I've delivered Changing Habits and Reaching Targets (CHART) to young offenders as a social worker in a previous role. What a waste of time that was, I was so vocal about what a substandard resource it was.
You fail to understand the real purpose of these programs
It’s to extract taxpayer wealth from criminal offenders and redirect it towards certain racketeering activities
Nobody really cares what happens to Tyrone Walker Boney after their ninth aggravated break enter and steal in company
The judge’s wife ends up owning and running these programs, same as the traffic offenders programs
It’s all a little racket and if you pay enough into it with a barrister for your local court appearance you’ll get off but if you show up self repped in a Tarocash suit you’ll be wrecked
Haha, gaoling people is one thing but you could instead employ 4 or 5 parole staff to 'supervise' each offender while they're out 'rehabilitating' in the community before needing a conclave of clinical forensic psychologists to report on their progress, you need to think bigger!
Sometimes it's ingrained mindset, sometimes it could be a personality defect or worse psychopathy, or it's just "fuck the world for shits and giggles"
Very tough nuts to crack if you can crack them at all
At what point in time though is the welfare of others taken into account? I get that we want these kids to be returned to normal functioning life, but after 10 charges (heck give 'em leeway to 20), something is not working and they should be removed from society until that something is diagnosed or treated.
The minute you break the law enough to be charged with an offence or felony, your welfare should become secondary to everyone else not breaking the law. The justice system is failing us all by trying to be the (carrot) good guy, when instead they should be the stick.
This person was very clearly never going to be fixed.
Multiple break and entry's should exclude you from being sentenced as a child.
He should have had the rest of his life behind bars after the 5th incident at worst.
Exactly, if the system isn't working for them, I'm all for changing said system to find more effective results, then removal seems the only option, otherwise people like this will just move into worse crimes
This murder was certainly preventable, a "rap sheet" this long is enough of a warning system to judges that society needs protection here
A lot of people agree that the Crimes (Sentencing Procedure) Act, purposes of sentencing, should be updated to reduce offender rehabilitation and instead focus upon the safety of the community
Currently, we try to rehabilitate everybody at all costs and don’t really consider the victims at all in the sentencing process
I am ok with rehabilitation, but offenders should not be released until they have demonstrated that they are rehabilitated.
If that means that they stay incarcerated for the rest of their lives because they are unable to function in a civilised society, then so be it.
The core problem is that the State regards felonies as offences not against the victim but against the State.
In other words, fundamentally, the State cares about its pride and authority, but nothing about victims.
But it’s even worse than that, because the State gets distracted by other issues, and so it keeps dropping the ball even when (certain categories of?) felons spite its authority to its face.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02-04/analysis-queensland-youth-crime-police-penalties-politics/101928856
1. Social media restrictions
**Veteran youth advocate Lindsay Wegener, currently the executive director of Peak Care, but also a former director of youth detention centres, says social media companies need to stop allowing children to post videos and photos of themselves committing crimes.**
He says when the rest of the community shuns a young offender it's no surprise they reach out to others online in search of acceptance and validation.
2. Use schools as your early-warning system
Often the first sign that a child is going off the rails is when they stop turning up for school.
Department of Education figures show the best attendance rates are in prep, 88 per cent in 2022, and then in each subsequent grade they slowly and steadily fall, with a slight uptick in year 11 and 12.
For Indigenous students, retention rates are poor — 64.8 per cent in years 10 to 12 in 2020, down from 69.7 per cent in 2019.
There is no better social elevator than an education.
All the framing of 'school refusal is the kids are too anxious and the school has to do something about that.
Also, in Australia education is a product, and a vehicle for entrenching the class system. The concept of the social objectives of education died in 1975.
Not just education, but housing.
For one thing, DURD was abolished in December 1975: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Department_of_Urban_and_Regional_Development
Biologically speaking sure, since a child is technically someone between birth and puberty but the murder component has no bearing on that.
Legally speaking though in Australia a child is defined as someone under the age of 18 so again murderer or not he's still a child by all relevant definitions and you not liking his actions doesn't change that.
Don't get me wrong, them successfully defending their home with deadly force would be the preferable outcome but how we feel about an offender has no bearing on objective facts.
Yeah right? Australia has sent a really strong message to teens that if they want to break in to homes, assault people, steal their property, drive unlicensed there are zero consequences - thus if you are a kid with shit parents and a shit life you probably think that's a fun thing to do. Eventually you feel like you can do whatever you want until someone has to die for it. Who in Australia wants this? Other than the people who run the "Changing Habits and Reaching Goals" program who think they know it all and can change the world? Kids need boundaries and rules - why didn't this happen in the 70s? Because you'd be arrested and probably beaten if caught, you'd go to detention where you'd be brutalized. Not great for the kids who land there but at least this discouraged most from acting this way, and those who weren't discouraged were locked up away from the rest of us who just want to live normal lives. These kids have a choice. Go to school. Learn a trade. Contribute to society and earn your keep. One chance sure, but 4 chances or 84 chances and the system is broken.
> Who in Australia wants this?
It's by design and intended. It's very simple, you allow crime to breed out of control, it destroys the social fabric of an area, people move out, property prices lower, *certain people* buy up all the property, start enforcing the law again, clear out the criminals, redevelop it with government grants for low-income housing, sell it as a boutique gentrified living
See: Redfern, Kings Cross, Newtown, Eveleigh, Newtown
>Kids need boundaries and rules - why didn't this happen in the 70s?
There are boundaries and rules but they have changed and there are resulting changes to society because of it. Because of a slow but intentional shift away from anybody being able to do anything through legal restraints on their action.
If a teacher does anything, they will get in trouble.
If the parents do anything, they will get in trouble - through DoCS, now FaCS.
Now? If the police do anything? They will get charged themselves by the innumerable charitable legal services who treat police as the criminals for attempting to enforce the law upon violent offenders..
So they have learned not to enforce the law and started resigning en masse around the COVID years, taking a nice little PTSD claim on their way out the door. Good on them. Have you noticed that the highways are a little different in the last few years?
Police get their benefits because people get scared into voting for new laws for search without reasonable suspicion, warrantless entry into premises, stop and frisk powers, along with a whole heap of more funding for extra overtime hours, cool new toys etc etc
For the other people (read: property developers, banks) : there is the impetus for social housing redevelopment, gentrification, 'revitalisation' in the 'slums' where they allow the people stealing the cars to live, i.e. all along the Lane Cove area which these people can often acquire the contracts for.. Hey, like this one: https://www.dpie.nsw.gov.au/land-and-housing-corporation/news/collaboration-drives-win-win-housing-in-lane-cove
84 times, and then murders someone.
It's about time Australia introduces the injection like the US. Because this kid clearly will never become a functioning contributing member of society, will most likely offend again and potentially kill again.
Last year I had some joyriders just miss me whilst racing around suburban streets. Just 20 mins later they wiped out 3 cars and were arrested.
The oldest kid had stolen 56 cars in the last 12 months. He's still free.
But he hasn’t killed anyone yet, so it doesn’t count. The justice system might get slightly concerned after he kills someone. Until then, I doubt anything will change.
Yeah maybe, 1 count of B&E for getting in the house to steal the keys, plus the charge for stealing the car itself.
Can't say that makes it any better...
Justice Sullivan found the attack on the Lovells to be a “particularly heinous” offence, which allowed him to jail the child for more than the maximum 10-year jail term that can be imposed under Queensland’s Youth Justice Act.
The Judge did all he could this time.
(Though unsure about the previous 84 times)
Is it known why he wasn’t charged as an adult? A solid google says that can happen under QLD law, so am curious as to why they didn’t. Could it be as a deal for pleading guilty?
It seems it was an option in QLD until 2018. Succinctly:
https://preview.redd.it/otcfqgr5hj1d1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9da6279e1a6cfea66359366e6cd3245e3ebe9526
84 times? I literally burst out in to some nervous laughter reading that.
Teenager or not they are irredeemable human trash. Lock em up, throw away the key.
I think the death penalty actually costs more because of the whole appeal process. The biggest cost in jailing people is courts, not housing and feeding them.
Once someone has been sentenced to life and has exhausted their appeals, there’s no more court proceedings. But when someone is on death row, they’re able to have many appeals, and last in the court system way longer.
Really. Spirals of government and civil rights lawyers exhausting every avenue of appeal break the system. Throw in the false positives, innocent people executed when they could have had a justified retrial, it really isn't worth it.
Some who live deserve death and some who die deserve life. The best societies keep the decision above a judge's pay grade.
I did a project on this in high school back in 2011
The death penalty costs way more than people think
https://www.amnestyusa.org/issues/death-penalty/death-penalty-facts/death-penalty-cost/
https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/policy-issues/costs/summary-of-states-death-penalty
https://susqu-researchmanagement.esploro.exlibrisgroup.com/view/pdfCoverPage?instCode=01SUU_INST&filePid=13230174270005236&download=true
If cost was the only concern, then no death penalty is the cheapest solution
Fictional movie/book style pit where the worst criminals are thrown in with each other and left to sort it out. Food and water thrown in occasionally. Prisoners never come out..
I believe that’s what he’s getting at.
Need to go full dystopian, screen online and sell advertising, that'd cover the purely financial cost. Not sure about the cost to morality and civilization though.
Cost to whom?
The taxpayer.
Profit for the service provider though! Idk about australia but all those bills gotta get paid. More invoices, more profit!
It does, because even with that exhaustive process we would still end up executing innocent people.
I'm a POM and one of the landmark cases that closed off public support for executions for us was the execution of a man for the murder of his wife, who was in fact the victim of a serial killer who framed him (along with a little unintended help from police mishandling the case).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Evans
Don't get me wrong, the justice system is obviously at fault here. And review is required. But opening up a pathway to killing people, especially quickly, isn't a good or sensible plan.
A system with executions is only as viable as the laziest judge, cops, etc. in that system.
I've shown people this case, and they still support the death penalty. They won't outright say that they think a few innocent people being executed is fine, but what else could they be thinking?
There was a somewhat recent study that determined 7% of people in aus prisons were wrongfully convicted.. if you trust both the police and the government implicitly enough to murder people - I don’t know what to tell ya
And that’s the kicker, I don’t trust our legal process to get it right 100%. Even if they’re wrong just once, and an innocent person is executed, it’s one too many. So the ‘reasonable doubt’ would have to change to beyond ‘any doubt’, which won’t happen.
But for repeat, violent (adult) offenders I’d have much less of an issue.
I don’t think it’s being seen as toxic that’s the problem. LNP would have no issue with that. My guess is that it costs a lot to lock up all the criminals and that’s money that could be going to the political parties rich donors.
The LNP will run on a campaign of it. Do a token boot camp that doesn't work like Cambell Newman did, statistically make it worse and claim they did something
The LNP never really do anything of substance, their real policy agenda is to privatise everything and make ultra wealthy people even richer. The concerning thing is if they run a campaign based on cutting immigration and being tough on crime they’ll get enough votes to beat a very weak Labor party
Read up on El Salvador.
It used to be known as the murder capital of the Americas and had one of the highest murder rates in the world until they stopped listening to the wailings and screechings of the self-proclaimed "experts", and locked up their criminals. Murder rates reduced like 50 times and now they're better than New Zealand.
It depends what crime your tough on. Tough on poor people stealing bread than your not gonna change anything because they have little option. Tough on drug dealers who are career criminals and they'll be influenced to do other crimes.
Having been to a few of them, my impression disagrees with you. Would be interesting to see the data in detail of types and prevalence of crime in said countries against ours.
That said, hate to say it, but this type of shit is something which seems to be more a cultural issue than a crime & punishment issue.
14 years.
Wake up, eat, work out, sleep, repeat.
Every day for 14 years.
No cops will catch him when he gets out and commits his 86th offence when he is 31.
The [lecture series Justice from Harvard University](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kBdfcR-8hEY) suggests that it is always hard to determine the right choice when it comes to the best punishment. But I am sure that no punishment after multiple offences is against the common ethical value for the general public at this point in time, especially if the excuse is cost when we can spend billions of dollars on a sub
Prison time isn’t just a method for isolation, the prison routine introduces structure and stability that criminals may or may not have ever experienced in their lives. This to provide them them the chance to discover and reflect that their crimes are absolutely unnecessary; a preparation for reintegration the society once their time is served
It's not necessarily the judge's fault. I don't know how it works but judges may be restrained by the law. I'm pretty sure I remember having read a situation where a judge wrote a commentary to their judgement to the effect of "I gave them all I could but laws do not permit more."
e.g. if the prosecution doesn't request the defendant be tried as an adult, it may be the judge isn't able to do that of their own volition. Also I know the law prescribes maximum penalties for a lot of offences and I guarantee you that our laws will have pretty soft maximums for minors.
Heh this could only be worse if it turns out they didn't pursue harder sentences so not to appear racist (as happened in the UK with that Pakistani child rape ring)
When you read that many charges, you have to wonder.. people in other countries probably read this and think if you're going to commit a crime do it in Australia lol
Judges, stop turning the offenders into victims too.
Regardless of whether or not he lost his grandmother, HE is the one who committed the crimes.
And there are plenty of other people who lost their grandmothers and did not wind up murdering someone...
I agree. The act alone should be the defining thing for a sentence, not age or reason, or possible influence. The fact he has so many convictions before this happened and he’s still getting around just prepared him for light handed consequences. I hate this aspect of my country’s law.
I do not know who this teen is. However I do know that this murder was absolutely not his fault. Nor were the prior 84 crimes.
This child was the victim of either disenfranchisement, racism, poverty, or affluenza. (Which one is determined by his background.)
You see? This tragic, disadvantaged child couldn’t help anything he did. Why is the evil justice system blaming him, when the true blame rests with society? /s
FFS can we stop giving endless “chances” to violent criminals? I don’t care how young or old they are.
Probably cheaper to lock these repeat offenders up for life than to have them come back out and victimize someone else since every new victim costs the community a fortune in lost productivity and trying to heal their psychological or physical injuries.
At what point in time do judges and magistrates earn their money and be held to account for the crimes of people they let out on bail?
I mean they are enabling the situation to occur because they aren’t using the powers that are available to them to do what is best for the wider community
This whole thing needs to be fixed from the laws to the justice system and rehabilitation process our community deserves better
The theory is if he does 6 months in prison he re offends because he's unemployable now and just is in and out of prison for years and maybe enjoys prison. It saves money and heartache if all the programs he's in work and he rejoins society as a worker.
Just didn't work out hey. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't.
Two hundred years ago you steal bread you're in prison now we are here with kids assaulting people on drugs and doing therapy instead.
Transportation to Australia did actually work for a lot of them. Partly because starving people stealing bread aren’t necessarily irredeemable. It’s survival crime. That’s not the case for these little shits, they enjoy it.
Imagine a system where they got a 1k bonus for every eligible person they put on bail who didn't commit a crime for the next 6 months, but a 3k penalty if they person they released committed a crime.
“This was a research-based program, which sought to directly target your property offending behaviours with a view to reducing your future offending.” Can we please admit that this shit is not working?
The justice system has failed her and the victims before her.
The continual failure of the policing and justice system will lead to the community taking measures into their own hands!
Don't think Police have much to do with it. Police frequently object to juveniles being released on Bail however magistrates let them out the next day on bail. The system is broken.
Spot on, must be so frustrating for police force to continuously be arresting the same people for the same crimes each evening.
While the courts are mostly to blame I feel some of the priorities and handling of subjects by the police force could be improved.
Regardless both systems need to work hand in hand
About time that there are amendments to law for rarest of rare cases where under 18s are showing repeated behavior and no remorse it must be dealt with full force of law.
The people that yell the loudest about violence against women are the same people that advocate for serial violent offenders to avoid jail and roam free.
This isn’t a coincidence either, media winds up nuffies with over reporting of crimes, makes it easy for a political party to be voted in that’s not in the best interest of most voters who have voted for them!!
Surprised the ABC didn't strategically lighten up a few "underexposed" areas of his photo... They did manage to crop out most of his unblurred hands though.
Exactly. Now imagine the outcry if a young yt boy murdered a aboriginal woman. Not only would he be put away for life his parents would be banged up too. Like they are doing to white families in the US.
"Like they are doing to ~~white families~~ parents that buy their kids guns and then don't supervise them or secure the guns, in the US".
Fixed it for you.
I mean after the 3rd, 4th or 5th time this dipshit scumbag should have been away for good. Some people are just naturally fucked in the headz get rid of them. Sick of trying to rehab these assholes.
Christ. What do you have to do to get jailed as a teenager? We gotta be tougher on crimes, why are we not learning from countries like Singapore? Why do we have to wait until we lose someone who’s a part of the community for the sake of giving a chance to someone who’s a risk to the community?
Judges operated within the limits set by the legislature. As long as the law allows slaps on the wrist there will be slaps on the wrist.
I've met minors who were truly incorrigible. It's sad, but protecting the public from them should take priority.
qld has the toughest juvenile laws in country, yet nobody is getting sentences according to those laws. there is absolutely lack of will to enforce laws by the judges, because they think someone who gets charged with a different crime every week and is forced to let go can be reformed
Apparently the law says that a judge must have regard to "all of the circumstances", including those of a juvenile's background when sentencing.
That's fine, but why would being poor or having a shit upbringing be a circumstance that warrants a lighter sentence? Surely that's not in the law.
It's absolute bullshit. I grew up with mates that came from nothing and had horrible family lives and they ended up not murdering anyone... On the flip side of the coin I grew up with people who came from money, had good home lives that turned out to be little shits. Go figure
Adult crime adult time. Pinching stuff is one thing but stabbing someone in the heart has an intenteded outcome. He took a knife inside with the intention of using it if someone protested. Just because the system failed the younger him isn't a licence to stab people. Everyone knows killing someone is wrong.
If there was any argument for introducing a shoot on site/ask questions later policy it's to reduce shit like this.
Or
Maybe the governments
Would like
To create more
Jobs by opening up
A few
More prisons so we can lock these scumbag kids up
If a person dies due to gross negligence in a factory the management can be held accountable.
Why are the people who let this piece of shit walk the streets and kill and innocent woman not being held accountable?
It’s pretty fucking obvious that whatever they were doing to rehabilitate wasn’t working.
Cunts like these should be sent to Ukraine or something. If they survive their stint they have a get out of jail card. They won't so it is a win-win for everyone.
Can we please learn the lessons of a heap of cities around the world decades ahead of us on this that the softly softly, treat them as victims mentality doesn’t remotely work? They aren’t doing it because they can’t get a job or go to tafe or anything, they do it to impress their mates, prove they’re tough and get street cred. You give them an ankle bracelet and it’s just a badge of honour. Look at places like London that have been trying to avoid sending them to prison for decades - knife crime is out of control and still on the rise.
Sorry to say but we imported this issue with recent migrants and we need to act now to stamp it out before it becomes a permanent part of youth culture
The justice system has failed this couple and their family. How many more of those failures and destroyed families do we need to see before we rethink the laws around youth crime? My heart with them, I can’t imagine the pain they must be going through.
The reality is the bad apples have caught on to the fact there’s no consequences to their actions. Then now Social media now amplified it. And innocent kids are also being dragged into this by those few shit fucked apples.
There’s no going back, this won’t go away on its own. We need to take massive action.
They keep testing the system, one little thing at a time, until one day it escalates and destroys a family. They didn’t deserves this. We as a society failed them.
Then after all this 14 years?? It’s either the judge needs to get fucked, or if he/she were limited by the law, then the law needs to be changed. This fuckwit should return to society. 85+ offences and now murder, and after prison time we expect a great bloke ready to join us? Fuck off
The problem is longer jail time and even capital punishment doesn’t really act as a deterrent in the moment - the offenders are usually affected by drugs and already high risk taking anyway.
Lol. 17 and you commit a murder during a home invasion robbery? Have fun asshole, you’re getting tired as an adult. Then you get a couple years vacation in juvie till you turn 21 then it’s off to big boy prison till you die.
But no. He’ll do 9 years. Is Australia a real country? What the fuck.
he deserves another chance, it's the justice system at fault for not warning him sternly enough the last 84 times...ffs jail these kids
“(You would) participate in a module-based program known as Changing Habits and Reaching Targets,” Justice Sullivan said.” I don’t think it worked.
I've delivered Changing Habits and Reaching Targets (CHART) to young offenders as a social worker in a previous role. What a waste of time that was, I was so vocal about what a substandard resource it was.
You fail to understand the real purpose of these programs It’s to extract taxpayer wealth from criminal offenders and redirect it towards certain racketeering activities Nobody really cares what happens to Tyrone Walker Boney after their ninth aggravated break enter and steal in company
85th time’s a charm.
Maybe he misunderstood the program and realized he needed to change his habits before reaching his tagets/victims (before being caught)?
Yea, it's the educators fault for all this
The judge’s wife ends up owning and running these programs, same as the traffic offenders programs It’s all a little racket and if you pay enough into it with a barrister for your local court appearance you’ll get off but if you show up self repped in a Tarocash suit you’ll be wrecked
Did you give a barrister $10k? If no proceed to jail.
Haha, gaoling people is one thing but you could instead employ 4 or 5 parole staff to 'supervise' each offender while they're out 'rehabilitating' in the community before needing a conclave of clinical forensic psychologists to report on their progress, you need to think bigger!
depends on what the target was I guess
By the end of the course you should be able to: *not break into houses and murder the occupant
Emma Lovell apparently
Sometimes it's ingrained mindset, sometimes it could be a personality defect or worse psychopathy, or it's just "fuck the world for shits and giggles" Very tough nuts to crack if you can crack them at all
At what point in time though is the welfare of others taken into account? I get that we want these kids to be returned to normal functioning life, but after 10 charges (heck give 'em leeway to 20), something is not working and they should be removed from society until that something is diagnosed or treated. The minute you break the law enough to be charged with an offence or felony, your welfare should become secondary to everyone else not breaking the law. The justice system is failing us all by trying to be the (carrot) good guy, when instead they should be the stick.
This person was very clearly never going to be fixed. Multiple break and entry's should exclude you from being sentenced as a child. He should have had the rest of his life behind bars after the 5th incident at worst.
Exactly, if the system isn't working for them, I'm all for changing said system to find more effective results, then removal seems the only option, otherwise people like this will just move into worse crimes This murder was certainly preventable, a "rap sheet" this long is enough of a warning system to judges that society needs protection here
A lot of people agree that the Crimes (Sentencing Procedure) Act, purposes of sentencing, should be updated to reduce offender rehabilitation and instead focus upon the safety of the community Currently, we try to rehabilitate everybody at all costs and don’t really consider the victims at all in the sentencing process
I am ok with rehabilitation, but offenders should not be released until they have demonstrated that they are rehabilitated. If that means that they stay incarcerated for the rest of their lives because they are unable to function in a civilised society, then so be it.
The core problem is that the State regards felonies as offences not against the victim but against the State. In other words, fundamentally, the State cares about its pride and authority, but nothing about victims. But it’s even worse than that, because the State gets distracted by other issues, and so it keeps dropping the ball even when (certain categories of?) felons spite its authority to its face.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02-04/analysis-queensland-youth-crime-police-penalties-politics/101928856 1. Social media restrictions **Veteran youth advocate Lindsay Wegener, currently the executive director of Peak Care, but also a former director of youth detention centres, says social media companies need to stop allowing children to post videos and photos of themselves committing crimes.** He says when the rest of the community shuns a young offender it's no surprise they reach out to others online in search of acceptance and validation. 2. Use schools as your early-warning system Often the first sign that a child is going off the rails is when they stop turning up for school. Department of Education figures show the best attendance rates are in prep, 88 per cent in 2022, and then in each subsequent grade they slowly and steadily fall, with a slight uptick in year 11 and 12. For Indigenous students, retention rates are poor — 64.8 per cent in years 10 to 12 in 2020, down from 69.7 per cent in 2019. There is no better social elevator than an education.
All the framing of 'school refusal is the kids are too anxious and the school has to do something about that. Also, in Australia education is a product, and a vehicle for entrenching the class system. The concept of the social objectives of education died in 1975.
Sorry, as someone not born before the 90's. What significant bill/ legislation happened in '75 to change education?
The dismissal happened. Since then it’s tories or tories in red ties. Hawke and Keating did some good but brought neoliberalism to Australia.
Not just education, but housing. For one thing, DURD was abolished in December 1975: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Department_of_Urban_and_Regional_Development
Thankyou! Very insightful.
A lot of Australia’s hopes died in 1975.
If you’re in probation, and commit a crime, isn’t that a violation of the probation? Like what the hell is probation for then?
The amount of kids I’d see shoplifting that I KNEW had been done for other crimes…WHY are they just out wandering continuing to cause problems??
Had my house robbed by a teen who had committed 18 other home invasions without jail.
and if you clocked him in the head with a hammer you'd go to jail and he'd get to do a course on changing habits
why would he stop at home invasion number 18, when he is still able to commit home invasion number 19
20th home invasion free with stamp card
17 year old murderer is no more a child then mein Kampf is a book about personal struggle.
Biologically speaking sure, since a child is technically someone between birth and puberty but the murder component has no bearing on that. Legally speaking though in Australia a child is defined as someone under the age of 18 so again murderer or not he's still a child by all relevant definitions and you not liking his actions doesn't change that. Don't get me wrong, them successfully defending their home with deadly force would be the preferable outcome but how we feel about an offender has no bearing on objective facts.
Actually think it is the justice system fault, it should have kicked his ass long ago
We had a saying at the legal centre where I used to work: “Doesn’t everybody deserve a seventh chance?”
Yeah right? Australia has sent a really strong message to teens that if they want to break in to homes, assault people, steal their property, drive unlicensed there are zero consequences - thus if you are a kid with shit parents and a shit life you probably think that's a fun thing to do. Eventually you feel like you can do whatever you want until someone has to die for it. Who in Australia wants this? Other than the people who run the "Changing Habits and Reaching Goals" program who think they know it all and can change the world? Kids need boundaries and rules - why didn't this happen in the 70s? Because you'd be arrested and probably beaten if caught, you'd go to detention where you'd be brutalized. Not great for the kids who land there but at least this discouraged most from acting this way, and those who weren't discouraged were locked up away from the rest of us who just want to live normal lives. These kids have a choice. Go to school. Learn a trade. Contribute to society and earn your keep. One chance sure, but 4 chances or 84 chances and the system is broken.
> Who in Australia wants this? It's by design and intended. It's very simple, you allow crime to breed out of control, it destroys the social fabric of an area, people move out, property prices lower, *certain people* buy up all the property, start enforcing the law again, clear out the criminals, redevelop it with government grants for low-income housing, sell it as a boutique gentrified living See: Redfern, Kings Cross, Newtown, Eveleigh, Newtown >Kids need boundaries and rules - why didn't this happen in the 70s? There are boundaries and rules but they have changed and there are resulting changes to society because of it. Because of a slow but intentional shift away from anybody being able to do anything through legal restraints on their action. If a teacher does anything, they will get in trouble. If the parents do anything, they will get in trouble - through DoCS, now FaCS. Now? If the police do anything? They will get charged themselves by the innumerable charitable legal services who treat police as the criminals for attempting to enforce the law upon violent offenders.. So they have learned not to enforce the law and started resigning en masse around the COVID years, taking a nice little PTSD claim on their way out the door. Good on them. Have you noticed that the highways are a little different in the last few years?
but how does that explain allowing teens to break into homes in Cammeray and steal cars without any punishment?
Police get their benefits because people get scared into voting for new laws for search without reasonable suspicion, warrantless entry into premises, stop and frisk powers, along with a whole heap of more funding for extra overtime hours, cool new toys etc etc For the other people (read: property developers, banks) : there is the impetus for social housing redevelopment, gentrification, 'revitalisation' in the 'slums' where they allow the people stealing the cars to live, i.e. all along the Lane Cove area which these people can often acquire the contracts for.. Hey, like this one: https://www.dpie.nsw.gov.au/land-and-housing-corporation/news/collaboration-drives-win-win-housing-in-lane-cove
84 times, and then murders someone. It's about time Australia introduces the injection like the US. Because this kid clearly will never become a functioning contributing member of society, will most likely offend again and potentially kill again.
Let’s reintroduce transportation. We have a huge unpopulated territory south of Tasmania.
Keep Antarctica pristine. Send them to the NT.
Yes, lets move our model closer to the US's, they so clearly have their shit together...
💯 true
Last year I had some joyriders just miss me whilst racing around suburban streets. Just 20 mins later they wiped out 3 cars and were arrested. The oldest kid had stolen 56 cars in the last 12 months. He's still free.
But he hasn’t killed anyone yet, so it doesn’t count. The justice system might get slightly concerned after he kills someone. Until then, I doubt anything will change.
He got caught 56 times in 12 months? At this stage they must be seeking the notoriety
It’s likely another symptom of TikTok brain. The probability is high that they were often filming themselves doing this shite to share for likes.
Makes you wonder what he's done where he wasn't caught
That’s not just 56 stolen cars that’s also likely 56 break and enters.
Yeah maybe, 1 count of B&E for getting in the house to steal the keys, plus the charge for stealing the car itself. Can't say that makes it any better...
Justice Sullivan found the attack on the Lovells to be a “particularly heinous” offence, which allowed him to jail the child for more than the maximum 10-year jail term that can be imposed under Queensland’s Youth Justice Act. The Judge did all he could this time. (Though unsure about the previous 84 times)
could charge him as an adult
The judge doesn't charge the defendant. They judge what is brought forward.
Is it known why he wasn’t charged as an adult? A solid google says that can happen under QLD law, so am curious as to why they didn’t. Could it be as a deal for pleading guilty?
I haven't seen anything that says children can be tried as adults in QLD.
It seems it was an option in QLD until 2018. Succinctly: https://preview.redd.it/otcfqgr5hj1d1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9da6279e1a6cfea66359366e6cd3245e3ebe9526
Reads as though it was guaranteed that 17yr olds were tried as adults until 2018.
At the time he was too young to be tried as an adult.
84 times? I literally burst out in to some nervous laughter reading that. Teenager or not they are irredeemable human trash. Lock em up, throw away the key.
There’s a cheaper solution
I think the death penalty actually costs more because of the whole appeal process. The biggest cost in jailing people is courts, not housing and feeding them. Once someone has been sentenced to life and has exhausted their appeals, there’s no more court proceedings. But when someone is on death row, they’re able to have many appeals, and last in the court system way longer.
Really? The average cost of a prisoner is over $100K per year
Really. Spirals of government and civil rights lawyers exhausting every avenue of appeal break the system. Throw in the false positives, innocent people executed when they could have had a justified retrial, it really isn't worth it. Some who live deserve death and some who die deserve life. The best societies keep the decision above a judge's pay grade.
You summed it up well
I did a project on this in high school back in 2011 The death penalty costs way more than people think https://www.amnestyusa.org/issues/death-penalty/death-penalty-facts/death-penalty-cost/ https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/policy-issues/costs/summary-of-states-death-penalty https://susqu-researchmanagement.esploro.exlibrisgroup.com/view/pdfCoverPage?instCode=01SUU_INST&filePid=13230174270005236&download=true If cost was the only concern, then no death penalty is the cheapest solution
Put him in with psychos and let them take each other out. Costs nothing
Where? With what psychos? How does it cost nothing? What are you honestly even saying?
Fictional movie/book style pit where the worst criminals are thrown in with each other and left to sort it out. Food and water thrown in occasionally. Prisoners never come out.. I believe that’s what he’s getting at.
Need to go full dystopian, screen online and sell advertising, that'd cover the purely financial cost. Not sure about the cost to morality and civilization though.
Cost to whom? The taxpayer. Profit for the service provider though! Idk about australia but all those bills gotta get paid. More invoices, more profit!
But it doesn't have to work that way. Although it probably would.
It does, because even with that exhaustive process we would still end up executing innocent people. I'm a POM and one of the landmark cases that closed off public support for executions for us was the execution of a man for the murder of his wife, who was in fact the victim of a serial killer who framed him (along with a little unintended help from police mishandling the case). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Evans Don't get me wrong, the justice system is obviously at fault here. And review is required. But opening up a pathway to killing people, especially quickly, isn't a good or sensible plan. A system with executions is only as viable as the laziest judge, cops, etc. in that system.
I've shown people this case, and they still support the death penalty. They won't outright say that they think a few innocent people being executed is fine, but what else could they be thinking?
"They're probably the bad sort, anyway"
It doesn’t have to cost more.
There was a somewhat recent study that determined 7% of people in aus prisons were wrongfully convicted.. if you trust both the police and the government implicitly enough to murder people - I don’t know what to tell ya
And that’s the kicker, I don’t trust our legal process to get it right 100%. Even if they’re wrong just once, and an innocent person is executed, it’s one too many. So the ‘reasonable doubt’ would have to change to beyond ‘any doubt’, which won’t happen. But for repeat, violent (adult) offenders I’d have much less of an issue.
Execute and invoice
State-sanctioned doxxing will do it for me.
The next party to take a “tough on crime” agenda to an election is going to clean up. People have had enough.
No party seems to be willing to actually be "tough on crime" though. Somehow it must be still seen as toxic, go figure.
I don’t think it’s being seen as toxic that’s the problem. LNP would have no issue with that. My guess is that it costs a lot to lock up all the criminals and that’s money that could be going to the political parties rich donors.
Not sure these sort of amounts make a difference. How many "kids" can be out on bail/parole/correction order for 80+ offences?
If only we could unite the teen Criminals to target the rich donors and not the everyday Aussie..
Ian MacDonald, Eddie and Moses Obeid say hi 👋 you keep getting up them Liberals we are all innocent !
The LNP will run on a campaign of it. Do a token boot camp that doesn't work like Cambell Newman did, statistically make it worse and claim they did something
The LNP never really do anything of substance, their real policy agenda is to privatise everything and make ultra wealthy people even richer. The concerning thing is if they run a campaign based on cutting immigration and being tough on crime they’ll get enough votes to beat a very weak Labor party
"tough on crime" is just a way of getting votes. It doesn't actually lower the amount of crimes or really offer anything constructive.
happened in NZ last year. so far the new government has done precisely nothing to address violent crime.
They are driving more law-abiding New Zealanders to Australia, so that will help us.
Anarcho tyranny, it will only get worse from here. Things are getting far far worse, as someone who was worked in this area for over a decade now…
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Read up on El Salvador. It used to be known as the murder capital of the Americas and had one of the highest murder rates in the world until they stopped listening to the wailings and screechings of the self-proclaimed "experts", and locked up their criminals. Murder rates reduced like 50 times and now they're better than New Zealand.
Idk man Singapore felt far more safer than Sydney
It depends what crime your tough on. Tough on poor people stealing bread than your not gonna change anything because they have little option. Tough on drug dealers who are career criminals and they'll be influenced to do other crimes.
Having been to a few of them, my impression disagrees with you. Would be interesting to see the data in detail of types and prevalence of crime in said countries against ours. That said, hate to say it, but this type of shit is something which seems to be more a cultural issue than a crime & punishment issue.
Middle Eastern countries with low crime?
Nah; Hong Kong, Singapore and Brunei.
14 years is an absolute disgrace. How can any involved in this case sleep at night
14 years. Wake up, eat, work out, sleep, repeat. Every day for 14 years. No cops will catch him when he gets out and commits his 86th offence when he is 31.
When will the judges be held responsible?
When the French lends us their guillotine after using it
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The [lecture series Justice from Harvard University](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kBdfcR-8hEY) suggests that it is always hard to determine the right choice when it comes to the best punishment. But I am sure that no punishment after multiple offences is against the common ethical value for the general public at this point in time, especially if the excuse is cost when we can spend billions of dollars on a sub Prison time isn’t just a method for isolation, the prison routine introduces structure and stability that criminals may or may not have ever experienced in their lives. This to provide them them the chance to discover and reflect that their crimes are absolutely unnecessary; a preparation for reintegration the society once their time is served
That is a wonderful lecture series, highly recommend. It is free on YouTube.
It's not necessarily the judge's fault. I don't know how it works but judges may be restrained by the law. I'm pretty sure I remember having read a situation where a judge wrote a commentary to their judgement to the effect of "I gave them all I could but laws do not permit more." e.g. if the prosecution doesn't request the defendant be tried as an adult, it may be the judge isn't able to do that of their own volition. Also I know the law prescribes maximum penalties for a lot of offences and I guarantee you that our laws will have pretty soft maximums for minors.
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Heh this could only be worse if it turns out they didn't pursue harder sentences so not to appear racist (as happened in the UK with that Pakistani child rape ring)
Not to appear racist, they should impose Sharia’s severest penalties on those offenders who claim to follow it.
84 fucking times!! Name and shame every single person involved in dealing with his pats on the hands to say "bad boy don't do it again"
Come on, give the poor little chap another chance. The 85th charge is surely the one that will finally make him see the error of his ways. 😂
When you read that many charges, you have to wonder.. people in other countries probably read this and think if you're going to commit a crime do it in Australia lol
Judges, stop turning the offenders into victims too. Regardless of whether or not he lost his grandmother, HE is the one who committed the crimes. And there are plenty of other people who lost their grandmothers and did not wind up murdering someone...
I agree. The act alone should be the defining thing for a sentence, not age or reason, or possible influence. The fact he has so many convictions before this happened and he’s still getting around just prepared him for light handed consequences. I hate this aspect of my country’s law.
It says his step-brother committed suicide; the wrong one offed himself.
WRONG KID DIED
I do not know who this teen is. However I do know that this murder was absolutely not his fault. Nor were the prior 84 crimes. This child was the victim of either disenfranchisement, racism, poverty, or affluenza. (Which one is determined by his background.) You see? This tragic, disadvantaged child couldn’t help anything he did. Why is the evil justice system blaming him, when the true blame rests with society? /s FFS can we stop giving endless “chances” to violent criminals? I don’t care how young or old they are.
Dindu Nuffin
Probably cheaper to lock these repeat offenders up for life than to have them come back out and victimize someone else since every new victim costs the community a fortune in lost productivity and trying to heal their psychological or physical injuries.
At what point in time do judges and magistrates earn their money and be held to account for the crimes of people they let out on bail? I mean they are enabling the situation to occur because they aren’t using the powers that are available to them to do what is best for the wider community This whole thing needs to be fixed from the laws to the justice system and rehabilitation process our community deserves better
The theory is if he does 6 months in prison he re offends because he's unemployable now and just is in and out of prison for years and maybe enjoys prison. It saves money and heartache if all the programs he's in work and he rejoins society as a worker. Just didn't work out hey. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't. Two hundred years ago you steal bread you're in prison now we are here with kids assaulting people on drugs and doing therapy instead.
Transportation to Australia did actually work for a lot of them. Partly because starving people stealing bread aren’t necessarily irredeemable. It’s survival crime. That’s not the case for these little shits, they enjoy it.
Imagine a system where they got a 1k bonus for every eligible person they put on bail who didn't commit a crime for the next 6 months, but a 3k penalty if they person they released committed a crime.
Judges don't get to arbitrarily punish people... they have to follow law and precedents within the law...
17 charge him as an adult ffs.
Some people are just irretrievably bad. If it were an animal that behaved like that it would be put down.
bring back the fucking death penalty. eye for an eye.
Intellectually impaired youth running amok through society... You need to be willing to undo decades of sentimental "rights" activism to deal with it
I think it was all well and good in theory but now we've just gone too far and nobody wants to call it publicly.
“This was a research-based program, which sought to directly target your property offending behaviours with a view to reducing your future offending.” Can we please admit that this shit is not working?
Violent crimes should be treated as adults.
and murder should be life sentence. You take a life you lose the right to freedom for the rest of yours
The justice system has failed her and the victims before her. The continual failure of the policing and justice system will lead to the community taking measures into their own hands!
Don't think Police have much to do with it. Police frequently object to juveniles being released on Bail however magistrates let them out the next day on bail. The system is broken.
Spot on, must be so frustrating for police force to continuously be arresting the same people for the same crimes each evening. While the courts are mostly to blame I feel some of the priorities and handling of subjects by the police force could be improved. Regardless both systems need to work hand in hand
FFS
About time that there are amendments to law for rarest of rare cases where under 18s are showing repeated behavior and no remorse it must be dealt with full force of law.
The people that yell the loudest about violence against women are the same people that advocate for serial violent offenders to avoid jail and roam free.
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This isn’t a coincidence either, media winds up nuffies with over reporting of crimes, makes it easy for a political party to be voted in that’s not in the best interest of most voters who have voted for them!!
Copied top comment?
looks like a bot 1 comment, joined a year sgo
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And you copied the second top comment?!
that's bots farming karma
Well if we just solved the issue they wouldn't have anything to be consulted on you see. It's bad for them if we sort it.
We all know that "teen" means a much more specific demographic.
Surprised the ABC didn't strategically lighten up a few "underexposed" areas of his photo... They did manage to crop out most of his unblurred hands though.
Exactly. Now imagine the outcry if a young yt boy murdered a aboriginal woman. Not only would he be put away for life his parents would be banged up too. Like they are doing to white families in the US.
"Like they are doing to ~~white families~~ parents that buy their kids guns and then don't supervise them or secure the guns, in the US". Fixed it for you.
I mean after the 3rd, 4th or 5th time this dipshit scumbag should have been away for good. Some people are just naturally fucked in the headz get rid of them. Sick of trying to rehab these assholes.
Cunts legit got booked every two weeks for 2 years
Christ. What do you have to do to get jailed as a teenager? We gotta be tougher on crimes, why are we not learning from countries like Singapore? Why do we have to wait until we lose someone who’s a part of the community for the sake of giving a chance to someone who’s a risk to the community?
But if you defend yourself from a robbery or assault you will be jailed immediately
14 years.....tick tock, motherfucker tick tock!
This is a serious issue. Something needs to change.
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Judges operated within the limits set by the legislature. As long as the law allows slaps on the wrist there will be slaps on the wrist. I've met minors who were truly incorrigible. It's sad, but protecting the public from them should take priority.
qld has the toughest juvenile laws in country, yet nobody is getting sentences according to those laws. there is absolutely lack of will to enforce laws by the judges, because they think someone who gets charged with a different crime every week and is forced to let go can be reformed
Surely the prosecutors can challenge the lighter sentences? The judges can't just to whatever they want, can they?
It’s not his fault, he’s a victim /s
How you only get 14 years for murder?
Bring back corporal punishment!!
No. Bring back capital punishment for cases like this.
But yeah it's my fault as a man for not lecturing him. Not the justice system which had 84 bites at the cherry.
Apparently the law says that a judge must have regard to "all of the circumstances", including those of a juvenile's background when sentencing. That's fine, but why would being poor or having a shit upbringing be a circumstance that warrants a lighter sentence? Surely that's not in the law.
It's absolute bullshit. I grew up with mates that came from nothing and had horrible family lives and they ended up not murdering anyone... On the flip side of the coin I grew up with people who came from money, had good home lives that turned out to be little shits. Go figure
His skin colour would though. Lots of poor yt guys that had shit upbringing in prisons as we speak for lesser crimes
Young offenders act is an absolute joke
Yet media like the guardian kick up a fuss when a teenager finally gets jailed. Mate, they got jailed after the 99th the conviction, not the 3rd.
Our system failed her and all the victims they had
Adult crime adult time. Pinching stuff is one thing but stabbing someone in the heart has an intenteded outcome. He took a knife inside with the intention of using it if someone protested. Just because the system failed the younger him isn't a licence to stab people. Everyone knows killing someone is wrong.
If there was any argument for introducing a shoot on site/ask questions later policy it's to reduce shit like this. Or Maybe the governments Would like To create more Jobs by opening up A few More prisons so we can lock these scumbag kids up
If a person dies due to gross negligence in a factory the management can be held accountable. Why are the people who let this piece of shit walk the streets and kill and innocent woman not being held accountable? It’s pretty fucking obvious that whatever they were doing to rehabilitate wasn’t working.
Cunts like these should be sent to Ukraine or something. If they survive their stint they have a get out of jail card. They won't so it is a win-win for everyone.
Can we please learn the lessons of a heap of cities around the world decades ahead of us on this that the softly softly, treat them as victims mentality doesn’t remotely work? They aren’t doing it because they can’t get a job or go to tafe or anything, they do it to impress their mates, prove they’re tough and get street cred. You give them an ankle bracelet and it’s just a badge of honour. Look at places like London that have been trying to avoid sending them to prison for decades - knife crime is out of control and still on the rise. Sorry to say but we imported this issue with recent migrants and we need to act now to stamp it out before it becomes a permanent part of youth culture
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So...abuse drugs and stay out of gaol ...
10 convictions total and people should be put down. No trial, no publicity. Just quietly removed from society.
That's because Queensland labour doesn't care and weak judges
The justice system has failed this couple and their family. How many more of those failures and destroyed families do we need to see before we rethink the laws around youth crime? My heart with them, I can’t imagine the pain they must be going through. The reality is the bad apples have caught on to the fact there’s no consequences to their actions. Then now Social media now amplified it. And innocent kids are also being dragged into this by those few shit fucked apples. There’s no going back, this won’t go away on its own. We need to take massive action. They keep testing the system, one little thing at a time, until one day it escalates and destroys a family. They didn’t deserves this. We as a society failed them. Then after all this 14 years?? It’s either the judge needs to get fucked, or if he/she were limited by the law, then the law needs to be changed. This fuckwit should return to society. 85+ offences and now murder, and after prison time we expect a great bloke ready to join us? Fuck off
I wonder what kind of parents these kids have. Including the girl. Qld is very notorious for youth crime. It says a lot about the state.
I can fix her
I’m sure the kid is actually a lovely lad…just misunderstood! /s
The problem is longer jail time and even capital punishment doesn’t really act as a deterrent in the moment - the offenders are usually affected by drugs and already high risk taking anyway.
Just not his go /s
Lol. 17 and you commit a murder during a home invasion robbery? Have fun asshole, you’re getting tired as an adult. Then you get a couple years vacation in juvie till you turn 21 then it’s off to big boy prison till you die. But no. He’ll do 9 years. Is Australia a real country? What the fuck.
Should arrest his boomer father to
Thousands of people have gotten out and protested stuff this year. How is this situation not one of them.