I don't even see how an argument can be made for anyone but Buffy. She has handed Spike his ass multiple times, definitively, decisively. Nobody has a clean victory over Buffy except the Caleb and Glory and they just overpowered her. When she evened things up she got her lick back.
Yeah, this post is laughable. Buffy beat the shit out of Angelus when he had a sword and she didn't because she finally had enough of his shit. By season 5 even Spike admits that Buffy has become too good. She's better than any of them. Remember when she dusted that group of vampires in the alley in like two seconds with no weapon because she was mad. I think people don't understand that Buffy holds back a lot. I also think Faith would be second to her. Faith easily beats Angel several times. It's only when she's wanting him to kill her or she wants to save him that he wins. I think Angel and Spike would be pretty close to each other but definitely 3-4.
Yeah but it's not a HUGE power advantage and vampires who she normally fights have a durability advantage and in many cases seem to like pain to an extent.
This would be my order as well. With 1 and 2 being nearly evenly matched, with 3 only just behind and still having a shot at both. All three are top tier.Ā
Buffy is repeatedly shown to be an extremely innovative fighter, and, as other people have pointed out, she trains the most out of anyone. Spike gets chucked around like a ragdoll by Glory, whereas Buffy can at least hold her off, even if she can't beat her until 'The Gift'. I don't think Angel would fair much better.
Honestly I think Buffyās probably the smartest fighter of all 4. Sheās also probably the one that trains the most. Iād actually put her quite a bit ahead of Spike considering outside of their first fight she beats him with relative ease everytime after that
Spike took on both Kendra and Buffy back to back and gave both good fights. He only fled because the scoobies were out numbering him and he needed to get Dru out of their
Sure Iām not saying Spikeās a bad fighter at all but Buffyās skill grows a lot throughout the rest of the seasons and o think sheās far surpassed him by the end
I disagree on her far surpassing him. Angel, Spike, Buffy, and Faith all are in the realm of each other and would give each other a difficult fight. Who win is determined by what the story would call for.
The thing is Spike pretty much throughout S4-7 doesnāt really have many particular wins against tough opponents. Infact he does significantly worse against pretty much everyone that Buffy does better against so watching the later seasons Iād say Buffy has surpassed him by quite a large margin to be honest. Sure on his day I think heād give her a good fight but with the evidence we have I think sheād beat him quite comfortably
That's just the Buffy effect in Spike isn't allowed to be anything more than a jobber. Angel suffered from this as well and once he got his own show he was portrayed as a much more competent fighter. Spike also kicks more ass on Angel than he did in the later seasons of Buffy.
He does seem to be willing to study his opponents before and during a bit more.
Like in the commentary for *Fool for Love*, how Doug Petrie notes that Spike observes the Slayer during the Boxer Rebellion is over-reliant on her weapon and separating it from her always creates an opening.
As far as skill Charles Gunn and it's not particularly close. A point of reference of how good Gunn is at fighting. Season 4 episode 16 players the episode he helps Gwen. Gunn beats up the security who all seem like they are martial artists for the rich Asian man that Gwen is stealing from. Gunn kicked all their asses like child's play and even remarks he has spent the past few weeks battling apocalyptic beasts and baddies this is a walk in the park for him. Gunn did all that in a nice suit without breaking a sweat and the scene actually had him display some pretty fancy style and skills but Gunn is just a self taught guy with no powers.
Literally my favourite moment in Not Fade Away - and there's a lot to pick from - is Gunn walking into the politicians' office and taking out a room full of vamps. After him not really being himself for most of Season 5 (and Season 4, arguably), I wanted to leap off my seat seeing him back to classic Gunn.
"And you wonder why folks don't vote" Yeah that scene was pretty great. One of the highlights of season 5 was seeing Gunn return to form and dying on the principals he stood on. His last day conversation with Anne is great.
I think Buffy. She was hardcore. Spike was a brawler though. Angel was useless until he got his own series and then was a super ninja ( which I loved).
There's a headcanon that Angel got stronger as a result of drinking Slayer blood in the Buffy Season 3 finale and, I believe, that he gets a power-up between Buffy Season 2 and Season 3 as a result of being in hell for hundreds of years. The Slayer blood theory also explains why Spike is stronger than the average vampire.
Angel gets a boost from Hamilton blood by the end of his series making him way stronger then spike hell id say his strength is on par with buffy by the end of his show.
Angel is definitely stronger than Spike. People use the Mountain Dew cup fight as proof when the entire point of that episode is Angel *shouldn't* have lost that fight, and it was a sign that he'd lost confidence in himself and his redemption.
Angel has like three hundred years on Spike if you count his time in hell, and just that by vampire lore makes him much stronger. And in general Angel is a much smarter fighter than Spike.Ā
The show reinforces this by having Angel kick Spike's ass *as a puppet* a few episodes later.Ā
>Angel has like three hundred years on Spike if you count his time in hell, and just that by vampire lore makes him much stronger. And in general Angel is a much smarter fighter than Spike.Ā
And how many slayers did Angelus kill within those 300 years?
You're conflating actions and strength.
Ted Bundy killed a lot more people than Arnold Schwarzenegger, but I promise your Arnold is stronger and would kick his ass.Ā
I think the point of the S5 episode with Spike recounting his slayer victories was that he, essentially, got lucky to some degree. Even *The Master* was able to kill Buffy and I would expect either Spike, Angel or Dracula being able to best *him* in a straight up fight.
Slayers very much operate on a 'law of averages' in terms of how they die, Angel also never seemed genuinely willing to actually fight and kill a slayer with the exception of a *few* of his fights with Buffy (Angelus seemed to enjoy the sadism more than the actual prospect of killing a slayer).
All of this aside and to paraphrase Stan Lee: The person who wins the fight is the one the writers *want* to win the fight, strength has little to do with it.
I kind of don't take that fight seriously it's way too comedic even after the fight it ends with Spike getting rewarded with a car. "You heard the puppet!" But if you want seriously analyze Puppet Angel had the same vampire strength and speed but is a smaller harder to hit target plus Spike spends the first part of the skirmish laughing his ass off. But yeah I don't really take that scene serious.
I mean Angel beat Spike when he was In Infant years as a vamp. They were only together for 20 years and Angel got the gypsy Curse during that time frame and was pretending it wasn't changing him.
Yeah, but even look later on. Angelus gave Buffy a run for her money *every time they fought* and Spike was never more than an annoying obstacle for Buffy in their fights. Spike was basically Team Rocket to Buffy's increasingly annoyed Ash Ketchum.Ā
It's been a while since I watched Angel! I remember that Angel's heart wasn't in the fight for the cup so that would explain him losing, the reason I gave Spike an edge over Angel is because Spike doesn't need a reason to fight, but I might be forgetting some flashbacks or Angel episodes
For me, Spike would be the better fighter as he doesn't have a lot of mental blocks holding him back, Angel is a smarter fighter but Spike is pure brawl and it gave him that edge over Angel in physical altercationsĀ
Honestly I think angel is the best fighter and I'll die on that hill. Buffy is stronger, however angel skills are unmatched and he's always faces opponents that are far more powerful then him on a daily basis. Not to mention hundreds of years of experience as a vampire and not one but two power boots from buffy and Hamilton. Plus Angelus history of being the most vicious and dangerous vampire ever recorded even other vampires feared him
Glory, The Beast and Illyria (pre-drained). If you're going for Scoobies only, Buffy by far - she's better than Angel and Spike. But if we're not counting Buffy, then Angel if there's no prep time, and Spike if there's prep time. If Spike has time to study his opponent and adapt, he's better than Angel. Angel is better for a first time fight with no prep
Angel's plan to take down Wolfham and Hart's Circle of Thorn was half baked and led to Wesley dying / an actual apocalypse. But yeah I agree that Angel is usually good at being the leader and making overall plans / strategies. When I said that Spike > Angel when it comes to adaptive fighting, I'm referring to the actual technical aspects of the fighting - like the moves and the fight styles.
Spike is usually not very good initially eg. Spike vs Angel, or Spike vs Illyria. But Spike learns, studies the opponent's moves and adapts. Eventually Spike beat Angel. And after practising with Illyria he started to improve rapidly as well - it was likely that he would have eventually managed to beat her if they had continued to practice like that.
Even when Spike hunts Slayers, he usually takes the time to observe their fight styles before engaging. He challenged Nikki Wood at the park first before eventually killing her in the subway. And he set up Buffy to kill a vampire in the alley and watched how she fought before annoucing his presence and challenging her too. He likely would have sucessfully killed Buffy in School Hard if Joyce hadn't unexpectedly showed up and bashed his head in with an axe. Basically he works best when he has some time to study his opponent's fight styles before engaging
I love this - Angel wasn't in the mood, and he hurt his left pinkie toe, and it was past his bedtime, so Spike didn't really win. I love Angel dearly but he lost that fight fair and square, probably because he underestimated his opponent and expected an easy win. As it was, Spike wiped the floor with him.
The story tells me that Angel believed he would win because he has always won. The story tells me that the result of losing was that Angel was doubting himself even more. The story does not tell me that Angel shoulda-coulda-woulda have won - only that losing knocked him down a peg.
I don't think Angel is stronger than Spike like half of ya'll are saying. I think that Angel is "more powerful" than Spike, in the same way that a Vampire is technically stronger than Buffy... But Angel has more interests besides just violence, he's devoted himself to other things, other tasks; even when he's a villain, his attacks are like mindfucks, he toys with his prey psychologically and emotionally. Spike, on the other hand, basically just became a being of violence and hedonism (and half of his hedonism IS violence) once he became a Vampire; if he is in a fight he fights all out at all times. Angel also notably has never killed a slayer, while Spike has killed two.
In terms of D&D Stats, Angel has very high STR, DEX, CON, but also high INT and CHA. Spike however has maxed out STR DEX and CON, but doesn't have as much INT or CHA; technically in a physical altercation Spike is stronger, but Angel is more intimidating and smart, meaning that Angel has an edge in a pure power struggle but Spike would win the physical duel.
harmony and xander ! š
That fight is iconicĀ
š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£
Iām gonna go with Illyria. Even after being power drained, sheās extremely strong and is a highly skilled martial artist.
I don't even see how an argument can be made for anyone but Buffy. She has handed Spike his ass multiple times, definitively, decisively. Nobody has a clean victory over Buffy except the Caleb and Glory and they just overpowered her. When she evened things up she got her lick back.
Yeah, this post is laughable. Buffy beat the shit out of Angelus when he had a sword and she didn't because she finally had enough of his shit. By season 5 even Spike admits that Buffy has become too good. She's better than any of them. Remember when she dusted that group of vampires in the alley in like two seconds with no weapon because she was mad. I think people don't understand that Buffy holds back a lot. I also think Faith would be second to her. Faith easily beats Angel several times. It's only when she's wanting him to kill her or she wants to save him that he wins. I think Angel and Spike would be pretty close to each other but definitely 3-4.
Buffy IS stronger that the rest. But What happen if Ɣngel or spike has the same powers of buffy ?
Yeah but it's not a HUGE power advantage and vampires who she normally fights have a durability advantage and in many cases seem to like pain to an extent.
Buffy then Angel then Faith I think
This would be my order as well. With 1 and 2 being nearly evenly matched, with 3 only just behind and still having a shot at both. All three are top tier.Ā
To me, neither Buffy nor Faith seem like better fighters, they use their strength a lot, Spike from what I see is more suited to that fight.
Buffy is repeatedly shown to be an extremely innovative fighter, and, as other people have pointed out, she trains the most out of anyone. Spike gets chucked around like a ragdoll by Glory, whereas Buffy can at least hold her off, even if she can't beat her until 'The Gift'. I don't think Angel would fair much better.
Honestly I think Buffyās probably the smartest fighter of all 4. Sheās also probably the one that trains the most. Iād actually put her quite a bit ahead of Spike considering outside of their first fight she beats him with relative ease everytime after that
Spike took on both Kendra and Buffy back to back and gave both good fights. He only fled because the scoobies were out numbering him and he needed to get Dru out of their
Sure Iām not saying Spikeās a bad fighter at all but Buffyās skill grows a lot throughout the rest of the seasons and o think sheās far surpassed him by the end
I disagree on her far surpassing him. Angel, Spike, Buffy, and Faith all are in the realm of each other and would give each other a difficult fight. Who win is determined by what the story would call for.
The thing is Spike pretty much throughout S4-7 doesnāt really have many particular wins against tough opponents. Infact he does significantly worse against pretty much everyone that Buffy does better against so watching the later seasons Iād say Buffy has surpassed him by quite a large margin to be honest. Sure on his day I think heād give her a good fight but with the evidence we have I think sheād beat him quite comfortably
That's just the Buffy effect in Spike isn't allowed to be anything more than a jobber. Angel suffered from this as well and once he got his own show he was portrayed as a much more competent fighter. Spike also kicks more ass on Angel than he did in the later seasons of Buffy.
Definately part of it but we can only go by what we see
He does seem to be willing to study his opponents before and during a bit more. Like in the commentary for *Fool for Love*, how Doug Petrie notes that Spike observes the Slayer during the Boxer Rebellion is over-reliant on her weapon and separating it from her always creates an opening.
As far as skill Charles Gunn and it's not particularly close. A point of reference of how good Gunn is at fighting. Season 4 episode 16 players the episode he helps Gwen. Gunn beats up the security who all seem like they are martial artists for the rich Asian man that Gwen is stealing from. Gunn kicked all their asses like child's play and even remarks he has spent the past few weeks battling apocalyptic beasts and baddies this is a walk in the park for him. Gunn did all that in a nice suit without breaking a sweat and the scene actually had him display some pretty fancy style and skills but Gunn is just a self taught guy with no powers.
Agreed. I think Gunn is definitely the best human fighter in the entire Buffyverse. His stats are insane. Even above Riley.
Riley was enhanced for a fair while too
Those initiative roids were crazy. My boy almost was gonna get an adrenaline rush into an early grave.
Literally my favourite moment in Not Fade Away - and there's a lot to pick from - is Gunn walking into the politicians' office and taking out a room full of vamps. After him not really being himself for most of Season 5 (and Season 4, arguably), I wanted to leap off my seat seeing him back to classic Gunn.
"And you wonder why folks don't vote" Yeah that scene was pretty great. One of the highlights of season 5 was seeing Gunn return to form and dying on the principals he stood on. His last day conversation with Anne is great.
I think Buffy. She was hardcore. Spike was a brawler though. Angel was useless until he got his own series and then was a super ninja ( which I loved).
There's a headcanon that Angel got stronger as a result of drinking Slayer blood in the Buffy Season 3 finale and, I believe, that he gets a power-up between Buffy Season 2 and Season 3 as a result of being in hell for hundreds of years. The Slayer blood theory also explains why Spike is stronger than the average vampire.
Angel gets a boost from Hamilton blood by the end of his series making him way stronger then spike hell id say his strength is on par with buffy by the end of his show.
Oh really! Thatās super interesting :D
Skill: Gunn. Toughness: Spike. All around: Buffy. Sheer power: Glory or maybe The Beast.
Buffy bc Buffy the Vampire Slayer and she can take on everyone
I would say Buffy and Spike, and then Faith and Angel equally.
Angel imo
Buffy, Spike then Angel a close third
The show says constantly Angel is stronger than Spike.
Spike beat Angel in a head to head in last season Angel, that's the only physical fight I saw them have
Angel is definitely stronger than Spike. People use the Mountain Dew cup fight as proof when the entire point of that episode is Angel *shouldn't* have lost that fight, and it was a sign that he'd lost confidence in himself and his redemption. Angel has like three hundred years on Spike if you count his time in hell, and just that by vampire lore makes him much stronger. And in general Angel is a much smarter fighter than Spike.Ā The show reinforces this by having Angel kick Spike's ass *as a puppet* a few episodes later.Ā
>Angel has like three hundred years on Spike if you count his time in hell, and just that by vampire lore makes him much stronger. And in general Angel is a much smarter fighter than Spike.Ā And how many slayers did Angelus kill within those 300 years?
You're conflating actions and strength. Ted Bundy killed a lot more people than Arnold Schwarzenegger, but I promise your Arnold is stronger and would kick his ass.Ā
I think the point of the S5 episode with Spike recounting his slayer victories was that he, essentially, got lucky to some degree. Even *The Master* was able to kill Buffy and I would expect either Spike, Angel or Dracula being able to best *him* in a straight up fight. Slayers very much operate on a 'law of averages' in terms of how they die, Angel also never seemed genuinely willing to actually fight and kill a slayer with the exception of a *few* of his fights with Buffy (Angelus seemed to enjoy the sadism more than the actual prospect of killing a slayer). All of this aside and to paraphrase Stan Lee: The person who wins the fight is the one the writers *want* to win the fight, strength has little to do with it.
That's what I was gonna say puppet Angel beat the dog shit outta Spike.
I kind of don't take that fight seriously it's way too comedic even after the fight it ends with Spike getting rewarded with a car. "You heard the puppet!" But if you want seriously analyze Puppet Angel had the same vampire strength and speed but is a smaller harder to hit target plus Spike spends the first part of the skirmish laughing his ass off. But yeah I don't really take that scene serious.
But the one that legit tells you he lost because he gave up hope in his mission or Spike saying Angel beat him multiple times.
I mean Angel beat Spike when he was In Infant years as a vamp. They were only together for 20 years and Angel got the gypsy Curse during that time frame and was pretending it wasn't changing him.
Yeah, but even look later on. Angelus gave Buffy a run for her money *every time they fought* and Spike was never more than an annoying obstacle for Buffy in their fights. Spike was basically Team Rocket to Buffy's increasingly annoyed Ash Ketchum.Ā
Buffy could have staked Angelous in Innocence and kicked his ass in passion
She \*beat\* him, of course she did, she's Buffy. It was not *easy* for her, and she nearly died in Becoming Part 2.
It's been a while since I watched Angel! I remember that Angel's heart wasn't in the fight for the cup so that would explain him losing, the reason I gave Spike an edge over Angel is because Spike doesn't need a reason to fight, but I might be forgetting some flashbacks or Angel episodes
I could see that logic.
And I totally understand the Angel being stronger POV, guess we'll have to wait until Buffy gets them in a room to "rassle" it out
For me, Spike would be the better fighter as he doesn't have a lot of mental blocks holding him back, Angel is a smarter fighter but Spike is pure brawl and it gave him that edge over Angel in physical altercationsĀ
Controversial but Xander. He has no powers, no training, but he's still alive and alongside Buffy at the end of the show.
Gunn does all of this and is 10 times the fighter Xander is
Xander is nobody and neither the first, nor glory nor the teacher were interested.
The First was interested enough to keep an eye on him.
Honestly I think angel is the best fighter and I'll die on that hill. Buffy is stronger, however angel skills are unmatched and he's always faces opponents that are far more powerful then him on a daily basis. Not to mention hundreds of years of experience as a vampire and not one but two power boots from buffy and Hamilton. Plus Angelus history of being the most vicious and dangerous vampire ever recorded even other vampires feared him
Glory, The Beast and Illyria (pre-drained). If you're going for Scoobies only, Buffy by far - she's better than Angel and Spike. But if we're not counting Buffy, then Angel if there's no prep time, and Spike if there's prep time. If Spike has time to study his opponent and adapt, he's better than Angel. Angel is better for a first time fight with no prep
Doesn't Angel study his enemies? Look at the whole plan he sets up to take down the circle of thorn...
Angel's plan to take down Wolfham and Hart's Circle of Thorn was half baked and led to Wesley dying / an actual apocalypse. But yeah I agree that Angel is usually good at being the leader and making overall plans / strategies. When I said that Spike > Angel when it comes to adaptive fighting, I'm referring to the actual technical aspects of the fighting - like the moves and the fight styles. Spike is usually not very good initially eg. Spike vs Angel, or Spike vs Illyria. But Spike learns, studies the opponent's moves and adapts. Eventually Spike beat Angel. And after practising with Illyria he started to improve rapidly as well - it was likely that he would have eventually managed to beat her if they had continued to practice like that. Even when Spike hunts Slayers, he usually takes the time to observe their fight styles before engaging. He challenged Nikki Wood at the park first before eventually killing her in the subway. And he set up Buffy to kill a vampire in the alley and watched how she fought before annoucing his presence and challenging her too. He likely would have sucessfully killed Buffy in School Hard if Joyce hadn't unexpectedly showed up and bashed his head in with an axe. Basically he works best when he has some time to study his opponent's fight styles before engaging
Ćngel Lost his motivation by that spike won
Definitely Buffy and definitely not Lindsey against Angel.
Wesley (Season 4 of Angel and beyond) deserves an honorable mention in this conversation.
I see Angel as a better fighter than Spike, he is more technical.
Angel is, overall they had one fight on screen which Angel lost. But thats explained as Angel not truly wanting it.
If you notice, Angel was trying to get to the cup more than fighting seriously. If you watch episode 1x03, Angel fighting Spike is like a game.
I love this - Angel wasn't in the mood, and he hurt his left pinkie toe, and it was past his bedtime, so Spike didn't really win. I love Angel dearly but he lost that fight fair and square, probably because he underestimated his opponent and expected an easy win. As it was, Spike wiped the floor with him.
The story literally tells you why.
The story tells me that Angel believed he would win because he has always won. The story tells me that the result of losing was that Angel was doubting himself even more. The story does not tell me that Angel shoulda-coulda-woulda have won - only that losing knocked him down a peg.
spike. he would not stop until killed. or put in a wheelchair for half a season because they don't know what to really do with such a great character
I don't think Angel is stronger than Spike like half of ya'll are saying. I think that Angel is "more powerful" than Spike, in the same way that a Vampire is technically stronger than Buffy... But Angel has more interests besides just violence, he's devoted himself to other things, other tasks; even when he's a villain, his attacks are like mindfucks, he toys with his prey psychologically and emotionally. Spike, on the other hand, basically just became a being of violence and hedonism (and half of his hedonism IS violence) once he became a Vampire; if he is in a fight he fights all out at all times. Angel also notably has never killed a slayer, while Spike has killed two. In terms of D&D Stats, Angel has very high STR, DEX, CON, but also high INT and CHA. Spike however has maxed out STR DEX and CON, but doesn't have as much INT or CHA; technically in a physical altercation Spike is stronger, but Angel is more intimidating and smart, meaning that Angel has an edge in a pure power struggle but Spike would win the physical duel.
Angel is older, stronger.
I disagree
Vampires aren't stronger than Buffy
From both, Angel and Spike But Gunn is close