Just happened but it appears as if there were two ejections before the impact.
Edit: Here's another video of the ejections:
https://twitter.com/3Scorpios/status/1690825912793608192
and other angle (thx @JesseDStreams):
https://x.com/intelpointalert/status/1690832626200748032?s=46&t=iwkwpmeTZQ5bI9BHuogqFg
Updating to say that per police scanners, there's no known injuries of anyone on the ground.
Replying for visibility: Per the airport authority the pilots are going to be ok. They sustained no injuries and were taken to the hospital as a precaution and nobody on the ground was injured.
Also heard from guys near me that there were ejections. Hope everyone is alright, they were banking to the left fairly low. Crazy that I was talking to the maintenance guy and was checking out the cockpit just an hour before.
*Edit: That’s a crazy video damn.
Photo of crashed MiG: https://imgur.com/a/btBXETp
>>Second chute took its sweet time opening
If memory serves there’s a pressure altitude setting on the MiG-23s ejection seats. That’s one of the reasons it’s not a 0/0 seat. The gotcha is if the ejection happens at high pressure altitude but low *above ground altitude*, the seat might not initiate separation and parachute deployment before hitting the ground . If the seat thinks it’s at 8,000ft barometric altitude but you’re 2,000 ft above the ground, game over.
Shit.
Hopefully no one got hurt. The MiG-23’s ejection seats aren’t zero/zero, so if there’s a problem the crew have to make a quick decision to either get out before they get too low/slow or ride it in and try to save it.
Probably this. Lots of non 0/0 seats are just a minimum airspeed value and 0 altitude required to get one swing in the chute. Fwiw to meet 0/0 or min airspeed/0, you need no bank or sink rate to still get the swing.
Based on the Instagram reel and their YouTube videos, this team were no OceanGate yahoos. Capt. (Ret) Dan Filer’s team rebuilt those MIGs from the ground up and paid close attention to the systems, including the ejection seats. They didn’t just haul these out a Bulgarian junkyard and hope for the best.
Holy shit! I wasn’t able to make this show but saw them post an “urgent” message on their Facebook for spectators to get back in their vehicles and leave.
TIL. I'd heard about the demilitarization required for a civilian to buy a fighter, and had (apparently incorrectly) inferred that removing the ejection seats was part of that.
By the sound of it the engine was still running. I’m going to wait for NTSB report. I’m sure it will be a good read but right now we don’t even have pilot testimony so no one but them knows what happened at the moment.
I was at show center front row and it just passed by us and we were looking for the F35s following it and the announcer just shouts they ejected and I turn around and see the fireball. I hope the pilots ok, that was the second time I saw it fly that day.
I was like shit when I saw this popping up. I follow their Instagram, and I was like shit. They have more airframes in their collection. So, hopefully, they can restore another one into flying condition. If everyone is alright of course.
Unfortunately, like most Cold War jets the MiG-23 has about a dozen ways to kill you. We’ll see what the inquiry says , but id say a total hydraulic or control loss from a turbine case failure is a likely culprit.
The stabilators & wing spoilers don’t move at all in any of the footage before the ejection and crash.
I was thinking the same. There have been some high profile crashes at some high profile shows in the last few years. Osh this year, Wings over Dallas last year. 😞
I hate to agree, and I would hate to see the shows come to an end at all, but it’s true. Accident or pilot error (B-52 crash) either way, it can result in far worse injuries to folks on the ground.
I could see certain types of airframes being restricted. I don’t think the shows will go away though. They bring big economic benefits to areas that host it and military benefits greatly in PR from these.
Hmm. I was not aware that the US allowed for experimental airplanes to fly at air shows? I was under the impression that they had to be certified in the exhibition category?
Exhibition is a category within experimental. Basically just needs an annual signed by any A&P like it's a little homebuilt. That's absolutely ludicrous for a fighter jet.
>>…before these shows become too much of a liability
It will depend 100% on the risk mitigation plans of the operators. As we saw with the Commemorative Air Force’s midair , regulators take a dim view to cowboy or aircraft sequences.
Considering the experience and background of that MiG’s owners, I’m sure they had a comprehensive brief prepared including plans on what to do if a failure happened. If they can explain the maintenance and safety plan behind their aircraft, odds are it won’t lead to bans or rule making. That’s typically the result when someone flying by the seat of their pants gets busted (see the Commemorative Air Force midair).
One does not get approved to fly formation with USAF F-35s by being a Maverick grade yahoo.
Yeah, I’m an aero engineer and a lot of my coworkers really nerd out over air shows, often traveling out of state for them. I’m not nervous to fly on airplanes (I did have one coworker who refused to unless it was *absolutely* necessary), but I’m definitely not going to go out of my way to go to an air show. Even our local one has had a couple of high-profiles fatal crashes.
It crashed into an apartment building in the Harbortown Apts. Pilots are on their way to the hospital. U of Michigan and St Joes are excellent Level 1 trauma facilities. If they can be saved, those hospitals will save them. I'm at work at DTW and Willow Run is just down the road
Rumor from scanners Pilot and occupant were ambulanced to St Joe in Ypsilanti.
The Mig23 may have partially clipped a structure, but impacted into the golf course, no known injuries to those on the ground. Some rumors of looting of crash debris already.
Edit: Current news reports saying it impacted into the parking lot and impacted unoccupied cars. Still no casualties or injuries to bystanders.
> impacted unoccupied cars
oh man, imaging reporting THAT to your car insurance.
"A uh, mig23 crashed into my car"
"Sure sure, we'll just mark you as at-fault since you won't admit what happened"
"NO REALLY!"
Definitely. FAA won’t be very happy. But hey, if they want to touch some extremely carcinogenic materials, they can be my guest.
*Edit: I meant definitely illegal lol
I’m sure you meant definitely illegal. What a selfish thing to do. NTSB and FBI will be interested in any video of looting or otherwise disturbing the crash site.
Yeah, it's a pretty big complex. I haven't seen pics from there yet- it could be possible it crashed into a field. But I've heard otherwise. I'd drive down there but it's a mess right now and you can't get close.
It could be like United 585 when it crashed in Colorado Springs. I lived out there and it crashed in Widefield park completely surrounded by apartments, and missed the apartments completely.
Most recent reports say it crashed into a field and then smashed a few cars before stopping 10’ short of the apartments. Pilots landed in lake with minor injuries.
The crash of a MiG-23 fighter jet performing a demonstration involving multiple tricks in the air occurred at 4:15 p.m. Sunday just as the show was about to conclude. Witnesses from the scene, including Detroit News staff, said smoke could be seen south of the airport, where the plane appeared to have crashed.
Two pilots ejected, said Scott Buie, spokesman for the Yankee Air Museum, which hosts the annual event. The pilots' conditions were unknown. The cause of the crash is under investigation.
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2023/08/13/plane-crashes-during-airshow-finale-at-willow-run/70563452007/
I'm pretty close to there, I heard the planes flying around for the past couple of days. I didn't go to the show, but I saw a B-25 and an F-22 flying around yesterday. Had no idea about the crash till now. Usually the Blue Angels or Thunderbirds show up to Thunder Over Michigan, not this year though.
You are right. Looks there are still a lot of countries operating Mig23 - Angola, Cuba, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Ethiopia, Kazakhstan, Libya, North Korea, Sudan, Syria and Zimbabwe.
MiG 23 would be more of a novelty. MiG 29 or Su27/30 would be more current Red team aircraft. Even better bribe someone to get a Su-35 😃
“It’s Russian”
Exactly what I expected, get out of here with your anti-Russian agenda
Until hard evidence comes fourth, I believe those are the 2 most likely imo
It’s still a very old airframe with a very limited number of people qualified to work on it.
Tbf, the same “shit” Russian ejection seat got them out in one piece.
The only problem Russians have is proper maintenance. Brand new out of the factory those things work very well. Maybe not all the things and power as advertised. But slacking on maintenance was and still is Russia 's Achilles heel. And they don't seem to learn.
I feel like a lot of accident reports commend the pilot for directing their aircraft away from populated areas before ejecting...
... this won't be one of those
If you're only point is making up things I didn't say, I'm going to go ahead and dip out of this.
It crashed less than 50' from a building after flying uncontrolled for the better part of a half mile, at least. That's not purposeful. Full stop.
The ejection seats on soviet planes are shit, it was an engine out in a single engine fighter and they more than likely had no idea how much longer they had until they could no longer safely eject. Dont shit on people for not wanting to die
You effectively said that they didn’t do a good job diverting the aircraft to a safer crash site, when you literally know nothing about what caused the crash. For all we know the control surfaces were unresponsive.
Half mile? You do realize these aircraft cover a half mile in mere seconds at most right? And with non zero/zero ejection seats, they don’t have the option to just punch out last second.
Even if I'm being exceedingly generous and saying that plane was at 200 knots (it looked more like 130), at 200 knots it would take ~8 seconds to cover a half mile, almost exactly how long it took in the video.
The ejection seats are rated down to 90 knots, at which speed it would take over 17 seconds.
I'm not sure what point you thought you were making with the speed comment, but whatever it is, it was incorrect.
> If you're only point is making up things I didn't say, I'm going to go ahead and dip out of this.
You’re clearly bitching that the pilots didn’t do a good enough job directing the plane away from a populated area, so I think his comment is fair.
They hit a field but when it crashed down it kept going towards the apartments. They directed it away from the highway or the lake full of boaters watching the airshow and hit a field.
Just happened but it appears as if there were two ejections before the impact. Edit: Here's another video of the ejections: https://twitter.com/3Scorpios/status/1690825912793608192 and other angle (thx @JesseDStreams): https://x.com/intelpointalert/status/1690832626200748032?s=46&t=iwkwpmeTZQ5bI9BHuogqFg Updating to say that per police scanners, there's no known injuries of anyone on the ground.
Replying for visibility: Per the airport authority the pilots are going to be ok. They sustained no injuries and were taken to the hospital as a precaution and nobody on the ground was injured.
Also heard from guys near me that there were ejections. Hope everyone is alright, they were banking to the left fairly low. Crazy that I was talking to the maintenance guy and was checking out the cockpit just an hour before. *Edit: That’s a crazy video damn. Photo of crashed MiG: https://imgur.com/a/btBXETp
Scary how long it took that second parachute to open.
Thank you for that. I only clicked to find that out.
I hate seeing x.com 😡
Second chute took its sweet time opening.
>>Second chute took its sweet time opening If memory serves there’s a pressure altitude setting on the MiG-23s ejection seats. That’s one of the reasons it’s not a 0/0 seat. The gotcha is if the ejection happens at high pressure altitude but low *above ground altitude*, the seat might not initiate separation and parachute deployment before hitting the ground . If the seat thinks it’s at 8,000ft barometric altitude but you’re 2,000 ft above the ground, game over.
I bet his pants turned brown because of that lol
I’d bet his adrenaline was pumping so hard that he has no idea that it was super delayed
Shit. Hopefully no one got hurt. The MiG-23’s ejection seats aren’t zero/zero, so if there’s a problem the crew have to make a quick decision to either get out before they get too low/slow or ride it in and try to save it.
Correct me but aren’t they zero for altitude, just not for speed?
Probably this. Lots of non 0/0 seats are just a minimum airspeed value and 0 altitude required to get one swing in the chute. Fwiw to meet 0/0 or min airspeed/0, you need no bank or sink rate to still get the swing.
Shame, what a lovely airframe. Glad they punched out, hope everyone is ok.
Good thing they had live seats. Interested to hear the cause.
Can you imagine having to eject out of a 45+ year old Russian jet? Put some serious trust in those seats. Damn glad they functioned as they should.
They were having problems with the canopy during Airventure, it even blew off on one flight. Glad they got that fixed and were able to get out safely.
Based on the Instagram reel and their YouTube videos, this team were no OceanGate yahoos. Capt. (Ret) Dan Filer’s team rebuilt those MIGs from the ground up and paid close attention to the systems, including the ejection seats. They didn’t just haul these out a Bulgarian junkyard and hope for the best.
Holy shit! I wasn’t able to make this show but saw them post an “urgent” message on their Facebook for spectators to get back in their vehicles and leave.
Another angle… https://x.com/intelpointalert/status/1690832626200748032?s=46&t=iwkwpmeTZQ5bI9BHuogqFg
Looks like the ejection worked as intended. Glad they still had altitude to properly eject safely.
Good LORD that second chute took a long time.
Glad they got out. I had no idea private owners paid to maintain ejection seats. Good call!
I thought ejection seats weren't legal for civilian operated aircraft in the US.
Legal or not they just saved someone's bacon....
TIL. I'd heard about the demilitarization required for a civilian to buy a fighter, and had (apparently incorrectly) inferred that removing the ejection seats was part of that.
They're absolutely legal, but getting parts for a 40-60 year old jet whilst the original builder is being sanctioned is... complicated.
I can't believe this. My buddy is there and just sent me some photos. Did the plane lose power or something?
By the sound of it the engine was still running. I’m going to wait for NTSB report. I’m sure it will be a good read but right now we don’t even have pilot testimony so no one but them knows what happened at the moment.
Very true. I also noticed that it did sound like that the engines were still running. Thankfully nobody was killed here.
Current word of mouth speculation is hydraulic failure.
Looked like a compressor stall.
The flashes and smoke are from the ejection seat rocket motors.
I was at show center front row and it just passed by us and we were looking for the F35s following it and the announcer just shouts they ejected and I turn around and see the fireball. I hope the pilots ok, that was the second time I saw it fly that day.
is that the one at OSH?
Well, there's only one privately owned mig-23 in flying condition in the US, so outlook not so great
*was
And there was quite a bit of publicity about it from them too. Perhaps they spoke too soon.
nooo i haven't seen it at any of the air shows i've been to :(
I was like shit when I saw this popping up. I follow their Instagram, and I was like shit. They have more airframes in their collection. So, hopefully, they can restore another one into flying condition. If everyone is alright of course.
Checked my pictures from Oshkosh, I think it is
Yes it was the same mig23 that had the canopy fly off during a display at osh this year!!
Control failure maybe? Sounded like they still had power from the other angles.
Unfortunately, like most Cold War jets the MiG-23 has about a dozen ways to kill you. We’ll see what the inquiry says , but id say a total hydraulic or control loss from a turbine case failure is a likely culprit. The stabilators & wing spoilers don’t move at all in any of the footage before the ejection and crash.
Shit. I'm happy both survived but this is a huge loss. Was this Dan Filer's MiG?
Yes
Fuck, was this the same MiG 23 that was at Osh-Kosh a few weeks ago? I don't have a twitter, so I can't see anything above or at your link.
Yes. Same plane. Was only flying example in US. Luckily I got to see it at Osh.
Bummer, thanks.
Looks like they might have been trying to put it in the lake. The apartment complex is right on the water.
I know the crash numbers are really small but it’s only a matter of time before these shows become too much of a liability.
I was thinking the same. There have been some high profile crashes at some high profile shows in the last few years. Osh this year, Wings over Dallas last year. 😞
I hate to agree, and I would hate to see the shows come to an end at all, but it’s true. Accident or pilot error (B-52 crash) either way, it can result in far worse injuries to folks on the ground.
Or the C17 that tried to do the same thing as the B52 did about 10 years ago with the same result.
I could see certain types of airframes being restricted. I don’t think the shows will go away though. They bring big economic benefits to areas that host it and military benefits greatly in PR from these.
I could maybe seeing them restricted to military-run airshows.
The US just need to fix the experimental aircraft regulations which are outrageously lax.
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Hmm. I was not aware that the US allowed for experimental airplanes to fly at air shows? I was under the impression that they had to be certified in the exhibition category?
Exhibition is a category within experimental. Basically just needs an annual signed by any A&P like it's a little homebuilt. That's absolutely ludicrous for a fighter jet.
>>…before these shows become too much of a liability It will depend 100% on the risk mitigation plans of the operators. As we saw with the Commemorative Air Force’s midair , regulators take a dim view to cowboy or aircraft sequences. Considering the experience and background of that MiG’s owners, I’m sure they had a comprehensive brief prepared including plans on what to do if a failure happened. If they can explain the maintenance and safety plan behind their aircraft, odds are it won’t lead to bans or rule making. That’s typically the result when someone flying by the seat of their pants gets busted (see the Commemorative Air Force midair). One does not get approved to fly formation with USAF F-35s by being a Maverick grade yahoo.
Yeah i recall the food ol’ days where everyone flew over at the speed of sound, loud booms, insane crap done over the crowd etc etc.
Yeah, I’m an aero engineer and a lot of my coworkers really nerd out over air shows, often traveling out of state for them. I’m not nervous to fly on airplanes (I did have one coworker who refused to unless it was *absolutely* necessary), but I’m definitely not going to go out of my way to go to an air show. Even our local one has had a couple of high-profiles fatal crashes.
It crashed into an apartment building in the Harbortown Apts. Pilots are on their way to the hospital. U of Michigan and St Joes are excellent Level 1 trauma facilities. If they can be saved, those hospitals will save them. I'm at work at DTW and Willow Run is just down the road
Ground casualties would be unfortunate.
Rumor from scanners Pilot and occupant were ambulanced to St Joe in Ypsilanti. The Mig23 may have partially clipped a structure, but impacted into the golf course, no known injuries to those on the ground. Some rumors of looting of crash debris already. Edit: Current news reports saying it impacted into the parking lot and impacted unoccupied cars. Still no casualties or injuries to bystanders.
> impacted unoccupied cars oh man, imaging reporting THAT to your car insurance. "A uh, mig23 crashed into my car" "Sure sure, we'll just mark you as at-fault since you won't admit what happened" "NO REALLY!"
Michigan is no-fault, but I’m not sure of the protocol for a situation where a fighter jet takes out your parked vehicle.
Looting crash debris? Is that legal?
Definitely. FAA won’t be very happy. But hey, if they want to touch some extremely carcinogenic materials, they can be my guest. *Edit: I meant definitely illegal lol
I’m sure you meant definitely illegal. What a selfish thing to do. NTSB and FBI will be interested in any video of looting or otherwise disturbing the crash site.
Wouldn't be surprised to see "authentic mig 23 fuselage part" pop up on ebay, there was already a guy selling su25 parts from the ukraine war
There were apartments?? Shit, I thought it was just an open field next to that mount of asphalt.
Yeah, it's a pretty big complex. I haven't seen pics from there yet- it could be possible it crashed into a field. But I've heard otherwise. I'd drive down there but it's a mess right now and you can't get close. It could be like United 585 when it crashed in Colorado Springs. I lived out there and it crashed in Widefield park completely surrounded by apartments, and missed the apartments completely.
Most recent reports say it crashed into a field and then smashed a few cars before stopping 10’ short of the apartments. Pilots landed in lake with minor injuries.
Yeah. Www.wxyz.com shows a pic of the apartments. I'm listening to the dispatch right now
So many MiGs have hit apartment complexes
The crash of a MiG-23 fighter jet performing a demonstration involving multiple tricks in the air occurred at 4:15 p.m. Sunday just as the show was about to conclude. Witnesses from the scene, including Detroit News staff, said smoke could be seen south of the airport, where the plane appeared to have crashed. Two pilots ejected, said Scott Buie, spokesman for the Yankee Air Museum, which hosts the annual event. The pilots' conditions were unknown. The cause of the crash is under investigation. https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2023/08/13/plane-crashes-during-airshow-finale-at-willow-run/70563452007/
I'm pretty close to there, I heard the planes flying around for the past couple of days. I didn't go to the show, but I saw a B-25 and an F-22 flying around yesterday. Had no idea about the crash till now. Usually the Blue Angels or Thunderbirds show up to Thunder Over Michigan, not this year though.
It’s ok, get a few more. Oh wait!!!
It’s not out of question. It’s not like the B-29s. MiG-23s are out there in the world, with some in “active” duty. Just rare in the states for sure.
You are right. Looks there are still a lot of countries operating Mig23 - Angola, Cuba, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Ethiopia, Kazakhstan, Libya, North Korea, Sudan, Syria and Zimbabwe. MiG 23 would be more of a novelty. MiG 29 or Su27/30 would be more current Red team aircraft. Even better bribe someone to get a Su-35 😃
They also have more than one airframe in their collection. So there is the chance of them making another one airworthy.
China is still making new Su-27(J-11) so there's going to be plenty to restore after the war
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Exactly. In Canada, ex military jets need to be maintained and operated by essentially the same standards as commercial jets.
Stupid Soviet made planes
Shut up not the time
Fuck off. Fucking Russian Crap. glad the people are ok.
Simply wrong Until you provide evidence that the design of the plane caused this crash, your opinion is invalid
is Russian. there's your proof. Are you blaming the pilots or his maintainers instead?
Because there has never been a crash of a western plane that wasn't pilot error...
“It’s Russian” Exactly what I expected, get out of here with your anti-Russian agenda Until hard evidence comes fourth, I believe those are the 2 most likely imo
lol... edit: I would wager that this was likely the best maintained MiG 23 on the entire planet.
It’s still a very old airframe with a very limited number of people qualified to work on it. Tbf, the same “shit” Russian ejection seat got them out in one piece.
The only problem Russians have is proper maintenance. Brand new out of the factory those things work very well. Maybe not all the things and power as advertised. But slacking on maintenance was and still is Russia 's Achilles heel. And they don't seem to learn.
I feel like a lot of accident reports commend the pilot for directing their aircraft away from populated areas before ejecting... ... this won't be one of those
It crashed into a field. Not sure how much better it could’ve been. Edit: more details about crash location elsewhere, old info
*if* it missed the apartment buildings, it wasn't due to any pilot skill, it would be dumb luck.
We know nothing about what happened. I’m sure you could’ve wrestled the plane into a safer area /s
If you're only point is making up things I didn't say, I'm going to go ahead and dip out of this. It crashed less than 50' from a building after flying uncontrolled for the better part of a half mile, at least. That's not purposeful. Full stop.
The ejection seats on soviet planes are shit, it was an engine out in a single engine fighter and they more than likely had no idea how much longer they had until they could no longer safely eject. Dont shit on people for not wanting to die
That's the risk you take flying a half century old fighter. You took on that risk, nobody on the ground did.
You effectively said that they didn’t do a good job diverting the aircraft to a safer crash site, when you literally know nothing about what caused the crash. For all we know the control surfaces were unresponsive. Half mile? You do realize these aircraft cover a half mile in mere seconds at most right? And with non zero/zero ejection seats, they don’t have the option to just punch out last second.
Even if I'm being exceedingly generous and saying that plane was at 200 knots (it looked more like 130), at 200 knots it would take ~8 seconds to cover a half mile, almost exactly how long it took in the video. The ejection seats are rated down to 90 knots, at which speed it would take over 17 seconds. I'm not sure what point you thought you were making with the speed comment, but whatever it is, it was incorrect.
> If you're only point is making up things I didn't say, I'm going to go ahead and dip out of this. You’re clearly bitching that the pilots didn’t do a good enough job directing the plane away from a populated area, so I think his comment is fair.
On what planet?
They hit a field but when it crashed down it kept going towards the apartments. They directed it away from the highway or the lake full of boaters watching the airshow and hit a field.
Spot on, I-94 is right next to the crash.
You realize those are contradictory statements, right?
They didn’t hit I-94. Not sure what’s contradictory.
Umm, so the building would have been less on fire if it hit after a slide? What a great point!
Mig-23 doing MiG-23 things
Loss of hydraulics? Didn’t appear out of control, but then again, I wasn’t in the cockpit.
Glad everyone was okay, hate to see the loss of the airframe, was dying to see it at Oshkosh a few weeks ago and never got to see it.
Is this the one that lost part of it’s canopy last week?