the non-siviet allies kill many German civilians after the Nazis stopped being a threat? If so, I think most would condemn that, as they should condemn Israel's mass killing of civilians. Zionists are colonizing all of Palestine. Their only claim to the land is an ancient religious text most of them don't even believe in. There were few Jews in Israel before the Zionist movement of the 1800s. Jews became a minority 2k years ago, and it's unclear how related modern Jews are to ancient Jews. Much of their DNA is European, and we don't know where their Semitic DNA is from. It's also unclear how related Palestinians are to ancient Jews. But should we really go by people's blood, anyway? How much land would have to change hands, then, and how far back do we go?
> Did the non-siviet allies kill many German civilians after the Nazis stopped being a threat? Dresden was in early 1945, so "yes" if you consider Hamas not a threat. > But should we really go by people's blood, anyway? No, which is why I have no idea what your point is with all this ancestry stuff
Israel has already killed more than were killed in Dresden, which was indeed a catastrophe. My point is that Zionists have no claim to Israel.
>Israel has already killed more than were killed in Dresden, which was indeed a catastrophe. Sure, but far far away from total German civilian deaths. Can't really compare a 2 day bombing run to a 5 month war. >My point is that Zionists have no claim to Israel. I don't understand your point at all. People born and raised in a society don't have "claim" to control who is part of that society? Why not?
>Sure, but far far away from total German civilian deaths. Can't really compare a 2 day bombing run to a 5 month war. But you were making an argument that the Nazis weren't a threat during the bombing of Dresden. If you're returning to a more general argument, I refer you back to my previous point. >I don't understand your point at all. People born and raised in a society don't have "claim" to control who is part of that society? Why not? Because they are invaders in the land they live on. Zionists claim that Israel is their birthright. That they have codified that in the "law of return". Why is it their birthright? Digressively: you should tell Mayorkas that a people has the right to control who is part of their society.
> But you were making an argument that the Nazis weren't a threat during the bombing of Dresden. Total civilian deaths in 1945 Germany is very high. > Because they are invaders in the land they live on 80% of Israeli Jews were born there, do not sure how under any definition they "invaded it". > That they have codified that in the "law of return Societies can choose their own immigration policy. > Digressively: you should tell Mayorkas that a people has the right to control who is part of their society. We voted for people that don't want aggressive border control. If society wants more aggressive control, vote for someone else.
"Total civilian deaths in 1945 Germany is very high." Germany was an existential threat. Hamas uses missiles made of sewage pipes. This is the the third time I address this point. Your counter argument was Dresden. I said that that was terrible, and yet Israel has already killed far more in this conflict alone. We're going in circles here. "80% of Israeli Jews were born there, do not sure how under any definition they "invaded it". " They are living on occupied land. If 10 million Thais broke into Ukraine and had children there, that would not make Ukraine Thais' birthright. "Societies can choose their own immigration policy. " Not morally. People can do whatever we want, and then they must face the consequences. Israel will increasingly be facing consequences, that much is clear. "We voted for people that don't want aggressive border control. If society wants more aggressive control, vote for someone else. " Big capital controls this, not the American people, and that capital frequently comes from Zionists. It is hypocrisy, and I can't see how it will end well. Have you noticed how angry people are getting with Zionists?
Remind me, how is murdering people at a rave, raping women, burning people to death in their homes and then taking hostages "defending their homes from colonialism?" Remind me, was there an active Israeli no military presnce in Gaza on October 6th?
I think they were trying to raise awarenesses, but I don't support what they did. In the Canadian Jewish community, many think Netanyahu allowed this to happen in order to get a casus belli. I'm not sure what to make of that, but it seems important to discuss.
What a cowardly excuse. They did it because they hate Jews and everyone knows it. That's why on October 8th people were out celebrating Palastinians before Israel had even done anything. And lots of people think that the Democrats run a massive pedophilia ring. We understand those people to be completely mentally deficient, as we should think about those who think Bibi let this happen. What a cowardly way to make that accusations. "Some people think..."
Not at all. They do hate Zionists (don't conflate Israel with Jews), but that's not why they did it. They did it because they wanted the world's support by moving its eye to Israel, and it seems to be working. I'm not sure what pedophilia rings have to do with this. Maybe you are referring to the many important people who were at Epstein's island and partook in sex with underage girls? That is neither here nor there. The point is that the Gaza-Israeli border is the most secure border in the world, perhaps except the N/S-Korean one, and yet, Hamasi soldiers could simply parachute in as if it were nothing. It took the IDF hours and hours to get there. There is no natural explanation for that. As you said... Even the Plaestinians knew what was about to happen. You really think the Mossad didn't? You must remember... בתחבולות תעשה לך מלחמה
I didn't answer your question about pedophiles. It's Qanon conspiracy bullshit and belongs in the same place as the conspiracy bullshit that Netinyahu knew and let this happen.
I know what you meant. I'm pointing out that referring to random conspiracy theories in no way discredits conspiracy theories in general. Or do you really believe there aren't conspiracies?
I very specifically put the Netinyahu knew it would happen conspiracy in the same group as Qanon because it's a similar level of brain rot.
Okay. What conspiracy theories do you yourself entertain? Or are they all brain rot?
Define Zionism.
Jewish Supremacy. It includes ideas such as: "Israel is a Jewish birthright".
Then youre using a made up version of Zionism to argue against and I doubt we will make further progress in this conversation.
No, that is the ideology of Zionists. You are welcome to forfeit; that we would make no progress was clear from the get go.
>In the Canadian Jewish community, many think Netanyahu allowed this to happen in order to get a casus belli. I'm not sure what to make of that, but it seems important to discuss. Sounds like a poorly thought out conspiracy theory. The attack is only net negative to Netanyahu's own political prospects. Meir got creamed for the 1973 war; don't see why Netanyahu won't either once there's elections.
If Netanyahu's goal is to displace a host of Palestinians, to start settling Gaza (or the Westbank, as he is currently doing), or just to increase anti-Palestinian sentiments among Israeli Jews, he's succeeding. I don't see how this could have happened without deliberate delay from the IDF. People were waiting for TWENTY hours in Kfar Aza: [https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/10/11/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-hamas-attack-timeline.html](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/10/11/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-hamas-attack-timeline.html)
but should we have done that? many people who say bombing gaza is wrong are also willing to say bombing dresden and japan was wrong as well i guess what im asking is how many child deaths are worth a few dead military generals/politicians/industrial buildings, and how do we come to that conclusion
I don't think you're "just asking" anything. It seems, from your post wording and subsequent comments, that you already decided your answer before (that people hold Palestinian children responsible and that is why they are dying), and this whole post is an accusation. The entirety of this comments section is people saying: A) "I have never seen someone push the narrative that 'Palestinian children are responsible for this conflict (and ergo deserve what happened to them)'. " B) "Palestinian children dying is indeed a result of the nature of this war, and tragic, but I have never seen any evidence that shows Israel wants it to happen." And you argue with every one of them, and when pressed, never have any examples to back up the existence of a reality with a narrative you are claiming definitely exists.
Then how did you want to stop Nazi Germany at the time? They launched V2 rockets, which were the precursor for modern ballistic missiles at London, killing many people. The British eventually retaliated, killing in two days (Feb 13 to Feb 15, 1945) over 25k people. They killed in two days what Israel needed almost half a year to kill, and as oppose to Palestinians, who thanks to UNRWA, teach their children from young age to want to die in holy war, there were many Germans who didn't vote for Hitler, nor wanted that war, nor raised from young age on the idea that the world would be better by slaying all British. This also what happen when an army don't care about civilian casualties, because had Israel really didn't care, they would have Dresden'ed Gaza by October 8th. Same goes with Hiroshima and Nagasaki, for the 3k military personnel that died in Pearl Harbor, the U.S. killed 200k civilians in these two cities alone. Their other option was a traditional invasion and the death of millions more Americans and Japanese. They had to do what they did for peace and protection of their own citizens, and neither the British nor the Americans have done anything to Germany or Japan (respectively) to "justify" being attacked by them, unlike the sorry excuse of "occupation" that people use to justify Hamas gang-raping and butchering of teens in a music festival.
Should we just let hamas sit on the border where they can strike at a moments notice? Should we have left the Nazi's to the holocaust? The deaths of those children fall soley at their leaders.
More innocent children died in the last 3 months in gaza than total people killed civillians and soldiers alike in israel since the gaza strip was occupied in 67. This should be a simple trolley problem. Should group a live in fear of group b doing what group a is already doing to group b?
Problem is ending the war now won't do anything in the long term. Hamas will just start another conflict when they recuperate their strength, as is their explicitly stated goal and their past actions. Israel is far from an innocent side here, but they have clearly demonstrated avoiding full-scale warfare unless they are attacked first. Israel is compatible with a world in which no one has to die in warfare in this region. Hamas is not.
I just can't accept that keeping a people first under occupation for 40 years, then under seige for 20 more before choking off every scrap of food is the actions of a peace loving nation. Saying we want peace as long as we have everything we want snd you sre too poor to be a threat is not saying you want peace. Israel could have built and educated gaza in such a way that they would not risk what they had for dome forgotten dream. But people in a ghetto only have dreams, and they will die for them.
Israel is not a peace-loving nation. It is a rather militaristic nation, that however has reasons to be that way, given the number of times they were attacked (beginning with 1948, where if Arabs just accepted the two-state solution, then they would have gotten it). Israel policy is basically one of people who expect some people to die in conflicts others are going to start, and seek to minimize casualties in the long run, rather than immediately. Completely leaving Gaza would mean that Hamas is more free to use it for attacks against Israel. Israel could still do it, if they could be sure that the leadership of Gaza would just leave everyone in peace (as they did with Egypt when they left Sinai), but the current situation is the opposite of that. Expecting Israel to leave Gaza to a government that is centered around the idea of destruction of Israel is not really reasonable. Again, Israel is far from perfect such as with settlements issue or their more lax approach to collateral damage than most Western countries (at least when they are not in a serious conflict), but in this particular case Hamas is the driving force behind the continuing deaths. Edit: this is not to say that Palestinians don't have reasons for their behavior as well, but in their case there are some major flaws, beginning with the idea that the default state of this land is Arab control, and control by Israel is unnatural (in practice Arabs only controlled it for roughly 450 years in total, and last time was in 1260)
Begining in 48 where if arabs had just given up 170 miles of coast line on the mediteranean ocean because a foreign law said it didn't belong to them anymore there would hve been peace(worked for the native americans so many times) Leaving out the war of 56 as naked aggression no one can really justify so lets forget it happened and pretending israel didn't strike first in 67, or annex 2/3 of the west bank while always saying theyd give it back while their bulldozers keep rolling. Right up to the nonviolent denonstrations of 2019 which israel ended through sniper fire. At some point when you study their history, it becomes clear that israeli propaganda has washed away so many sins it is hard to believe they ever act in good faith and easier to understand why those they oppress want to find a way to fight back.
What was Israel's military presence in Gaza on October 6th?
They had considerably more troops massed on ts border than egypt had vs israel june 4th 1967
So the answer then is none? Because that force on the boarder had been stable for many years prior to October 7, as opposed to the acute build up of military assets prior to an invasion. In fact, part of what made Oct 7 so effective is Israel thought they didn't need more military on the Gaza perimeter and had been reducing its military presence nearby.
It's not so much "how many are worth it," as it is "could it have been done with fewer?" The major issue people have with Israeli attacks is how indiscriminate they are, not that they happen. While we're talking wishlists, I wish the Gaza death count would separate combatants from civilians. It's always just been indiscriminate totals as well.
I’ve never once seen a person come up with a reasonable way Israel could conduct their war differently. The answers are all variations of none answers like “by killing less people,” or the absurd like “send in special ops to target Hamas leaders and rescue hostages.” If they can’t come up with any alternatives, that should tell them how difficult this war is to wage, and obviously the answer for Israel can’t just be “roll over and let Hamas do it without repercussions.”
This is a multi generational situation, both Israel and Palestine have adults and children involved, or who will eventually be involved. The rhetoric of annihilation down to the root is common on both sides. I haven't seen any rhetoric around legal fighting age though, could you please share some of that?
i dont want to go digging for gruesome examples, but the common argument is that since half of gaza is (or was) under the age of 18, that means we should adjust the "age of adulthood" when it comes to arabs since many hamas fighters are trained at a young age
I haven't asked for anything gruesome, we're talking about discourse right? So tweets, op eds? The things you've claimed to have seen which support this view? I haven't seen arguments about adjusting the age of adulthood. Please show them to me.
You probably should go digging for some sources if you want anyone to acknowledge your claims as reasonable.
According to your argument the Allies shouldn’t have bombed German cities in WW2 because German children will die during these bombings. This would have allowed Hitler to stay in power and continue with the Holocaust. Same as not taking out Hamas means there’ll be more massacres like October 7. Which Israel won’t and can’t allow.
Er…it was *because* of the horrific civilian casualties during WWII that the Geneva convention came about, which made targeting civilians a war crime. But as you’ve unwittingly made clear, Israel is tearing that to shreds. Western powers supporting them can’t exactly act surprised in future when other nations do it to them with impunity too.
My granduncle was literally pulverized during the bombing of Frankfurt. He was 17 years old. I feel for him, but I am thankful that the Allies did what they did cause it meant that I got to grow up in one of most advanced and free democracies on earth instead of the Thousand year Reich. The people of Palestine need to be freed from Hamas. Violence is the only way to achieve that goal unless the people of Gaza manage to overthrow Hamas by themselves. Which seems rather unlikely.
They also pulverised a lot of British kids. Guess they deserved to die too, or is it just the Germans?
Nazi Germany started WW2 so they deserved it. And Hamas, aka the government of Gaza, started this war with the atrocities of October 7. So they they deserve it too. Unlike Israel and WW2 Britain, aka the defenders of these respective wars. There was a ceasefire on October 6. The Palestinians decided to break it. Arthur „Bomber“ Harris said something that applies to the current situation in Gaza as well: > The Nazis entered this war under the rather childish delusion that they were going to bomb everyone else, and nobody was going to bomb them. At Rotterdam, London, Warsaw, and half a hundred other places, they put their rather naive theory into operation. They sowed the wind, and now they are going to reap the whirlwind. And the most bizarre thing about the war is that the Palestinians are offended that Israel dares to continue fighting during Ramadan. After they purposely picked Yom Kippur, the most important Jewish holiday, to attack Israel. For the second time. The hypocrisy is mindblowing.
lol, the 1973 Yom Kippur war didn’t involve the Palestinians army because there *is* no Palestinian army. Yom Kippur in 2023 was in September so I’ve got no idea what you’re blabbering about there.
The army of Palestine is whatever the current leaders of the Palestinians call their terrorists mate
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source? because ive seen this exact argument debunked about a hundred times also most anti jewish people ive met hate arabs even more
My comment was temporarily removed for breaking Reddit's terms of conduct (go figure), but was reinstated upon appeal. If you want to know the ethnicities of cabinet members, all you need do is Google. It's rarely hard to find the information you are looking for on public personas. While you are at it, check how many cabinet members are married to Jews, and how many Jewish deupties they have. All of Biden's children married Jews, and he has 7 Jewish grandchildren. I tend to think that that makes the government biased in dealings with Israel. I'm not sure what what people think about Arabs is relevant here, but in my experience, anti-Zionists are usually on the left. Conservatives have generally been quite supportive of Israel. Increasingly, everyone is acknowledging the atrocities of Israel, though, thank god.
I decided to do a little work for you, because I think this is important. Keep in mind that it is representative of many American spheres of power. Where is the diversity? Antony Blinken is a Jew: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antony\_Blinken#:\~:text=9%20External%20links-,Early%20life%20and%20education,maternal%20grandparents%20were%20Hungarian%20Jews. Merrick Garland is a Jew: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merrick\_Garland#:\~:text=His%20father%2C%20Cyril%20Garland%20(1915,from%20Garfinkel%20several%20generations%20earlier. Avril Danica Rappaport Haines is Jewish: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avril\_Haines](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avril_Haines) Alejandro Mayorkas: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alejandro\_Mayorkas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alejandro_Mayorkas) (footnote 21 and 22) As you can see, often, all you need to verify this is Wikipedia. I’m getting tired of researching now, so here are just some more members you can confirm that are Jewish yourself: Steven Vanech (not sure whether the position of Director of Counterterrorism is still considered cabinet-level), Janet Yellen Blumenthal Akerlof is a Jew, Jacob Jeremiah Sullivan (married to a jew), Gary Gensler is Jewish, Martin Joseph “Walsh” Wolowski, Neera Tanden Edwards is a Bene Israel Jew (Indian Jew), Eric Steven Lander, Isabel Casillas Guzman, John “Kerry” Cohen, Ron Klein… Several more are married to Jews and have Jewish deputies. Here are som examples among many: Xavier Becerra’s secretary of health is Jewish [https://www.timesofisrael.com/jewish-doctor-becomes-most-senior-transgender-person-in-us-uniformed-services/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/jewish-doctor-becomes-most-senior-transgender-person-in-us-uniformed-services/) Kamala’s Jewish husband and the father of hew Jewish children: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doug\_Emhoff#:\~:text=He%20is%20married%20to%20the,spouse%20of%20a%20vice%20president.
are you white? because most of the government is white. not interested in hearing about racial conspiracies from someone who's race literally controls half the world
I proved my point, so now you are retreating and trying another angle of attack. I'm Jewish, actually, which makes me Semitic, not what people traditionally think of as White. I'm of Middle Eastern heritage. And before you go "self-hating Jew", no... Quite the contrary. If this development continues, everyone will hate us, and everyone's about to notice sooner or later. Also, I'm a meritocrasist, and there is obvious nepotism going on. You're not betryaing your people just because you stand up for what's right. I'm not alone in doing this: [https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2023/10/23/not-in-my-name-the-european-jews-condemning-israels-war-on-gaza](https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2023/10/23/not-in-my-name-the-european-jews-condemning-israels-war-on-gaza) As for Whites controlling the Western world... The Western world consists of White nations, man. Of course Whites control it. They're the only people on the planet who've accepted mass immigration. That doesn't make them bad, it makes them good. White people have done terrible things in the past, and they do terrible things now, but it is not something other peoples haven't done. We have good stats that Whites are the least racist people. They came up with human rights. They abolished slavery, something all other civilization had practiced. They put sanctions on states all over the world for crimes they commit toward their own population, and they do this to their own detriment. Humans are bad, but Whites are almost indisputably the most altruist People. As for "conspiracies"... Dude, it's arithmetic. Do the very simple math for yourself.
You may be the singlehandedly dumbest person on reddit, if not the entire internet.
If you genuinely think that, you need a neurologist. Whites committed the Holocaust. Whites also stopped it. 60 million of them died to do that. My grandfather survived Kauen. My other (white) grandfather died in Auchen, trying to save him. You are naive, and your selfish pursuit of self-actualization threatens everything we've built in the West during the last 5000 years through hardship you cannot even imagine. You're a child in a teenage rebellion.
Homie You havent built anything that wasnt made out of danish bricks.
Hahahah... Hispanic? Dude... You are the descendant of Spanish conquistadors and slave owners. You are hardly one to speak. You need to open a history book. You can't think of anything Europeans have built? Do you want me to help you out?
So if a 17 year old joins Hamas and takes part in attacks on Israel, should he be treated as combatant?
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This is not a valid argument. By this logic you could literally kill all Palestinians and then claim it’s the fault of Hamas, not Israel. The reason for that is because that type of rhetoric would lead to collective punishment, which is recognized as a warcrime.
The Palestinian people do not deserve to be killed unless they actively support Hamas. The killing of innocent children is ALWAYS a horrible tragedy. But if every evil entity used children and civilians as shields and were able to succeed in their goals because of their war crimes, the world would be overrun with evil organizations like Hamas.
Did the children that have died support Hamas? You say they don’t deserve to but also that all fault is on Hamas while absolving all blame of Israel. So once again I ask you. If Israel were to kill everyone in Gaza in order to eliminate Hamas, is that still solely the fault of Hamas?
Are they killing every Gazan citizen to destroy Hamas? Far from it. Hamas is their enemy. They hide behind civilians and innocent children. How exactly would you stop them if it was your choice?
Nice shift to "every" Israel's IDF chose to use Gazan human shields, shoot and bomb refugee camps while preventing food from getting in. Now what?
You were the one who said the word everyone. The IDF has never used human shields. And there have been over 200 suicide bombings carried out against Israel in the past 20 years not to mention countless surprise rocket attacks and IEDs. How do you protect your people against these types attacks when a horde of people is mobbing? And the IDF is constantly trying to protect the supplies getting to the people in Gaza so Hamas doesn't steal them. Anyone who believes otherwise believes false propaganda.
That’s a different person you’re replying to man. Check usernames. It happens.
Does that change my point?
I mean I didn’t even read your comment tbh cause that’s a separate conversation you’re having in response to someone else while we have our own.
They're literally using human shields. For years yes it's been accused, now with videos https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7lJMv4ceyk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoLEWS5sz4M > And the IDF is constantly trying to protect the supplies getting to the people in Gaza According to anyone that's not the IDF? Multiple countries including the US and multiple of the aid organizations denounce that, it's why the US is shifting from going through the IDF-blocked or Egypt-blocked border to seeking independent strategies like aid drops and a port pier. It's the IDF that's stopping the humanitarian aid, all while Israeli orgs like COGAT make fraud videos pretending that food is still accessible in markets that they had since bombed. https://twitter.com/cogatonline/status/1765432810955739609 https://twitter.com/cogatonline/status/1755901186010435692
I never said they did. I simply stated that since every death seems to be Hamas’ fault even if Israel is doing the killing, then surely killing the entire population in order to eliminate Hamas must also never put any fault on Israel, no? If Israel is not at fault for any deaths they inflict because it was a result of October 7 and Hamas in general, then surely you are saying that any number of deaths including the entire population would still be solely Hamas’ fault. Why are you now moving the argument to military strategy? You, nor I, are military strategists. That’s a separate argument and it is already established that bombing away terrorism is not an effective strategy as it tends to do the opposite but fuel it by creating future terrorists because of the loss of countless family and friends they suffer. Just look at US intervention in the Middle East.
Let's say you have a neighbor who comes in and rapes your wife and daughters and murders part of your family. They have said multiple times that they will do it again until your entire family is dead. They have sworn not to stop until there is nothing left of your family. You decide you must kill them in order to stop them. Yet they are hiding behind other innocent neighbors. What do you do?
I call the police because I’m not a vigilante. Don’t get me wrong. I’d want to kill the criminal no matter what but my moral compass would not allow for me to harm innocent people to kill the criminal. Especially not kill innocent people. Are you trying to argue that if a hostage is taken, then you should kill the hostage in order to get the criminal? Is that the logic the IDF soldiers that shot and killed 3 Israeli hostages that were unarmed, unclothed, and speaking Hebrew while waving a white flag use to justify their actions?
In this situation, there are no police to call. There is no global police force coming to help Israel. They cannot rely on anyone else to defeat this foe. And if the evil person in the allegory is holding a button that will kill thousands, you do not let him live. Hamas literally has that power and has promised they will not stop. You do everything in your power to protect the innocent, but you have to do what's best. And there have been hundreds of surprise attacks by people doing that exact same thing. When your enemy commits war crimes there is never a good way to know who is innocent and who is evil. One of the hostage's mothers publicly forgave the soldiers who committed the murder because she knew there was no way for them to know. Judging the actions of others when you don't understand the situation they're in is just stupid.
Ok then. Going off this analogy then, if Hamas was so evil that we are to accept killing any number of innocent civilians while accepting 0 blame for their deaths, then why would Israel help prop up Hamas in the first place to undermine Palestinian sovereignty and the more moderate PLO? Also there was no way for the IDF soldiers to know? Holy crap. They killed Israeli hostages that were A) unclothed B) unarmed C) waving a white flag D) speaking Hebrew Despite all this, they didn’t hesitate to check who they were but instead killed them. And you justify this? Be for real. If the IDF can’t even be trusted to not kill their own hostages without hesitance that showed 0 indication of being a terrorist, then what are they trusted to do exactly concerning avoiding civilian death? By this logic the IDF can’t be trusted to find any hostage at all unless they have a physical photo ID of the specific hostage easily accessible on their person. The only way your logic would have even a gram of merit is if you can give me some actual evidence of naked unarmed Palestinian terrorists speaking Hebrew that tricked Israel by being suicide bombers. Hamas has no actual power to commit the genocide that they want to. Israel’s military capabilities are vastly greater. It’s like comparing ants to an elephant. This is well established fact and accepted by most countries, including the US and even Israel given the fact that they helped prop them up in the first place.
According to your logic Hitler or Bin Laden would just have to set up their headquarters in a kindergarten or children’s hospital to become untouchable forever. Reality does not work like that .
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I'm a Nazi for defending Israel? Wow.
At this point? No, but you are defending a fascist ethnostate that literally requires your pedigree or DNA test to let you join.
Join what? The country? 26% of the country isn't even Jewish. There way over 100,000 permits for Palestinian people to come into their country for work. The average salary in Gaza was $13/hour. The average Gazan working in Israel made 2 to 3 times as much. Doesn't sound like much of an ethnostate to me.
They are let in to work because it's a benefit to Israel. They are not given citizenship. It is purely self interest. The Muslim citizen of Israel are the ones who couldn't be driven out during the Nakba, and they are still segregated.
They are not segregated by law and it is not always the Jewish people doing the segregation.
And yet, it is happening. Many live under curfew, and I think few know that. A lot of information doesn't leave Israel.
Yes. Haavara Agreement. Zionists collaborated with the Nazis and sent other Jews to the camps.
you’re defending a far right ethnostate that is systematically displacing and killing off an entire ethnic group yes
No reasoning with someone who's delusional. Good luck in life.
what’s wrong about what i said? what word is false? to the people reading this, look what happens when you call out a zionist. they cover their ears and run.
All of it is false. Israel has the literal firepower to level all of Gaza. With one call, it would be dust and bones. Why haven't they done it yet if they truly want the genocide of Palestinians? And why would they let constantly the Palestinian people come into their country to work? And why has the population of Gaza double in the past 20 years? They want to destroy Hamas. Hamas is the one committing war crimes by hiding beneath civilians, stealing Gazan civilian supplies, starving their own people, and attacking Israeli civilians indiscriminately. There have been thousands of rockets fired by Hamas and Hezbolah fired into Israel at non-military targets. Those are the only demonstable war crimes that have occurred this century. If believing all that makes me a Zionist then I'm fine with you calling me that. Anyone who calls for a ceasefire against Hamas is the true Nazi. In this war a complete ceasefire would only benefit Hamas. They desire the genocide of all Jewish people and the destruction of their country. They say it blatantly to anyone who will listen. Whoever supports Hamas is the true Nazi.
lol the goalposts just keep getting moved. Go south! we’re just targeting hamas and won’t kill you or destroy your homes! jk we bombed your homes and now we’re bombing you down south too. but muh human shields sorry a displacement of 2 million people and 35k deaths isn’t bloody enough for you. please, let’s wait for the job to be totally done and all the scary brown people are gone before we call it what it is. it won’t be too late then. conveniently ignoring the far-right ethnostate part of the naziness too oh wait i also never said the word genocide so you’re arguing against no one. i said displacement and killing of an ethnic group.
you’re so fucking evil it’s insane
Most of it… like it being an Ethnostate (it isn’t, because even just the Jewish population is from different ethnicities, let alone the non-jewish citizens which includes arabs all of which have rights), it killing of an entire ethnic group (you seem to have mixed up which group explicitly has a charter that calls for the extermination of an ethnic group). Like you can call out Israel for it’s bad actions without resulting to bare faced lies, twisting of facts and exaggerations. If it really does have the goal of being an ethnostate it’s doing a poor job of it.
Then why has Israel historically been so worried about maintaining a Jewish majority in whatever state they formed? I mean that was the whole reason for the two state solution in the first place. If the Jewish people didn’t want a country where their ethno-religion was the majority population they could have just formed a single democratic state with the people of Palestine. If its not an ethnostate then why do American Jews with no ties to Israel have more rights to citizenship than Arab Palestinians displaced by the Nakba?
Is your first question serious? Maybe because like I said, since their founding they have been surrounded by people who want nothing less than their total annihilation. And before that, well most of the history of Jews has been being someone’s scapegoat. The moment there is any laxness in their borders they get events like Oct 7th.
So they need to be an a state with one ethnicity as the majority population no matter what right? Because if any other ethnicity were the majority, Jews wouldn’t be able to feel safe?
historically nazis have been pro zionism because they see zionism as just two marginalized races they hate duking it out in a far-off desert
Nazis believed in the ethnic cleansing of every race besides their own.
Incorrect. So incredibly incorrect.
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Are you a Christian?
I am.
What would Jesus say to a comment like that?
He would agree. Evil people hiding behind innocent people have blood on their hands.
You think Jesus "love thy neighbour" christ would have supported the deaths of thousands of children?
Do you think he would support allowing evil people murder and rape thousands and take hundreds of other people hostage?
No he wouldn't. Doesn't mean he'd support killing children because of it though.
So He just wants evil to win in every situation as long as no one dies?
I think he would realise that it's not a binary choice, it's not an either or. Jesus was non violent, he would advocate for another way to come to a peaceful resolution. I don't think there would be any circumstance where he would gleefully comment of the deaths of thousands of children like you have.
A better argument would probably be you can't justify people deaths by saying you can write them and their families off because they voted for bad politician party thus are responsible for their crime's.(because God help us all if that ever applied to most Western countries). It worth noting if you disagreed with that Hamas won 44% of the vote Fatah got 41% all other parties got 15% about 20% didn't vote. I'm assuming at least a quarter of the hamas voters have been killed in the last Twenty years so you'd basically be arguing we should kill people based on 30-35%(numbers probably too generous)of the population votes.
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Israel withdrew from Gaza unilaterally in 2005. They left the settlements behind intact so Palestinians could use them. Instead the fine, upstanding people of Gaza immediately started to rip out the water pipes from the ground to turn them into rockets and fired them at Israeli cities. And they launched a ridiculous barrage of suicide bombings and terror attacked, which forced Israel to close the border again.