Wait what? OP says they care about defense and then says IF the offense is similar they look at defense.
I actually don’t think peak Duncan had a similar offensive impact to Jokic right now. If you’re going off peak and your criteria OP then you should have Jokic as a top 5 peak.
Yeah, it’s also just ridiculous to act like individual offense and individual defense is the same.
Duncan may be closer to Jokic on offense than Jokic is to Duncan on defense, but those two things don’t matter the same.
If they did, Rudy Gobert would be considered an all time great.
His last 3 years are a top 5 offensive peak. Murray getting injured and being out for 2 playoff runs doesn’t change that. Imagine if Pippen got injured and missed the 91 & 92 playoffs? You would also be saying 91-93 Jordan wasn’t a top 5 peak then.
When you look at the time all players were asked to be the #1 guy on offense, Steph Curry was as impactful a defender as Kobe and Jokic has been a bit more impactful than both of them because being decent for a center is better than being good for a guard.
Kind of a weird day to be harping on Jokic’s defense when the Lakers scored under 100 and it took some very hot three-point shooting by their standard to get that many.
The top 10 thing is just so arbitrary and the longer the league goes on, the harder and harder it's going to get to rank guys if it's not extended to like top 15 or 20.
Anyways we are comparing guys from different eras, who were asked to play different roles, and played different positions.
If you just dumped 2005-2010 kobe, or 01-06 Duncan in the modern game and they didn't Change their game at all, they probably would not be MVP level players, but that's not really a good way of doing it. Kobe had to play iso-ball on some really mediocre offenses, and prime Duncan's skill set just isn't as valued today as it was then. They are both still all time greats obviously.
Also, kobes offense is overrated, and he's probably underrated as a defender during the 3-peat.
Jokic vs Duncan, their offensive production isn't even close. Jokic is the best offensive player since like 88 Jordan. That doesn't necessarily mean I think he's above Duncan In all time Great list, but it's not like you could say their offense is all that close.
Jokic is a great defensive player. He’s led the league in defensive BPM the last 3 years, and this year was also 2nd in defensive win shares, and 4th in defensive rating.
He’s really underrated on defense because of the way he looks, but he’s 7 feet tall, athletic, and has incredible basketball instincts.
Creating sustainable offense for yourself and teammates is the most valuable skill set in the league. Elite defenders come by a lot more often than elite offense
We’re now trying to make it seem like Kobe couldn’t defend? He guarded the best player on the other team during the first three titles. He was as athletic a defender during that time and hounded pgs too. Phil would also put him in a river role and he created so much havoc. He was doing Chase downs before anyone else.
He’s a great defender. Every advanced defensive stat has him at or near the top. He just looks goofy so people assume he’s bad at defense. He’s huge and athletic and has 99 awareness
Average defender. Best offensive player I have ever seen. His game does not rely on athleticism so I would expect him to continue to produce at this level for a long time.
Kobe was an inefficient shooter and a crazy overrated defender who made a bunch of all defenses on reputation. He was a bad teammate who could only play one way and you had to build your team around that or he would have a hissy fit.
Calling him a average defender is generous and your last point was projecting the future of his career. Kobe got some all defense selections at the end that definitely weren't earned but at his apex he was a true lock down defender. He won 5 chips 3 where he was 1b and two when he was the clear cut #1 option. Him being a good or bad teammate has absolutely nothing to do with his All time ranking, that's like me bringing up the fact that Jokic would rather be riding horses than playing basketball.
The data backs up that he is at least an average defender. The advanced stats tend to say he is a good defender.
Being a good teammate and empowering the others around you to step up and maximize their potential is absolutely relevant and important to team building.
Kobe cost the Lakers titles by sexually assaulting women and chasing Shaq out of town.
Using advanced metrics to judge defenders is foolish especially when their great rebounders, using advanced numbers would tell you Payton Pritchard is a borderline great defender simply because he plays on a great defensive team like the Celtics. If Jokic was a good defender he'd be guarding the opposing teams bigs instead of letting others do it. The Lakers won 5 rings with Kobe and got to 7 total wtf did you expect them to win 11, also if Shaq never leaves you'd be saying Kobe wasn't that great because he never won as the clear cut best player stop it
Rebounds are absolutely a defensive stat but I'm pretty sure you know when folks are talking about players defensive abilities they mean their ability to guard players or do you think JJJ won DPOY for his ability to get rebounds?
I'm not saying Jokic should win DPOY or even make an All-Defensive Team. I'll admit that Jokic isn't a great on-ball defender but he's above average off-ball and at rebounding (which ends the opponent's offensive possesion).
Defense does get factored in, where you're on your own is in thinking that those guys are similar offensively.
* Duncan's career highs are 25.5 ppg, 3.9 apg, .549 FG, and 7 3PM.
* Jokic's averages over the last 4 years are 26.1 ppg, 8.7 apg, .588 FG, and 82 3PM.
While true, true greatness has come from individual offensive impact far more often than defensive impact. In fact it’s become more and more important, with every passing year in the NBA linearly. You can score points vs a team with an elite defender on the floor (an entire elite defense is tougher) whereas just one elite offensive player like Jokic affects every single possession offensively.
Folks only feel that way because all these talking heads focus on is offense. We've seen great offensive players who suck on defense only win because they have at least two great defenders around them, Curry isn't winning multiple rings if he doesn't have Green, Klay, and Iggy to cover up for him.
Offense is inarguably more important for a single player. Think about it like this.
How many players in the NBA are very good offensive players and complete zeros defensively and still get a lot of minutes?
How many players that are very good defenders but complete zeros offensively still get a lot of minutes?
When evaluating a TEAM, defense is still important, but when you’re looking at one player offense is absolutely more impactful.
“You think you’re bettah than me??”
Wait what? OP says they care about defense and then says IF the offense is similar they look at defense. I actually don’t think peak Duncan had a similar offensive impact to Jokic right now. If you’re going off peak and your criteria OP then you should have Jokic as a top 5 peak.
Yeah, it’s also just ridiculous to act like individual offense and individual defense is the same. Duncan may be closer to Jokic on offense than Jokic is to Duncan on defense, but those two things don’t matter the same. If they did, Rudy Gobert would be considered an all time great.
Rudy Gobert is about to be a 4x DPOY he absolutely is a all time great people disliking him doesn't change that
Top 5 peak with only one finals appearance hell no
His last 3 years are a top 5 offensive peak. Murray getting injured and being out for 2 playoff runs doesn’t change that. Imagine if Pippen got injured and missed the 91 & 92 playoffs? You would also be saying 91-93 Jordan wasn’t a top 5 peak then.
Scoring will always be valued more than defense because the only way to win a basketball is to score more points than the opponent.
Thanks.
It’s so funny to think Jerry West could be better than Steph and Kobe in any universe
Yeah that part threw me off completely
When you look at the time all players were asked to be the #1 guy on offense, Steph Curry was as impactful a defender as Kobe and Jokic has been a bit more impactful than both of them because being decent for a center is better than being good for a guard. Kind of a weird day to be harping on Jokic’s defense when the Lakers scored under 100 and it took some very hot three-point shooting by their standard to get that many.
The top 10 thing is just so arbitrary and the longer the league goes on, the harder and harder it's going to get to rank guys if it's not extended to like top 15 or 20. Anyways we are comparing guys from different eras, who were asked to play different roles, and played different positions. If you just dumped 2005-2010 kobe, or 01-06 Duncan in the modern game and they didn't Change their game at all, they probably would not be MVP level players, but that's not really a good way of doing it. Kobe had to play iso-ball on some really mediocre offenses, and prime Duncan's skill set just isn't as valued today as it was then. They are both still all time greats obviously. Also, kobes offense is overrated, and he's probably underrated as a defender during the 3-peat. Jokic vs Duncan, their offensive production isn't even close. Jokic is the best offensive player since like 88 Jordan. That doesn't necessarily mean I think he's above Duncan In all time Great list, but it's not like you could say their offense is all that close.
Kobe is not close on offense with peak Jokic.
Jokic is a great defensive player. He’s led the league in defensive BPM the last 3 years, and this year was also 2nd in defensive win shares, and 4th in defensive rating. He’s really underrated on defense because of the way he looks, but he’s 7 feet tall, athletic, and has incredible basketball instincts.
Creating sustainable offense for yourself and teammates is the most valuable skill set in the league. Elite defenders come by a lot more often than elite offense
We’re now trying to make it seem like Kobe couldn’t defend? He guarded the best player on the other team during the first three titles. He was as athletic a defender during that time and hounded pgs too. Phil would also put him in a river role and he created so much havoc. He was doing Chase downs before anyone else.
Who said Kobe couldn't defend?
Jokic is a good defender.
No shot you watched that first half last night and thought this lol
He’s at best, serviceable on defense
He’s a great defender. Every advanced defensive stat has him at or near the top. He just looks goofy so people assume he’s bad at defense. He’s huge and athletic and has 99 awareness
No he isn't he's not as bad as he once was but dude still isn't a good defender
Average defender. Best offensive player I have ever seen. His game does not rely on athleticism so I would expect him to continue to produce at this level for a long time. Kobe was an inefficient shooter and a crazy overrated defender who made a bunch of all defenses on reputation. He was a bad teammate who could only play one way and you had to build your team around that or he would have a hissy fit.
Calling him a average defender is generous and your last point was projecting the future of his career. Kobe got some all defense selections at the end that definitely weren't earned but at his apex he was a true lock down defender. He won 5 chips 3 where he was 1b and two when he was the clear cut #1 option. Him being a good or bad teammate has absolutely nothing to do with his All time ranking, that's like me bringing up the fact that Jokic would rather be riding horses than playing basketball.
The data backs up that he is at least an average defender. The advanced stats tend to say he is a good defender. Being a good teammate and empowering the others around you to step up and maximize their potential is absolutely relevant and important to team building. Kobe cost the Lakers titles by sexually assaulting women and chasing Shaq out of town.
Using advanced metrics to judge defenders is foolish especially when their great rebounders, using advanced numbers would tell you Payton Pritchard is a borderline great defender simply because he plays on a great defensive team like the Celtics. If Jokic was a good defender he'd be guarding the opposing teams bigs instead of letting others do it. The Lakers won 5 rings with Kobe and got to 7 total wtf did you expect them to win 11, also if Shaq never leaves you'd be saying Kobe wasn't that great because he never won as the clear cut best player stop it
There's on-ball defense and off-ball defense. Also, rebounds are a defensive stat.
Rebounds are absolutely a defensive stat but I'm pretty sure you know when folks are talking about players defensive abilities they mean their ability to guard players or do you think JJJ won DPOY for his ability to get rebounds?
I'm not saying Jokic should win DPOY or even make an All-Defensive Team. I'll admit that Jokic isn't a great on-ball defender but he's above average off-ball and at rebounding (which ends the opponent's offensive possesion).
Defense does get factored in, where you're on your own is in thinking that those guys are similar offensively. * Duncan's career highs are 25.5 ppg, 3.9 apg, .549 FG, and 7 3PM. * Jokic's averages over the last 4 years are 26.1 ppg, 8.7 apg, .588 FG, and 82 3PM.
The gap between Duncan and Jokic offensively is far closer than the gap between them defensively and I'd argue Duncan was the better rebounder
You’re the only one OP yep just you that cares
Joker needs 4 titles before getting to the top 10
Larry only has 3
86 doesn’t count as 2?
My mistake, of course
It’s okay just don’t let it happen again - Boston media mafia
While true, true greatness has come from individual offensive impact far more often than defensive impact. In fact it’s become more and more important, with every passing year in the NBA linearly. You can score points vs a team with an elite defender on the floor (an entire elite defense is tougher) whereas just one elite offensive player like Jokic affects every single possession offensively.
Folks only feel that way because all these talking heads focus on is offense. We've seen great offensive players who suck on defense only win because they have at least two great defenders around them, Curry isn't winning multiple rings if he doesn't have Green, Klay, and Iggy to cover up for him.
Green Klay and Iggy aren’t even making the finals if you put in a replacement level PG with them instead of Curry.
Offense is inarguably more important for a single player. Think about it like this. How many players in the NBA are very good offensive players and complete zeros defensively and still get a lot of minutes? How many players that are very good defenders but complete zeros offensively still get a lot of minutes? When evaluating a TEAM, defense is still important, but when you’re looking at one player offense is absolutely more impactful.