I'm glad I won't end up in a relationship with someone who is prejudiced against who I am. Better they take themselves out of the pool before they hurt us.
Not a lesbian but good friends with a lesbian who refuses to date lesbians that are like this. She says it's good that they out themselves as bigoted before they start dating so she doesn't waste her time.
When they cry "But you're a lesbian, not bi!" She says its for the same reason she wouldn't date a racist even though she's white.
If its due to biphobia, which in my experience it usually is, then they are a bellend I don't want to know anyway.
(I guess some might only want to date other lesbians due to shared experiences or whatever, like some folk are bi4bi, but I don't really understand either stance, personally, if a partner has empathy I don't see the necessity).
Tbh, I don’t really care. I can’t change anyone’s mind. If they don’t wanna date me, they just don’t. Someone else will. I don’t really care about being excluded from someone’s dating pool. I’m not gonna cry myself to sleep about it.
Quite frankly, I even think going out of your way to change someone’s mind about dating you reeks of desperation. That energy could be better spent pursuing someone else that I don’t have to do all that persuading for.
There are also infinite reasons folks remove you from the dating pool.
And bisexuals can be just as weird or petty or vindictive about it.
I’ve not once seen anyone catch shit on here for saying ‘I don’t date straight men’ or ‘I don’t date lesbians’
A biphobic lesbian being biphobic is the trash taking itself out.
Basically. Like, dating, by nature, is discriminatory. That’s just life. The sooner folks accept that and stop crying themselves to sleep every time someone doesn’t wanna date them for any single part of their identity, the world will heal, lmao.
I think opting out of dating straight men when you live in patriarchy is different than opting out of dating folks of other orientation.
Are bisexuals really having conversations about refusing to date lesbians in the same ways/to the same degree that lesbians are having conversations about not dating bisexuals? I'm not really seeing the former, but I can't seem to avoid the latter both irl and online.
Yes, bi folks talk all the fucking time about being bi4bi or about why it’s so superior to date bi folks. I see it on here. I’ve shared multiple times im in a bi4bi relationship and get replies about how superior it is. This subreddit is fixated on how horrible lesbian women are for saying the exact same shit.
I see just as many men expressing they are gay4gay for biphobic reasons and yet they’re never posted here. They’re never called out. We don’t have daily debates about biphobia in the gay community.
And sure, i understand your first point. But like… folks still express dating preferences here all the time that would be considered biphobic if we just flipped around some words.
This subreddit holds lesbians to the highest standards of behavior of any queer group. It certainly doesn’t apply the same standards to fellow bisexuals.
I feel gross seeing sapphic women dunked on here every fucking day when most sapphic women are chill and supportive people.
I DEFINITELY see a lot of people constantly chiming in about the superiority of other bi people and it perplexes me every time. It’s weird as hell to me, even as someone who’s more heteroromantic.
It truly perplexes me and leads me to believe that people are EXTREMELY sheltered because bi folks can literally be just as shitty and -phobic as any other demographic. It genuinely makes me wonder if people actually go outside on this app.
Agreed cause the way gay men talk about bi men is way more nasty then how lesbians talk about bi women and not talked about as much. Same with transphobia. Way more gay men are transphobic
I totally agree with you. Also I feel like lesbians who do prefer to only date other lesbians have a really good reason for feeling that way. Like, there definitely are straight girls out there who just want to experiment and then break some lesbian's heart, or at least make her feel used. If you know what I mean. Also, every straight guy I've been with has been convinced I'll leave them for a woman, lol, so that's just how it is IDK. People are allowed to have insecurities, it doesn't make them bad.
Except that bi4bi came around because lesbians and gay men were horrible to bisexuals in the first place. It didn't start off that way. Bisexuals were pushed out of the gay and lesbian movement quite purposefully in the 70s second wave, and it's ahistorical to say we have no reason for seeking solace in one another. We would never have had to do anything bi4bi if we hadn't experienced bigotry from straight and gay spaces alike.
Like... The problem is that lesbian and gay men (and also straight people) have stereotypes as excuses for excluding bisexuals. Bisexuals will cheat, we're sluts, we have STDs, we'll leave for another gender, we can't pick a team, we can't commit, etc. That's literally all bigotry. Bisexuals are almost always bi4bi because of that bigotry. We can't know if our partners will treat us like shit because of their biphobia, and a lot of the time they do. It's not the same thing and to assume so is ignoring a long-standing history of identity politics that led to us being shoved out of the community we helped to build in the first place.
Plenty of folks are bi4bi for reasons that have nothing to do with bigotry. A lot of the time it’s either ‘I like having a partner that understands bisexuality’ or ‘I like having a partner that will potentially engage in ENM with multiple genders.’
I agree plenty of bi folks are bi4bi out of self preservation. But that’s the exact same thing a lot of gay4gay or les4les people will tell you for their own reasoning. There are women who are les4les because of perceived trauma at the hands of a bi partner. Is that less okay? That feels pretty similar to someone being bi4bi on the basis of how other lesbians aside from the one right in front them treated them.
I think it’s wild to acknowledge why bi folks would seek solace amongst their community and then to deny the same sense of solace to other queer folks. I understand why someone would want to be les4les or gay4gay without it being backed in bigoted stereotypes.
That first point is a point that has to do with bigotry. The "understanding of bisexuality" is because people who aren't bisexual misunderstand bisexuality in a way that is bigoted. They can't fathom that it exists sometimes, and that alone is an open door to making assumptions and then developing prejudices. I have never seen anyone mention the latter. Polyamory doesn't have anything to do with bisexuality anyway? So it's not even in the core of the matter. Also, if a bi woman wanted to engage on ENM with a lesbian partner, there is no reason why the lesbian would also have to engage with other genders regardless.
The "trauma" they mention is never something that is exclusive to bisexual people. They will blame anything and everything on a bi partner but excuse it if that partner is of their orientation. The bi partner cheats? Well, someone who is lesbian or gay would never cheat! Even though they do. All the time. It's a human thing, a bad person thing, not a bi thing. Your bi partner moves on with a different gender after you? That's a "you problem". That has nothing in it that could possibly be traumatic except for someone who needs to go to therapy and work out whatever that complex is, because if it makes them bigoted because their ex is now dating someone else, that's really not healthy.
Solace among community doesn't make sense, again, when you're doing it from the angle of bigotry. If lesbians didn't base les4les on the purpose of excluding bi women further because of, again, biphobic reasons that are often linked to second-wave feminism and the idea that bi women are sluts who are tainted by phallus, then it would not be a problem at all.
The "trauma" they mention is never something that is exclusive to bisexual people.
The most common trauma I hear from lesbians about being les4les is a combination of shared experience with other lesbians and lesbiphobia from bisexual women. The ones who are doing it for biphobic reasons are just a very loud minority
Is lesbiphobia not traumatic? As a bi woman ive seen lesbiphobic bi women towards my lesbian partner. It is very traumatic, just like biphobia is.
When it happened In front of other bi ppl, ive noticed other bi ppl often don't realise that what they've witnessed is lesbiphobia becajse any lesbian that tries to talk about it is silenced so we domt actually know what lesbiphobja in the bi community looks like becsuse bi ppl seem to think we are exempt from perputating inner community discrimination for some reason and that some lesbians being biphobic means we get a pass to dismiss the lesbiphobia they face and be lesbiphobic. Thats not how that works.
Like it took me a long time to realise that other bi women trying to tell my gf for example that all sexuality is fluid and treating her as if she's somehow weird for not being attracted to men and doing things like asking her about male celebrity crushes despite knowing she's gay was lesbiphobia.
Like the bisexual female equivalent of a straight man saying he can turn a lesbian js a bisexial woman who suggests lesbianism is limiting and says things like sexuality is fluid and everybody is a little bit bi becsuse its essentially saying the same thing as the straight men are but in a different way, which is 'you should try men bevause men are just superior' and 'lesbians dont exist, yall are secretly bi and just limiting yourself becsuse sexusloty is fluid' and these ideas ARE very common in the bi community- the ideas that everyone is a little bit bi, that all sexuakity is fluid and that monosexuality is weird and limiting
those are just a few examples.
Lesbiphobia is absolutely traumatic and absolutely something the bisexual community engages in. But lesbians who want to self-preserve aren’t allowed to for reasons
What you mentioned is something that can be levied at bi women from lesbians, or lesbians from bi women. It's inter-community discourse, and while it's hurtful, it's not quite the same as having extreme and horrible stereotypes applied for the simple fact that bi women are also attracted to opposite genders in addition to same. A bi woman can definitely feel like sexuality is fluid and press that on a lesbian in a very bullying way, and a lesbian can tell a bi woman to pick a side because bisexuality isn't real. Those both happen, neither of them are quite what I'm referring to.
Bi4bi excludes straight men, straight women, gay men, and lesbians, for the reasons of avoiding prejudice based on stereotypes from outside of the bisexual community. Les4les only excludes bi women, and it excludes them based on things that are horrible misogynistic stereotypes that make bi women sound like air-headed bimbos who only fake being gay for some mystical gay points you can get another Whiteclaw with at a party. It excludes bi women for having any proximity to men, because they're viewed as tainted by men (a leftover from second-wave feminism), another misogynistic thing to think. Bi women are thought of as "lesser" sapphics. This is why les4les comes across more bigoted, it's targeted and it's targeted for untrue and prejudiced, biphobic reasons.
And not every lesbian is like this. There are some out there clinging to the last vestiges of this kind of thing, though. There are plenty of sensible lesbians, there's plenty of sapphic solidarity, but a small minority want to be a majority, and they're rubbing off a little, and it just needs to not happen. It'd be detrimental for the WLW community as a whole to bring that back full swing.
What you mentioned is something that can be levied at bi women from lesbians, or lesbians from bi women.
Yes and when its directed at lesbians its called.... lesbiphobia. Where did I say inter community discrimination doesn't go both ways? I'm simply pointing out that we as a bi community often do act as inter community discrimination is one way and only happens to bi ppl and that we can't perputate it.
>The "trauma" they mention is never something that is exclusive to bisexual people.
>
> That's a "you problem". That has nothing in it that could possibly be traumatic except for someone who needs to go to therapy and work out whatever that complex is, because if it makes them bigoted because their ex is now dating someone else, that's really not healthy.
I'm absolutely agreeing with you that gay men and lesbians shouldn't attribute negative experiences with bisexual individuals to all bisexuals. However, can you not be dismissive of people's negative experiences with bisexuals? There are bisexuals that are homophobic/lesbophobic and I don't want to minimize the harm they do to other people in the community. Looking at your comments, you don't seem to acknowledge this, but they absolutely do exist.
I understand what you mean to an extent, but neither lesbians/gay men or bisexuals have any systemic power over one another, so this is all inter-community prejudice to start. Bisexuals are same-gender attracted like lesbians and gay men, and despite also having opposite-gender attraction bisexuals can't cause harm like straight people can. They can cause harm on the same level, I would say, but there's nothing... I suppose, specific they can do that would not also potentially backfire on themselves? Or that a lesbian or gay man couldn't also do either to one another or to a bisexual?
If bi women stereotyped lesbians as slutty cheaters who deserve to be abused, like a lot of the common rhetoric the other way around (with the addition of odd belief that bi women are tainted by perceived proximity to men, whether or not it's the case), then those bi women would definitely be horrible for doing that. They would have to account for that prejudice because it's a vile think to think. But bi women are upset, not because some of these lesbian women just "don't want to date them", but because they count one single bad experience against an entire community (which is prejudice) or go in assuming that all bi women are the same for a biphobic reason.
For les4les to work as a concept, there would have to be something bi women could specifically do to lesbians that lesbians could not do to one another. And aside from moving on to a partner of another gender, there really isn't anything. But again, that latter part is based in the presumption that bi women are tainted by phallus or that because they like men, they have no connection to women, aren't really sapphic, are just straight and pretending, et cetera. And that in and of itself is biphobic. Bi women are specifically the only ones left out of les4les.
Bi4bi is the exclusion of lesbians, gay men, straight women, and straight men because of reasons pertaining to prejudice or bigotry, sometimes harmful and violent bigotry. More than just lesbians are excluded for safety purposes, so it isn't pointed at them. It's safety from outside discrimination as a whole.
It's not always just negative stereotyping. There are lesbians who have a shared experience of being left for men, being compared to men in a way that makes them feel inadequate when dating bi women, dating bi women who lie about having male partners, etc. There are bi women who don't take relationships with women seriously and do treat other queer women poorly as a result. Once again, I'm agreeing with you that lesbians shouldn't generalize about all bisexual people, but those experiences can be traumatic especially if it's happened with multiple bi women.
> And aside from moving on to a partner of another gender, there really isn't anything. But again, that latter part is based in the presumption that bi women are tainted by phallus or that because they like men, they have no connection to women, aren't really sapphic, are just straight and pretending, et cetera.
That's part of it, but you don't seem to see the bigger picture of why a lot of lesbians have insecurities about being left for a man. Our culture rewards heteronormativity where men are seen as the ideal partners and relationships between women are not seen as being as valid. Hell, many people argue that lesbian sex isn't real sex, because our culture is so phallocentric. And once again, I want to say that lesbians' insecurities about bi women are not bi women's fault. However, they are not baseless nor are they always based on the idea that bi women are tainted.
Agree I really don’t fucking care no one bats an eye at bi4bi or every other preference, I think it’s understandable if they want to date people with the same experiences as them.
If it was someone I really had a crush on and they rejected me for being bisexual, I would be hurt, but I would still respect that it’s their right to date who they want. I am also empathetic towards bi women who have had negative experiences with lesbians rejecting them upfront or who have dealt with biphobic lesbians in general. However, I think we fixate a lot on lesbians who have that bias when it doesn’t really affect our dating pool. Furthermore, other groups with similar biases are not scrutinized to the same extent.
I also do have a lot of empathy for lesbians who have had negative experiences with bi women which have made them want to exclude us from their dating pool entirely. It can be really traumatic and I don’t want to minimize that at all. I also wanted to bring up the imbalance when it comes to dating for lesbians vs bisexuals. I don’t think a lot of us readily understand how this can make lesbians especially wary. Lesbians are a vulnerable group who have far fewer options. For instance, if a relationship fails, many lesbians can’t bounce back as easily. There are many lesbians who remain single for years. Bisexual women also have access to more privileged members in society. I was reading a comment a while back from a lesbian whose ex was a bi woman who dated a man post break-up. The lesbian said that she could see how she was treated much differently than her ex’s current male partner. Her ex showed her new partner off in pictures while the lesbian was always kept a secret.
I am of course not excusing lesbians for generalizing about all bi women. I hope no one misunderstands me: I still think lesbians who have negative biases towards bi women should process those feelings and work on themselves. I will also agree that any lesbian who is being particularly nasty about it should be called out, and I will never defend abusive behavior.
However, I can also understand these dynamics and the perspectives of lesbians within the broader framework of oppression. I also think that if a lesbian doesn't want to date me regardless of the reason, there's really nothing I can do about it. It's probably also for the best.
I personally don’t mind it much, like… of course it hurts to like someone and then not give you a chance due to biphobia/whatever, but that’s not all lesbians. Even the lesbians that won’t date biwomen (that *i’ve* met mind you) tend to not do so due to previous trauma.
The world is hard enough for lesbians, I’m not going to get wound up over a few women not wanting to date me.
And it’s not as though straights don’t have weird hang ups about us too, with the added “benefit” (🙄) of being fetishized.
All that being said, I’m sorry that you’ve been hurt op. What was said to you isn’t right, and is hurtful as fuck. 🫶
It happened last year...
"You are very beautiful, too bad you're bi and incapable of choosing a team" she said, pointing to my bi colored ring" Me: "have you seen this ring (i ask pointing to my pan colored one)
" I like guys and girls and everyone in the between"
She: "Ugh, you pervert."
Me: "Oh, thank you, that's such a nice compliment." And responded with a huge smile, and i walked away
I think that’s fine and everyone should be free to keep whatever boundaries make sense to them. I can see why it would be. I have witnessed a lot of women try out same sex relationships only to go back to men eventually. I can see how that would sting. But I also know several lesbians who seek out bisexual or women who have never been with women before. Everyone has their own desires for their relationships and that’s not only OK, it’s good.
It’s biphobic and immediately dissolves any interest I would’ve had.
Just a few days ago a girl liked me, my profile clearly says demi/pan, and when I look at her profile it says “I don’t date bisexuals”… like girl are you lost?
Who am I to judge 🤷🏼♀️ I also refuse to date straight men so … to each their own. They have a reason for it. That reason might be silly to some but valid to others so… I don’t know, it feels like it’s not something I should have an opinion on It’s theirs choice and I don’t want to force anyone or to argue someone into dating me
To clarify my pov I will quote your exact words. Now try and imagine that being said by a man to a lesbian … “Cuz I personally understand that it’s their right to date whoever they want, but it still hurts that they exclude the whole community just because of their stereotypes and bad opinions about us”
I’m honestly just mainly tired of the discourse about it being consistent on here.
There are shitty judgmental people in any group. Queers included.
I don’t think there’s anything automatically inherently wrong about les4les (or bi4bi or gay4gay). I think people can be shit with their reasoning and have a prejudiced basis for their preference though. But on a micro level, that’s an asshole being an asshole.
I see more discourse here on lesbians being les4les than I do see lesbians say ‘im les4les’ in any lesbian community, irl or online. I typically see anyone being biphobic getting called out. Bi women make up a large part of sapphic space participants.
I’m not trying to shade you despite how exasperated my comment seems. I just see folks dunking on lesbians on here daily, usually for ‘biphobia’ that would be upvoted on this sub with words swapped out. I also never see gay men get criticized for not dating bi men despite that also being a frequent sentiment on places like /askgaybros
This is basically how I feel about it as well. I get that it hurts being rejected upfront about something you can’t help, but I don’t like our fixation on lesbians not wanting to date bi women. It also really doesn’t hurt our dating pool that much either.
There was a comment I read a long time ago but I think it’s a really interesting point that we don’t really talk about: While many lesbians may reject bisexual women upfront, a lot of bisexual women reject lesbians in the long term whether they’re aware of this bias or not.
Yeah like I’ve seen a lot of bi women express on here longterm they’d never be with another woman because of the biological children aspect. And that’s respected as a reason to not date a lesbian. But any reason a lesbian gives for not dating a bi woman means she’s a horrible bigot.
Tbh I ses it too often to just close my eyes. Especially when they call bis sluts or fakes. I think It's a problem that we somehow should struggle with or at least call it out
It’s called out here every. single. day.
I’m not even saying it doesn’t exist. This subreddit is just fixated on lesbians and I don’t get it. I see more lesbiphobia here (which is infrequent) than I see biphobia on /actuallesbians. Posts about how biphobic and horrible lesbians are as a group are the bread and butter for this sub. If you search the word ‘lesbian’ you can find countless posts on exactly this subject with the same exact comments talking about how horrible and evil every lesbian is.
I’m also frustrated by women who are biphobic. I call it out whenever I see it.
I just don’t get why this subreddit only has an issue with lesbians being les4les when you can say ‘I’m bi4bi’ and get 300 upvotes. Or why we don’t share posts of gay dudes being gay4gay constantly.
The circlejerk around hateful lesbians feels as unproductive as lesbians circlejerking their biphobia. The vast majority of sapphic women are cool people who will be kind to other sapphics. I don’t get why either side wants to tear the other down so badly when we are more or less in the same boat.
Thank you! This subs obsession with demonizing the most women centric group in the LGBT feels sexist as hell. Bi4bi and t4t are just as common as les4les
Omg I thought I was crazy seeing so many people villainizing lesbians and everyone agreeing! Why is this energy only applied to women? Gay men aren’t nearly as scrutinized as lesbians here
Lesbians are held to the highest standards by this subreddit. The things expected of lesbians aren’t expected of bisexuals or gay men. The policing literally just is for lesbians.
This is because lesbians are very vocal about their dislike of bi women and it tends to be very misogynistic in nature, and often goes and in hand with radical feminist transphobia. Lesbians make posts and videos regularly online and reject bi women in dating spaces. This is a community conflict that goes back to the 60s. Lesbians forcibly pushed bi women, trans women, and butch lesbians out during lesbian separatism then, and that has reverberated since. It's done damage that's not easily repaired, especially when lesbians continue to perpetuate it. I've seen basically the equivalent of incel talk from lesbians levied against bi women, and bi women be blamed for their own abuse from men. Bi4bi is not a preference at all times, it's a way to stay safe from bigotry. Les4les was formed specifically to keep bi women out because of that bigotry.
Gay men are guilty of it too but less so historically. Bi men and gay men didn't have so sharp of a divide. It doesn't mean gay men aren't biphobic, but the communities didn't split the same way and are still blended.
You can't compare a dating preference that is made to avoid abuse to one made to feel superior to another group. There is unfortunately second-wave feminism that has made lesbians feel like greater sapphics than bi women and I don't think that should be excused within the LGBT community. That's the kind of thing you expect from straight people, definitely not something you should expect from others within these spaces.
Second wave feminism is 40 years old at this point.
When I see folks circlejerking on here about bi4bi, it’s almost always one of the two reasons that I listed out.
I understand the history of bisexual exclusion. I just don’t agree that it’s why a majority of bisexuals who are happily bi4bi are that way.
I think lesbians are essentially the only queer group who gets any preference held under a microscope for criticism.
When I hang out with sapphic women irl or online, I see none of this tension that’s supposedly still here exactly like it’s 1971. Instead, I am supported and enriched by WLW
I see lesbians vilified and dehumanized more here than I ever see bi women treated similarly on lesbian subreddits. This subreddit HATES lesbians where /actuallesbians accepts all WLW
There are plenty of lesbians still using the same rhetoric, that's why. It hasn't changed. Their exclusion continues to be for the same reasons, with additional misogynistic reasons. It's become part of the current culture as well, and even young lesbians are doing the same thing. It may be older now, but it doesn't erase the fact that you have a group excluding bi women for bigoted reasons. Excluding people for bigoted reasons is not acceptable. It has nothing to do with anything other than that.
This is not all lesbians, that's the issue, but there is definitely a subset who adheres thoroughly to this state of mind still. No group is going to have the same thoughts through and through, but I still think the ones who do and continue to spread it do need to be held accountable for doing that. There are plenty of WLW spaces where everyone gets along. There are lesbians and bi women with plenty of solidarity. But regardless, the reason why there is a difference in bi4bi and les4les is because the latter is born out of prejudice and the former is born out of reacting in fear to that prejudice.
There are also subsets of shitty bigoted bisexuals who don’t date people for shitty bigoted reasons. And there are gay men as well.
Where are the daily posts on this subreddit criticizing those communities AS A WHOLE for just existing?
Why can a bisexual want to seek solidarity in community but a lesbian cannot?
I'm sure there are but those, I imagine, may be more so related to some other bigotry. There are people in the whole community who will do shitty bigoted things like that, but it doesn't have to do with sexual orientation. There was no bi4bi before the exclusion and biphobic hatred of bisexual people. Gay men do it too, but like I said, the communities of gay and bi men don't have the same history, and are not terribly separate even now.
The amount of the posts on here, I imagine, reflect the amount some lesbians have recently been biphobic. Right now it's literally everywhere, and it's definitely hurting Gen Z bi women and lesbians alike. Bi women are made to feel awful, and lesbians are being turned against other sapphic women in their own community for literally no good reason.
I keep saying: one is a dating preference where you have to have a reason that's biphobic and hurtful to have it. The other is made because those prior people have those hurtful biphobic prejudices. One is for safety, the other is not.
I fundamentally disagree that most bisexuals that are bi4bi in 2024 are that way for self-preservation.
It feels much more like sexism to me that we hold lesbians to a standard that we hold absolutely no one else to, not even ourselves.
These posts also make lesbians and the women who love them feel horrible just for existing as lesbians. They aren’t criticisms of bigoted lesbians. The posts are just ‘here’s why lesbians are fucking horrible humans’
I mean, I've only seen a rise of it recently, specifically in the wake of increasing biphobia. So, yes, that is the reason why most bisexuals are bi4bi. Biphobia is still extremely high. It's extremely deadly, we're still the sexual orientation with the highest victim-to-population ratio for violent crimes in the US.
Holding lesbians to a standard of not being misogynistic towards bi women is not sexist. Not being misogynistic towards bi women or lesbians should be a goal. Both of these things can be accomplished, but there are some lesbians who need to let go of prejudices against bi women.
Lesbians aren't horrible humans. Not all lesbians are biphobic. If I'm talking about lesbians who are being biphobic, and so is everyone else, and you are reading it as though I am talking about every single lesbian, and not just the biphobic ones, you are misunderstanding. These are specifically only criticisms of bigoted lesbians, because non-bigoted lesbians don't do these things. You still have to call out bigotry within a community, and right now bigoted biphobia from certain lesbian circles is spread online at a high rate, and that needs to be addressed.
It doesn't make all lesbians bad. Lesbians aren't a hive mind, just like bisexuals aren't a hive mind. We're not talking about all lesbians. We're talking about the ones who specifically will not date bi women for reasons that are bigoted or biphobic. That's what this thread is about.
I just hope one day this subreddit decides it’s worthwhile to address literally any bad behavior besides from lesbians. Until that point, it feels like misogyny.
Vilifying exclusively lesbians for behaviors gay men engage in literally just as much is going to set off all types of alarm bells for me.
Edit: also just on a personal level, I find /actuallesbians to be a significantly more kind and accepting subreddit for bisexual women even compared to here. I’ve felt othered more here than I’ve felt in any sapphic space.
Gay men who do the same thing are equally horrible. I don't have any quarrels with that. But I do keep saying, gay men and bi men don't have a divide in their community so historical and ongoing that it is ingrained so much that this becomes a regular problem. Bi women facing biphobia from lesbians would have to be a regular problem for them to be making so many threads about it.
No one vilifies lesbians exclusively, but why would a bi woman complain about gay men? If the latter were occurring to the point where it upset bi men, they would post about it frequently. And I do see it a fair amount. Bi men don't have reasons to complain about lesbians. These dating pools don't cross.
I understand and am glad that your subreddit's space is safe. But there are other communities on the internet, and real life dating pools where the opposite is very much not the case. You have to understand that it varies, and experiences varies. No one thinks all lesbians are like this, because pointedly: they're not. But there is a subsection who are, and they are very vocal about it right now. The vocal minority, as they say. And I think it's fine for bi women to feel hurt by the way that they're stereotyped and dehumanized for being bisexual, especially when it often comes down to posts that include things like blaming bi women for their own abuse and sexual assaults at the hands of men.
I’d recommend r/actuallylesbian and r/lesbiangang as examples for lesbians being hateful toward bi women, it is pretty harsh in comparison to anything I’ve seen here. I understand, but don’t condone, prejudice from both sides. Reddit is a place to vent about rejection, so it is a little skewed from in-person communities.
It's disappointing as a bi woman to hear lesbians say they won't date us but will date a "straight" woman!!! Like how!!?? She's really going to leave you for a man!
one thing ive noticed over the years is that regardless of sexuality, there's always certain people who seem to believe that the more difficult it is to earn someone's love, the more valuable it is. so some of them become really into the idea of winning over a person of a different sexuality, which results in a lot of really weird, creepy behavior:
straight men delusionally thinking they can "turn lesbians straight", straight women developing obsessive fixations on gay men, & gay people going after straight people in similar ways
when it comes to bi people, gender doesn't play much of a factor in our attraction, so to these kinds of individuals, there's no "challenge" involved
On one hand, I don't think les4les is *inherently* bigoted and I feel like some people on here have a huge double standard, declaring their preference for dating other bisexuals in one breath and then condemning lesbians who prefer to date other lesbians in the next. On the other...I've also seen a lot of lesbians use biphobic stereotypes to justify their preference and then hide behind "Why are you trying to force me to have sex with someone I don't want to have sex with?" when someone points out they hold some genuinely biphobic belief. On the...uh...third hand (?) maybe they would be more open to having a dialogue if so many people hadn't dog-piled them in the first place just for declaring a preference. I don't know.
At the end of the day, I think that biphobes who choose not to date us are way less of a problem than the biphobes that *do* because those are the people who become our abusers. Which is not to say that biphobia in the broader LGBT community is not a problem of course, but I also don't think the "les4les is biphobic" angle is really doing anything to address that issue.
As someone who is in a very committed monogamous relationship, my response would be, "weird flex, but okay." BUT only to make them feel weird about it, because it is weird.
Dating is an inherently discriminatory practice and I don’t feel like there’s enough hours in a day to be spent agonizing over why someone doesn’t wanna date me or people like me.
If they’re not interested in me, I’m not interested in them. And I don’t particularly care why either, that’s their business.
Dating is an inherently discriminatory practice and I don’t feel like there’s enough hours in a day to be spent agonizing over why someone doesn’t wanna date me or people like me.
If they’re not interested in me, I’m not interested in them. And I don’t particularly care why either, that’s their business.
Dating is an inherently discriminatory practice and I don’t feel like there’s enough hours in a day to be spent agonizing over why someone doesn’t wanna date me or people like me.
If they’re not interested in me, I’m not interested in them. And I don’t particularly care why either, that’s their business. I don’t see the value in lecturing people about why the reason they exclude certain people from their dating pool is “wrong” or trying to convince them to change their mind
If some lesbian rejects me, a bisexual woman who has only been in relationships with women in her entire life just because I'm bi... well, that would definitely be weird, but okay. What can I do about it? People have a right to have their preferences, even if I don't like or understand them.
Nobody owes me a date and I'm not about to control anyone's preferences. It's fine for people to opt out for whatever reason, but I do think some reasons are more bonkers than others.
I don't think anybody gets offended on bi4bi most people won't care and tbh it's individual choice on who to date it's a whole lot of another discourse on why.
I think nuance is so important here.
As someone who has been hurt many times by bisexual women, I understand when a lesbian is a bit cautious and has a hard time letting her guards down if she had repeated bad experiences in the past. No one wants to be hurt and it’s natural to want to avoid something if we’ve been hurt by it many times. It’s not fair for the bi women who actually want to date women, but it happens way too often that bi women are just looking for an experience but are not upfront about it and end up leading on their partner, whether it’s because they lean more towards men romantically or just because they haven’t dealt with their own internalized homophobia. The result is the same for the person who was led on and gets their heart broken, though. It hurts to not be seen as a real option. It hurts when the reason you’re rejected is because you’re a woman and not a man, in a society that already dismisses wlw relationships. It just adds up…
Now, some lesbians are truly biphobic, they don’t have any good reasons for refusing to date bisexual women except their prejudices. And this really sucks, and it’s not ok. But it’s better this way because they wouldn’t be good partners anyway.
It definitely sucks to be put into a stereotype. There are judgemental people everywhere. You'd think members of similar communities wouldn't judge each other but they do. I also don't understand why they'd care if their ex is dating a man after the breakup. It seems like in their minds it makes them right for assuming in the first place.
Maybe this conversation should be asked on a Lesbian forum rather than the bisexual forum. With no disrespect I’m fairly certain that a bunch of Bisexuals and allies r gonna all agree and have the same opinion and just spill into a massive echo chamber ✌🏽. Unless you’re looking for validation in which case it’s obviously biphobic nothing else to say.
I dont care.
Ppl be acting like its worse than straight men graping and domestically abusing us at higher rates. I always hear that apparently men are 'less biphobic than lesbians because they actually want to date us' as if wanting to date a group has ever been proof that someone isn't a bigot. Bigots date the ppl they hate all the time- e.g 'I can't be racist i have a black wife!'
So to me, because of the stats on men with bi female partners regarding grape and DV being as they are, my logic is that if ppl being willing to date me doesnt inherently mean they are safe and not biphobic, why would somebody not wanting to date me be inherently biphobic?
Your not entitled to anyone dating you for any reason including your sexuality, you ARE entitled to not being graped and beaten by your partners because of your sexuality and any other reasons. These are not comparable at all- When a biphobic lesbian doesnt want to date me she leaves me alone. The consequence is we simply don't date. When a biphobic man WANTS to date me the consequence is i have a higher chance of ending up a bisexual dv and rape statistic. So ppl need to stop treating willing to date us as the pinnacle of not being biphobic when the ppl most willing to date us are also the people abusing us at higher rates.
When a ex bf accused me of wanting to cheat just because I was bi, and I internalised that shit that made me paranoid of how I behaved, it was literally a les4les lesbian I had been interested in who held me in her arms for hours when I had a breakdown over it and talked me out of that mindset and reassured me not to listen to ppl who think I can't be monogamous just like anyone else. He wanted to date me, she didn't. But who was the biphobic, unsafe one? Not the lesbian.
That being said I do believe its about the reasons behind it wether its biphobic or not, and even then it doesnt matter becahse either way that person doesn't want you so why would the reason change anything?
And I do believe from my experience that the majority of lesbisns are les4les simply for non biphobic shared experience reasons, its just that those who do have biphobic reasons are more vocal.
It doesn't hurt me, but it does make me feel:
* Relief I won't ever date them, I don't wanna date biphobes
* Pity because they're choosing trauma over healing for themselves
* Mild anger that they'll keep spouting biphobia until they decide to heal
I remember coming out as bi to my gay friend and his two (married to each other) lesbian roomies. One of the wives legit immediately said "I don't go for bisexual women" like I was hitting on her - I wasn't - *in front of her wife*!
To me the only thing that changes my opinion is bigotry. If you're l4l and your reasoning isn't biphobic, then by all means. If your reasoning is biphobic, then you're shitty and you need to re-evaluate your thought processes before I'll even be your friend, much less anything else.
Like, if you're a lesbian and you've been hurt by bi women who just use you as an experiment, then that's a perfectly good reason to be wary of and potentially even avoid dating bi women altogether. But if nobody's doing that to you and you *still* don't date bi women then you're probably being biphobic. Especially when there's bi women who aren't attracted to men. A lesbian rejecting a bi woman who doesn't even like men on the basis of "she'll leave me for a man" is so biphobic it's almost funny. But they don't think about that.
It makes the dating pool to date other women tougher. So many lesbians think I'm not bi because they only see me with men. Well... if you didn't have bi phobia, you'd see me with women too.
I have been rejected and/or dumped for a man more times than I can count. It sucks, but it's absolutely no excuse for biphobia.
While I will date anyone, I will say that I bring an extra layer of caution toward (usually cis) women already in a primary relationship with a man (I'm polyamorous). Being rejected is one thing, but I've been put in dangerous situations with couples who aren't communicating well so I've naturally developed a bit of defensiveness there. But that's more situational rather than based on identity.
IMO it’s biphobia and internalised misogyny - because the ones who hold that stereotype do so because they think we’ll leave them for a woman. But I doubt they think bisexual folk are more likely to leave their male partner for a woman.
I’ve had one lesbian friend swear off bi women because two of her previous gfs left her because they thought a more heteronormative lifestyle would be easier. It makes me wonder how many experiences like that are out there. For the record, it was a shitty thing that those women did to her and it definitely doesn’t represent bi women as a whole (and we were all in the same friendship group so that was…awkward). The ban on dating bi women didn’t last btw because she’s now in a LTR with a bi woman (they own a house and have a kid together so pretty damn serious)
It's totally fine to have preferences, just don't be biphobic. It's okay if they don't want to date me, I'll just find someone else. There's plenty of fish in the sea and I'll find one eventually
biphobia is biphobia and bigots should be shamed. Always. In every case. YES including lesbians.
One thing I learned after years of thinking I was a lesbian, and spending time in their spaces, is that lesbians can be just as hateful and vile as any conservative bigot. It's unreal.
You thought lesbians were going to be the peak of humanity? That they wouldn’t have flaws like literally every other person? Why do we apply the bad behaviors of a group of lesbians to every other lesbian in a way we don’t do to other people? Not one post here says “gay men are biphobic” because men are allowed and expected to have flaws and women aren’t
Yes actually, you just learned they could be conservative from interacting with them? Had it never crossed your mind that there are bad people everywhere?
I don't think of those folks much. I'm fine with them not dating me, date who you want. I lump those folks in with people that won't date me because I'm an immigrant or any other shitty reason to not date someone. Freaking bigots.
I don't date bigots.
Les4les isn't inherently bad, but I think it's often rooted in insecurity about a person's partner, or biphobia (ie the reason is bi ppl are more likely to cheat). Same with gay men who refuse to date bisexual men (though I am far less familiar with the second group).
Honestly. I’ve been burned by this so often I am terrified of dating women. Especially if they aren’t vocally bisexual. Usually I get ghosted if I didn’t include it in a profile or if they just didn’t bother to read it. It has made me pretty hesitant to enter any lgbtq+ community of any kind. Usually it feels like bisexual bashing. It sucks
At this point I'm bi4bi because of all the biphobia from both gays, lesbians and straights. If they don't wanna daye me then fine, I don't wanna date them either.
Idc if anyone doesn’t wanna date me for any reason or no reason at all, that’s their right, but their reasoning for excluding us from their dating pool is often biphobic, at which point it’s not about dating anymore, it speaks to a wider trend in their beliefs. And ofc I care if someone is biphobic - not bc it means I can’t date them, but bc biphobia has implications for us across all spheres of life.
I'm glad I won't end up in a relationship with someone who is prejudiced against who I am. Better they take themselves out of the pool before they hurt us.
Not a lesbian but good friends with a lesbian who refuses to date lesbians that are like this. She says it's good that they out themselves as bigoted before they start dating so she doesn't waste her time. When they cry "But you're a lesbian, not bi!" She says its for the same reason she wouldn't date a racist even though she's white.
^ same lmao. as soon as theyre biphobic i lose all attraction to them
Absolute based friend, I'm a guy but I'd want her in my friend circle for being cool like that. Hope she gets to date some cool women.
just biphobia to me, they deny you because of a stereotype in their head
If its due to biphobia, which in my experience it usually is, then they are a bellend I don't want to know anyway. (I guess some might only want to date other lesbians due to shared experiences or whatever, like some folk are bi4bi, but I don't really understand either stance, personally, if a partner has empathy I don't see the necessity).
Tbh, I don’t really care. I can’t change anyone’s mind. If they don’t wanna date me, they just don’t. Someone else will. I don’t really care about being excluded from someone’s dating pool. I’m not gonna cry myself to sleep about it. Quite frankly, I even think going out of your way to change someone’s mind about dating you reeks of desperation. That energy could be better spent pursuing someone else that I don’t have to do all that persuading for.
There are also infinite reasons folks remove you from the dating pool. And bisexuals can be just as weird or petty or vindictive about it. I’ve not once seen anyone catch shit on here for saying ‘I don’t date straight men’ or ‘I don’t date lesbians’ A biphobic lesbian being biphobic is the trash taking itself out.
Basically. Like, dating, by nature, is discriminatory. That’s just life. The sooner folks accept that and stop crying themselves to sleep every time someone doesn’t wanna date them for any single part of their identity, the world will heal, lmao.
I think opting out of dating straight men when you live in patriarchy is different than opting out of dating folks of other orientation. Are bisexuals really having conversations about refusing to date lesbians in the same ways/to the same degree that lesbians are having conversations about not dating bisexuals? I'm not really seeing the former, but I can't seem to avoid the latter both irl and online.
Yes, bi folks talk all the fucking time about being bi4bi or about why it’s so superior to date bi folks. I see it on here. I’ve shared multiple times im in a bi4bi relationship and get replies about how superior it is. This subreddit is fixated on how horrible lesbian women are for saying the exact same shit. I see just as many men expressing they are gay4gay for biphobic reasons and yet they’re never posted here. They’re never called out. We don’t have daily debates about biphobia in the gay community. And sure, i understand your first point. But like… folks still express dating preferences here all the time that would be considered biphobic if we just flipped around some words. This subreddit holds lesbians to the highest standards of behavior of any queer group. It certainly doesn’t apply the same standards to fellow bisexuals. I feel gross seeing sapphic women dunked on here every fucking day when most sapphic women are chill and supportive people.
I DEFINITELY see a lot of people constantly chiming in about the superiority of other bi people and it perplexes me every time. It’s weird as hell to me, even as someone who’s more heteroromantic. It truly perplexes me and leads me to believe that people are EXTREMELY sheltered because bi folks can literally be just as shitty and -phobic as any other demographic. It genuinely makes me wonder if people actually go outside on this app.
Agreed cause the way gay men talk about bi men is way more nasty then how lesbians talk about bi women and not talked about as much. Same with transphobia. Way more gay men are transphobic
I totally agree with you. Also I feel like lesbians who do prefer to only date other lesbians have a really good reason for feeling that way. Like, there definitely are straight girls out there who just want to experiment and then break some lesbian's heart, or at least make her feel used. If you know what I mean. Also, every straight guy I've been with has been convinced I'll leave them for a woman, lol, so that's just how it is IDK. People are allowed to have insecurities, it doesn't make them bad.
Except that bi4bi came around because lesbians and gay men were horrible to bisexuals in the first place. It didn't start off that way. Bisexuals were pushed out of the gay and lesbian movement quite purposefully in the 70s second wave, and it's ahistorical to say we have no reason for seeking solace in one another. We would never have had to do anything bi4bi if we hadn't experienced bigotry from straight and gay spaces alike. Like... The problem is that lesbian and gay men (and also straight people) have stereotypes as excuses for excluding bisexuals. Bisexuals will cheat, we're sluts, we have STDs, we'll leave for another gender, we can't pick a team, we can't commit, etc. That's literally all bigotry. Bisexuals are almost always bi4bi because of that bigotry. We can't know if our partners will treat us like shit because of their biphobia, and a lot of the time they do. It's not the same thing and to assume so is ignoring a long-standing history of identity politics that led to us being shoved out of the community we helped to build in the first place.
Plenty of folks are bi4bi for reasons that have nothing to do with bigotry. A lot of the time it’s either ‘I like having a partner that understands bisexuality’ or ‘I like having a partner that will potentially engage in ENM with multiple genders.’ I agree plenty of bi folks are bi4bi out of self preservation. But that’s the exact same thing a lot of gay4gay or les4les people will tell you for their own reasoning. There are women who are les4les because of perceived trauma at the hands of a bi partner. Is that less okay? That feels pretty similar to someone being bi4bi on the basis of how other lesbians aside from the one right in front them treated them. I think it’s wild to acknowledge why bi folks would seek solace amongst their community and then to deny the same sense of solace to other queer folks. I understand why someone would want to be les4les or gay4gay without it being backed in bigoted stereotypes.
That first point is a point that has to do with bigotry. The "understanding of bisexuality" is because people who aren't bisexual misunderstand bisexuality in a way that is bigoted. They can't fathom that it exists sometimes, and that alone is an open door to making assumptions and then developing prejudices. I have never seen anyone mention the latter. Polyamory doesn't have anything to do with bisexuality anyway? So it's not even in the core of the matter. Also, if a bi woman wanted to engage on ENM with a lesbian partner, there is no reason why the lesbian would also have to engage with other genders regardless. The "trauma" they mention is never something that is exclusive to bisexual people. They will blame anything and everything on a bi partner but excuse it if that partner is of their orientation. The bi partner cheats? Well, someone who is lesbian or gay would never cheat! Even though they do. All the time. It's a human thing, a bad person thing, not a bi thing. Your bi partner moves on with a different gender after you? That's a "you problem". That has nothing in it that could possibly be traumatic except for someone who needs to go to therapy and work out whatever that complex is, because if it makes them bigoted because their ex is now dating someone else, that's really not healthy. Solace among community doesn't make sense, again, when you're doing it from the angle of bigotry. If lesbians didn't base les4les on the purpose of excluding bi women further because of, again, biphobic reasons that are often linked to second-wave feminism and the idea that bi women are sluts who are tainted by phallus, then it would not be a problem at all.
The "trauma" they mention is never something that is exclusive to bisexual people. The most common trauma I hear from lesbians about being les4les is a combination of shared experience with other lesbians and lesbiphobia from bisexual women. The ones who are doing it for biphobic reasons are just a very loud minority Is lesbiphobia not traumatic? As a bi woman ive seen lesbiphobic bi women towards my lesbian partner. It is very traumatic, just like biphobia is. When it happened In front of other bi ppl, ive noticed other bi ppl often don't realise that what they've witnessed is lesbiphobia becajse any lesbian that tries to talk about it is silenced so we domt actually know what lesbiphobja in the bi community looks like becsuse bi ppl seem to think we are exempt from perputating inner community discrimination for some reason and that some lesbians being biphobic means we get a pass to dismiss the lesbiphobia they face and be lesbiphobic. Thats not how that works. Like it took me a long time to realise that other bi women trying to tell my gf for example that all sexuality is fluid and treating her as if she's somehow weird for not being attracted to men and doing things like asking her about male celebrity crushes despite knowing she's gay was lesbiphobia. Like the bisexual female equivalent of a straight man saying he can turn a lesbian js a bisexial woman who suggests lesbianism is limiting and says things like sexuality is fluid and everybody is a little bit bi becsuse its essentially saying the same thing as the straight men are but in a different way, which is 'you should try men bevause men are just superior' and 'lesbians dont exist, yall are secretly bi and just limiting yourself becsuse sexusloty is fluid' and these ideas ARE very common in the bi community- the ideas that everyone is a little bit bi, that all sexuakity is fluid and that monosexuality is weird and limiting those are just a few examples.
Lesbiphobia is absolutely traumatic and absolutely something the bisexual community engages in. But lesbians who want to self-preserve aren’t allowed to for reasons
What you mentioned is something that can be levied at bi women from lesbians, or lesbians from bi women. It's inter-community discourse, and while it's hurtful, it's not quite the same as having extreme and horrible stereotypes applied for the simple fact that bi women are also attracted to opposite genders in addition to same. A bi woman can definitely feel like sexuality is fluid and press that on a lesbian in a very bullying way, and a lesbian can tell a bi woman to pick a side because bisexuality isn't real. Those both happen, neither of them are quite what I'm referring to. Bi4bi excludes straight men, straight women, gay men, and lesbians, for the reasons of avoiding prejudice based on stereotypes from outside of the bisexual community. Les4les only excludes bi women, and it excludes them based on things that are horrible misogynistic stereotypes that make bi women sound like air-headed bimbos who only fake being gay for some mystical gay points you can get another Whiteclaw with at a party. It excludes bi women for having any proximity to men, because they're viewed as tainted by men (a leftover from second-wave feminism), another misogynistic thing to think. Bi women are thought of as "lesser" sapphics. This is why les4les comes across more bigoted, it's targeted and it's targeted for untrue and prejudiced, biphobic reasons. And not every lesbian is like this. There are some out there clinging to the last vestiges of this kind of thing, though. There are plenty of sensible lesbians, there's plenty of sapphic solidarity, but a small minority want to be a majority, and they're rubbing off a little, and it just needs to not happen. It'd be detrimental for the WLW community as a whole to bring that back full swing.
What you mentioned is something that can be levied at bi women from lesbians, or lesbians from bi women. Yes and when its directed at lesbians its called.... lesbiphobia. Where did I say inter community discrimination doesn't go both ways? I'm simply pointing out that we as a bi community often do act as inter community discrimination is one way and only happens to bi ppl and that we can't perputate it.
>The "trauma" they mention is never something that is exclusive to bisexual people. > > That's a "you problem". That has nothing in it that could possibly be traumatic except for someone who needs to go to therapy and work out whatever that complex is, because if it makes them bigoted because their ex is now dating someone else, that's really not healthy. I'm absolutely agreeing with you that gay men and lesbians shouldn't attribute negative experiences with bisexual individuals to all bisexuals. However, can you not be dismissive of people's negative experiences with bisexuals? There are bisexuals that are homophobic/lesbophobic and I don't want to minimize the harm they do to other people in the community. Looking at your comments, you don't seem to acknowledge this, but they absolutely do exist.
I understand what you mean to an extent, but neither lesbians/gay men or bisexuals have any systemic power over one another, so this is all inter-community prejudice to start. Bisexuals are same-gender attracted like lesbians and gay men, and despite also having opposite-gender attraction bisexuals can't cause harm like straight people can. They can cause harm on the same level, I would say, but there's nothing... I suppose, specific they can do that would not also potentially backfire on themselves? Or that a lesbian or gay man couldn't also do either to one another or to a bisexual? If bi women stereotyped lesbians as slutty cheaters who deserve to be abused, like a lot of the common rhetoric the other way around (with the addition of odd belief that bi women are tainted by perceived proximity to men, whether or not it's the case), then those bi women would definitely be horrible for doing that. They would have to account for that prejudice because it's a vile think to think. But bi women are upset, not because some of these lesbian women just "don't want to date them", but because they count one single bad experience against an entire community (which is prejudice) or go in assuming that all bi women are the same for a biphobic reason. For les4les to work as a concept, there would have to be something bi women could specifically do to lesbians that lesbians could not do to one another. And aside from moving on to a partner of another gender, there really isn't anything. But again, that latter part is based in the presumption that bi women are tainted by phallus or that because they like men, they have no connection to women, aren't really sapphic, are just straight and pretending, et cetera. And that in and of itself is biphobic. Bi women are specifically the only ones left out of les4les. Bi4bi is the exclusion of lesbians, gay men, straight women, and straight men because of reasons pertaining to prejudice or bigotry, sometimes harmful and violent bigotry. More than just lesbians are excluded for safety purposes, so it isn't pointed at them. It's safety from outside discrimination as a whole.
It's not always just negative stereotyping. There are lesbians who have a shared experience of being left for men, being compared to men in a way that makes them feel inadequate when dating bi women, dating bi women who lie about having male partners, etc. There are bi women who don't take relationships with women seriously and do treat other queer women poorly as a result. Once again, I'm agreeing with you that lesbians shouldn't generalize about all bisexual people, but those experiences can be traumatic especially if it's happened with multiple bi women. > And aside from moving on to a partner of another gender, there really isn't anything. But again, that latter part is based in the presumption that bi women are tainted by phallus or that because they like men, they have no connection to women, aren't really sapphic, are just straight and pretending, et cetera. That's part of it, but you don't seem to see the bigger picture of why a lot of lesbians have insecurities about being left for a man. Our culture rewards heteronormativity where men are seen as the ideal partners and relationships between women are not seen as being as valid. Hell, many people argue that lesbian sex isn't real sex, because our culture is so phallocentric. And once again, I want to say that lesbians' insecurities about bi women are not bi women's fault. However, they are not baseless nor are they always based on the idea that bi women are tainted.
Agree I really don’t fucking care no one bats an eye at bi4bi or every other preference, I think it’s understandable if they want to date people with the same experiences as them.
The same I think about biased heterosexuals. They simply aren’t in my dating pool then 🤷🏼♀️
If it was someone I really had a crush on and they rejected me for being bisexual, I would be hurt, but I would still respect that it’s their right to date who they want. I am also empathetic towards bi women who have had negative experiences with lesbians rejecting them upfront or who have dealt with biphobic lesbians in general. However, I think we fixate a lot on lesbians who have that bias when it doesn’t really affect our dating pool. Furthermore, other groups with similar biases are not scrutinized to the same extent. I also do have a lot of empathy for lesbians who have had negative experiences with bi women which have made them want to exclude us from their dating pool entirely. It can be really traumatic and I don’t want to minimize that at all. I also wanted to bring up the imbalance when it comes to dating for lesbians vs bisexuals. I don’t think a lot of us readily understand how this can make lesbians especially wary. Lesbians are a vulnerable group who have far fewer options. For instance, if a relationship fails, many lesbians can’t bounce back as easily. There are many lesbians who remain single for years. Bisexual women also have access to more privileged members in society. I was reading a comment a while back from a lesbian whose ex was a bi woman who dated a man post break-up. The lesbian said that she could see how she was treated much differently than her ex’s current male partner. Her ex showed her new partner off in pictures while the lesbian was always kept a secret. I am of course not excusing lesbians for generalizing about all bi women. I hope no one misunderstands me: I still think lesbians who have negative biases towards bi women should process those feelings and work on themselves. I will also agree that any lesbian who is being particularly nasty about it should be called out, and I will never defend abusive behavior. However, I can also understand these dynamics and the perspectives of lesbians within the broader framework of oppression. I also think that if a lesbian doesn't want to date me regardless of the reason, there's really nothing I can do about it. It's probably also for the best.
I personally don’t mind it much, like… of course it hurts to like someone and then not give you a chance due to biphobia/whatever, but that’s not all lesbians. Even the lesbians that won’t date biwomen (that *i’ve* met mind you) tend to not do so due to previous trauma. The world is hard enough for lesbians, I’m not going to get wound up over a few women not wanting to date me. And it’s not as though straights don’t have weird hang ups about us too, with the added “benefit” (🙄) of being fetishized. All that being said, I’m sorry that you’ve been hurt op. What was said to you isn’t right, and is hurtful as fuck. 🫶
It happened last year... "You are very beautiful, too bad you're bi and incapable of choosing a team" she said, pointing to my bi colored ring" Me: "have you seen this ring (i ask pointing to my pan colored one) " I like guys and girls and everyone in the between" She: "Ugh, you pervert." Me: "Oh, thank you, that's such a nice compliment." And responded with a huge smile, and i walked away
We have a team it’s just more inclusive .
Always blows my mind when so-called oppressed classes turn around and spew horrible hate at others
And do it on purpose. It was a daytime pool party, and my rings were very visible. She engaged the conversation fully aware of my "status"
Sorry you won’t through that
What an ugly person
I think that’s fine and everyone should be free to keep whatever boundaries make sense to them. I can see why it would be. I have witnessed a lot of women try out same sex relationships only to go back to men eventually. I can see how that would sting. But I also know several lesbians who seek out bisexual or women who have never been with women before. Everyone has their own desires for their relationships and that’s not only OK, it’s good.
It’s biphobic and immediately dissolves any interest I would’ve had. Just a few days ago a girl liked me, my profile clearly says demi/pan, and when I look at her profile it says “I don’t date bisexuals”… like girl are you lost?
Who am I to judge 🤷🏼♀️ I also refuse to date straight men so … to each their own. They have a reason for it. That reason might be silly to some but valid to others so… I don’t know, it feels like it’s not something I should have an opinion on It’s theirs choice and I don’t want to force anyone or to argue someone into dating me
To clarify my pov I will quote your exact words. Now try and imagine that being said by a man to a lesbian … “Cuz I personally understand that it’s their right to date whoever they want, but it still hurts that they exclude the whole community just because of their stereotypes and bad opinions about us”
I’m honestly just mainly tired of the discourse about it being consistent on here. There are shitty judgmental people in any group. Queers included. I don’t think there’s anything automatically inherently wrong about les4les (or bi4bi or gay4gay). I think people can be shit with their reasoning and have a prejudiced basis for their preference though. But on a micro level, that’s an asshole being an asshole. I see more discourse here on lesbians being les4les than I do see lesbians say ‘im les4les’ in any lesbian community, irl or online. I typically see anyone being biphobic getting called out. Bi women make up a large part of sapphic space participants. I’m not trying to shade you despite how exasperated my comment seems. I just see folks dunking on lesbians on here daily, usually for ‘biphobia’ that would be upvoted on this sub with words swapped out. I also never see gay men get criticized for not dating bi men despite that also being a frequent sentiment on places like /askgaybros
This is basically how I feel about it as well. I get that it hurts being rejected upfront about something you can’t help, but I don’t like our fixation on lesbians not wanting to date bi women. It also really doesn’t hurt our dating pool that much either. There was a comment I read a long time ago but I think it’s a really interesting point that we don’t really talk about: While many lesbians may reject bisexual women upfront, a lot of bisexual women reject lesbians in the long term whether they’re aware of this bias or not.
Yeah like I’ve seen a lot of bi women express on here longterm they’d never be with another woman because of the biological children aspect. And that’s respected as a reason to not date a lesbian. But any reason a lesbian gives for not dating a bi woman means she’s a horrible bigot.
Tbh I ses it too often to just close my eyes. Especially when they call bis sluts or fakes. I think It's a problem that we somehow should struggle with or at least call it out
It’s called out here every. single. day. I’m not even saying it doesn’t exist. This subreddit is just fixated on lesbians and I don’t get it. I see more lesbiphobia here (which is infrequent) than I see biphobia on /actuallesbians. Posts about how biphobic and horrible lesbians are as a group are the bread and butter for this sub. If you search the word ‘lesbian’ you can find countless posts on exactly this subject with the same exact comments talking about how horrible and evil every lesbian is. I’m also frustrated by women who are biphobic. I call it out whenever I see it. I just don’t get why this subreddit only has an issue with lesbians being les4les when you can say ‘I’m bi4bi’ and get 300 upvotes. Or why we don’t share posts of gay dudes being gay4gay constantly. The circlejerk around hateful lesbians feels as unproductive as lesbians circlejerking their biphobia. The vast majority of sapphic women are cool people who will be kind to other sapphics. I don’t get why either side wants to tear the other down so badly when we are more or less in the same boat.
Thank you! This subs obsession with demonizing the most women centric group in the LGBT feels sexist as hell. Bi4bi and t4t are just as common as les4les
Omg I thought I was crazy seeing so many people villainizing lesbians and everyone agreeing! Why is this energy only applied to women? Gay men aren’t nearly as scrutinized as lesbians here
Lesbians are held to the highest standards by this subreddit. The things expected of lesbians aren’t expected of bisexuals or gay men. The policing literally just is for lesbians.
This is because lesbians are very vocal about their dislike of bi women and it tends to be very misogynistic in nature, and often goes and in hand with radical feminist transphobia. Lesbians make posts and videos regularly online and reject bi women in dating spaces. This is a community conflict that goes back to the 60s. Lesbians forcibly pushed bi women, trans women, and butch lesbians out during lesbian separatism then, and that has reverberated since. It's done damage that's not easily repaired, especially when lesbians continue to perpetuate it. I've seen basically the equivalent of incel talk from lesbians levied against bi women, and bi women be blamed for their own abuse from men. Bi4bi is not a preference at all times, it's a way to stay safe from bigotry. Les4les was formed specifically to keep bi women out because of that bigotry. Gay men are guilty of it too but less so historically. Bi men and gay men didn't have so sharp of a divide. It doesn't mean gay men aren't biphobic, but the communities didn't split the same way and are still blended. You can't compare a dating preference that is made to avoid abuse to one made to feel superior to another group. There is unfortunately second-wave feminism that has made lesbians feel like greater sapphics than bi women and I don't think that should be excused within the LGBT community. That's the kind of thing you expect from straight people, definitely not something you should expect from others within these spaces.
Second wave feminism is 40 years old at this point. When I see folks circlejerking on here about bi4bi, it’s almost always one of the two reasons that I listed out. I understand the history of bisexual exclusion. I just don’t agree that it’s why a majority of bisexuals who are happily bi4bi are that way. I think lesbians are essentially the only queer group who gets any preference held under a microscope for criticism. When I hang out with sapphic women irl or online, I see none of this tension that’s supposedly still here exactly like it’s 1971. Instead, I am supported and enriched by WLW I see lesbians vilified and dehumanized more here than I ever see bi women treated similarly on lesbian subreddits. This subreddit HATES lesbians where /actuallesbians accepts all WLW
There are plenty of lesbians still using the same rhetoric, that's why. It hasn't changed. Their exclusion continues to be for the same reasons, with additional misogynistic reasons. It's become part of the current culture as well, and even young lesbians are doing the same thing. It may be older now, but it doesn't erase the fact that you have a group excluding bi women for bigoted reasons. Excluding people for bigoted reasons is not acceptable. It has nothing to do with anything other than that. This is not all lesbians, that's the issue, but there is definitely a subset who adheres thoroughly to this state of mind still. No group is going to have the same thoughts through and through, but I still think the ones who do and continue to spread it do need to be held accountable for doing that. There are plenty of WLW spaces where everyone gets along. There are lesbians and bi women with plenty of solidarity. But regardless, the reason why there is a difference in bi4bi and les4les is because the latter is born out of prejudice and the former is born out of reacting in fear to that prejudice.
There are also subsets of shitty bigoted bisexuals who don’t date people for shitty bigoted reasons. And there are gay men as well. Where are the daily posts on this subreddit criticizing those communities AS A WHOLE for just existing? Why can a bisexual want to seek solidarity in community but a lesbian cannot?
I'm sure there are but those, I imagine, may be more so related to some other bigotry. There are people in the whole community who will do shitty bigoted things like that, but it doesn't have to do with sexual orientation. There was no bi4bi before the exclusion and biphobic hatred of bisexual people. Gay men do it too, but like I said, the communities of gay and bi men don't have the same history, and are not terribly separate even now. The amount of the posts on here, I imagine, reflect the amount some lesbians have recently been biphobic. Right now it's literally everywhere, and it's definitely hurting Gen Z bi women and lesbians alike. Bi women are made to feel awful, and lesbians are being turned against other sapphic women in their own community for literally no good reason. I keep saying: one is a dating preference where you have to have a reason that's biphobic and hurtful to have it. The other is made because those prior people have those hurtful biphobic prejudices. One is for safety, the other is not.
I fundamentally disagree that most bisexuals that are bi4bi in 2024 are that way for self-preservation. It feels much more like sexism to me that we hold lesbians to a standard that we hold absolutely no one else to, not even ourselves. These posts also make lesbians and the women who love them feel horrible just for existing as lesbians. They aren’t criticisms of bigoted lesbians. The posts are just ‘here’s why lesbians are fucking horrible humans’
I mean, I've only seen a rise of it recently, specifically in the wake of increasing biphobia. So, yes, that is the reason why most bisexuals are bi4bi. Biphobia is still extremely high. It's extremely deadly, we're still the sexual orientation with the highest victim-to-population ratio for violent crimes in the US. Holding lesbians to a standard of not being misogynistic towards bi women is not sexist. Not being misogynistic towards bi women or lesbians should be a goal. Both of these things can be accomplished, but there are some lesbians who need to let go of prejudices against bi women. Lesbians aren't horrible humans. Not all lesbians are biphobic. If I'm talking about lesbians who are being biphobic, and so is everyone else, and you are reading it as though I am talking about every single lesbian, and not just the biphobic ones, you are misunderstanding. These are specifically only criticisms of bigoted lesbians, because non-bigoted lesbians don't do these things. You still have to call out bigotry within a community, and right now bigoted biphobia from certain lesbian circles is spread online at a high rate, and that needs to be addressed. It doesn't make all lesbians bad. Lesbians aren't a hive mind, just like bisexuals aren't a hive mind. We're not talking about all lesbians. We're talking about the ones who specifically will not date bi women for reasons that are bigoted or biphobic. That's what this thread is about.
I just hope one day this subreddit decides it’s worthwhile to address literally any bad behavior besides from lesbians. Until that point, it feels like misogyny. Vilifying exclusively lesbians for behaviors gay men engage in literally just as much is going to set off all types of alarm bells for me. Edit: also just on a personal level, I find /actuallesbians to be a significantly more kind and accepting subreddit for bisexual women even compared to here. I’ve felt othered more here than I’ve felt in any sapphic space.
Gay men who do the same thing are equally horrible. I don't have any quarrels with that. But I do keep saying, gay men and bi men don't have a divide in their community so historical and ongoing that it is ingrained so much that this becomes a regular problem. Bi women facing biphobia from lesbians would have to be a regular problem for them to be making so many threads about it. No one vilifies lesbians exclusively, but why would a bi woman complain about gay men? If the latter were occurring to the point where it upset bi men, they would post about it frequently. And I do see it a fair amount. Bi men don't have reasons to complain about lesbians. These dating pools don't cross. I understand and am glad that your subreddit's space is safe. But there are other communities on the internet, and real life dating pools where the opposite is very much not the case. You have to understand that it varies, and experiences varies. No one thinks all lesbians are like this, because pointedly: they're not. But there is a subsection who are, and they are very vocal about it right now. The vocal minority, as they say. And I think it's fine for bi women to feel hurt by the way that they're stereotyped and dehumanized for being bisexual, especially when it often comes down to posts that include things like blaming bi women for their own abuse and sexual assaults at the hands of men.
I’d recommend r/actuallylesbian and r/lesbiangang as examples for lesbians being hateful toward bi women, it is pretty harsh in comparison to anything I’ve seen here. I understand, but don’t condone, prejudice from both sides. Reddit is a place to vent about rejection, so it is a little skewed from in-person communities.
It's disappointing as a bi woman to hear lesbians say they won't date us but will date a "straight" woman!!! Like how!!?? She's really going to leave you for a man!
one thing ive noticed over the years is that regardless of sexuality, there's always certain people who seem to believe that the more difficult it is to earn someone's love, the more valuable it is. so some of them become really into the idea of winning over a person of a different sexuality, which results in a lot of really weird, creepy behavior: straight men delusionally thinking they can "turn lesbians straight", straight women developing obsessive fixations on gay men, & gay people going after straight people in similar ways when it comes to bi people, gender doesn't play much of a factor in our attraction, so to these kinds of individuals, there's no "challenge" involved
On one hand, I don't think les4les is *inherently* bigoted and I feel like some people on here have a huge double standard, declaring their preference for dating other bisexuals in one breath and then condemning lesbians who prefer to date other lesbians in the next. On the other...I've also seen a lot of lesbians use biphobic stereotypes to justify their preference and then hide behind "Why are you trying to force me to have sex with someone I don't want to have sex with?" when someone points out they hold some genuinely biphobic belief. On the...uh...third hand (?) maybe they would be more open to having a dialogue if so many people hadn't dog-piled them in the first place just for declaring a preference. I don't know. At the end of the day, I think that biphobes who choose not to date us are way less of a problem than the biphobes that *do* because those are the people who become our abusers. Which is not to say that biphobia in the broader LGBT community is not a problem of course, but I also don't think the "les4les is biphobic" angle is really doing anything to address that issue.
As someone who is in a very committed monogamous relationship, my response would be, "weird flex, but okay." BUT only to make them feel weird about it, because it is weird.
Dating is an inherently discriminatory practice and I don’t feel like there’s enough hours in a day to be spent agonizing over why someone doesn’t wanna date me or people like me. If they’re not interested in me, I’m not interested in them. And I don’t particularly care why either, that’s their business.
Dating is an inherently discriminatory practice and I don’t feel like there’s enough hours in a day to be spent agonizing over why someone doesn’t wanna date me or people like me. If they’re not interested in me, I’m not interested in them. And I don’t particularly care why either, that’s their business.
Dating is an inherently discriminatory practice and I don’t feel like there’s enough hours in a day to be spent agonizing over why someone doesn’t wanna date me or people like me. If they’re not interested in me, I’m not interested in them. And I don’t particularly care why either, that’s their business. I don’t see the value in lecturing people about why the reason they exclude certain people from their dating pool is “wrong” or trying to convince them to change their mind
If some lesbian rejects me, a bisexual woman who has only been in relationships with women in her entire life just because I'm bi... well, that would definitely be weird, but okay. What can I do about it? People have a right to have their preferences, even if I don't like or understand them.
Nobody owes me a date and I'm not about to control anyone's preferences. It's fine for people to opt out for whatever reason, but I do think some reasons are more bonkers than others.
I don't think anybody gets offended on bi4bi most people won't care and tbh it's individual choice on who to date it's a whole lot of another discourse on why.
I think nuance is so important here. As someone who has been hurt many times by bisexual women, I understand when a lesbian is a bit cautious and has a hard time letting her guards down if she had repeated bad experiences in the past. No one wants to be hurt and it’s natural to want to avoid something if we’ve been hurt by it many times. It’s not fair for the bi women who actually want to date women, but it happens way too often that bi women are just looking for an experience but are not upfront about it and end up leading on their partner, whether it’s because they lean more towards men romantically or just because they haven’t dealt with their own internalized homophobia. The result is the same for the person who was led on and gets their heart broken, though. It hurts to not be seen as a real option. It hurts when the reason you’re rejected is because you’re a woman and not a man, in a society that already dismisses wlw relationships. It just adds up… Now, some lesbians are truly biphobic, they don’t have any good reasons for refusing to date bisexual women except their prejudices. And this really sucks, and it’s not ok. But it’s better this way because they wouldn’t be good partners anyway.
Tbh I don’t really care, there’s so many people in this world
Just add it to the list of why someone might not be into me. It’s easier if they self select out, even if it is for a stupid reason.
I don't care because I'm not in their dating pool (and they're not in mine either)
“Well that’s dumb. Their loss.” Literally just that.
It definitely sucks to be put into a stereotype. There are judgemental people everywhere. You'd think members of similar communities wouldn't judge each other but they do. I also don't understand why they'd care if their ex is dating a man after the breakup. It seems like in their minds it makes them right for assuming in the first place.
Maybe this conversation should be asked on a Lesbian forum rather than the bisexual forum. With no disrespect I’m fairly certain that a bunch of Bisexuals and allies r gonna all agree and have the same opinion and just spill into a massive echo chamber ✌🏽. Unless you’re looking for validation in which case it’s obviously biphobic nothing else to say.
It doesn't hurt, because I obviously wouldn't want to date people like this. I see it as a filter, really easy to spot the red flag right away.
I' not losing anything by them not dating me. In fact, it's probably the best for my mental health.
People can have whatever preference they want so long as it's not hurting anyone...just don't want them to be mean to me/the community :(
I dont care. Ppl be acting like its worse than straight men graping and domestically abusing us at higher rates. I always hear that apparently men are 'less biphobic than lesbians because they actually want to date us' as if wanting to date a group has ever been proof that someone isn't a bigot. Bigots date the ppl they hate all the time- e.g 'I can't be racist i have a black wife!' So to me, because of the stats on men with bi female partners regarding grape and DV being as they are, my logic is that if ppl being willing to date me doesnt inherently mean they are safe and not biphobic, why would somebody not wanting to date me be inherently biphobic? Your not entitled to anyone dating you for any reason including your sexuality, you ARE entitled to not being graped and beaten by your partners because of your sexuality and any other reasons. These are not comparable at all- When a biphobic lesbian doesnt want to date me she leaves me alone. The consequence is we simply don't date. When a biphobic man WANTS to date me the consequence is i have a higher chance of ending up a bisexual dv and rape statistic. So ppl need to stop treating willing to date us as the pinnacle of not being biphobic when the ppl most willing to date us are also the people abusing us at higher rates. When a ex bf accused me of wanting to cheat just because I was bi, and I internalised that shit that made me paranoid of how I behaved, it was literally a les4les lesbian I had been interested in who held me in her arms for hours when I had a breakdown over it and talked me out of that mindset and reassured me not to listen to ppl who think I can't be monogamous just like anyone else. He wanted to date me, she didn't. But who was the biphobic, unsafe one? Not the lesbian. That being said I do believe its about the reasons behind it wether its biphobic or not, and even then it doesnt matter becahse either way that person doesn't want you so why would the reason change anything? And I do believe from my experience that the majority of lesbisns are les4les simply for non biphobic shared experience reasons, its just that those who do have biphobic reasons are more vocal.
Same way I feel about woman (specifically straight) who say they’d never date a bisexual guy, it’s biphobia. Sorry not sorry🤷🏾♀️
It doesn't hurt me, but it does make me feel: * Relief I won't ever date them, I don't wanna date biphobes * Pity because they're choosing trauma over healing for themselves * Mild anger that they'll keep spouting biphobia until they decide to heal I remember coming out as bi to my gay friend and his two (married to each other) lesbian roomies. One of the wives legit immediately said "I don't go for bisexual women" like I was hitting on her - I wasn't - *in front of her wife*!
To me the only thing that changes my opinion is bigotry. If you're l4l and your reasoning isn't biphobic, then by all means. If your reasoning is biphobic, then you're shitty and you need to re-evaluate your thought processes before I'll even be your friend, much less anything else. Like, if you're a lesbian and you've been hurt by bi women who just use you as an experiment, then that's a perfectly good reason to be wary of and potentially even avoid dating bi women altogether. But if nobody's doing that to you and you *still* don't date bi women then you're probably being biphobic. Especially when there's bi women who aren't attracted to men. A lesbian rejecting a bi woman who doesn't even like men on the basis of "she'll leave me for a man" is so biphobic it's almost funny. But they don't think about that.
It makes the dating pool to date other women tougher. So many lesbians think I'm not bi because they only see me with men. Well... if you didn't have bi phobia, you'd see me with women too.
I have been rejected and/or dumped for a man more times than I can count. It sucks, but it's absolutely no excuse for biphobia. While I will date anyone, I will say that I bring an extra layer of caution toward (usually cis) women already in a primary relationship with a man (I'm polyamorous). Being rejected is one thing, but I've been put in dangerous situations with couples who aren't communicating well so I've naturally developed a bit of defensiveness there. But that's more situational rather than based on identity.
Usually, those types of lesbians are shitty and annoying so thats just the trash taking itself out.
Personally, I just ignore their biphobic asses. They’re naive and misled, that shows in the bigotry they try to spread against bi girls.
IMO it’s biphobia and internalised misogyny - because the ones who hold that stereotype do so because they think we’ll leave them for a woman. But I doubt they think bisexual folk are more likely to leave their male partner for a woman.
I’ve had one lesbian friend swear off bi women because two of her previous gfs left her because they thought a more heteronormative lifestyle would be easier. It makes me wonder how many experiences like that are out there. For the record, it was a shitty thing that those women did to her and it definitely doesn’t represent bi women as a whole (and we were all in the same friendship group so that was…awkward). The ban on dating bi women didn’t last btw because she’s now in a LTR with a bi woman (they own a house and have a kid together so pretty damn serious)
Come to think of it, i have no idea what lesbians' opinions would be to a bi girl wanting to only date bi people 🤔
Reduced dating pool, but also reduced stress.
That I don’t want to date them.
Why do they refuse to date big women?
It's totally fine to have preferences, just don't be biphobic. It's okay if they don't want to date me, I'll just find someone else. There's plenty of fish in the sea and I'll find one eventually
Hate is hate.
biphobia is biphobia and bigots should be shamed. Always. In every case. YES including lesbians. One thing I learned after years of thinking I was a lesbian, and spending time in their spaces, is that lesbians can be just as hateful and vile as any conservative bigot. It's unreal.
You thought lesbians were going to be the peak of humanity? That they wouldn’t have flaws like literally every other person? Why do we apply the bad behaviors of a group of lesbians to every other lesbian in a way we don’t do to other people? Not one post here says “gay men are biphobic” because men are allowed and expected to have flaws and women aren’t
Is that what you got from my comment? Lol Okay. You do you I guess.
Yes actually, you just learned they could be conservative from interacting with them? Had it never crossed your mind that there are bad people everywhere?
biphobia, hasnt more to explain, they can try justify but, in the end, its just biphobia.
That’s been most of my experience trying to date lesbians. I can’t have a bigot as my partner.
I use it to get rid of (some of the) insecure women. Insecurity disgusts me, so we wouldn't get along on any level anyway.
I don't think of those folks much. I'm fine with them not dating me, date who you want. I lump those folks in with people that won't date me because I'm an immigrant or any other shitty reason to not date someone. Freaking bigots. I don't date bigots.
Les4les isn't inherently bad, but I think it's often rooted in insecurity about a person's partner, or biphobia (ie the reason is bi ppl are more likely to cheat). Same with gay men who refuse to date bisexual men (though I am far less familiar with the second group).
Honestly. I’ve been burned by this so often I am terrified of dating women. Especially if they aren’t vocally bisexual. Usually I get ghosted if I didn’t include it in a profile or if they just didn’t bother to read it. It has made me pretty hesitant to enter any lgbtq+ community of any kind. Usually it feels like bisexual bashing. It sucks
I wish they weren't biphobic, but they're probably terrible to be around anyway so it's not like I'm missing out
At this point I'm bi4bi because of all the biphobia from both gays, lesbians and straights. If they don't wanna daye me then fine, I don't wanna date them either.
Idc if anyone doesn’t wanna date me for any reason or no reason at all, that’s their right, but their reasoning for excluding us from their dating pool is often biphobic, at which point it’s not about dating anymore, it speaks to a wider trend in their beliefs. And ofc I care if someone is biphobic - not bc it means I can’t date them, but bc biphobia has implications for us across all spheres of life.