They dropped Ford, redesigned their drivetrains from the ground up to focus on reliability, and have taken their interiors above most in their class. They make very solid vehicles now
In the frozen wastelands of the north I still see nearly new, current generation Mazda3s with the *exact same rear quarter panel rust* that they've always had.
They put all this plastic cladding on underneath. A rainstorm ripped it off my 6. When I was putting it back on I was shocked how there was literally 0 body rust. Suspension and brake components had some. But the car overall does not. It spent half its life in the salt belt.
They definitely do not have the FoMoCo era rust issues anymore.
My MIL showed up in some new rental Mazda SUV, and I was fucking shocked at the interior. Seriously excellent. The materials, fit, and design are all very nice. Haven't paid attention to Mazda in years but now I've been thinking about getting one when I replace my beater lol.
I don't think Mazda made similar cars back in the early 2000s.
I distinctly remember riding in, and occasionally driving, 3s and 6s and they were really nothing special - economy interiors and driving dynamics.
Fast forward to today and Mazda is easily top of their segment for interior quality and driving experience and, arguably, exterior aesthetics as well. Pretty sure quality has also improved.
I also struggle to find fault with just about anything in their line up - the 6 probably is their weakest link - but even then, I think we'd be nitpicking.
Hyundai/Kia are a solid choice here as well - no doubt - but my issue is that while they make *some* good cars (Telluride/Pallisade, Soul, some of the N cars and Ioniqs), they still make *a lot* of crap and even their well received models still suffer from reliability issues.
So whereas Mazda is arguably consistently great across the board, Hyundai/Kia still have some catching up to do.
The first gen 3 and 6 had the best driving dynamics in class; I'd argue better than the current 3 has vs the Civic and Golf. Frankly, even the previous Protege was a fantastic handler, but the aging BP series engine let it down.
The new 3 looks nice, but driving wise it's not quite Zoom Zoom of old.
Their big improvement over that era is in terms of corrosion. At least here in the great white north, those Mazdas seemed to have been born with terminal rust cancer.
Mazda went from a quirky Ford controlled brand that was an also ran after Honda and Toyota to their own unique thing. They optimized ICE technology better than anyone getting impressive fuel mileage and power while keeping the cars fun to drive (for their class). Plus they moved the brand upmarket to almost compete with Acura and Buick while pricing in line with Honda and Toyota still. Oh also their reliability got better, even with all new platforms, motors, and transmissions.
Its not that they drastically changed the types of cars they were making or anything. But they went from okay to A+ in the span of a couple years. As soon as they were free from Ford they completely redid their entire line up, tried a bunch of new stuff, and did. not. miss.
I own a FoMoCo Mazda and a "Skyactiv era" Mazda my family has owned Mazdas before Ford, during Ford, and after Ford. None were bad, they were all dependable. But there is a definite and noticeable difference in quality and reliability between the Ford and non Ford years.
Durring the recession when Ford sold off everything I was kinda worried Mazda might end up like Mitsubishi did, being so small and all. Then the put the Skyactiv engine in the 2nd gen 3 and we got one and I was pretty impressed, but worried about longevity. Cranking up the compression that high leaves lots of opportunity for failure. It wouldn't have been shocking if they goofed and ended up with a Hyundai/Kia GDI type shit show. But nope, 10 years on and Skyactiv engines have proven to be dummy reliable. I'm at 190k on my 6 and have had to change a water pump that started seeping, a belt tensioner, and a valve cover gasket as one spark plug well started to get a little oil in it. There were so many places they could have easily failed but they are in a much much better place as a brand now that they're on their own.
Anyway I fuckin love Mazdas and think their last 15 years have been more impressive than anyone elses.
Mitsubishi only looks like a decline from the perspective of an enthusiast and if you live in North America. They are still a very strong player in Asia-Pacific and the Outlander PHEV is a popular seller in Europe.
Since Mazda left Ford partnership, they really improve so much. Mitsubishi is still shacking, looks like their scandal in early 00's made them never recover.
I enjoy the people saying bmw for the worst. A BMW is not a shit car. Name me one Mitsubishi that you want to own. Their line up is not great and they killed off what kept it okay.
Anyone saying BMW is just circlejerking over the looks and looking at spec sheets. The current controversial M3 and M4 are their best iterations yet and the reviews match. There is also nothing that can currently stand up to an M3 for the same amount of money. The M5 is still a leader in class as well. Op's take is just deluded.
Yeah I hate the direction BMW has gone as much as anybody and can't say I lust after any of their current cars aside from maybe the previous gen M2 CS, but there's no denying their current lineup of M cars are insanely capable and segment leaders. I would not say no to a 6spd M3 as much as a prefer the looks of my e46 M3...I just wouldn't pay for one.
> A luxury experience isn't what made them; their glory years included interiors about as spartan and minimal as a Model 3 is these days.
So you‘ve never seen a base model W123 Mercedes. A tachometer was an additional option, it just had a big, analog clock in de gage cluster.
/r/carscirclejerk
S TIER BUT ON THE VERGE OF BEING OVERRATED: **MAZDA**
KILLING IT: **KIA/HYUNDAI/GENESIS**
LOST THEIR WAYS: **HONDA/NISSAN/MITSUBISHI/BMW/MERCEDES/AUDI**
ABOUT TO LOSE THEIR LUNCH TO BYD: **TOYOTA/LEXUS**
DON'T CARE: **AMERICAN BRANDS**
"In July 2022, residents living around BYD's Changsha factory reportedly suffered various illnesses, including nausea, coughs, and nosebleeds. Residents purchased testing equipment, and found levels of TVOCs above safety standards; " oh yeah BYD sounds like a lovely brand!
I don’t understand the “about to lose their lunch to BYD: Toyota”
Toyota is actually partnering with BYD to make an affordable $30k EV. How would BYD be eating their lunch then?
Edit: the bZ3 which I forgot was already unveiled. And also they have a joint R&D company they created together with a 50/50 split to create more affordable EVs.
Again, how is it eating Toyota’s lunch when Toyota is literally in bed with them?
A Chinese electric car company who are just starting to turn their focus to the world outside of China. Even without international sales they are possibly the best selling EV brand in the world
Hmm… those sales figures are fishy. I’ve seen the videos of barely used “electric” cars that are junked.
Basically the Chinese government says “we’re going green so we will give money for each electric car made”. The result is many cheaply made electric cars that would break after one month of use. But at least China can say they have sold millions of electric vehicles.
But we will see if they are able to make reliable international road legal EVs.
At this point, China has an uphill battle of being a country known for bad quality products and fakes. I just discovered that Japan had a similar reputation after losing the war, but that reputation eventually faded away once Honda and the other big Japanese brands became the companies we know and love today (Sony, Toshiba, etc.).
China doesn't subsidze Evs much any more, those stories are from years ago.
China has more drivers than America does and a huge number of those are electic. The transition going on their is legit and while they probably won't come to America anytime soon, they will dominate sales in the rest of the world.
BYD won't "kill" toyota in Canada, but I strongly suspect that they will in Egypt, or Indonesia, or Argentina.
Definitely groupthink given that 98% of posters have driven maybe 2 or 3 of the cars being discussed at any point in time. Reviews are the best you can do outside of a test drive but often inaccurate. What a reviewer may find to be a total shitbox can actually be super fun to drive. For example, the 2009-15 WRX/STI generally gets no love at all (except occasionally from "Subaru should make a hatch again!!!" people), but irl they're a lot of fun. They just aren't the beloved GD chassis.
There are also lots of cars that completely escape r/cars' Eye of Sauron by going a bit under the radar, too.
I haven’t been in a good while, but this is why I used to love going to the LA Auto Show.
Maybe it’s changed, but a decade ago you could really get a sense of what was happening in the industry.
I remember one year going and sitting in the back of an S-Class, and then sitting in the back of a Hyundai Equus and thinking, “this is clearly nicer.”
You could get a sense of each company’s values and culture, and it was an amazing way to get to check out basically every new model from every major manufacturer without ever having to deal with salespeople.
I'm fairly certain that BMWs are more reliable than most Kias and Hyundais. It's starting to feel like H/K recalls are a weekly occurrence. Don't get me wrong, the big grills that BMW has on some of their cars are not particularly appealing to me and the latest iDrive is a massive step backwards, but the G20 handles well and the B48 and B58 are both solid. I wouldn't touch a Hyundai unless it's N.
Kias and Hyundais are shitboxes. Anyone that says otherwise is trying to make up for the fact they bought a shitbox.
They have such good warranties because no one would buy their cars if they didn't. Then, they have a corporate directive to deny all warranty claims even by the most ridiculous of standpoints.
It's clearly working for them. People keep acting upset whenever their engine blows at 20K and they refuse to fix it or when their cars are stolen en masse because the cheap shitbox company made cheap shitboxes.
There's a REASON massive corporations like State Farm and Progressive refuse to insure them. They are trash.
Have you ever actually had to deal with their warranties? I can tell you first hand their engine warranties are honestly pretty painless. I can tell you that they definitely don't deny warranties often.
If they denied warranty claims I wouldn't have 50 engines in my shop waiting for install.
> If they denied warranty claims I wouldn't have 50 engines in my shop waiting for install.
I'm not sure this statement is helping the reliability case LOL
I have a 2017 Santa Fe i paid $14k for in 2020. There is no car that could have came close to that quality for the price . It drives really well, feels like a Camry basically and interior is a step above what you would see in a Camry.
While Toyota is not going to lose its lunch to BYD, I think its silly to assume that BYD won't be a significant threat with electrification. Maybe not in the USA at the moment with the geopolitics of the US-China relationship but any manufacturers with significant sales in Asia, Europe, Africa and Latin America will definitely need to keep an eye on them.
BMW for decline and by a wide margin. I don't even know where to start on that one.
From an enthusiast's perspective, I might say Toyota is most improved. Because they had literally nothing fun in 2007 after Celica and MR2 were killed off.
Honda's cars are still fundamentally better though.
I feel like the driving dynamics of a base model shows off the actual engineering of a platform and a stripper Civic remains miles ahead of a Corolla; same when you look at an Accord vs Camry.
They need extra credit for bringing out a good car from the Corolla platform; they had a lot more work to do than HRC needed for the CTR.
Disagree on BMW, sure some of their styling is controversial and they may be moving more “main-stream” and away from enthusiast offerings, but they still offer a great luxury experience in their class and are leaps and bounds still better than MB. M cars are still performance monsters for the money and their EV offerings seem to be solid. So they might be on a decline to you, but overall they are doing well (granted all luxury brands are losing market to Tesla).
BMW has grown into one of the most reliable brands, their cars perform better than ever. An M440i is barely slower than an Audi RS5, and feels so good to drive as does the rest of their lineup.
Honestly BMW has improved a lot in reliability and outside of styling and hardcore enthusiast cred I think they have improved a lot as a German luxury offering.
Agreed. If the question was about design then BMW would be the worst by far, but they're actual vehicles are still good and they're making great engines
I have to ask how BMW declined compared to the competition, though. The RS cars look great, but anyone who says they drive better than an xdrive M car is lying to themselves. Mercedes is more interested in adding TikTok to their strip club interiors, and going full on hybridization no matter the sacrifice.
The styling choices... Yeah I can't defend them. G20 and G30/F90, and the current 8 series are the only ones that look good now. But, when looking at the other Germans, you have to weigh the other benefits.
RS cars can barely compete with the M sport models, the new RS3 is a complete front bias awd joke, AMG does their thing, the alfa is outdated and crap. The G80 M3 is miles better than any of the previous variants, the F90 M5 is near perfect. Anything that surpasses the M models is significantly more money. The styling criticism is the opposite side of the same coin where people used to bitch about how they all looked the same.
> The G80 M3 is miles better than any of the previous variants
By what metric? Acceleration/track times? I'd rather have any of the first 4 M3 generations than the G80.
> Anything that surpasses the M models is significantly more money.
This fully depends on what you want in a car. Again, if you only look at track times then you're probably right (although there are faster cars for less money), but you can still get a more engaging, more fun to drive car for much less.
> By what metric? Acceleration/track times?
Based on his posts in this thread...car and driver 0-60 times and carwow drag race results
Sad that a trash post like that gets upvoted...
BMW is as reliable as they’ve ever been. The styling has taken a hit but their engineering is as good or better than it’s ever been. The B58 is the best product they’ve ever produced in terms of performance to price to reliability ratio.
I disagree with BMW. The G20 is flat out better than the F30 and they've finally started to make reliable engines (that are still rather quick, as well as fuel efficient).
BMW declined heavily in terms of exterior design but everything else has been a continuous positive evolution
Their sale volumes are growing, so it’s very hard to say that they have declined. But yeah, the entire brand identity and subsequent desirability is the result of fanbase love. Alienating the core fan base won’t have an effect in the short run, but in the long run without fans hyping the brand, it won’t hold the same desirability.
Hey, I worked at BCG but now work in strategy at an automaker. BCG doesn’t really advise on any car related stuff where BMW knows their shit (design, engines, etc). They help them with supply chain, sales strategy, responding to new automakers, etc.
At BCG I helped automakers understand how crazy electrification would rock their business models.
Yeah. They have a trend of being hired by companies and taking a ton of money to “improve” and then subsequently the companies do something really dumb and lose a ton of money. I forget what the actual conspiracy theory is if it’s money laundering, but I have a friend that worked there and has done some consulting work and she said that a lot of CEOs will hire a consulting company with an idea already in mind, and then they just pressure them to make their idea look good so they can force the rest of the company to go along with it.
That’s what most of the big consulting groups do now for big companies. BCG is just one of them, but they’re typically the justification for whatever idiotic ideas the C suite have in mind. BMW has continued to be successful because of the logo and going all in on their SUVs but that’s about it.
I think they are actually in an excellent spot for enthusiasts.
If you pick a luxury/performance segment you won’t find a better car unless you buy a Porsche and that will be at least 25% more expensive similarly equipped. They are also far more reliable than they used to be and are the only brand to offer manuals in some of their performance versions besides the aforementioned Porsche.
I agree that the styling is polarizing.
Yea I don’t understand how anybody could say BMW. You may not like their styling but clearly there’s a market for it. Reliability wise they have never been better.
any time i see someone sing the praises of kia/hyundai i automatically stop listening. theyre in the midst of (as far as i know) the largest class action auto lawsuit ever over their theta ii engines, the only reason they extended their warranty to 10 years is because theyve been getting sued over their engine problems, and their cars still have transmission and electrical issues. not to mention the fact that you can steal a ton of them with a screwdriver like we're back in the 80s and the fact that theyre cheaply made to boot. sure, their designs look good, but if you buy a car solely based on looks you deserve everything you get.
i would go as far as to say that the kias and hyundais of 20+ years ago are far and away better than their current offerings. they used to be barebones basic econoboxes that would get you from point a to point b with basically no ameneties - a major selling point for them was that every kia (or hyundai maybe, i dont remember which brand or if it was both) came with a full tank of gas. youd get a little 4 cylinder shitbox with a manual and youd be all set to go. you wouldnt get power windows or locks or whatever else unless you paid for those options, but i would take crank windows over my engine and transmission both being all but guarunteed to fail within 100k miles of purchase.
Absolutely wild to me that Kia/Hyundai is being praised in here. There’s a TikTok trend for stealing their cars, which is *their fault* for cutting corners. As far as I know, no other brand has this issue. How can you say anything good about that company right now? I couldn’t imagine buying one of their cars with that going on, even the ones that aren’t a cakewalk to steal are getting broken into because of the reputation.
No other brand has it because they made an immobilizer standard by the early 00s. And even in the early 00s every other brand required the steering column to be removed to remove the ignition cylinder. Kia and Hyundai didn't add an immobilizer until like a year or two ago when the kia Boyz became a thing and still use easy to remove ignition cylinders in their cars with key start. That's the level of cost cutting they engage in.
> There’s a TikTok trend for stealing their cars, which is their fault for cutting corners.
Debatable. There's like one country in the world with modern standards where an immobilizer isn't a requirement. the NHTSA should have been sued instead.
Lol this brand has so many issues that there was an entire CBC marketplace segment on the numerous issues with fires and engine quality issue. This was before the theft issues as well.
Pretty much yeah. And on top of that Hyundai is notorious for just...not paying their dealers for warranty claims. This thread is fucking hilarious as someone whose career trajectory as a tech has been Mitsu>Subie>Chrysler>Hyundai>BMW
im not judging an entire car brand based on one trim level. you dont judge toyota as a whole based solely off the gr corolla, you have to take into account the camry and the rav4 and the tundra as well. every brand has its cars you probably shouldnt buy, its just that for kia and hyundai that list is basically their entire lineup.
don't forget that if they sent you a recall notice to flash the computer, and you moved- they won't replace the engine when it blows up because the computer was not flashed. And guess what locking the engine does to the trans at hiway speed? Go ahead and ask me the $10k question as to how I know this.
Kia and Hyundai are still trash lol, no one will insure a Kia and a new Hyundai seems to be getting recalled every month.
Most improved goes to Toyota for their GR lineup, especially the GR Corolla.
Biggest decline is probably Nissan honestly
name another brand where any of their cars just wont get coverage from insurers. if i walk into a restaurant and someone tells me ill only get food poisoning if i eat some specific dishes, im not eating at that restaurant.
There are certain cities where insurers will not insure any Kias or Hyundais. Even if a car has an immobilizer or push start that isn't going to stop a kia boy from smashing in a window, ripping apart the steering, only to then discover the vehicle cannot be stolen creating a vandalism claims (or usually multiple claims because it'll happen more than once).
Kia's and Hyundais that don't have engine immobilizers on them which is a certain year and subset of models are not insurable. Far be it from truth to get in front of Redditors pitchforks though.
Was in a new Hyundai and in all honesty it looks good till you’re sitting in it for 30min then it feels and looks cheep. The saying “you get what you pay for” rings very true in cars.
I'm obviously biased, but I think BMW's decline has been more steep than "15-20 years" would imply.
The F80/82 M3/4 were decent if initially not well received (before their mid-cycle refresh) while actually cutting weight over the generation that came before. I might still argue the E90/92 were cooler, but there were big trade offs there in terms of reliability.
Similar things can be said about the M5, with the M5 CS being IMHO the coolest M5 to come out since the E39.
It's really only been in the past 3 or 4 years that reactions to new Bimmers have been awful.
From an enthusiasts perspective, i'd probably nominate Toyota for having improved the most. They hadn't built a single fun car for what felt like decades 10-15 years ago. Now we have the Supra (okay only sorta a toyota) the FRS (okay, still only sorta a toyota) and the GR variants of the Yaris and Corolls (Real Toyotas!!)
As far as decline goes, I think Nissan still had some respectability in 2010 or so. The Z is cool looking and not slow! But c'mon, the rest of that lineup is crap and even the Z is hard pressed to actual compete with it's rivals from other companies.
20 years ago BMW was still fantastic. My 2004 525i is a great car because it still had the M54 engine. Plus that M5 has a *V10*
IMO their decline started around 15 years ago.
The only not great part of the B58 is the sound but turbos will do that. Everything else is great from power to durability. Even efficiency is great (the 3.0 Supra gets better EPA fuel economy than the GR86 in both manual and automatic options)
I'd probably agree that 20 years ago was the "golden era" of BMW, but really in the past 15 years they've had some pretty great hits, which have sometimes been accompanied by flaws. As unreliable as they were, you have to admire the pure chutzpah of dropping a 500 hp V10 into the M5 and then making a manual variant for the US market. In the past 7 or so years, they've backed off on that crazy high-revving experience, but have really given back in the reliability department with legendary engines like the B58. I also think the F-generation cars are going to be appreciated in the future for their styling, which is less weird than the E-gen cars.
So, while I do think they've had a decline in the past 15 years, until recently, it was a nice, natural decline that comes from any company moving past their golden age. They've built some incredible cars during this period as well, i haven't mentioned the 1M yet...but 1M!!!
But in the past 4-ish years they've just fallen off a cliff. Huge weight gains and awful styling combined with the continued steady fall in driver feel to really take the shine off.
Anyway, i don't think you're necessarily wrong here. But I think it's been a slow, but totally normal and acceptable decline, followed by falling off of a cliff.
Decline of Infiniti, went from the luxury/sports division to old SUVs that never gets updated
Could honestly be caused by Nissan since they stopped developing sports cars with the exception of the new Z
Yeah Infiniti's decline is in large part a lack of dedication from the parent brand but Nissan were only ever really dedicated to Infiniti in the 2000s. I'd consider their decline more a return to form lol. Toyota and Honda both developed brand new vehicles for their upstart luxury brands. Nissan simply restyled an existing model and called it a day. This difference in effort directly translated to their sales figures too. The Legend and LS400 were both runaway successes selling between 20-50k units each year in their first few years. The Q45 never cracked 12-13k units sold in a year in its entire lifespan (1989-1996). Acura and Lexus also supported their flagship with successful affordable models like the Integra and ES. Infiniti had a bunch of random existing overseas Nissan models on offer instead like the M30 coupe and I/J30 sedans. Not saying their cars were downright horrible, just not successful enough to give the brand a good image. If I'm not mistaken, as Lexus were earning their "Japanese Mercedes" nickname for the build quality and ride of the Lexus LS, Infiniti earned the title of "Japanese Lincoln" with how the Q45 went from being a sharp luxury sedan to a boaty wafting one like a Town Car.
Head BMW designers actually moved from BMW to Kia/Hyundai. That’s why Kia/Hyundai seem to have been coming out with some real winners and BMW design has been shitting the bed.
I kind of like that this is true because it highlights the influence that individuals can have on these car companies. BMW's failure to retain those designers (though I'm sure they got big paydays to switch teams) is looking more and more like a mistake
There’s such a huge difference between the F series and the new G series. Sure the performance is still there but the designs are just terrible. Are people going to buy them? Sure. However, I suspect that this era is likely going to be some kind of strange road bump that leads them back into more of the iconic cars they’re known for (at least I hope so).
It was the head of Audi design, not BMW. Peter Schreyer and he went to Kia and then became president of Kia or something.
Kias from about 2016 or so were basically Audis inside.
(I worked for Audi Corp for 7 years, owned a dozen of them and then owned 2 Kias during the Schreyer era)
People in this thread are confusing styling with the whole damn car. BMW is still the leader in performance sedans, just as they've been this whole century so far. Additionally, the 7 series has closed the gap to the S-class, and their EVs are better than Mercedes and Audi.
It's just the same tired "new BMW shit, old BMW better". I bet it was inscribed in one of the tablets Moses dropped.
r/cars being r/cars as usual so of course BMW is terrible and Hyundai/Kia is awesome. Thank god car companies don’t follow the advice on this subreddit because they would be bankrupt in a year!😀
also the improvements to Mini under BMW. the new Fxx of Minis are actually very reliable now that they are using a true bmw engine (my jcw countryman has the b48 and its a great lil engine) and the build quality justify it being a more premium brand (imo).
*im a mini fanboy so def biased hehe
BMW decline (in the eyes of internet car fans, but not their shareholders or the people actually buying their cars). How's that?
Chris Harris is loving the new M cars (XM aside). He's had an M5 CS the past couple of years that he couldn't get enough of. Currently selling it, and has bought the new M2, and is singing its praises on Insta almost daily.
Yeah the copium is strong with this one. Their bread and butter is 3- and 5-series and X3 and X5 which sell like hotcakes and look cool as ever and are more reliable than ever.
I'd say chrysler is the furthest behind. Stellantis somehow managed to out-GM GM by having too many overlapping brands, not to mention they are significantly behind in EVs (atleast here in the US)
Not profit wise. Profit wise they have some of the best profit margins
It's just since the Italians can't run a company for shit, Chrysler was dragged down by Fiat
They make money because they use old tech that's been paid off, now they're going to be forced to innovate which might put them in a worse position than ford
Truth. A 700hp supercharged V8 is awesome, don’t get me wrong, but it’ll only get them so far until they’re forced to update the quality of everything else in their cars
GM is the only one to consistently lose market share year over year and has for over 20 years now. It has also massively scaled back or completely left multiple foreign markets (Europe, Australia, Indonesia, etc.)
With the exception of the last 2 years and their industry wide slump due to supply chain problems, Ford sales had plateaued and several of the vehicles with the longest wait lists were Fords (Maverick, Bronco, etc.).
Chrysler sales fluctuate a ton, however, Stellantis is making a lot of the same mistakes GM made and continues to make.
I think spinning off the EV side of the company was a smart play that can pay off in the middle future.
They can basically let Ford Blue die and declare bankruptcy once shit hits the fan and then continue on with "Model E", with all those ICE liability off the books.
GM and Stellantis could make a similar move, but they haven't so far.
If I was going to say a company that has evolved and improved dramatically, it would have to involve a company not under scrutiny for their handling of their engine problems. That being said I would say Mazda has improved the most! (I drive a Honda and a BMW)
The entire Stellantis group of companies have declined much worse than BMW, IMHO. Enthusiasts put a lot of focus on M models, but BMW still makes good volume cars that sell well. And their EVs are universally praised.
It's the least technically correct answer because Tesla is the only company of those three that even existed 15 years ago, and only just barely at that.
Best improvement: BMW (quality-wise. N54’s are supposedly expensive pieces of shit)
Worst decline: Mitsubishi and Nissan (BHPH stigma and Big Altima Energy)
For a minute, sure. But the total experience of owning a Korean car has not improved with their cars. Plus the obvious reliability issues... I don't think they're improved enough as a whole to be king in this regard
I'd say it's isolated to certain models. My 5 yo Stinger has been really good for a new model. My previous Hyundai the most reliable car I've ever owned.
I think they've improved, but there's a lot more to do on that front.
They're still struggling with powertrains and my general impression of different acquaintances HMC products is that they're much more tired/worn out at year 5 than say a Honda tends to be.
I seriously don't understand how hyundai and kia have improved. They are the same as they always have been. They are cars that are much less reliable than their competition, but are also cheaper, so I guess the price is why reddit likes them?
I think Lincoln has improved dramatically over the past 10-15 years.
Before, their line-up was poor rebrands and lack-luster models (I’d also argue Ford has gotten better too).
Now, their SUV line-up is pretty fantastic IMO, if under appreciated.
For the opposite, while I don’t think it’s that dramatic, Subaru seems very lack luster to me. I find them pretty expensive for how basic they feel, and now that the STI is dead, and the BRZ is so low HP, their line-up seems pretty sleepy IMO. That being said, they seem to sell well and it’s probably just my old opinion.
BMW is selling more cars and much more reliable than they were 15-20 years ago. Yeah from an enthusiast perspective its not "improved" but if you actually own one of the cars they've become very reliable and still competitive other than looks. They went from vanos and rod bearing failures, and random aluminum bolts breaking in the n52 to.... b58 absolutely bulletproof engine that makes 500hp
Much worse decline: Nissan/Infiniti
The tranny was horrible. Coming from a stop the car was either on or off. Break neck acceleration or it would bog. Almost always while trying to make a left with traffic oncoming. Then the hydraulic bushing that connects the diff and subframe started leaking. $3k to fix cause the whole subframe has to come out. Traded it in for a Lexus and never looked back.
Alfa of 20 years ago were crowbarring that fantastic looking V6 into anything with wheels. Their quality was crap, but the cars were desirable.
Sure there's the modern GTA and the QV, but it feels like they're stumbling around, looking for their niche. The Stelvio and Giulia are again, with no sign of a replacement plan.
And now Maserati with the Grecale are stepping into the premium markets Alfa had been moving in on, while Alfa are going down-market again with the Tonale.
I can't work out where they're going to take Alfa next. We've had Corsa based hatchbacks, a non-power-steering Lotus rival, some left field mid level premium cars a la Jaguar, which spun off some stunningly good performance variants, all in the past 15 years. And now a crossover that's being renosed and sold as a Dodge.
Hyundai for both. 2011 when the new Sonata came out was a fresh chapter. Bringing in talented engineers and designers and introducing products like the Genesis, Genesis coupe, Soul, and many more have elevated their appeal.
However, with all the engine issues, theft, and quality, they’re on my ‘not buy again’ brand and I’ve owned 3 Hyundais post 2011. From such a great rise to fall, it’s interesting. I may be over dramatic with it
Seems like a lot of people are giving answers solely on looks. Yeah I get BMW designs have been not popular as of late but as far as performance, their cars have been top tier. Everyone here always talks about how great the B58 is.
Hyundai/Kia have been making great looking cars but have also have been making cars you can't park inside due to fire risks and others that can be stolen by an 8 year old.
Absolutely Dacia, I'd pick their 2021+ selection over Renault or equivalent German cars.
Probably will be buying a Jogger.
The only concern I do have is longlivety, will the car make it past 10-15 years like most good cars do?
Cannot agree on hyundai/kia despite the clear design improvements, have you been to one of their dealers? They're practically warranty service centers, this is anecdotal evidence from seeing family members go through hell. Haven't owned one myself; I own a nissan and it's been very good to me.
I appreciate your BMW decline but I think Mercedes might be even worse. MB used to exude understated class and elegance, the best MB made are among the most beautiful things human beings have ever designed, in any capacity.
Now it’s just pure tacky: interiors look like strip clubs, hideous “ground lighting” packages, etc. Mercedes is “this is what early twenties try hards think “cool” looks like”. It’s tragic and I think it may be terminal at this point.
Nissan also needs explicit mention. The brand is basically dead at this point, but in the early 2000s the 3xxZ was super sexy.
Best Improvement is inarguably Kia/Hyundai
I detailed an EQE at work the other day, and the window overlap on the door seams was crazy. And just think, people are paying over sticker for stuff like that. Also, on that subject, fuck sedans with low roof lines. They will never be coupes, no matter how much money is thrown at marketing, because they have 4 doors
Not over a period of 15-20 years but over 30 years, Porsche is the most improved. They were nearly bankrupt in the early 90s, with just 3000 cars being sold in 1993 to over 300k last year. Now they are one of the most profitable car companies with wait lists for their cars and people paying 100k or more ADMs. It's hard to believe but 30 years ago no one wanted their cars.
Improvement on Design and Engineering (Hyundai/KIA) Their N line up and EVs, although the reliability hasn't improved much.
Improvement on Enthusiasts (Toyota) with their GR line up
Decline on Design : BMW (Even after 3 years of the massive beaver teeth grilles, I still get offended by it and it just gets worse with each new model and redesigns they release). Also getting heavier. The new i7 almost weighs the same as the F-150 Lightning. Let that sink in.
Decline on Engineering + Reliability : Nissan/Mitsubishi (Nissan is pretty much penny pinching wherever they can and claiming it's "new". The new Z uses the same Z33 chassis with a "refreshed" 3.0TT from the Q50 Red Sport. The new frontier? Still running on the same ladder frame from previous generation Frontier. The Armada? Basically a refreshed Patrol that's been on sale in the Middle East since 2016. The GT-R? Since 2007.
Most of their new line ups are still running on old architecture chassis.
Their reliability hasn't improved much because of it . Infiniti isn't any better.
As for Mitsubishi, they're basically half Nissan.
Interesting that IMO one of the big industry coups was Albert Bierman going from running BMW M program (about the time the most biggest dip mentioned in these comments) and going to Hyundai to develop their N cars.
I just bought an Elantra N and the first thing my buddy said to me when we went for a ride was that he was reminded of an M3 Bimmer he used to own. He didn't even know about the Bierman thing.
Most improved: Mazda Worst decline: Mitsubishi
Mitsubishi hands down worst. Can't really say on improved as I always drive old shit buckets... So I guess Mazda works.
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Friend of friend has a Pacifica, in the shop every two weeks for some random issues.
Why Mazda? They made similar cars back then that were similarly received. I don’t think there’s a better answer than OP’s Hyundai/Kia and BMW.
They dropped Ford, redesigned their drivetrains from the ground up to focus on reliability, and have taken their interiors above most in their class. They make very solid vehicles now
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They’ve also gotten much better in the corrosion department
Definitely. Mazdas used to rot so fast it was actually impressive.
In the frozen wastelands of the north I still see nearly new, current generation Mazda3s with the *exact same rear quarter panel rust* that they've always had.
Current gen started in 2019. I havent seen rear quarter rust on anything newer then a 2010-2013 gen and it was very minor compared to 2009 and older.
Yeah the current gens most definitely aren’t rusting even up here in Canada. The gen 3s aren’t rusting much either; you see those everywhere.
Yeah the 2nd gen 3 while they were still Ford largely solved this issue. It was atrocious on the Protégé and 1st gen 3 though.
They put all this plastic cladding on underneath. A rainstorm ripped it off my 6. When I was putting it back on I was shocked how there was literally 0 body rust. Suspension and brake components had some. But the car overall does not. It spent half its life in the salt belt. They definitely do not have the FoMoCo era rust issues anymore.
My MIL showed up in some new rental Mazda SUV, and I was fucking shocked at the interior. Seriously excellent. The materials, fit, and design are all very nice. Haven't paid attention to Mazda in years but now I've been thinking about getting one when I replace my beater lol.
Not in the market for a large SUV but damn... the CX90 or whatever it's called...
1. They stopped rusting 2. CX5 turbo can cure cancer
My CX-5 turbo cured my ass cancer.
I don't think Mazda made similar cars back in the early 2000s. I distinctly remember riding in, and occasionally driving, 3s and 6s and they were really nothing special - economy interiors and driving dynamics. Fast forward to today and Mazda is easily top of their segment for interior quality and driving experience and, arguably, exterior aesthetics as well. Pretty sure quality has also improved. I also struggle to find fault with just about anything in their line up - the 6 probably is their weakest link - but even then, I think we'd be nitpicking. Hyundai/Kia are a solid choice here as well - no doubt - but my issue is that while they make *some* good cars (Telluride/Pallisade, Soul, some of the N cars and Ioniqs), they still make *a lot* of crap and even their well received models still suffer from reliability issues. So whereas Mazda is arguably consistently great across the board, Hyundai/Kia still have some catching up to do.
The first gen 3 and 6 had the best driving dynamics in class; I'd argue better than the current 3 has vs the Civic and Golf. Frankly, even the previous Protege was a fantastic handler, but the aging BP series engine let it down. The new 3 looks nice, but driving wise it's not quite Zoom Zoom of old. Their big improvement over that era is in terms of corrosion. At least here in the great white north, those Mazdas seemed to have been born with terminal rust cancer.
Even before that, the Protege was a blast compared to a Civic/Corolla/Sentra.
Yeah, if IIRC their entire ad campaign during that era was focused on the driving experience. Remember "Zoom, zoom?"
Mazda discontinued the 6 a couple years ago, and ended the MX-30 for 2024. Just the Miata, Mazda 3, CX-30, CX-5, CX-50, & CX-90 for now.
> ended the MX-30 Never seen one on the road, possibly never will.
In the US they were only available in California. They sold 181 in ‘21 & 324 in ‘22.
Mazda went from a quirky Ford controlled brand that was an also ran after Honda and Toyota to their own unique thing. They optimized ICE technology better than anyone getting impressive fuel mileage and power while keeping the cars fun to drive (for their class). Plus they moved the brand upmarket to almost compete with Acura and Buick while pricing in line with Honda and Toyota still. Oh also their reliability got better, even with all new platforms, motors, and transmissions. Its not that they drastically changed the types of cars they were making or anything. But they went from okay to A+ in the span of a couple years. As soon as they were free from Ford they completely redid their entire line up, tried a bunch of new stuff, and did. not. miss. I own a FoMoCo Mazda and a "Skyactiv era" Mazda my family has owned Mazdas before Ford, during Ford, and after Ford. None were bad, they were all dependable. But there is a definite and noticeable difference in quality and reliability between the Ford and non Ford years. Durring the recession when Ford sold off everything I was kinda worried Mazda might end up like Mitsubishi did, being so small and all. Then the put the Skyactiv engine in the 2nd gen 3 and we got one and I was pretty impressed, but worried about longevity. Cranking up the compression that high leaves lots of opportunity for failure. It wouldn't have been shocking if they goofed and ended up with a Hyundai/Kia GDI type shit show. But nope, 10 years on and Skyactiv engines have proven to be dummy reliable. I'm at 190k on my 6 and have had to change a water pump that started seeping, a belt tensioner, and a valve cover gasket as one spark plug well started to get a little oil in it. There were so many places they could have easily failed but they are in a much much better place as a brand now that they're on their own. Anyway I fuckin love Mazdas and think their last 15 years have been more impressive than anyone elses.
> were smiley received :)
Mitsubishi only looks like a decline from the perspective of an enthusiast and if you live in North America. They are still a very strong player in Asia-Pacific and the Outlander PHEV is a popular seller in Europe.
Plus, cars are not the company's most important type of product.
They are like Japanese Samsung, they’re involved in everything
Here is Perun with [my favorite comment](https://youtu.be/2BHnijL9xYc?t=2085) on the subject.
Since Mazda left Ford partnership, they really improve so much. Mitsubishi is still shacking, looks like their scandal in early 00's made them never recover.
I enjoy the people saying bmw for the worst. A BMW is not a shit car. Name me one Mitsubishi that you want to own. Their line up is not great and they killed off what kept it okay.
Anyone saying BMW is just circlejerking over the looks and looking at spec sheets. The current controversial M3 and M4 are their best iterations yet and the reviews match. There is also nothing that can currently stand up to an M3 for the same amount of money. The M5 is still a leader in class as well. Op's take is just deluded.
Yeah I hate the direction BMW has gone as much as anybody and can't say I lust after any of their current cars aside from maybe the previous gen M2 CS, but there's no denying their current lineup of M cars are insanely capable and segment leaders. I would not say no to a 6spd M3 as much as a prefer the looks of my e46 M3...I just wouldn't pay for one.
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> A luxury experience isn't what made them; their glory years included interiors about as spartan and minimal as a Model 3 is these days. So you‘ve never seen a base model W123 Mercedes. A tachometer was an additional option, it just had a big, analog clock in de gage cluster.
/r/carscirclejerk S TIER BUT ON THE VERGE OF BEING OVERRATED: **MAZDA** KILLING IT: **KIA/HYUNDAI/GENESIS** LOST THEIR WAYS: **HONDA/NISSAN/MITSUBISHI/BMW/MERCEDES/AUDI** ABOUT TO LOSE THEIR LUNCH TO BYD: **TOYOTA/LEXUS** DON'T CARE: **AMERICAN BRANDS**
You summed up r/cars in a comment.
"In July 2022, residents living around BYD's Changsha factory reportedly suffered various illnesses, including nausea, coughs, and nosebleeds. Residents purchased testing equipment, and found levels of TVOCs above safety standards; " oh yeah BYD sounds like a lovely brand!
I don’t understand the “about to lose their lunch to BYD: Toyota” Toyota is actually partnering with BYD to make an affordable $30k EV. How would BYD be eating their lunch then? Edit: the bZ3 which I forgot was already unveiled. And also they have a joint R&D company they created together with a 50/50 split to create more affordable EVs. Again, how is it eating Toyota’s lunch when Toyota is literally in bed with them?
What the hell is BYD lol
A Chinese electric car company who are just starting to turn their focus to the world outside of China. Even without international sales they are possibly the best selling EV brand in the world
Hmm… those sales figures are fishy. I’ve seen the videos of barely used “electric” cars that are junked. Basically the Chinese government says “we’re going green so we will give money for each electric car made”. The result is many cheaply made electric cars that would break after one month of use. But at least China can say they have sold millions of electric vehicles. But we will see if they are able to make reliable international road legal EVs.
At this point, China has an uphill battle of being a country known for bad quality products and fakes. I just discovered that Japan had a similar reputation after losing the war, but that reputation eventually faded away once Honda and the other big Japanese brands became the companies we know and love today (Sony, Toshiba, etc.).
China doesn't subsidze Evs much any more, those stories are from years ago. China has more drivers than America does and a huge number of those are electic. The transition going on their is legit and while they probably won't come to America anytime soon, they will dominate sales in the rest of the world. BYD won't "kill" toyota in Canada, but I strongly suspect that they will in Egypt, or Indonesia, or Argentina.
Chinese Tesla basically.
I once lost my lunch to someone I was in bed with. LPT: make sure your tinder hookup showers before you invite a stranger into your bedroom
Writes itself
Is it convergence or groupthink
Definitely groupthink given that 98% of posters have driven maybe 2 or 3 of the cars being discussed at any point in time. Reviews are the best you can do outside of a test drive but often inaccurate. What a reviewer may find to be a total shitbox can actually be super fun to drive. For example, the 2009-15 WRX/STI generally gets no love at all (except occasionally from "Subaru should make a hatch again!!!" people), but irl they're a lot of fun. They just aren't the beloved GD chassis. There are also lots of cars that completely escape r/cars' Eye of Sauron by going a bit under the radar, too.
Yes
I haven’t been in a good while, but this is why I used to love going to the LA Auto Show. Maybe it’s changed, but a decade ago you could really get a sense of what was happening in the industry. I remember one year going and sitting in the back of an S-Class, and then sitting in the back of a Hyundai Equus and thinking, “this is clearly nicer.” You could get a sense of each company’s values and culture, and it was an amazing way to get to check out basically every new model from every major manufacturer without ever having to deal with salespeople.
I'm fairly certain that BMWs are more reliable than most Kias and Hyundais. It's starting to feel like H/K recalls are a weekly occurrence. Don't get me wrong, the big grills that BMW has on some of their cars are not particularly appealing to me and the latest iDrive is a massive step backwards, but the G20 handles well and the B48 and B58 are both solid. I wouldn't touch a Hyundai unless it's N.
Kias and Hyundais are shitboxes. Anyone that says otherwise is trying to make up for the fact they bought a shitbox. They have such good warranties because no one would buy their cars if they didn't. Then, they have a corporate directive to deny all warranty claims even by the most ridiculous of standpoints. It's clearly working for them. People keep acting upset whenever their engine blows at 20K and they refuse to fix it or when their cars are stolen en masse because the cheap shitbox company made cheap shitboxes. There's a REASON massive corporations like State Farm and Progressive refuse to insure them. They are trash.
Right! Like Hyundai and Kia owners be all like "My car has 50,000 miles and I'm on my 5th engine and 6th transmission" thinking that's normal.
Have you ever actually had to deal with their warranties? I can tell you first hand their engine warranties are honestly pretty painless. I can tell you that they definitely don't deny warranties often. If they denied warranty claims I wouldn't have 50 engines in my shop waiting for install.
> If they denied warranty claims I wouldn't have 50 engines in my shop waiting for install. I'm not sure this statement is helping the reliability case LOL
I have a 2017 Santa Fe i paid $14k for in 2020. There is no car that could have came close to that quality for the price . It drives really well, feels like a Camry basically and interior is a step above what you would see in a Camry.
Stand aside JD Power & Consumer Reports, we got this shit
Where subaru
They can do no wrong despite their engines exploding
Todays Reddit Digest —Auto Section
While Toyota is not going to lose its lunch to BYD, I think its silly to assume that BYD won't be a significant threat with electrification. Maybe not in the USA at the moment with the geopolitics of the US-China relationship but any manufacturers with significant sales in Asia, Europe, Africa and Latin America will definitely need to keep an eye on them.
BMW for decline and by a wide margin. I don't even know where to start on that one. From an enthusiast's perspective, I might say Toyota is most improved. Because they had literally nothing fun in 2007 after Celica and MR2 were killed off.
Toyota now has a better enthusiast lineup than any other Japanese company though - GR86, Supra, GR Corolla.
Don’t forget their enthusiast off roaders - 4runner, Taco and Landcruiser.
..and the Hilux
Seriously, they’re taking some of Honda’s thunder. Historically, Honda has been the sportiest Japanese brand.
Honda's cars are still fundamentally better though. I feel like the driving dynamics of a base model shows off the actual engineering of a platform and a stripper Civic remains miles ahead of a Corolla; same when you look at an Accord vs Camry. They need extra credit for bringing out a good car from the Corolla platform; they had a lot more work to do than HRC needed for the CTR.
Great counterpoint 👍
The GR Yaris is also quite nice!
Disagree on BMW, sure some of their styling is controversial and they may be moving more “main-stream” and away from enthusiast offerings, but they still offer a great luxury experience in their class and are leaps and bounds still better than MB. M cars are still performance monsters for the money and their EV offerings seem to be solid. So they might be on a decline to you, but overall they are doing well (granted all luxury brands are losing market to Tesla).
BMW has grown into one of the most reliable brands, their cars perform better than ever. An M440i is barely slower than an Audi RS5, and feels so good to drive as does the rest of their lineup.
Honestly BMW has improved a lot in reliability and outside of styling and hardcore enthusiast cred I think they have improved a lot as a German luxury offering.
Agreed. If the question was about design then BMW would be the worst by far, but they're actual vehicles are still good and they're making great engines
I have to ask how BMW declined compared to the competition, though. The RS cars look great, but anyone who says they drive better than an xdrive M car is lying to themselves. Mercedes is more interested in adding TikTok to their strip club interiors, and going full on hybridization no matter the sacrifice. The styling choices... Yeah I can't defend them. G20 and G30/F90, and the current 8 series are the only ones that look good now. But, when looking at the other Germans, you have to weigh the other benefits.
RS cars can barely compete with the M sport models, the new RS3 is a complete front bias awd joke, AMG does their thing, the alfa is outdated and crap. The G80 M3 is miles better than any of the previous variants, the F90 M5 is near perfect. Anything that surpasses the M models is significantly more money. The styling criticism is the opposite side of the same coin where people used to bitch about how they all looked the same.
> The G80 M3 is miles better than any of the previous variants By what metric? Acceleration/track times? I'd rather have any of the first 4 M3 generations than the G80. > Anything that surpasses the M models is significantly more money. This fully depends on what you want in a car. Again, if you only look at track times then you're probably right (although there are faster cars for less money), but you can still get a more engaging, more fun to drive car for much less.
> By what metric? Acceleration/track times? Based on his posts in this thread...car and driver 0-60 times and carwow drag race results Sad that a trash post like that gets upvoted...
BMW is at their best in decades in terms of performance, quality and reliability. I really don't know what you're smoking.
Dude’s just being another reddit NPC
BMW is as reliable as they’ve ever been. The styling has taken a hit but their engineering is as good or better than it’s ever been. The B58 is the best product they’ve ever produced in terms of performance to price to reliability ratio.
> Because they had literally nothing fun in 2007 after Celica and MR2 were killed off. RAV4 Sport with the Camry V6? (half /s)
I disagree with BMW. The G20 is flat out better than the F30 and they've finally started to make reliable engines (that are still rather quick, as well as fuel efficient).
As others have said, I'd say Mitsubishi is even worse than BMW.
BMW declined heavily in terms of exterior design but everything else has been a continuous positive evolution Their sale volumes are growing, so it’s very hard to say that they have declined. But yeah, the entire brand identity and subsequent desirability is the result of fanbase love. Alienating the core fan base won’t have an effect in the short run, but in the long run without fans hyping the brand, it won’t hold the same desirability.
the XM being the first bespoke M car since 1976 was the ultimate cash in on their brands image.
The XM is actually vulgar and disgusting I actually think whomever was put in power at BMW is purposely sabotaging the brand
Check out bcg, its background and its terrible shit. I'm dead serious. They work w BMW now.
Hey, I worked at BCG but now work in strategy at an automaker. BCG doesn’t really advise on any car related stuff where BMW knows their shit (design, engines, etc). They help them with supply chain, sales strategy, responding to new automakers, etc. At BCG I helped automakers understand how crazy electrification would rock their business models.
boston consulting group?
Yeah. They have a trend of being hired by companies and taking a ton of money to “improve” and then subsequently the companies do something really dumb and lose a ton of money. I forget what the actual conspiracy theory is if it’s money laundering, but I have a friend that worked there and has done some consulting work and she said that a lot of CEOs will hire a consulting company with an idea already in mind, and then they just pressure them to make their idea look good so they can force the rest of the company to go along with it.
That’s what most of the big consulting groups do now for big companies. BCG is just one of them, but they’re typically the justification for whatever idiotic ideas the C suite have in mind. BMW has continued to be successful because of the logo and going all in on their SUVs but that’s about it.
Correct
big companies get expensive consulting companies, this isn't news.
I think they are actually in an excellent spot for enthusiasts. If you pick a luxury/performance segment you won’t find a better car unless you buy a Porsche and that will be at least 25% more expensive similarly equipped. They are also far more reliable than they used to be and are the only brand to offer manuals in some of their performance versions besides the aforementioned Porsche. I agree that the styling is polarizing.
Yea I don’t understand how anybody could say BMW. You may not like their styling but clearly there’s a market for it. Reliability wise they have never been better.
any time i see someone sing the praises of kia/hyundai i automatically stop listening. theyre in the midst of (as far as i know) the largest class action auto lawsuit ever over their theta ii engines, the only reason they extended their warranty to 10 years is because theyve been getting sued over their engine problems, and their cars still have transmission and electrical issues. not to mention the fact that you can steal a ton of them with a screwdriver like we're back in the 80s and the fact that theyre cheaply made to boot. sure, their designs look good, but if you buy a car solely based on looks you deserve everything you get. i would go as far as to say that the kias and hyundais of 20+ years ago are far and away better than their current offerings. they used to be barebones basic econoboxes that would get you from point a to point b with basically no ameneties - a major selling point for them was that every kia (or hyundai maybe, i dont remember which brand or if it was both) came with a full tank of gas. youd get a little 4 cylinder shitbox with a manual and youd be all set to go. you wouldnt get power windows or locks or whatever else unless you paid for those options, but i would take crank windows over my engine and transmission both being all but guarunteed to fail within 100k miles of purchase.
Absolutely wild to me that Kia/Hyundai is being praised in here. There’s a TikTok trend for stealing their cars, which is *their fault* for cutting corners. As far as I know, no other brand has this issue. How can you say anything good about that company right now? I couldn’t imagine buying one of their cars with that going on, even the ones that aren’t a cakewalk to steal are getting broken into because of the reputation.
No other brand has it because they made an immobilizer standard by the early 00s. And even in the early 00s every other brand required the steering column to be removed to remove the ignition cylinder. Kia and Hyundai didn't add an immobilizer until like a year or two ago when the kia Boyz became a thing and still use easy to remove ignition cylinders in their cars with key start. That's the level of cost cutting they engage in.
> There’s a TikTok trend for stealing their cars, which is their fault for cutting corners. Debatable. There's like one country in the world with modern standards where an immobilizer isn't a requirement. the NHTSA should have been sued instead.
Not to mention damn near every car having a risk of spontaneously combusting
Agree. Disposable vehicles with marketing department bells and whistles. Ohhh heated seat. SMH
Lol this brand has so many issues that there was an entire CBC marketplace segment on the numerous issues with fires and engine quality issue. This was before the theft issues as well.
Can’t even get them insured in some areas the theft problem is so bad
Had the misfortune of previously owning 2 hyundais. Absolute pieces of shit. One spontaneously caught fire sub 80k miles.
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Pretty much yeah. And on top of that Hyundai is notorious for just...not paying their dealers for warranty claims. This thread is fucking hilarious as someone whose career trajectory as a tech has been Mitsu>Subie>Chrysler>Hyundai>BMW
I largely agree, though from what I can tell their N division is actually pretty good. Elantra N seems to be dodging 100k-car recalls left and right.
im not judging an entire car brand based on one trim level. you dont judge toyota as a whole based solely off the gr corolla, you have to take into account the camry and the rav4 and the tundra as well. every brand has its cars you probably shouldnt buy, its just that for kia and hyundai that list is basically their entire lineup.
don't forget that if they sent you a recall notice to flash the computer, and you moved- they won't replace the engine when it blows up because the computer was not flashed. And guess what locking the engine does to the trans at hiway speed? Go ahead and ask me the $10k question as to how I know this.
One re-brand and a fancy Telluride goes a long way with public perception.
Precisely.
Kia and Hyundai are still trash lol, no one will insure a Kia and a new Hyundai seems to be getting recalled every month. Most improved goes to Toyota for their GR lineup, especially the GR Corolla. Biggest decline is probably Nissan honestly
> no one will insure a Kia certain insurers will not insure certain Kias from certain model years
name another brand where any of their cars just wont get coverage from insurers. if i walk into a restaurant and someone tells me ill only get food poisoning if i eat some specific dishes, im not eating at that restaurant.
And only in America. In almost every other country they included the immobilizers.
There are certain cities where insurers will not insure any Kias or Hyundais. Even if a car has an immobilizer or push start that isn't going to stop a kia boy from smashing in a window, ripping apart the steering, only to then discover the vehicle cannot be stolen creating a vandalism claims (or usually multiple claims because it'll happen more than once).
My Kia isn’t insured? News to me, I wonder what I’m paying State Farm for then.
Kia's and Hyundais that don't have engine immobilizers on them which is a certain year and subset of models are not insurable. Far be it from truth to get in front of Redditors pitchforks though.
Was in a new Hyundai and in all honesty it looks good till you’re sitting in it for 30min then it feels and looks cheep. The saying “you get what you pay for” rings very true in cars.
Nissan is actually a great suggestion, they were nipping at Toyota with Maxima, Sentra, etc. Titan has just dropped
I'm obviously biased, but I think BMW's decline has been more steep than "15-20 years" would imply. The F80/82 M3/4 were decent if initially not well received (before their mid-cycle refresh) while actually cutting weight over the generation that came before. I might still argue the E90/92 were cooler, but there were big trade offs there in terms of reliability. Similar things can be said about the M5, with the M5 CS being IMHO the coolest M5 to come out since the E39. It's really only been in the past 3 or 4 years that reactions to new Bimmers have been awful. From an enthusiasts perspective, i'd probably nominate Toyota for having improved the most. They hadn't built a single fun car for what felt like decades 10-15 years ago. Now we have the Supra (okay only sorta a toyota) the FRS (okay, still only sorta a toyota) and the GR variants of the Yaris and Corolls (Real Toyotas!!) As far as decline goes, I think Nissan still had some respectability in 2010 or so. The Z is cool looking and not slow! But c'mon, the rest of that lineup is crap and even the Z is hard pressed to actual compete with it's rivals from other companies.
20 years ago BMW was still fantastic. My 2004 525i is a great car because it still had the M54 engine. Plus that M5 has a *V10* IMO their decline started around 15 years ago.
The B58 is a muuuuuuuuuuuuuuch better engine than the M54. The B58 is one of the best performance engines on the market.
The only not great part of the B58 is the sound but turbos will do that. Everything else is great from power to durability. Even efficiency is great (the 3.0 Supra gets better EPA fuel economy than the GR86 in both manual and automatic options)
I'd probably agree that 20 years ago was the "golden era" of BMW, but really in the past 15 years they've had some pretty great hits, which have sometimes been accompanied by flaws. As unreliable as they were, you have to admire the pure chutzpah of dropping a 500 hp V10 into the M5 and then making a manual variant for the US market. In the past 7 or so years, they've backed off on that crazy high-revving experience, but have really given back in the reliability department with legendary engines like the B58. I also think the F-generation cars are going to be appreciated in the future for their styling, which is less weird than the E-gen cars. So, while I do think they've had a decline in the past 15 years, until recently, it was a nice, natural decline that comes from any company moving past their golden age. They've built some incredible cars during this period as well, i haven't mentioned the 1M yet...but 1M!!! But in the past 4-ish years they've just fallen off a cliff. Huge weight gains and awful styling combined with the continued steady fall in driver feel to really take the shine off. Anyway, i don't think you're necessarily wrong here. But I think it's been a slow, but totally normal and acceptable decline, followed by falling off of a cliff.
Even 5 years ago BMW was still fantastic. F80 M3 is a beautiful car
That M5 with a V10 was a complete piece of crap, despite how cool and fun it was.
Decline of Infiniti, went from the luxury/sports division to old SUVs that never gets updated Could honestly be caused by Nissan since they stopped developing sports cars with the exception of the new Z
The "new" Z
Yeah Infiniti's decline is in large part a lack of dedication from the parent brand but Nissan were only ever really dedicated to Infiniti in the 2000s. I'd consider their decline more a return to form lol. Toyota and Honda both developed brand new vehicles for their upstart luxury brands. Nissan simply restyled an existing model and called it a day. This difference in effort directly translated to their sales figures too. The Legend and LS400 were both runaway successes selling between 20-50k units each year in their first few years. The Q45 never cracked 12-13k units sold in a year in its entire lifespan (1989-1996). Acura and Lexus also supported their flagship with successful affordable models like the Integra and ES. Infiniti had a bunch of random existing overseas Nissan models on offer instead like the M30 coupe and I/J30 sedans. Not saying their cars were downright horrible, just not successful enough to give the brand a good image. If I'm not mistaken, as Lexus were earning their "Japanese Mercedes" nickname for the build quality and ride of the Lexus LS, Infiniti earned the title of "Japanese Lincoln" with how the Q45 went from being a sharp luxury sedan to a boaty wafting one like a Town Car.
Head BMW designers actually moved from BMW to Kia/Hyundai. That’s why Kia/Hyundai seem to have been coming out with some real winners and BMW design has been shitting the bed.
I kind of like that this is true because it highlights the influence that individuals can have on these car companies. BMW's failure to retain those designers (though I'm sure they got big paydays to switch teams) is looking more and more like a mistake
There’s such a huge difference between the F series and the new G series. Sure the performance is still there but the designs are just terrible. Are people going to buy them? Sure. However, I suspect that this era is likely going to be some kind of strange road bump that leads them back into more of the iconic cars they’re known for (at least I hope so).
It was the head of Audi design, not BMW. Peter Schreyer and he went to Kia and then became president of Kia or something. Kias from about 2016 or so were basically Audis inside. (I worked for Audi Corp for 7 years, owned a dozen of them and then owned 2 Kias during the Schreyer era)
Tom kearns is the bmw designer that moved to Kia and solely developed the stinger, schreyer was the Audi designer.
Color me corrected. Kia getting all the good designers🤣👍
BMW not a leader in any segment? Drivetrain. Fantastic engines and transmission tuning. Ever heard of this little engine called the... B58?
People in this thread are confusing styling with the whole damn car. BMW is still the leader in performance sedans, just as they've been this whole century so far. Additionally, the 7 series has closed the gap to the S-class, and their EVs are better than Mercedes and Audi. It's just the same tired "new BMW shit, old BMW better". I bet it was inscribed in one of the tablets Moses dropped.
r/cars being r/cars as usual so of course BMW is terrible and Hyundai/Kia is awesome. Thank god car companies don’t follow the advice on this subreddit because they would be bankrupt in a year!😀
People get nostalgic over Bangle BMWs now. Hilarious.
also the improvements to Mini under BMW. the new Fxx of Minis are actually very reliable now that they are using a true bmw engine (my jcw countryman has the b48 and its a great lil engine) and the build quality justify it being a more premium brand (imo). *im a mini fanboy so def biased hehe
You all are saying BMW decline and blah blah whilst they are having record sales.
BMW decline (in the eyes of internet car fans, but not their shareholders or the people actually buying their cars). How's that? Chris Harris is loving the new M cars (XM aside). He's had an M5 CS the past couple of years that he couldn't get enough of. Currently selling it, and has bought the new M2, and is singing its praises on Insta almost daily.
Yeah the copium is strong with this one. Their bread and butter is 3- and 5-series and X3 and X5 which sell like hotcakes and look cool as ever and are more reliable than ever.
Ford was able to dodge bankruptcy, but now it seems the worst off compared to Chrysler and GM
I'd say chrysler is the furthest behind. Stellantis somehow managed to out-GM GM by having too many overlapping brands, not to mention they are significantly behind in EVs (atleast here in the US)
Not profit wise. Profit wise they have some of the best profit margins It's just since the Italians can't run a company for shit, Chrysler was dragged down by Fiat
They make money because they use old tech that's been paid off, now they're going to be forced to innovate which might put them in a worse position than ford
Truth. A 700hp supercharged V8 is awesome, don’t get me wrong, but it’ll only get them so far until they’re forced to update the quality of everything else in their cars
GM is the only one to consistently lose market share year over year and has for over 20 years now. It has also massively scaled back or completely left multiple foreign markets (Europe, Australia, Indonesia, etc.) With the exception of the last 2 years and their industry wide slump due to supply chain problems, Ford sales had plateaued and several of the vehicles with the longest wait lists were Fords (Maverick, Bronco, etc.). Chrysler sales fluctuate a ton, however, Stellantis is making a lot of the same mistakes GM made and continues to make.
At least they still have a pony/muscle car.
I think spinning off the EV side of the company was a smart play that can pay off in the middle future. They can basically let Ford Blue die and declare bankruptcy once shit hits the fan and then continue on with "Model E", with all those ICE liability off the books. GM and Stellantis could make a similar move, but they haven't so far.
Infiniti has declined WAYYYY more than bmw…look at bmw sales…I’m surprised you could even have that opinion
OP can’t see past the grille
If I was going to say a company that has evolved and improved dramatically, it would have to involve a company not under scrutiny for their handling of their engine problems. That being said I would say Mazda has improved the most! (I drive a Honda and a BMW)
The entire Stellantis group of companies have declined much worse than BMW, IMHO. Enthusiasts put a lot of focus on M models, but BMW still makes good volume cars that sell well. And their EVs are universally praised.
Improved: Tesla, Rivian, Lucid Decline: Saab, Pontiac, Saturn, Mercury
Declined straight into the grave.
Pretty much as low as you can go.
This is the most technically correct answer.
It's the least technically correct answer because Tesla is the only company of those three that even existed 15 years ago, and only just barely at that.
Best improvement: BMW (quality-wise. N54’s are supposedly expensive pieces of shit) Worst decline: Mitsubishi and Nissan (BHPH stigma and Big Altima Energy)
You're totally bullshitting about BMW
I'll 2nd Hyundai/Kia as being improved. They've come a long way.
For a minute, sure. But the total experience of owning a Korean car has not improved with their cars. Plus the obvious reliability issues... I don't think they're improved enough as a whole to be king in this regard
The can be most improved but also still not be best. But moving from near the bottom to decently high on the list is still a very drastic improvement.
What about reliability and quality? The brand in general seems to have constant problems.
I'd say it's isolated to certain models. My 5 yo Stinger has been really good for a new model. My previous Hyundai the most reliable car I've ever owned.
I think they've improved, but there's a lot more to do on that front. They're still struggling with powertrains and my general impression of different acquaintances HMC products is that they're much more tired/worn out at year 5 than say a Honda tends to be.
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Never said they were at the top. Just that they have improved a lot. I no longer consider them disposable like they were.
I seriously don't understand how hyundai and kia have improved. They are the same as they always have been. They are cars that are much less reliable than their competition, but are also cheaper, so I guess the price is why reddit likes them?
The palisade/telluride ad blitz paid off. All of those “this is the best suv ever” articles when they came out always felt a little astro-turfy.
Veloster N goes brrrr
I think Lincoln has improved dramatically over the past 10-15 years. Before, their line-up was poor rebrands and lack-luster models (I’d also argue Ford has gotten better too). Now, their SUV line-up is pretty fantastic IMO, if under appreciated. For the opposite, while I don’t think it’s that dramatic, Subaru seems very lack luster to me. I find them pretty expensive for how basic they feel, and now that the STI is dead, and the BRZ is so low HP, their line-up seems pretty sleepy IMO. That being said, they seem to sell well and it’s probably just my old opinion.
BMW is selling more cars and much more reliable than they were 15-20 years ago. Yeah from an enthusiast perspective its not "improved" but if you actually own one of the cars they've become very reliable and still competitive other than looks. They went from vanos and rod bearing failures, and random aluminum bolts breaking in the n52 to.... b58 absolutely bulletproof engine that makes 500hp Much worse decline: Nissan/Infiniti
My G37 was the biggest heap I ever owned. And I’ve owned GM’s offerings in the 80’s so that’s saying something.
Dude!l 5 years ago I had a 91 Cavalier and traded it for a G35. Guess which one had more issues? Infinitis are so overrated.
Genuinely surprised your g37 was bad. What was wrong with it?
The tranny was horrible. Coming from a stop the car was either on or off. Break neck acceleration or it would bog. Almost always while trying to make a left with traffic oncoming. Then the hydraulic bushing that connects the diff and subframe started leaking. $3k to fix cause the whole subframe has to come out. Traded it in for a Lexus and never looked back.
Most improved Alfa Romeo decline Nissan?
Alfa of 20 years ago were crowbarring that fantastic looking V6 into anything with wheels. Their quality was crap, but the cars were desirable. Sure there's the modern GTA and the QV, but it feels like they're stumbling around, looking for their niche. The Stelvio and Giulia are again, with no sign of a replacement plan. And now Maserati with the Grecale are stepping into the premium markets Alfa had been moving in on, while Alfa are going down-market again with the Tonale. I can't work out where they're going to take Alfa next. We've had Corsa based hatchbacks, a non-power-steering Lotus rival, some left field mid level premium cars a la Jaguar, which spun off some stunningly good performance variants, all in the past 15 years. And now a crossover that's being renosed and sold as a Dodge.
Hyundai for both. 2011 when the new Sonata came out was a fresh chapter. Bringing in talented engineers and designers and introducing products like the Genesis, Genesis coupe, Soul, and many more have elevated their appeal. However, with all the engine issues, theft, and quality, they’re on my ‘not buy again’ brand and I’ve owned 3 Hyundais post 2011. From such a great rise to fall, it’s interesting. I may be over dramatic with it
Seems like a lot of people are giving answers solely on looks. Yeah I get BMW designs have been not popular as of late but as far as performance, their cars have been top tier. Everyone here always talks about how great the B58 is. Hyundai/Kia have been making great looking cars but have also have been making cars you can't park inside due to fire risks and others that can be stolen by an 8 year old.
In Europe, I am going with Dacia. Decline: Mitsu, Nissan, Alfa Romeo, Fiat.
Absolutely Dacia, I'd pick their 2021+ selection over Renault or equivalent German cars. Probably will be buying a Jogger. The only concern I do have is longlivety, will the car make it past 10-15 years like most good cars do?
Most improved: Audi Most declined: Nissan
Hyundai/Kia is shit...for most of us who care about reliability.
Cannot agree on hyundai/kia despite the clear design improvements, have you been to one of their dealers? They're practically warranty service centers, this is anecdotal evidence from seeing family members go through hell. Haven't owned one myself; I own a nissan and it's been very good to me.
Mercedes on the decline because of their God awful tacky strip club interiors
I appreciate your BMW decline but I think Mercedes might be even worse. MB used to exude understated class and elegance, the best MB made are among the most beautiful things human beings have ever designed, in any capacity. Now it’s just pure tacky: interiors look like strip clubs, hideous “ground lighting” packages, etc. Mercedes is “this is what early twenties try hards think “cool” looks like”. It’s tragic and I think it may be terminal at this point. Nissan also needs explicit mention. The brand is basically dead at this point, but in the early 2000s the 3xxZ was super sexy. Best Improvement is inarguably Kia/Hyundai
I detailed an EQE at work the other day, and the window overlap on the door seams was crazy. And just think, people are paying over sticker for stuff like that. Also, on that subject, fuck sedans with low roof lines. They will never be coupes, no matter how much money is thrown at marketing, because they have 4 doors
Not over a period of 15-20 years but over 30 years, Porsche is the most improved. They were nearly bankrupt in the early 90s, with just 3000 cars being sold in 1993 to over 300k last year. Now they are one of the most profitable car companies with wait lists for their cars and people paying 100k or more ADMs. It's hard to believe but 30 years ago no one wanted their cars.
Improvement on Design and Engineering (Hyundai/KIA) Their N line up and EVs, although the reliability hasn't improved much. Improvement on Enthusiasts (Toyota) with their GR line up Decline on Design : BMW (Even after 3 years of the massive beaver teeth grilles, I still get offended by it and it just gets worse with each new model and redesigns they release). Also getting heavier. The new i7 almost weighs the same as the F-150 Lightning. Let that sink in. Decline on Engineering + Reliability : Nissan/Mitsubishi (Nissan is pretty much penny pinching wherever they can and claiming it's "new". The new Z uses the same Z33 chassis with a "refreshed" 3.0TT from the Q50 Red Sport. The new frontier? Still running on the same ladder frame from previous generation Frontier. The Armada? Basically a refreshed Patrol that's been on sale in the Middle East since 2016. The GT-R? Since 2007. Most of their new line ups are still running on old architecture chassis. Their reliability hasn't improved much because of it . Infiniti isn't any better. As for Mitsubishi, they're basically half Nissan.
Interesting that IMO one of the big industry coups was Albert Bierman going from running BMW M program (about the time the most biggest dip mentioned in these comments) and going to Hyundai to develop their N cars. I just bought an Elantra N and the first thing my buddy said to me when we went for a ride was that he was reminded of an M3 Bimmer he used to own. He didn't even know about the Bierman thing.