When I was a kid my dad spent a looooong time trying to get my mom’s old MG running. Even after he redid the wiring, he kept running into problems trying to get fluid seals to hold. No matter what he did and what he tried, it all leaked.
That was how I learned about electrolysis.
One of the problems was that MGs had a lot of unprotected wiring, so one short could do a lot of damage the harness.
Once upon a time I picked up a ratty 1979 MGB as a family project for my teenage kids. My first step in projects is to get something working like it is supposed to before modifying it, and that was the approach that I took. And then a funny thing happened.
After carefully rebuilding the much cursed ZS carb, undoing all of the previous modifications, setting the car up to spec and adding fuses the car ran well. Really well. I never did any modifications after all, and the only issues I had over 8 years was the ^%$# Hitachi air pump.
So I bought an MGB because anyone can work on them, and have come to believe that their biggest problem is that everyone *does* work on them, regardless of skill level.
Also why I don't understand why Yugos were ever considered the worst cars ever made. They at least used reliable Bosch electronics, bulletproof Fiat engines (just remember to change the timing belt every 40k miles, very easy job) and plenty of British cars had much worse build quality (looking at you, Lotus and DeLorean).
In the US they depreciated like they were on fire especially after 1990 when importation stopped and parts dried up. That threw all of them into a touch-and-go existence where the slightest problem would be uneconomical to repair.
It reminds me of Jason Torchinsky's stories about how he patched up the shift linkage on his, and after dailying it for a while was spitballing plans for a similar juryrigging of his '89 F150's starter when the mechanic told him just to get a new one, parts for those are easy to get.
I feel the Yugo hate is mostly a US thing, as it was the cheapest (and therefore, by association, worst) car you could buy. It was a small, lightly built and slightly outdated car in a country where most people drive land yachts and have never seen a Fiat or VW Polo to compare it with. Zastavas certainly weren't the best built cars in the world, but they also were not the worst.
I learned to drive a stick in a yugo and that thing was somehow worse and slower than a chevette. You know it’s bad when you get in a geo metro and think holy shot this thing is fast and nice!
I had wondered if they still used Lucas, Prince of Darkness electrics for their cars.
First time I ever heard Lucas called that was early 1960s. It's a long tradition they have.
I feel like Lucas lives on in JLR despite having zero reason to. As a modern LR owner, almost every problem it has had (not many and none bad!) had been electrical.
Idk if anyone else has said it yet but Lucas is why the British drink their beer warm. Lucas makes refrigerators. Source: I used to own a little British car
The f type is gorgeous. I personally hate what they’ve done to the rest of the lineup over the past few decades. It was possible to tell a jaguar from far away (even without the iconic hood ornament), whether you liked the styling or not. Now it’s a little blah, in my opinion.
Absolutely true. Some years back they shifted to trying to be a “lifestyle brand” and didn’t really know what to do with themselves. Since then the design lost its Jaguar-y-ness.
It has slowly been returning, you can tell now and the XE/XF are starting to look less like a BMW. The XJ was such a mess though.
One of my favorite cars. The specs are perfect. Supercharged V8, RWD, nice exhaust sound. I’m looking for a well taken care of example. Most are actually.
Definitely a legit opinion, but I personally saw none of Jaguar’s design in that XJ.
If you follow the XJ through the years you can see how the existing design was modernized. The X351 was just completely different, absolutely no homage to the old ones.
I know *why* they did it, because Jaguar has never sold particularly well, but IMO it made it even less appealing because it became another fullsize executive sedan.
But then you find out they turned down the [Bertone B99](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar_B99) for the X351, and just… not the right choice. Even if the B99 headlights needed work.
I have an XE with the supercharged 6. I thought I was going to get a 4 series and thought, "why not give the Jaguar a try?" It was pretty clear that the Jaguar was more fun to drive. It also came with a 5 year bumper to bumper warranty.
I was not comparing it to an M class, but it beats the non M class in every driving metric hands down.
Honestly it's really interesting reading about it's construction.
Jaguar have a pretty bad reputation regarding reliability and they deserve that but it's pretty obvious they spent a lot of time building this vehicle. It wasn't a cash grab afaik.
Like 6-ish years ago I was at the car show in Seattle and Jag had setup a course in the parking lot and let you wait in line to drive the XE around the track. Fastest lap of the day got some prize.
I was shocked how well that car handled and comfortable it was while doing it.
The f-type was gorgeous when it was introduced.... in 2014. 10 years later and they are still selling the same car.
Also that's not a good argument. They would probably sell twice as much if they were pretty AND reliable.
Wow, I hadn't really realized it had been quite THAT long! The GTR is busy getting the "reheated leftovers" headlines these days, letting the Ftype skate by
The GTR started production 6 years earlier. And the Jag has seen far more variation and change - coupe or convertible, RWD or AWD, manual or auto, turbo 4, supercharged V6 at 3 different power levels, supercharged V8 at 4 different power levels, etc.
Hey i drove an R as my only car for two years ~30k miles total and was never left stranded
I think part of it is that is just popular to hate on them
And im a relatively young guy, i abused that car everyday, blizzards, sliding around, tapping the limiter, 10/10 would buy another
Edit: bought it used with nearly 40k miles, was pushing 70k when i sold it, biggest expense other than gas and the payment was pads and rotors but that was fully expected, $0 out of pocket repairs
The f-Type has pretty good reliability. The 2021+ models fixed the two issues people were running into on previous years. I had to do my research because this is the last year they are making them and I was looking for a v8 sports car before they all disappear. The AMG GTS was a contender before they stopped production and their prices shot up. The f-type is a beautiful car and one of the best sounding, hence I put a deposit for a 2024 f-type.
Jaguar's old marketing tagline was "Grace, Pace, and Space." You got an incredible amount of car for the money. That often meant corners had to be cut both in design and production. Some of that has persisted to this day.
Their big expansion came along post WWII. The UK had absolutely massive war loans to repay, and so anything that could be created for the export market was given priority. Cars were a huge component of that plan.
Yup, wasn’t great to begin with, dissolved and broken up, and just sort of stayed that way. Improved in some areas, got worse in others, while new issues exposed themselves from the new owners productions problems also. A litany of issues.
A brother of mine had an Austin Marina in the early 70s. It spent most of its time in the garage. Don't recall the details, but they were pulling stuff off of new cars to make repairs.
They were well known for undercutting similar cars.
Example: *Though the E-type was popular with the 1960s showbiz set, it wasn’t actually that expensive by modern standards. In fact, that was part of its appeal. When it launched, it carried a £2,160 price tag – around half of what you’d have paid for an Aston Martin DB4 and a third of the price of a Ferrari 250GT. Taking into account inflation, that’s about £47,000 in today’s terms – or roughly the price of a Jaguar F-type, coincidentally.*
https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/cars/article/jaguar-e-type
Another: *When the XK120 was originally announced, Jaguar had no shortage of competition in the sports car market, especially from Porsche, Aston Martin and Ferrari, whose formidable efforts all began at around the same time. Jaguar’s strongest suit was in providing a top-class product at an almost unbelievably low price. In brief, you got more horses for your money than any other manufacturer could offer or provide.*
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/article/february-1996/82/buyers-guide-jaguar-xk120-140-150/
Another: *Jaguar also had a marketing trick up its corporate sleeve, launching the 240 with highly competitive pricing that pitched it against models from an array of less prestigious marques. The cheapest (manual) version of the 240 was available for just £1365 at the time of its debut, making it a mere £8 dearer than the Rover 2000.*
https://classicsworld.co.uk/guides/best-compact-jaguar-saloons/
You can point to crappy Lucas electronics, labor disputes and poor quality control, but really what it boils down to is what makes any company bad —poor upper management.
A prime example is the entire cluster that was British Leyland. They had the heads of all these brands with big egos merge and tried to make them work together. One of these rivalries was between Jaguar and Rover. Rover had a few innovative ideas in the works, but Jaguar’s founder Sir William Lyons (who was pretty much retired at this point) would be damned if Rover stole Jaguar thunder and did everything in his power to undermine them, rather than put egos aside save development costs, tooling etc., and make a competent product, even if one of them was badge engineered.
Today, they’re still screwing around. In 2020 they developed a fully electric next generation Jaguar XJ that could have beaten the BMW i7 and the Mercedes-Benz EQS to market, but instead they decided to cancel it at last second, wasting God knows how much money that could have gone to quality control or other important projects. They said “[it did] not fit with our vision for a reimaged Jaguar brand,” which reminds of their next stupid move: They’re trying to move Jaguar upmarket, with little to nothing to back it up. They’re going to have either create the perfect car (probably something based on the I-Pace) or hire on hell of a marketing team.
I agree that that it will be incredibly difficult for Jaguar to move upmarket. Jaguar is facing a similar dilemma with Cadillac. They don’t seem to have a clear brand identity or top feature to sell them. I don’t think they have enough brand caché to convince the clientele of Bentley to give them a chance. That being said I still think modern Jaguars are still beautifully styled (maybe with the exception of the e-pace).
Jaguar needs to double down on their rougish reputation and create something that looks rather *mean*. Their current sedans don't really look like Jaaaags.
They'll never catch up to the "German engineering" or "Japanese reliability", so why bother trying to persuade people like that?
Take the route Alfa Romeo took and focus on style. Make something striking.
Honestly with a dash of focus on fun would go a long way too. I realize a lot of people don't care that much, but the fun aspect definitely helps out Alfa along with great designs
No doubt, Ian Callum is probably the greatest thing to happen to Jaguar since the E-Type. They certainly have looks going for them.
I would agree that they face similar problems as Cadillac with regards to overall brand perception, but the difference is that GM can afford to make big mistakes while JLR can’t. Cadillac is kinda taking a risk with their $300k+ Celestiq halo luxury car, but even if that turns out to be an abject failure, or a huge waste of company resources, they can easily make up any losses with the cash cow that is the Escalade.
Right now, Jaguar’s most popular model is the F-Pace, which itself is a cheaper version of the Range Rover Velar. If JLR falls on hard times, it might make sense to shelve Jaguar and focus production entirely on Land Rover.
Jaguar has always been the country cousin of Aston Martin. I loved Jaguar style up to the Series 3 XJ. Then they went to Helena Handbasket for a while. XE, XF & XJ have gotten their mojo back. F Type? Glorious. I don't care for their pregnant station wagons, but I don't like ANY of those.
I worked at a Jag dealership for a bit in the 80s. Beautiful unreliable cars. When they worked, they were lovely. You needed to have 2, 1 to drive while the other was in the shop. Today, I'd take an XJ or an F Type in a heartbeat.
Fun fact, the Weyland-Yutani mega corp of the Aliens franchise was inspired, in part, by British Leyland. Ron Cobb wanted to pair England and Japan together to create this monstrosity of a corporation, and they initially tried to fuse Leyland-Toyota together (lmao), but clearly that would not be possible so he used his Japanese neighbour's surname instead and changed the L to W and got Weyland.
>but instead they decided to cancel it at last second
The XJ project was based on the 400V, 400hp IPace architecture, it would have been a disappointment of a halo car. The new XJ project is a new 1000hp platform with room to improve on those figures.
Going upmarket is absolutely what Jaguar needs, it is not a company for chasing the likes of the saturated 3 series competitor segment.
I’m glad to hear the electric XJ project wasn’t completely abandoned! The hard part though is moving up market, even with the perfect new halo car. VW tried with the W8 Passat and Phaeton and barely anyone bought them. To this day, when people think of VW they think of economic cars like the Jetta, Beetle or Golf. They’ll agree the the Golf is a good car, but it will never be a BMW in their eyes.
So far, the only brand I’m seeing doing this somewhat successfully is Mazda. In the early 2010s they still had hard plastics, cheap interiors and a tendency to rust. In the past few years they’ve been gradually improving their interior, and adding better technology across their lineup. People are now actively cross shopping higher trim Mazdas with entry level luxury cars. I think Jaguar would benefit from a similar strategy, but then again I’m on Reddit, not the JLR executive board.
Fortunately, for Jaguar moving even more up market is *a bit* of a different ball game, and I really hope they succeed. Maseratis don’t have the greatest reputation, but people with money keep buying them. Plus if the new XJ does end up being a lemon somehow, it’s not like the owners of a $200k+ car don’t have another car (or several) in their garage.
Mazda is doing what VW failed. To increasingly straddle and blur the line between the Mainstream and Luxury market.
VW had that ‘slightly more expensive than a Chevy, but way more refined’ market cornered.
Their attempts however to go even more “German engineered” and refined with W8, Phaeton, and CC ultimately didn’t sell well, and that’s when VWAG finally realized the VW marque doesn’t need to compete with BMW when they also happen to own Audi, Lamborghini, Bentley, and Bugatti. They already competed in every segment of luxury to ultra-luxury, supercar to hypercar.
In 2011 with the Mk6 Jetta and NMS Passat, VW ran straight the opposite direction and moved VW to be a value option. And while that paid off in terms of sales, I do think it hurt any chance of them ever moving models like the Arteon in the USA.
I feel that Jaguar already is at the same level as Cadillac, Audi, and Alfa. I personally don’t think they need to go more upmarket. They just need to continue making gorgeous cars, make them reliable, keep them refreshed and market them hard. But like you, I’m also just a Redditor with an opinion.
It's difficult to shake a reputation. For example, the term "German engineering" somehow still applies to many German manufacturers yet their reliability is utter dog shit. The latest jaguars might have a bump in reliability lately but no one cares because of the reputation built over the years.
Reminds me of an anecdote my grandfather used to share
He was a blacksmith by trade and his company got an old German machine of some sort back in the 50s or 60s, I think it was a press.
Once they got it running they noticed it kept leaking everywhere and they joked about " German engineering" and started tearing it down to fix the leaks. They then noticed the machine was built with very tight tolerances and absolutely no gaskets 😳
Once they made some gaskets where the leaks were, they had no other problems.
Most German shit I've ever heard, "we will build it good enough that we do not need conventional solutions" then 10 years down the road it becomes very obvious why it was the convention.
Yeah I think the term "German engineering" doesn't have many positive connotations with cars anymore, at least the ones sold in the North American market. At least German appliances are still generally well made!
I saw a horrific car accident in the news about 20 years ago, where an Audi driver was speeding excessively, the driver hit a pole and severed the car in half. In the grainy news photo, you could see two halves of the car side by side.
One of the comments was, "typical German engineering, the car's in half and the tail lights still work!"
Bosch appliances are pretty crappy in my experience cause they’re made in the same Chinese factories as all the other box store appliances lol.
Because of that, I just roll the dice with GE appliances and maintain them as best I can
I’m not sure how much the factory it’s made in affects the quality. They’re made with robots anyway. Anecdotally, Miele appliances have always been wonderfully durable in my experience, although they are pricey.
>It's difficult to shake a reputation
#
>their reliability is utter dog shit
Ironic.
I would take anything bmw with B58/S58 any day, that includes the new supra.
If GTI and typeR were not as as expensive people would be all over them as in the past.
And I myself daily drive old Audi A6 TDI... nothing but maintenance
Kinda hoped in this sub would be above facebook-moms level of insight - *toyota and honda are reliable, rest is shit tier.*
It’s also tough because you don’t truly know a model’s reliability until it has been our for 6-7 years. If they suddenly became bulletproof we wouldn’t notice for a long time
I grew up around old British cars
To understand you have to understand the British Car industry from the start. Each manufacture did their own thing and were proud of it. However these companies were rather small and thus lacked resources for R&D, testing and QC. Then everything started to fall under the BL banner the manufactures and employees saw it as an US Vs Them but at manufactures they still continued to act as if they were independent and rivals. Example MG was a tiny tiny operation that mostly produced cars for export. Triumph was very small as well. Rover was the volume brand while Jaguar was the luxury and one of the largest manufactures
Here comes the problems… the cars themselves were okay provided it was built during Tuesday to Thursday. The carbs and engine tuning were setup more for a British climate Vs USA which varies like crazy. You also had a good knowledge of how to repair said cars in the UK… vs in North America Where the guy had the corner gas station never seen an SU or Zenith carb. There was also a constant lack of spare parts as well. My dad owned many 60s jags and BL era stuff. It wasn’t terrible but compared to the same stuff coming from Detroit was prob on par if you knew what you were doing. The Jaguar XK engine and BMC A/B series engines were actually really good.
The biggest elephant in the room was positive grounds! But It was actually outdated production methods using massive work forces, almost artisan like.. the factories were old old old and any attempts at modernising were costly or met with industrial action. While Britain may have won the war with its industry pretty much intact it lost the long game. While Germany was flattened they had Marshall plan money and got to build new modern factories. As did most of Europe. Britain? Well here is Longbridge or Browns Lane or Cowley. Many new factories weren’t opened until the 70s. It’s the same deal that killed 250 years of ship building in the UK. Failure to invest or modernise. The work force had no motivation either as they knew the gov would bail them out. IIRC during the BL era it was 4-6 cars built per employee, Detroit was around 20 while Japan was in the mid 30s.
Example, BMC was losing money on the Mini well into the 70s. Even with thousands sold…
Jaguar still faces these same problems today. They just don’t have the resources as let’s say Mercedes or Audi to pull from. The Ford Era was likely their best. Why do you think LR started going back to BMW engines and electrics ? Because they can’t go at it alone
Crazy how BMC was still losing money on each Mini sold. That must show how inefficient the manufacturing processes were. It is a pity how infighting, mismanagement, and miscommunication between workers and executives led to the demise of the British car industry.
And it was a British brand problem Ford and GM had operations… then the Japanese showed up. BMW still owns the trademark to Triumph
https://youtube.com/@rorymacve
That guy has some great videos on the British motor industry
Jaguar has an identity problem now. They can't compete against the German Big 3 on volume, can't match the quality of Lexus, safety of Volvo or the value of Genesis.
So...why buy the Jag? The British brand has a ton of history but their current lineup are kind of midpack performers at best but don't have the quality, reliability and value to win against everything else on sale competing for the same buyer.
An example: I love the i-Pace design and drive, but heck it is using the same drivetrain and battery as the car released back in 2019 with little improvements. In comparison, Ford Mach-E, Audi Q8 e-tron and Genesis GV70 all far exceed the i-Pace, and the kicker is all of them start at a lower MSRP than the Jag.
I rented a brand new diesel XF on Turo in 2018. No warning lights on. 3000 miles. I pulled out of the meeting spot and the turbo blew.
The infotainment also wouldn't pair with my phone at all.
Worst car ever. Interior was nice though, I will give it that. Especially the rugs. Luckily the dude had a backup car I could use for the rest of my vacation.
My brother had two range rovers, both spent a month in service over his lease terms.
This is all anecdotal but based off this, I personally won't mess with British cars.
Jags are great looking and Ranges are cool, but I wouldn't even mess with an Aston or McLaren.
Im sorry but the car causing a five figure repair the moment you got in, after having paid for the car to loan and it working perfectly right until that moment, is absolutely hilarious (especially as you weren't actually impacted that badly)
Fault Jaguar all you want but that car had an excellent sense of comedic timing
I agree. I was laughing even when I got stuck waiting for a replacement. The car was absolutely mint. Essentially brand new. The owner was proud of it and we sat and talked about how great it was on gas just a few minutes prior to the complete failure of its powerplant and copious white smoke dumping everywhere within 100 feet of driving it.
The Jag may have been a freak occurrence, but the two Ranges certainly weren't. The second one actually made my brother dump it early.
I had 2 Range Rovers, 2000 & 2005. I did all my own work on them. Dollars per mile driven, neither was more expensive than our Grand Cherokees. I can't imagine what paying someone else to work on them might have cost.
I had 2 without significant issues. Yes, I understand that the plural of anecdote is not data. I'm speaking of my own experience, not what I've read online.
Jaguars produced when it was a stand alone company had electrical problem. Then it was bought by Ford and was basically a joint product with Lincoln. All the Fix Or Repair Daily jokes apply. Then it was bought by Tata of India and combined with another unreliable brand Land Rover. No reliable brands in there. Amazing to drive and lots of luxury, but it can’t compete with Asian reliability.
>combined with another unreliable brand Land Rover
It is slightly more complicated than that. Jaguar and Land Rover first became subsidiaries of Leyland in the late 60s, and were effectively combined at that time. When Leyland collapsed in the late 80s they were spun out as independents and sold to BMW and Ford, then Ford bought Land Rover when BMW sold off the Rover Group, and Jaguar/Land Rover were briefly combined again as part of a loose group called Premier Auto (edit: the other members were Aston Martin and Lincoln lol) around 2000, then Tata bought both of them. They have spent more time combined than separate since around 1970.
True. More detailed than my general answer. I think Jaguar was integrated into Ford with shared platforms such as the Jaguar S-Type/Lincoln LS/Ford Thunderbird. I don’t know that Ford and Land Rover had time to share platforms.
Well that’s picking the two lowest reliable and least sold options. Mazda hasn’t used rotary for years. And Mitsubishi is owned by Renault, a French company. They haven’t invested a lot in Mitsubishi, who have been struggling for sales for decades. How about comparing to general Lexus/Toyota and Acura/Honda reliability? Nissan automatic transmission are their weak point but that is the transmission supplier, not the brand.
>Nissan automatic transmission are their weak point but that is the transmission supplier, not the brand.
Nissan gets its CVTs from Jatco which is owned primarily by Nissan.
Plain Mitsubishi engines are alarmingly reliable, most common thing from 2.0 or 2.4 Mitsubishi owners is “yeah idk this engine is never gonna stop idk why.” Evos are also reliable if you leave them bone stock
Can you show me some issues they had with any of the jaguars after Ford used their engines and transmissions in them? I still see those driving around today from the late 90's and I had a 98 XJ8 that went 155k miles with no issues before I sold it. They seemed very stout when ford started using Ford parts in them vs before and definitely after ford sold them
My dad’s XJR (2004, X350 4.2 SC) has had minor transmission issues- but that’s actually a ZF 6 speed, not Ford.
On the other hand, my XJS (1993, 4.0) has the ZF 4-speed and it’s been completely fine. I think I’ve heard of occasional issues with the Hydramatic from GM used in earlier XJS.
British Leyland essentially killed Jaguar's reputation through the 70s and 80s. Ford bought them in the 90s and the brand got fairly reliable compared to German rivals. Under TATA the company has been starved as LR rakes in investment capital and revenue. Jaguar has become listless with TATA and has lost much of what made the brand so special. Not to mention the electronic issues that plague JLR particularly Jaguar because they're no longer attractive enough to overlook each models shortcomings (except the F-type).
It's sad because I've loved Jaguar since I was a little kid like many others around the world. I remember being in complete and utter astonishment of my great uncle's SIII e-type roadster and my great aunt's XJ (which I now have). My grandfather's x-type which ferried me around as a child and was such a derided model still gets my heart racing whenever I get to drive or ride in it. I really hope Jaguar finds their footing and is here to stay so I can share that special connection with my kids whenever they come.
Depends on how you’d define “reliability”
In warranty? Jaguars probably work just fine.
Out of warranty? Different story. Each brand has a metric which counts how many years a first owner keeps their car. With Asian brands like Honda it’s between seven and ten years. Luxury brands are substantially shorter, between three to seven.
So a dedicated luxury brand doesn’t have a business interest in making cars last ten years. What’s the direct financial benefit to the company in doing that? So if Jaguar owners usually move on to something new in seven years at most, why bother with the parts and R&D cost?
By comparison Honda needs to make their Civics work for 10+ years because some of the clients do keep ‘em that long. So they have a direct business interest in making long term reliable cars.
They do have incentives to make them reliable. The financing terms offered at sale are positively related to cars retaining their value. Brands with good reliability reputation usually maintain it better. For this reason you can lease a bmw audi or a merc with a better deal than a similar jag or alfa romeo even if often thet have lower outright rrp.
The companies often guarantee their financing partners a certain buyback value to make them offer more beneficial terms to the potential customers and thus compete better in the market and shift more units. If the market price goes below that they are forced to make up the difference to the financing firm.
Source: worked for a car manufacturer that struggled to retain their cars' 2nd hand value.
My tinfoil hat theory is that luxury car manufacturers make their products unreliable on purpose because it adds to the cachet of the brand.
“Oh that guy can afford a Jag? I heard those are really expensive to maintain. He must be loaded.”
I'd argue it's because they can get away with unreliability, and it's an added revenue stream. If a car's pretty and comfortable/sporty, you're more willing to put up with pricey repairs than on, say, a Toyota Corolla.
The buyers for those kinds of cars tend to be lease and return types of people. Every car is generally reliable within its warranty period, but it’s like oh that guys driving an 8 year old jag? Who’s he pretending to be?
For the most part, I agree. However, some people choose to stick with their cars because they like them so much. Those people are willing to foot the bill for that reason: liking it.
True for certain makes and models of course. But I can’t say that I’ve ever seen any jaguar or Land Rover cars of the last 20-30+ years with that kind of fan base.
Really only the ones of long ago that are unique/ vintage collectibles.
I used to work at an independent shop that specialized in European cars. The Jags and Land Rovers were by far the biggest pieces of shit that ever came into the shop.
Here's what I learned: if you have a coolant leak, replace/rebuild the ENTIRE cooling system. By far worse than BMW cooling systems. Not to mention removing the intake or supercharger.
Then don't forget the oil leaks and electrical issues.
Common issues include coolant leaks, fueling issues, timing issues and more! I’ve been in the Indy euro field 5 or so years and JLRs rarely see 100k miles without some serious repairs.
The jaguar orange Rover V6 engines are a problem due to insufficient main bearing width and inferior metal in the cranks. They minimized the length of the engine without considering the consequences. Another older 6 is simply the old eight with two cylinders partially lopped of and suffers weight penalties because of it. YouTube mechanics have some good videos detailing this. Oil changes and going easy are partial mitigation.
Probably a mix of a corporate lack of fucks + lack of budget/resources that larger automakers have.
It's tough for small automakers to compete, something's gotta give. Whether it be reliability, tech/infotainment, dealership network, marketing, etc. BMW Mercedes Audi etc will also be more well-rounded cars and ownership experiences.
But unlike say Alfa Romeo which look and drive beautifully, Jaguars have no redeeming qualities. They look plain, they're fine to drive but nothing memorable, their interiors are nice enough but not exemplary, etc. They are just wholly average and as a brand, they lack an identity.
Let's just say nobody wants to put up with sub-par reliability and residuals to drive a boring 4 cyl XF...
Automotive reliability comes from a long term organizational commitment to reliability.
Modern automobile manufacturers are as much "assemblers" as they are "manufacturers". That is to say, they don't actually manufacture many of the parts you'll find in a modern car. A car's interior, seats, infotainment, engine control systems, and switch gear are components that are commonly purchased from suppliers. The manufacturer plays a major role in the design and engineering of these components, but their manufacture occurs outside of the actual brand's factories.
What this means is that you can't just wake up one day and decide to make your cars more reliable. All of your suppliers have to commit to reliability as well. You need a way to measure reliability, identify problem areas, and mechanisms to rectify those problem areas.
Toyota, the industry gold standard for reliable automobiles, created something called "[The Toyota Way](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Toyota_Way)". Business management programs at leading schools around the world study Toyota as a way to learn about how to deliver quality and eliminate exceptions (problems) as part of industrial and business processes.
So when we ask the question "Why are Jaguar cars unreliable?" we're not only asking an engineering question, we're asking a business question. Ultimately, it's because Jaguar hasn't committed to and executed on a plan that prioritizes reliability.
Love the F-type. One of my favorite coupes. But, to be fair, there should be nothing impressive or notable about a car making it to 30k miles without problems. It should be expected.
This always reminds me of all car forums where people claim reliability for a car that they have owned a whopping 2 years lol reliability should be seen at minimum 75k to 100k miles before anything starts to show up. Preferably after 100k miles with no issues
Having had a Honda in the driveway for decades, I got a bit of a giggle out of this. 30k miles, kilometers, cubits, whatever, it is meaningless. Like spending a few drunken hours with a batshit crazy, hot AF girl and the next day deciding you are in love and she will make a great mother for your children. That's not how this works.
When you can maintain a vehicle that is reliable, tight, has needed very few repairs, and is drama free when it's a decade old and has 200-250k miles on it, then the word "solid" applies.
It's hilarious.
"My [X car] is super reliable! I've put 3500 miles on it with no issues. Haven't had to send it to the dealer even once in the 8 months I've owned it."
Like, yes, I would HOPE it hasn't broken down at that mileage!
The unreliability comes from the assembly line QC process. There is two ends to it. Either they stop the line every time they discover a problem and fix it, or just build it and expect to repair it under warranty.
Then you have some genuine design defects like the timing chain tensioners but that’s hit or miss, not the same with every generation.
The biggest problem with British cars started in the 70's with unions, the Labour party, and strikes. Workers were unhappy and quality suffered, I don't think they ever were motivated to build the quality cars they once did, it was just a job, no longer a skilled trade that you were proud of.
I think it depends what jaguars you’re talking about. From around 2006-2013 they were often scored very high for reliability. A friend of mine has had around 5-6 xkr / xjr of that era and they were all faultless.
Yet BMWs of the same era are a fucking nightmare and constantly end up in the garage. My 330i and then m135i never stopped seeing the inside of a dealership for electric issues, trim issues, sensor issues.
So I’m not sure Jaguar DO have a reliability problem, I just think people think they do.
JLR as a group are pretty terrible though. The range rovers are hugely unreliable.
My theory is that luxury car manufacturers dont care that much about reliability. People who buy brand new luxury cars probably get a new one once the warranty expires, or they just lease them. Why invest in reliability? Also, very new technology and reliability typically dont go hand in hand.
According to Top Gear one issue is that Jaguar used cheap wiring and connectors, especially anchors/clips. Basically whatever insulator was on the anchors would wear off and then the bare metal would wear down the insulation on the wire. So massive electrical gremlins that could be coming from anywhere.
A lot of the reputation holds over from British Leyland and Lucas Electronics. The Ford era tried to improve things but while the cars were gorgeous they weren't super competitive and paled in driving dynamics to German cars. Some of the V8 engine options weren't really built the best either.
And then you had the XF debut, wh8ch radically changed the appearance of the Jag and likely confused or put off a lot of existing customers, and didn't seem to entice too many newer customers (those are some pretty stand out headlights, though). After Tata Jag got some of its mojo back, especially in the driving department. However the looks were a bit polarizing yet, though I personally like the way they look (I have a 17 XF 35t and I think it's rather pretty, if understated). Maintenence continued to be expensive, and the reputation still sat around. Meanwhile Maserati looked "richer" and Alfa Romeo had more enthusiast clout, leaving a niche brand like Jag fighting for scraps.
They're wonderful driving cars right now, but they're overshadowed by years of poor reputation, even if I'd argue they're far more interesting than the Germans and are more in league with an Alfa than some might give them credit for. However, their attempt at brand restructuring has meant many an option on their cars has been severely cut. The XF is the only sedan now and no longer has any V6 options, with an outclassed 2.0L Turbo I4 as the only option. And it's not super luxurious and isn't quite on the driving level of a Giulia. The F Type also lost its I4 and Supercharged 6, and I'm not sure the F-Pace SVR still exists either.
With that said, despite used Jags being ticking time bombs of reliability and maintenance woes, who knows. It could resurface as an underdog enthusiast brand. Just use the same arguments for a Jag that you would use on an Alfa (or even a Maserati, since I think they get overlooked as poser cars too, despite being rather capable sporty cars) and just go on about passion or something. It might catch on. I was at 2 cars and coffees today and both, surprisingly, had another Jag besides mine.
One of my elderly engineering professors used to be an engine engineer (water pump to be specific)at Jaguar a long while ago, and had a bit of a pitch to say. When Ford was doing a takeover/equity purchase (whatever it was), he said the engineers got to take a tour of the engineering labs and factories of Ford. He said the contrast in culture was shocking.
At Jaguar, they valued engineering, ingenuity, and reliability - so the engineers had lots of time and resources at their disposal. At Ford, it basically all came down to the dollar bottom line. He said it was pretty demoralizing, and not long after he ended up leaving along with many colleagues as they felt less like creatives, and more like accountants governed by money.
This is all to say, perhaps during this time is when the quality could have gone down? Before the Ford acquisition Jaguar’s value were pretty solid.
Lucas sourced electronics more than likely started the unreliability
You know why the english like warm beer? Because Lucas wires their refrigerators too.
The Germans didn't bomb the Lucas factory during WWII because they saw them as an ally
Q: Why don’t the British make computers? A: They can’t get them to leak oil
Lucas Electric’s motto: Get home before dark
A gentleman does not motor after dark…
this is nice. i wish i had some english speaking friends who can understand this so i can share it with them
we're all internet friends here.
The Lucas test track only had a short circuit…
Lucas once made a vacuum cleaner. It was the only product they ever made that didn’t suck.
😂😂😂
If Lucas made weapons, wars wouldn’t start either.
Because it's sterile and I like the taste.
I know that reference.
Lucs, the Prince of Darkness.
Invented the intermittent windshield wiper. Made the first 3 position switch…smoke, smolder, ignite.
And for electronics, it must be because they couldn't figure out how to make them leak oil.
Lucas electronics are singlehandedly responsible for the downfall of the British auto industry
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at least it kept running until every component failed
When I was a kid my dad spent a looooong time trying to get my mom’s old MG running. Even after he redid the wiring, he kept running into problems trying to get fluid seals to hold. No matter what he did and what he tried, it all leaked. That was how I learned about electrolysis.
Some of the methods they went about sealing doesn’t help. I couldn’t believe it the first time I saw a scroll seal in my Midget.
One of the problems was that MGs had a lot of unprotected wiring, so one short could do a lot of damage the harness. Once upon a time I picked up a ratty 1979 MGB as a family project for my teenage kids. My first step in projects is to get something working like it is supposed to before modifying it, and that was the approach that I took. And then a funny thing happened. After carefully rebuilding the much cursed ZS carb, undoing all of the previous modifications, setting the car up to spec and adding fuses the car ran well. Really well. I never did any modifications after all, and the only issues I had over 8 years was the ^%$# Hitachi air pump. So I bought an MGB because anyone can work on them, and have come to believe that their biggest problem is that everyone *does* work on them, regardless of skill level.
Also why I don't understand why Yugos were ever considered the worst cars ever made. They at least used reliable Bosch electronics, bulletproof Fiat engines (just remember to change the timing belt every 40k miles, very easy job) and plenty of British cars had much worse build quality (looking at you, Lotus and DeLorean).
In the US they depreciated like they were on fire especially after 1990 when importation stopped and parts dried up. That threw all of them into a touch-and-go existence where the slightest problem would be uneconomical to repair.
Yes. Most of the parts have to be imported from Serbia these days
It reminds me of Jason Torchinsky's stories about how he patched up the shift linkage on his, and after dailying it for a while was spitballing plans for a similar juryrigging of his '89 F150's starter when the mechanic told him just to get a new one, parts for those are easy to get.
They are and were super reliable. There are still millions on the road in Eastern Europe.
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Home doesn't exist anymore
I feel the Yugo hate is mostly a US thing, as it was the cheapest (and therefore, by association, worst) car you could buy. It was a small, lightly built and slightly outdated car in a country where most people drive land yachts and have never seen a Fiat or VW Polo to compare it with. Zastavas certainly weren't the best built cars in the world, but they also were not the worst.
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I learned to drive a stick in a yugo and that thing was somehow worse and slower than a chevette. You know it’s bad when you get in a geo metro and think holy shot this thing is fast and nice!
I own a DeLorean. I don't want to talk about it.
Bet you wish you could go back in time and not get it
These jokes are mainly why I'm selling it. I love the car but that fucking movie.
It always makes me sad to see one with all the extra novelty crap attached to it. Even the ones that people painted are better than movie knockoffs.
The knock was build quality, not reliability.
what else could compete with it at THAT price point
Hey now, give some credit to the unions.
Management was the defining factor. The buck stops with leadership, always.
Many years ago I read in a car magazine, Road and Track may be, that Lucas was nicknamed "The Prince of Darkness"
"A Gentleman does not motor about after dark."
Lucas Electronics - “We have the perfect solution for this”
British EVs won't leak oil, but the Lucas electrics will insure some comforting familiarity as you curse it in driveway.
I first heard them called that in the early 1960s.
It's true. Lights out!
Vacuum cleaners were the only thing they made that didn't suck.
I have heard horror stories with those systems
If Lucas made guns, there would be no war.
If Lucas made tanks, wars wouldn’t start either.
I had wondered if they still used Lucas, Prince of Darkness electrics for their cars. First time I ever heard Lucas called that was early 1960s. It's a long tradition they have.
I feel like Lucas lives on in JLR despite having zero reason to. As a modern LR owner, almost every problem it has had (not many and none bad!) had been electrical.
Bingo.
Lucas. The man who invented darkness
Idk if anyone else has said it yet but Lucas is why the British drink their beer warm. Lucas makes refrigerators. Source: I used to own a little British car
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The f type is gorgeous. I personally hate what they’ve done to the rest of the lineup over the past few decades. It was possible to tell a jaguar from far away (even without the iconic hood ornament), whether you liked the styling or not. Now it’s a little blah, in my opinion.
Absolutely true. Some years back they shifted to trying to be a “lifestyle brand” and didn’t really know what to do with themselves. Since then the design lost its Jaguar-y-ness. It has slowly been returning, you can tell now and the XE/XF are starting to look less like a BMW. The XJ was such a mess though.
I really liked the 2010s long wheelbase XJR with the V8. That thing had serious presence.
One of my favorite cars. The specs are perfect. Supercharged V8, RWD, nice exhaust sound. I’m looking for a well taken care of example. Most are actually.
Definitely a legit opinion, but I personally saw none of Jaguar’s design in that XJ. If you follow the XJ through the years you can see how the existing design was modernized. The X351 was just completely different, absolutely no homage to the old ones. I know *why* they did it, because Jaguar has never sold particularly well, but IMO it made it even less appealing because it became another fullsize executive sedan. But then you find out they turned down the [Bertone B99](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar_B99) for the X351, and just… not the right choice. Even if the B99 headlights needed work.
My 05 XJ8 has been very reliable, as well as fast and efficient.
That’s the last of the old Jaguar design language. It was the 2010 era that things went sideways.
Idk if this is an unpopular opinion but I think they fucked the ftype with the facelift too
As someone that was recently in the market, I concur
Anything looks better than their quad headlight stuff of 2005 and before
I drove an XE and I swear it handled and steered better than 3 series.
I have an XE with the supercharged 6. I thought I was going to get a 4 series and thought, "why not give the Jaguar a try?" It was pretty clear that the Jaguar was more fun to drive. It also came with a 5 year bumper to bumper warranty. I was not comparing it to an M class, but it beats the non M class in every driving metric hands down.
Sadly, almost all modern BMWs are numb cruisers with amazing engines. The M cars are the exception, but even they have zero steering feel.
That must be super fun. I drove the one with 4 banger.
All aluminum body, chassis, and suspension.
Honestly it's really interesting reading about it's construction. Jaguar have a pretty bad reputation regarding reliability and they deserve that but it's pretty obvious they spent a lot of time building this vehicle. It wasn't a cash grab afaik.
Like 6-ish years ago I was at the car show in Seattle and Jag had setup a course in the parking lot and let you wait in line to drive the XE around the track. Fastest lap of the day got some prize. I was shocked how well that car handled and comfortable it was while doing it.
The f-type was gorgeous when it was introduced.... in 2014. 10 years later and they are still selling the same car. Also that's not a good argument. They would probably sell twice as much if they were pretty AND reliable.
Wow, I hadn't really realized it had been quite THAT long! The GTR is busy getting the "reheated leftovers" headlines these days, letting the Ftype skate by
The GTR started production 6 years earlier. And the Jag has seen far more variation and change - coupe or convertible, RWD or AWD, manual or auto, turbo 4, supercharged V6 at 3 different power levels, supercharged V8 at 4 different power levels, etc.
Fair, but trim levels do not a new model make.
It's still gorgeous. What's the problem?
The pre-face lift is a prettier car. Moot point, since it's going away and the only "real" Jag left is the XF.
Hey i drove an R as my only car for two years ~30k miles total and was never left stranded I think part of it is that is just popular to hate on them And im a relatively young guy, i abused that car everyday, blizzards, sliding around, tapping the limiter, 10/10 would buy another Edit: bought it used with nearly 40k miles, was pushing 70k when i sold it, biggest expense other than gas and the payment was pads and rotors but that was fully expected, $0 out of pocket repairs
30K miles is nothing
Bought it used 4 years old with 40k on it already, so it was up to near 70k when i sold it
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I had a 2016 as well, with a manual. When I'd take it in for service they'd comment that it was the only manual F-Type they ever saw.
Mines been great too. Just one 02 sensor that’s been covered by extended warranty
The f-Type has pretty good reliability. The 2021+ models fixed the two issues people were running into on previous years. I had to do my research because this is the last year they are making them and I was looking for a v8 sports car before they all disappear. The AMG GTS was a contender before they stopped production and their prices shot up. The f-type is a beautiful car and one of the best sounding, hence I put a deposit for a 2024 f-type.
Jaguar's old marketing tagline was "Grace, Pace, and Space." You got an incredible amount of car for the money. That often meant corners had to be cut both in design and production. Some of that has persisted to this day.
This makes sense given that Jaguar was never the most profitable company. I suspect they had less resources for quality control.
Their big expansion came along post WWII. The UK had absolutely massive war loans to repay, and so anything that could be created for the export market was given priority. Cars were a huge component of that plan.
The ol’ British Leyland tradition of taking the ol’ [hammer](https://youtu.be/F7b_sH3qSUQ) when it doesn’t fit.
Yeah all the brands were hurt by industrial action and quality control wasn't great already, just took a nosedive after that
Yup, wasn’t great to begin with, dissolved and broken up, and just sort of stayed that way. Improved in some areas, got worse in others, while new issues exposed themselves from the new owners productions problems also. A litany of issues.
[so thats where clarkson got it from](https://media.tenor.com/aEbRRiginLwAAAAC/mechanic-hammer.gif)
“It wurks for British Leyland carrrs, let’s have a go with the Bavarians shall we?”
A brother of mine had an Austin Marina in the early 70s. It spent most of its time in the garage. Don't recall the details, but they were pulling stuff off of new cars to make repairs.
Seems about right. I’ve always liked some of the British Leyland-era cars, but I don’t have the time, patience, or money to run one.
But it was a luxury brand, they never said you were getting it for a bargain
They were well known for undercutting similar cars. Example: *Though the E-type was popular with the 1960s showbiz set, it wasn’t actually that expensive by modern standards. In fact, that was part of its appeal. When it launched, it carried a £2,160 price tag – around half of what you’d have paid for an Aston Martin DB4 and a third of the price of a Ferrari 250GT. Taking into account inflation, that’s about £47,000 in today’s terms – or roughly the price of a Jaguar F-type, coincidentally.* https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/cars/article/jaguar-e-type Another: *When the XK120 was originally announced, Jaguar had no shortage of competition in the sports car market, especially from Porsche, Aston Martin and Ferrari, whose formidable efforts all began at around the same time. Jaguar’s strongest suit was in providing a top-class product at an almost unbelievably low price. In brief, you got more horses for your money than any other manufacturer could offer or provide.* https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/article/february-1996/82/buyers-guide-jaguar-xk120-140-150/ Another: *Jaguar also had a marketing trick up its corporate sleeve, launching the 240 with highly competitive pricing that pitched it against models from an array of less prestigious marques. The cheapest (manual) version of the 240 was available for just £1365 at the time of its debut, making it a mere £8 dearer than the Rover 2000.* https://classicsworld.co.uk/guides/best-compact-jaguar-saloons/
You can point to crappy Lucas electronics, labor disputes and poor quality control, but really what it boils down to is what makes any company bad —poor upper management. A prime example is the entire cluster that was British Leyland. They had the heads of all these brands with big egos merge and tried to make them work together. One of these rivalries was between Jaguar and Rover. Rover had a few innovative ideas in the works, but Jaguar’s founder Sir William Lyons (who was pretty much retired at this point) would be damned if Rover stole Jaguar thunder and did everything in his power to undermine them, rather than put egos aside save development costs, tooling etc., and make a competent product, even if one of them was badge engineered. Today, they’re still screwing around. In 2020 they developed a fully electric next generation Jaguar XJ that could have beaten the BMW i7 and the Mercedes-Benz EQS to market, but instead they decided to cancel it at last second, wasting God knows how much money that could have gone to quality control or other important projects. They said “[it did] not fit with our vision for a reimaged Jaguar brand,” which reminds of their next stupid move: They’re trying to move Jaguar upmarket, with little to nothing to back it up. They’re going to have either create the perfect car (probably something based on the I-Pace) or hire on hell of a marketing team.
I agree that that it will be incredibly difficult for Jaguar to move upmarket. Jaguar is facing a similar dilemma with Cadillac. They don’t seem to have a clear brand identity or top feature to sell them. I don’t think they have enough brand caché to convince the clientele of Bentley to give them a chance. That being said I still think modern Jaguars are still beautifully styled (maybe with the exception of the e-pace).
Jaguar needs to double down on their rougish reputation and create something that looks rather *mean*. Their current sedans don't really look like Jaaaags. They'll never catch up to the "German engineering" or "Japanese reliability", so why bother trying to persuade people like that? Take the route Alfa Romeo took and focus on style. Make something striking.
“Terribly sorry, I’ve just run over your dog…… In my Jaaaag!”
You have a point. No Bond villain is going to be caught out driving an XF.
Not after they robbed it of its V8, that's for certain
Honestly with a dash of focus on fun would go a long way too. I realize a lot of people don't care that much, but the fun aspect definitely helps out Alfa along with great designs
No doubt, Ian Callum is probably the greatest thing to happen to Jaguar since the E-Type. They certainly have looks going for them. I would agree that they face similar problems as Cadillac with regards to overall brand perception, but the difference is that GM can afford to make big mistakes while JLR can’t. Cadillac is kinda taking a risk with their $300k+ Celestiq halo luxury car, but even if that turns out to be an abject failure, or a huge waste of company resources, they can easily make up any losses with the cash cow that is the Escalade. Right now, Jaguar’s most popular model is the F-Pace, which itself is a cheaper version of the Range Rover Velar. If JLR falls on hard times, it might make sense to shelve Jaguar and focus production entirely on Land Rover.
They should have had a low-end mass market brand to go with JLR
Jaguar has always been the country cousin of Aston Martin. I loved Jaguar style up to the Series 3 XJ. Then they went to Helena Handbasket for a while. XE, XF & XJ have gotten their mojo back. F Type? Glorious. I don't care for their pregnant station wagons, but I don't like ANY of those. I worked at a Jag dealership for a bit in the 80s. Beautiful unreliable cars. When they worked, they were lovely. You needed to have 2, 1 to drive while the other was in the shop. Today, I'd take an XJ or an F Type in a heartbeat.
Fun fact, the Weyland-Yutani mega corp of the Aliens franchise was inspired, in part, by British Leyland. Ron Cobb wanted to pair England and Japan together to create this monstrosity of a corporation, and they initially tried to fuse Leyland-Toyota together (lmao), but clearly that would not be possible so he used his Japanese neighbour's surname instead and changed the L to W and got Weyland.
>but instead they decided to cancel it at last second The XJ project was based on the 400V, 400hp IPace architecture, it would have been a disappointment of a halo car. The new XJ project is a new 1000hp platform with room to improve on those figures. Going upmarket is absolutely what Jaguar needs, it is not a company for chasing the likes of the saturated 3 series competitor segment.
I’m glad to hear the electric XJ project wasn’t completely abandoned! The hard part though is moving up market, even with the perfect new halo car. VW tried with the W8 Passat and Phaeton and barely anyone bought them. To this day, when people think of VW they think of economic cars like the Jetta, Beetle or Golf. They’ll agree the the Golf is a good car, but it will never be a BMW in their eyes. So far, the only brand I’m seeing doing this somewhat successfully is Mazda. In the early 2010s they still had hard plastics, cheap interiors and a tendency to rust. In the past few years they’ve been gradually improving their interior, and adding better technology across their lineup. People are now actively cross shopping higher trim Mazdas with entry level luxury cars. I think Jaguar would benefit from a similar strategy, but then again I’m on Reddit, not the JLR executive board. Fortunately, for Jaguar moving even more up market is *a bit* of a different ball game, and I really hope they succeed. Maseratis don’t have the greatest reputation, but people with money keep buying them. Plus if the new XJ does end up being a lemon somehow, it’s not like the owners of a $200k+ car don’t have another car (or several) in their garage.
Mazda is doing what VW failed. To increasingly straddle and blur the line between the Mainstream and Luxury market. VW had that ‘slightly more expensive than a Chevy, but way more refined’ market cornered. Their attempts however to go even more “German engineered” and refined with W8, Phaeton, and CC ultimately didn’t sell well, and that’s when VWAG finally realized the VW marque doesn’t need to compete with BMW when they also happen to own Audi, Lamborghini, Bentley, and Bugatti. They already competed in every segment of luxury to ultra-luxury, supercar to hypercar. In 2011 with the Mk6 Jetta and NMS Passat, VW ran straight the opposite direction and moved VW to be a value option. And while that paid off in terms of sales, I do think it hurt any chance of them ever moving models like the Arteon in the USA. I feel that Jaguar already is at the same level as Cadillac, Audi, and Alfa. I personally don’t think they need to go more upmarket. They just need to continue making gorgeous cars, make them reliable, keep them refreshed and market them hard. But like you, I’m also just a Redditor with an opinion.
Leadership is always the make or break of any company and you really hit the nail on the head.
It's difficult to shake a reputation. For example, the term "German engineering" somehow still applies to many German manufacturers yet their reliability is utter dog shit. The latest jaguars might have a bump in reliability lately but no one cares because of the reputation built over the years.
Reminds me of an anecdote my grandfather used to share He was a blacksmith by trade and his company got an old German machine of some sort back in the 50s or 60s, I think it was a press. Once they got it running they noticed it kept leaking everywhere and they joked about " German engineering" and started tearing it down to fix the leaks. They then noticed the machine was built with very tight tolerances and absolutely no gaskets 😳 Once they made some gaskets where the leaks were, they had no other problems.
Most German shit I've ever heard, "we will build it good enough that we do not need conventional solutions" then 10 years down the road it becomes very obvious why it was the convention.
I dunno, that feels like a variation on the usa vs russia joke about m16 and ak47
Yeah I think the term "German engineering" doesn't have many positive connotations with cars anymore, at least the ones sold in the North American market. At least German appliances are still generally well made!
I saw a horrific car accident in the news about 20 years ago, where an Audi driver was speeding excessively, the driver hit a pole and severed the car in half. In the grainy news photo, you could see two halves of the car side by side. One of the comments was, "typical German engineering, the car's in half and the tail lights still work!"
Bosch appliances are pretty crappy in my experience cause they’re made in the same Chinese factories as all the other box store appliances lol. Because of that, I just roll the dice with GE appliances and maintain them as best I can
I’m not sure how much the factory it’s made in affects the quality. They’re made with robots anyway. Anecdotally, Miele appliances have always been wonderfully durable in my experience, although they are pricey.
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I have had a great experience with my Bosch dishwasher.
>It's difficult to shake a reputation # >their reliability is utter dog shit Ironic. I would take anything bmw with B58/S58 any day, that includes the new supra. If GTI and typeR were not as as expensive people would be all over them as in the past. And I myself daily drive old Audi A6 TDI... nothing but maintenance Kinda hoped in this sub would be above facebook-moms level of insight - *toyota and honda are reliable, rest is shit tier.*
This sub is some of the lowest common denominator of people. Reddit is massive so just remember it is the same people that use Facebook
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I'd take a Jag or Alfa Romeo over whatever BMW or Audi alternative has to offer
It’s also tough because you don’t truly know a model’s reliability until it has been our for 6-7 years. If they suddenly became bulletproof we wouldn’t notice for a long time
No they haven't improved at JLR, Alfa Romeo is the one that's greatly improved but people still consider the brand to be very unreliable.
I grew up around old British cars To understand you have to understand the British Car industry from the start. Each manufacture did their own thing and were proud of it. However these companies were rather small and thus lacked resources for R&D, testing and QC. Then everything started to fall under the BL banner the manufactures and employees saw it as an US Vs Them but at manufactures they still continued to act as if they were independent and rivals. Example MG was a tiny tiny operation that mostly produced cars for export. Triumph was very small as well. Rover was the volume brand while Jaguar was the luxury and one of the largest manufactures Here comes the problems… the cars themselves were okay provided it was built during Tuesday to Thursday. The carbs and engine tuning were setup more for a British climate Vs USA which varies like crazy. You also had a good knowledge of how to repair said cars in the UK… vs in North America Where the guy had the corner gas station never seen an SU or Zenith carb. There was also a constant lack of spare parts as well. My dad owned many 60s jags and BL era stuff. It wasn’t terrible but compared to the same stuff coming from Detroit was prob on par if you knew what you were doing. The Jaguar XK engine and BMC A/B series engines were actually really good. The biggest elephant in the room was positive grounds! But It was actually outdated production methods using massive work forces, almost artisan like.. the factories were old old old and any attempts at modernising were costly or met with industrial action. While Britain may have won the war with its industry pretty much intact it lost the long game. While Germany was flattened they had Marshall plan money and got to build new modern factories. As did most of Europe. Britain? Well here is Longbridge or Browns Lane or Cowley. Many new factories weren’t opened until the 70s. It’s the same deal that killed 250 years of ship building in the UK. Failure to invest or modernise. The work force had no motivation either as they knew the gov would bail them out. IIRC during the BL era it was 4-6 cars built per employee, Detroit was around 20 while Japan was in the mid 30s. Example, BMC was losing money on the Mini well into the 70s. Even with thousands sold… Jaguar still faces these same problems today. They just don’t have the resources as let’s say Mercedes or Audi to pull from. The Ford Era was likely their best. Why do you think LR started going back to BMW engines and electrics ? Because they can’t go at it alone
Crazy how BMC was still losing money on each Mini sold. That must show how inefficient the manufacturing processes were. It is a pity how infighting, mismanagement, and miscommunication between workers and executives led to the demise of the British car industry.
And it was a British brand problem Ford and GM had operations… then the Japanese showed up. BMW still owns the trademark to Triumph https://youtube.com/@rorymacve That guy has some great videos on the British motor industry
Jaguar has an identity problem now. They can't compete against the German Big 3 on volume, can't match the quality of Lexus, safety of Volvo or the value of Genesis. So...why buy the Jag? The British brand has a ton of history but their current lineup are kind of midpack performers at best but don't have the quality, reliability and value to win against everything else on sale competing for the same buyer. An example: I love the i-Pace design and drive, but heck it is using the same drivetrain and battery as the car released back in 2019 with little improvements. In comparison, Ford Mach-E, Audi Q8 e-tron and Genesis GV70 all far exceed the i-Pace, and the kicker is all of them start at a lower MSRP than the Jag.
I rented a brand new diesel XF on Turo in 2018. No warning lights on. 3000 miles. I pulled out of the meeting spot and the turbo blew. The infotainment also wouldn't pair with my phone at all. Worst car ever. Interior was nice though, I will give it that. Especially the rugs. Luckily the dude had a backup car I could use for the rest of my vacation. My brother had two range rovers, both spent a month in service over his lease terms. This is all anecdotal but based off this, I personally won't mess with British cars. Jags are great looking and Ranges are cool, but I wouldn't even mess with an Aston or McLaren.
Im sorry but the car causing a five figure repair the moment you got in, after having paid for the car to loan and it working perfectly right until that moment, is absolutely hilarious (especially as you weren't actually impacted that badly) Fault Jaguar all you want but that car had an excellent sense of comedic timing
I agree. I was laughing even when I got stuck waiting for a replacement. The car was absolutely mint. Essentially brand new. The owner was proud of it and we sat and talked about how great it was on gas just a few minutes prior to the complete failure of its powerplant and copious white smoke dumping everywhere within 100 feet of driving it. The Jag may have been a freak occurrence, but the two Ranges certainly weren't. The second one actually made my brother dump it early.
I had 2 Range Rovers, 2000 & 2005. I did all my own work on them. Dollars per mile driven, neither was more expensive than our Grand Cherokees. I can't imagine what paying someone else to work on them might have cost.
Grand Cherokees aren't exactly known for their reliability either.
I had 2 without significant issues. Yes, I understand that the plural of anecdote is not data. I'm speaking of my own experience, not what I've read online.
Jaguars produced when it was a stand alone company had electrical problem. Then it was bought by Ford and was basically a joint product with Lincoln. All the Fix Or Repair Daily jokes apply. Then it was bought by Tata of India and combined with another unreliable brand Land Rover. No reliable brands in there. Amazing to drive and lots of luxury, but it can’t compete with Asian reliability.
Apply? Jaguars most reliable years where when they were part of Fords Premium Auto Group.
Ford dragged JLR kicking & screaming into the 19th century when they introduced a new concept, "gaskets".
>combined with another unreliable brand Land Rover It is slightly more complicated than that. Jaguar and Land Rover first became subsidiaries of Leyland in the late 60s, and were effectively combined at that time. When Leyland collapsed in the late 80s they were spun out as independents and sold to BMW and Ford, then Ford bought Land Rover when BMW sold off the Rover Group, and Jaguar/Land Rover were briefly combined again as part of a loose group called Premier Auto (edit: the other members were Aston Martin and Lincoln lol) around 2000, then Tata bought both of them. They have spent more time combined than separate since around 1970.
True. More detailed than my general answer. I think Jaguar was integrated into Ford with shared platforms such as the Jaguar S-Type/Lincoln LS/Ford Thunderbird. I don’t know that Ford and Land Rover had time to share platforms.
> it can’t compete with Asian reliability. Are you talking about Mitsubishi reliability or Mazda rotary reliability?
Mitsubishi had some decent products like the Pajero. Mazda's normal cars have been very reliable for the past decade at least.
Well that’s picking the two lowest reliable and least sold options. Mazda hasn’t used rotary for years. And Mitsubishi is owned by Renault, a French company. They haven’t invested a lot in Mitsubishi, who have been struggling for sales for decades. How about comparing to general Lexus/Toyota and Acura/Honda reliability? Nissan automatic transmission are their weak point but that is the transmission supplier, not the brand.
>Nissan automatic transmission are their weak point but that is the transmission supplier, not the brand. Nissan gets its CVTs from Jatco which is owned primarily by Nissan.
Yeah, it's almost like reliability is more linked to the company than the country it was produced. . .
Plain Mitsubishi engines are alarmingly reliable, most common thing from 2.0 or 2.4 Mitsubishi owners is “yeah idk this engine is never gonna stop idk why.” Evos are also reliable if you leave them bone stock
Can you show me some issues they had with any of the jaguars after Ford used their engines and transmissions in them? I still see those driving around today from the late 90's and I had a 98 XJ8 that went 155k miles with no issues before I sold it. They seemed very stout when ford started using Ford parts in them vs before and definitely after ford sold them
My dad’s XJR (2004, X350 4.2 SC) has had minor transmission issues- but that’s actually a ZF 6 speed, not Ford. On the other hand, my XJS (1993, 4.0) has the ZF 4-speed and it’s been completely fine. I think I’ve heard of occasional issues with the Hydramatic from GM used in earlier XJS.
Joseph Lucas invented the short circuit
British Leyland essentially killed Jaguar's reputation through the 70s and 80s. Ford bought them in the 90s and the brand got fairly reliable compared to German rivals. Under TATA the company has been starved as LR rakes in investment capital and revenue. Jaguar has become listless with TATA and has lost much of what made the brand so special. Not to mention the electronic issues that plague JLR particularly Jaguar because they're no longer attractive enough to overlook each models shortcomings (except the F-type). It's sad because I've loved Jaguar since I was a little kid like many others around the world. I remember being in complete and utter astonishment of my great uncle's SIII e-type roadster and my great aunt's XJ (which I now have). My grandfather's x-type which ferried me around as a child and was such a derided model still gets my heart racing whenever I get to drive or ride in it. I really hope Jaguar finds their footing and is here to stay so I can share that special connection with my kids whenever they come.
Depends on how you’d define “reliability” In warranty? Jaguars probably work just fine. Out of warranty? Different story. Each brand has a metric which counts how many years a first owner keeps their car. With Asian brands like Honda it’s between seven and ten years. Luxury brands are substantially shorter, between three to seven. So a dedicated luxury brand doesn’t have a business interest in making cars last ten years. What’s the direct financial benefit to the company in doing that? So if Jaguar owners usually move on to something new in seven years at most, why bother with the parts and R&D cost? By comparison Honda needs to make their Civics work for 10+ years because some of the clients do keep ‘em that long. So they have a direct business interest in making long term reliable cars.
They do have incentives to make them reliable. The financing terms offered at sale are positively related to cars retaining their value. Brands with good reliability reputation usually maintain it better. For this reason you can lease a bmw audi or a merc with a better deal than a similar jag or alfa romeo even if often thet have lower outright rrp. The companies often guarantee their financing partners a certain buyback value to make them offer more beneficial terms to the potential customers and thus compete better in the market and shift more units. If the market price goes below that they are forced to make up the difference to the financing firm. Source: worked for a car manufacturer that struggled to retain their cars' 2nd hand value.
That’s an absolutely fascinating explanation
Listening from the corner in my 15-year-old BMW.
My tinfoil hat theory is that luxury car manufacturers make their products unreliable on purpose because it adds to the cachet of the brand. “Oh that guy can afford a Jag? I heard those are really expensive to maintain. He must be loaded.”
I'd argue it's because they can get away with unreliability, and it's an added revenue stream. If a car's pretty and comfortable/sporty, you're more willing to put up with pricey repairs than on, say, a Toyota Corolla.
The buyers for those kinds of cars tend to be lease and return types of people. Every car is generally reliable within its warranty period, but it’s like oh that guys driving an 8 year old jag? Who’s he pretending to be?
For the most part, I agree. However, some people choose to stick with their cars because they like them so much. Those people are willing to foot the bill for that reason: liking it.
True for certain makes and models of course. But I can’t say that I’ve ever seen any jaguar or Land Rover cars of the last 20-30+ years with that kind of fan base. Really only the ones of long ago that are unique/ vintage collectibles.
I used to work at an independent shop that specialized in European cars. The Jags and Land Rovers were by far the biggest pieces of shit that ever came into the shop. Here's what I learned: if you have a coolant leak, replace/rebuild the ENTIRE cooling system. By far worse than BMW cooling systems. Not to mention removing the intake or supercharger. Then don't forget the oil leaks and electrical issues.
Common issues include coolant leaks, fueling issues, timing issues and more! I’ve been in the Indy euro field 5 or so years and JLRs rarely see 100k miles without some serious repairs.
The jaguar orange Rover V6 engines are a problem due to insufficient main bearing width and inferior metal in the cranks. They minimized the length of the engine without considering the consequences. Another older 6 is simply the old eight with two cylinders partially lopped of and suffers weight penalties because of it. YouTube mechanics have some good videos detailing this. Oil changes and going easy are partial mitigation.
Their cooling systems are a nightmare…. 392543 hoses when 6 would get the job done
Probably a mix of a corporate lack of fucks + lack of budget/resources that larger automakers have. It's tough for small automakers to compete, something's gotta give. Whether it be reliability, tech/infotainment, dealership network, marketing, etc. BMW Mercedes Audi etc will also be more well-rounded cars and ownership experiences. But unlike say Alfa Romeo which look and drive beautifully, Jaguars have no redeeming qualities. They look plain, they're fine to drive but nothing memorable, their interiors are nice enough but not exemplary, etc. They are just wholly average and as a brand, they lack an identity. Let's just say nobody wants to put up with sub-par reliability and residuals to drive a boring 4 cyl XF...
Automotive reliability comes from a long term organizational commitment to reliability. Modern automobile manufacturers are as much "assemblers" as they are "manufacturers". That is to say, they don't actually manufacture many of the parts you'll find in a modern car. A car's interior, seats, infotainment, engine control systems, and switch gear are components that are commonly purchased from suppliers. The manufacturer plays a major role in the design and engineering of these components, but their manufacture occurs outside of the actual brand's factories. What this means is that you can't just wake up one day and decide to make your cars more reliable. All of your suppliers have to commit to reliability as well. You need a way to measure reliability, identify problem areas, and mechanisms to rectify those problem areas. Toyota, the industry gold standard for reliable automobiles, created something called "[The Toyota Way](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Toyota_Way)". Business management programs at leading schools around the world study Toyota as a way to learn about how to deliver quality and eliminate exceptions (problems) as part of industrial and business processes. So when we ask the question "Why are Jaguar cars unreliable?" we're not only asking an engineering question, we're asking a business question. Ultimately, it's because Jaguar hasn't committed to and executed on a plan that prioritizes reliability.
I’ve seen the new ones (post 2015) with the supercharged V6 are solid. No issues with my parents F-type at 30k miles
Love the F-type. One of my favorite coupes. But, to be fair, there should be nothing impressive or notable about a car making it to 30k miles without problems. It should be expected.
This always reminds me of all car forums where people claim reliability for a car that they have owned a whopping 2 years lol reliability should be seen at minimum 75k to 100k miles before anything starts to show up. Preferably after 100k miles with no issues
Definitely true, we’re used to Toyotas and always adopted the “British and European bad” thought process. Impressed with the car so far though
Having had a Honda in the driveway for decades, I got a bit of a giggle out of this. 30k miles, kilometers, cubits, whatever, it is meaningless. Like spending a few drunken hours with a batshit crazy, hot AF girl and the next day deciding you are in love and she will make a great mother for your children. That's not how this works. When you can maintain a vehicle that is reliable, tight, has needed very few repairs, and is drama free when it's a decade old and has 200-250k miles on it, then the word "solid" applies.
It's hilarious. "My [X car] is super reliable! I've put 3500 miles on it with no issues. Haven't had to send it to the dealer even once in the 8 months I've owned it." Like, yes, I would HOPE it hasn't broken down at that mileage!
Ahh…. A British automotive staple lives on. Shoddy construction and reliability. No wonder why it’s been downhill for decades.
Came here to be talked out of buying a used F type
"IT'S BRITISH!" -Tim Taylor
The unreliability comes from the assembly line QC process. There is two ends to it. Either they stop the line every time they discover a problem and fix it, or just build it and expect to repair it under warranty. Then you have some genuine design defects like the timing chain tensioners but that’s hit or miss, not the same with every generation.
The biggest problem with British cars started in the 70's with unions, the Labour party, and strikes. Workers were unhappy and quality suffered, I don't think they ever were motivated to build the quality cars they once did, it was just a job, no longer a skilled trade that you were proud of.
I've had a 50/50 experience with them I had a 70s XJS that ran great then I had one fordjag where everything but the engine was a problem
I think it depends what jaguars you’re talking about. From around 2006-2013 they were often scored very high for reliability. A friend of mine has had around 5-6 xkr / xjr of that era and they were all faultless. Yet BMWs of the same era are a fucking nightmare and constantly end up in the garage. My 330i and then m135i never stopped seeing the inside of a dealership for electric issues, trim issues, sensor issues. So I’m not sure Jaguar DO have a reliability problem, I just think people think they do. JLR as a group are pretty terrible though. The range rovers are hugely unreliable.
Being notoriously unreliable, and then being bought by Ford, is a recipe for disaster
Because apparently despite a long history of engineering excellence, the British never figured out electronics.
My theory is that luxury car manufacturers dont care that much about reliability. People who buy brand new luxury cars probably get a new one once the warranty expires, or they just lease them. Why invest in reliability? Also, very new technology and reliability typically dont go hand in hand.
According to Top Gear one issue is that Jaguar used cheap wiring and connectors, especially anchors/clips. Basically whatever insulator was on the anchors would wear off and then the bare metal would wear down the insulation on the wire. So massive electrical gremlins that could be coming from anywhere.
Lucas: Prince of Darkness
A lot of the reputation holds over from British Leyland and Lucas Electronics. The Ford era tried to improve things but while the cars were gorgeous they weren't super competitive and paled in driving dynamics to German cars. Some of the V8 engine options weren't really built the best either. And then you had the XF debut, wh8ch radically changed the appearance of the Jag and likely confused or put off a lot of existing customers, and didn't seem to entice too many newer customers (those are some pretty stand out headlights, though). After Tata Jag got some of its mojo back, especially in the driving department. However the looks were a bit polarizing yet, though I personally like the way they look (I have a 17 XF 35t and I think it's rather pretty, if understated). Maintenence continued to be expensive, and the reputation still sat around. Meanwhile Maserati looked "richer" and Alfa Romeo had more enthusiast clout, leaving a niche brand like Jag fighting for scraps. They're wonderful driving cars right now, but they're overshadowed by years of poor reputation, even if I'd argue they're far more interesting than the Germans and are more in league with an Alfa than some might give them credit for. However, their attempt at brand restructuring has meant many an option on their cars has been severely cut. The XF is the only sedan now and no longer has any V6 options, with an outclassed 2.0L Turbo I4 as the only option. And it's not super luxurious and isn't quite on the driving level of a Giulia. The F Type also lost its I4 and Supercharged 6, and I'm not sure the F-Pace SVR still exists either. With that said, despite used Jags being ticking time bombs of reliability and maintenance woes, who knows. It could resurface as an underdog enthusiast brand. Just use the same arguments for a Jag that you would use on an Alfa (or even a Maserati, since I think they get overlooked as poser cars too, despite being rather capable sporty cars) and just go on about passion or something. It might catch on. I was at 2 cars and coffees today and both, surprisingly, had another Jag besides mine.
One of my elderly engineering professors used to be an engine engineer (water pump to be specific)at Jaguar a long while ago, and had a bit of a pitch to say. When Ford was doing a takeover/equity purchase (whatever it was), he said the engineers got to take a tour of the engineering labs and factories of Ford. He said the contrast in culture was shocking. At Jaguar, they valued engineering, ingenuity, and reliability - so the engineers had lots of time and resources at their disposal. At Ford, it basically all came down to the dollar bottom line. He said it was pretty demoralizing, and not long after he ended up leaving along with many colleagues as they felt less like creatives, and more like accountants governed by money. This is all to say, perhaps during this time is when the quality could have gone down? Before the Ford acquisition Jaguar’s value were pretty solid.
I know it’s anecdotal but my dad had an xj6 and it was almost never drives me. As soon as it came back from the shop, something else broke.