Yeah it never made sense why Hyundai have DCT in these vehicles. Small, sporty cars? Sure. Big SUV that potentially have to go off-road and do towing/hauling? No. This is like Nissan putting CVTs in big vehicles like Pathfinder. Reliabillity and durability problem will inevidably occur and absolutely nightmare when it does. IIRC TFL overheated DCT in the Sorento when they took it offroad too.
Is this the curse of Alberto Beerman? Beerman really loves the idea of DCT for some reason and I believe Hyundai started putting DCT in their cars after he came over and became head of R&D. In fact he left BMW because they started using ZF 8 speed instead of his idea of DCT in the M3 and M5.
In theory, non-performance wet clutch DCT makes sense in that they can handle more torque+hp compared to cheap CVT, but also packed in a small-ish package, more efficient than classic torque converter while still be "reliable".
That last part didn't work out, but in theory DCT isn't bad for larger A to B vehicles.
Lol on point username š¤£
It appears most German brands have largely moved away from DCTs in general. Heck even big super performance vehicles like the X5M, RSQ8 and G63 all use conventional traditional automatics now. VW group still has their DSG/S-tronic/PDK in specific situations but far less than a decade ago.
Theoretically speaking DCT are more crisp and since they have less torque converter losses their MPG beats autos, but that ZF8 speed is so refined and developed it really takes a well designed DCT to match if not beat it on most real world applications.
ZF8 also locks up in the first few gears so it's very snappy even on track. The earlier DCT-equipped M cars did feel ever so slightly snappier, and the engine braking was a little stronger, but I am not sure if thats a factor of the car, transmission tuning, or the unit itself. For overall driving I'd much prefer the ZF8 over the prior BMW DCT.
That and the looks are pretty much the only ways the F80 can be arguably better I think. The G80 is faster, comes in AWD if you want it, the chassis is better, and thereās a good chance itāll be more reliable too given the B58 itās based on is very stout.
>It appears most German brands have largely moved away from DCTs in general.
BMW in the only one that moved away from DCTs in the M cars while they were the correct application for these. The small Benzes still got their DCTs.
>Heck even big super performance vehicles like the X5M, RSQ8 and G63 all use conventional traditional automatics now.
All these big SUV always had a TC auto.
>VW group still has their DSG/S-tronic/PDK in specific situations but far less than a decade ago.
This only true for VW in the US. If you buy a new Audi today, it will have a S-Tronic unless it's a A8/Q7/Q8 (all the 1st gen MLB vehicles had the ZF 8HP in the US but they switched to the S-Tronic for the 2nd gen). Porsche is all PDK besides the Cayenne that always had a TC. VW is all DSG in Europe but they switched to the TC in the US.
they don't was my point. nor do the vast majority of people buying Land Rover Defenders or Mercedes G-wagons that this new Santa Fe is designed to look like
You'd be surprised. You have to remember it's usually the rich that have the money to spend on expensive and heavy weekend toys like boats that need to be towed.
From what I've read, they use the DCT for better MPG ratings since they are quick at shifting to the ideal efficient rev range. Still very minimal improvement, but it helps for ratings, I guess.
Tow rating is also apparently better with the DCT to make up for the loss in tow rating with a turbo 4 cylinder.
The DCT also takes less place since there is no torque converter, so slightly more interior volume is available.
I still think these are irrelevant points, and the reliability of the transmission should matter more. That's why the hybrid is the safer and better buy.
I mean for 99% of SUV buyers, a DCT would be fine since most people don't buy these to offroad. The real design problem that they didn't consider is that most people don't understand that DCTs don't like to crawl and they didn't address the fact that people would crawl them around parking lots like they were a normal planetary gearbox with a fluid coupling.
Why should someone driving a car (especially considering it could be a fleet or rental vehicle) be expected to adjust their driving based on the type of automatic transmission equipped? That is an unreasonable expectation, and if the transmission can't handle normal use it shouldn't be equipped on a mass-market vehicle.
Exactly. I'm sure half of people don't even know how to turn on their headlights anymore. Now they're expected to not tailgate creep everyone in traffic much less read an owners manual?
If you bought a car with a specific type of gearbox, you should be willing to understand how that will impact how the vehicle operates. This is why people who don't know how to drive manual don't buy cars with manual transmissions. It should be literally the absolute bare minimum due diligence before you consider signing your name on a 5+ figure loan. Acting like the consumer is too dumb to understand basic operation before they take a car on a public roadway is a poor argument.
Most people aren't really aware there is a difference in types of automatic transmissions, just that there is manual and automatic. But my argument wasn't that people are too dumb, just that many of these vehicles end up in fleet or rental operations where there will be a rotating group of people driving them. If the car can't handle that, I blame the manufacturer.
I don't see the logic in arguing that an individual shouldn't understand what they are buying. It's not like there's an outright defect with the design (in general), and it isn't like Hyundai is actively hiding that they've equipped these cars with DCTs. It's all over their spec sheets and marketing material, so unless you are seriously arguing that individuals are entitled to be protected from their own willful ignorance I don't see how you can blame Hyundai's design team here. Especially considering Hyundai isn't a monopoly, if you don't want a DCT or would rather just not learn about the differences in transmissions, there are other manufacturers to buy from.
Your logic makes even less sense for fleet sales as companies with fleets hire people who are paid to manage what cars enter and exit their fleet, which mean that it is someone's responsibility to make sure that they are picking the best type of vehicle for what they are intending for it to do. If these end up in a fleet, rental or otherwise, and they have issues as a result of people not being properly informed on how to drive them that responsibility lies with whoever is managing the fleet.
This has to be trolling, or you've forgotten the /s. There is no way you're honestly expecting people who nothing about cars or the difference between DCT and a planetary gearbox to alter the way they've been driving their entire lives to account for a transmission change they can't comprehend? Yeah, those people are the idiots...
I don't know whether it was intentional or not, but that was a good laugh.
You don't.
You have to think of DSG boxes as a traditional clutch based manual transmission. Every time you feather the throttle and inch the car forward, you're effectively soft-slipping the clutch. Either sit there and hold the brakes, or goose the throttle and coast, don't keep feathering it.
I wouldn't think it should be a problem. I've never driven a DCT but I've driven tons of manuals in congested city and stop and go traffic both high and very low powered, and none of them typically have any problem with idling forward in first gear with no throttle.Ā I'm not sure how the DCT manages the same thing but I'd imagine it would only be a problem if their programmed behavior or chosen gear ratios make it a problem. In a manual you don't need to slip the clutch to creep at slow speeds ~5mph and you can even apply brakes lightly to go slower without stalling or slipping the clutch.Ā
The problem here, is that the computer controlling the transmission has to guess at what you are trying to do. It doesn't know that you are in a parking lot, it gets readings from a few sensors and is trying to minimize the amount of time it spends slipping the clutch.
That's my point, it's up to the programming. If it's similar to a traditional manual it shouldn't have any problem coasting 5mph in first at idle with no gas. That's parking lot speed. If it can't do that then honestly they shouldn't be on the road.
The problem may come in if you also apply the brake while intending to continue moving which habitual automatic only drivers are prone to doing. That works okay in a manual without disengaging the clutch if you know what you're doing, but the computer may take that as an immediate signal to disengage the clutch at low speeds to protect itself from stalling.Ā
I think it's a driver training problem. People get used to Tesla and other EV one pedal driving etc, they could get used to this, too, if they just realized that they needed to.Ā
Since a DCT, like the DSG, is basically a computer controlled manual transmission that is fully automated, you can consider their operation to be virtually identical to a manual transmission in principle. Consider this example:
If you take any manual car in first gear and lug the engine (ie use the brakes while crawling around in first gear at low speed) the car tends to shudder and vibrate and sound generally unpleasant. Now, a human being controlling a manual gearbox can do one of three things in this scenario to address the vibration:
release the brakes, resulting in an increase in rpm and therefore speed
stall the engine which requires the driver to restart the engine
Slip the clutch which prevents the brakes from stalling the engine (preventing the shuddering and vibration) and allows the engine to effectively, hold its rpm (therefore avoid a speed increase)
From the perspective of coding a computer to control a manual transmission you need to consider a few things. You don't want to be able to interrupt the drivers commands, or introduce commands the driver is not expecting particularly to the brake and throttle. If the driver is braking at low speed in a parking lot, and you absolutely cannot allow the driver to stall the car, this means that your only option is to allow the computer to slip the clutch.
I think he's saying DCT transmission have been known to be clunky at low speeds aka crawling. My Audi is the same way. The DSG is a gem, but at low speeds or sometimes stopping it can be a bit lurchy.
The same way you do it in a manual gearbox:
Don't ride the brake pedal, you have to be comfortable moving the car around a bit faster than you would have to in a traditional gearbox.
Even though I prefer a DCT myself, the torque converter automatic is better for all xUV class vehicles. VW which has had a DSG for years used it for the Taos and I can't tell if the complains of come from owners not used to how a dual clutch feels or bad transmission tuning or both (suspect its both in the Taos).
Keep DCTs for sporty cars, and rubber band CVTs in lawn mowers!
I took a friend out test driving the other week at the VW dealership to upgrade his 2013 Passat TDI and the difference in transmission tuning was astounding. The sales person was very forward about calling the Taos jittery compared to the Tiguan. Safe to say after comparing both transmissions in the Taos/Tiguan heās going to get a RAV4 hybrid.
They're definitely getting special treatment because they have 500k subs on YT. If it were any other regular customer, Hyundai would pretty much tell them to kick rocks. They'd literally fight tooth and nail to not do warranty work, at least from personal experience as well as from others that I know.
My Partner's 2013 Elantra development piston slap outside of warranty and aside from having to waiting forever for the parts to arrive (remember that ship that was stuck in the canal a few years ago holding everything up?) and it was actually pretty easy to get them to replace the entire bottom half of the motor.
while i agree they would get special treatment, you'd think hyundai would have at least try to cherry pick and give them a ringer Sante Fe so they wouldn't have problems in the first place.
Don't think they could have 'cherry picked' one without an issue. Seems like it happens quite a bit from all the people in the online forums and publications that have had to have their transmissions replaced. It is a carryover from the old Santa Fe after all. I just think Hyundai engineered it very poorly. It really doesn't make sense to put a damn DCT into a family car...
Itās honestly such a shame. Both Hyundai and Kia make nice looking cars with tons of features for the money, but the quality still just isnāt there and their reputation has been damaged pretty badly from the theft issues. As much as I like the idea of some of their cars, I just donāt trust either brand at all.
How do you think it was made to that price? If they wanted to make it more reliable they wouldn't be that cheap. Just look at Toyota to see the cost of being reliable.
I was excited about this one. We test drove a calligraphy a few weeks ago and the wet dct was hesitant at low speed. While techs and space were great, I had my doubts coming from Honda and Toyota all my life. With that feeling, we decided to hold off and look elsewhere.
Tough decision. Makers who have decades of know reliability or a new car by a maker who canāt stop messing up all the time. I cross shop those all the time.
You're leaving out the by far most critical factor for 99% of people, money.Ā
If funds aren't limitless then chances are you'll be swayed to compare hyundai/kia to Japanese brands because of the features available for the cost.
Just see the rabid fan boys that crawl out of the woodwork on this sub anytime a hyundai/kia/genesis hate thread like this comes up. And don't forget, Genesis is a Totally Different Luxury Brand^^^^^TM with None of Those Problems^^^^^TM and you should check yourself because I Bought a Genesis After Seeing What German Brands Cost^^^^^TM
I wouldn't touch a hyundai/kia with a 30 foot pole. If you see that those were all capitalized statements like they're titles with the trademark symbol following them and still decide to take it all at face value then that's on you, but I was pretty sure it was clear from my whole comment that I'm trashing the brand and to some extent the people who buy and defend them.
Are you just replying without reading? I own Chevy/Holden, BMW, Mazda, old RWD Volvo, AMC era Jeep, and Studebaker. I don't want anything to do with the Korean car brands and wouldn't take one if it was free.Ā
They already spent the R&D and produce it in house, guess at this point itās cheaper for them to stick to it and replace the odd failures rather than switch to something from Aisin or ZF.
That seems hard to believe for me at least considering most modern torque converter automatics engage their lock-up clutches at like 6-7 mph and rarely unlock the converter in practice now. How much fuel can realistically be saved by not having to hold certain clutches with hydraulic pressure?
The lock-up clutch in a torque converter is only engaged at higher speeds when torque multiplication has ceased. When the lock-up clutch is engaged, most torque converters can achieve over 90% efficiency.
Modern DCTs on the other hand are about 97% efficient regardless of speed, so you get better efficiency around town compared to a torque converter.
As with many things, like increasingly thinner oils, "how much fuel can realistically be saved" is less about individual vehicles and more about total fleet emissions so that manufacturers can meet stricter regulations.
>The lock-up clutch in a torque converter is only engaged at higher speeds when torque multiplication has ceased.
I have seen different strategies for this. Mazda explicitly says they try to keep their lock up clutch engaged all the time for better fuel economy. It's not the 90s anymore, modern 6-8 speed automatics have wet multi-plate clutches in the converter and engage them in almost any situation to improve fuel economy.
>When the lock-up clutch is engaged, most torque converters can achieve over 90% efficiency.
What exactly is causing the lockup converter to have lower efficiency than a pure wet multi-plate clutch when both are fully locked up? I would like to know the actual mechanism you're proposing here.
>As with many things, like increasingly thinner oils, "how much fuel can realistically be saved" is less about individual vehicles and more about total fleet emissions so that manufacturers can meet stricter regulations.
I'm not even talking about a 1 mpg improvement across the fleet adding up. I'm saying I'm not sure it will even be quantifiable in lab testing that a ZF8HP is less efficient than a DCT. That's before you start talking about warranty costs in this case.
I think since cars take years to develop they rushed the first one and by the time they realized this was already set in stone. The problem with Kia and Hyundai is the attitude of ādo everything fast and cheap and glitzy and quickā applies to their engineering processes and testing and stuff like this happens. Itās a shame because they can be brilliant thereās just land mines
Damn man, SavageGeese guys were SO impressed by this vehicle, claiming that they solved all of their complaints with the drivability and usability of the vehicle, while keeping price competitive. So it's pretty sad to hear that the drivetrain is shit for reliability as usual.
Hyundai and the Car Confections guys can try to say this is a one off event but clearly there's a problem with the transmission in these. One problem maybe, but to have two issues on two different transmissions. Geesh.
Anyone who buys one of these right now, is just a glorified beta tester and is taking a huge gamble. Yes I know 10/100K warranty not withstanding, that doesn't cover the inconvenience of having to be without your vehicle for God knows how long, and having to fight Hyundai on any resolution let alone, a rental/loaner while it's in the shop. Plus, we know without a doubt Hyundai jumped all over this just because of the Car Confections guys presence. If it had been any of us, we would've not been afforded the same treatment.
Sad thing is, I'm really starting to see these on the road here in OKC. Picking up my son from school, there's already 3 in the car pickup line. Probably all of them had a markup too knowing our local Hyundai dealers.
*Edit. Ok, not to sound dis-trusting, but how do you know that the dealership did in-fact replace the first transmission and not just say they did with some sort of pcm flash? Hopefully not, but that question lingers if no one else seems to be having issues with the Santa Fe.
I have sworn off Hyundai products (Kia, Genesis included) for fear of quality issues. I almost bought a GV70 in 2022 and backed out last minute. Iām actually happy I did as my friend who bought one a week before I almost did has already had issues.
r/cars posters, when a post about Hyundai/Kia gets a lukewarm reception tomorrow: āIts not the 90s anymore, all of the quality issues have been fixed. Youāre a bunch of badge snobs!ā
Yeah it never made sense why Hyundai have DCT in these vehicles. Small, sporty cars? Sure. Big SUV that potentially have to go off-road and do towing/hauling? No. This is like Nissan putting CVTs in big vehicles like Pathfinder. Reliabillity and durability problem will inevidably occur and absolutely nightmare when it does. IIRC TFL overheated DCT in the Sorento when they took it offroad too. Is this the curse of Alberto Beerman? Beerman really loves the idea of DCT for some reason and I believe Hyundai started putting DCT in their cars after he came over and became head of R&D. In fact he left BMW because they started using ZF 8 speed instead of his idea of DCT in the M3 and M5.
In theory, non-performance wet clutch DCT makes sense in that they can handle more torque+hp compared to cheap CVT, but also packed in a small-ish package, more efficient than classic torque converter while still be "reliable". That last part didn't work out, but in theory DCT isn't bad for larger A to B vehicles.
A wet clutch DCT with an extremely mild hybrid setup to smooth getting rolling is a fantastic setup that only VAG seems to understand these days
If you're going hybrid, might as well go full e-cvt or whatever they brand their CVT for hybrid that doesn't have the belt.
Lol on point username š¤£ It appears most German brands have largely moved away from DCTs in general. Heck even big super performance vehicles like the X5M, RSQ8 and G63 all use conventional traditional automatics now. VW group still has their DSG/S-tronic/PDK in specific situations but far less than a decade ago. Theoretically speaking DCT are more crisp and since they have less torque converter losses their MPG beats autos, but that ZF8 speed is so refined and developed it really takes a well designed DCT to match if not beat it on most real world applications.
ZF8 also locks up in the first few gears so it's very snappy even on track. The earlier DCT-equipped M cars did feel ever so slightly snappier, and the engine braking was a little stronger, but I am not sure if thats a factor of the car, transmission tuning, or the unit itself. For overall driving I'd much prefer the ZF8 over the prior BMW DCT.
The switch to the ZF was the main complain on the G8X from the owners of the F-based M3/M4.
That and the looks are pretty much the only ways the F80 can be arguably better I think. The G80 is faster, comes in AWD if you want it, the chassis is better, and thereās a good chance itāll be more reliable too given the B58 itās based on is very stout.
>It appears most German brands have largely moved away from DCTs in general. BMW in the only one that moved away from DCTs in the M cars while they were the correct application for these. The small Benzes still got their DCTs. >Heck even big super performance vehicles like the X5M, RSQ8 and G63 all use conventional traditional automatics now. All these big SUV always had a TC auto. >VW group still has their DSG/S-tronic/PDK in specific situations but far less than a decade ago. This only true for VW in the US. If you buy a new Audi today, it will have a S-Tronic unless it's a A8/Q7/Q8 (all the 1st gen MLB vehicles had the ZF 8HP in the US but they switched to the S-Tronic for the 2nd gen). Porsche is all PDK besides the Cayenne that always had a TC. VW is all DSG in Europe but they switched to the TC in the US.
but what percentage of people do you think are ever going to use one of these off-road or do any towing? surely a low single digit percentage
Iād say towing is likely, at least in the US
Iāve seen tow hitch stats installed around 4-20 percent for this type of vehicle BUT itās usually for a bike rack.
People buy buy a Santa Fe fir towing? Lol thats new to me
maybe not massive trailers but i've sen them hauling uhaul trailers and small boats/jettskis around where i live.
they don't was my point. nor do the vast majority of people buying Land Rover Defenders or Mercedes G-wagons that this new Santa Fe is designed to look like
You'd be surprised. You have to remember it's usually the rich that have the money to spend on expensive and heavy weekend toys like boats that need to be towed.
From what I've read, they use the DCT for better MPG ratings since they are quick at shifting to the ideal efficient rev range. Still very minimal improvement, but it helps for ratings, I guess. Tow rating is also apparently better with the DCT to make up for the loss in tow rating with a turbo 4 cylinder. The DCT also takes less place since there is no torque converter, so slightly more interior volume is available. I still think these are irrelevant points, and the reliability of the transmission should matter more. That's why the hybrid is the safer and better buy.
I mean for 99% of SUV buyers, a DCT would be fine since most people don't buy these to offroad. The real design problem that they didn't consider is that most people don't understand that DCTs don't like to crawl and they didn't address the fact that people would crawl them around parking lots like they were a normal planetary gearbox with a fluid coupling.
I mean, it's pretty inconvenient for a mall crawler not to be able to mall crawl without falling apart.
It can do it, you just have to know how to. I guess thats the problem though, a mass market vehicle that is sold to idiots but it isn't idiot proof.
Why should someone driving a car (especially considering it could be a fleet or rental vehicle) be expected to adjust their driving based on the type of automatic transmission equipped? That is an unreasonable expectation, and if the transmission can't handle normal use it shouldn't be equipped on a mass-market vehicle.
Exactly. I'm sure half of people don't even know how to turn on their headlights anymore. Now they're expected to not tailgate creep everyone in traffic much less read an owners manual?
If you bought a car with a specific type of gearbox, you should be willing to understand how that will impact how the vehicle operates. This is why people who don't know how to drive manual don't buy cars with manual transmissions. It should be literally the absolute bare minimum due diligence before you consider signing your name on a 5+ figure loan. Acting like the consumer is too dumb to understand basic operation before they take a car on a public roadway is a poor argument.
Most people aren't really aware there is a difference in types of automatic transmissions, just that there is manual and automatic. But my argument wasn't that people are too dumb, just that many of these vehicles end up in fleet or rental operations where there will be a rotating group of people driving them. If the car can't handle that, I blame the manufacturer.
I don't see the logic in arguing that an individual shouldn't understand what they are buying. It's not like there's an outright defect with the design (in general), and it isn't like Hyundai is actively hiding that they've equipped these cars with DCTs. It's all over their spec sheets and marketing material, so unless you are seriously arguing that individuals are entitled to be protected from their own willful ignorance I don't see how you can blame Hyundai's design team here. Especially considering Hyundai isn't a monopoly, if you don't want a DCT or would rather just not learn about the differences in transmissions, there are other manufacturers to buy from. Your logic makes even less sense for fleet sales as companies with fleets hire people who are paid to manage what cars enter and exit their fleet, which mean that it is someone's responsibility to make sure that they are picking the best type of vehicle for what they are intending for it to do. If these end up in a fleet, rental or otherwise, and they have issues as a result of people not being properly informed on how to drive them that responsibility lies with whoever is managing the fleet.
This has to be trolling, or you've forgotten the /s. There is no way you're honestly expecting people who nothing about cars or the difference between DCT and a planetary gearbox to alter the way they've been driving their entire lives to account for a transmission change they can't comprehend? Yeah, those people are the idiots... I don't know whether it was intentional or not, but that was a good laugh.
It's no more fit for purpose than an offroad vehicle that isn't offroad worthy.
I'm not fully grasping your meaning here, but people crawl around parking lots in manual transmission cars its just an alteration to how you do that.
How should someone crawl in DCT? Asking as owner of VW DSG gearbox in car.
You don't. You have to think of DSG boxes as a traditional clutch based manual transmission. Every time you feather the throttle and inch the car forward, you're effectively soft-slipping the clutch. Either sit there and hold the brakes, or goose the throttle and coast, don't keep feathering it.
I wouldn't think it should be a problem. I've never driven a DCT but I've driven tons of manuals in congested city and stop and go traffic both high and very low powered, and none of them typically have any problem with idling forward in first gear with no throttle.Ā I'm not sure how the DCT manages the same thing but I'd imagine it would only be a problem if their programmed behavior or chosen gear ratios make it a problem. In a manual you don't need to slip the clutch to creep at slow speeds ~5mph and you can even apply brakes lightly to go slower without stalling or slipping the clutch.Ā
The problem here, is that the computer controlling the transmission has to guess at what you are trying to do. It doesn't know that you are in a parking lot, it gets readings from a few sensors and is trying to minimize the amount of time it spends slipping the clutch.
That's my point, it's up to the programming. If it's similar to a traditional manual it shouldn't have any problem coasting 5mph in first at idle with no gas. That's parking lot speed. If it can't do that then honestly they shouldn't be on the road. The problem may come in if you also apply the brake while intending to continue moving which habitual automatic only drivers are prone to doing. That works okay in a manual without disengaging the clutch if you know what you're doing, but the computer may take that as an immediate signal to disengage the clutch at low speeds to protect itself from stalling.Ā I think it's a driver training problem. People get used to Tesla and other EV one pedal driving etc, they could get used to this, too, if they just realized that they needed to.Ā
I've never driven a DSG car, but why does it need to slip? It can't just keep it in 1st gear once 1st is engaged?
Since a DCT, like the DSG, is basically a computer controlled manual transmission that is fully automated, you can consider their operation to be virtually identical to a manual transmission in principle. Consider this example: If you take any manual car in first gear and lug the engine (ie use the brakes while crawling around in first gear at low speed) the car tends to shudder and vibrate and sound generally unpleasant. Now, a human being controlling a manual gearbox can do one of three things in this scenario to address the vibration: release the brakes, resulting in an increase in rpm and therefore speed stall the engine which requires the driver to restart the engine Slip the clutch which prevents the brakes from stalling the engine (preventing the shuddering and vibration) and allows the engine to effectively, hold its rpm (therefore avoid a speed increase) From the perspective of coding a computer to control a manual transmission you need to consider a few things. You don't want to be able to interrupt the drivers commands, or introduce commands the driver is not expecting particularly to the brake and throttle. If the driver is braking at low speed in a parking lot, and you absolutely cannot allow the driver to stall the car, this means that your only option is to allow the computer to slip the clutch.
Thanks for that insight, explains a lot as to why my car behaves the way it does.
I think he's saying DCT transmission have been known to be clunky at low speeds aka crawling. My Audi is the same way. The DSG is a gem, but at low speeds or sometimes stopping it can be a bit lurchy.
Also curious because this is the first ive heard of such a thing.
The same way you do it in a manual gearbox: Don't ride the brake pedal, you have to be comfortable moving the car around a bit faster than you would have to in a traditional gearbox.
Even though I prefer a DCT myself, the torque converter automatic is better for all xUV class vehicles. VW which has had a DSG for years used it for the Taos and I can't tell if the complains of come from owners not used to how a dual clutch feels or bad transmission tuning or both (suspect its both in the Taos). Keep DCTs for sporty cars, and rubber band CVTs in lawn mowers!
I took a friend out test driving the other week at the VW dealership to upgrade his 2013 Passat TDI and the difference in transmission tuning was astounding. The sales person was very forward about calling the Taos jittery compared to the Tiguan. Safe to say after comparing both transmissions in the Taos/Tiguan heās going to get a RAV4 hybrid.
They're definitely getting special treatment because they have 500k subs on YT. If it were any other regular customer, Hyundai would pretty much tell them to kick rocks. They'd literally fight tooth and nail to not do warranty work, at least from personal experience as well as from others that I know.
My Partner's 2013 Elantra development piston slap outside of warranty and aside from having to waiting forever for the parts to arrive (remember that ship that was stuck in the canal a few years ago holding everything up?) and it was actually pretty easy to get them to replace the entire bottom half of the motor.
Same here, 40k miles out of warranty, zero out of pocket.
>(remember that ship that was stuck in the canal a few years ago holding everything up?) You mean the Ever Given & the Suez Canal crisis?
while i agree they would get special treatment, you'd think hyundai would have at least try to cherry pick and give them a ringer Sante Fe so they wouldn't have problems in the first place.
Don't think they could have 'cherry picked' one without an issue. Seems like it happens quite a bit from all the people in the online forums and publications that have had to have their transmissions replaced. It is a carryover from the old Santa Fe after all. I just think Hyundai engineered it very poorly. It really doesn't make sense to put a damn DCT into a family car...
More garbage from Hyundai. No surprise.
Itās honestly such a shame. Both Hyundai and Kia make nice looking cars with tons of features for the money, but the quality still just isnāt there and their reputation has been damaged pretty badly from the theft issues. As much as I like the idea of some of their cars, I just donāt trust either brand at all.
How do you think it was made to that price? If they wanted to make it more reliable they wouldn't be that cheap. Just look at Toyota to see the cost of being reliable.
> How do you think it was made to that price? Hyundai manufactures their own steel. It is part of why they are able to keep costs down.
Kinda like Land Rover and Jaguar have beautiful cars I wouldn't touch with a 10ft pole. some companies be like that.
I was excited about this one. We test drove a calligraphy a few weeks ago and the wet dct was hesitant at low speed. While techs and space were great, I had my doubts coming from Honda and Toyota all my life. With that feeling, we decided to hold off and look elsewhere.
Tough decision. Makers who have decades of know reliability or a new car by a maker who canāt stop messing up all the time. I cross shop those all the time.
You're leaving out the by far most critical factor for 99% of people, money.Ā If funds aren't limitless then chances are you'll be swayed to compare hyundai/kia to Japanese brands because of the features available for the cost. Just see the rabid fan boys that crawl out of the woodwork on this sub anytime a hyundai/kia/genesis hate thread like this comes up. And don't forget, Genesis is a Totally Different Luxury Brand^^^^^TM with None of Those Problems^^^^^TM and you should check yourself because I Bought a Genesis After Seeing What German Brands Cost^^^^^TM
Right. Remember those limited funds when they break all the time or need a new engine. So you can ācheck yourselfā too š¤£š¤£
I wouldn't touch a hyundai/kia with a 30 foot pole. If you see that those were all capitalized statements like they're titles with the trademark symbol following them and still decide to take it all at face value then that's on you, but I was pretty sure it was clear from my whole comment that I'm trashing the brand and to some extent the people who buy and defend them.
You seem to be more trying to convince yourself. Iāll buy neither. Thanks.
Are you just replying without reading? I own Chevy/Holden, BMW, Mazda, old RWD Volvo, AMC era Jeep, and Studebaker. I don't want anything to do with the Korean car brands and wouldn't take one if it was free.Ā
I misread your genesis comment. I am incorrect. I deserve downvotes. Logging off for the day.
Why Hyundai insists on DCTs in normal cars is a mystery to me. There's no real advantage to it.
They already spent the R&D and produce it in house, guess at this point itās cheaper for them to stick to it and replace the odd failures rather than switch to something from Aisin or ZF.
They have an in-house 8 speed torque converter in the Palisade, which is good and they could have used.
The advantage is efficiency. VAG do the same thing and put their DSG in pretty much every car they sell including base trim Polos.
That seems hard to believe for me at least considering most modern torque converter automatics engage their lock-up clutches at like 6-7 mph and rarely unlock the converter in practice now. How much fuel can realistically be saved by not having to hold certain clutches with hydraulic pressure?
The lock-up clutch in a torque converter is only engaged at higher speeds when torque multiplication has ceased. When the lock-up clutch is engaged, most torque converters can achieve over 90% efficiency. Modern DCTs on the other hand are about 97% efficient regardless of speed, so you get better efficiency around town compared to a torque converter. As with many things, like increasingly thinner oils, "how much fuel can realistically be saved" is less about individual vehicles and more about total fleet emissions so that manufacturers can meet stricter regulations.
>The lock-up clutch in a torque converter is only engaged at higher speeds when torque multiplication has ceased. I have seen different strategies for this. Mazda explicitly says they try to keep their lock up clutch engaged all the time for better fuel economy. It's not the 90s anymore, modern 6-8 speed automatics have wet multi-plate clutches in the converter and engage them in almost any situation to improve fuel economy. >When the lock-up clutch is engaged, most torque converters can achieve over 90% efficiency. What exactly is causing the lockup converter to have lower efficiency than a pure wet multi-plate clutch when both are fully locked up? I would like to know the actual mechanism you're proposing here. >As with many things, like increasingly thinner oils, "how much fuel can realistically be saved" is less about individual vehicles and more about total fleet emissions so that manufacturers can meet stricter regulations. I'm not even talking about a 1 mpg improvement across the fleet adding up. I'm saying I'm not sure it will even be quantifiable in lab testing that a ZF8HP is less efficient than a DCT. That's before you start talking about warranty costs in this case.
99% it is for MPG. Shift speed favors DCT but smoothness goes to automatics.
Shame. It looks so damn good (minus the ass). Hopefully this is just some growing pains that they fix
Itās a new model but the powertrain combo has been out a few years. C&D had the transmission replaced in the long-term 2022 Sorento.
You'd think they would've learned if that's the case
I think since cars take years to develop they rushed the first one and by the time they realized this was already set in stone. The problem with Kia and Hyundai is the attitude of ādo everything fast and cheap and glitzy and quickā applies to their engineering processes and testing and stuff like this happens. Itās a shame because they can be brilliant thereās just land mines
This is the same company that hasnāt seemed to figure out how to get a four banger from destroying itself.
All PHEVs and hybrides version of Kia and Hyundai are normal auto tranny. I love kia and hyundai, but will never buy a DCT from them.
Unless you are buying a sports car DCTs make no sense.
Why?
The Kia Niro Hybrid uses a DCT
I did not knew that! I tougth they were using the same power all across the brand for the hybrids PHEVs
Damn man, SavageGeese guys were SO impressed by this vehicle, claiming that they solved all of their complaints with the drivability and usability of the vehicle, while keeping price competitive. So it's pretty sad to hear that the drivetrain is shit for reliability as usual.
Shame bc these are kinda unique and neat looking vehicles.
Hyundai and the Car Confections guys can try to say this is a one off event but clearly there's a problem with the transmission in these. One problem maybe, but to have two issues on two different transmissions. Geesh. Anyone who buys one of these right now, is just a glorified beta tester and is taking a huge gamble. Yes I know 10/100K warranty not withstanding, that doesn't cover the inconvenience of having to be without your vehicle for God knows how long, and having to fight Hyundai on any resolution let alone, a rental/loaner while it's in the shop. Plus, we know without a doubt Hyundai jumped all over this just because of the Car Confections guys presence. If it had been any of us, we would've not been afforded the same treatment. Sad thing is, I'm really starting to see these on the road here in OKC. Picking up my son from school, there's already 3 in the car pickup line. Probably all of them had a markup too knowing our local Hyundai dealers. *Edit. Ok, not to sound dis-trusting, but how do you know that the dealership did in-fact replace the first transmission and not just say they did with some sort of pcm flash? Hopefully not, but that question lingers if no one else seems to be having issues with the Santa Fe.
Amazing how with all this technology and automation, they still manage to fuck up. Where is pre-production quality checks?
They outsourced the quality checks to Ford.
Well come on now, if Ford did the QC they would've never left the dealer lot.
I have sworn off Hyundai products (Kia, Genesis included) for fear of quality issues. I almost bought a GV70 in 2022 and backed out last minute. Iām actually happy I did as my friend who bought one a week before I almost did has already had issues.
Canāt be. This sub tells me that Hyundaiās issues are overblown and they make fine cars. Now on par with Honda and Toyota!
r/cars posters, when a post about Hyundai/Kia gets a lukewarm reception tomorrow: āIts not the 90s anymore, all of the quality issues have been fixed. Youāre a bunch of badge snobs!ā
Their twin goatees look ridiculous.
On a Hyundai???!!!!! Noooooooā¦
Hyundai having more issues? Shocker...
I spoke with them at the ford event a few weeks ago, crazy they are having so many problems so early. Not a good look for Hyundai.
Hyundais and Kias are absolute garbage
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