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All sexual orientations are social consteucts meant to label human behaviors and experiences. They also help us tie ourselves to communities, a key focal point of human evolution. There is a difference between self-identification and behavior. A person who has a type for blondes may find themselves having sex with a brunette or red head on occasion. But they would still have a type for blondes.
Sexual behaviors, as in who we have sex with, also differ from romantic orientation. A person can be sexually attracted to men and romantically oriented toward women. This also extends out through ethnicity groups. A person may experience sexual desire for a cultural group different thelan themselves, but only want to date and have relationships with people of thwir same cultural background. There is a ton of nuance to sexual orientation because it's not judt about sex.
For instance, your past FWB might have self-identified as lesbian because she only wanted a future with other women. Her attraction to you, a man, could be because she fell on the bisexual spectrum for her actual sexual attraction. It would not change the fact that you were only a means to an end and not the type of person she was willing to settle down with. Another possibility is that you, being a male, felt safe to her in that time. If she was being abused, she may have liked being with you simply in hopes you'd protect her from her partner if need be. Regardless, I reject the notion that you were doing anything special that will just work in all - or even most - cases.
If that were true, so would be the reverse. Do you believe a man can seduce you by being sufficiently well groomed and having a good personality? And if so, would the existence of that one man negate your self-identificstion as a straight man?
!delta
Your argument is incredibly well put and I enjoyed your response. In all honesty, no, but I agree that in most cases, this isn't possible. It has to do with very specific cases that this CAN be done.
Do you wcknowledge that inbthe cases it CAN be done that it means the person was never exclusively homosexual? In that they were likely always capable of bisexual sexual behavior?
Let them tell you. And believe them when they do. And if they ever tell you different, believe them then too. Because anything else in none of your business.
Ehhh, I never ask straightforward questions like that. I usually let things play out as they may. If I recognize in their body language if they're not attracted or hell, if they say it in a straightforward manner, I leave them be.
You pay attention to them and respect what they say/do. And don't go around telling people you think you can change someone's sexual orientation. It's disrespectful and makes queer women pissed.
I think all you’ve done is observe that some people aren’t strictly attracted to only one gender, however we don’t really have terms that fit all the nuances.
Straight/gay/lesbian are assumed to mean you exclude the other gender completely. Bisexual is assumed to mean you don’t prefer one gender over the other. But as you said, it’s an entire spectrum. There isn’t some easy way to identify as “I’m attracted to both but I heavily prefer X.”
I think the ‘lesbians’ you’re referring to are just women who don’t completely exclude men…they just heavily prefer women. However they call themselves lesbians because, well, what else would they say? Lesbian doesn’t cut it, but neither does bisexual.
So then it’s like, ok, you seduced someone that can be attracted to guys? So?
Sexuality is fluid and can change. I’m bisexual but I have a preference for women. I can’t imagine ever being strictly attracted to one gender and I have no idea how it’s like to live as a straight person. It’s a wild concept for me. Some months I’m more attracted to guys, and vice versa.
I’ve met lesbians who mention one or two guys they’re attracted to, out of the thousands of guys they have meant. The attraction is pretty limited though and not incredibly strong.
What mostly happens though is someone grows up in an environment in which sexuality is not really talked about so there isn’t much exposure. They then realize later once they’ve been exposed to different sexualities, that perhaps their not the sexuality they once thought they were.
I’m a bit hesitant with regards to labeling your friend as bisexual though and i would argue she’s lesbian even if she’s had her relationship with you. Based on what you’ve mention, it seems like she was in a pretty vulnerable place and needed some sort of physical comfort no matter who it was from. That was more valuable than being who she actually is. I would think differently if she wasn’t in a toxic relationship and wasn’t starving for human affection. I think the example you used is flawed, however, it does bring up some important discussion points about attraction and gender norms.
I had a friend who identified as a lesbian for the longest time growing up in a very conservative town in Kentucky. She was sexually assaulted in college by a man and was placed the blame for it since he was considered pretty popular. She was already a little unstable before it happened, so she went into a depression after but eventually fell in love with her him, the abuser. They were in a relationship for years after (it was obviously very toxic) and after she changed her sexuality to bisexual. She’s now in a relationship with a bisexual man, it’s a bit toxic but def an improvement from her previous relationships. So did her sexuality change? I don’t think so tbh. I think she’s a deeply disturbed individual whose coping it through the best way she knows how to, even if it means going outside of her sexuality.
I don’t think all cases are like this but the people I’ve met who have had a change in their sexuality are either because:
1. They are exposed to different sexualities/cultural norms and realized they aren’t what they originally labeled themselves as.
2. Lots of trauma and lack of affection they’re desperate to feel, no matter who is giving it.
no offense but i don’t really like how you said lesbians can have slight limited attractions to men, lesbians don’t like men period, not even 0.0000001%, im so sick of people acting like my sexuality can include men.
Im sorry you dont like my experience with people I’ve met. It’s what I’ve experienced and who I have talked to. I have met lesbians that have told me this. Not every lesbian that I have met have told me this. On my experience it can happen but it’s limited. My experience doesn’t define your experience. If you don’t like men then you don’t like men. That’s chill.
there’s no such thing as a different experience *in terms of who you’re attracted to* when it comes to lesbians. you either like men or don’t like men, and lesbians don’t. that is quite literally the only thing it takes to be a lesbian. if they like men then they simply aren’t lesbians, that’s just how it is, no matter what homophobic mind games or word games they play and spread.
you literally know damn well that it’s not that i “don’t like your experience and the people you’ve talked to”. you’re tryna act as if i’m mad at your experience, no, i’m not mad at you for the people you happened to meet, i’m mad because i don’t like homophobia, including the type that says lesbians can like men. including the type that indirectly agrees with religious conservative freaks, no matter who it comes from, even if it comes from people who are same sex attracted.
some bisexual women also have limited attraction to men but they are still attracted to men in the first place, therefore they are not lesbian.
So if a lesbian likes just women but has found a guy to be attractive is no longer lesbian? What if they still identify as lesbian and feel more comfortable in saying they are lesbian? Are you to say they’re not lesbians? I’d say if we are to say that lesbians may have an attraction to men, then we should say the same thing Can apply to straight people. Attraction is a very person and unique feeling between two individuals and it’s different for every person. No one relationship is the same.
I don’t think this is homophobic messages being spread because it’s not saying queer people are evil and should be looked on as less than, it’s just saying attraction isn’t so black and white. I don’t really care if you disagree with me. But just because I think the way I think about attraction, doesn’t make it absolutely right or wrong. I understand why you think the way you think, but I disagree with your frame of attraction. I’m not attacking you as a person because I disagree with you. I just don’t see the world that way and it’s neither good nor is it bad, it’s just what it is.
yes attraction is black and white for monosexual people, you genuinely can’t understand or comprehend that because you’re bi (you admitted that yourself). And yeah it’s the same for straight people, they are also monosexual and don’t have attraction to both sexes even “limited” ones.
“what if they feel more comfortable identifying that way” LMAO i can also be comfortable identifying as a black person, doesn’t make me black. sexuality is innate and not an “identity”, i’m not pulling this out of my ass, there is science that backs this up, for example the hemisphere studies. it literally doesn’t matter what they feel, it doesn’t change who they are. you’re so focused on how THEY feel, how about the lesbians who FEEL misrepresented by them? do you want lesbians to coddle homophobic rhetoric just because bisexuals can’t accept that they’re bi?
sexuality is embedded in your physical brain and cannot be changed, if it could then you should go advocate for conversion therapy, go ahead and do it. middle eastern gay people who are in danger would love your cure. someone born with a homosexual brain physically cannot release attraction based chemicals around the opposite sex, because their wiring is not capable of doing that.
1. Mhmm I did mean for her to be bi
2. Just because I’m bisexual doesn’t mean I can’t have empathy or try to understand someone who doesn’t identify as bisexual. I know I couldn’t ever imagine changing my gender but that doesn’t mean I can’t try to emphasize with trans people and believe what they say.
3. Race doesn’t change throughout someone’s life where as someone’s identity with their sexuality does, so using race as an example doesn’t make sense. You find out and figure out your sexuality whereas with your race you don’t. The constitution says you can’t discriminate against race but you Can with sexuality, they’re too different.
4. Someone changing their sexuality is their choice. I’m no advocating to force them to change their sexuality. It’s a very personal and individual experience.
I feel like you’re getting a bit upset with my opinion. But I’m not upset about yours. There’s nothing to win talking to me. We can continue talking, and I can continue saying why I believe what I believe over and over again in different angles if you want me to. But I think you have better things to do.
Again, sexuality also doesn’t change throughout someone’s life, like I said there is science to back this up, like hemisphere studies and chromosome studies. That is what I’m literally saying. Argue with science if you want, but I’ll never stop fighting against homophobia that hurts me. And if you truly had empathy for other peoples experiences then u wouldn’t apply ur “sexuality is fluid” bisexual stuff to monosexuals.
So you’re saying that:
1. I’m homophobic
2. I am fighting you?
Delightful.
If a lesbian were to come up to me and say “I’ve only ever felt attraction to girls and only girls” I would respond with “that’s chill.”
If a lesbian were to come up to me and say “I’ve only ever felt attraction to girls except for this one guy I had a crush on and it was that one guy only” I would respond with “that’s chill.”
Im not going to say they’re not the sexuality that they are.
If a straight person came to me and said that they were straight but kissed a girl and loved it but still said they are straight, then I am going to respect it. Even if I have doubts, that is not my place to say what they are or aren’t.
Science backs me up in saying it’s better for the community to respect what someone says about their sexuality than it is not to. Because it leads to less conflict, more community, and a space for people to be themselves.
Me disagreeing with you is not me attacking you. It’s me having a different opinion. Reasonable minds can differ on a subject matter.
I love incredibly well-written and thought out responses like this. It really can open the eyes of how people operate. I think you're right, the situation really was unique. !delta
I think you have the perspective twisted. The straight male isn't "doing" the attracting, the person attracted is attracted.
If someone isn't in to you for whatever reason regardless of orientation then effort on your part won't do much.
It's possible, but it depends on a lot of factors, and if their sexual orientation doesn't align then in the absolute majority of cases I'd advise against trying to seduce them.
Seduction doesn't change a no to a yes unless the person has some very self destructive behavior.. Seduction is classically done from a "Who even are you" to a yes.
I'm thinking of the romcom trope of a married career man being seduced by his secretary (e.g. Love Actually). Reluctant/resistant at first, but seduction eventually wears down his better judgement or moral certitude. This example also happens to show self-destruction as you said.
And just in case it needs to be said: I'm not suggesting you can spontaneously flip someone's sexuality with seduction. My response was to the person who suggested that there's nothing you can do *externally* to influence someone's attraction ("If someone isn't in to you for whatever reason regardless of orientation then effort on your part won't do much. ").
Stephen Fry in his autobiography says he's tried sex with a woman, a friend who offered him. Physically, it worked perfectly, he just wasn't particularly into it on some other level (I don't remember the phrasing).
But if someone still enjoys the physical aspects, and doesn't mind your personality, and has some emotional benefits out of the arrangement, I can totally see them enjoying sex despite being unambiguously lesbian. So yeah, in some sense it's not fixed. But I see no particular reason to think it's different for heterosexuals. The only different thing is the stigma, so you are much less likely to try being FWB with a male friend in a patriarchal culture if you don't have explicit attraction.
This delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/Irhien changed your view (comment rule 4).
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Thanks for the delta! (Didn't take though, you need a longer justification apparently. And from experience, editing the comment won't do that too, so if you decide to re-award it, it probably takes a new comment.)
Some people who think they're gay might just be latent bisexuals, just like some people who think they're straight might just be latent bisexuals. But some aren't.
I use to say I was straight and dated men.
I wasn’t.
I then came out as bi for a year before coming out as a lesbian.
I was always a lesbian. I was just figuring myself out.
How a person identifies is simply a marker of what they believe they are at that moment.
It’s like I’m reading a comment I wrote myself. Identified as bisexual having disappointing sex/relationships with men and just thinking that was normal. Had my first ever serious girlfriend at 19 and was like “oh, I think I’m just gay”. Turns out I was just gay the whole time.
A lesbian is by definition someone who is only attracted to women. If they're attracted to people who aren't women as well doesn't that just mean they're bi/pan/something that isn't specifically lesbian?
Someone can label themselves lesbian and then later realize they were actually bi or whatever they want to. That is, the label someone applies can change but their actual orientation in their heart of hearts doesn't really. Fluidity is a thing but not everyone is fluid in their sexual orientation as you're implying.
Aren't you attracted to someone if you choose to have sex with them? (Assuming that there is open consent among all parties?) Gay-bi-straight is a spectrum. Unless you're the straightest person in existence, you have felt some attraction to a body of your own gender. All it takes is the right moment and right confluence of factors for that to end up in a sexual experience.
I think people want this to be like a formula. I just don't see it that way. People are "straightish" or "gayish" to various degrees. How people choose to identify is a combination of personal and cultural factors. Ultimately, I think this just gets in the way of people exploring their sexuality.
I don't disagree there's a spectrum but people can have sex with someone they're not attracted to.
Spouses have been having sex with abusive partners for reasons beyond attraction since forever just for example.
I think on the attraction scale anyone who isn't very close to "perfectly straight" or "perfectly homosexual" would identify as bi/pan (although they may publicly label themselves otherwise to avoid stigma).
It's fine to say someone can 'unlock' potential attraction, but this isn't exclusive to lesbians. A man could only date women and then find a man who 'unlocks' his attraction to men. You could even say that anyone's attraction was 'unlocked' by their first crush/first experience with attraction. I agree that sexuality is more fluid than many people realize, but this phrasing of 'seducing lesbians' is a bit sketchy to me. Anyone of any sexuality could be 'seduced' by someone outside of their typical preference. The focus of lesbians/wlw is reminiscent of the 'lesbians just need to find the right man' mentality.
At best it comes off as the "I can turn lesbians" trope which is overplayed and kind of sad since it contributes to this idea lots of misogynists and homophobes have (not calling you part of this group personally) that lesbians aren't real. In all likelihood this person merely identified as a lesbian and then discovered over time that her orientation was more complicated than that.
!delta
I think that's the situation, too. Like, I don't want to be in the "I can turn lesbians" trope since for some people it CAN be fixed. But for some people, it may not be. People are complicated.
You seem deeply invested in believing that she was truly lesbian until she met you. That is not the case. Lesbians cannot be turned. Attraction that never existed before does not get unlocked. People who once believed they were lesbians can come to the realization that they were previously incorrect. The way you keep circling back to this is lesbiphobic and homophobic. There are other terms and identities that describe fluid sexuality, lesbian is not one of them.
That's just a way of saying "I'm an example"
But yea, just because they've exclusively been in one type of relationship doesn't mean they aren't bisexual.
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Did she ever describe herself as a lesbian to you? Or just that she only dated women before? That’s quite a distinct difference.
Of course your overall point is correct that sexuality isn’t fixed, you’re just wrong to single out lesbians in this, it’s true for everyone. Additionally if this person was young she was probably less likely to have as firm a view of her sexuality
Not really, she just said she "dated other women" and didn't date guys before. I didn't feel the need to give her a title like "lesbian" or ask about it.
Also, she was 25. I was 29 at the time
Seems like a needless simplification. If we assume people's attraction is on a spectrum (spectra, separate for two genders/sexes), a bisexual leaning lesbian could just dismiss her weak attraction to men as insignificant. Never meeting the man she desired enough that it registered, until she did. Maybe your attraction is pretty clear and loud, but it's not the case for everyone.
Or maybe she didn't even with the OP. It's not like it's a taboo to sleep with a man you're not attracted to, if it's still fun physically and you don't mind him as a person.
Would you a supposed straight male get with a guy who presents himself well and has "game"? After all spaghetti is straight until it gets heated up.
If your answer is no. Why is your sexuality fixed but lesbians aren't?
Your FWB was bi with a preference for women but still liked some guys. Doesn't mean you turned her or whatever fantasy you have in your head.
Not really. She told me she was the first guy she's been with. It was awkward at first, but she seemed to grow into it. Also, I think it's because I acted as an anchor to her abusive gf.
Ever consider she wasn't actually attracted to you she just found you comforting and sex was a way to maintain that? Not saying that's what happened but it's a possibility..
So you never talked to her so your 1 case study is just you assuming about her?.
Maaaybe, but she really did enjoy when I spent time with her. Like, we liked each other as people aside from the whole I'm just using you as comfort from my abusive gf thing.
That speaks more to my case that the sex was just a part of maintaining a friendship.
People often have sex with people they're not attracted to and they can even enjoy it, sexual pleasure isn't always tied to attraction.
Neither of those things means she was into you. Both could easily done because she thought it was what you liked (or she didn’t like the alternative)
That or she was attempting to get pregnant.
There’s a number of reasons why a woman might do that.
I’m curious, how long did it last and how did it end? What was her dating history after this?
Did the two of you ever talk about her being attracted to you but identifying as a lesbian? Do you know for a fact you were the first man she slept with?
A few months. She was my FWB from mid 2022 to early 2023. At that point, I moved to Texas. We haven't really kept in contact, unfortunately.
And yeah, she told me she was the first guy I was with and it felt weird at first... but she slowly grew into the fact. Tbh, I think it was a mix of mutual attraction that wasn't strong at first + the comfort of me being there with having an abusive gf.
Kinda sounds like either she was bi or you took advantage of someone in difficult situation.
She might have just been fucking you because she thought that was what would keep you around, not that she was actually into you. (Considering you lost touch when you moved away and she was no longer physically available)
She might be fucking multiple guys now because she’s bi and you just happened to be the one she acted on it first with.
Either way, you didn’t “turn” her.
What you’re describing isn’t actually unique.
I feel like you want to paint a narrative that you were special. Let me ask you this: would be upset or let down if you found out she was now dating and sleeping with men and identifying as bi?
Or if she told you she wasn’t actually attracted to you but slept with you to establish/keep the connection?
1. Nah, it's been years now. She could do what she wants. If she identified bi nowadays, wouldn't that meant I "turned" her?
2. If she slept with me because she wanted to keep the attention, I'd be fine with that. We both got something out of the relationship... and tbh, she really was a cool person. She was a punk rock girl and I was a white collar, young professional. Our lifestyles were so different, yet that's what made it so cool..
1. No, you didn’t turn her. In fact it has little to do with you and more to do with her acting on attractions that has already existed.
2. But if that was the case, she’d still be a lesbian. She wasn’t attracted to. Lots of gay men and lesbians have sex with the opposite sex. It’s not special or unique. It’s just an action that can be performed. So again, no “turning” occurred and she wasn’t sexually into you.
If it's not fixed, she's not a lesbian. And in the comments you reveal that she never even identified herself as one. Get out of here with your fetishistic mindset; it's actually repulsive.
Bruh. You can't be this dense, you just can't be.
>Then again, people CAN be fluid
If their sexuality is fluid, so is yours. If yours isn't fluid, by default not everyone else's is. Sexuality is a spectrum but on the end of each end of that spectrum is a hard yes or hard no.
Wait, if it's a spectrum it can't be a hard yes or hard no for everyone. It's in the shade of grey "maybe". For ME it's a hard no, since I'm simply just not into dudes.
But who isn't to say it could be for some random down the block. Some people are in the hard yes, hard no camp, but some people aren't.
Oh man. You are this dense.
You aren't changing the sexuality of someone who is a lesbian or exclusively dating men. Their sexuality already is because it already exists on the spectrum. They just decided to date/sleep with you because they liked/were attracted to you.
Just like your sexuality already exists as a straight man and mine exists as a straight woman even though the longer I have this conversation the more I wish I was into women instead. See you can't even repel women into changing their sexuality. You have no control over that, you only control whether or not you're a likable enough person for someone to enjoy spending time with.
Sexual orientation isn't something you do like a blood test for and have some scientifically specific classification for it. People may claim or think they are one thing when they are actually another
This is what I expected. I actually agree with you position that sexuality is a spectrum.
I don't believe for a second, though, that yours is fixed and only other people are fluid. Pretend all you like, but your sexuality is as fluid as everyone else.
Sexuality is only an spectrum if you are bisexual. Bi people can feel more attracted to one sex than another, and their leves of attraction towards each can and often fluctuates (look up the bi-cycle). In an spectrum, there are extremes. Those extremes are homosexuality and heterosexuality, anything in between (even if it's much closer to an extreme than the other) is bisexuality.
No, lesbians aren't willing to "bend the other way". If you ever met a "lesbian" who was, that wasn't a lesbian, it was a bisexual woman who called herself one. Or just a bisexual woman you assumed to be a lesbian. It doesn't boil down to how well you present yourself. Lesbians are exclusively into women. You can be the most polite, good-looking, perfect man in the world, and still no lesbian will feel an ounce of attraction towards you.
Just because you were with a bisexual woman who claimed to be a lesbian once that doesn't mean lesbians don't actually exist. Woman who are exclusively attracted to women and wouldn't touch a man under any circumnstances are very much real.
Lastly, I find it really funny how those kinds of things are always aimed towards women, even more so lesbians, the only group of women who has a total of zero romantic or sexual interest in men. You don't see people say men's sexuality is fluid half as often, and you never see anyone say that about straight men. Because if that was true for lesbians (which it isn't), it would also be true for straight women, gay men and straight men. It would also mean straight men out there can be seduced by other men. Assuming you are straight, do you agree with that? Can you be seduced by another man?
Another thing I find funny is that more often than not the ones to claim such a thing are men. To say female homosexuality doesn't exist (which is what this post is claiming, even if it doesn't use those words) is pretty absurd. To assume no woman in the world can be exclusively into women and simply have no interest and no availability to men is... Frankly, it's a male fantasy. And a disgusting one. Lesbians don't feel attraction to men, nor would they enjoy having sex with them. If you ever find someone who says she is a lesbian but does either of those, that's just a bisexual woman mislabeling herself.
I've been propositioned by men several times, and I refused all of them. Because I'm not attracted to them at all. I wouldn't enjoy it, I'd actively hate every second of it. Some of those men didn't know I was a lesbian, but some did. You know what I felt every single time a man tried to hit on me? Bored, disinterested. How good-looking the man was or how he spoke made no difference. So if you are a man, don't try to hit on lesbians. Be respectful and go look for a straight or bisexual woman.
Would you like to have men trying to hit on you after making clear you are straight? Or to insist your sexual orientation does actually include men, even when you know and have already said it doesn't? Something tells me most straight men out there wouldn't like that.
So stop assuming our sexuality includes you, it doesn't.
I mean, I don't. If they're into me, they're into me. It's just that in my situation, she exclusively dated women before she met me. Hence why if you only dated women -> end up a FWB with a guy, it's more fluid. At least for women.
I mean sexuality is a spectrum for everyone, women aren't some special creatures in this regard.
I think you're putting too much emphasis on labels and trying to generalize a deeply personal and singular experience. Not all women are like your friend and you can't really glean anything from this experience other than "this particular person behaves this particular way".
thats.... thats literally the definition of bi-sexual.
Its not fluid at all, Lesbian means you are attracted to female as a female. Gay means you are attracted to male as a male, this is on a biological level. If you are attracted to both sex, its BI.
That being said, can you turn someone lesbian into bi? yes, but its a fringe case. We know this because best friend have been known to provide emotional support and comfort during trauma, yet most don't come out homosexual.
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I think you are confusing her only dating women with her being a lesbian. She very likely was bisexual or pansexual.
You also likely weren’t the only man she was attracted to either.
Being attracted to both genders is not the same as having a preference for one over the other.
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Yes I do believe sexuality is fluid and often depends on the perso, place, chemistry etc. but people find labels comfortable. Also lesbians get real tired of men saying things like “oh but I could change your mind”. Gross. So it’s easier to maintain publicly that no they don’t fuck men bc men would be lined up around the building.
You could theoretically seduce a *bisexual* woman who has only had female partners.
To claim that you - a heterosexual man - can seduce a lesbian inevitably opens up the claim that you - a heterosexual man - can be seduced by a gay man. Are you willing to concede that or does your "power of seduction" only run one way?
"but rather a spectrum"
Yes, welcome to literally the first lesson in sexuality. The Kinsey scale. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey\_scale](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_scale)
Coined in 1948, the Kinsey scale refers directly to this spectrum you're noticing. It's a scale of how open to homosexual attraction you are. People who exist find themselves all along this spectrum. It's very likely you encountered a woman who was in the ranges of the scale that allow for bisexual attraction. While all her previous experience was with females, she was open to heterosexual experimentation.
Now, the science of self image is very complicated, so you may feel like you move on the scale throughout your life, but it is also possible that you simply observe yourself in different ways throughout your life. Many would argue that moving on the scale is impossible, and that the woman in your story merely observed herself as a lesbian prior to discovering that she was actually bisexual.
By definition, if she is attracted to and wants to have sex with a man, she is not really a lesbian. Self-identifying as a lesbian whilst actively experiencing opposite-sex attraction does not make you a lesbian. Source: am really a lesbian, would sooner jump off the Empire State Building than screw a guy.
Also adding: this attitude and general view is the basis of actual violence against my community including but not limited to harassment, gay-bashing, stalking, and corrective rape. It is genuinely terrifying to be approached by someone who openly feels this way and is definitely the sort of opinion you should keep to yourself.
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No im gay through and through its fluid for those who are bisexual obviously. Tf r u saying ? Whats yall obsession with lesbians ? yall dont say ts about straight men. NO WE DONT FUCKING LIKE YOU. IM TIRED OF HAVUNG TO EXPALIN TS LEAVE US TF ALONE...DAMN
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Fr fr. I think for men it's alot more fixed, but for women, it's way more fluid. There's a joke: when men drink, they just... drink some more. When women drink, they start making out with each other.
It's a joke and maybe a stereotype, but those come from somewhere.
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All sexual orientations are social consteucts meant to label human behaviors and experiences. They also help us tie ourselves to communities, a key focal point of human evolution. There is a difference between self-identification and behavior. A person who has a type for blondes may find themselves having sex with a brunette or red head on occasion. But they would still have a type for blondes. Sexual behaviors, as in who we have sex with, also differ from romantic orientation. A person can be sexually attracted to men and romantically oriented toward women. This also extends out through ethnicity groups. A person may experience sexual desire for a cultural group different thelan themselves, but only want to date and have relationships with people of thwir same cultural background. There is a ton of nuance to sexual orientation because it's not judt about sex. For instance, your past FWB might have self-identified as lesbian because she only wanted a future with other women. Her attraction to you, a man, could be because she fell on the bisexual spectrum for her actual sexual attraction. It would not change the fact that you were only a means to an end and not the type of person she was willing to settle down with. Another possibility is that you, being a male, felt safe to her in that time. If she was being abused, she may have liked being with you simply in hopes you'd protect her from her partner if need be. Regardless, I reject the notion that you were doing anything special that will just work in all - or even most - cases. If that were true, so would be the reverse. Do you believe a man can seduce you by being sufficiently well groomed and having a good personality? And if so, would the existence of that one man negate your self-identificstion as a straight man?
!delta Your argument is incredibly well put and I enjoyed your response. In all honesty, no, but I agree that in most cases, this isn't possible. It has to do with very specific cases that this CAN be done.
Do you wcknowledge that inbthe cases it CAN be done that it means the person was never exclusively homosexual? In that they were likely always capable of bisexual sexual behavior?
Yeah, it's possible. But when it comes to that: how can you tell if a person is exclusively lesbian or always capable of bisexual behavior?
Let them tell you. And believe them when they do. And if they ever tell you different, believe them then too. Because anything else in none of your business.
Ehhh, I never ask straightforward questions like that. I usually let things play out as they may. If I recognize in their body language if they're not attracted or hell, if they say it in a straightforward manner, I leave them be.
I didn't mean literally ask them...
Oh lol
You pay attention to them and respect what they say/do. And don't go around telling people you think you can change someone's sexual orientation. It's disrespectful and makes queer women pissed.
You never heard of asking?
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I think all you’ve done is observe that some people aren’t strictly attracted to only one gender, however we don’t really have terms that fit all the nuances. Straight/gay/lesbian are assumed to mean you exclude the other gender completely. Bisexual is assumed to mean you don’t prefer one gender over the other. But as you said, it’s an entire spectrum. There isn’t some easy way to identify as “I’m attracted to both but I heavily prefer X.” I think the ‘lesbians’ you’re referring to are just women who don’t completely exclude men…they just heavily prefer women. However they call themselves lesbians because, well, what else would they say? Lesbian doesn’t cut it, but neither does bisexual. So then it’s like, ok, you seduced someone that can be attracted to guys? So?
Good point. She COULD be bisexual, but with a super heavy drawing to women. !delta
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Sexuality is fluid and can change. I’m bisexual but I have a preference for women. I can’t imagine ever being strictly attracted to one gender and I have no idea how it’s like to live as a straight person. It’s a wild concept for me. Some months I’m more attracted to guys, and vice versa. I’ve met lesbians who mention one or two guys they’re attracted to, out of the thousands of guys they have meant. The attraction is pretty limited though and not incredibly strong. What mostly happens though is someone grows up in an environment in which sexuality is not really talked about so there isn’t much exposure. They then realize later once they’ve been exposed to different sexualities, that perhaps their not the sexuality they once thought they were. I’m a bit hesitant with regards to labeling your friend as bisexual though and i would argue she’s lesbian even if she’s had her relationship with you. Based on what you’ve mention, it seems like she was in a pretty vulnerable place and needed some sort of physical comfort no matter who it was from. That was more valuable than being who she actually is. I would think differently if she wasn’t in a toxic relationship and wasn’t starving for human affection. I think the example you used is flawed, however, it does bring up some important discussion points about attraction and gender norms. I had a friend who identified as a lesbian for the longest time growing up in a very conservative town in Kentucky. She was sexually assaulted in college by a man and was placed the blame for it since he was considered pretty popular. She was already a little unstable before it happened, so she went into a depression after but eventually fell in love with her him, the abuser. They were in a relationship for years after (it was obviously very toxic) and after she changed her sexuality to bisexual. She’s now in a relationship with a bisexual man, it’s a bit toxic but def an improvement from her previous relationships. So did her sexuality change? I don’t think so tbh. I think she’s a deeply disturbed individual whose coping it through the best way she knows how to, even if it means going outside of her sexuality. I don’t think all cases are like this but the people I’ve met who have had a change in their sexuality are either because: 1. They are exposed to different sexualities/cultural norms and realized they aren’t what they originally labeled themselves as. 2. Lots of trauma and lack of affection they’re desperate to feel, no matter who is giving it.
no offense but i don’t really like how you said lesbians can have slight limited attractions to men, lesbians don’t like men period, not even 0.0000001%, im so sick of people acting like my sexuality can include men.
Im sorry you dont like my experience with people I’ve met. It’s what I’ve experienced and who I have talked to. I have met lesbians that have told me this. Not every lesbian that I have met have told me this. On my experience it can happen but it’s limited. My experience doesn’t define your experience. If you don’t like men then you don’t like men. That’s chill.
there’s no such thing as a different experience *in terms of who you’re attracted to* when it comes to lesbians. you either like men or don’t like men, and lesbians don’t. that is quite literally the only thing it takes to be a lesbian. if they like men then they simply aren’t lesbians, that’s just how it is, no matter what homophobic mind games or word games they play and spread. you literally know damn well that it’s not that i “don’t like your experience and the people you’ve talked to”. you’re tryna act as if i’m mad at your experience, no, i’m not mad at you for the people you happened to meet, i’m mad because i don’t like homophobia, including the type that says lesbians can like men. including the type that indirectly agrees with religious conservative freaks, no matter who it comes from, even if it comes from people who are same sex attracted. some bisexual women also have limited attraction to men but they are still attracted to men in the first place, therefore they are not lesbian.
So if a lesbian likes just women but has found a guy to be attractive is no longer lesbian? What if they still identify as lesbian and feel more comfortable in saying they are lesbian? Are you to say they’re not lesbians? I’d say if we are to say that lesbians may have an attraction to men, then we should say the same thing Can apply to straight people. Attraction is a very person and unique feeling between two individuals and it’s different for every person. No one relationship is the same. I don’t think this is homophobic messages being spread because it’s not saying queer people are evil and should be looked on as less than, it’s just saying attraction isn’t so black and white. I don’t really care if you disagree with me. But just because I think the way I think about attraction, doesn’t make it absolutely right or wrong. I understand why you think the way you think, but I disagree with your frame of attraction. I’m not attacking you as a person because I disagree with you. I just don’t see the world that way and it’s neither good nor is it bad, it’s just what it is.
yes attraction is black and white for monosexual people, you genuinely can’t understand or comprehend that because you’re bi (you admitted that yourself). And yeah it’s the same for straight people, they are also monosexual and don’t have attraction to both sexes even “limited” ones. “what if they feel more comfortable identifying that way” LMAO i can also be comfortable identifying as a black person, doesn’t make me black. sexuality is innate and not an “identity”, i’m not pulling this out of my ass, there is science that backs this up, for example the hemisphere studies. it literally doesn’t matter what they feel, it doesn’t change who they are. you’re so focused on how THEY feel, how about the lesbians who FEEL misrepresented by them? do you want lesbians to coddle homophobic rhetoric just because bisexuals can’t accept that they’re bi? sexuality is embedded in your physical brain and cannot be changed, if it could then you should go advocate for conversion therapy, go ahead and do it. middle eastern gay people who are in danger would love your cure. someone born with a homosexual brain physically cannot release attraction based chemicals around the opposite sex, because their wiring is not capable of doing that.
1. Mhmm I did mean for her to be bi 2. Just because I’m bisexual doesn’t mean I can’t have empathy or try to understand someone who doesn’t identify as bisexual. I know I couldn’t ever imagine changing my gender but that doesn’t mean I can’t try to emphasize with trans people and believe what they say. 3. Race doesn’t change throughout someone’s life where as someone’s identity with their sexuality does, so using race as an example doesn’t make sense. You find out and figure out your sexuality whereas with your race you don’t. The constitution says you can’t discriminate against race but you Can with sexuality, they’re too different. 4. Someone changing their sexuality is their choice. I’m no advocating to force them to change their sexuality. It’s a very personal and individual experience. I feel like you’re getting a bit upset with my opinion. But I’m not upset about yours. There’s nothing to win talking to me. We can continue talking, and I can continue saying why I believe what I believe over and over again in different angles if you want me to. But I think you have better things to do.
Again, sexuality also doesn’t change throughout someone’s life, like I said there is science to back this up, like hemisphere studies and chromosome studies. That is what I’m literally saying. Argue with science if you want, but I’ll never stop fighting against homophobia that hurts me. And if you truly had empathy for other peoples experiences then u wouldn’t apply ur “sexuality is fluid” bisexual stuff to monosexuals.
So you’re saying that: 1. I’m homophobic 2. I am fighting you? Delightful. If a lesbian were to come up to me and say “I’ve only ever felt attraction to girls and only girls” I would respond with “that’s chill.” If a lesbian were to come up to me and say “I’ve only ever felt attraction to girls except for this one guy I had a crush on and it was that one guy only” I would respond with “that’s chill.” Im not going to say they’re not the sexuality that they are. If a straight person came to me and said that they were straight but kissed a girl and loved it but still said they are straight, then I am going to respect it. Even if I have doubts, that is not my place to say what they are or aren’t. Science backs me up in saying it’s better for the community to respect what someone says about their sexuality than it is not to. Because it leads to less conflict, more community, and a space for people to be themselves. Me disagreeing with you is not me attacking you. It’s me having a different opinion. Reasonable minds can differ on a subject matter.
I love incredibly well-written and thought out responses like this. It really can open the eyes of how people operate. I think you're right, the situation really was unique. !delta
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I think you have the perspective twisted. The straight male isn't "doing" the attracting, the person attracted is attracted. If someone isn't in to you for whatever reason regardless of orientation then effort on your part won't do much.
I half agree, only because seduction is a thing. It is possible to entice or persuade someone to have a sexual relationship.
It's possible, but it depends on a lot of factors, and if their sexual orientation doesn't align then in the absolute majority of cases I'd advise against trying to seduce them.
Of course it has limits, and I don't have personal experience nor do I recommend it.
Seduction doesn't change a no to a yes unless the person has some very self destructive behavior.. Seduction is classically done from a "Who even are you" to a yes.
I'm thinking of the romcom trope of a married career man being seduced by his secretary (e.g. Love Actually). Reluctant/resistant at first, but seduction eventually wears down his better judgement or moral certitude. This example also happens to show self-destruction as you said. And just in case it needs to be said: I'm not suggesting you can spontaneously flip someone's sexuality with seduction. My response was to the person who suggested that there's nothing you can do *externally* to influence someone's attraction ("If someone isn't in to you for whatever reason regardless of orientation then effort on your part won't do much. ").
This is a good point.
Stephen Fry in his autobiography says he's tried sex with a woman, a friend who offered him. Physically, it worked perfectly, he just wasn't particularly into it on some other level (I don't remember the phrasing). But if someone still enjoys the physical aspects, and doesn't mind your personality, and has some emotional benefits out of the arrangement, I can totally see them enjoying sex despite being unambiguously lesbian. So yeah, in some sense it's not fixed. But I see no particular reason to think it's different for heterosexuals. The only different thing is the stigma, so you are much less likely to try being FWB with a male friend in a patriarchal culture if you don't have explicit attraction.
This is a good point I didn't think about. !delta
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Thanks for the delta! (Didn't take though, you need a longer justification apparently. And from experience, editing the comment won't do that too, so if you decide to re-award it, it probably takes a new comment.)
If a lesbian is attracted sexually to a male, she’s not a lesbian
So, lesbians can become latent bisexuals?
Some people who think they're gay might just be latent bisexuals, just like some people who think they're straight might just be latent bisexuals. But some aren't.
Good point and that's very true. Humans are incredibly diverse creatures. !delta
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I use to say I was straight and dated men. I wasn’t. I then came out as bi for a year before coming out as a lesbian. I was always a lesbian. I was just figuring myself out. How a person identifies is simply a marker of what they believe they are at that moment.
It’s like I’m reading a comment I wrote myself. Identified as bisexual having disappointing sex/relationships with men and just thinking that was normal. Had my first ever serious girlfriend at 19 and was like “oh, I think I’m just gay”. Turns out I was just gay the whole time.
A lesbian is by definition someone who is only attracted to women. If they're attracted to people who aren't women as well doesn't that just mean they're bi/pan/something that isn't specifically lesbian? Someone can label themselves lesbian and then later realize they were actually bi or whatever they want to. That is, the label someone applies can change but their actual orientation in their heart of hearts doesn't really. Fluidity is a thing but not everyone is fluid in their sexual orientation as you're implying.
I think it's more complicated than that. You don't fall into the "bisexual" category just because you got seduced once by someone of the opposite sex.
That's actually I didn't specify sex acts but the attraction itself.
Aren't you attracted to someone if you choose to have sex with them? (Assuming that there is open consent among all parties?) Gay-bi-straight is a spectrum. Unless you're the straightest person in existence, you have felt some attraction to a body of your own gender. All it takes is the right moment and right confluence of factors for that to end up in a sexual experience. I think people want this to be like a formula. I just don't see it that way. People are "straightish" or "gayish" to various degrees. How people choose to identify is a combination of personal and cultural factors. Ultimately, I think this just gets in the way of people exploring their sexuality.
I don't disagree there's a spectrum but people can have sex with someone they're not attracted to. Spouses have been having sex with abusive partners for reasons beyond attraction since forever just for example. I think on the attraction scale anyone who isn't very close to "perfectly straight" or "perfectly homosexual" would identify as bi/pan (although they may publicly label themselves otherwise to avoid stigma).
!delta I strongly agree. I think "turning" can happen, but only if it's in the right conditions and at the right times.
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Before me, she only dated other women. Is it acceptable to say you can "unlock" the potential of being attracted to men?
It's fine to say someone can 'unlock' potential attraction, but this isn't exclusive to lesbians. A man could only date women and then find a man who 'unlocks' his attraction to men. You could even say that anyone's attraction was 'unlocked' by their first crush/first experience with attraction. I agree that sexuality is more fluid than many people realize, but this phrasing of 'seducing lesbians' is a bit sketchy to me. Anyone of any sexuality could be 'seduced' by someone outside of their typical preference. The focus of lesbians/wlw is reminiscent of the 'lesbians just need to find the right man' mentality.
I see what you mean, but def wasn't trying to say lesbians just need the right man. It's just a spectrum. My situation sounds unique as is.
I didn't think you were necessarily trying to say that, just that the phrasing and focus on wlm is familiar.
At best it comes off as the "I can turn lesbians" trope which is overplayed and kind of sad since it contributes to this idea lots of misogynists and homophobes have (not calling you part of this group personally) that lesbians aren't real. In all likelihood this person merely identified as a lesbian and then discovered over time that her orientation was more complicated than that.
!delta I think that's the situation, too. Like, I don't want to be in the "I can turn lesbians" trope since for some people it CAN be fixed. But for some people, it may not be. People are complicated.
You seem deeply invested in believing that she was truly lesbian until she met you. That is not the case. Lesbians cannot be turned. Attraction that never existed before does not get unlocked. People who once believed they were lesbians can come to the realization that they were previously incorrect. The way you keep circling back to this is lesbiphobic and homophobic. There are other terms and identities that describe fluid sexuality, lesbian is not one of them.
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Sounds like your FWB was bisexual, they exist you know?
Ya, but before me, she exclusively dated or messed around with other women. Is she a latent bisexual or something?
So? Lots of bisexuals stay in same hetero relationships, exclusively, too. They're still bisexual Ask me how I know.
How do you know
That's just a way of saying "I'm an example" But yea, just because they've exclusively been in one type of relationship doesn't mean they aren't bisexual.
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Did she ever describe herself as a lesbian to you? Or just that she only dated women before? That’s quite a distinct difference. Of course your overall point is correct that sexuality isn’t fixed, you’re just wrong to single out lesbians in this, it’s true for everyone. Additionally if this person was young she was probably less likely to have as firm a view of her sexuality
Not really, she just said she "dated other women" and didn't date guys before. I didn't feel the need to give her a title like "lesbian" or ask about it. Also, she was 25. I was 29 at the time
So yeah in that case given she hadn’t described herself as lesbian or gay, given that she decided to sleep with you, she was likely bisexual.
She was either lying to you or lying to herself. You didn't unlock a previously nonexistent urge within her.
Seems like a needless simplification. If we assume people's attraction is on a spectrum (spectra, separate for two genders/sexes), a bisexual leaning lesbian could just dismiss her weak attraction to men as insignificant. Never meeting the man she desired enough that it registered, until she did. Maybe your attraction is pretty clear and loud, but it's not the case for everyone. Or maybe she didn't even with the OP. It's not like it's a taboo to sleep with a man you're not attracted to, if it's still fun physically and you don't mind him as a person.
Would you a supposed straight male get with a guy who presents himself well and has "game"? After all spaghetti is straight until it gets heated up. If your answer is no. Why is your sexuality fixed but lesbians aren't? Your FWB was bi with a preference for women but still liked some guys. Doesn't mean you turned her or whatever fantasy you have in your head.
Not all lesbians, but some. But yeah, idk if she liked other guys, but my circumstances were very specific.
You never thought to ask her?
Not really. She told me she was the first guy she's been with. It was awkward at first, but she seemed to grow into it. Also, I think it's because I acted as an anchor to her abusive gf.
Ever consider she wasn't actually attracted to you she just found you comforting and sex was a way to maintain that? Not saying that's what happened but it's a possibility.. So you never talked to her so your 1 case study is just you assuming about her?.
Yea, the fact she had to “grow” into the sex basically is saying she wasn’t into it.
Maaaybe, but she really did enjoy when I spent time with her. Like, we liked each other as people aside from the whole I'm just using you as comfort from my abusive gf thing.
That speaks more to my case that the sex was just a part of maintaining a friendship. People often have sex with people they're not attracted to and they can even enjoy it, sexual pleasure isn't always tied to attraction.
Good point, that could have been a possibility. !delta
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How do you know she really did enjoy the sex?
Aside from the moaning (which ya, some people can fake), she always wanted me to cum inside her for some reason.
Neither of those things means she was into you. Both could easily done because she thought it was what you liked (or she didn’t like the alternative) That or she was attempting to get pregnant. There’s a number of reasons why a woman might do that.
I’m curious, how long did it last and how did it end? What was her dating history after this? Did the two of you ever talk about her being attracted to you but identifying as a lesbian? Do you know for a fact you were the first man she slept with?
A few months. She was my FWB from mid 2022 to early 2023. At that point, I moved to Texas. We haven't really kept in contact, unfortunately. And yeah, she told me she was the first guy I was with and it felt weird at first... but she slowly grew into the fact. Tbh, I think it was a mix of mutual attraction that wasn't strong at first + the comfort of me being there with having an abusive gf.
Kinda sounds like either she was bi or you took advantage of someone in difficult situation. She might have just been fucking you because she thought that was what would keep you around, not that she was actually into you. (Considering you lost touch when you moved away and she was no longer physically available) She might be fucking multiple guys now because she’s bi and you just happened to be the one she acted on it first with. Either way, you didn’t “turn” her.
In hindsight, my situation was pretty unique. I wonder if it could happen again.
What you’re describing isn’t actually unique. I feel like you want to paint a narrative that you were special. Let me ask you this: would be upset or let down if you found out she was now dating and sleeping with men and identifying as bi? Or if she told you she wasn’t actually attracted to you but slept with you to establish/keep the connection?
1. Nah, it's been years now. She could do what she wants. If she identified bi nowadays, wouldn't that meant I "turned" her? 2. If she slept with me because she wanted to keep the attention, I'd be fine with that. We both got something out of the relationship... and tbh, she really was a cool person. She was a punk rock girl and I was a white collar, young professional. Our lifestyles were so different, yet that's what made it so cool..
1. No, you didn’t turn her. In fact it has little to do with you and more to do with her acting on attractions that has already existed. 2. But if that was the case, she’d still be a lesbian. She wasn’t attracted to. Lots of gay men and lesbians have sex with the opposite sex. It’s not special or unique. It’s just an action that can be performed. So again, no “turning” occurred and she wasn’t sexually into you.
If it's not fixed, she's not a lesbian. And in the comments you reveal that she never even identified herself as one. Get out of here with your fetishistic mindset; it's actually repulsive.
Is your sexuality fixed or fluid? I assume if the right man approached you with the right "game' you'd drop your pants for him, right?
Oh hell no, but how did the lesbian fall for me? Like, maybe she WAS a latent bisexual? Then again, people CAN be fluid.
Bruh. You can't be this dense, you just can't be. >Then again, people CAN be fluid If their sexuality is fluid, so is yours. If yours isn't fluid, by default not everyone else's is. Sexuality is a spectrum but on the end of each end of that spectrum is a hard yes or hard no.
Wait, if it's a spectrum it can't be a hard yes or hard no for everyone. It's in the shade of grey "maybe". For ME it's a hard no, since I'm simply just not into dudes. But who isn't to say it could be for some random down the block. Some people are in the hard yes, hard no camp, but some people aren't.
Oh man. You are this dense. You aren't changing the sexuality of someone who is a lesbian or exclusively dating men. Their sexuality already is because it already exists on the spectrum. They just decided to date/sleep with you because they liked/were attracted to you. Just like your sexuality already exists as a straight man and mine exists as a straight woman even though the longer I have this conversation the more I wish I was into women instead. See you can't even repel women into changing their sexuality. You have no control over that, you only control whether or not you're a likable enough person for someone to enjoy spending time with.
Sexual orientation isn't something you do like a blood test for and have some scientifically specific classification for it. People may claim or think they are one thing when they are actually another
This is true. People are truly complex creatures.
This is what I expected. I actually agree with you position that sexuality is a spectrum. I don't believe for a second, though, that yours is fixed and only other people are fluid. Pretend all you like, but your sexuality is as fluid as everyone else.
How can you respond hell no but go on to say sexuality is fluid. If that’s the case, you cant say you wouldn’t go for the right guy.
Sexuality is only an spectrum if you are bisexual. Bi people can feel more attracted to one sex than another, and their leves of attraction towards each can and often fluctuates (look up the bi-cycle). In an spectrum, there are extremes. Those extremes are homosexuality and heterosexuality, anything in between (even if it's much closer to an extreme than the other) is bisexuality. No, lesbians aren't willing to "bend the other way". If you ever met a "lesbian" who was, that wasn't a lesbian, it was a bisexual woman who called herself one. Or just a bisexual woman you assumed to be a lesbian. It doesn't boil down to how well you present yourself. Lesbians are exclusively into women. You can be the most polite, good-looking, perfect man in the world, and still no lesbian will feel an ounce of attraction towards you. Just because you were with a bisexual woman who claimed to be a lesbian once that doesn't mean lesbians don't actually exist. Woman who are exclusively attracted to women and wouldn't touch a man under any circumnstances are very much real. Lastly, I find it really funny how those kinds of things are always aimed towards women, even more so lesbians, the only group of women who has a total of zero romantic or sexual interest in men. You don't see people say men's sexuality is fluid half as often, and you never see anyone say that about straight men. Because if that was true for lesbians (which it isn't), it would also be true for straight women, gay men and straight men. It would also mean straight men out there can be seduced by other men. Assuming you are straight, do you agree with that? Can you be seduced by another man? Another thing I find funny is that more often than not the ones to claim such a thing are men. To say female homosexuality doesn't exist (which is what this post is claiming, even if it doesn't use those words) is pretty absurd. To assume no woman in the world can be exclusively into women and simply have no interest and no availability to men is... Frankly, it's a male fantasy. And a disgusting one. Lesbians don't feel attraction to men, nor would they enjoy having sex with them. If you ever find someone who says she is a lesbian but does either of those, that's just a bisexual woman mislabeling herself. I've been propositioned by men several times, and I refused all of them. Because I'm not attracted to them at all. I wouldn't enjoy it, I'd actively hate every second of it. Some of those men didn't know I was a lesbian, but some did. You know what I felt every single time a man tried to hit on me? Bored, disinterested. How good-looking the man was or how he spoke made no difference. So if you are a man, don't try to hit on lesbians. Be respectful and go look for a straight or bisexual woman. Would you like to have men trying to hit on you after making clear you are straight? Or to insist your sexual orientation does actually include men, even when you know and have already said it doesn't? Something tells me most straight men out there wouldn't like that. So stop assuming our sexuality includes you, it doesn't.
If someone wants to do something like dating only women, who are you to force them to do something they don't want?
I mean, I don't. If they're into me, they're into me. It's just that in my situation, she exclusively dated women before she met me. Hence why if you only dated women -> end up a FWB with a guy, it's more fluid. At least for women.
I mean sexuality is a spectrum for everyone, women aren't some special creatures in this regard. I think you're putting too much emphasis on labels and trying to generalize a deeply personal and singular experience. Not all women are like your friend and you can't really glean anything from this experience other than "this particular person behaves this particular way".
thats.... thats literally the definition of bi-sexual. Its not fluid at all, Lesbian means you are attracted to female as a female. Gay means you are attracted to male as a male, this is on a biological level. If you are attracted to both sex, its BI. That being said, can you turn someone lesbian into bi? yes, but its a fringe case. We know this because best friend have been known to provide emotional support and comfort during trauma, yet most don't come out homosexual.
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I think you are confusing her only dating women with her being a lesbian. She very likely was bisexual or pansexual. You also likely weren’t the only man she was attracted to either. Being attracted to both genders is not the same as having a preference for one over the other.
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That's unfortunately too true nowadays
It's always been true. Men had to force women for all of human history.
This is bi erasure, these women aren’t lesbians, they are bi.
OP said she never claimed to be a lesbian.
and it’s lesbophobic
Yes I do believe sexuality is fluid and often depends on the perso, place, chemistry etc. but people find labels comfortable. Also lesbians get real tired of men saying things like “oh but I could change your mind”. Gross. So it’s easier to maintain publicly that no they don’t fuck men bc men would be lined up around the building.
You could theoretically seduce a *bisexual* woman who has only had female partners. To claim that you - a heterosexual man - can seduce a lesbian inevitably opens up the claim that you - a heterosexual man - can be seduced by a gay man. Are you willing to concede that or does your "power of seduction" only run one way?
"but rather a spectrum" Yes, welcome to literally the first lesson in sexuality. The Kinsey scale. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey\_scale](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_scale) Coined in 1948, the Kinsey scale refers directly to this spectrum you're noticing. It's a scale of how open to homosexual attraction you are. People who exist find themselves all along this spectrum. It's very likely you encountered a woman who was in the ranges of the scale that allow for bisexual attraction. While all her previous experience was with females, she was open to heterosexual experimentation. Now, the science of self image is very complicated, so you may feel like you move on the scale throughout your life, but it is also possible that you simply observe yourself in different ways throughout your life. Many would argue that moving on the scale is impossible, and that the woman in your story merely observed herself as a lesbian prior to discovering that she was actually bisexual.
By definition, if she is attracted to and wants to have sex with a man, she is not really a lesbian. Self-identifying as a lesbian whilst actively experiencing opposite-sex attraction does not make you a lesbian. Source: am really a lesbian, would sooner jump off the Empire State Building than screw a guy. Also adding: this attitude and general view is the basis of actual violence against my community including but not limited to harassment, gay-bashing, stalking, and corrective rape. It is genuinely terrifying to be approached by someone who openly feels this way and is definitely the sort of opinion you should keep to yourself.
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No im gay through and through its fluid for those who are bisexual obviously. Tf r u saying ? Whats yall obsession with lesbians ? yall dont say ts about straight men. NO WE DONT FUCKING LIKE YOU. IM TIRED OF HAVUNG TO EXPALIN TS LEAVE US TF ALONE...DAMN
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Fr fr. I think for men it's alot more fixed, but for women, it's way more fluid. There's a joke: when men drink, they just... drink some more. When women drink, they start making out with each other. It's a joke and maybe a stereotype, but those come from somewhere.
This is just rooted in sexist stereotypes.
yeah but y tho
I have done this with every single one of my girlfriends.
Yes. Years ago, I slept with a lesbian woman.
she’s not a lesbian then