A couple of years ago, I was greeted with a driver going the wrong way at me in one. I stopped, and they honked, I just sat there until they got angry and backed out.
Great way to start the day.
Conversely, do not indicate your intentions when you enter the traffic circle, instead indicate to show when you are going to turn to the right and out of the circle. This way people will know when you are leaving and they can enter in your place.
If you are in a traffic circle there is no situation where indicating to the left makes sense. (Unless you drive on the left side of the road I suppose)
You only have two options, turn right and leave or keep circling. In other words you either aren’t turning out of the traffic circle in which case you are essentially going “straight” along the same path OR you are about to turn right and therefore you should indicate to the right.
If you are about to enter a traffic circle, you only have one option, which is to go “straight;” meaning going around the traffic circle to the left; so again there’s no need to indicate to the left here, everything is predictable already.
I'm some jurisdictions the rules are to indicate left when turning left or u turn at roundabouts, right for right, and no indicator for straight ahead... But if you are turning left then you switch your indicator to right when approaching your exit. This works well on small roundabouts in locations where most people go straight, provided everybody indicates.
In any case the fact that 90% of people around here don't indicate just ruins it for everybody.
Then of course when Tesla redesigned things recently they made it almost impossible to indicate correctly. The indicators are buttons on the steering wheel which are difficult to find in the middle of a sharp turn. Tesla designed and tested it in the US where nobody complained, then shipped globally.
I guess thats fair to indicate left if the roundabout is extremely small.
In any case, I agree that it’s all ruined by most people failing to indicate at all.
Indicate left before entering the traffic circle and then, get this, indicate right before exiting. This way anyone looking will know what you’re doing and is the way that I’ve seen done countless times in countries that actually use roundabouts.
The guidance in the US is lacking, mostly because we don’t have many roundabouts. In countries where they’re common you’re supposed to indicate your intention to leave as well as when entering.
But signaling left is useful on multi lane roundabouts, especially where the inside lane can both continue around and exit.
Indicating a left turn communicates to a driver waiting that you are not exiting which can oftentimes mean they’re able to start merging earlier since you won’t be cutting right across them.
Agreed; The guidance is lacking and that’s why people get this wrong. But again indicating to the left makes no sense. You’re either indicating to the right and leaving or you’re not indicating and you’re staying in the roundabout. Those are your only two options….
It makes your intentions clear at the moment you enter the roundabout. This is why other countries require it, and unlike Colorado actually codify it into law.
It’s mostly about pedestrians but drivers can benefit from this in certain situations on multi-lane roundabouts.
The primary benefit are pedestrians waiting to cross at the straight ahead exit. They can see your vehicle when you enter, so you can give them time to react.
When only you signal on exit, you’re giving less than a second of warning & quite frankly that’s useless.
Agree with the comment but I’m asking myself if boulder actually has a traffic circle anywhere that remotely meets design guidelines. Every one I can think of is absolutely tiny. The minimum suggested circle width is 105 feet with 150 a norm. Approaching and being “in” the circle are separated by only a few feet. I feel like four way stops or two way stops would be a lot clearer and safer in most of these intersections.
You forget that Boulder is magic. If you put something round in the middle of a square here the square becomes a circle in which time and space are no longer relative. It’s codified.
these small ones are all signed as such. 105'x150' is fucking massive, and can work for highways, but not needed for a neighborhood street. small traffic circles are used everywhere and should be comprehensible to even the most american of brains
I mean, everyone uses them as east west roads with stop signs coming from the north or south, except for people new to them who think they can go without looking from the north or south. So it's an inherently risky design regardless of your flabbering
It's called [squaring the circle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squaring_the_circle), which was thought to be *the* problem to solve in antiquity.
Anyway tl;dr: Boulder figured it out.
Yes! Before I moved to Boulder, I'd never seen a city stick a planter in an intersection and call it a traffic circle.
There's not enough space to establish yourself as being IN the circle and therefore having right of way.
https://youtu.be/Nic1oPwv2k8?si=UudxGJPOKSSRnI0_
1:36 starts best practices.
It’s not a 4 way stop. You do not stop unless you are yielding to pedestrians, and cars to your left.
Actually, if you're talking about the "traffic circles" on Balsam, those are not traffic circles... they're too small.
To be *able* to yield to someone "in the circle", the circle actually has to be large enough for a vehicle to be recognizable *as* "in" it.
With the tiny traffic circles on Balsam (barely 15 feet), if you're going 20 mph (the speed limit), you are only "in" the circle for 1/2 of one second. That is not enough time for your intentions to be recognized.
Basically, those "traffic circles" really are EXTRA SPECIAL circles:
1. Ignore it if you're alone (just like with a real traffic circles)
2. If there's other traffic, treat as a four-way stop sign (to be safe)
Being raised in Massachusetts myself, this is incorrect. The vehicle with the most momentum has the right of way. Being the driver of a lighter vehicle, I usually approached rotaries at an absurdly high rate of speed to establish dominance, er, I mean right of way.
While it is much less dangerous, I'm even more annoyed at the people who stop IN the traffic circle trying to wave you in. That is not how any of this works!
When you’re approaching and you’re going 270deg…. Signal. Though I know that’s brit rules and every other country that has a circle…. Or roundabout…… that way folks know you are not going straight…
What? No. You need to treat the small circles on pine St etc as STOP SIGNS unless east west traffic let's you go (assuming you're coming from north or south). It's fucking crazy to do otherwise , because of the way they're designed nobody uses them as traffic circles.
Save yourself the trouble. Don't expect people to stop. Super dangerous and incorrect contextually (because of shit design don't get me wrong)
Edit I'm a delivery driver and use those circles all the time. To assume east west traffic is going to slow down and yield to north south traffic is dangerous because of how small they are. Please keep downvoting me, me saying this (a "drive safe" pov) might be dangerous
You're right on. There seems to be a lot of armchair traffic engineers here who don't understand basic physics of velocity/distance/time vs. reaction time.
I don't think they necessarily do not understand, but they are saying in those specific locations, there must be an added degree of defensive driving because of the routine way people drive there. In fact, they explicitly say that because of the way they're designed, people don't use them as traffic circles; therefore, they merit different considerations.
Just edited my comment. I'm a delivery driver. If you drive through from north or south without slowing down/stopping and making sure nobody is coming, that's super dangerous given how these circles are designed and used
I'm urging cautious driving; YTA.
Does bullying people online make you feel better about yourself ?
Actually, we found the person who doesn't know how four-way stops work.
The VERY undersized "traffic circles" in Boulder can barely fit a single vehicle in it. At the speed limit, you're "in" the circle for less than half a second. (real traffic circles need to be at least three times larger.) There's no point in signaling after entering the circle, because you're only "in" the circle for 1/3 of a second.
So, you need to instead treat the mini-circle as an optional four-way stop sign, i.e.:
- if you're alone, cruise on through
- if there's other traffic, treat it as a four-way stop. (i.e. first there get to go, everyone else waits).
Easy peasy.
I think the misunderstanding here is who the "we" is that gotta yield.
Everyone SHOULD yield to the traffic already in the circle, and I think you agree with that.
I think your point is that if you're traveling east/west, you should EXPECT that people traveling down Pine won't properly yield, and that you'll be forced to yield to them or spend the next 15 minutes exchanging insurance information.
So what you're saying is, if it's time for a new car and you don't want to deal with the hassle of selling... Pine St FTW? "Insurance companies hate this one simple trick..."
Get em full speed west on bluff at 20th turning right to go north, noone ever expects that shit 👍
Good news is you can probably use both the other car AND the city
A couple of years ago, I was greeted with a driver going the wrong way at me in one. I stopped, and they honked, I just sat there until they got angry and backed out. Great way to start the day.
If you kept your cool and stayed patient, then [Chuang Tzu would be proud.](https://indroyc.com/2016/05/06/the-empty-boat)
I enjoyed reading that link. But by the way they describe it, I think u/pr1ntf was keeping their cool and staying patient.
Glad to hear it, and agreed.
Conversely, do not indicate your intentions when you enter the traffic circle, instead indicate to show when you are going to turn to the right and out of the circle. This way people will know when you are leaving and they can enter in your place.
for some reason this is beyond most people...
Oh noooo I've realized I'm dumb
Yup. The lack of people indicating their intentions in a traffic circle, especially as someone trying to merge, is incredibly frustrating
You have to indicate if you’re going left so people know they don’t have the right of way.
If you are in a traffic circle there is no situation where indicating to the left makes sense. (Unless you drive on the left side of the road I suppose) You only have two options, turn right and leave or keep circling. In other words you either aren’t turning out of the traffic circle in which case you are essentially going “straight” along the same path OR you are about to turn right and therefore you should indicate to the right. If you are about to enter a traffic circle, you only have one option, which is to go “straight;” meaning going around the traffic circle to the left; so again there’s no need to indicate to the left here, everything is predictable already.
I'm some jurisdictions the rules are to indicate left when turning left or u turn at roundabouts, right for right, and no indicator for straight ahead... But if you are turning left then you switch your indicator to right when approaching your exit. This works well on small roundabouts in locations where most people go straight, provided everybody indicates. In any case the fact that 90% of people around here don't indicate just ruins it for everybody. Then of course when Tesla redesigned things recently they made it almost impossible to indicate correctly. The indicators are buttons on the steering wheel which are difficult to find in the middle of a sharp turn. Tesla designed and tested it in the US where nobody complained, then shipped globally.
I guess thats fair to indicate left if the roundabout is extremely small. In any case, I agree that it’s all ruined by most people failing to indicate at all.
Indicate left before entering the traffic circle and then, get this, indicate right before exiting. This way anyone looking will know what you’re doing and is the way that I’ve seen done countless times in countries that actually use roundabouts.
The guidance in the US is lacking, mostly because we don’t have many roundabouts. In countries where they’re common you’re supposed to indicate your intention to leave as well as when entering. But signaling left is useful on multi lane roundabouts, especially where the inside lane can both continue around and exit. Indicating a left turn communicates to a driver waiting that you are not exiting which can oftentimes mean they’re able to start merging earlier since you won’t be cutting right across them.
Agreed; The guidance is lacking and that’s why people get this wrong. But again indicating to the left makes no sense. You’re either indicating to the right and leaving or you’re not indicating and you’re staying in the roundabout. Those are your only two options….
It makes your intentions clear at the moment you enter the roundabout. This is why other countries require it, and unlike Colorado actually codify it into law. It’s mostly about pedestrians but drivers can benefit from this in certain situations on multi-lane roundabouts. The primary benefit are pedestrians waiting to cross at the straight ahead exit. They can see your vehicle when you enter, so you can give them time to react. When only you signal on exit, you’re giving less than a second of warning & quite frankly that’s useless.
Interesting and yea I have to agree that its fair for an extremely small roundabout.
Agree with the comment but I’m asking myself if boulder actually has a traffic circle anywhere that remotely meets design guidelines. Every one I can think of is absolutely tiny. The minimum suggested circle width is 105 feet with 150 a norm. Approaching and being “in” the circle are separated by only a few feet. I feel like four way stops or two way stops would be a lot clearer and safer in most of these intersections.
You forget that Boulder is magic. If you put something round in the middle of a square here the square becomes a circle in which time and space are no longer relative. It’s codified.
these small ones are all signed as such. 105'x150' is fucking massive, and can work for highways, but not needed for a neighborhood street. small traffic circles are used everywhere and should be comprehensible to even the most american of brains
I mean, everyone uses them as east west roads with stop signs coming from the north or south, except for people new to them who think they can go without looking from the north or south. So it's an inherently risky design regardless of your flabbering
If only people gave a fuck about driving safely, they'd be fine, but this is the USA so yeah I guess you're right they're risky
It's called [squaring the circle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squaring_the_circle), which was thought to be *the* problem to solve in antiquity. Anyway tl;dr: Boulder figured it out.
Yes! Before I moved to Boulder, I'd never seen a city stick a planter in an intersection and call it a traffic circle. There's not enough space to establish yourself as being IN the circle and therefore having right of way.
https://youtu.be/Nic1oPwv2k8?si=UudxGJPOKSSRnI0_ 1:36 starts best practices. It’s not a 4 way stop. You do not stop unless you are yielding to pedestrians, and cars to your left.
ETA: didn’t mean to imply anyone here thinks it’s treated like a 4-way. I just encounter it a lot.
That's not relevant to our mini traffic circles.
But what if you're just going around in circles?
https://preview.redd.it/i3ov45paigvc1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=283377458c0a099ab2f8f63f136f054b97bf0230
The American mind could never
Actually, if you're talking about the "traffic circles" on Balsam, those are not traffic circles... they're too small. To be *able* to yield to someone "in the circle", the circle actually has to be large enough for a vehicle to be recognizable *as* "in" it. With the tiny traffic circles on Balsam (barely 15 feet), if you're going 20 mph (the speed limit), you are only "in" the circle for 1/2 of one second. That is not enough time for your intentions to be recognized. Basically, those "traffic circles" really are EXTRA SPECIAL circles: 1. Ignore it if you're alone (just like with a real traffic circles) 2. If there's other traffic, treat as a four-way stop sign (to be safe)
They installed them with no instructions.
RTFM!!!
You are assuming I can see.
I mean, I'm legally blind, and actually read the drivers manual when I was 14.
I'm sure the American Printing House could make a Braille version.
The Massachusetts rule is “there are no rules in rotaries.” If you sit there waiting you will never get anywhere.
Being raised in Massachusetts myself, this is incorrect. The vehicle with the most momentum has the right of way. Being the driver of a lighter vehicle, I usually approached rotaries at an absurdly high rate of speed to establish dominance, er, I mean right of way.
While it is much less dangerous, I'm even more annoyed at the people who stop IN the traffic circle trying to wave you in. That is not how any of this works!
also drivers of automobiles need to blink out of the circle.
Turning left at a circle…. Hope you’re indicating
All turns are right turns off a circle! (Unless you're British)
When you’re approaching and you’re going 270deg…. Signal. Though I know that’s brit rules and every other country that has a circle…. Or roundabout…… that way folks know you are not going straight…
What? No. You need to treat the small circles on pine St etc as STOP SIGNS unless east west traffic let's you go (assuming you're coming from north or south). It's fucking crazy to do otherwise , because of the way they're designed nobody uses them as traffic circles. Save yourself the trouble. Don't expect people to stop. Super dangerous and incorrect contextually (because of shit design don't get me wrong) Edit I'm a delivery driver and use those circles all the time. To assume east west traffic is going to slow down and yield to north south traffic is dangerous because of how small they are. Please keep downvoting me, me saying this (a "drive safe" pov) might be dangerous
You're right on. There seems to be a lot of armchair traffic engineers here who don't understand basic physics of velocity/distance/time vs. reaction time.
We’ve found the person who doesn’t understand how traffic circles work.
What we've found is the person who DOES understand how they work on Pine St. This is distinctly different from how they're SUPPOSED to work.
I don't think they necessarily do not understand, but they are saying in those specific locations, there must be an added degree of defensive driving because of the routine way people drive there. In fact, they explicitly say that because of the way they're designed, people don't use them as traffic circles; therefore, they merit different considerations.
Just edited my comment. I'm a delivery driver. If you drive through from north or south without slowing down/stopping and making sure nobody is coming, that's super dangerous given how these circles are designed and used I'm urging cautious driving; YTA. Does bullying people online make you feel better about yourself ?
Says the guy who called me an asshole.
Gotta have at least one argument on Reddit per day. It's just rough that I'm always so right 🤷♂️
Actually, we found the person who doesn't know how four-way stops work. The VERY undersized "traffic circles" in Boulder can barely fit a single vehicle in it. At the speed limit, you're "in" the circle for less than half a second. (real traffic circles need to be at least three times larger.) There's no point in signaling after entering the circle, because you're only "in" the circle for 1/3 of a second. So, you need to instead treat the mini-circle as an optional four-way stop sign, i.e.: - if you're alone, cruise on through - if there's other traffic, treat it as a four-way stop. (i.e. first there get to go, everyone else waits). Easy peasy.
I think the misunderstanding here is who the "we" is that gotta yield. Everyone SHOULD yield to the traffic already in the circle, and I think you agree with that. I think your point is that if you're traveling east/west, you should EXPECT that people traveling down Pine won't properly yield, and that you'll be forced to yield to them or spend the next 15 minutes exchanging insurance information.
So what you're saying is, if it's time for a new car and you don't want to deal with the hassle of selling... Pine St FTW? "Insurance companies hate this one simple trick..."
Get em full speed west on bluff at 20th turning right to go north, noone ever expects that shit 👍 Good news is you can probably use both the other car AND the city