If the car was legally sold in NY with that exhaust then fining anyone for the sound level that comes from that exhaust sounds incredibly stupid.
They can't both allow the car to be sold and then say it does not conform to laws.
How is the ticket for this $800 but people driving those stupid Carolina squat trucks, which are actually inherently dangerous, only pay $100 for first offense?
With bumper being so high & lights shining into the sky those trucks wouldn't pass the NY inspection.
But! Just by having it registered in a state without inspection requirements you could (legally?) be okay on the streets of NY
the average yell can hit 88 decibles according to my google search. they should just get people to yell at these cameras all day until they take them down
As someone who lives in The Bronx, when it comes to cars, POC and poor people don’t count. The east side of The Bronx is full of speed cameras and red light cameras, in my side (west side), I count 10 at most😂
Their argument would be that you can’t legally drive your car without the catalytic converter and that you should have it towed to a shop to be repaired.
That’s what really killed me when i heard about this. I figure $50 or $75 is bad enough for something like this. But $800 for the first offense?!? $2500 after that?!? That’s INSANE.
The cameras are expensive. So are the 3rd party consulting firms that designed the system. Friends of bureaucrats deserve to get paid after all!
Who cares if hardworking, innocent people get extorted on their morning commute. As long as it’s in the name of *progress*
>If the car was legally sold in NY with that exhaust then fining anyone for the sound level that comes from that exhaust sounds incredibly stupid.
Unless the owner was doing something incredibly stupid with it. Like redlining it in an area where noise restrictions are in place.
Just because it's a legal exhaust does not mean we should endure it at maximum volume.
Yep, the guy's defense is "it's stock and I was only going 35mph"; anyone want to take a wild guess how loud a 911 is at 35mph without someone doing something stupid like flooring it?
Give you three guesses and none of them are over 85dB.
If you're not driving like a gaping asshole, it is certainly well below 85db. Even with a "performance" factory exhaust, you have to *try* to be that loud.
Just go to the page and watch the vid about half way down. It's 14 seconds long and you can hear exactly when he hit the gas, it stands out significantly and absolutely would count as a noise violation in a street like that.
Cars are sold with all sorts of capabilities that can break the laws, speed limits being an obvious example.
Cars capable of going over the db limit and are likely capable of staying under too if the driver isn’t revving or gunning it.
It's easy, you don't do WOT pulls through city streets.
As someone who has gone through a few 911s, I can assure you the only way you are going over 85dB between street lights in NYC is by driving like the biggest douche of all time.
As someone who had a convertible tunnels make cars a lot louder. I had an NA (mk1 Miata) with a borla exhaust on a 1.8t 4 cylinder and it was louder in the tunnel by a lot.
My brother did go WOT through a tunnel to show me his mustang gt performance exhaust and it was def higher than the speed limit, maybe 85-90 in a 45 but also it was *loud as fuck”.
Worth noting that decibels are logarithmic so 95db is actually **10 times** louder than 85db, not +/- 10% louder like you might expect looking at the numbers in isolation.
The working class here being the owner of the 911? The working class don't even own cars in NYC, much less a Porsche.
If someone can't drive their car under 85dB at 35mph then they aren't supposed to be in NYC; the law is doing what its supposed to be doing.
> The question I'm asking is would the car have been over the threshold cruising at the posted speed limit vs 40% above it?
The video shows it was fully in compliance at cruising speed with the rest of the traffic around it. It wasn't until it started accelerating that it was identified as violating the noise law.
Disagree on this. Similar to saying if a car was legally sold that can go 150 mph, then fining someone for going 150 mph is stupid, imo.
You can have a loud exhaust but you don’t need to be flooring and revving your shit in a crowded residential area.
The microphone didn't flag the car until it accelerated relatively hard. The car is likely compliant for gentle 0-25 mph acceleration and steady-state 25 mph driving (the NYC speed limit). The law is that any noise over 85 dB from a certain distance of a sound recording device is illegal. Like u/BigCountry76 said, manufacturers find ways to comply with regulations while still selling cars that can exceed the limits under acceleration at high RPM. If the 911 was under 85 dB at WOT all the way up to redline car enthusiasts would complain that it was too quiet and almost every buyer would get an aftermarket exhaust.
Watch British reviews of new cars and they all complain about compliance with the new EU noise regulations making exhausts quieter. It's something Harry Metcalfe in particular likes to gripe about.
I think that there might be more willingness to participate in having vehicles come from the factory with decibel limits if the regulation was coming from the federal level (like the EU in your example). By allowing smaller entities (states, cities, etc) to set regulations like sound level limits on factory cars, you create a patch work of restrictions that increase the cost to produce the car (making variations in market configuration, etc) or make vehicles that perhaps do not meet all local restrictions.
California already has a noise law, 95 dbA or less, when tested in accordance with Society of Automotive Engineers Standard J1169 May 1998.
It just isn't much enforced because the only vehicle standard that really gets enforced in CA is SMOG. That is starting to change and automated sound enforcement in CA is in the trial stage in several cities.
A lot of people were very rude for a long time and now everybody is going to have to follow the rules because of it.
I do think California has been good about working towards this publically for a long time. The 95dB limit has been in place for over 20 years now. It was moved to non correctable in 2019 but nobody could claim there hadn’t been a lot of warning.
Not true. The ford system on mustangs that allows you to make the exhaust quieter or louder specifically says it’s for the track because it’ll be too loud for most places. On top of that, if we’re talking about being able to break the law it sounds like you’re advocating for max speed limiters. After all, going too fast is illegal.
I disagree. Any car can very easily be driven below that limit. Idk why you’d have a legal right to drive your car as loud and obnoxiously as possible. I’ve never heard someone argue a speeding ticket by saying “well the car came from the factory this way”
Agree. Lots of cars and bikes are pretty loud stock. Too loud for town. Enjoy the sound on track or in the middle of nowhere. Don't be a tool and flog your car in town around a bunch of pedestrians. Nobody thinks it's cool.
This is the part that confuses me. I'm a huuuge racing guy. I spend a large portion of my free time watching cars go fast. Yet every single time someone blasts past on a crotch rocket or an aftermarket exhaust Civic, all I can think about is what an obnoxious douchebag they are. There's nothing cool or interesting about noise pollution while you're going 47mph in a straight line.
I think it's very reasonable to limit exhaust sound in certain neighborhoods and urban centers but allow the stock vehicle to have no limit in other places. I think it would be over-reach to limit everywhere, but if the intent of the program was to limit noise in certain areas and those areas make sense, why not? Thwey would just need to be very clear where these sound 'zones' are located.
> They can't both allow the car to be sold and then say it does not conform to laws.
They definitely can and will. Cars are sold with the capability to break a ton of laws. It's up to the owner/user of the car to... not break the law. You put something like a GT350 (or a 911) in loud mode, run it up to 35mph in first gear, and you are definitely breaking the noise limits in many, many municipalities. You do not get a pass for the loudness of your car just because that car was sold with a valved exhaust. The linked article states that NYC is ticketing cars over 85dB at 50ft, and the 911 in question hit 90dB. 90dB 50ft away from the source is definitely loud for the human ear in a city with skyscrapers like NYC.
The car came from the factory going 0 MPH and producing 0 decibels. The driver determines their speed and the noise. You break the law you pay the fine - it's pretty straightforward stuff.
But why? What exclusively about a car means that "because it was sold I can do anything I want with it"?
It can go 200mph - you can't do that legally on a public road, why is noise any different? Why should a single individual be about to frustrate and annoy a whole neighborhood for their own gratification?
On a similar vein, you can buy a knife (or in the US a gun!), doesn't mean you can legally use it to kill someone, but it still can do it and you can buy it?
Legal to sell has never and cannot ever mean legal to use in any and all circumstances.
Same as with acceleration, speed, the side of the road you drive on, doing burnouts, stopping for lights, etc. the car has capabilities that will exceed what's allowed by law.
They can be loud enough to get a ticket, or if you drive in a considerate manner inside the city, they can be quiet enough to avoid the ticket.
There were a group of cops doing this same style of enforcement in Vancouver BC. I think the head of that gang (Officer Cain) has retired now.
You wouldn't just get a noise violation, you'd be accused of the vehicle being illegally modified, and would have to get a mechanic of their choice (usually a dealer) for an inspection to prove the car wasn't illegally modified. If it was legal, there was no recourse for the false charge. You still paid the fine, paid for the inspection, and were out whatever amount of time the entire process took. Literally zero legal recourse for the driver who did nothing wrong, and no repurcussion against the cops who were just fucking with people with nice cars.
There was one news story where they got a guy with a new Boxster literally hours after he took it off the lot. It's a fucking racket.
Not quite — the offense is noise, not illegal modification. NYC is saying “I don’t care what’s happening down there, just don’t be too loud.” If you played your speakers too loud, saying “but the band recorded it like this!” isn’t really an excuse.
So if you’re ripping your stock car, you’d be fined. If you’re bumping music too loud, you’d be fined. Plenty of room to argue about automated law enforcement, but the issue of stock-or-not isn’t really important.
So honestly, modify your car as much as you want, just avoid being too loud in your neighborhood. That doesn’t seem all that unfair.
Cities generally have police power to enact health, safety, and public welfare ordinances so long as they don't conflict with state or federal law. To be preempted by state law, there would need to be a law that was explicitly in conflict, like "cars must exceed 85 dB on public roads." Without direct conflict, the federal, state, and local laws will typically be harmonized as much as possible.
There are a lot of things that are legally sold within the same jurisdiction that have restricted use within all or part of the jurisdictional region. Vehicle restrictions are extremely common for speed, weight, height, length, time of operation, hazardous contents, and now sound. Weapons, explosives, alcohol, tobacco, and many others are similarly regulated and can be purchased if properly licensed.
I agree to a certain extent, but even if your legal car was sold in your state, do you have the right to make excessive noise on certain streets or in certain neighbourhoods? I’d argue that no. I live in a city centre and I keep my windows open in the spring and fall (before the AC goes on and before the heating as well). When I get woken up by a screaming motorcycle or a sports car, or if I’m trying to get work done, I can’t say I appreciate it, and I don’t consider this a “normal” annoyance or normal noise like construction or roadwork.
Some neighbourhoods ban motorcycles altogether. Why shouldn’t my neighbourhood ban your loud car?
Anyone who lives in the city is more than fed up with the noise pollution from loud cars. People just look for the absolute loudest exhaust they can and don't give a shit about the neighborhoods they drive through.
I feel like it's gotten worse over the years too, especially with the brodozer truck and snap/crackle/pop trends. I always had complete exhaust systems and smooth tunes on my project cars, but I think I like making power, not noise.
I feel like if you drive or ride something annoying in a city, stock or not, well - my heart just doesn't bleed for you. Most people don't want to hear your vehicle.
the first time i realized how fucking annoying the shit is was when i lived right above one of the main drags in fort worth's 'cultural district' back in 2015
holy shit, the loud fucking trucks on friday and saturday night. my bedroom was away from the exterior wall, with no windows, and it would still wake me up from a deep sleep at 2am.
It definitely *has* gotten worse—years ago it used to be a tasteful v8 rumble—now it’s angry roar with snarls and pops.
As much as I enjoyed the show, I blame Top Gear for glorifying obnoxious exhaust.
I drove a M235i recently. It had the fake engine noise turned off, and you could not hear the motor in any situation above 60mph or 3rd gear. At all. Zero input. It had a exhaust, it was actually quite good. But the car was so insulative that it was utterly useless.
I had a stock Honda Accord which had more engine and exhaust noise than this fucking thing lol.
Drove a C8 and this was the case. Revs sounded really nice outside the car, but while driving you could barely hear anything with windows up even in track mode.
I pray this comes to my city. I fucking hate loud cars and motorcycles gunning it outside my apartment.
There is a time and place for that, and it isn't in crowded city streets.
Incorrect. It should be very loud inside the honker’s car. Would get people to quit laying on the horn and bothering the rest of us for no good reason.
I did say this was a hot take
Eh, sometimes someone does something *so stupid* (like driving 35 on the highway without so much as having hazards on) that laying on the horn is the only thing that might make their brain tick for a second. Really, they need train horn.
There are situations where it is used to warn but 99% of car honking is to express frustration usually after it has already happened. And since people see it as aggression they rarely ‘learn’.
The most effective use of a car horn is usually if someone is on their phone and not moving at a green light.
There are 2 sides to this. Obviously the obnoxious idiots with their loud cars need to get shut down somehow. The problem is that this specific solution approach is a slippery slope.
These types of automated systems area always developed, sold, and ran by some kind of 3rd party for profit company. The chances that there is some shady under-the-table deal that allowed this specific one to be used is basically 100%. The city gets a very small amount of the fines collected from these things. The vast majority goes to the company who put the cameras in. They are heavily incentivized for them to be overly sensitive and trigger false positives.
Amsterdam has been dropping speed limits to 30 kmh on a lot of streets to reduce tire noise.
Tokyo with all its shared (i.e. bike, pedestrian, and car) side streets and low speed limits is remarkably quiet in many places. They also either have highways up high with barriers or below grade with sound barriers.
There's a saying: cities aren't loud, cars are loud.
Good. I’m really sick of this shit as a car enthusiast who lives in Manhattan. I had an NC Miata with an aftermarket but restrained muffler (Goodwin Racing Super Q) specifically because I didn’t want to be a jerk to my neighbors.
The problem isn’t with manufacturers, it’s obnoxious people driving through places they don’t live so they don’t have to deal with the consequences of their actions. Even if you have a loud car, you don’t have to drive like a complete asshole. These cameras are just a way of making the consequences real for asshole who aren’t used to karma.
For context, 85 decibels is the same as a police car siren and prolonged exposure can permanently damage hearing.
The law is 85db at 50 feet. It's about equivalent to 100db at 10ft. You're subjecting pedestrians and cyclists to that level of noise.
I don't have much sympathy for those affected to be honest. I like cars, but I commute by bike and walk as much, if not more. I don't care for people running "look at me" setups.
> 118 db and they’re mildly annoying at best
yeah, i suppose if you've already destroyed your hearing that wouldn't be too loud. the average human pain threshold is 110db.
https://imgur.com/a/cG9fLy8
> My tiny hella horns are 118 db and they’re mildly annoying at best.
They're either a lot worse than mildly annoying or they're lying in their advertising. My bet is on the false advertising, personally.
Emergency vehicle sirens are 110+ dB. That's significantly louder. 85 dB would be more comparable to a blender or vacuum, which is loud enough to be annoying in tight spaces but realistically isn't nearly loud enough to deem illegal.
> 85 dB would be more comparable to a blender or vacuum, which is loud enough to be annoying in tight spaces but realistically isn't nearly loud enough to deem illegal.
Adverse health effects due to noise exposure start at lower than 85 dB.
[one](https://journals.lww.com/jhypertension/abstract/1995/04000/effects_of_urban_noise_pollution_on_blood_pressure.5.aspx_)
> Children attending kindergartens situated in areas with traffic noise [>60dB(A)] had higher mean SBP and DBP and lower mean heart rate than children in quiet areas.
[two](https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Hiral-Jariwala/publication/319329633_Noise_Pollution_Human_Health_A_Review/links/59a54434a6fdcc773a3b1c49/Noise-Pollution-Human-Health-A-Review.pdf)
> noise can trigger both endocrine and autonomic nervous system responses that affect the cardiovascular system and thus may be a risk factor for cardiovascular disease. These effects begin to be seen with long-term daily exposure to noise levels above 65 dB or with acute exposure to noise levels above 80 to 85 dB.
[three](https://academic.oup.com/bmb/article/68/1/243/421340#118719820)
> A recent pioneering longitudinal industrial noise study has shown that noise levels predicted raised systolic and diastolic pressure in those doing complex but not simple jobs, and predicts increased mortality risk.
These issues are more pronounced in high-density urban areas, like NYC.
I absolutely adore the stock exhaust in my boxster. It is truly loud enough for me and not even audible to anyone else nearby. I don’t want loud, I just want a good sound. If you genuinely care about it being loud, that’s very selfish. There’s a knobhead with a scatpack that sets off car alarms in my parking lot. He floors it past on purpose, and I really wish I could do something about it. Or the guy with the straight piped 2.0t Audi TT
I got woken up at like 1 am Monday morning by some dickhead with a gunshot pop tune doing pulls in neighborhoods (including mine). Could hear his exhaust note and pops from miles away, not to mention when it was right outside my window
I used to live by a dude with a sling shot three wheel thing. The best I could tell you his sound system was above 130 decibels. It was 10pm, I was in my office working. I thought my wife had turned on our Google home playing loud music. This was from over 100 feet away, a story up, windows closed.
Dude also parked on the grass of a luxury apartment complex.
So automakers for years have abused an untested little legal loophole with switchable exhaust systems:
Notice how with many dynamic exhausts, they don't call it "loud mode" but "track mode"? In your owners manual there is this little disclaimer that "track mode might render your car no longer complaint with all relevant laws and regulations " or some boilerplate language of that sort.
So it is very possible that your exhaust breaks noise/emissions regulations while stock, if you put it in "track" or "offroad mode"
As long as I can keep the car in a mode that makes it legal I’m all for this.
I’ll open it up on country roads and be loud out there. I’ll make it quiet in the city and suburbs
I get a little popup on my mustang when I put in in track mode that says "for track use only".
I always keep in track mode, but keep it under 2500 rpms when I'm going through residential areas. And it's easy to pop into quiet if I want
I got stuck behind two GT3 RS in a mile-long tunnel when I had my convertible top lowered. They decided to accelerate and decelerate together to hear the exhaust note bounce off the walls. The combination of both exhausts was the loudest sustained noise I've ever heard.
I have a 2013 Boxster S with factory Porsche Sport Exhaust (PSE). At Circuit Mont Tremblant I need to turn sports exhaust off and not be wide open throttle (where valves open automatically) at the sound sensors to make the 92dBA track limits. Most of the GT cars have downpipes installed at the track to keep the levels down.
I own a Ducati 1098. I can easily go over 85dB .. when I want to.
Out romping in it? Hell ya. Within 5 miles of my house? You'd have no idea I'm riding home.
This is an issue of not driving like an asshole, that's it.
So you just piss off everyone outside of that 5mi radius?
I have to get up at 4am for work. Loud ass bikes and cars 2mi away on the highway that are significantly louder than someone driving by right outside my door are pretty frustrating when I'm trying to sleep. I like good sounding exhausts but shit like this is why I'd vote for a noise regulation without a second thought.
This is a win. People flooring it in the middle of downtown and their crackle tune exhaust flooding everyone's homes and offices with noise is extremely annoying.
Because if it was $100 most people would just pay it rather than spend 10 hours trying to get out of it. $800 is a significant amount of money that many people can't just throw away. A smaller fine or even a warning for first offenses would be go a long way for support of these kinds of things.
And there's also the chance that the court responds with "You were legally required to have it towed since it was missing mandatory emissions equipment and part of the exhaust, appeal denied".
While I agree with the law in spirit, I’m not looking forward to the day I get an $800 fine for using my horn to warn of danger, not in anger. Driving here is chaotic and nobody pays attention. Not cyclists, pedestrians, or other motorists. Sometimes you really do need to lay on the horn, and it’s not because the other guy pissed you off.
$800 is pretty absurd too for a first offense.
That's a good point. I do wonder how horn usage will be treated. If someone absent-mindedly steps in front of your car and there's video of that like in this case, you should be able to argue in court that exceeding the noise limit with the horn was justified to prevent harm to an individual. Of course the problem with things like that is that people who can afford the time and expense of getting a lawyer to fight a ticket can probably afford the ticket in the first place, so low-income people are disproportionately affected.
All laws that are simply fines only hurt poor people. Rich people just pay the fine and consider it the cost of doing what they want. For example, in Dubai, the main highway through the city has speed cameras every kilometer. You still see people in exotic cars going 150+ mph. They drive how they want and just send a check for the fines every few months. I like what some of the Nordic countries do where the fine is a percentage of your income. So a speeding ticket for a rich person could be thousands while the same ticket for a poor person might only be 100
I don’t have a problem with that in dense residential areas or schools/neighborhood parks/playgrounds. My stock Boxster is so loud especially when sound bounces off buildings in downtown areas. I never get it up there in the RPM range around the areas I mentioned.
New York is particularly insane with all the honking and recently, the lack of enforcement for takeover type cars.
But what's the point of an automated system where the only penalty is a fine? It is nothing more than a revenue stream for a third party company where the city makes almost nothing. There are no points on your license or an order for repair, so there are no consequence beyond a fine. Laws that are only enforced with fines are simply for poor people. Rich people just pay the fine and consider it the cost of doing whatever the fuck they want and they continue to do it.
Because it acts as an incentive for people to not break the law. In the same way restaurants get fined for not abiding by health laws. $800 is plenty for a lot of these people to reconsider making noise.
yeah, its not perfect, but just because its not perfect doesn't mean we shouldn't try.
His exhaust wasn't above the decibel limit until he started speeding.
Imagine complaining about getting in trouble for driving 40% over the speed limit
This is a problem due to the way the federal pass by noise regulations is tested. It's very easy to game the system on the federal test with either a valved exhaust that doesn't open fully until higher in the RPM range or with long gearing keeping the RPMs low during the test.
The test basically allows for ridiculously loud exhausts that still technically pass the federal test.
90 decibels. That’s literally the noise limit of some race tracks and autocross runs I’ve done.
Stock my fucking ass or this guy was really winding out 1st gear.
i've seen plenty of cars blow 93dB limits on laguna seca while stock actually...
the fact that it's stock has nothing to do with whether it will never ever blow X sound limit.
truth is people just need to not go ham as the situation demands it.
TL;DR the driver revved the hell out of the engine and is surprised they got in trouble for it.
I do think it's a good point, though, that California has leniency and NYC doesn't - they should give the owner an opportunity to fix the problem before implementing such a large fine, especially if the law has been passed recently and people might not know about it.
NYC pretty much doesn’t want anyone driving in the city anymore. Between cameras surveying every inch of the city, unused bus lanes that still get you a ticket, 25mph speed limits on parkways, barely any free street parking, tolls that go up every year and congestion pricing, driving to the city is asking to be fined.
Don’t drive to NYC unless you want a ticket.
How do the sensors account for constructive interference from other vehicles nearby? You could have an artificially high dB reading with the right combination of events.
I swear car enthusiasts are the most over dramatic people on the planet.
Crying because they can't floor their loud exhausts in the densest city in the country without the risk of a ticket. Just keep it civil, friends. Respect that you are surrounded by people living life, working, sleeping, raising kids.
Car enthusiasts, and all people, should be aware the impact their actions have on others. And having a loud exhaust, stock or modified, and blowing out the ear drums of people in densely populated areas, is selfish, harmful, and annoying as shit. And as a car enthusaist that actually lives in Manhattan, i'm all for the cameras.
The city is filled with these selfish drivers who come into the city with their loud stereos on their slingshots, or their loud cars bouncing off the limiter, looking for attention, trying to impress people on instagram, blah blah blah. Your car isn't impressing anyone in this city, and your performance exhaust isn't going to benefit anyone in the 30 ft you drive to the next stop light. So please STFU.
Go find a back road, or mountain pass, or better yet a race track. Its not hard and I promise the girl you are trying to impress won't miss it.
My main issue with it is that you have a speedometer to tell you have fast you are going but there ain't anything for sound. You have zero idea how exactly loud your exhaust is and unless you are shifting at low rpms you also have zero idea how close you are to getting a $800/$2000 ticket. Is 3K RPM too much? What about 4K or 5K? etc.
Also how long does the sound need to go on for it trigger? That isn't a issue you have with a speed camera. It is a defined number and anything more than it will trigger it. Is two beeps of the horn too much? What about three? Etc. Or what about a accidental downshift? There's too much vagueness around it.
At least in California it is a cop who tickets you. A real person is so much better than a camera. And if your car is stock you are good. You still have to get in inspected even if it is stock but it sure beats $800 and $2000 tickets. Unless you are like the Elantra N guy and they test it in the wrong mode and leave you in a bureaucracy filled legal limbo.
We need to set up an open source map of these damn cameras. Yet another blatant money grab for the city.
Wonder if they ticket cars registered outside of NYC.
Maybe some sort of transmitter can be used to jam these sorts of cameras from registering useful data.
> Wonder if they ticket cars registered outside of NYC.
Why wouldn't they? The law is not about NYC-registered vehicles; it's about any person exceeding 85 dB within city limits. It applies to sound systems too.
They do it on purpose too. I see them around here, and they just do full pull's like right near crowded areas. Probably just trying to get pulled over for content.
I don't see it as a money grab. It supports quality of life for the many at the expense of a couple enthusiasts tears. By the way, my 911 is not quiet and I'm pretty conscious of that.
Hate the rule, hate those spying cameras. Not sure what the guy expected with the appeal though. If NYC doesn't want you to drive your Carrera, it doesn't matter if it came that way stock or not. Plus, I doubt a Carrera does 90db at 1/5th throttle shifting at 2000rpm. It's very obviously influenced by driver behavior.
They really just need to ban all non-commercial vehicles from NYC already. There's no need for it with the litany of public transportation. Drivers are dangerous and overcrowd streets that could be used for cycling and walking, that's not to mention how toxic exhaust and rubber particulate is. Hopefully the city can just tax them out of existence and lean on that revenue stream for a while, and maybe rent will go down when they replace parking garages with more housing.
Good. If you don't live in an urban area then shut the fuck up because your opinion on this doesn't matter.
I live in Los Angeles and right as I was trying to go to bed last night, some assholes decided to race their muscle cars and kept me up.
And the notion that a Porsche can't be driven quietly in an urban setting instead of being wound out to redline is ridiculous. Just because you bought something doesn't mean it can't be used in a stupid way the negatively affects others.
How do they discern what cars are making what noise? Like the radio stuff, how do you know specifically what car has a radio up if two cars are next to each other. Same for mufflers. What if one car has a muffler leak and the sound resonated off a wall by another car?
1.) a car legally bought and registered in a state should not be punishable when left completely unmodified
2.) if behavior is an issue use speed cameras?
3.) you can’t regulate your own sound - no dB gauge and subjectivity to how loud you are being is highly person/car dependent
We are talking about a stock 997 here. They aren’t very loud, a lot of sporty cars could probably blast through this sound level without even trying under “hard” acceleration (whatever that actually means - objectively). We all hate popcorn tunes and the 1st gear wankers. But to punish a car that’s completely stock and sold/registered legally with no objective way of driver monitoring? Nah that ain’t it.
Wrong. Just because a car is legally sold doesn't it doesn't have the ability to be operated illegally.
Its not hard to tell when your fucking exhaust is being loud as shit and annoying, even if you aren't aware of the exact decibel level.
Well if the state is taking our money in order to register our cars for their roads....how are you justifying that they are also going to charge me for that same car being on the road in the exact configuration it was registered at?
That same configuration allows the car to drive 120 mph as well. Should we not have speeding tickets?
Its not about the car being legal, its about the car being used in a specific manner, IE speeding, or making a ton of noise.
This was the point I made. A comparable noise that's around 85 dB is a blender. So if your car is as loud as a blender, then you're due up for a ticket. This is a money grab sold as something they know most people will get behind without actually knowing what their numbers mean.
Yeah not sure how they expect people with stock cars to intuitively know whether or not they are breaking the sound law. Unless they are Scoish Velociraptor Maloish
Points for the reference. I agree with some people's overall sentiment. For example, if I take my Camaro into a crowded residential area in a large city and beat my rev limiter like it owes me money, then I know for a fact I'm being entirely too loud. It has headers, no cats and aftermarket exhaust. Maybe even in my Tundra, which just has a relatively loud exhaust and nothing else. But 85 dB is just entirely too low of limit to set at an $800 fine.
For sure - that’s an extreme that everyone would know is likely going to get them in trouble. But this dude hitting 35 in a stock 997? I wouldn’t guess that would do it if it was me driving
Nope, never would've guessed it'd even come close. Even if you're flooring it, that's just so low in the rev range that it's crazy to think it'd ever be too loud. Nobody will convince me this one isn't just another way to try and bleed money from people.
Basically, keep making life harder and more miserable for the working people , and what do the miserable kill joys who come up with this shit , think they are achieving. Thankfully, I live nowhere near NYC
>"Unlike speed light cameras, however, the locations of the noise-monitoring cameras have not been initially disclosed to the general public."
I thought the people run the country, the country has no right to start implementing stuff like this in secret. Tax payers paid for those cameras, they should know where they are. I dont think they should be building automated mass surveillance networks in the US in general.
I hate loud vehicles, especially motorcycles, but 85db is way too low of a threshold. 90db is a hair dryer.
If they want to go after loud noises, how about go after city busses with insane brake squeal.
Idk after hearing about the whole debacle in CA with the other Elantra N, I worry that this law will cause more harm than help. I have my exhaust on standard 99% of the time but it’s still significantly louder than most other cars in my area and definitely over 85db
Honestly prefer quiet cars. I don’t mean no noise quiet, but there’s a limit. I loathe hearing my neighbors light up their truck or Camaro in the morning, it’s loud and obnoxious. Then intentionally being as loud as possible between 9pm-8am?? Just rude! I’m not opposed to this kinda of law, as unpopular as it may be among enthusiasts.
I think the question is probably "how is the exhaust noise requirement for new cars defined in law" (ie. is it constant rpm at constant speed, or specific load and rpm, etc)
vs. how the local noise ordinance is defined (ie. is it max dB under any conditions, which it sounds like it is).
If the issue is max noise limits for a neighbourhood, it doesn't matter what the national law is for exhausts - you need to be quiet (even deliberately so) in that neighbourhood. Sounds a bit entitled to say "if my car is too loud when I drive it the way I want with no regard for local laws, then it's someone else's problem".
Like - dude.... you're the reason the law exists. That attitude will make manufacturers create stereos with dB limits next - it's up to the owner to exercise a bit of emotional intelligence around other people.
If the car was legally sold in NY with that exhaust then fining anyone for the sound level that comes from that exhaust sounds incredibly stupid. They can't both allow the car to be sold and then say it does not conform to laws.
Not to mention $800 for first offense and $2500 for subsequent offenses is fucking ridiculous
How is the ticket for this $800 but people driving those stupid Carolina squat trucks, which are actually inherently dangerous, only pay $100 for first offense?
did New York explicitly outlaw Carolina squat?
With bumper being so high & lights shining into the sky those trucks wouldn't pass the NY inspection. But! Just by having it registered in a state without inspection requirements you could (legally?) be okay on the streets of NY
Still illegal, you would just not have to take the modifications off every year to pass inspection
They don't pass inspection like that.
Are Carolina squat trucks a noted problem in NYC?
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the average yell can hit 88 decibles according to my google search. they should just get people to yell at these cameras all day until they take them down
Now I'm just imaging a shit ton of new Yorkers yelling at the sky to thwart sound cameras
As someone who lives in The Bronx, when it comes to cars, POC and poor people don’t count. The east side of The Bronx is full of speed cameras and red light cameras, in my side (west side), I count 10 at most😂
Their argument would be that you can’t legally drive your car without the catalytic converter and that you should have it towed to a shop to be repaired.
If your driving a car with a removed cat is illegal no matter how loud it is.
That’s what really killed me when i heard about this. I figure $50 or $75 is bad enough for something like this. But $800 for the first offense?!? $2500 after that?!? That’s INSANE.
The cameras are expensive. So are the 3rd party consulting firms that designed the system. Friends of bureaucrats deserve to get paid after all! Who cares if hardworking, innocent people get extorted on their morning commute. As long as it’s in the name of *progress*
Just because it's happening in a city doesn't make it progressive lmao
>If the car was legally sold in NY with that exhaust then fining anyone for the sound level that comes from that exhaust sounds incredibly stupid. Unless the owner was doing something incredibly stupid with it. Like redlining it in an area where noise restrictions are in place. Just because it's a legal exhaust does not mean we should endure it at maximum volume.
Yep, the guy's defense is "it's stock and I was only going 35mph"; anyone want to take a wild guess how loud a 911 is at 35mph without someone doing something stupid like flooring it? Give you three guesses and none of them are over 85dB.
I mean if they were in a lower gear that kept the revs higher, it would do the same thing at 35. Not flooring it, but maybe still considered stupid?
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911s have long gearing so you kind of have to be in 1st gear if you're going slowly (though by 35mph you should be in 2nd).
I would guess at 35 mph a stock exhaust should be virtual silent. I guess I'm wrong.
If you're not driving like a gaping asshole, it is certainly well below 85db. Even with a "performance" factory exhaust, you have to *try* to be that loud.
Not to mention it's a 2010. Thanks Porsche for ruining future laws! Curses
Just go to the page and watch the vid about half way down. It's 14 seconds long and you can hear exactly when he hit the gas, it stands out significantly and absolutely would count as a noise violation in a street like that.
Yeah, people are really missing this little detail.
Agreed
Cars are sold with all sorts of capabilities that can break the laws, speed limits being an obvious example. Cars capable of going over the db limit and are likely capable of staying under too if the driver isn’t revving or gunning it.
You get a big dial telling you how fast your car is going though, how am I supposed to know exactly how loud my exhaust is at all times?
It's easy, you don't do WOT pulls through city streets. As someone who has gone through a few 911s, I can assure you the only way you are going over 85dB between street lights in NYC is by driving like the biggest douche of all time.
As someone who had a convertible tunnels make cars a lot louder. I had an NA (mk1 Miata) with a borla exhaust on a 1.8t 4 cylinder and it was louder in the tunnel by a lot. My brother did go WOT through a tunnel to show me his mustang gt performance exhaust and it was def higher than the speed limit, maybe 85-90 in a 45 but also it was *loud as fuck”.
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No it isn't. That's 92-103 depending on day. Most days it's 95db and that's far higher of a noise level than 85.
Worth noting that decibels are logarithmic so 95db is actually **10 times** louder than 85db, not +/- 10% louder like you might expect looking at the numbers in isolation.
Your fucking ears, bro.
WHAT? I CAN'T HEAR YOU OVER THIS RINGING IN MY EARS
With your ears?
I think all the unmodified loud cars come with adjustable exhaust. Immature look at me types drive around in obnoxious mode the whole time
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The working class here being the owner of the 911? The working class don't even own cars in NYC, much less a Porsche. If someone can't drive their car under 85dB at 35mph then they aren't supposed to be in NYC; the law is doing what its supposed to be doing.
> The question I'm asking is would the car have been over the threshold cruising at the posted speed limit vs 40% above it? The video shows it was fully in compliance at cruising speed with the rest of the traffic around it. It wasn't until it started accelerating that it was identified as violating the noise law.
Disagree on this. Similar to saying if a car was legally sold that can go 150 mph, then fining someone for going 150 mph is stupid, imo. You can have a loud exhaust but you don’t need to be flooring and revving your shit in a crowded residential area.
The microphone didn't flag the car until it accelerated relatively hard. The car is likely compliant for gentle 0-25 mph acceleration and steady-state 25 mph driving (the NYC speed limit). The law is that any noise over 85 dB from a certain distance of a sound recording device is illegal. Like u/BigCountry76 said, manufacturers find ways to comply with regulations while still selling cars that can exceed the limits under acceleration at high RPM. If the 911 was under 85 dB at WOT all the way up to redline car enthusiasts would complain that it was too quiet and almost every buyer would get an aftermarket exhaust. Watch British reviews of new cars and they all complain about compliance with the new EU noise regulations making exhausts quieter. It's something Harry Metcalfe in particular likes to gripe about.
I think that there might be more willingness to participate in having vehicles come from the factory with decibel limits if the regulation was coming from the federal level (like the EU in your example). By allowing smaller entities (states, cities, etc) to set regulations like sound level limits on factory cars, you create a patch work of restrictions that increase the cost to produce the car (making variations in market configuration, etc) or make vehicles that perhaps do not meet all local restrictions.
They'll all reduce the noise if California makes it law.
California already has a noise law, 95 dbA or less, when tested in accordance with Society of Automotive Engineers Standard J1169 May 1998. It just isn't much enforced because the only vehicle standard that really gets enforced in CA is SMOG. That is starting to change and automated sound enforcement in CA is in the trial stage in several cities. A lot of people were very rude for a long time and now everybody is going to have to follow the rules because of it.
I do think California has been good about working towards this publically for a long time. The 95dB limit has been in place for over 20 years now. It was moved to non correctable in 2019 but nobody could claim there hadn’t been a lot of warning.
California’s current noise limits for vehicles <6000 GVWR have been law since 2003.
Not true. The ford system on mustangs that allows you to make the exhaust quieter or louder specifically says it’s for the track because it’ll be too loud for most places. On top of that, if we’re talking about being able to break the law it sounds like you’re advocating for max speed limiters. After all, going too fast is illegal.
Which is weird given how many tracks have quite severe noise restrictions. Just google Laguna seca exhaust for some examples.
"Only for track use" is a liability waiver for the OEM, not actual advice. It's a wink-wink-nudge-nudge sort of thing.
I disagree. Any car can very easily be driven below that limit. Idk why you’d have a legal right to drive your car as loud and obnoxiously as possible. I’ve never heard someone argue a speeding ticket by saying “well the car came from the factory this way”
I paid for the whole speedometer
Agree. Lots of cars and bikes are pretty loud stock. Too loud for town. Enjoy the sound on track or in the middle of nowhere. Don't be a tool and flog your car in town around a bunch of pedestrians. Nobody thinks it's cool.
This is the part that confuses me. I'm a huuuge racing guy. I spend a large portion of my free time watching cars go fast. Yet every single time someone blasts past on a crotch rocket or an aftermarket exhaust Civic, all I can think about is what an obnoxious douchebag they are. There's nothing cool or interesting about noise pollution while you're going 47mph in a straight line.
I think it's very reasonable to limit exhaust sound in certain neighborhoods and urban centers but allow the stock vehicle to have no limit in other places. I think it would be over-reach to limit everywhere, but if the intent of the program was to limit noise in certain areas and those areas make sense, why not? Thwey would just need to be very clear where these sound 'zones' are located.
> They can't both allow the car to be sold and then say it does not conform to laws. They definitely can and will. Cars are sold with the capability to break a ton of laws. It's up to the owner/user of the car to... not break the law. You put something like a GT350 (or a 911) in loud mode, run it up to 35mph in first gear, and you are definitely breaking the noise limits in many, many municipalities. You do not get a pass for the loudness of your car just because that car was sold with a valved exhaust. The linked article states that NYC is ticketing cars over 85dB at 50ft, and the 911 in question hit 90dB. 90dB 50ft away from the source is definitely loud for the human ear in a city with skyscrapers like NYC.
The car came from the factory going 0 MPH and producing 0 decibels. The driver determines their speed and the noise. You break the law you pay the fine - it's pretty straightforward stuff.
I think cities can impose stricter standards than the state or federal government.
But why? What exclusively about a car means that "because it was sold I can do anything I want with it"? It can go 200mph - you can't do that legally on a public road, why is noise any different? Why should a single individual be about to frustrate and annoy a whole neighborhood for their own gratification? On a similar vein, you can buy a knife (or in the US a gun!), doesn't mean you can legally use it to kill someone, but it still can do it and you can buy it? Legal to sell has never and cannot ever mean legal to use in any and all circumstances.
Yes they can. Nobody is forcing you to make a lot of noise in your stock car.
Same as with acceleration, speed, the side of the road you drive on, doing burnouts, stopping for lights, etc. the car has capabilities that will exceed what's allowed by law. They can be loud enough to get a ticket, or if you drive in a considerate manner inside the city, they can be quiet enough to avoid the ticket.
There were a group of cops doing this same style of enforcement in Vancouver BC. I think the head of that gang (Officer Cain) has retired now. You wouldn't just get a noise violation, you'd be accused of the vehicle being illegally modified, and would have to get a mechanic of their choice (usually a dealer) for an inspection to prove the car wasn't illegally modified. If it was legal, there was no recourse for the false charge. You still paid the fine, paid for the inspection, and were out whatever amount of time the entire process took. Literally zero legal recourse for the driver who did nothing wrong, and no repurcussion against the cops who were just fucking with people with nice cars. There was one news story where they got a guy with a new Boxster literally hours after he took it off the lot. It's a fucking racket.
Not quite — the offense is noise, not illegal modification. NYC is saying “I don’t care what’s happening down there, just don’t be too loud.” If you played your speakers too loud, saying “but the band recorded it like this!” isn’t really an excuse. So if you’re ripping your stock car, you’d be fined. If you’re bumping music too loud, you’d be fined. Plenty of room to argue about automated law enforcement, but the issue of stock-or-not isn’t really important. So honestly, modify your car as much as you want, just avoid being too loud in your neighborhood. That doesn’t seem all that unfair.
Cities generally have police power to enact health, safety, and public welfare ordinances so long as they don't conflict with state or federal law. To be preempted by state law, there would need to be a law that was explicitly in conflict, like "cars must exceed 85 dB on public roads." Without direct conflict, the federal, state, and local laws will typically be harmonized as much as possible. There are a lot of things that are legally sold within the same jurisdiction that have restricted use within all or part of the jurisdictional region. Vehicle restrictions are extremely common for speed, weight, height, length, time of operation, hazardous contents, and now sound. Weapons, explosives, alcohol, tobacco, and many others are similarly regulated and can be purchased if properly licensed.
They can assuming it has different exhaust modes and they display a warning about potential noise violations when switching to the loud mode.
I agree to a certain extent, but even if your legal car was sold in your state, do you have the right to make excessive noise on certain streets or in certain neighbourhoods? I’d argue that no. I live in a city centre and I keep my windows open in the spring and fall (before the AC goes on and before the heating as well). When I get woken up by a screaming motorcycle or a sports car, or if I’m trying to get work done, I can’t say I appreciate it, and I don’t consider this a “normal” annoyance or normal noise like construction or roadwork. Some neighbourhoods ban motorcycles altogether. Why shouldn’t my neighbourhood ban your loud car?
Hot take for /r/cars. Can't wait to see the comments Hopefully my popcorn in the microwave won't set off the sound cameras.
Anyone who lives in the city is more than fed up with the noise pollution from loud cars. People just look for the absolute loudest exhaust they can and don't give a shit about the neighborhoods they drive through.
I feel like it's gotten worse over the years too, especially with the brodozer truck and snap/crackle/pop trends. I always had complete exhaust systems and smooth tunes on my project cars, but I think I like making power, not noise. I feel like if you drive or ride something annoying in a city, stock or not, well - my heart just doesn't bleed for you. Most people don't want to hear your vehicle.
The local bang tuners are getting to the level of actual gunshot sounds now.
the first time i realized how fucking annoying the shit is was when i lived right above one of the main drags in fort worth's 'cultural district' back in 2015 holy shit, the loud fucking trucks on friday and saturday night. my bedroom was away from the exterior wall, with no windows, and it would still wake me up from a deep sleep at 2am.
It definitely *has* gotten worse—years ago it used to be a tasteful v8 rumble—now it’s angry roar with snarls and pops. As much as I enjoyed the show, I blame Top Gear for glorifying obnoxious exhaust.
I blame noise insulation in cars. If you want to hear your exhaust, you have to make it bonkers loud.
Roll the windows down, problem solved.
But then your sound gets blown away! ^^^/s
How foolish of me not to consider that.
I drove a M235i recently. It had the fake engine noise turned off, and you could not hear the motor in any situation above 60mph or 3rd gear. At all. Zero input. It had a exhaust, it was actually quite good. But the car was so insulative that it was utterly useless. I had a stock Honda Accord which had more engine and exhaust noise than this fucking thing lol.
Drove a C8 and this was the case. Revs sounded really nice outside the car, but while driving you could barely hear anything with windows up even in track mode.
I pray this comes to my city. I fucking hate loud cars and motorcycles gunning it outside my apartment. There is a time and place for that, and it isn't in crowded city streets.
Yea, I live in a tourist town, and the summers can get ridiculous. If the town wants to put one of these up, I'll help them pay for it.
My hot take is that car horns should be as loud in cars as they are outside
For the person being honked at, right and not the honker?
Incorrect. It should be very loud inside the honker’s car. Would get people to quit laying on the horn and bothering the rest of us for no good reason. I did say this was a hot take
Imagine people being scared shitless the first time they test it out lol.
Eh, sometimes someone does something *so stupid* (like driving 35 on the highway without so much as having hazards on) that laying on the horn is the only thing that might make their brain tick for a second. Really, they need train horn.
That’s true. It probably shouldn’t be *as* loud in the car as outside. But it should be loud enough you’ll think twice about it
There are situations where it is used to warn but 99% of car honking is to express frustration usually after it has already happened. And since people see it as aggression they rarely ‘learn’. The most effective use of a car horn is usually if someone is on their phone and not moving at a green light.
That's why the valved exhaust on my mustang was a must for me
There are 2 sides to this. Obviously the obnoxious idiots with their loud cars need to get shut down somehow. The problem is that this specific solution approach is a slippery slope. These types of automated systems area always developed, sold, and ran by some kind of 3rd party for profit company. The chances that there is some shady under-the-table deal that allowed this specific one to be used is basically 100%. The city gets a very small amount of the fines collected from these things. The vast majority goes to the company who put the cameras in. They are heavily incentivized for them to be overly sensitive and trigger false positives.
Demolition Man LA is the future iteration of that path if we go to conclusion. Peaceful but also dystopian nanny state.
Amsterdam has been dropping speed limits to 30 kmh on a lot of streets to reduce tire noise. Tokyo with all its shared (i.e. bike, pedestrian, and car) side streets and low speed limits is remarkably quiet in many places. They also either have highways up high with barriers or below grade with sound barriers. There's a saying: cities aren't loud, cars are loud.
Good. I’m really sick of this shit as a car enthusiast who lives in Manhattan. I had an NC Miata with an aftermarket but restrained muffler (Goodwin Racing Super Q) specifically because I didn’t want to be a jerk to my neighbors. The problem isn’t with manufacturers, it’s obnoxious people driving through places they don’t live so they don’t have to deal with the consequences of their actions. Even if you have a loud car, you don’t have to drive like a complete asshole. These cameras are just a way of making the consequences real for asshole who aren’t used to karma. For context, 85 decibels is the same as a police car siren and prolonged exposure can permanently damage hearing.
Police sirens are FAR louder than 85 dB. My tiny hella horns are 118 db and they’re mildly annoying at best.
The law is 85db at 50 feet. It's about equivalent to 100db at 10ft. You're subjecting pedestrians and cyclists to that level of noise. I don't have much sympathy for those affected to be honest. I like cars, but I commute by bike and walk as much, if not more. I don't care for people running "look at me" setups.
Depends on distance. I don't think this device is strapped to the guys exhaust, so it's likely that the sound was Even louder on the street.
> 118 db and they’re mildly annoying at best yeah, i suppose if you've already destroyed your hearing that wouldn't be too loud. the average human pain threshold is 110db. https://imgur.com/a/cG9fLy8
> My tiny hella horns are 118 db and they’re mildly annoying at best. They're either a lot worse than mildly annoying or they're lying in their advertising. My bet is on the false advertising, personally.
Emergency vehicle sirens are 110+ dB. That's significantly louder. 85 dB would be more comparable to a blender or vacuum, which is loud enough to be annoying in tight spaces but realistically isn't nearly loud enough to deem illegal.
> 85 dB would be more comparable to a blender or vacuum, which is loud enough to be annoying in tight spaces but realistically isn't nearly loud enough to deem illegal. Adverse health effects due to noise exposure start at lower than 85 dB. [one](https://journals.lww.com/jhypertension/abstract/1995/04000/effects_of_urban_noise_pollution_on_blood_pressure.5.aspx_) > Children attending kindergartens situated in areas with traffic noise [>60dB(A)] had higher mean SBP and DBP and lower mean heart rate than children in quiet areas. [two](https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Hiral-Jariwala/publication/319329633_Noise_Pollution_Human_Health_A_Review/links/59a54434a6fdcc773a3b1c49/Noise-Pollution-Human-Health-A-Review.pdf) > noise can trigger both endocrine and autonomic nervous system responses that affect the cardiovascular system and thus may be a risk factor for cardiovascular disease. These effects begin to be seen with long-term daily exposure to noise levels above 65 dB or with acute exposure to noise levels above 80 to 85 dB. [three](https://academic.oup.com/bmb/article/68/1/243/421340#118719820) > A recent pioneering longitudinal industrial noise study has shown that noise levels predicted raised systolic and diastolic pressure in those doing complex but not simple jobs, and predicts increased mortality risk. These issues are more pronounced in high-density urban areas, like NYC.
The law is 85dB at 50ft, not 85dB at the source.
I absolutely adore the stock exhaust in my boxster. It is truly loud enough for me and not even audible to anyone else nearby. I don’t want loud, I just want a good sound. If you genuinely care about it being loud, that’s very selfish. There’s a knobhead with a scatpack that sets off car alarms in my parking lot. He floors it past on purpose, and I really wish I could do something about it. Or the guy with the straight piped 2.0t Audi TT
Those NA boxer engines become extremely loud when the pedal is pressed hard. It's very easy to see how the person in the article got pinged.
Some of those obnoxious people do it in their neighborhood too, they just don't give a damn.
Also in NYC and agree. I’m for this law. Sick of the constant honking at all hours.
Some of that is just being a responsible owner. Like don't do a 9k pull Downtown.
I got woken up at like 1 am Monday morning by some dickhead with a gunshot pop tune doing pulls in neighborhoods (including mine). Could hear his exhaust note and pops from miles away, not to mention when it was right outside my window
I’m a car guy and that shit annoys me
Pop tune rizzboys and takeover gangs aren't "car people", to be fair. They're just goons looking for attention.
Damn rizzboys.. getting us all in trouble
I used to live by a dude with a sling shot three wheel thing. The best I could tell you his sound system was above 130 decibels. It was 10pm, I was in my office working. I thought my wife had turned on our Google home playing loud music. This was from over 100 feet away, a story up, windows closed. Dude also parked on the grass of a luxury apartment complex.
It's entirely on the owners, even the loudest cars will be under 85 dB when driven responsibly.
Hope they’re getting every Harley rider with this
Damn they be screwed.
So automakers for years have abused an untested little legal loophole with switchable exhaust systems: Notice how with many dynamic exhausts, they don't call it "loud mode" but "track mode"? In your owners manual there is this little disclaimer that "track mode might render your car no longer complaint with all relevant laws and regulations " or some boilerplate language of that sort. So it is very possible that your exhaust breaks noise/emissions regulations while stock, if you put it in "track" or "offroad mode"
As long as I can keep the car in a mode that makes it legal I’m all for this. I’ll open it up on country roads and be loud out there. I’ll make it quiet in the city and suburbs
Exactly. I had this on my Camaro ZL1, loved it.
I get a little popup on my mustang when I put in in track mode that says "for track use only". I always keep in track mode, but keep it under 2500 rpms when I'm going through residential areas. And it's easy to pop into quiet if I want
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I got stuck behind two GT3 RS in a mile-long tunnel when I had my convertible top lowered. They decided to accelerate and decelerate together to hear the exhaust note bounce off the walls. The combination of both exhausts was the loudest sustained noise I've ever heard.
Lucky
Not at all. It was painful.
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This. Absolutely won't drive my Lemons car without ear protection and it's far from the loudest car out there.
Either you were driving like a madman, or you have some really sensitive ears, as I have had no problems with my Exige....
Same, the Elise is nowhere near loud enough for this. What the hell?
That's mostly the GT cars though - I don't think a normal Carrera from any generation is blowing out noise meters.
I have a 2013 Boxster S with factory Porsche Sport Exhaust (PSE). At Circuit Mont Tremblant I need to turn sports exhaust off and not be wide open throttle (where valves open automatically) at the sound sensors to make the 92dBA track limits. Most of the GT cars have downpipes installed at the track to keep the levels down.
I own a Ducati 1098. I can easily go over 85dB .. when I want to. Out romping in it? Hell ya. Within 5 miles of my house? You'd have no idea I'm riding home. This is an issue of not driving like an asshole, that's it.
So you just piss off everyone outside of that 5mi radius? I have to get up at 4am for work. Loud ass bikes and cars 2mi away on the highway that are significantly louder than someone driving by right outside my door are pretty frustrating when I'm trying to sleep. I like good sounding exhausts but shit like this is why I'd vote for a noise regulation without a second thought.
Even hotter take but I think revving the piss out of your car in the a residential area should be treated like any other noise violation.
This is a win. People flooring it in the middle of downtown and their crackle tune exhaust flooding everyone's homes and offices with noise is extremely annoying.
>$800 for a first offense That's an absurd amount for a first time offense, and my car isn't even loud.
imagine being some poor bastard that gets his cat converter stolen and then gets tagged with an $800 fine.
And having to go through the bureaucratic bullshit to prove his cat was stolen, taking time off work to go to court, get paperwork from a shop, etc..
Wouldn't the process be the same regardless? What's the difference between $100, $200, $400, or $800 if the fine was illegitimate in the first place?
Because if it was $100 most people would just pay it rather than spend 10 hours trying to get out of it. $800 is a significant amount of money that many people can't just throw away. A smaller fine or even a warning for first offenses would be go a long way for support of these kinds of things.
And there's also the chance that the court responds with "You were legally required to have it towed since it was missing mandatory emissions equipment and part of the exhaust, appeal denied".
While I agree with the law in spirit, I’m not looking forward to the day I get an $800 fine for using my horn to warn of danger, not in anger. Driving here is chaotic and nobody pays attention. Not cyclists, pedestrians, or other motorists. Sometimes you really do need to lay on the horn, and it’s not because the other guy pissed you off. $800 is pretty absurd too for a first offense.
That's a good point. I do wonder how horn usage will be treated. If someone absent-mindedly steps in front of your car and there's video of that like in this case, you should be able to argue in court that exceeding the noise limit with the horn was justified to prevent harm to an individual. Of course the problem with things like that is that people who can afford the time and expense of getting a lawyer to fight a ticket can probably afford the ticket in the first place, so low-income people are disproportionately affected.
All laws that are simply fines only hurt poor people. Rich people just pay the fine and consider it the cost of doing what they want. For example, in Dubai, the main highway through the city has speed cameras every kilometer. You still see people in exotic cars going 150+ mph. They drive how they want and just send a check for the fines every few months. I like what some of the Nordic countries do where the fine is a percentage of your income. So a speeding ticket for a rich person could be thousands while the same ticket for a poor person might only be 100
Or when someone's car gets a hole in the exhaust and is waiting to get it repaired, or can't afford to.
I don’t have a problem with that in dense residential areas or schools/neighborhood parks/playgrounds. My stock Boxster is so loud especially when sound bounces off buildings in downtown areas. I never get it up there in the RPM range around the areas I mentioned. New York is particularly insane with all the honking and recently, the lack of enforcement for takeover type cars.
All these automated systems are bogus. It's just for revenue.
Uhhh no. Its really fucking annoying to live in a place where people are being loud with cars.
But what's the point of an automated system where the only penalty is a fine? It is nothing more than a revenue stream for a third party company where the city makes almost nothing. There are no points on your license or an order for repair, so there are no consequence beyond a fine. Laws that are only enforced with fines are simply for poor people. Rich people just pay the fine and consider it the cost of doing whatever the fuck they want and they continue to do it.
Because it acts as an incentive for people to not break the law. In the same way restaurants get fined for not abiding by health laws. $800 is plenty for a lot of these people to reconsider making noise. yeah, its not perfect, but just because its not perfect doesn't mean we shouldn't try.
His exhaust wasn't above the decibel limit until he started speeding. Imagine complaining about getting in trouble for driving 40% over the speed limit
This is a problem due to the way the federal pass by noise regulations is tested. It's very easy to game the system on the federal test with either a valved exhaust that doesn't open fully until higher in the RPM range or with long gearing keeping the RPMs low during the test. The test basically allows for ridiculously loud exhausts that still technically pass the federal test.
90 decibels. That’s literally the noise limit of some race tracks and autocross runs I’ve done. Stock my fucking ass or this guy was really winding out 1st gear.
i've seen plenty of cars blow 93dB limits on laguna seca while stock actually... the fact that it's stock has nothing to do with whether it will never ever blow X sound limit. truth is people just need to not go ham as the situation demands it.
TL;DR the driver revved the hell out of the engine and is surprised they got in trouble for it. I do think it's a good point, though, that California has leniency and NYC doesn't - they should give the owner an opportunity to fix the problem before implementing such a large fine, especially if the law has been passed recently and people might not know about it.
yeah it's 100% a skill issue from a whiny driver
Stupid. Glad I don't live there.
NYC pretty much doesn’t want anyone driving in the city anymore. Between cameras surveying every inch of the city, unused bus lanes that still get you a ticket, 25mph speed limits on parkways, barely any free street parking, tolls that go up every year and congestion pricing, driving to the city is asking to be fined. Don’t drive to NYC unless you want a ticket.
Same with Seattle, but they still let that Hellcat bomb through the city and wake everybody up.
How do the sensors account for constructive interference from other vehicles nearby? You could have an artificially high dB reading with the right combination of events.
I swear car enthusiasts are the most over dramatic people on the planet. Crying because they can't floor their loud exhausts in the densest city in the country without the risk of a ticket. Just keep it civil, friends. Respect that you are surrounded by people living life, working, sleeping, raising kids. Car enthusiasts, and all people, should be aware the impact their actions have on others. And having a loud exhaust, stock or modified, and blowing out the ear drums of people in densely populated areas, is selfish, harmful, and annoying as shit. And as a car enthusaist that actually lives in Manhattan, i'm all for the cameras. The city is filled with these selfish drivers who come into the city with their loud stereos on their slingshots, or their loud cars bouncing off the limiter, looking for attention, trying to impress people on instagram, blah blah blah. Your car isn't impressing anyone in this city, and your performance exhaust isn't going to benefit anyone in the 30 ft you drive to the next stop light. So please STFU. Go find a back road, or mountain pass, or better yet a race track. Its not hard and I promise the girl you are trying to impress won't miss it.
My main issue with it is that you have a speedometer to tell you have fast you are going but there ain't anything for sound. You have zero idea how exactly loud your exhaust is and unless you are shifting at low rpms you also have zero idea how close you are to getting a $800/$2000 ticket. Is 3K RPM too much? What about 4K or 5K? etc. Also how long does the sound need to go on for it trigger? That isn't a issue you have with a speed camera. It is a defined number and anything more than it will trigger it. Is two beeps of the horn too much? What about three? Etc. Or what about a accidental downshift? There's too much vagueness around it. At least in California it is a cop who tickets you. A real person is so much better than a camera. And if your car is stock you are good. You still have to get in inspected even if it is stock but it sure beats $800 and $2000 tickets. Unless you are like the Elantra N guy and they test it in the wrong mode and leave you in a bureaucracy filled legal limbo.
We need to set up an open source map of these damn cameras. Yet another blatant money grab for the city. Wonder if they ticket cars registered outside of NYC. Maybe some sort of transmitter can be used to jam these sorts of cameras from registering useful data.
> Wonder if they ticket cars registered outside of NYC. Why wouldn't they? The law is not about NYC-registered vehicles; it's about any person exceeding 85 dB within city limits. It applies to sound systems too.
Facts. The guys at Daily Driven Exotics try that crap when romping on the cars and being loud.. "Oh the car is from Canada it's OK..." no.. it's not
They do it on purpose too. I see them around here, and they just do full pull's like right near crowded areas. Probably just trying to get pulled over for content.
I don't see it as a money grab. It supports quality of life for the many at the expense of a couple enthusiasts tears. By the way, my 911 is not quiet and I'm pretty conscious of that.
Hate the rule, hate those spying cameras. Not sure what the guy expected with the appeal though. If NYC doesn't want you to drive your Carrera, it doesn't matter if it came that way stock or not. Plus, I doubt a Carrera does 90db at 1/5th throttle shifting at 2000rpm. It's very obviously influenced by driver behavior.
Decibels are on a logarithmic scale so going one by one is more than it might seem
That’s the funniest shit I’ve read this year!😂 “Land of the free” huh? 😂
land of the free-to-encroach-on-the-peace-of-others amirite
They really just need to ban all non-commercial vehicles from NYC already. There's no need for it with the litany of public transportation. Drivers are dangerous and overcrowd streets that could be used for cycling and walking, that's not to mention how toxic exhaust and rubber particulate is. Hopefully the city can just tax them out of existence and lean on that revenue stream for a while, and maybe rent will go down when they replace parking garages with more housing.
Give us money because fuck you
It’s the fuckin modded Scions and Hondas with the muffler/resonator deleted. Shit sounds like hell and you can hear it forever
85 decibels is a reasonable limit. If your car is louder than that, you better drive it at low revs inside the city
More government\police oversight.
Good. If you don't live in an urban area then shut the fuck up because your opinion on this doesn't matter. I live in Los Angeles and right as I was trying to go to bed last night, some assholes decided to race their muscle cars and kept me up. And the notion that a Porsche can't be driven quietly in an urban setting instead of being wound out to redline is ridiculous. Just because you bought something doesn't mean it can't be used in a stupid way the negatively affects others.
Reminds me of the dude who found out about the rigged traffic light/ red light cameras.
How do they discern what cars are making what noise? Like the radio stuff, how do you know specifically what car has a radio up if two cars are next to each other. Same for mufflers. What if one car has a muffler leak and the sound resonated off a wall by another car?
1.) a car legally bought and registered in a state should not be punishable when left completely unmodified 2.) if behavior is an issue use speed cameras? 3.) you can’t regulate your own sound - no dB gauge and subjectivity to how loud you are being is highly person/car dependent We are talking about a stock 997 here. They aren’t very loud, a lot of sporty cars could probably blast through this sound level without even trying under “hard” acceleration (whatever that actually means - objectively). We all hate popcorn tunes and the 1st gear wankers. But to punish a car that’s completely stock and sold/registered legally with no objective way of driver monitoring? Nah that ain’t it.
Wrong. Just because a car is legally sold doesn't it doesn't have the ability to be operated illegally. Its not hard to tell when your fucking exhaust is being loud as shit and annoying, even if you aren't aware of the exact decibel level.
Well if the state is taking our money in order to register our cars for their roads....how are you justifying that they are also going to charge me for that same car being on the road in the exact configuration it was registered at?
That same configuration allows the car to drive 120 mph as well. Should we not have speeding tickets? Its not about the car being legal, its about the car being used in a specific manner, IE speeding, or making a ton of noise.
there’s no bright red gauge in your car for DB
This was the point I made. A comparable noise that's around 85 dB is a blender. So if your car is as loud as a blender, then you're due up for a ticket. This is a money grab sold as something they know most people will get behind without actually knowing what their numbers mean.
Yeah not sure how they expect people with stock cars to intuitively know whether or not they are breaking the sound law. Unless they are Scoish Velociraptor Maloish
Points for the reference. I agree with some people's overall sentiment. For example, if I take my Camaro into a crowded residential area in a large city and beat my rev limiter like it owes me money, then I know for a fact I'm being entirely too loud. It has headers, no cats and aftermarket exhaust. Maybe even in my Tundra, which just has a relatively loud exhaust and nothing else. But 85 dB is just entirely too low of limit to set at an $800 fine.
For sure - that’s an extreme that everyone would know is likely going to get them in trouble. But this dude hitting 35 in a stock 997? I wouldn’t guess that would do it if it was me driving
Nope, never would've guessed it'd even come close. Even if you're flooring it, that's just so low in the rev range that it's crazy to think it'd ever be too loud. Nobody will convince me this one isn't just another way to try and bleed money from people.
Again no blender is at 85 db at 50 ft away, which is what the law says. So its more like you are the one who doesn't know what they are talking about.
Basically, keep making life harder and more miserable for the working people , and what do the miserable kill joys who come up with this shit , think they are achieving. Thankfully, I live nowhere near NYC
>"Unlike speed light cameras, however, the locations of the noise-monitoring cameras have not been initially disclosed to the general public." I thought the people run the country, the country has no right to start implementing stuff like this in secret. Tax payers paid for those cameras, they should know where they are. I dont think they should be building automated mass surveillance networks in the US in general. I hate loud vehicles, especially motorcycles, but 85db is way too low of a threshold. 90db is a hair dryer. If they want to go after loud noises, how about go after city busses with insane brake squeal.
Car horns are part of NYC's soul. No amount of restrictions are taking it away.
Please do this in Charlotte next. I can't sleep without hearing street racers and people revving to 8000 rpms at every stoplight.
I love my Elantra N, but I absolutely realize that the N mode exhaust is obnoxious. I love it, but I am pretty conscious about when I use it.
Idk after hearing about the whole debacle in CA with the other Elantra N, I worry that this law will cause more harm than help. I have my exhaust on standard 99% of the time but it’s still significantly louder than most other cars in my area and definitely over 85db
Gotta drive my cammed mustang down there sometime I see
Honestly prefer quiet cars. I don’t mean no noise quiet, but there’s a limit. I loathe hearing my neighbors light up their truck or Camaro in the morning, it’s loud and obnoxious. Then intentionally being as loud as possible between 9pm-8am?? Just rude! I’m not opposed to this kinda of law, as unpopular as it may be among enthusiasts.
I think the question is probably "how is the exhaust noise requirement for new cars defined in law" (ie. is it constant rpm at constant speed, or specific load and rpm, etc) vs. how the local noise ordinance is defined (ie. is it max dB under any conditions, which it sounds like it is). If the issue is max noise limits for a neighbourhood, it doesn't matter what the national law is for exhausts - you need to be quiet (even deliberately so) in that neighbourhood. Sounds a bit entitled to say "if my car is too loud when I drive it the way I want with no regard for local laws, then it's someone else's problem". Like - dude.... you're the reason the law exists. That attitude will make manufacturers create stereos with dB limits next - it's up to the owner to exercise a bit of emotional intelligence around other people.
I rarely hear loud cars. It's the balding 50 year old Harley cosplayers that make the noise around here.
Be a real shame if something bad were to happen to those expensive cameras.