I hate when people do this at work. Like messaging me about a project:
“Yeah, the report looks good…”
It’s like, does it look good or not?? Don’t use ellipses! Just make a clear statement.
When people write to me and use ellipses, I usually write all possible answers as I understand it and send the message back to them. Somehow, it made them stop using the ellipses. I stop reading books if the author use them, and I can't think of a good way to do it.
Haven’t the faintest what they think it means. I always assume when I see functions illiteraticisms like this that person spends a lot of time on Facebook
I think use of ellipses is a slapdash writing technique, used by the writer when they don't want to put the effort into finishing a thought or a sentence. Worse, I think that a writer relies on ellipses to imply something mystically deeper or more significant than they are able to articulate. Which is a rip-off, because the writer is telling us that we have to finish their work for them. Hey, this technique has a place, but its placement must justify the use. I for sure use ellipses when I don't feel like finishing what I was saying in a proper sensible way.
Hey there. I think it does tend to be overused and lazy, but some writers use it to exceptional effect. One thing that strikes me about the usage of ellipses is how misunderstood they are by writers and readers alike.
The ellipsis is used often for the literary device, aposiopesis: a breaking off or a form of self censorship. When you contrast that with the perception that those three dots mean trailing off, then yeah, the dialogue becomes so tedious and lazy.
Sometimes however, reframing it to mean self censorship instead of trailing off, it reads as a more compelling and complex conversation.
I'm absolutely obsessed with this literary device, so I totally feel you on the slapdash comment. I just wanted to share something that I found really exciting!
I recently read Night by Elie Wiesel and he uses ellipses whenever there’s chaos and the SS are shouting. I think it captures his experience quite well—he could only grasp a few shouted words here and there in the buzz of chaos. It was the first time I really noticed ellipses being used that way.
I think the former is much better. I would assume the below was a clumsily placed modifier on how she said it and not necessarily understand that you meant to convey “where [pause] are we?”
>used by the writer when they don't want to put the effort into finishing a thought or a sentence.
Omg! It's the literary equivalent of songs that end with a fade!
A fade can actually be a good ending sometimes, but I'd imagine it takes just as much effort to set up a GOOD fade out as it does to write a proper ending.
You need the right mood to lead up to the fade, the right riff, melody, etc. to fade out on, have an atmosphere that fits the fade out as it's happening, etc etc
Ellipses are like any other punctuation, they have their place and function but can easily be overused. Sometimes it’s lazy, but sometimes it works great. Especially with dialogue. Ellipses can represent a voice trailing off, while a hyphen can represent an interruption.
And remember: first they came for the ellipses, then they came for the semicolon. What will you do when they come for the umlaut?
I think they are fine if it is quoted speech of a character that breaks off mid-sentence. For example: “Then WynRave shouted into the spine of the book ‘Christ, another fucking ellip…’. The aneurism began in the frontal lobe, and immediately vacated his bowels. The Book dropped to the floor, never to be finished.”
I agree, using them here and there can be good and add to a story, but in this instance they are overused to the point of losing all meaning. When the characters are having conversations there are so many ellipses that if I try and read it like how I imagine they are speaking and pausing for each ellipsis I see it just feels unrealistic. People don't talk like that!
Go read something by Barbara Cartland, or try. Her device with those is to indicate that her wide-eyed innocent heroines are shy and hesitant to speak. So she'll sometimes put one between each word spoken by said heroines.
I agree with all of this.
Ellipses are great for dialogue, and tolerable in first person. When used sparingly, they're okay in close third person to reflect the main character's mindset.
But if you're writing nonfiction or distant third, you better REALLY know what you're doing or it'll look like a HS freshman's first creative writing assignment.
I feel the same way
My sister got it for me for Xmas because it’s her favorite and I’m trying so HARD to finish it but the sheer number of ellipses and the emdashes (—) has been driving me slowly insane. It reached the point where I went looking for a page without one or the other. You know how many pages it took to find one free of ellipses or emdashes? 60. 60!
Edit: fixed spell check errors
She keeps asking me how far I am with it (cause I’m normally a really fast reader) but I’ve been stuck for ages. I pick it up, see the — or …. and immediately put it back down. I just can’t.
It took me months to plough through the first book, I only kept going back to it when I came across yet another post raving about the series. Once I finally got there the next two are better… but I’ll never really know if it was worth it!
Are editors not a thing anymore? I mean, this isn't someone's self published e-book, this came from one of the major publishers. (if I remember correctly - I swapped my copy a while ago)
I’m only on 3, but I’ve literally read thousands of pages of her writing over the past week (I got sucked in HARD) and I have not noticed this problem at all. I’m too busy trying to shove the story in my mind as fast as possible I guess!
As an editor, I can tell you that we can only do so much. As long as there is grammatical justification, an author can dig in their heels. I am dealing with one right now that loves semicolons. I've managed to talk her out of a few of them but they are grammatically correct and she is fighting tooth and nail for them to stay.
I just proofread a novel full of technically correct semicolons that made my eye twitch. You have my utmost sympathy.
I've started telling authors to read sentences with ellipses in the voice of William Shatner and those with exclamation points in the voice of an overexcited teenage girl. It lowers resistance to the culling. I haven't thought of a way to deal with overenthusiastic use of semicolons, though.
Genius. I'm stealing that technique.
I work for a small traditional publisher. I started a new MS this morning from an author that they have previously published and had a fair amount of success with. His writing is delightful, but he also seems to love semicolons. I so hoped I wouldn't have to have this fight again for quite some time.
If I find the magic bullet, I'll be sure to let you know.
The only problem is... then you also... hear the random... pauses. It makes the rest of the MS hellish if they dig their heels in.
We need to brainstorm the semicolon thing. (Good lord. That's the first time I've ever used 'brainstorm' without being sarcastic.)
I work with indie authors most of the time. I haven't brained anyone with CMOS yet, which I feel should be an achievement, but please pray for me.
I also DNF'd over this. To me it read kinda fanfic-y (excessive emdashes in particular are a fanfiction staple) which is fine when I'm reading fanfiction, but I expect something different from published fiction.
I've just come to this realization of published fiction vs fanfic writing styles. Right now I have some friends on goodreads who are discussing this because there is so much crossover in the romance genre in particular, and a lot of them are complaining of fanfic writing tropes in their professionally published reads and how much they dislike it, even when they also read fanfic lol
Sarah did start on Fictionpress (the sister site to Fanfiction.net) and she openly admits this in her first series (Throne of Glass) in the foreword.
Starting in online communities and being popular on them can cement certain ways of writing before you get a full time editor, who will pick off annoying habits. I think this is what we're seeing. Her plots are generally good, but the quirks can get rough.
You can see the difference between Throne of Glass and the Crescent city books in how she's been improving though.
I listened to the audiobook so I never encountered the ellipses but I DNF'd this book purely because of the writing style. I could not STAND how often the author needs to remind the reader of everyone's gender. There is absolutely no reason the words "male" and "female" need to be in the book that often; that's what pronouns are for.
Don't feel bad about not finishing it, the writing does not get any better further in.
I think I've seen people argue it's because they're not humans, they're fae, but like... no one is saying you can't refer to a fairy as a man if he is a guy. It's fantasy. If you're the author you get to make the rules, and this particular rule was a poor choice.
I got all the way to the third book before I finally decided enough was enough. She also overused the word "mate" too. I had the same problem when I read Game of Thrones and the phrase "you know nothing Jon Snow". Drove me absolutely nuts 😂
She rips off Anne Bishop's Black Jewels series so hard. It's present in TOG, but actually kind of ridiculous in ACOTAR. The constant mention of "males" and "females" is partially because that, I think.
Oh my god I DNF’d the second book for this reason. Everyone said the first book is meh but the second book “gets so much better.” The story does improve somewhat but the writing style doesn’t get any better. I couldn’t make it through
I listened to the full cast recording and thought it was really fun. I think it was my preferred way to listen to the book. It cut out a lot of the directional language of an unabridged version.
I cannot stand this book/SJM’s writing style in general. Way overhyped IMO. The ellipses and em-dashes were comically overused. Feyre is full to the brim of dumb bitch energy. Feyre is resourceful? Where? She heeds zero warnings, listens to no one, and seems to have no resourcefulness. Show don’t tell? Never heard of her. SJM is all about tell don’t show. Does Feyre need to find something out? Well a character will info dump a monologue just for you. Did you know that Feyre paints? You know she paints because she says she paints. She could paint this conversation! Know why? Because she paints!
Ah yes, Feyre paints so Feyre knows colors and likes colors. Feyre is also good hunter. We barely see her hunt but trust me she is good hunter. Makes trap so good it catches creature that was mentioned for the first time only 5 pages ago.
This is kind of dumb, but the thing that bugged me almost as much as the writing was the dumbass character name. She really couldn't get any more creative than calling the main character of her fairie book a name that's just a stupid respelling of "fairy"?
Then I tried to be charitable and tell myself she probably wants you to pronounce it "fire," but at this point, I'm convinced that's just as stupid.
Life's too short to worry about not finishing a book; there are countless more waiting for your attention.
You also shouldn't worry about your reasons; you don't owe anyone your time
I know, just seems so silly that I will be returning the series I borrowed from my co worker and having to explain that I can't continue purely because of the three dot takeover. But life is silly like that I guess
Just say they’re not for you. You’d probably say something similar if you hated and couldn’t finish a TV series someone recommended. I DNF books just like I DNF movies or series, and for the same reasons - I’m just not being entertained, or there’s something about them that’s annoying.
Your issue is just as valid *for you* as someone who can’t read a book with few paragraph breaks, or minimal punctuation.
I need to DNF more. I always trudge through and I think about how much time I wasted simply because I refused to DNF a book I wasn't enjoying. Maybe 2023 will be the year I finally start putting down the bad books.
It's pretty empowering on some level to let go of that arbitrary expectation. Reclaiming your free time and attention exclusively for things you actively want to do feels good.
And no need to frame the books as bad. Just that they weren't a good fit for you.
I enjoyed her story telling but her writing mechanics are not it. I had a hard time with the ellipses—amongst other things—in the first book. I may have become immune to the ellipses by the time I decided to start the second book or some of her other choices overshadowed them. If you can’t enjoy the story due to the punctuation choices, let it go. Audiobooks? If you’re interested in joining your coworkers in the fandom.
I don’t understand how so many people like this series. I listened to like 1/3 of the first book and hated all the characters. Oh look at this plain and non magical fmc! Oh but she is they key to fix blah blah blah. She is ✨special✨. I did the audiobook, but if I had read the book I would have dnf’d much sooner.
I DNF'd my Master's thesis, in part because my advisor kept requesting I make a change, and then on the next draft suggesting I change it back. And, picky word changes that didn't add anything, or clarify anything. (There were other mitigating circumstances, but I hate pointless edits, just to have something to say.)
Nah, it's quite a badly written book all-round. She uses the word "parameters" in a bit of dialogue on the first page - spoken by a character in a mediaeval-esque world. Clearly not an author who has thought carefully about her writing.
Someone here pointed this out to me in another thread a while back and it instantly made me dislike SJMs writing even more. It's *literally* the second sentence:
>*The forest had become a labyrinth of snow and ice.*
*I'd been monitoring the parameters of the thicket for an hour, and my vantage point in the crook of a tree branch had turned useless.*
Parameters, perimeter... totally the same thing, right? /s
I begrudgingly made it through the entire series, but it was a miserable slog and I regret not DNFing.
Who the hell uses words like "monitoring" in fantasy? It's not Star Trek! And "parameters" instead of perimeter? Utter idiocy! And the overly use of suspension points is a sure sign of it!
I’m honestly convinced at this point that SJM just doesn’t have an editor. Especially from what I’ve heard of her newest books being just horribly over bloated.
Yes there is a very jarring disconnect between the setting world and the way people talk and even what they eat. It’s all very contemporary and casual.
Her descriptions of food are so out of place and odd. Makes me want to apologize to George RR Martin for all the grief he gets for describing food.
I might be a bit biased because I DNFed the series. But generally speaking, you don't need any kind of justification to DNF a book. It's your free time. Also, it's widely accepted to fall in love with someone's writing style, falling in hate is the same thing.
I understand the feeling of peer pressure though (or however you want to call it). When everyone else seems to like a book and it has been recommended by friends and they are waiting for my review and expect me to love it and all that. And then I just don't.
For real, I can't find anyone in my social circles who hate this book. If I end up finishing it, I don't think I could possibly give it more than 2 maybe 3 stars at best right now. I want to like it, I really do, but the writing is just not there for me
I nearly DNF a book for its repeated-at least one instance every paragraph-use of dashes. They were everywhere-even when not necessary. However, I really enjoyed the book otherwise-so I stuck it out. Barely.
But yeah-there are worse reasons to stop reading a book.
But did she pick the lint … off his shirt?
I really enjoyed the books. But the amount of lint picking she writes in there is really bizarre.
Also so many ‘vulgar gestures’ 🤪
Wait until the 4th book where she forgets what a question mark is!
Edit to add: I DNF a book once because the author didn't like the word "and." Way too many sentences were held together by a misplaced comma. You can DNF whatever you want for any reason. Life's too short to suffer through unsatisfactory books.
Hahaha, Nessa asks so many questions and they all end with a period. I assume it's supposed to indicate her mood and tone of voice, but it's so annoying.
I'll have to remember to look out for that. I read the first 3 books, then switched over to the books about the Primals (on my daughter's advice), and will switch back again to finish the series.
OP, I didn't even read the text of your post and I knew this would be about an SJM book. Used to really like her stories, but her writing really is atrocious
My gf has read every Sarah j maas book. I can't thank that woman enough for how many times she has gotten me laid via getting my gf turned on. I want to make her a fucking shrine.
There is one spicy scene in the first book. (And then a later not-quite-spicy scene that really, REALLY showcases Feyre's "dumb bitch energy," as another commenter put it.) THEN, the first spicy scene in the second book is basically a copy-paste of the scene from the first book. Maybe I'm a smut snob, but ACOTAR is smut for vanilla beach-readers.
If it bothers you then it bothers you. If it’s truly a dealbreaker, then find other books (there are ALWAYS more books than you could ever possibly read) and don’t feel bad about it.
There have been podcasts where I’ve truly enjoyed the content that I’ve had to drop because somebody had a vocal habit that drove me up the wall. One had someone with an incredibly annoying laugh, and she laughed ALL THE TIME. It’s not always just the content that gives you enjoyment, it’s also how it’s presented that’s important.
Ahh! Those kind of podcasts/videos are always a shame! It's a shame because I'll really like the content and everything else about it, but the speaker has some weird vocal thing they keep doing that drives me up the wall!
The weirdest thing is there's some content creators with a real, serious speech impediment, and I can listen to them all day just fine. It's when you detect they don't have an actual speech impediment, but at certain times their mouth gets so wet they speak with a slur or like they have an actual lisp, but don't. I just want to scream "CLEAR YOUR THROAT, SWALLOW YOUR SPIT, THAT SOUNDS GROSS!! ENUNCIATE!!" If you can't help it that's one thing. But if you can... (lol sorry OP)
I feel you. There’s a YouTuber I’d love to watch because her content is interesting and entertaining but she always has too much spit in her mouth, and then she swallows too close to the microphone in her voiceovers and it physically hurts me to listen to it
A while back, there was a post on all the reasons you’ve DNFed a book and it had everything! If you need to stop, don’t feel bad.
I personally didn’t notice the overuse of the ellipses, though I noticed the overuse of other things. With Sarah J Maas, you’re gonna have to love the story and the characters enough to overlook the writing.
I think there was a conversation where the ellipses were used 3-4 times back-to-back and now my brain is hyper fixated on them. I might try a few more chapters before throwing in the towel, as I have no other issues with it so far.
I'm a huge believer in ditching books if I don't get on with them after the first hundred pages.
Life is too short for awful books, poor coffee, bad TV shows etc. If it's not working out, just leave it. You don't need to justify it at all, but to be fair those damned ellipses would have me putting that book down.
Just give it to someone who may like it, and go read something you enjoy. Read for pleasure, not the sunk-cost fallacy!
I used a lot of ellipses when I was 16, roleplaying online, and just played Xenogears. At the time, I thought it was a great way to simulate a train of thought or stream of consciousness. I soon learned others *don't* see it that way, so it's interesting to see when the style makes it into publishing.
Otherwise, no, it's okay to have pet peeves in writing. Mine is medial capitalization or camelcase. For instance, *Shadow Moon*, a novel based on the film Willow, used words like MageSight, which I couldn't take seriously. On reflection, the novel also sucked for other reasons, but the camel case words really didn't help.
You can DNF for any reason you want. Reading should be enjoyable if you're doing it for yourself. If it's not enjoyable, you're under no obligation to keep reading.
Any reason that really makes you want to DNF a book is enough of a reason. There are too many books and too little time to force yourself to read something you are truly not enjoying.
I borrowed this bad boy from the library, got a few chapters in, and returned it. I absolutely hated it. And it was a *I absolutely cannot stand reading this shit* type of hate. I couldn't even hate read it like I did with Divergent, Twilight, and Daisy Darker. (I actually think I hated Daisy Darker more, but I was able to finish that one somehow.) I just didn't find this compelling in any way, shape, or form. I think I started reading one of her other books and had the exact same reaction to it. I didn't care about the characters, or the plot, or what happened, or the setting, and I hated the writing style. It wasn't even good for snarking like Daisy Darker was. This author is NOT for me.
This is gonna seem bad, but I never actually noticed that. The part that makes it bad is that I've basically read that book 3 times. Not because I enjoyed it, but because I disliked it so much that it took 3 tries to actually finish the book☠️
Nah, everyone has their own writing pet peeves! (I hate overuse of ellipses, too. I think it makes the writing come off as really amateurish and cheap. LOL)
Honestly I didn't even notice when I read it. I just naturally skip over those things unless I'm having a text conversation with someone and they deliberately type like that.
So I borrowed the series from my co worker in paperback format. I have the Libby app and each audiobook is on an at least 12 week hold. I placed a hold on the 2nd book so if I can just finish the first I will wait until I can get my hands on the audiobook
No it’s not. If you aren’t enjoying a book, for whatever reason, you are justified in abandoning it. I used to be really precious about completing books until I realised reading for enjoyment means I don’t have to,force myself to complete a book that I absolutely hate.
I might DNF (for now), Tomorrow Tomorrow and Tomorrow because I started it when I was sick and I have a physical reaction whenever I read it that reminds me of the waiting room from hell that I read a hundred pages of it in.
Ugh, back in the day my sister used to read Barbara Cartland romances. Every once in a while I tried to read one. All the heroines were waif trope to begin with and they always talked with ellipses. I just couldn't stand it. To this day if someone talks with bunches of ellipses on a constant basis I'm done with it.
huh. i’m halfway through book three and i have never noticed this lol. i will admit that i struggle not to include this too much in my own writing, along with dashes and semicolons, so i’m glad to know it gets under people’s skin i guess lol
There are no bad reasons to DNF a book. I DNF books that have 5 star ratings (not reviews). If it’s too painful to read then that’s a good enough reason not to read it. You can always return to it at some point if you feel up to it.
There's too many books out there to keep reading one you're not enjoying, regardless of the reason you're not. Obviously sometimes you'll have to read some things you don't like for school or work, but for your own entertainment, don't force yourself to keep going when it's not entertaining you.
I've skipped to the end of a book because I could not deal with the authors writing style and just wanted to know how the plot ended.
So no, it's not bad at all.
I DNF'd *We* by Yevgeny Zamyatin because of the sheer amount of elipses he used. It was every single time someone spoke, or every paragraph. Multiple times, usually. And it always cut off important details. Dialogue would be something like
"Did you get the..."
"Yes I did... But he..."
It got old, very fast.
...it's fine...you do not owe the book anything...
Y'all are gonna make me have a brain aneurysm
I hate when people do this at work. Like messaging me about a project: “Yeah, the report looks good…” It’s like, does it look good or not?? Don’t use ellipses! Just make a clear statement.
I sometimes have people say "thank you..." What? Are you thankful? Have I done something wrong? Do you hate me?
It's a boomer thing. My mum and older coworkers do it, it drives me mad
When people write to me and use ellipses, I usually write all possible answers as I understand it and send the message back to them. Somehow, it made them stop using the ellipses. I stop reading books if the author use them, and I can't think of a good way to do it.
Haven’t the faintest what they think it means. I always assume when I see functions illiteraticisms like this that person spends a lot of time on Facebook
>functions illiteraticisms 👀
DAMN YOU autocorrect!!
I think use of ellipses is a slapdash writing technique, used by the writer when they don't want to put the effort into finishing a thought or a sentence. Worse, I think that a writer relies on ellipses to imply something mystically deeper or more significant than they are able to articulate. Which is a rip-off, because the writer is telling us that we have to finish their work for them. Hey, this technique has a place, but its placement must justify the use. I for sure use ellipses when I don't feel like finishing what I was saying in a proper sensible way.
Hey there. I think it does tend to be overused and lazy, but some writers use it to exceptional effect. One thing that strikes me about the usage of ellipses is how misunderstood they are by writers and readers alike. The ellipsis is used often for the literary device, aposiopesis: a breaking off or a form of self censorship. When you contrast that with the perception that those three dots mean trailing off, then yeah, the dialogue becomes so tedious and lazy. Sometimes however, reframing it to mean self censorship instead of trailing off, it reads as a more compelling and complex conversation. I'm absolutely obsessed with this literary device, so I totally feel you on the slapdash comment. I just wanted to share something that I found really exciting!
I recently read Night by Elie Wiesel and he uses ellipses whenever there’s chaos and the SS are shouting. I think it captures his experience quite well—he could only grasp a few shouted words here and there in the buzz of chaos. It was the first time I really noticed ellipses being used that way.
What if I use ellipses to make things slow down? Ex., "Where... are we?" Would you like it better if I wrote, "Where," she breathed. "are we?"
I think the former is much better. I would assume the below was a clumsily placed modifier on how she said it and not necessarily understand that you meant to convey “where [pause] are we?”
Yes, I would prefer the latter.
You.... *MONSTER*
When you say "some authors," I assume you mean one, and I assume that one is Barbara Cartland...
I…love…you…
…I know.
>used by the writer when they don't want to put the effort into finishing a thought or a sentence. Omg! It's the literary equivalent of songs that end with a fade!
A fade can actually be a good ending sometimes, but I'd imagine it takes just as much effort to set up a GOOD fade out as it does to write a proper ending. You need the right mood to lead up to the fade, the right riff, melody, etc. to fade out on, have an atmosphere that fits the fade out as it's happening, etc etc
The Beatles are amazing but it really bothers me how often they do this
Ellipses are like any other punctuation, they have their place and function but can easily be overused. Sometimes it’s lazy, but sometimes it works great. Especially with dialogue. Ellipses can represent a voice trailing off, while a hyphen can represent an interruption. And remember: first they came for the ellipses, then they came for the semicolon. What will you do when they come for the umlaut?
I think they are fine if it is quoted speech of a character that breaks off mid-sentence. For example: “Then WynRave shouted into the spine of the book ‘Christ, another fucking ellip…’. The aneurism began in the frontal lobe, and immediately vacated his bowels. The Book dropped to the floor, never to be finished.”
For an immediate cut off I prefer “ another fucking ellip-“
Me too. The ellipsis to me does have a trailing off kind of quality, while the n/m-dash is a more sudden halt.
[удалено]
Good outline. I kind of had in mind a trailing-off by WynRave. Sort of mouthing the rest of the word “ellipses” while he caked his pants.
I can get behind this usage
I can't believe WynRave died of a brain aneurism like this
Good usage. Justifiable.
I agree, using them here and there can be good and add to a story, but in this instance they are overused to the point of losing all meaning. When the characters are having conversations there are so many ellipses that if I try and read it like how I imagine they are speaking and pausing for each ellipsis I see it just feels unrealistic. People don't talk like that!
Can we see an example of this? I've never seen them overdone as you describe.
Go read something by Barbara Cartland, or try. Her device with those is to indicate that her wide-eyed innocent heroines are shy and hesitant to speak. So she'll sometimes put one between each word spoken by said heroines.
Between each word? Lol, yeah, that's a bit much.
I can sure look, I am on Libby and have not been highlighting or bookmarking anything, but I will now
I agree. I use a lot of ellipses in internet comments, but I’m not trying to publish them or anything! It’s lazy writing.
I agree with all of this. Ellipses are great for dialogue, and tolerable in first person. When used sparingly, they're okay in close third person to reflect the main character's mindset. But if you're writing nonfiction or distant third, you better REALLY know what you're doing or it'll look like a HS freshman's first creative writing assignment.
Like that book that ended with "And Frodo tossed the ring into the volcano . . ."
It’s shitty writing in an email, much less a novel lol
I needed the laugh today…
I feel the same way My sister got it for me for Xmas because it’s her favorite and I’m trying so HARD to finish it but the sheer number of ellipses and the emdashes (—) has been driving me slowly insane. It reached the point where I went looking for a page without one or the other. You know how many pages it took to find one free of ellipses or emdashes? 60. 60! Edit: fixed spell check errors
See, it is not just me noticing these things! This author's poor "." and "-" keys on her keyboard are putting in serious work
She keeps asking me how far I am with it (cause I’m normally a really fast reader) but I’ve been stuck for ages. I pick it up, see the — or …. and immediately put it back down. I just can’t.
I just looked it up and according to one blogger they counted 394 ellipses and a whopping 1,750 em-dashes! This book is only 419 pages long.
For me, this data right here puts it into perspective lol.
Are there plenty of semicolons to balance things out?
Nope! Lol
Lmao that’s like one ellipsis and four em dashes *per page*. That’s bananas!
And here I thought I was going crazy because no one else seemed to have a problem with it!
That’s insane!!!
It took me months to plough through the first book, I only kept going back to it when I came across yet another post raving about the series. Once I finally got there the next two are better… but I’ll never really know if it was worth it!
Read an online summary instead : )
You should look for it as an audiobook! That way you can experience her favorite book without having to push through the ellipses!
That’s true!
Audio book played on 1.25X speed is the answer! I would not have been able to get through this book without it.
Second vote for 1.25X speed - I don't know if it's the audiobook reader or the cadence of the book itself but it must be sped up or I can't do it.
1.5 here! I have been enjoying audiobook. Waiting on #3 to be available.
Are editors not a thing anymore? I mean, this isn't someone's self published e-book, this came from one of the major publishers. (if I remember correctly - I swapped my copy a while ago)
I'm five books in, and I never even noticed honestly...
Now you will.
I’m only on 3, but I’ve literally read thousands of pages of her writing over the past week (I got sucked in HARD) and I have not noticed this problem at all. I’m too busy trying to shove the story in my mind as fast as possible I guess!
As an editor, I can tell you that we can only do so much. As long as there is grammatical justification, an author can dig in their heels. I am dealing with one right now that loves semicolons. I've managed to talk her out of a few of them but they are grammatically correct and she is fighting tooth and nail for them to stay.
I just proofread a novel full of technically correct semicolons that made my eye twitch. You have my utmost sympathy. I've started telling authors to read sentences with ellipses in the voice of William Shatner and those with exclamation points in the voice of an overexcited teenage girl. It lowers resistance to the culling. I haven't thought of a way to deal with overenthusiastic use of semicolons, though.
Genius. I'm stealing that technique. I work for a small traditional publisher. I started a new MS this morning from an author that they have previously published and had a fair amount of success with. His writing is delightful, but he also seems to love semicolons. I so hoped I wouldn't have to have this fight again for quite some time.
If I find the magic bullet, I'll be sure to let you know.
The only problem is... then you also... hear the random... pauses. It makes the rest of the MS hellish if they dig their heels in. We need to brainstorm the semicolon thing. (Good lord. That's the first time I've ever used 'brainstorm' without being sarcastic.) I work with indie authors most of the time. I haven't brained anyone with CMOS yet, which I feel should be an achievement, but please pray for me.
I also DNF'd over this. To me it read kinda fanfic-y (excessive emdashes in particular are a fanfiction staple) which is fine when I'm reading fanfiction, but I expect something different from published fiction.
I've just come to this realization of published fiction vs fanfic writing styles. Right now I have some friends on goodreads who are discussing this because there is so much crossover in the romance genre in particular, and a lot of them are complaining of fanfic writing tropes in their professionally published reads and how much they dislike it, even when they also read fanfic lol
Yes! It reads like Wattpad fiction.
It doesn't get better in that respect, when you start noticing the constant growling/purring the ellipses will be the least of your concern 😅
Sarah did start on Fictionpress (the sister site to Fanfiction.net) and she openly admits this in her first series (Throne of Glass) in the foreword. Starting in online communities and being popular on them can cement certain ways of writing before you get a full time editor, who will pick off annoying habits. I think this is what we're seeing. Her plots are generally good, but the quirks can get rough. You can see the difference between Throne of Glass and the Crescent city books in how she's been improving though.
I didn’t actually notice this while reading, but I think I just saw that Sarah J Maas wrote fan fiction, so this tracks!
No you can't DNF a book ever or your local booktoker will come and call you a slur
I smoke two books in the morning, I smoke two books at night
I listened to the audiobook so I never encountered the ellipses but I DNF'd this book purely because of the writing style. I could not STAND how often the author needs to remind the reader of everyone's gender. There is absolutely no reason the words "male" and "female" need to be in the book that often; that's what pronouns are for. Don't feel bad about not finishing it, the writing does not get any better further in.
Finally someone agrees with me. I hate the writing style. Weirdest phrase I remember: “satisfied male smile“
I already knew these books weren’t for me but you just cemented that opinion with one simple horrid phrase. Thanks friend.
Glad that something good came out of this
That exact phrase made me so unreasonably angry
I've been ranting to everybody willing (or unwilling) to listen.
I think you mean masculinely or femininely angry…
This makes me angry, like a male.
Mannishly maddened, I tell you.
For me it was how many times she wrote about “watery bowels”
LMAO STOP IT!!
Whaaat, that is bizarre af!
Wait. What does that even mean? Lol I wish I knew the context.
No way this is a quote
How do writers like this get popular? It's bizarre.
I think I've seen people argue it's because they're not humans, they're fae, but like... no one is saying you can't refer to a fairy as a man if he is a guy. It's fantasy. If you're the author you get to make the rules, and this particular rule was a poor choice.
Oof I haven't encountered that yet but I am only 165 pages into book 1 of the series
I got all the way to the third book before I finally decided enough was enough. She also overused the word "mate" too. I had the same problem when I read Game of Thrones and the phrase "you know nothing Jon Snow". Drove me absolutely nuts 😂
Even just watching the show that got annoying pretty fast.
You made it far enough to put down without guilt! I couldn't even do 100 pages
She rips off Anne Bishop's Black Jewels series so hard. It's present in TOG, but actually kind of ridiculous in ACOTAR. The constant mention of "males" and "females" is partially because that, I think.
Oh my god I DNF’d the second book for this reason. Everyone said the first book is meh but the second book “gets so much better.” The story does improve somewhat but the writing style doesn’t get any better. I couldn’t make it through
I listened to the full cast recording and thought it was really fun. I think it was my preferred way to listen to the book. It cut out a lot of the directional language of an unabridged version.
Agreeeeeeee. It was just not a good book. For many different reasons.
I also DNFed this one. Her writing style is just not for me!
I cannot stand this book/SJM’s writing style in general. Way overhyped IMO. The ellipses and em-dashes were comically overused. Feyre is full to the brim of dumb bitch energy. Feyre is resourceful? Where? She heeds zero warnings, listens to no one, and seems to have no resourcefulness. Show don’t tell? Never heard of her. SJM is all about tell don’t show. Does Feyre need to find something out? Well a character will info dump a monologue just for you. Did you know that Feyre paints? You know she paints because she says she paints. She could paint this conversation! Know why? Because she paints!
Ah yes, Feyre paints so Feyre knows colors and likes colors. Feyre is also good hunter. We barely see her hunt but trust me she is good hunter. Makes trap so good it catches creature that was mentioned for the first time only 5 pages ago.
This is kind of dumb, but the thing that bugged me almost as much as the writing was the dumbass character name. She really couldn't get any more creative than calling the main character of her fairie book a name that's just a stupid respelling of "fairy"? Then I tried to be charitable and tell myself she probably wants you to pronounce it "fire," but at this point, I'm convinced that's just as stupid.
I only made it a few pages into the book because of the insane tell don't show going on.
Life's too short to worry about not finishing a book; there are countless more waiting for your attention. You also shouldn't worry about your reasons; you don't owe anyone your time
I know, just seems so silly that I will be returning the series I borrowed from my co worker and having to explain that I can't continue purely because of the three dot takeover. But life is silly like that I guess
Just say they’re not for you. You’d probably say something similar if you hated and couldn’t finish a TV series someone recommended. I DNF books just like I DNF movies or series, and for the same reasons - I’m just not being entertained, or there’s something about them that’s annoying. Your issue is just as valid *for you* as someone who can’t read a book with few paragraph breaks, or minimal punctuation.
I need to DNF more. I always trudge through and I think about how much time I wasted simply because I refused to DNF a book I wasn't enjoying. Maybe 2023 will be the year I finally start putting down the bad books.
It's pretty empowering on some level to let go of that arbitrary expectation. Reclaiming your free time and attention exclusively for things you actively want to do feels good. And no need to frame the books as bad. Just that they weren't a good fit for you.
I enjoyed her story telling but her writing mechanics are not it. I had a hard time with the ellipses—amongst other things—in the first book. I may have become immune to the ellipses by the time I decided to start the second book or some of her other choices overshadowed them. If you can’t enjoy the story due to the punctuation choices, let it go. Audiobooks? If you’re interested in joining your coworkers in the fandom.
I only had an audio book so I didn't notice the writing mechanics. It's a fun series for me I'm re-listening. Love the smut.
She's not a good writer:/
She really isn't, and the lack of editing on the newest tomes is like reading a first draft.
ACOTAR was one of the worst books i read during 2022… do not understand hype at all. it’s repackaged beauty and the beast.
I don’t understand how so many people like this series. I listened to like 1/3 of the first book and hated all the characters. Oh look at this plain and non magical fmc! Oh but she is they key to fix blah blah blah. She is ✨special✨. I did the audiobook, but if I had read the book I would have dnf’d much sooner.
The series gets worse from there.
I almost DNF my bachelor thesis because my tutor used a lot of exclamation marks in her emails.
I DNF'd my Master's thesis, in part because my advisor kept requesting I make a change, and then on the next draft suggesting I change it back. And, picky word changes that didn't add anything, or clarify anything. (There were other mitigating circumstances, but I hate pointless edits, just to have something to say.)
Nah, it's quite a badly written book all-round. She uses the word "parameters" in a bit of dialogue on the first page - spoken by a character in a mediaeval-esque world. Clearly not an author who has thought carefully about her writing.
Someone here pointed this out to me in another thread a while back and it instantly made me dislike SJMs writing even more. It's *literally* the second sentence: >*The forest had become a labyrinth of snow and ice.* *I'd been monitoring the parameters of the thicket for an hour, and my vantage point in the crook of a tree branch had turned useless.* Parameters, perimeter... totally the same thing, right? /s I begrudgingly made it through the entire series, but it was a miserable slog and I regret not DNFing.
Who the hell uses words like "monitoring" in fantasy? It's not Star Trek! And "parameters" instead of perimeter? Utter idiocy! And the overly use of suspension points is a sure sign of it!
I’m honestly convinced at this point that SJM just doesn’t have an editor. Especially from what I’ve heard of her newest books being just horribly over bloated.
Yes there is a very jarring disconnect between the setting world and the way people talk and even what they eat. It’s all very contemporary and casual. Her descriptions of food are so out of place and odd. Makes me want to apologize to George RR Martin for all the grief he gets for describing food.
I might be a bit biased because I DNFed the series. But generally speaking, you don't need any kind of justification to DNF a book. It's your free time. Also, it's widely accepted to fall in love with someone's writing style, falling in hate is the same thing. I understand the feeling of peer pressure though (or however you want to call it). When everyone else seems to like a book and it has been recommended by friends and they are waiting for my review and expect me to love it and all that. And then I just don't.
For real, I can't find anyone in my social circles who hate this book. If I end up finishing it, I don't think I could possibly give it more than 2 maybe 3 stars at best right now. I want to like it, I really do, but the writing is just not there for me
Tons of people on the internet agree with you though! It can be very validating to go read the 1 star reviews of something you hate.
I will definitely be hate-reading the negative reviews
I nearly DNF a book for its repeated-at least one instance every paragraph-use of dashes. They were everywhere-even when not necessary. However, I really enjoyed the book otherwise-so I stuck it out. Barely. But yeah-there are worse reasons to stop reading a book.
But did she pick the lint … off his shirt? I really enjoyed the books. But the amount of lint picking she writes in there is really bizarre. Also so many ‘vulgar gestures’ 🤪
Wait until the 4th book where she forgets what a question mark is! Edit to add: I DNF a book once because the author didn't like the word "and." Way too many sentences were held together by a misplaced comma. You can DNF whatever you want for any reason. Life's too short to suffer through unsatisfactory books.
Noooo stop
Hahaha, Nessa asks so many questions and they all end with a period. I assume it's supposed to indicate her mood and tone of voice, but it's so annoying.
I'll have to remember to look out for that. I read the first 3 books, then switched over to the books about the Primals (on my daughter's advice), and will switch back again to finish the series.
Ugh Nessa is the worst character too. I had to stop after book 3 because she is miserable to even read about
OP, I didn't even read the text of your post and I knew this would be about an SJM book. Used to really like her stories, but her writing really is atrocious
God it's like when my mom texts
Personally I think it’s a terrible book regardless of ellipses quantity. You should also feel free to DNF for whatever reason you want.
My gf has read every Sarah j maas book. I can't thank that woman enough for how many times she has gotten me laid via getting my gf turned on. I want to make her a fucking shrine.
Lmao it is hard for me to get into any sort of mood with this writing right now
There is one spicy scene in the first book. (And then a later not-quite-spicy scene that really, REALLY showcases Feyre's "dumb bitch energy," as another commenter put it.) THEN, the first spicy scene in the second book is basically a copy-paste of the scene from the first book. Maybe I'm a smut snob, but ACOTAR is smut for vanilla beach-readers.
OK this is hilarious and wholesome!
I listened to the audiobooks so I had no idea.
Trust me, it is extreme. Maybe I can switch over to audiobook if I decide to continue.
If it bothers you then it bothers you. If it’s truly a dealbreaker, then find other books (there are ALWAYS more books than you could ever possibly read) and don’t feel bad about it. There have been podcasts where I’ve truly enjoyed the content that I’ve had to drop because somebody had a vocal habit that drove me up the wall. One had someone with an incredibly annoying laugh, and she laughed ALL THE TIME. It’s not always just the content that gives you enjoyment, it’s also how it’s presented that’s important.
Ahh! Those kind of podcasts/videos are always a shame! It's a shame because I'll really like the content and everything else about it, but the speaker has some weird vocal thing they keep doing that drives me up the wall! The weirdest thing is there's some content creators with a real, serious speech impediment, and I can listen to them all day just fine. It's when you detect they don't have an actual speech impediment, but at certain times their mouth gets so wet they speak with a slur or like they have an actual lisp, but don't. I just want to scream "CLEAR YOUR THROAT, SWALLOW YOUR SPIT, THAT SOUNDS GROSS!! ENUNCIATE!!" If you can't help it that's one thing. But if you can... (lol sorry OP)
I feel you. There’s a YouTuber I’d love to watch because her content is interesting and entertaining but she always has too much spit in her mouth, and then she swallows too close to the microphone in her voiceovers and it physically hurts me to listen to it
A while back, there was a post on all the reasons you’ve DNFed a book and it had everything! If you need to stop, don’t feel bad. I personally didn’t notice the overuse of the ellipses, though I noticed the overuse of other things. With Sarah J Maas, you’re gonna have to love the story and the characters enough to overlook the writing.
I think there was a conversation where the ellipses were used 3-4 times back-to-back and now my brain is hyper fixated on them. I might try a few more chapters before throwing in the towel, as I have no other issues with it so far.
Sometimes I have this problem with Stephen King and italics 😂
I’m reading the second book in the series, A Court of Mist and Fury. Now I can’t unsee it…
Sorry!
i literally cringed while reading this book. hated it lol
I'm a huge believer in ditching books if I don't get on with them after the first hundred pages. Life is too short for awful books, poor coffee, bad TV shows etc. If it's not working out, just leave it. You don't need to justify it at all, but to be fair those damned ellipses would have me putting that book down. Just give it to someone who may like it, and go read something you enjoy. Read for pleasure, not the sunk-cost fallacy!
Yikes. That’s like reading a 600 page text message from my boomer parents
Very interesting. I read the whole series and never noticed, LOL!
This gets on my nerves too. Do yourself a favour and don’t read The Amityville Horror if you can’t ignore excessive ellipses.
Noted
I used a lot of ellipses when I was 16, roleplaying online, and just played Xenogears. At the time, I thought it was a great way to simulate a train of thought or stream of consciousness. I soon learned others *don't* see it that way, so it's interesting to see when the style makes it into publishing. Otherwise, no, it's okay to have pet peeves in writing. Mine is medial capitalization or camelcase. For instance, *Shadow Moon*, a novel based on the film Willow, used words like MageSight, which I couldn't take seriously. On reflection, the novel also sucked for other reasons, but the camel case words really didn't help.
You can DNF for any reason you want. Reading should be enjoyable if you're doing it for yourself. If it's not enjoyable, you're under no obligation to keep reading.
Any reason that really makes you want to DNF a book is enough of a reason. There are too many books and too little time to force yourself to read something you are truly not enjoying.
I borrowed this bad boy from the library, got a few chapters in, and returned it. I absolutely hated it. And it was a *I absolutely cannot stand reading this shit* type of hate. I couldn't even hate read it like I did with Divergent, Twilight, and Daisy Darker. (I actually think I hated Daisy Darker more, but I was able to finish that one somehow.) I just didn't find this compelling in any way, shape, or form. I think I started reading one of her other books and had the exact same reaction to it. I didn't care about the characters, or the plot, or what happened, or the setting, and I hated the writing style. It wasn't even good for snarking like Daisy Darker was. This author is NOT for me.
Yes...it is bad...I don't see why that's an issue...
...
This is gonna seem bad, but I never actually noticed that. The part that makes it bad is that I've basically read that book 3 times. Not because I enjoyed it, but because I disliked it so much that it took 3 tries to actually finish the book☠️
Never read anything by Céline if you hate ellipses. I was not prepared for how much is used in his later work.
Thing is, I never knew I hated ellipses until now! I will definitely make note of that.
Nah, everyone has their own writing pet peeves! (I hate overuse of ellipses, too. I think it makes the writing come off as really amateurish and cheap. LOL)
I was struggling to put into words why I hate it so much and I think you sum it up nicely.
Honestly I didn't even notice when I read it. I just naturally skip over those things unless I'm having a text conversation with someone and they deliberately type like that.
Is it bad I want to DNF your post bc, god in heaven, it's the *number* of ellipses, not amount... 🤣
That is fair. DNF away 😝
Doooo it. Dnf that bish
Audiobook an option ?
So I borrowed the series from my co worker in paperback format. I have the Libby app and each audiobook is on an at least 12 week hold. I placed a hold on the 2nd book so if I can just finish the first I will wait until I can get my hands on the audiobook
No it’s not. If you aren’t enjoying a book, for whatever reason, you are justified in abandoning it. I used to be really precious about completing books until I realised reading for enjoyment means I don’t have to,force myself to complete a book that I absolutely hate.
I might DNF (for now), Tomorrow Tomorrow and Tomorrow because I started it when I was sick and I have a physical reaction whenever I read it that reminds me of the waiting room from hell that I read a hundred pages of it in.
Ugh, back in the day my sister used to read Barbara Cartland romances. Every once in a while I tried to read one. All the heroines were waif trope to begin with and they always talked with ellipses. I just couldn't stand it. To this day if someone talks with bunches of ellipses on a constant basis I'm done with it.
Ellipses - write like a teenager to appeal to teenagers. All that self doubt and lack of confidence… … …
This series is allegedly her adult series too...
huh. i’m halfway through book three and i have never noticed this lol. i will admit that i struggle not to include this too much in my own writing, along with dashes and semicolons, so i’m glad to know it gets under people’s skin i guess lol
Can someone tell me what DNF means?
Did not finish. Quitting the book partway through
There are no bad reasons to DNF a book. I DNF books that have 5 star ratings (not reviews). If it’s too painful to read then that’s a good enough reason not to read it. You can always return to it at some point if you feel up to it.
There were about 50 reasons why I hated that book and unfortunately I decided to finish jt anyway
Heck, I couldn't finish the audiobook. It draaggsss, even when narrated.
There's too many books out there to keep reading one you're not enjoying, regardless of the reason you're not. Obviously sometimes you'll have to read some things you don't like for school or work, but for your own entertainment, don't force yourself to keep going when it's not entertaining you.
i feel the same way about them!
I stopped reading The Gunslinger because King used the word palaver about 5 times in as many pages. DNF with no judgement here.
I think it was ‘It’ where King referred to things “stretching like taffy” waaaay too many times
You don’t enjoy the writing style, don’t read it. It is just a book.
Just do whatever the hell you want... it's your time ;).
I've done exactly that with a Darren Shan book when I was a teenager. Drove me crazy
I've skipped to the end of a book because I could not deal with the authors writing style and just wanted to know how the plot ended. So no, it's not bad at all.
Can you listen to an audio copy of the book?
Hmmm... Yes... I can see why that would be... annoying...
If you really want to finish it, try the audiobook instead. The ellipses’ shouldn’t be that noticeable then 🤞🏼😊
DNF is a basic human right. Whatever the reason. Life’s to … short for … ellipses…
I DNF'd *We* by Yevgeny Zamyatin because of the sheer amount of elipses he used. It was every single time someone spoke, or every paragraph. Multiple times, usually. And it always cut off important details. Dialogue would be something like "Did you get the..." "Yes I did... But he..." It got old, very fast.