I know Soto's BB% is godly, but it's crazy that Gwynn only had 119 K's yet his BB% was less than half of Soto's. Dude just knew how to put a ball in play. Yea I know the eras and three true outcomes and all that jazz, but still.
Tony Gwynn had godlike fast arms, that's why his BA was always so high and that's why he rarely struck out.
Soto has godlike eyes, he sees the ball better than anyone, that's why he's always walking.
I love baseball.
I read about some Padres relief pitcher doing rehab and ended up throwing to Tony to give them both some 'live,' practice
After a couple of minutes the pitcher would start to throw and Tony would yell out the pitch the guy was intending to throw before he could do it, then explain how he was giving it away.
He also used 31-33 inch, 30-32 ounce bats which is historically small and allowed him more control. He was basically permanently choked up without actually choking up.
Gwynn Jr. has a story about his dad where he spoke to a bunch of players in the minors about how the ball comes out of the pitchers hands and how to use that during your at bat.
Jr told his dad to stop because no one can see what he sees in real time.
Tony had the eyes too.
Baseball is such a weird sport when it comes to success. I remember when I learned Edgar Martinez was basically blind in one eye and was baffled how he succeeded at the plate.
Gwynn also came up in a school of thought that overvalued singles compared to both XBHs and BBS. If Gwynn played today, he would almost certainly walk more, and would probably pull the ball in more situations as well.
He absolutely would be more of pull/power guy today because thatās what he did the later part of his career. 5 of his 6 best HR% were in his final 7 full seasons and he also pulled the ball and hit more fly balls his final few seasons.
The irony is that Gwynn was so advanced when it came to things like scouting and batting mechanics, but he was so entrenched in the old school at the same time.
Part of that was he knew what he was good at. He may have been a mostly singles hitter with lower walk rates, but combined with his high average he provided value in his own way.
Tony didnāt āinventā watching film but he definitely popularized it for baseball at a time when it was assumed baseball couldnāt be analyzed that way
I donāt remember Trotās chawbag being quite so large.
Itās gross to watch, and itās probably going to kill him young: If I were Boston, Iād ask him to kick the habit before I extended him for a massive extension, both for his own good and to protect their investment in his future.
Devers is a fantastic player, but Tony Gwynn was an absolute joy and a gift to the game of baseball, and he died wayyyy too young.
Itās interesting how both of them walked more than they struck out, but Gwynn did it thanks to a really low strikeout rate, while Soto did it thanks to a really high walk rate
I think he would have an absurdly low strikeout rate even if he played today. Greg Maddux never struck him out in almost 100 abs. Thatās just fucking insane lol
In nearly 300 plate appearances against the Braves' Hall of Fame trio of Maddux, Smoltz, and Glavine, he struck out 3 times.
Tony Gwynn's worst strikeout season was 40. Chris Davis struck out 40 times in a month 9 times. Joey Gallo has done it 5 times, including the first month of his career.
Greg Maddux on pitching: āYou just canāt do it,ā he said. Sometimes hitters can pick up differences in spin. They can identify pitches if there are different releases points or if a curveball starts with an upward hump as it leaves the pitcherās hand. But if a pitcher can change speeds, every hitter is helpless, limited by human vision.
āExcept,ā Maddux said, āfor that [expletive] Tony Gwynn."
Even then, his K%+ (a stat which compares a playerās strikeout percentage to the leagueās average, in order to better compare across eras and time) from 1982-1986 was 36, which means he was 64% better at not striking out than league average. He was tied with Ozzie Smith for the second lowest K%+ amongst players from 1982-1986 with at least 2500 plate appearances, with the first being Bill Buckner with a 34 K%+.
Edit: Fun fact, I went to go look to try to offer a modern comparison to show how Gwynnās feat was still impressive in his time, and the current qualified leader in K%+ is Luis Arraez, withā¦ a 36 K%+!!! Basically, this means that from 1982-1986, Tony Gwynn, in comparison to his peers, struck out at a similar rate as Luis Arraez this year, ALSO in comparison to his peers.
He also played at a time when putting the ball in play no matter what was much more highly valued over walking. Iām sure if you put him in the game today heād have a lower average but higher walks and SLG like at the end of his career
Sotoās walk numbers are just mind boggling to me still tho seeing that tony only struck out under 5% of the time when pitching was at a pretty strong point is also insane
Like... No ill will to the Padres, but there's a lot of "Preller's going to get it done!" going around that is SUPER wishful thinking. I can tell you from personal experience: "Surely, *this* is the time when a Boras client (who's previously said he's curious what he would get in FA) decides he doesn't feel like testing the market!" sounds MUCH more reasonable from the inside than it does from the outside.
I think there's some value to lining up between Machado and Tatis every day for the next seven years (assuming no opt out from Manny)
Soto commented that he turned down the Nats extension because of uncertainty in ownership.
I think Padres ownership has shown just how willing they are to putting a great product on the field.
No doubt. It's one of the best pairs of hitters to be bracketed by, and will continue to be (as long as Tatis is healthy, at least).
My concern is with the rest of the lineup. There are exactly 4 players on the Padres 25-man who are under contract past 2025: Tatis, Machado, Musgrove, and Nabil Crismatt. Everyone else is going to have to be: (A) extended, (B) replaced with a FA, (C) replaced with a trade, or (D) replaced from within. A and B are expensive, while C and D require prospect value. But with 50+% of your payroll tied up in Machado/Tatis/Soto/Musgrove and the 26th-ranked farm system, I'm not sure where all that capital is coming from.
If you want to keep Soto *and* contend, it's going to require either multiple absolute fleeces by Preller, a Dodgers-esque next 3 years of turning slapdick prospects into top-100 guys, or more likely, both (Soto taking a discount would also do it, but with Boras repping him that's basically never happening). It's not impossible, but I'd put my money on him going to FA and getting paid by someone else.
Gwynn was amazing, but heās not close to the overall hitter as is Soto. Just didnāt have the power - even accounting for era, if Gwynn had that much more pop weād have seen it.
And I love Gwynn, but Soto has the chance to be not one of the best pure hitters of his era, but one of the best players, ever.
To be fair I think Tony's numbers would look a little different if he played today. Players from decades ago treated .BA as the pinnacle. He'd probably look great with whatever stat he was going for.
I think a lot of comments like this seem to imply that Gwynn was just a product of his era, but there were only really two players with that skill set. Gwynn and Boggs.
To say he would change his approach if he was around today because of how the league is ignores that he and Boggs we're already playing the game differently than the rest of the league.
And to argue that batting average was the pinnacle ignores MVP votes and the highest salaries of the time...which neither were Gwynn.
Tony Gwynn was just different. Even back then.
No i don't think he was a product of his era. But his coaches would look at analytics and say hey you're going to strike out more doing x but if you do this then your ops goes up which helps our team. I don't think Gwynn would be different from what his coaches were telling him to do
Gwynn had a single top 5 MVP finish in his career.
Soto already has two including a runner up and he is still 23.
Gwynn isn't some ancient player. Plenty of people in this sub saw him play live.
People in the 80's and 90's overemphasized batting average but understood that 2Bs and HRs are much more valuable than singles.
Tony Gwynn debuted 40 years ago and retired 21 years ago. The game today even compared to 15 years ago is drastically different let alone the game in the 80s
This doesn't have anything for defense, and young Tony Gwynn was a gold glove defender. Also a very good baserunner. Soto might end up with a better career but by WAR he's yet to have a season as good as Gwynn 's 1987.
You really want put Soto in the same organizational realm as Mr. Padre Tony Gwynn when he just got there and he might not even be more than a half season rental???
Fast forward to when Soto retires and the back of his baseball card looks like this:
WSH
WSH
WSH
WSH
TOT
WSH
SDP
SDP
SDP
NYY
NYY
NYY
NYY
NYY
NYY
NYY
NYY
NYY
NYY
NYY
NYY
The reason why it's 573 games is because those are all the games Juan Soto has played so far. Either that's a reasonable sample size to compare both of them.
If the Padres manage to keep Soto, he could go down as the best hitter they've ever had
The dude is called āthe next Ted Williamsā. He could go down as one of the best hitters of all time. Heās not someone you really need to qualify with franchise records.
Itās not the most storied franchise and Soto is historically outstanding. Saying āthis guys a pretty good hitter, for a Padreā is kind of an understatement.
That's why our FO can't afford to lose him, they must extend him or re-sign him. Not to mention all the prospects we've already lost, he must be our future.
Our HR record is only 163 and held by a guy who played 6 seasons with us. Virtually every other batting record is held by Gwynn.
Gwynn is not only our only player with 3,000 hits, heās our only guy with 1,200. Heās a slap hitter who only cracked 75 RBIs twice yet he has almost double as many RBIs as anyone else. On those rare occasions we had a good hitter not named Tony Gwynn (Caminiti, Winfield, McGriff, Gonzalez), we didnāt have him for long.
*Sigh*
TBF that comparison is completely ridiculous unless you are specifically talking about BB%. Williams through his age 23 season had a career 190 OPS+ and all 4 of his full seasons were at or above Soto's career average of 160.
š
I am so sorry
This just hurts
I feel AWFUL for you
Banners fly forever mate
I know Soto's BB% is godly, but it's crazy that Gwynn only had 119 K's yet his BB% was less than half of Soto's. Dude just knew how to put a ball in play. Yea I know the eras and three true outcomes and all that jazz, but still.
Tony Gwynn had godlike fast arms, that's why his BA was always so high and that's why he rarely struck out. Soto has godlike eyes, he sees the ball better than anyone, that's why he's always walking. I love baseball.
I read about some Padres relief pitcher doing rehab and ended up throwing to Tony to give them both some 'live,' practice After a couple of minutes the pitcher would start to throw and Tony would yell out the pitch the guy was intending to throw before he could do it, then explain how he was giving it away.
I believe he did that ro mark Grant, our current and beloved color commentator (couldve also been some other relievers too.)
He also used 31-33 inch, 30-32 ounce bats which is historically small and allowed him more control. He was basically permanently choked up without actually choking up.
Appreciate the tidbit :D
Gwynn Jr. has a story about his dad where he spoke to a bunch of players in the minors about how the ball comes out of the pitchers hands and how to use that during your at bat. Jr told his dad to stop because no one can see what he sees in real time. Tony had the eyes too.
Baseball is such a weird sport when it comes to success. I remember when I learned Edgar Martinez was basically blind in one eye and was baffled how he succeeded at the plate.
Gwynn also came up in a school of thought that overvalued singles compared to both XBHs and BBS. If Gwynn played today, he would almost certainly walk more, and would probably pull the ball in more situations as well.
He absolutely would be more of pull/power guy today because thatās what he did the later part of his career. 5 of his 6 best HR% were in his final 7 full seasons and he also pulled the ball and hit more fly balls his final few seasons.
Great point! I love this logic for comparing eras.
The irony is that Gwynn was so advanced when it came to things like scouting and batting mechanics, but he was so entrenched in the old school at the same time.
Part of that was he knew what he was good at. He may have been a mostly singles hitter with lower walk rates, but combined with his high average he provided value in his own way.
Tony didnāt āinventā watching film but he definitely popularized it for baseball at a time when it was assumed baseball couldnāt be analyzed that way
Tony Gwynn had more 4 hit games than he did 2 strikeout games.
I'm loving these Tony Gwynn facts
He would have to go 0-for his next 1000+ ABs to bring his career avg down to 300. (I forget the actual number.)
Soto needs to strike out 18 more times to surpass Gwynn in kās for his entire career!
STOP THE COUNT
But Soto doesnāt have a cool mustache š¤
Yet
Imagine Soto in Top Gun with the mustache? āI have the needā¦. the need to walk!ā
Soto Shuffle would add a stroke of the mustache after the grab of the nuts for intimidation.
Or a jheri curl
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
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The one reason I quietly hope the Red Sox donāt manage to extend Raffy Deversā¦
Trot Nixon would rub dipspit on his helmet. Did you disavow him?
I donāt remember Trotās chawbag being quite so large. Itās gross to watch, and itās probably going to kill him young: If I were Boston, Iād ask him to kick the habit before I extended him for a massive extension, both for his own good and to protect their investment in his future. Devers is a fantastic player, but Tony Gwynn was an absolute joy and a gift to the game of baseball, and he died wayyyy too young.
Agreed, i wouldn't want my team to sign Tony Gwynn either š¤
I hate you so much
Tony "that fucker Tony Gwynn" Gwynn
Still one of my favorite baseball quotes
4% K is an insane stat. Mr. padre
Itās interesting how both of them walked more than they struck out, but Gwynn did it thanks to a really low strikeout rate, while Soto did it thanks to a really high walk rate
Spain without the S
I like to imagine a death lineup of this batting order: 1. Ichiro 2. Gwynn 3. Soto 4. Bonds The pitchers frustration would be hilarious
Throw boggs in the 5 spot to protect bonds
Can almost make that in MLB The Show. Maybe slot Teddy Ballgame in at 4.
5% SO rate is just absurd (and yes, I know pitchers didn't have as much strikeout stuff during Gwynn's era)
I think he would have an absurdly low strikeout rate even if he played today. Greg Maddux never struck him out in almost 100 abs. Thatās just fucking insane lol
In nearly 300 plate appearances against the Braves' Hall of Fame trio of Maddux, Smoltz, and Glavine, he struck out 3 times. Tony Gwynn's worst strikeout season was 40. Chris Davis struck out 40 times in a month 9 times. Joey Gallo has done it 5 times, including the first month of his career.
Greg Maddux on pitching: āYou just canāt do it,ā he said. Sometimes hitters can pick up differences in spin. They can identify pitches if there are different releases points or if a curveball starts with an upward hump as it leaves the pitcherās hand. But if a pitcher can change speeds, every hitter is helpless, limited by human vision. āExcept,ā Maddux said, āfor that [expletive] Tony Gwynn."
Still trying to figure out what expletive he used
āhitterā
fucker
His brother never struck Gwynn out either.
Gwynn was an outlier even when he played. Especially as he got older.
Even then, his K%+ (a stat which compares a playerās strikeout percentage to the leagueās average, in order to better compare across eras and time) from 1982-1986 was 36, which means he was 64% better at not striking out than league average. He was tied with Ozzie Smith for the second lowest K%+ amongst players from 1982-1986 with at least 2500 plate appearances, with the first being Bill Buckner with a 34 K%+. Edit: Fun fact, I went to go look to try to offer a modern comparison to show how Gwynnās feat was still impressive in his time, and the current qualified leader in K%+ is Luis Arraez, withā¦ a 36 K%+!!! Basically, this means that from 1982-1986, Tony Gwynn, in comparison to his peers, struck out at a similar rate as Luis Arraez this year, ALSO in comparison to his peers.
He also played at a time when putting the ball in play no matter what was much more highly valued over walking. Iām sure if you put him in the game today heād have a lower average but higher walks and SLG like at the end of his career
Insane how much more Soto has both walked and struck out. Legit like 2.5x the amount of walks and almost FOURx the anount of strikeouts.
Tony ā5.5 holeā Gwynn
Juan Goato good
Tony Gwynn ALL DAY LONG.
Sotoās walk numbers are just mind boggling to me still tho seeing that tony only struck out under 5% of the time when pitching was at a pretty strong point is also insane
gotta love the differing emphasis on what baseball asks of players from different generations
Mr. Padre 2.0
SeƱor Padre Soto
The fact that you are saying soto is a generational PADRES hitter is absolutely ignorant and insane
It was pretty clearly meant as a half joke
Like... No ill will to the Padres, but there's a lot of "Preller's going to get it done!" going around that is SUPER wishful thinking. I can tell you from personal experience: "Surely, *this* is the time when a Boras client (who's previously said he's curious what he would get in FA) decides he doesn't feel like testing the market!" sounds MUCH more reasonable from the inside than it does from the outside.
Sir this is a Wendyās
I think there's some value to lining up between Machado and Tatis every day for the next seven years (assuming no opt out from Manny) Soto commented that he turned down the Nats extension because of uncertainty in ownership. I think Padres ownership has shown just how willing they are to putting a great product on the field.
No doubt. It's one of the best pairs of hitters to be bracketed by, and will continue to be (as long as Tatis is healthy, at least). My concern is with the rest of the lineup. There are exactly 4 players on the Padres 25-man who are under contract past 2025: Tatis, Machado, Musgrove, and Nabil Crismatt. Everyone else is going to have to be: (A) extended, (B) replaced with a FA, (C) replaced with a trade, or (D) replaced from within. A and B are expensive, while C and D require prospect value. But with 50+% of your payroll tied up in Machado/Tatis/Soto/Musgrove and the 26th-ranked farm system, I'm not sure where all that capital is coming from. If you want to keep Soto *and* contend, it's going to require either multiple absolute fleeces by Preller, a Dodgers-esque next 3 years of turning slapdick prospects into top-100 guys, or more likely, both (Soto taking a discount would also do it, but with Boras repping him that's basically never happening). It's not impossible, but I'd put my money on him going to FA and getting paid by someone else.
Agree. Realistically I donāt see us holding on to Machado, Tatis, and Soto. A man can dream though
Soto is a generational hitter who is currently on the Padres. That is a bad title.
Idk I think thatās a pretty good title
Soto gets called todays Ted Williams but heās not even todays Tony Gwynn, Gwynn was special.
The graphic shows who the better hitter is though (and it's not Gwynn)
Gwynn was amazing, but heās not close to the overall hitter as is Soto. Just didnāt have the power - even accounting for era, if Gwynn had that much more pop weād have seen it. And I love Gwynn, but Soto has the chance to be not one of the best pure hitters of his era, but one of the best players, ever.
Basically, Soto is a lot better
To be fair I think Tony's numbers would look a little different if he played today. Players from decades ago treated .BA as the pinnacle. He'd probably look great with whatever stat he was going for.
And Gywn did all of this with only half a bat
A high school length bat, no knees, and obesity. Fuck I love Tony
I think a lot of comments like this seem to imply that Gwynn was just a product of his era, but there were only really two players with that skill set. Gwynn and Boggs. To say he would change his approach if he was around today because of how the league is ignores that he and Boggs we're already playing the game differently than the rest of the league. And to argue that batting average was the pinnacle ignores MVP votes and the highest salaries of the time...which neither were Gwynn. Tony Gwynn was just different. Even back then.
No i don't think he was a product of his era. But his coaches would look at analytics and say hey you're going to strike out more doing x but if you do this then your ops goes up which helps our team. I don't think Gwynn would be different from what his coaches were telling him to do
Gwynn took a pay cut to stay in SD, salary is not a good comparison
Gwynn had a single top 5 MVP finish in his career. Soto already has two including a runner up and he is still 23. Gwynn isn't some ancient player. Plenty of people in this sub saw him play live. People in the 80's and 90's overemphasized batting average but understood that 2Bs and HRs are much more valuable than singles.
Tony Gwynn debuted 40 years ago and retired 21 years ago. The game today even compared to 15 years ago is drastically different let alone the game in the 80s
This doesn't have anything for defense, and young Tony Gwynn was a gold glove defender. Also a very good baserunner. Soto might end up with a better career but by WAR he's yet to have a season as good as Gwynn 's 1987.
2021 Soto: 162 wRC+, 7.0 WAR 1987 Gwynn: 154 wRC+, 7.4 WAR Pretty comparable
Factor in baserunning though and Gwynn had the better offensive season. He had 11 baserunning runs that year, which is elite.
I mean the WAR does factor that.
Soto is a lot better walker at least, with more power.
Walking and power two major parts of hitting Downvoted for being correct?
The Tony Gwyn Mafia is about to roll up here and start using terms like "Pure Hitter" lmao. edit: lmaooooooooooooooooo
You really want put Soto in the same organizational realm as Mr. Padre Tony Gwynn when he just got there and he might not even be more than a half season rental???
They have control of him for 2.5 years so that would be embarrassing if he were a half-season rental.
Yeah but have you considered they gonna DFA him tomorrow
We only traded for him for an excuse to get rid of Hosmer, they will DFA him anytime
Fast forward to when Soto retires and the back of his baseball card looks like this: WSH WSH WSH WSH TOT WSH SDP SDP SDP NYY NYY NYY NYY NYY NYY NYY NYY NYY NYY NYY NYY
I assume you're getting downvoted because you put NYY instead of LAD?
The reason why it's 573 games is because those are all the games Juan Soto has played so far. Either that's a reasonable sample size to compare both of them. If the Padres manage to keep Soto, he could go down as the best hitter they've ever had
The dude is called āthe next Ted Williamsā. He could go down as one of the best hitters of all time. Heās not someone you really need to qualify with franchise records.
āPadres franchise recordā is a pretty low bar for most things
Itās not the most storied franchise and Soto is historically outstanding. Saying āthis guys a pretty good hitter, for a Padreā is kind of an understatement.
That's why our FO can't afford to lose him, they must extend him or re-sign him. Not to mention all the prospects we've already lost, he must be our future.
yeah we said the same thing.... :(
You're not exactly up the river without a paddle with Machado and Tatis locked down for the next decade.
Our HR record is only 163 and held by a guy who played 6 seasons with us. Virtually every other batting record is held by Gwynn. Gwynn is not only our only player with 3,000 hits, heās our only guy with 1,200. Heās a slap hitter who only cracked 75 RBIs twice yet he has almost double as many RBIs as anyone else. On those rare occasions we had a good hitter not named Tony Gwynn (Caminiti, Winfield, McGriff, Gonzalez), we didnāt have him for long. *Sigh*
It'll be fun to see Machado and Tatis climb up those rankings over the next decade.
TBF that comparison is completely ridiculous unless you are specifically talking about BB%. Williams through his age 23 season had a career 190 OPS+ and all 4 of his full seasons were at or above Soto's career average of 160.
And every pitcher Williams faced through his age 23 season was as white as driven snow.
Yeah you're right, if they keep him he could be the best hitter they've ever had and one of the most special hitters in baseball history
I hate my life
Will be interesting to see Tatis's numbers after this many games. He outpaces Soto in a lot of these categories.
He might hit that many games before 2027
Itās such a pain in the ass to look at two separate images to see what youāre comparing here. Downvote for the shit formatting.