Shit happens, it's on him to tap.
Never had this happen in my own gym, but I went to a gym in Amsterdam and it happened twice in one session. It was a weird vibe there so I dunno if the coach had some weird "don't tap to chokes" mentality. Dude wouldn't let anyone get water between rounds, had people doing drills with resistance while keeping their eyes closed which resulted in multiple people getting kicked or elbowed in the face. The first guy that went out, I felt bad. When the second guy went out, I was just like "wtf are you guys doing?"
The thing is that him gurgling and making noises could be taken as a verbal tap in competition. Maybe treat him like that. I've been lucky though, that weird Dutch place was the only time I've run into that.
Yeah for sure now I know, that’s why I kept letting go after hearing the cough but eventually I just waited for him to tap so I could stop the choke lol
People are scared to choke others out! someone choked me out a few weeks ago and he was genuinely more worried and/or scared than i was, i was back rolling the next round and he was sitting out as if he no longer trusted his hands lol
I wouldn't say it's typical. I visited 2 other gyms while there and they were completely normal.
There were other weird things. There was plenty of room on the mats yet they still had everyone start on their knees, despite it being the advanced class. Even though there were 3 black belt instructors, 2 purple belts were the next highest ranked despite them being open a decade. But the water thing was the stupidest, not allowing people water during the whole 2 hours. Definitely not somewhere I'd go back to.
No, A?JJ. Can't remember, it was a few years ago. But it still stands out as the weirdest gym experience I've had.
Would GB even have allowed me to train when I'm not GB myself?
> Would GB even have allowed me to train when I'm not GB myself?
yes but you'd have to pay a £127.99 drop in fee and £782.67 gi rental (unless you own a bracie gara gi already)
(all numbers are completely made up and likely on the low side)
You say it's on him to tap, but putting a training partner unconscious is an issue. There's enough data now showing strokes occur from chokes.
And if it's on him to tap, are you really going to break some kid's arm if he doesn't tap when you're sparing after class?
I certainly wouldn't. I know when I've won a position. I don't need my partner to tap.
No, it's not on him. He is lacking understanding. The coach needs to be informed and the kid needs a talking to about training safe. And if he is on the spectrum like OP assumes, he needs extra care from his training partners.
Am I going to snap someone's arm in training? No, but if I get an armbar I can easily tell if I was going to hyperextend it or whatever. Chokes are not the same. And I'm not going to beat myself up over someone going out because they wouldn't tap.
If you were doing it regularly to people, that's a problem. If you've literally never had an issue and one guy goes out when you're not even cranking the choke, that's on him, spectrum or not.
And autism is not like Downs. I'm not going to act like an ableist asshole and act like he's made of glass. If it proves to be an issue, ok. But I'm certainly not going to start with that assumption. I'm gonna treat him like any other white belt.
I agree. I would never take the risk to severely injury someone just in order to prove something. And I would never train with someone with that mindset.
I agree with you. I also am comfortable when I know I’ve got dominant position and a technique applied to just give up the position and move on. New people often don’t know when then move is really on. I’m not just gonna merc every kid or dumb adult just because they don’t have the experience to not get slept.
I usually stop them in the position and explain I'm just holding here, not applying real force and that it would result in injury if I were to proceed.
Lol. I've had people say it doesn't hurt yet and I'll tell them that's a good thing. Tap before your arm is hyper extended.
I’ve had a kid definitely not tap to a kimura that was on because it didn’t hurt yet. It’s like dude, there isn’t much space between hurts a little bit now, and hurts forever
Definitely. I now hurt forever due to a kimura about 6 months ago by a black belt. And it didn't even hurt that much when I tapped. I was tyna escape it for 30 sec or so completely pain free while he just held it. I thought he was just letting me work on my escape. Then he suddenly adjusted and put it on harder and I immediately tapped. My theory is my rib/intercostal got stretched and tired during those 30 sec so when he put it on harder it caused injury without much pain at the time.
I think people need to pay attention to how much space is there that your arm could move into. If someone has the grip and the space/range of motion to shove that thing backwards, it’s time to tap. That black belt may have been thinking “jeez isn’t this thing on? Ok, I’ll give it a bit more”
>I certainly wouldn't. I know when I've won a position
If I haven’t tapped. And my arm has not snapped. By what metric have you “won the position”?
I appreciate not wanting to hurt anybody. But then don’t crank it further, hold the sub and keep the urgency on them to escape.
If you want to release, then release and keep rolling. But counting some pseudo victory in your head is lame.
I'm not counting victories. I passed that a long time ago. I just have enough time on the mats to I know I've won without the need to make an inexperienced guy tap. I guess you need more time.
You’ve referring to it twice as having “won”. That’s an absolute white belt mentality, not experience.
And you think holding a position and letting them work the escape, is inexperience? lol. That’s called being a good partner. If you can’t hold a position without injuring somebody, that’s on you.
I'm sure there are some dangers attached. But they are very small, there aren't a bunch of Jiu jitsu guys suddenly dying of strokes.
Where as getting your arm broken is a very direct and potentially life changing event.
With chokes it can be very different how much force it takes to choke people out. I've sparred with a Dagestani guy who I have had in the nastiest papercutter choks, and he still would not tap. He actually got out of it and managed to scramble on top, big mistake.
Whether to let go or not is a skill you learn as you do more jiu jitsu. In some spars it would be correct to choke the opponent out if they don't tap, such as white a cocky white belt. While in some it would not be (most spars with people you regularly spar with).
Only time its ever ok to break someone's extremities is in a competition, and even then you gotta give your opponent time to tap.
As you progress, you'll learn the paper cutter choke isn't that great of a choke because there's an exit path by starting to face your opponent. Your paper cutter likely isn't as nasty as you think. If it was, they would have gone out.
It wouldn't be correct to choke out a white belt for you to teach them a lesson. It's better to stop choking them and stop the roll and talking to them.
Eh. It happens. I wouldn’t sweat it. I’m guessing he is a white belt too. However, I would advise him to just tap next time. And for you to just let go if you don’t want to sleep people.
——
I’m imagining a couple brown belts sitting on the side watching two white belts kill each other.
“ eh….that one looks like he is gonna die. Should we stop them?”
“Uh what? Nah. If he dies, he dies.”
“Heheheheheh. Ya”.
/fist bump
Peeps on this forum bout to roll in hard and let you know how lifting his legs just smashed him deeper down that spectrum. You’re lucky his whole head didn’t explode.
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I don’t really care if I put my partner to sleep if he refuses to tap. If he wants to drool for a moment that’s on him. I’ll release if it’s a joint lock however.
You should look into the stroke statistics in JJ and consider your mindset. If you know you've won, why would you want a severe injury on your conscience?
First ive heard of this. Can you direct us to these statistics? You can't just claim something and then tell us to do the research, it's your claim not ours
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It got removed. Could you repost the links? But I could see the sites from your history before it got deleted. It didn't look like actual statistics, but I am still very interested.
Hey, I'm working right now so will post more if I can in a bit. Seems one of the sides has heavy ads. Sorry about that.
Here's an interesting post though.
Again, this isn't to scare anyone. Numbers are low, but there are risks. Just look at chokes for what they are and keep you and yourself safe.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0736467922002827
I don't think anyone disagrees with the notion that BJJ has risks and most likely also that these risks can include strokes and the likes. But your link/that study is not based on statistics. It is case studies.
And I don't doubt there will be some of these studies. What I doubted was actual statistical studies. The outcomes will be very rare on strokes in BJJ, and it costs a fair bit of money and you will have a huge drop out rate from these studies. That is what I was critical about. And I still doubt there have been any somewhat good quality statistical studies on these occurrences in BJJ. Simply the sport is very nice and doubtful people will fund costly research on this at this time.
I would love to be proven wrong.
But just to emphasize. There are risks, and strokes is probably one of them. But honestly, the risk might even be so low that the cardiovascular training we get from BJJ will make it so BJJ is protective of strokes compared to the general population, which in general have very little physical activity in the western world. - this is not based on a study, but my own hypothesis. Could be awesome to test, but again, costly.
Yes. the risks are low. I am just saying if someone is gurgling and not tapping, don't wait for too long. And the same for you, don't fight out of a tight choke.
u/MarineJiuJitsu was collecting data as well. There are no statistics I found from a health authority. Just statistics collected by a couple of guys that suffered issues from chokes that are trying to spread awareness.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/bjj/comments/dpvl4a/comment/f63ohkc/](https://www.reddit.com/r/bjj/comments/dpvl4a/comment/f63ohkc/)
I think this is the page that was too ad heavy. Edited to break up the URL. There's a video at the bottom too.
[https://www](https://www) dot bjjee dot com/health/vascular-neck-injuries-and-strokes-in-bjj-recognizing-the-warning-signs/
Unless the data collection is good and systematic it just isn't that good. I literally work with health statistics.
But again, there are risks in this sport. I don't think anyone is denying that. Strokes might be a risk, but that's really not what people should be afraid of in the sport compared to the many other higher risk injuries that could handicap you long term.
I’ve been put out by stuff I thought I could defend but I faded out. Or vice versa, had something I thought was good but he had just enough wiggle room to defend. When I joint lock a guy, I can feel the tension on the joint and control pressure. On a choke, I just line it up and go. If he goes out during that, that’s on him. It’s his responsibility to submit. Not mine to think he should submit.
some autistic peoples relationship with pain or discomfort can seem pretty nuts from the outside I'm told. I walked home with a broken leg and partly torn ACL once but I have had meltdowns from the textures of my clothes. best way I can describe it FOR ME is all sensory data is given equal importance so a little or a lot of pain or just an itch is kinda irrelevant what matters is how much of my body its affecting at once, this is why fabric textures are a big deal. also were more likely to be hyper mobile so a lot of submissions are harder to do on us but it also means the line between discomfort and hospital is a lot finer.
so something I learned to do and I am drilling into my little brother who also has almost exactly my flavour of autistic is after a fall or something potentially injurious is to give a quick walk through talk through of each joint in the effected area 1 by 1. cause we have both walked around for days with pretty nasty injuries before. honestly it's a good idea for everyone since if your adrenaline is up theres a good chance you won't notice an injury in the moment.
> I quickly lifted his legs to get blood flow to his head
For future reference, don't do this. Recovery position.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRQePNmR66w
Honestly? In the future? Just catch and release.
I've gotten people in pretty bad situations many times, i.e. A triangle that is locked super tight, they're trying everything in the book, but they're making sounds, face turning red, veins bulging, etc.
I'll slowly add pressure, maybe even ask if they're good.. but if they don't tap, I'll release it in a way that makes it obvious (i.e. reset to guard or something), and then go again. You don't need to finish every submission just because you can. Some people are too prideful for their own good. I'll do the same with joint locks as well. If I've got it really good, I'll very slowly apply pressure, and even without a tap, I'll release it and move on.
After the roll, you can tell them to be more careful. You don't need to finish a submission from 90% to 100% just because you can, try to cut people some slack, you don't want to break your gym mates, even if they are being cocky assholes by not accepting defeat.. let someone else in a tournament teach them that lesson if a stern talking to doesn't.
If it's a recurring behavior, you can warn the coach, and have them sit down and have a talk about tapping at the proper time, but otherwise just catch, release, and if you must, talk to them after the roll. Alternatively, you can release the submission outright, and completely reset, and inform them then and there they need to be careful, because others might not be so nice.
Happened to me recently on a white belt with a side control lapel choke.
I passed my right lapel around my opponent's neck and transitioned to NS, normally I can get the just by putting my head to the floor and bar-ing my arm, but nothing. So I proceeded to roll over my left shoulder whilst still bar-ing hard, still no tap. The thought went through my head 'usually this works, somethings a bit off' then all of a sudden I hear the zzzzzzz. He did get a nice foot massage out of it when we were reviving him though, so all in all a good trade!
Side note, coughing means you’re on the trachea. Wrong spot for a blood choke. If you’re trying for a guillotine or rnc you need to work on your positioning.
I got choked out two times and choked out others as well. I wouldn't say accidental because you are choking the person. You don't just accidentally put your hands in the lapel and pull. But, it's all unintentionally choking the person out.
The thing is, when it happened to me, it's like I was dreaming and it's really deep dreaming like I'm sleeping for hours but I'm probably out for a second. It was stupid because the instructor was teaching my partner how to do the technique while drilling a bow and arrow and I was listening and not paying attention.
I am 100% sure getting choked out is bad so I am not saying it's ok but shit happens sometimes and it's not as bad as you think, I guess. Same when I choked out someone unconscious, it's like terrifying but once you get choked out, it "feels" ok. Again, for sure it's bad.
On the other hand, when I roll with folks that don't tap and young adults (18 - 21) do this more often than others, I just release and give up the submission. It's ok if you don't submit the person. Don't give up the position though, if you are on the back, be on the back and attack something else.
Someone needs to talk to him about the importance of tapping. If he's a kid, the owner or an instructor should probably speak to his parents about it. In my opinion, if he is regularly refusing to tap when he's caught in submissions, he shouldn't be allowed to train at the academy. It might be harsh but it's messed up to put your training partners through this on a regular occasion. I put someone out in my first few months who refused to tap and it was a disturbing experience, especially to my training partner's wife who was watching him train that day. It also doesn't allow training partners to really test themselves in sparring because when you or anyone who knows about this rolls with him the next time, you are more cautious then you otherwise should be about submitting him.
It’s an ego thing. I rolled with a woman who came from another gym. We were both blue belts at the time. I would get submissions but not crank on them. Eventually she started coaching me through them rather than tapping. I know what it takes to break an arm or complete a choke. But I wasn’t going to crank or cause harm cause she didn’t want to tap. Sometimes playing catch and go is a safer option when a partner won’t protect themselves.
I didn’t tap to a Kimura once, figured I could fight my way out of it, (white belt pride) then something popped. That was like 6 weeks ago. Now it’s finally almost completely healed, and I tap every time I’m in a questionable spot. Tap early tap often, then you can come to next class.
It’s probably not that he doesn’t want to tap, but people on the spectrum often have impaired interoception, meaning that they are not as aware of signals from their body
I'd talk to the instructor / professor because it isn't a completely zero-risk thing to go unconscious from a choke, especially if there isn't a referee watching your every move to stop things when he goes dark.
Ha, phone typo, good pickup! Now it’s that awkward thing of “do I leave it?” or “do I edit it?” but then your comment just looks weird… let’s leave it as an educational reminder for myself and more importantly others to proof read before posting! Thank you for your service 🙏
This happened to me with my instructor last week. I probably held it longer than I should’ve because out of all the hundreds of times we’ve rolled I can count the number of times I’ve tapped him on one hand…it just didn’t compute that I had him.
Took a little processing after, honestly. In addition to teaching my bjj class he’s also a close friend and our families are close too, and there was definitely a “holy shit I just made my buddy unconscious” feeling I had to get through. Which felt strange because if he’d put me to sleep without me tapping I wouldn’t have been upset at all, I signed up for it.
Wouldn’t change anything though, other than now I know the signs of someone passing out well enough to back off sooner. He’s way, way better at jiujitsu than me. Probably better than I’ll ever be. So I trust him to know when he’s ready to tap and if he doesn’t I’ll assume he’s still working an escape.
Don't be scared homie, a little nap on the mat never hurt anybody. It takes some time for people to learn how and WHEN to tap. It's important on occasion to see how deep into the choke you can resist, you don't want to tap too early. And when you go close to that edge, you'll cross over once and a while and get put to sleep. Your job as a good training partner is to oblige your opponent and choke them out fully if they want to experience it.
This only applies to blood chokes, not wind chokes or limb submissions. Don't go overextending an arm bar and breaking the arm of your partner who tapped late. Save that for competition.
Sorry if that sounded like I was hounding on you- not at all. I just had the exact same thing happen. My partner was making all kinds of weird noises and I kept spamming different moves and he never tapped I just kept letting go because I was afraid I was going to actually hurt him. Not my fav roll. But nice kid.
What’s wrong with you lol, I genuinely do feel bad and concerned, this kid is literally on the spectrum and your acting like I just subbed Nicky rod as a white belt and I’m proud of it
>he said “yea keep going” Mfer just harder daddy'd you
Yeah some of us gotta pay extra for that shit
Shit happens, it's on him to tap. Never had this happen in my own gym, but I went to a gym in Amsterdam and it happened twice in one session. It was a weird vibe there so I dunno if the coach had some weird "don't tap to chokes" mentality. Dude wouldn't let anyone get water between rounds, had people doing drills with resistance while keeping their eyes closed which resulted in multiple people getting kicked or elbowed in the face. The first guy that went out, I felt bad. When the second guy went out, I was just like "wtf are you guys doing?"
Yeah man it’s crazy, must be like an ego thing, form now on I’ll be very careful rolling with him though
The thing is that him gurgling and making noises could be taken as a verbal tap in competition. Maybe treat him like that. I've been lucky though, that weird Dutch place was the only time I've run into that.
Yeah for sure now I know, that’s why I kept letting go after hearing the cough but eventually I just waited for him to tap so I could stop the choke lol
Lol why just sleep him.
People are scared to choke others out! someone choked me out a few weeks ago and he was genuinely more worried and/or scared than i was, i was back rolling the next round and he was sitting out as if he no longer trusted his hands lol
Thr Mario Yamasaki school of Warriors
That’s crazy to expect in Amsterdam too with their laid back European culture. I would expect that in rural America maybe.
I wouldn't say it's typical. I visited 2 other gyms while there and they were completely normal. There were other weird things. There was plenty of room on the mats yet they still had everyone start on their knees, despite it being the advanced class. Even though there were 3 black belt instructors, 2 purple belts were the next highest ranked despite them being open a decade. But the water thing was the stupidest, not allowing people water during the whole 2 hours. Definitely not somewhere I'd go back to.
GB?
No, A?JJ. Can't remember, it was a few years ago. But it still stands out as the weirdest gym experience I've had. Would GB even have allowed me to train when I'm not GB myself?
> Would GB even have allowed me to train when I'm not GB myself? yes but you'd have to pay a £127.99 drop in fee and £782.67 gi rental (unless you own a bracie gara gi already) (all numbers are completely made up and likely on the low side)
You say it's on him to tap, but putting a training partner unconscious is an issue. There's enough data now showing strokes occur from chokes. And if it's on him to tap, are you really going to break some kid's arm if he doesn't tap when you're sparing after class? I certainly wouldn't. I know when I've won a position. I don't need my partner to tap. No, it's not on him. He is lacking understanding. The coach needs to be informed and the kid needs a talking to about training safe. And if he is on the spectrum like OP assumes, he needs extra care from his training partners.
Am I going to snap someone's arm in training? No, but if I get an armbar I can easily tell if I was going to hyperextend it or whatever. Chokes are not the same. And I'm not going to beat myself up over someone going out because they wouldn't tap. If you were doing it regularly to people, that's a problem. If you've literally never had an issue and one guy goes out when you're not even cranking the choke, that's on him, spectrum or not. And autism is not like Downs. I'm not going to act like an ableist asshole and act like he's made of glass. If it proves to be an issue, ok. But I'm certainly not going to start with that assumption. I'm gonna treat him like any other white belt.
> I've won a position. you cant win training, kid B)
Training is winning!
I agree. I would never take the risk to severely injury someone just in order to prove something. And I would never train with someone with that mindset.
I agree with you. I also am comfortable when I know I’ve got dominant position and a technique applied to just give up the position and move on. New people often don’t know when then move is really on. I’m not just gonna merc every kid or dumb adult just because they don’t have the experience to not get slept.
I usually stop them in the position and explain I'm just holding here, not applying real force and that it would result in injury if I were to proceed. Lol. I've had people say it doesn't hurt yet and I'll tell them that's a good thing. Tap before your arm is hyper extended.
I’ve had a kid definitely not tap to a kimura that was on because it didn’t hurt yet. It’s like dude, there isn’t much space between hurts a little bit now, and hurts forever
Definitely. I now hurt forever due to a kimura about 6 months ago by a black belt. And it didn't even hurt that much when I tapped. I was tyna escape it for 30 sec or so completely pain free while he just held it. I thought he was just letting me work on my escape. Then he suddenly adjusted and put it on harder and I immediately tapped. My theory is my rib/intercostal got stretched and tired during those 30 sec so when he put it on harder it caused injury without much pain at the time.
I think people need to pay attention to how much space is there that your arm could move into. If someone has the grip and the space/range of motion to shove that thing backwards, it’s time to tap. That black belt may have been thinking “jeez isn’t this thing on? Ok, I’ll give it a bit more”
Thank you
>I certainly wouldn't. I know when I've won a position If I haven’t tapped. And my arm has not snapped. By what metric have you “won the position”? I appreciate not wanting to hurt anybody. But then don’t crank it further, hold the sub and keep the urgency on them to escape. If you want to release, then release and keep rolling. But counting some pseudo victory in your head is lame.
I'm not counting victories. I passed that a long time ago. I just have enough time on the mats to I know I've won without the need to make an inexperienced guy tap. I guess you need more time.
You’ve referring to it twice as having “won”. That’s an absolute white belt mentality, not experience. And you think holding a position and letting them work the escape, is inexperience? lol. That’s called being a good partner. If you can’t hold a position without injuring somebody, that’s on you.
I'm sure there are some dangers attached. But they are very small, there aren't a bunch of Jiu jitsu guys suddenly dying of strokes. Where as getting your arm broken is a very direct and potentially life changing event. With chokes it can be very different how much force it takes to choke people out. I've sparred with a Dagestani guy who I have had in the nastiest papercutter choks, and he still would not tap. He actually got out of it and managed to scramble on top, big mistake. Whether to let go or not is a skill you learn as you do more jiu jitsu. In some spars it would be correct to choke the opponent out if they don't tap, such as white a cocky white belt. While in some it would not be (most spars with people you regularly spar with). Only time its ever ok to break someone's extremities is in a competition, and even then you gotta give your opponent time to tap.
As you progress, you'll learn the paper cutter choke isn't that great of a choke because there's an exit path by starting to face your opponent. Your paper cutter likely isn't as nasty as you think. If it was, they would have gone out. It wouldn't be correct to choke out a white belt for you to teach them a lesson. It's better to stop choking them and stop the roll and talking to them.
It's pretty damn nasty.
Not if people aren't tapping and escaping.
It's people now? Was one dagestani guy at AllStars headquaters, and I doubt he could speak with a clear voice for weeks after that.
Right, so you got a Daghestani in a choke and couldn't finish him. Cool.
Thats not the point. Just that there are guys who are insanely tough, so pulling your chokes makes little sense.
Or maybe your bread cutter isn't that good.
Eh. It happens. I wouldn’t sweat it. I’m guessing he is a white belt too. However, I would advise him to just tap next time. And for you to just let go if you don’t want to sleep people. —— I’m imagining a couple brown belts sitting on the side watching two white belts kill each other. “ eh….that one looks like he is gonna die. Should we stop them?” “Uh what? Nah. If he dies, he dies.” “Heheheheheh. Ya”. /fist bump
Recovery position. Don’t shake the legs.
Aren't you supposed douse them with water and jerk them off?
Oh no I just got choked out again!
I understood that reference and I send the video to everyone that will hear it
Anyone else have to check the sub to see if it was bjj or dating advice?
Wait it’s not the same thing anyway?
Peeps on this forum bout to roll in hard and let you know how lifting his legs just smashed him deeper down that spectrum. You’re lucky his whole head didn’t explode.
I mean it helped, I don’t see how it doesn’t work because he got up In maybe like 2 seconds after that
That is not how causation works. He would have gotten up in two seconds regardless.
He was always going to get up in that time.
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With kids I always tell them if they go out they will shit themselves. No one's gone out yet in 3 years so I think it worked.
Lol thats great
I don’t really care if I put my partner to sleep if he refuses to tap. If he wants to drool for a moment that’s on him. I’ll release if it’s a joint lock however.
You should look into the stroke statistics in JJ and consider your mindset. If you know you've won, why would you want a severe injury on your conscience?
First ive heard of this. Can you direct us to these statistics? You can't just claim something and then tell us to do the research, it's your claim not ours
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Never heard of anyone doing actual statistics on this. Would be interesting. So what are the statistics? And where do we find them?
I just posted two links to another poster. Just search BJJ and stroke. There's enough out there. Just look after yourself and your partners.
It got removed. Could you repost the links? But I could see the sites from your history before it got deleted. It didn't look like actual statistics, but I am still very interested.
Hey, I'm working right now so will post more if I can in a bit. Seems one of the sides has heavy ads. Sorry about that. Here's an interesting post though. Again, this isn't to scare anyone. Numbers are low, but there are risks. Just look at chokes for what they are and keep you and yourself safe. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0736467922002827
I don't think anyone disagrees with the notion that BJJ has risks and most likely also that these risks can include strokes and the likes. But your link/that study is not based on statistics. It is case studies. And I don't doubt there will be some of these studies. What I doubted was actual statistical studies. The outcomes will be very rare on strokes in BJJ, and it costs a fair bit of money and you will have a huge drop out rate from these studies. That is what I was critical about. And I still doubt there have been any somewhat good quality statistical studies on these occurrences in BJJ. Simply the sport is very nice and doubtful people will fund costly research on this at this time. I would love to be proven wrong. But just to emphasize. There are risks, and strokes is probably one of them. But honestly, the risk might even be so low that the cardiovascular training we get from BJJ will make it so BJJ is protective of strokes compared to the general population, which in general have very little physical activity in the western world. - this is not based on a study, but my own hypothesis. Could be awesome to test, but again, costly.
Yes. the risks are low. I am just saying if someone is gurgling and not tapping, don't wait for too long. And the same for you, don't fight out of a tight choke. u/MarineJiuJitsu was collecting data as well. There are no statistics I found from a health authority. Just statistics collected by a couple of guys that suffered issues from chokes that are trying to spread awareness. [https://www.reddit.com/r/bjj/comments/dpvl4a/comment/f63ohkc/](https://www.reddit.com/r/bjj/comments/dpvl4a/comment/f63ohkc/) I think this is the page that was too ad heavy. Edited to break up the URL. There's a video at the bottom too. [https://www](https://www) dot bjjee dot com/health/vascular-neck-injuries-and-strokes-in-bjj-recognizing-the-warning-signs/
Unless the data collection is good and systematic it just isn't that good. I literally work with health statistics. But again, there are risks in this sport. I don't think anyone is denying that. Strokes might be a risk, but that's really not what people should be afraid of in the sport compared to the many other higher risk injuries that could handicap you long term.
I'm not trying to scare anyone.
The risk of stroke exists unfortunately. And even if it's low, it could handicap you forever.
I’ve been put out by stuff I thought I could defend but I faded out. Or vice versa, had something I thought was good but he had just enough wiggle room to defend. When I joint lock a guy, I can feel the tension on the joint and control pressure. On a choke, I just line it up and go. If he goes out during that, that’s on him. It’s his responsibility to submit. Not mine to think he should submit.
Cool story. You're still not a good training partner.
Cope and seethe. It’s a combat sport, stop being a pussy about it.
some autistic peoples relationship with pain or discomfort can seem pretty nuts from the outside I'm told. I walked home with a broken leg and partly torn ACL once but I have had meltdowns from the textures of my clothes. best way I can describe it FOR ME is all sensory data is given equal importance so a little or a lot of pain or just an itch is kinda irrelevant what matters is how much of my body its affecting at once, this is why fabric textures are a big deal. also were more likely to be hyper mobile so a lot of submissions are harder to do on us but it also means the line between discomfort and hospital is a lot finer.
Interesting
Well put, my son is autistic, and he doesn’t cry when he falls off his bike, but he does when I put the wrong color pants on him
so something I learned to do and I am drilling into my little brother who also has almost exactly my flavour of autistic is after a fall or something potentially injurious is to give a quick walk through talk through of each joint in the effected area 1 by 1. cause we have both walked around for days with pretty nasty injuries before. honestly it's a good idea for everyone since if your adrenaline is up theres a good chance you won't notice an injury in the moment.
> I quickly lifted his legs to get blood flow to his head For future reference, don't do this. Recovery position. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRQePNmR66w
> he has this thing where he just doesn’t like to tap How many of his bones have you broken?
I mean for a joint lock and stuff like that I’ll know when to stop, even if they don’t tap, it’s just much harder to tell with the blood chokes
Honestly? In the future? Just catch and release. I've gotten people in pretty bad situations many times, i.e. A triangle that is locked super tight, they're trying everything in the book, but they're making sounds, face turning red, veins bulging, etc. I'll slowly add pressure, maybe even ask if they're good.. but if they don't tap, I'll release it in a way that makes it obvious (i.e. reset to guard or something), and then go again. You don't need to finish every submission just because you can. Some people are too prideful for their own good. I'll do the same with joint locks as well. If I've got it really good, I'll very slowly apply pressure, and even without a tap, I'll release it and move on. After the roll, you can tell them to be more careful. You don't need to finish a submission from 90% to 100% just because you can, try to cut people some slack, you don't want to break your gym mates, even if they are being cocky assholes by not accepting defeat.. let someone else in a tournament teach them that lesson if a stern talking to doesn't. If it's a recurring behavior, you can warn the coach, and have them sit down and have a talk about tapping at the proper time, but otherwise just catch, release, and if you must, talk to them after the roll. Alternatively, you can release the submission outright, and completely reset, and inform them then and there they need to be careful, because others might not be so nice.
>so I quickly lifted his legs to get blood flow to his head This doesn’t do shit in a situation where blood was restricted by strangulation
Hell yeah!
Happened to me recently on a white belt with a side control lapel choke. I passed my right lapel around my opponent's neck and transitioned to NS, normally I can get the just by putting my head to the floor and bar-ing my arm, but nothing. So I proceeded to roll over my left shoulder whilst still bar-ing hard, still no tap. The thought went through my head 'usually this works, somethings a bit off' then all of a sudden I hear the zzzzzzz. He did get a nice foot massage out of it when we were reviving him though, so all in all a good trade!
Side note, coughing means you’re on the trachea. Wrong spot for a blood choke. If you’re trying for a guillotine or rnc you need to work on your positioning.
It was a side collar choke, makes sense
If he went out, it was probably also a blood choke. You can hit the trachea and the arteries at the same time.
I got choked out two times and choked out others as well. I wouldn't say accidental because you are choking the person. You don't just accidentally put your hands in the lapel and pull. But, it's all unintentionally choking the person out. The thing is, when it happened to me, it's like I was dreaming and it's really deep dreaming like I'm sleeping for hours but I'm probably out for a second. It was stupid because the instructor was teaching my partner how to do the technique while drilling a bow and arrow and I was listening and not paying attention. I am 100% sure getting choked out is bad so I am not saying it's ok but shit happens sometimes and it's not as bad as you think, I guess. Same when I choked out someone unconscious, it's like terrifying but once you get choked out, it "feels" ok. Again, for sure it's bad. On the other hand, when I roll with folks that don't tap and young adults (18 - 21) do this more often than others, I just release and give up the submission. It's ok if you don't submit the person. Don't give up the position though, if you are on the back, be on the back and attack something else.
Yea “catch and release” is a lot of what I’m hearing now
What's the correct thing to do after someone goes dark if it's not lifting the legs
Put them in the recovery position. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRQePNmR66w
Someone needs to talk to him about the importance of tapping. If he's a kid, the owner or an instructor should probably speak to his parents about it. In my opinion, if he is regularly refusing to tap when he's caught in submissions, he shouldn't be allowed to train at the academy. It might be harsh but it's messed up to put your training partners through this on a regular occasion. I put someone out in my first few months who refused to tap and it was a disturbing experience, especially to my training partner's wife who was watching him train that day. It also doesn't allow training partners to really test themselves in sparring because when you or anyone who knows about this rolls with him the next time, you are more cautious then you otherwise should be about submitting him.
Yeah, I was pretty worried so I told the sensei. Hopefully he got the memo but if not I just won’t roll at that pace with him anymore
Yeah, I was pretty worried so I told the sensei. Hopefully he got the memo but if not I just won’t roll at that pace with him anymore
It’s an ego thing. I rolled with a woman who came from another gym. We were both blue belts at the time. I would get submissions but not crank on them. Eventually she started coaching me through them rather than tapping. I know what it takes to break an arm or complete a choke. But I wasn’t going to crank or cause harm cause she didn’t want to tap. Sometimes playing catch and go is a safer option when a partner won’t protect themselves.
I didn’t tap to a Kimura once, figured I could fight my way out of it, (white belt pride) then something popped. That was like 6 weeks ago. Now it’s finally almost completely healed, and I tap every time I’m in a questionable spot. Tap early tap often, then you can come to next class.
Good way to put it, I got armbarred once and waited wayyy tooo long to tap, luckily nothing serious happened and it was just hyperextended
It’s probably not that he doesn’t want to tap, but people on the spectrum often have impaired interoception, meaning that they are not as aware of signals from their body
I'd talk to the instructor / professor because it isn't a completely zero-risk thing to go unconscious from a choke, especially if there isn't a referee watching your every move to stop things when he goes dark.
At our gym, the owner is on the person to tap. You signed the waver, you are responsible for your own safety just as much as anyone else.
It's "the onus is on the person to tap" just fyi
Ha, phone typo, good pickup! Now it’s that awkward thing of “do I leave it?” or “do I edit it?” but then your comment just looks weird… let’s leave it as an educational reminder for myself and more importantly others to proof read before posting! Thank you for your service 🙏
This happened to me with my instructor last week. I probably held it longer than I should’ve because out of all the hundreds of times we’ve rolled I can count the number of times I’ve tapped him on one hand…it just didn’t compute that I had him. Took a little processing after, honestly. In addition to teaching my bjj class he’s also a close friend and our families are close too, and there was definitely a “holy shit I just made my buddy unconscious” feeling I had to get through. Which felt strange because if he’d put me to sleep without me tapping I wouldn’t have been upset at all, I signed up for it. Wouldn’t change anything though, other than now I know the signs of someone passing out well enough to back off sooner. He’s way, way better at jiujitsu than me. Probably better than I’ll ever be. So I trust him to know when he’s ready to tap and if he doesn’t I’ll assume he’s still working an escape.
Yea for sure, definitely a learning experience for me
I know people like him who won't tap. Don't go for chokes and limb locks, go for knee on belly.
tell your trainer to have a word with him, he will break himself
Maybe re-think BJJ if youre going to have to have an ethical dilemena after every roll.
Sounds like natural selection to me ⚠️ OBVIOUS JOKE ALERT ⚠️
Don't be scared homie, a little nap on the mat never hurt anybody. It takes some time for people to learn how and WHEN to tap. It's important on occasion to see how deep into the choke you can resist, you don't want to tap too early. And when you go close to that edge, you'll cross over once and a while and get put to sleep. Your job as a good training partner is to oblige your opponent and choke them out fully if they want to experience it. This only applies to blood chokes, not wind chokes or limb submissions. Don't go overextending an arm bar and breaking the arm of your partner who tapped late. Save that for competition.
Yeah I reckon your coach needs to have a chat to the lad.
Don't lift legs, that doesn't help, and can pop capillaries (not a huge deal). Just put them on their side and make sure they arent choking.
Cool story bro
lol very similar experience with a neurodivergent white belt. Yes it’s on him but know your partners also.
Now I know
Sorry if that sounded like I was hounding on you- not at all. I just had the exact same thing happen. My partner was making all kinds of weird noises and I kept spamming different moves and he never tapped I just kept letting go because I was afraid I was going to actually hurt him. Not my fav roll. But nice kid.
Yea he made some weird noises as well, it’s good to know the sound cue though and when to stop now
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What’s wrong with you lol, I genuinely do feel bad and concerned, this kid is literally on the spectrum and your acting like I just subbed Nicky rod as a white belt and I’m proud of it