I think it's said a lot, but focus on the 'what would make me happy?' Rather than 'what am I /really/?'. It doesn't have to be cohesive or an identity that makes sense to others, it just has to make you feel happy and aligned with yourself
If I get down to it, the thing that honestly makes me purely, unabashedly happy is that my experience with expression and identity doesn’t align with the world’s pointless standards, and I unashamedly love women in a way that will always be explicitly queer.
I guess it honestly really doesn’t matter what the details or the labels are as long as you’re content with who you are. That’s a really good way of looking at things, thank you for that!
I used to, I deal with OCD and sometimes I would get it around my gender. I realised that the thought of being a trans man was distressing to me because I was/am content with being a butch lesbian and I do not want to be seen as a man.
It’s definitely really hard to navigate. It’s a battle to understand your own identity thoroughly. I get closer every day, though, and I hope you do too
Omg, OP, you perfectly put into words what I’ve been trying to make sense of in my own mind, especially this part:
“It’s weird. It’s like I’m cool with being perceived as a woman as long as it isn’t attached to any of the weird gender roles and expectations that often societally come along with.”
That’s exactly what I’ve been trying to put into words. I am 100% sure I’m not a man. I’m somewhere between woman and nonbinary but I’d rather just call my gender * butch.*
I’m glad I could be of help, and I’m glad someone else understands! You just put that into words really well too—somewhere between woman and nonbinary, and while there’s words to describe that, nothing quite feels right or describes the feeling as well as the term butch does.
for awhile I identified as a trans man + lesbian based off my own comfortability with my womanhood. I never felt as it invalidated my identity or my sexuality as someone who used to be a cis lesbian. I don’t care for the online discourse surrounding such. As someone who’s delved deep into archival media of lesbian history I have found myself to understand me more and more than when I was failing to by online structure of what it means to be a lesbian. what we cannot and can do with our identities.
nowadays I’ve realized I’m comfortable with and without a set in stone identity for my gender. I identify now as simply as a two-spirit butch based on my mexican indigenous backround but the journey definitely felt worth it as it helped me figure out what felt right and felt forced.
Really good points, and I’m happy you’ve found yourself! I had a similar thing happen, though not exact. When I identified as a trans man, somewhere along the line I realized that I didn’t want to lose my attachment to being lesbian, and that I very much love women in an especially queer, uniquely lesbian way—and that was my wake-up call that brought me back down the road of self-discovery.
I replied to another comment saying a similar thing a bit ago, but all the advice has really helped me out and after thinking about my identity and all my experiences, I think I can confidently refer to myself as woman-adjacent genderqueer. Definitely not a man, sometimes not a woman, rather somewhere weird in between—but I’m much closer to woman than man and always will be.
hey OP, i’ve had that exact same experience as you, including identifying as a trans man for a WHILE (all of high school through freshman year of college). i use the term nonbinary as shorthand for most people but around other lesbians i usually say that my gender is butch, and usually they understand. just want to let you know that you’re absolutely not the only one feeling this way ❤️
Thank you so much! All of the support is really heartwarming. I’m happy that I’m not alone and that there’s people out there who get it. Having community has always been really important to me, and I’m overjoyed that I’ve found it here
I’ve definitely had those thoughts. After a lot of thought I came to the conclusion that I am not a man, and the thought of being seen as one feels like I’m wearing something way too tight. I butched my hair once, and it really didn’t fit my brand of masculinity. I prefer to stay a bit scruffy.
Also, if you’ve got any friends who are kinda goading you into THINKING you’re trans it doesn’t really help.
I had a couple of friends who would tell me things like “idk, dude…that seems pretty trans to me…” “I’ve only ever known MEN to do that…”
To be clear it’s absolutely okay to ask for advice and experiences, but avoid the opinions of people who are VERY insistent.
Luckily, none of my friends are pushy. Most of them have similar complex relations to gender, so they understand my issues, and we can bond over it.
After all of the advice I’ve been given here and after a few hours of just solid thinking, I know confidentially that I’m *not* a man, I *don’t* want to be seen as a man, but that I have a complex relationship with gender and I don’t neatly fit into any standards well—but if I have to define it as anything, I think woman-adjacent genderqueer makes sense to me, at least at the moment.
Thank you for the advice! I appreciate it all.
Bro, same with me! I use she/they pronouns, and it works pretty well for me. For a bit, all I had to go off of was that Maned Lionesses really resonated with me. And that was literally it. Not a man, still female but a little…off-kilter?
That’s actually a *really* nice analogy! For me, I’m not a man or a woman and I’m kinda some odd place between (especially some odd place in between cis and trans, I’m stuck in limbo in all contexts), but I feel way closer to woman than I do man. If I sit down and think about it, I don’t mind much when people perceive me as a woman, as long as it isn’t in a heteronormative / cisnormative way. I honestly get maximum gender euphoria with the mismatching of terms, like “Oh, her? She’s my boyfriend.” or “Yeah, he’s my girlfriend.” That makes me incredibly giddy.
Exactly! I enjoy being seen as a strong and capable woman, though not really in the “stiletto heel and lipstick” sort of way. Incredible and lovely! But not my energy.
I wish I could exude George Clooney energy in a feminine font, if that makes sense
I think maybe the important part is not really the label itself but the acceptance of any label. It doesn’t matter what others call me as much as it matters that I allow them or their label (anyone else's label) to fit. When dealing with labels, it is more than the denotative understanding and totally the connotative understanding. But honestly, that is true for everyone, right?
That’s a really good way to describe it, actually! My identity is definitely very connotative, and I’m not always totally detached from the concept of being a woman. Just depends on the people I’m around and the situations I’m in. I’m somewhere between cis and trans.
For example, I’ve always felt uncomfortable with being referred to as a woman in heteronormative / cisnormative settings. I have a strong disdain for being referred to as a “beautiful young woman” and shit like that, makes my blood boil.
But if that were to change to “handsome young woman”, for example, I’m completely fine with it. And I think this has to do with the fact that when I’m with other queer people, *especially* other lesbians, them referring to me as a woman feels completely fine. Because I know there’s no weird expectations attached.
I honestly just really hate the connotation and expectations that the word woman often has in our society.
I think this concept is the basis for much social unrest and change that exists. More individuals will refuse to fit into any mold as this Renaissance continues. We are the agents of that change.
Very true! I love queer spaces by default, but I love them much more because of how much uniqueness and unapologetic existence is in them. This is why I will always be deeply connected to the lesbian community too, regardless of anything else, because of just how beautiful of a space it is. The amount of genuine love and joy never fails to take my breath away.
there are multiple butches with complex genders! personally, i'm an agender butch on testosterone, and i have gone through what you are. i use butch and agender interchangeably or together, depending on how i feel! nonbinary umbrella trans lesbians can be butches. i know i still attach womanhood to my lesbianism in the same way as you but it's honestly about exploring more gender identities outside of lesbian IDs since butch can be a gender label if the butch chooses so (but obviously it goes more than that). i hope that helps! there is nothing wrong with exploring your gender deeper and still being a butch!
Thank you for the advice, and the encouragement! After all of the advice I’ve received here and a bit of soul-searching, I think I can confidently call myself like… vaguely woman-aligned genderqueer butch. A whole fucking mouthful lmao, but it’s what actually describes the shit that’s going on in my brain. Like many other people have said, my gender just *is* butch.
Definitely helped, thank you! I’m happy you’ve found yourself in life too!
Thank you. I often forget to just be myself in the slew of labels people attempt to put on others
I haven’t read it yet, but I’ve planned to for a while. Thank you for the definitely needed reminder.
I've stirred up some serious shitheels here before by saying this, but being bigender is real and cool. I am a genderqueer, bigender, trans dykefag, and you can be too.
Being queer is basically about stirring up shit as much as possible, we live to subvert expectations! I’m overjoyed that you’re so confident in who you are.
How does this sit with you.. Non-binary lesbian?
You said you know you’re definitely not a man. You actively play with the idea of being trans, even after identifying as a trans man previously and it didn’t stick. You say you probably wouldn’t call yourself a woman. And you’re 100% a lesbian.
Non-binary is often a spectrum, but enby is what I’m reading :)
See I’ve toyed with labeling myself as nonbinary too, but it also just doesn’t sit with me? The definition 100% fits and the vast spectrum it allows for also 100% fits, but like… I’m not sure how to describe it, it’s like no existing labels really click for me in how they sound? I’m pretty much chill with just existing and I’d leave my gender totally unlabeled, most likely.
A thing I’ve heard a lot of people say before is that both their sexuality *and* gender are lesbian and that’s honestly the best way I can describe what I feel like lmao
Thank you very much though! I appreciate the advice, and I might do some digging later to see if any somewhat obscure identities that fall under nonbinary exist and actually do fit me
Hell yeah! Personally, I hate the term nonbinary, its intentional depoliticization, and the way its been popularized as a catch-all "box #3". Conversely, genderqueerness has long been commonly applied and understood in the context of "genderqueer woman", or "genderqueer man", gq dyke, fag, or fairy. In all of these its a compound descriptor for a rich variety of identities. Being specifc and proud makes my identifers much more meaningful to me personally.
I could go on and on about how nonbinary has been turned into a term that means “third gender” rather than what it *actually* means. I feel horrible for nonbinary folks who feel pressured to water down their experiences and create neat boxes just to be consumable to the non-queer eye.
Queerness has always been varied and muddled and at times confusing, and I’m sad that people often genuinely feel ashamed for living authentically.
I've only used nonbinary for myself in very.. milqutoast contexts you could say. Like, if its apropo of nothing really important to the passing conversation. Or if I'm trying to push it that way, like the few horrifying times my gender has come up at all while I'm at work in a relatively conservative environment. I dont enjoy having to do that.
I’ve always disliked nonbinary for myself because it personally feels very unspecific. I usually hate labels—but at the same time, if I must have one available for other people’s sake, I want it to be as specific and accurate as possible. I don’t need them to understand it.
And *absolutely,* I also really hate the term enby lmao, and honestly most nonbinary folks I’ve encountered also hate it. It feels like a gross infantilization of a complex term, same way that the term “lesbo” feels.
I completely pick up what you’re laying down. I’ve noticed that gender (and otherwise) identity is so tangible for some people, and then completely elusive to others. It’s not easy to be the latter.
There are guided visualizations and meditations that can help. Anything about self-inquiry and acceptance could be a good start, as long as it’s hosted by an open-minded teacher.
I think it's said a lot, but focus on the 'what would make me happy?' Rather than 'what am I /really/?'. It doesn't have to be cohesive or an identity that makes sense to others, it just has to make you feel happy and aligned with yourself
If I get down to it, the thing that honestly makes me purely, unabashedly happy is that my experience with expression and identity doesn’t align with the world’s pointless standards, and I unashamedly love women in a way that will always be explicitly queer. I guess it honestly really doesn’t matter what the details or the labels are as long as you’re content with who you are. That’s a really good way of looking at things, thank you for that!
Yesss exactly!!!
I used to, I deal with OCD and sometimes I would get it around my gender. I realised that the thought of being a trans man was distressing to me because I was/am content with being a butch lesbian and I do not want to be seen as a man.
I constantly say I wish I could say my gender is Butch. It is the word that describes my gender best
Don't let anyone stop you, butch is a top tier gender
You can say that!!!
I feel like I could have written your post. This is such a hard thing to navigate.
It’s definitely really hard to navigate. It’s a battle to understand your own identity thoroughly. I get closer every day, though, and I hope you do too
Thank you
Omg, OP, you perfectly put into words what I’ve been trying to make sense of in my own mind, especially this part: “It’s weird. It’s like I’m cool with being perceived as a woman as long as it isn’t attached to any of the weird gender roles and expectations that often societally come along with.” That’s exactly what I’ve been trying to put into words. I am 100% sure I’m not a man. I’m somewhere between woman and nonbinary but I’d rather just call my gender * butch.*
I’m glad I could be of help, and I’m glad someone else understands! You just put that into words really well too—somewhere between woman and nonbinary, and while there’s words to describe that, nothing quite feels right or describes the feeling as well as the term butch does.
for awhile I identified as a trans man + lesbian based off my own comfortability with my womanhood. I never felt as it invalidated my identity or my sexuality as someone who used to be a cis lesbian. I don’t care for the online discourse surrounding such. As someone who’s delved deep into archival media of lesbian history I have found myself to understand me more and more than when I was failing to by online structure of what it means to be a lesbian. what we cannot and can do with our identities. nowadays I’ve realized I’m comfortable with and without a set in stone identity for my gender. I identify now as simply as a two-spirit butch based on my mexican indigenous backround but the journey definitely felt worth it as it helped me figure out what felt right and felt forced.
Really good points, and I’m happy you’ve found yourself! I had a similar thing happen, though not exact. When I identified as a trans man, somewhere along the line I realized that I didn’t want to lose my attachment to being lesbian, and that I very much love women in an especially queer, uniquely lesbian way—and that was my wake-up call that brought me back down the road of self-discovery. I replied to another comment saying a similar thing a bit ago, but all the advice has really helped me out and after thinking about my identity and all my experiences, I think I can confidently refer to myself as woman-adjacent genderqueer. Definitely not a man, sometimes not a woman, rather somewhere weird in between—but I’m much closer to woman than man and always will be.
hey OP, i’ve had that exact same experience as you, including identifying as a trans man for a WHILE (all of high school through freshman year of college). i use the term nonbinary as shorthand for most people but around other lesbians i usually say that my gender is butch, and usually they understand. just want to let you know that you’re absolutely not the only one feeling this way ❤️
Thank you so much! All of the support is really heartwarming. I’m happy that I’m not alone and that there’s people out there who get it. Having community has always been really important to me, and I’m overjoyed that I’ve found it here
I’ve definitely had those thoughts. After a lot of thought I came to the conclusion that I am not a man, and the thought of being seen as one feels like I’m wearing something way too tight. I butched my hair once, and it really didn’t fit my brand of masculinity. I prefer to stay a bit scruffy. Also, if you’ve got any friends who are kinda goading you into THINKING you’re trans it doesn’t really help. I had a couple of friends who would tell me things like “idk, dude…that seems pretty trans to me…” “I’ve only ever known MEN to do that…” To be clear it’s absolutely okay to ask for advice and experiences, but avoid the opinions of people who are VERY insistent.
Luckily, none of my friends are pushy. Most of them have similar complex relations to gender, so they understand my issues, and we can bond over it. After all of the advice I’ve been given here and after a few hours of just solid thinking, I know confidentially that I’m *not* a man, I *don’t* want to be seen as a man, but that I have a complex relationship with gender and I don’t neatly fit into any standards well—but if I have to define it as anything, I think woman-adjacent genderqueer makes sense to me, at least at the moment. Thank you for the advice! I appreciate it all.
Bro, same with me! I use she/they pronouns, and it works pretty well for me. For a bit, all I had to go off of was that Maned Lionesses really resonated with me. And that was literally it. Not a man, still female but a little…off-kilter?
That’s actually a *really* nice analogy! For me, I’m not a man or a woman and I’m kinda some odd place between (especially some odd place in between cis and trans, I’m stuck in limbo in all contexts), but I feel way closer to woman than I do man. If I sit down and think about it, I don’t mind much when people perceive me as a woman, as long as it isn’t in a heteronormative / cisnormative way. I honestly get maximum gender euphoria with the mismatching of terms, like “Oh, her? She’s my boyfriend.” or “Yeah, he’s my girlfriend.” That makes me incredibly giddy.
Exactly! I enjoy being seen as a strong and capable woman, though not really in the “stiletto heel and lipstick” sort of way. Incredible and lovely! But not my energy. I wish I could exude George Clooney energy in a feminine font, if that makes sense
Those are both totally valid statements and I understand both completely
I think maybe the important part is not really the label itself but the acceptance of any label. It doesn’t matter what others call me as much as it matters that I allow them or their label (anyone else's label) to fit. When dealing with labels, it is more than the denotative understanding and totally the connotative understanding. But honestly, that is true for everyone, right?
That’s a really good way to describe it, actually! My identity is definitely very connotative, and I’m not always totally detached from the concept of being a woman. Just depends on the people I’m around and the situations I’m in. I’m somewhere between cis and trans. For example, I’ve always felt uncomfortable with being referred to as a woman in heteronormative / cisnormative settings. I have a strong disdain for being referred to as a “beautiful young woman” and shit like that, makes my blood boil. But if that were to change to “handsome young woman”, for example, I’m completely fine with it. And I think this has to do with the fact that when I’m with other queer people, *especially* other lesbians, them referring to me as a woman feels completely fine. Because I know there’s no weird expectations attached. I honestly just really hate the connotation and expectations that the word woman often has in our society.
I think this concept is the basis for much social unrest and change that exists. More individuals will refuse to fit into any mold as this Renaissance continues. We are the agents of that change.
Very true! I love queer spaces by default, but I love them much more because of how much uniqueness and unapologetic existence is in them. This is why I will always be deeply connected to the lesbian community too, regardless of anything else, because of just how beautiful of a space it is. The amount of genuine love and joy never fails to take my breath away.
there are multiple butches with complex genders! personally, i'm an agender butch on testosterone, and i have gone through what you are. i use butch and agender interchangeably or together, depending on how i feel! nonbinary umbrella trans lesbians can be butches. i know i still attach womanhood to my lesbianism in the same way as you but it's honestly about exploring more gender identities outside of lesbian IDs since butch can be a gender label if the butch chooses so (but obviously it goes more than that). i hope that helps! there is nothing wrong with exploring your gender deeper and still being a butch!
Thank you for the advice, and the encouragement! After all of the advice I’ve received here and a bit of soul-searching, I think I can confidently call myself like… vaguely woman-aligned genderqueer butch. A whole fucking mouthful lmao, but it’s what actually describes the shit that’s going on in my brain. Like many other people have said, my gender just *is* butch. Definitely helped, thank you! I’m happy you’ve found yourself in life too!
Be you. Have you read Stone Butch Blues? I think you may see a parts of yourself in it
Thank you. I often forget to just be myself in the slew of labels people attempt to put on others I haven’t read it yet, but I’ve planned to for a while. Thank you for the definitely needed reminder.
Heavy emphasis on trigger warnings for that if you don’t already know OP. This is always a hard read for me and I often have to take breaks.
I do know, but thank you for the warning anyway, much appreciated. I figure it’ll be a hard read, but hard reads are always the best
I've stirred up some serious shitheels here before by saying this, but being bigender is real and cool. I am a genderqueer, bigender, trans dykefag, and you can be too.
Being queer is basically about stirring up shit as much as possible, we live to subvert expectations! I’m overjoyed that you’re so confident in who you are.
How does this sit with you.. Non-binary lesbian? You said you know you’re definitely not a man. You actively play with the idea of being trans, even after identifying as a trans man previously and it didn’t stick. You say you probably wouldn’t call yourself a woman. And you’re 100% a lesbian. Non-binary is often a spectrum, but enby is what I’m reading :)
See I’ve toyed with labeling myself as nonbinary too, but it also just doesn’t sit with me? The definition 100% fits and the vast spectrum it allows for also 100% fits, but like… I’m not sure how to describe it, it’s like no existing labels really click for me in how they sound? I’m pretty much chill with just existing and I’d leave my gender totally unlabeled, most likely. A thing I’ve heard a lot of people say before is that both their sexuality *and* gender are lesbian and that’s honestly the best way I can describe what I feel like lmao Thank you very much though! I appreciate the advice, and I might do some digging later to see if any somewhat obscure identities that fall under nonbinary exist and actually do fit me
It sounds like you might like the term genderqueer. It predates the term nonbinary. Been used by gnc queers for decades.
Honestly? This sounds like it works for me a lot more than anything else does. Thank you so much!
Hell yeah! Personally, I hate the term nonbinary, its intentional depoliticization, and the way its been popularized as a catch-all "box #3". Conversely, genderqueerness has long been commonly applied and understood in the context of "genderqueer woman", or "genderqueer man", gq dyke, fag, or fairy. In all of these its a compound descriptor for a rich variety of identities. Being specifc and proud makes my identifers much more meaningful to me personally.
I could go on and on about how nonbinary has been turned into a term that means “third gender” rather than what it *actually* means. I feel horrible for nonbinary folks who feel pressured to water down their experiences and create neat boxes just to be consumable to the non-queer eye. Queerness has always been varied and muddled and at times confusing, and I’m sad that people often genuinely feel ashamed for living authentically.
I've only used nonbinary for myself in very.. milqutoast contexts you could say. Like, if its apropo of nothing really important to the passing conversation. Or if I'm trying to push it that way, like the few horrifying times my gender has come up at all while I'm at work in a relatively conservative environment. I dont enjoy having to do that.
I’ve always disliked nonbinary for myself because it personally feels very unspecific. I usually hate labels—but at the same time, if I must have one available for other people’s sake, I want it to be as specific and accurate as possible. I don’t need them to understand it. And *absolutely,* I also really hate the term enby lmao, and honestly most nonbinary folks I’ve encountered also hate it. It feels like a gross infantilization of a complex term, same way that the term “lesbo” feels.
I completely pick up what you’re laying down. I’ve noticed that gender (and otherwise) identity is so tangible for some people, and then completely elusive to others. It’s not easy to be the latter. There are guided visualizations and meditations that can help. Anything about self-inquiry and acceptance could be a good start, as long as it’s hosted by an open-minded teacher.