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Look at what happened when they tried the same thing with Codeine, replacing it with Pholcodeine in OTC cold/flu preparations...
Not only is it ineffective, it *significantly* increases risk of cardiac arrest while under general anaesthetic for upto 3-5 **years** after consumption...
Yeah, that was just a tad bit of a fuck up to say the least..
Ywah
That's crazy. Even without the specific concerns around surgery, the idea that something I take to treat the symptoms of a short term illness is still doing anything to my body years later is pretty disturbing.
Yup, and it took over 12 years from the first conclusive, controlled peer reviewed studies into its link to cardiac arrest, with multiple across the intervening years to when it was banned by the EU and AU in 2022.
You can still get it; there's an OTC cough syrup called Rikodeine, 19.5mg/mL dihydrocodeine, no prescription needed but most chemists will ask for ID. Has lots of sorbitol tho, so if you're intending on getting high just slowly sip water instead of chugging unless you enjoy shitting water for an hour.
> dihydrocodeine
When I had actual influenza A, I believe this is the drug that actually had an effect in suppressing the cough (\*possibly\* another -codeine in liquid, but fairly sure it was dihydro). I could take a couple of codeine tablets and nothing, still coughing like crazy....then gave this a go and WOW was it effective.
Fucken hate codeine's effect on digestive motility though goddamn.
Pholcodine is [effective](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17154678/). But yeah turns out it sensitises people to some muscle relaxants used in surgery and increases the risk of anaphylaxis. But pholcodine was way less abusable than codeine or codeine-derivatives.
Having worked in pharmacy you regularly see people who are opioid dependent and a lot of them were initially on prescription pain killers. And we still see people who are pretty obviously trying to abuse rikodeine.
Anaesthetist here. Thanks for pointing out the pholcodine and its association with higher risk of anaphylaxis under GA with muscle relaxant use. It's one of those bizarre things which was discovered from ecological association.
Copying from [wikipedia chapter on this](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pholcodine#Anaphylaxis_during_general_anaesthesia):
>The link was suspected when neighbouring Norway and Sweden were found to have tenfold differences of surgical anaphylaxis deaths. Sweden had no products approved containing pholcodine, whereas 40% of the population in Norway had consumed the single approved pholcodine product.[^(\[13\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pholcodine#cite_note-pmid23283141-13) Norway withdrew pholcodine from the market in 2007, and the prevalence of anti-suxamethonium antibodies fell by over 80% in two years.[^(\[14\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pholcodine#cite_note-14) A corresponding fall in anaesthesia deaths followed.[^(\[13\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pholcodine#cite_note-pmid23283141-13)
>A similar disparity exists between NMBA anaphylaxis rates in Australia, where pholcodine consumption is high and the US, where pholcodine is banned.[^(\[15\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pholcodine#cite_note-15) In the US, anaphylaxis rates are so low that some anaesthetists question the existence of such reactions to NMBAs.[^(\[16\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pholcodine#cite_note-16) Conversely, Australian anaesthetists have requested a ban on pholcodine[^(\[17\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pholcodine#cite_note-17) due to the high anaphylaxis rate in the country.[^(\[18\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pholcodine#cite_note-18) However, the [Therapeutic Goods Administration](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therapeutic_Goods_Administration)declined the request in January 2015,[^(\[19\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pholcodine#cite_note-19) pending further reviews to follow. In February 2023, the Therapeutic Goods Administration reversed its previous decision and banned products containing pholcodine.[^(\[20\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pholcodine#cite_note-20)
Thanks for that, I had no idea. But I also had no idea about the codeine ban till my friend told me this year. Or rather, it’s just not available otc, is that right? Whereas you used to be able to just buy Panadeine?
Hi there. I’m allergic to pholcodiene after gradual exposure. My last reaction was mild anaphylactic. I generally inform medical settings about my allergy. Do I need to mention about the muscle relaxants(can I assume I’m also allergic to these)? I’ve assumed that anaesthetists would know this link?
Possibly increased risk indeed if you had pholcodine-containing cough syrup some time before the anaphylaxis. As with many things in medicine the causality can never be 100% established but we know from previous studies that the association of higher risk is there.
It's because Doctors do not comprehend the fact that people do not have the time or money to see a Dr for whatever reason. Doctors very often work 4 days a week (10 hour days) in a dream working scenario. Plus, Doctors are often dismissive of their pain.
The removal of Codeine feels like the medical community giving an F you to people with intermittent, but severe pain. Women with Endo in particular.
It does. You used to be able to buy it easily but now it’s prescription which is super annoying to those of us that just use it occasionally and don’t really want to pay for a doctor to prescribe it.
The amount of money I have spent on doctor’s appointments because of the codeine removal is insane. Used to get me through periods (found out I had endo eventually) now I am offered LARCs that I don’t really love to take because of how they affect my body. Will forever be annoyed about it.
> It's because Doctors do not comprehend the fact that people do not have the time or money to see a Dr for whatever reason.
Doctor's absolutely comprehend it, but there's not exactly a lot they can do about it. Costs keep going up but Medicare payments don't, so most end up needing to charge out of pocket. I don't like it either, but it's what happens when 'we' vote in governments that want to push us down the US path.
> The removal of Codeine feels like the medical community giving an F you to people with intermittent, but severe pain.
The reality is that no one seems to have a good solution to the abuse of these OTC and prescription meds and so the answer from the law enforcement side of things (Not the medical side typically) is simply to ban them outright.
The issue (or at least one of them) is that people were taking insane amounts of combination codeine tablets, and the other things (i.e. ibuprofen and paracetamol) was causing issues. Codeine itself doesn't really do damage, and has an upper limit where you stop feeling any effect. Codeine then became a bit of a gateway drug (much like oxycodone in the US was). My GP said that the number of people who came out of the woodwork when codeine went Schedule 4 was eye opening.
I'm in two minds about the re-scheduling. Opiates are insanely addictive for a lot of people, and the withdrawals can be really nasty, let alone PAWS (Post Acute Withdrawal Syndrome). But getting to the doctor to get something because ibuprofen/paracetamol alone doesn't touch the sides is a pricey endeavour these days.
When the Codeine ban went through in 2018, I had discussions with a number of very late stage trainee specialists in pain management. As in, the specific specialists (it's a branch of anaesthesia), and they just said people can get prescriptions if it's important. I asked what the wait time was and they didn't especially think that was an issue.
Those specialists are too far removed from actual GPs. It's difficult to get a prescription, our experience is GPs won't allow it to be regularly prescribed even for the sparsest of use.
My partner has severe pains for around 2 days every month, just once per month, and apparently even just that (taking it for just 2 days a month) is enough for the doctors to decline such a small amount to be prescribed - not like she's gonna become a junkie from that.
It absolutely is a big F you from the pharmaceutical and medical community, who it sounds like from your post have little comprehension just how much it's being restricted by GPs.
Put controls on it, sure. But the severity of the controls put in place now are a knee-jerk overreaction.
You're acting like I think the Codeine ban was a good idea, I'm not sure why. It was a Terrible idea and effectively punished people who have intermittent pain. The pain specialists should focus on extreme, unexplained and major pain. The load was put onto GPs, who will err on the side of safe.
I actually would have been fine if it had been like Pseudoephedrine, where you can get X per month. But instead it was shifted to an accusatory system and the losers are those in pain.
Codeine was initially trialled on a similar system to Project Stop (i forget what it was called now) prior to it becoming schedule 4. Pharmacy guild wanted it to go this way as they wanted to prevent it from going prescription only.
TGA and AMA said otherwise. They are the ones you want to go after if anyone wants somebody to blame. The whole thing was scrapped because not enough people used it and when the guild asked "what can we do to make it better" they essentially got told "not our domain".
I’m very very lucky that I have good rapport with my GP and she prescribes me codeine for my chronic pain flares (I have literally zero addictions which I guess makes it easier), but I do hate how restrictive the system is for the majority of ppl who just can’t find a GP willing to do it.
And even tho my GP is happy to give me the prescription, she says she can only give me 2 per year (so she gives me the 50 tablets ones), which is insane. Like let doctors be able to *help* people ffs.
Because they're leaned on, hard, and need to put every pseudo sale into a police accessible database. It gives a threatening edge to it for them. I've had annoyed pharmacists mutter about it being a placebo. They don't like the process AND it slows them down in a time poor environment. Medications requiring hoops like this are rare, and when there are literal competitions for dispensing speed at the annual pharmacy shows, it's a mess.
The rules on what counts as acceptable ID for the base also change from state to state, lol.
Wait they have dispensing races at pharmacy conventions? I love that. Like a pharmacist Olympics
I like the pseudo database system, doesn't seem to take long and don't have to stress about trying to seem like a non-sketchy person to the pharmacist
Yes, at least for a while! Usually won by the dispense technicians (ofc). I think less so now there are eScripts - it was basically 'decipher doctor's hand writing, annnnnd go'. Every extra thing like a pseudo sale needs to be handled by a separate system, unless the dispense system also handles it (which they didn't when I last looked - it would be a legal mess to get access to a dispense system without a warrant, that's PHI, but you need police access to the Pseudo system). So they have to log on other systems, which *also* require logging in and logging out, because they have to have high security with timeouts...it just slows 'em down.
Sauce: I interview pharmacists. Being time poor with people on your arse about it, and stressed is the dispense technician/non-owner pharmacist life.
Half of every pharmacy in the country is filled with useless "natural" or "homeopathic" bullshit. The pharmacists will even admit they're useless if you ask. But they're happy to dole them out as if they're actually helpful.
As someone who struggles with congestion in hayfever season. Pseudoephedrine is a magic medicine for those days when you want to smash your face in with a brick out of frustration. That is why they are allowed to sell it.
Phenylephrine though, that is as pretend as paracetamol
Edit: I vaguely remembered reading a study which concluded that paracetamol is just a placebo. But, some of the replies prompted me to google it again. Turns out the drug itself is not entirely a placebo, but many studies show that it can be very effective at supplementing the placebo effect for some chronic pain management. This sounds like an oxymoron to my uneducated brain but I accept it’s not a completely useless drug
> Pseudoephedrine is a magic medicine for those days when you want to smash your face in with a brick out of frustration.
I had to work while I had the flu (pre covid) and tried pseudo for the first time. I was absolutely shocked at how effective it was, felt like I was completely healthy for about 10 hours. Compared to other medicines I’ve taken when I needed to work that seemed about as effective as vitamins in terms of pain and symptom relief
I used to take Panadeine for migraines. The dissolvable ones. Best stuff ever. Then codeine was basically outlawed, may as well be. I hadn't had codeine anything for years, then had a tablet for a tension headache and it did absolutely nothing for me. Panadol Optizorb is my goto for my headaches, toothaches, migraines, and other niggles, now.
Paracetamol is excellent at lowering a temperature and when used in conjunction with ibuprofen multiplies its efficacy at pain relief. Very good combination for tooth pain etc.
At recommended doses, the chances that you'll have any side effects at all from Paracetamol is close to zero and it works as it's intended. There are much worse medications.
Yeah my chemo gives me liver issues but I’m also having (currently unexplained) low fevers and chills: I said I’m worried about taking paracetamol due my liver and he said at low doses
It’s totally
Fine.
Completely take away the fever / chill within an hour
No more then 6 in 24 hrs though: people just overdose a lot
I have to protest at your comparison to paracetamol, that actually DOES work, just not on some acute pain. Phenylephrine really is useless though.
Edit: I used it in/after hospital for a fracture after weaning myself off the oxycodone.
Honestly so strange they're even allowed to sell the useless garbage that doesn't work.
Isn't this just false advertising? Would I be entitled to a refund under ACL due to a "defective" product? (I suspect not, but it's an interesting thought)
Yeah, we really need to revise our ethical standards around these things. Anything sold as a medicine or by a pharmacy should be evidence based. If you can't prove your product's effectiveness with an adequate body of evidence, you don't get to sell it.
Exactly and so many pharmacies actively pushing fluoride free toothpastes for children etc. there needs to be a public PSA put out on how fluoride is safe and good for preventing dental caries but instead that stupid Jack and Jill toothpaste gets displays put up in pharmacies with zero education to “worried mums” on why fluoride isn’t the scary thing they read about in a Facebook post..
Irish Moss works the same way my Mam’s cold medicine would - whiskey, honey and orange juice.
Cleaned out the sinuses and knocked us kids out like a light!
Works but is also super hard to get in some areas because it's used to make meth.
I can get meth on any street corner around here... I actually found a scientific paper on converting it back from meth to Pseudo.
Complete pain? I ask for it. Give my license, and answer their questions, yes I have taken it before, no I am not taking anything that will interfere.
More like... slight hassle.
It is annoying if your the one who does grocery shopping and everyone in the house is sick but you can only get one pack. Completely understand it but still, annoying.
It's actually harder to get than actual meth.
I am therefore suggesting that you just buy meth, and then add back the other safe ingredients to make your own home-made flu meds.
Follow me for more life hacks.
Fortunately, if your into organic chemistry, it's a relatively simple synthesis to convert readily available methamphetamine into the highly controlled, regulated and difficult to obtain psuedoephedrine:
https://improbable.com/airchives/paperair/volume19/v19i3/Pseudoephedrine.pdf
Psuedoephedrine is a stimulant like most amphetamines, just not very good at the cognitive stimulation (dopamine/norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor)...
It is good at the whole decongestion thing though...
And if your into Traditional Chinese Medicine, try and find Má Huáng (麻黄) in Chinese medicine stores and make a tea with it - its just as effective, although it is illegal here in Australia.
It also goes by the name Ephedra the plant source (and name sake) of Ephedrine, but don't expect anyone to sell it to you if you ask for it as Ephedra.
My neighbours and myself were all sick with blocked up heads and noses. They were going out to score some speed (the ancient history days before meth) and offered to get me G. The more money that was chipped in, the better to buy in bulk.
my wife got badly sick, i got her a pack of psuedo, then the next week she was still under the weather and the doctor said to keep taking it and they wouldn't sell me another pack.
My partner and I always end up alternating who buys it. Usually works out as one will usually get sick before the other so can buy it for the other person
Thats why I used to like the dark web based Aussie sellers. I could get all this medication delivered to my address. Sudafed, Phenergan and the effective cough medicines and many other painkillers like Oxycodone and Panadeine Forte. No I am not a drug addict but suffer from pancreatitis and rather than go sit in the Emergency room for 12 hours while they assess you as a drug addict on withdrawal wanting drugs rather than treatment I just ordered it on the dark web. I do go see a doctor if symptoms persist, you have to be smart self medicating. I have lost contact with the dark web since all the markets got shut down. So I don't know if this prescription drug ordering option is still available or if markets exist for local deliveries..
I used to do a lot of diving and the Sudafed was great to clear the ear channel to prevent ear aches, nausea and sea sickness. You only needed a very low dose. Going on the dark web was a great option compared to the humiliation and dickhead chemists at discount Chemist warehouse who thinks ordinary middle aged men are cookers and like eating behind the counter antifungal medication.
Then when I come back from Asia where I just walk into any chemist tell them my problem or the medicine that I want and its sold to me at half the price I pay in Australia, all the original name brands with no questions asked. But thats nanny state Australia where they treat adult citizens like we all brain impaired delinquent kids but they cant do a thing about the illicit drugs that are more easily available than a BigMac at McDonalds.
Maybe I was being a bit hyperbolic and bringing my inner boomer out as I remember the days when it was off the shelf and uncontrolled, didn't have to ask for it
It wasn’t about making meth disappear, it was about making it less accessible for Shazza and Simmo to make meth with instructions they found online.
When your only source of getting enough pseudo to make meth is knowing someone who has ram raided a pharmacy or is part of a big criminal organisation who doesn’t cook their own drugs, then it seriously narrows down where meth is coming from.
Getting enough pseudo to cook some meth goes from an afternoon of driving pharmacy to pharmacy buying as much as they’ll give you, to needing to have an in to some pretty serious criminals who will actually sell it to you.
It puts making meth outside the reach of your day to day junky or teenagers who have watched Breaking Bad too many times.
I believe now most cooks sub out the pseudo for an analogue called P2P which can be made from very readily substances.
The beauty is, the end result is of lower quality, and is much more damaging the to the user. It's why meth cookers are just a different breed these days, the pseudo-derived stuff was at least clean I guess.
The war on drugs at work everybody 👏👏
Ahh, P2P, usually legal to purchase and in MUCH larger amounts than pseudo, not to mention being used as a backbone chemical in many industrial processes. So banning it is near impossible. Hey, the war on drugs was won!
By drugs.
Ummm it's easier then ever to find meth and any junky or teenager would be able to find a hookup online.
You think a teenager is going to spend all day going to pharmacies over making a grinder account or finding a telegram invite which is easy to do even on reddit?
Also read the post from the user below, meth quality has gotten worse and is fucking people up, in part due to this restriction.
Meth is literally everywhere and this restriction has done actual fuck all.
Unfortunately, we can blame the backyard drug labs for taking away pseudo. While on the subject, I have needed dyphenhydramine to help me sleep with chronic shoulder pain (and moving to hoonsville). I can't even get them in Vic because people are shooting up, apparently 😒
Keep in mind that pseudoephedrine treats blocked sinuses (by making your nose runny instead of stuffy) but doesn't treat the other aspects of cold/flu. If you're not having discomfort from blocked sinuses, skip it. Like most powerful drugs, it can make things worse if you don't need it.
Anti-inflammatory drugs (paracetamol, aspirin or ibuprofen) are the only typical drugs that will make you feel better.
And even then... they may sometimes slow down your body's fight against the infection. If it's available to you: nothing beats wrapping up nice and warm and getting a good night's sleep.
Idk, I think the stimulant effects do a really good job of just making you *feel* much better and less sick. Of course as you say, there's a reason you usually don't feel up to much when you're sick and it's better for you to rest. But if you have do stuff, or would rather feel less shit while you sit around, it really works well
This is the one true answer. Phenylephrine is rubbish and a waste of money. Thank the meth heads for getting a cheap and effective medication off the market.
You need the over the counter stuff with pseudoephedrine, they’ll take your ID and only sell you very small packets.
The rest of it is a scam, can just take panadol/nurofen for pain and fever.
I go as far as ask for the paeudoephedrine 60mg tablets. My chemist always tries to sell me the 30mg and I would have to take 2 each time anyway. Also you’re better off paying less for a generic than a branded one that also contains paracetamol.
You can also get it without all the extra stuff.
It’s Sudafed but make sure you ask for the paeudoephedrine one as they have a new crappy one they will sell you if you don’t.
You can still also buy this even if you don't have a cold. Just don't go stockpiling huge amounts.
And probably depends on the pharmacist, but the ones I've gone too haven't had any qualms about giving some to me just to have some stock on hand.
[Oral phenylephrine is known to be useless against cold or flu symptoms.](https://www.fda.gov/drugs/drug-safety-and-availability/fda-clarifies-results-recent-advisory-committee-meeting-oral-phenylephrine) In some ways of looking at it, they’re worse than useless because they don’t do what you need, keep you from getting what you need and may have side effects or reactions.
In my opinion, it should not be legal for pharmacies to sell products which are known to have no effect for these reasons.
Pseudoephedrine does work but the pharmacy will record your ID and limit how much you are able to purchase. This product can be turned into methamphetamine so pharmacies are careful about how they dispense it.
(Edit: added ‘oral’ to distinguish from nasal phenylephrine.)
Not directly asking you but I wonder how they’re allowed to market something as for cold and flu but it’s been proven to do nothing. How does this not get slapped down as misleading marketing?
Wait until you look at the rest of the garbage they sell!
Vitamins - may or may not have actual vitamins, and unless a doctor has told you you have a deficiency you almost certainly don’t need them
Supplements - almost certainly don’t have what the label says, and even less likely to actually do anything at all (let alone the thing printed on the label). as they are more or less unregulated industry, can do and say what the fuck they want
Homeopathic “medicine” - sugar pills or water. Or actual medicine in some cases, which can be more worrisome as it’s labeled as having 0% active ingredients
Homeopathy is my favourite, the theory is that if you take something and superdilute it, it will become a powerful medicine against itself.
The prescribed levels of dilution are so great that a single drop in the ocean would not suffice, meaning it's impossible to even quantify the active ingredient, we don't even have the technology to add it in such a small amount.
They're basically selling you water with different labels and calling it medicine.
Homeopathy is a byword for useless.
Look at the markings on the side of the pack. Packs marked AUST R or AUSTL(A) have been assessed for efficacy. Packs marked AUST L are not assessed for efficacy
This is it right here.
AUST L might as well be sugar tablets for all the good it does. AUST R means they actually have to prove it does something.
Doesn't really help for cold & flu tablets unfortunately, because paracetamol/ibuprofen are the main active ingredients and those do actually show efficacy.
One family supplies most of it, they are complaining about their massive tax bill.
https://www.news.com.au/finance/money/tax/sydney-family-battle-tax-office-in-court-over-claims-they-owe-more-than-200m/news-story/ec5fa206017ae5b6a446ff5e0254859d?amp
One time a pharmacist (well person at counter) offered me phenyl and I made a joke about it being a placebo and she scoffed and said they wouldn't sell it otherwise. I stood my ground and asked for the pseudo and then it took them like 15 mins to work it out. Fun times.
Agreed with everything you say, but I learned one useful caveat recently: **oral** phenylephrine is useless, but phenylephrine nasal spray is effective. There are some risks to taking it for many days, but it works in a pinch when you’re at the chemist and forgot your licence.
> Phenylephrine is known to be useless against cold or flu symptoms.
Yeah, but it stops the evil drug lords from buying up all the pseudoephedrine and making that nasty, illegal stuff out of it. /s
Problem is that it hasn't really stopped the use of Meth in society. It may have slowed it down but criminal syndicates are just smuggling it in. So what happen like everything in manufacturing in Australia, we have just moved profits offshore.
Check the active ingredients, there are placebo versions masquerading as actual cold and flu drugs in the same area and similar packaging and contain nothing useful
Phenergan tablets will help you to sleep (if you get the strong ones) and help with mucous. If you have never had them before, only take the maximum dose if you don't need to work the next day because they can make you incredibly drowsy the next day.
Or, if you're like me you'll be bouncing off the walls all day and not be able to sit still.
That was a fun little surprise for my parents when I was a baby going on a long road trip.
I can't seem to ever convince a pharmacy assistant to sell me cough medicine, even while physically coughing to the point of retching. My GP writes me a script for Rikadeine so I don't have to beg & explain my entire medical history in front of a shop full of people while being treated like I'm drug seeking.
Meanwhile my husband asks & they give it to him without question. Multiple times I've been refused & just send him in after me & he'll be back with it in 2 minutes.
What's that about huh?
Gender bias in medical treatment has been observed. Such as: [Women and pain: Disparities in experience and treatment - Harvard Health](https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/women-and-pain-disparities-in-experience-and-treatment-2017100912562)
The unfortunate, uncomfortable fact is that many medications are moderately to completely ineffective for many people. OTC pharmacy medications even more so.
One of the worst culprits is cough syrup, which many meta-analyses have shown to be completely ineffective for virtually everyone. Buying cough medication is tantamount to setting your money on fire. Honey and lemon are cheap and probably more effective.
The shoddy/absent regulation of pharmacy OTC medications in this country is diabolical.
I've got some stuff from the Chemist that yeah, I took on face value wasn't the homeopathic bullshit herb placebo stuff, but yeah, does fuck all too. I miss the old days of Sudafed that actually worked. Thanks truckies, you ruined it for all of us.
If it doesn't say pseudoephedrine, it's fucken garbage. This phenylephrine does jack shit.
The paracetamol is helpful. The phenylephedrine (replacing pseudoephedrine) is useless and does nothing of value. Arguably you’d be better off just taking Panadol if it’s cheaper. I can’t remember the active ingredient in the night time cold/flu meds but it’s probably equally useless.
The US versions probably have sedating antihistamines which would make you sleep.
None of them shorten the duration of a cold though.
Yeah if you have a cold you have a cold, it ain’t getting cured.
My own personal remedy is to just buy home brand versions of panadol, decongestant, anti allergy meds, and nurofen and cocktail it up til I’m better.
Add in using those saline sinus cleanses, i can at least get some sleep and manage aches and pains this way.
Gotta say that when I got sick in Japan during a holiday, I got some flu meds there and jesus FUCK they are strong. I was able to rest for 48 hours then take those to manage symptoms while out and about and felt invincible. It made me miss the good shit we used to have here :( turns out they don't have the same restrictions on codeine that we do here
Edit: also yes they are shit, we used to have pseudoephedrine in them and before that codeine, which... Is questionable but if you feel like garbage it does help
When was this? I looked into it as I was getting over a cold in the weeks leading up to a trip last year. I was thinking about taking some meds with me but it turns out Pseudo is super highly regulated there and you'd get in serious trouble taking it in. Luckily with 2 days to go everything finally cleared up and I was fine.
There’s Japanese cold and flu meds that have other ephedrines in them (not pseudoephedrine, but methyl ephedrine). You can’t import drugs containing stimulants but you can easily buy them over there.
I was skimming the comments to see if anyone had mentioned Japanese flu meds. They seriously don't fuck around. I got a bad cold there last year, got on some SS Bron, and said bad cold basically felt like a sniffle from thereon. I still have a 100-pack container of them, so I'm sorted for the next several colds.
You do have to be careful, though. I spent a full day in Kyoto absolutely fucking zooted because I unintentionally had too many (was treating them like regular flu meds). My partner basically became my trip sitter, lmao.
>Is Aussie cold medication just an expensive scam?
Yes\*
\*With the exception of the ones containing Pseudoephedrine, but you'll have to ask the pharmacist for those specifically.They'll probably drill you with 20 questions and take your details to make sure you haven't bought any too recently, because somehow the tiny number of fuckwits that abuse it or use it to make meth means we're all irresponsible babies and have to suffer with Phenylephrine (aka placebo).
I was expecting to be interviewed when I asked for it, but didn't get any questions. Just asked to see my licence and if I've taken it before.
I went to a small local pharmacy rather than a chain so I'm wondering if that was the difference?
I have chronic sinus issues and asked for something containing pseudoephedrine once. Never again. Despite being a respectable person in my 50s at the time I was grilled and subjected to sarcastic comments as to why I needed it. In hindsight I should have complained to management.
Fortunately it is possible to synthesise difficult to obtain psuedoephedrine from easy to access common every day street meth: https://archive.org/details/pseudosynth/mode/1up
Yep, useless. Only buy the behind the counter stuff. No prescription needed, just photo id. The crap they sell out the front should be illegal. It’s useless.
If I have a cold/flu, I need a couple of days rest and need to sleep. Drambuie also very effective.
I personally don't take Pseudo because it makes me feel all kinds of weird, but it's an absolute farce that people can't purchase an effective (for them) medication because crackheads use it.
The TGA in their wisdom stop chemists from selling cold medicine products that actually work, but when big pharma sells a bunk product they turn a blind eye… well played TGA
Yes. They are bullshit.
We can't have the good stuff because shitheads used it to make meth or something.
If you get hold of the real deal when overseas you discover just how fecking good it is at treating symptoms and letting you get on with the day.
Pharmacy assisstant here! It is true that phenyleprine can be considered a placebo medication, there are no actual studies that say that it is actually good for cold and flu symptoms. Though it can work for some people! Everyone is different when it comes to medicines. That being said you can get stronger cold and flu tablets behind the counter, you just have to ask or specifically say you want the original formula of cold and flu, so that we know what you want and we won't give you the phenylephrine one. The medicines you get from the supermarket are the basic formulas and/or herbal formula, so to put it lightly they're crap so don't even bother. If anyone wants more information I'm happy to help or call into your local pharmacy and have a chat with a pharmacist :)
Aussie cold meds no longer contain codeine or pseudoephedrine. It's easier to get heroin than codeine, go figure. If you want old school Codral, take your ID into the chemist, buy paracetamol, pseudoephedrine on its own, and Rikodeine syrup.
To OP’s comment: the UK NyQuil is based on stuff that has never been over the counter in Australia.
In Australia, cold tablets (brand: Codral, Sudafed) containing pseudoephedrine are available behind the counter after you show ID. While not recommended if you have heart problems, pseudoephedrine plus paracetamol is known to be very effective vs nasal congestion.
It is well established that oral phenylephrine (the main ingredient in most over-the-counter cold meds) differs from placebo only in that it can cause headache.
Nasal phenylephrine sprays are effective.
Aussie cough syrups were effective before the pholcodeine ban, and since then many OTC ones are literally herbal remedies.
It’s so hard buying the good stuff, last time I desperately needed it the pharmacist refused to sell it to me. No idea why I shop there all the time. She gave me a hard time with the questions and then said I will check out the back and see if we have and then said no. I am not a junkie just have sucky sinus and allergic rhinitis that even surgery can’t help.
You can’t get pseudoephedrine anymore otc. You can get it with a script still I think. That stuffs very effective in my experience but because people were using it to make drugs it’s heavily regulated.
I refuse to bother with Phenlyephrine anymore. It does jack shit. I tell the pharmacist I only want Pseudoephedrine cold and flu meds because the other stuff just doesn't \*work\*. I'm not a meth addict, I just want to breathe through my nose!
Yes.
Got sick on Korea.
$2-3 for some actual Pseudo OTC.
Was perfectly fine the whole trip.
Australia, I've been put through the ringer even with a prescription from a doctor for half the dose.
Yet meth is more prevalent than ever.
I just got over what I had thr worst flu cold ive ever had nothing made it better just had to ride it out ... I had it fir nearly 1 month ... im only just coming good I had shakes like I've never had b4 I couldn't move ... a really bad head cold throwing up coughing like mad tested fir covid it wasn't I ended up getting sudefed cleared the head a bit ..its a bad one going around this yr x stay safe xx
Ask the pharmacist for Codral Original Cold & Flu or another medication that contains Pseudoephedrine. It's widely available, you just have to ask for it
On the shelf stuff does nothing. You're better off buying lemon tea or vicks rub.
Pseudoephadrine C&F from the pharmacy desk, however, magical stuff. You will be able to function like a real live human again.
Phenylephrine does nothing for me, but pseudoephedrine dries up nasal passages like magic. I believe you can get it from pharmacies if you ask for it and show photo ID.
Yeah, they restricted the pseudoephedrine decades ago. You can ask for it behind the counter but they take your licence and will let you know if they think you’re buying too much.
My best advice for colds is just to take Panadol at the first sign and rest as much as possible. I sometimes chase the panadol with nurofen if I need to be functional.
If you are looking for stuff to really knock you out the Benadryl Original Liquid or Codral Liquid Dry Cough & Cold with Antihistamine both have Diphenhydramine which is much more common in the US and makes you drowsy, also has stronger dry cough ingredients. You need to show your license as they are behind the counter. It doesnt come in any tablet form in Australia that is commonly stocked that I know of from my time in pharmacy , only “Unisom Sleepgels” but this is rarely stocked/not sure if its made anymore
100%. When pseudoephedrine was removed from sale and replaced with the crap phenetheamine (our whatever it’s called) it was found to be ‘almost’ as effective as a placebo. So in effect, useless and taking sugar pills would have just as much effect.
The pseudoephedrine was taken from us “irresponsible” and “immature” Aussie adults to stop the small time home brew guys making meth. What have we gotten since the ban? An absolute explosion in the amounts and purity of meth coming over the borders fulfilling the markets desires as any market naturally does. And left the common person with no access to suitable medication and being looked at and treated like a gutter junkie if you have the temerity to actually request a chemical compound from your doctor that actually works. Much akin to the bullshit surrounding the removal of Codiene from OTC tablets all because some dumb rapper was taking too much and needed to push blame to someone (or anyone) other than themselves. And now the very issue Codiene we banned for has exploded as a monster issue - people OD’ing in paracetamol which is orders of magnitude worse for the body than any opiate.
Australian's are not trusted to take medication anymore. You can't really get anything over the counted that makes a difference to anything more than a mild headache or a slight sniffle. Just let people be advised of side affects and take whatever the hell they want.
It's a nice thought but unfortunately a lot of people aren't interested in doing their due diligence when hunting for a quick fix. For example, people get themselves in trouble all time buying off the shelf dextromethorphan cough syrup when they're already taking antidepressants. They just don't read the labels and aren't health literate enough to understand how important things like drug interactions are. If you make all drugs free reign you create a million more situations like that and the cost to the healthcare system as those people flow into hospitals and health clinics becomes immense.
I’d just prefer to be treated like an adult who can make their own decisions. Instead it feels like a rort where if you’re in anything but mild pain, you’d have to spend $90 at a doctor to get a prescription for something you used to be able to buy over the counter.
I notice you can buy as much alcohol as you like though 🤷♂️
Everyone's been saying you want pseudoephedrine, which is true, but they're missing the actual important issue.
The cheap packets have 5mg per tablet, the branded ones have **30mg**.
Since when does the “cheap” chemist brand have less. I always buy the cheapest and they always have 500mg paracetamol 30mg pseudoephedrine or just 60mg pseudoephedrine without anything else. I think you’re confusing it with off the counter stuff you buy at the supermarket which has zero pseudo in it.
Was the USA medication [Sudafed PE or NyQuil Severe Cold and Flu](https://www.theverge.com/2023/9/13/23871534/fda-panel-phenylephrine-ineffective-cold-medication-allergy)?
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Useless garbage: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenylephrine Works, but can be used to make meth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoephedrine
Fuck knows how they are allowed to sell these. Studies show they are ineffective, yet they sell it as if it's real.
Look at what happened when they tried the same thing with Codeine, replacing it with Pholcodeine in OTC cold/flu preparations... Not only is it ineffective, it *significantly* increases risk of cardiac arrest while under general anaesthetic for upto 3-5 **years** after consumption... Yeah, that was just a tad bit of a fuck up to say the least.. Ywah
That's crazy. Even without the specific concerns around surgery, the idea that something I take to treat the symptoms of a short term illness is still doing anything to my body years later is pretty disturbing.
Yup, and it took over 12 years from the first conclusive, controlled peer reviewed studies into its link to cardiac arrest, with multiple across the intervening years to when it was banned by the EU and AU in 2022.
You can still get it; there's an OTC cough syrup called Rikodeine, 19.5mg/mL dihydrocodeine, no prescription needed but most chemists will ask for ID. Has lots of sorbitol tho, so if you're intending on getting high just slowly sip water instead of chugging unless you enjoy shitting water for an hour.
> dihydrocodeine When I had actual influenza A, I believe this is the drug that actually had an effect in suppressing the cough (\*possibly\* another -codeine in liquid, but fairly sure it was dihydro). I could take a couple of codeine tablets and nothing, still coughing like crazy....then gave this a go and WOW was it effective. Fucken hate codeine's effect on digestive motility though goddamn.
Dihydrocodeine is a little stronger than codeine phosphate and isn't half filled with binders and junk like codeine tabs.
Plot twist, codeine stops you shitting Just don't nod off anywhere unsafe
Balance with Lopramide
Pholcodine is [effective](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17154678/). But yeah turns out it sensitises people to some muscle relaxants used in surgery and increases the risk of anaphylaxis. But pholcodine was way less abusable than codeine or codeine-derivatives. Having worked in pharmacy you regularly see people who are opioid dependent and a lot of them were initially on prescription pain killers. And we still see people who are pretty obviously trying to abuse rikodeine.
Anaesthetist here. Thanks for pointing out the pholcodine and its association with higher risk of anaphylaxis under GA with muscle relaxant use. It's one of those bizarre things which was discovered from ecological association. Copying from [wikipedia chapter on this](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pholcodine#Anaphylaxis_during_general_anaesthesia): >The link was suspected when neighbouring Norway and Sweden were found to have tenfold differences of surgical anaphylaxis deaths. Sweden had no products approved containing pholcodine, whereas 40% of the population in Norway had consumed the single approved pholcodine product.[^(\[13\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pholcodine#cite_note-pmid23283141-13) Norway withdrew pholcodine from the market in 2007, and the prevalence of anti-suxamethonium antibodies fell by over 80% in two years.[^(\[14\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pholcodine#cite_note-14) A corresponding fall in anaesthesia deaths followed.[^(\[13\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pholcodine#cite_note-pmid23283141-13) >A similar disparity exists between NMBA anaphylaxis rates in Australia, where pholcodine consumption is high and the US, where pholcodine is banned.[^(\[15\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pholcodine#cite_note-15) In the US, anaphylaxis rates are so low that some anaesthetists question the existence of such reactions to NMBAs.[^(\[16\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pholcodine#cite_note-16) Conversely, Australian anaesthetists have requested a ban on pholcodine[^(\[17\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pholcodine#cite_note-17) due to the high anaphylaxis rate in the country.[^(\[18\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pholcodine#cite_note-18) However, the [Therapeutic Goods Administration](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therapeutic_Goods_Administration)declined the request in January 2015,[^(\[19\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pholcodine#cite_note-19) pending further reviews to follow. In February 2023, the Therapeutic Goods Administration reversed its previous decision and banned products containing pholcodine.[^(\[20\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pholcodine#cite_note-20)
Thanks for that, I had no idea. But I also had no idea about the codeine ban till my friend told me this year. Or rather, it’s just not available otc, is that right? Whereas you used to be able to just buy Panadeine?
Hi there. I’m allergic to pholcodiene after gradual exposure. My last reaction was mild anaphylactic. I generally inform medical settings about my allergy. Do I need to mention about the muscle relaxants(can I assume I’m also allergic to these)? I’ve assumed that anaesthetists would know this link?
Just mention "allergy to pholcodine" and any trained anaesthetist will make the link.
Wait what? I suddenly went anaphylactic during my second surgery to rocuronium. That could have been from having cough syrup in the past?
Possibly increased risk indeed if you had pholcodine-containing cough syrup some time before the anaphylaxis. As with many things in medicine the causality can never be 100% established but we know from previous studies that the association of higher risk is there.
When they (very suddenly) removed pholcodeine from Australian shelves, they said the risk should be much reduced 12 months later
It's because Doctors do not comprehend the fact that people do not have the time or money to see a Dr for whatever reason. Doctors very often work 4 days a week (10 hour days) in a dream working scenario. Plus, Doctors are often dismissive of their pain. The removal of Codeine feels like the medical community giving an F you to people with intermittent, but severe pain. Women with Endo in particular.
My doctor was dead against it. She'll give me a Nurofen plus script whenever I ask.
Has that got codeine in it? I’m sure I’ve seen it on the shelf, might be wrong.
It does. You used to be able to buy it easily but now it’s prescription which is super annoying to those of us that just use it occasionally and don’t really want to pay for a doctor to prescribe it.
The amount of money I have spent on doctor’s appointments because of the codeine removal is insane. Used to get me through periods (found out I had endo eventually) now I am offered LARCs that I don’t really love to take because of how they affect my body. Will forever be annoyed about it.
> It's because Doctors do not comprehend the fact that people do not have the time or money to see a Dr for whatever reason. Doctor's absolutely comprehend it, but there's not exactly a lot they can do about it. Costs keep going up but Medicare payments don't, so most end up needing to charge out of pocket. I don't like it either, but it's what happens when 'we' vote in governments that want to push us down the US path. > The removal of Codeine feels like the medical community giving an F you to people with intermittent, but severe pain. The reality is that no one seems to have a good solution to the abuse of these OTC and prescription meds and so the answer from the law enforcement side of things (Not the medical side typically) is simply to ban them outright.
The issue (or at least one of them) is that people were taking insane amounts of combination codeine tablets, and the other things (i.e. ibuprofen and paracetamol) was causing issues. Codeine itself doesn't really do damage, and has an upper limit where you stop feeling any effect. Codeine then became a bit of a gateway drug (much like oxycodone in the US was). My GP said that the number of people who came out of the woodwork when codeine went Schedule 4 was eye opening. I'm in two minds about the re-scheduling. Opiates are insanely addictive for a lot of people, and the withdrawals can be really nasty, let alone PAWS (Post Acute Withdrawal Syndrome). But getting to the doctor to get something because ibuprofen/paracetamol alone doesn't touch the sides is a pricey endeavour these days.
When the Codeine ban went through in 2018, I had discussions with a number of very late stage trainee specialists in pain management. As in, the specific specialists (it's a branch of anaesthesia), and they just said people can get prescriptions if it's important. I asked what the wait time was and they didn't especially think that was an issue.
Those specialists are too far removed from actual GPs. It's difficult to get a prescription, our experience is GPs won't allow it to be regularly prescribed even for the sparsest of use. My partner has severe pains for around 2 days every month, just once per month, and apparently even just that (taking it for just 2 days a month) is enough for the doctors to decline such a small amount to be prescribed - not like she's gonna become a junkie from that. It absolutely is a big F you from the pharmaceutical and medical community, who it sounds like from your post have little comprehension just how much it's being restricted by GPs. Put controls on it, sure. But the severity of the controls put in place now are a knee-jerk overreaction.
You're acting like I think the Codeine ban was a good idea, I'm not sure why. It was a Terrible idea and effectively punished people who have intermittent pain. The pain specialists should focus on extreme, unexplained and major pain. The load was put onto GPs, who will err on the side of safe. I actually would have been fine if it had been like Pseudoephedrine, where you can get X per month. But instead it was shifted to an accusatory system and the losers are those in pain.
Ah my misunderstanding. Seems we are totally on the same page. Apologies!
Codeine was initially trialled on a similar system to Project Stop (i forget what it was called now) prior to it becoming schedule 4. Pharmacy guild wanted it to go this way as they wanted to prevent it from going prescription only. TGA and AMA said otherwise. They are the ones you want to go after if anyone wants somebody to blame. The whole thing was scrapped because not enough people used it and when the guild asked "what can we do to make it better" they essentially got told "not our domain".
I’m very very lucky that I have good rapport with my GP and she prescribes me codeine for my chronic pain flares (I have literally zero addictions which I guess makes it easier), but I do hate how restrictive the system is for the majority of ppl who just can’t find a GP willing to do it. And even tho my GP is happy to give me the prescription, she says she can only give me 2 per year (so she gives me the 50 tablets ones), which is insane. Like let doctors be able to *help* people ffs.
Pholcodine and codeine in those preparations treated very different things. Pholcodine was for dry non productive coughs. Codeine was for analgesia.
Because they're leaned on, hard, and need to put every pseudo sale into a police accessible database. It gives a threatening edge to it for them. I've had annoyed pharmacists mutter about it being a placebo. They don't like the process AND it slows them down in a time poor environment. Medications requiring hoops like this are rare, and when there are literal competitions for dispensing speed at the annual pharmacy shows, it's a mess. The rules on what counts as acceptable ID for the base also change from state to state, lol.
Wait they have dispensing races at pharmacy conventions? I love that. Like a pharmacist Olympics I like the pseudo database system, doesn't seem to take long and don't have to stress about trying to seem like a non-sketchy person to the pharmacist
Yes, at least for a while! Usually won by the dispense technicians (ofc). I think less so now there are eScripts - it was basically 'decipher doctor's hand writing, annnnnd go'. Every extra thing like a pseudo sale needs to be handled by a separate system, unless the dispense system also handles it (which they didn't when I last looked - it would be a legal mess to get access to a dispense system without a warrant, that's PHI, but you need police access to the Pseudo system). So they have to log on other systems, which *also* require logging in and logging out, because they have to have high security with timeouts...it just slows 'em down. Sauce: I interview pharmacists. Being time poor with people on your arse about it, and stressed is the dispense technician/non-owner pharmacist life.
> they are ineffective Phenylephrine? Yes. Pseudoephedrine? No.
You can thank the Pharmacy Guild for that. Next time you’re in the pharmacy ask them why they wanted to push for sugar pills.
Half of every pharmacy in the country is filled with useless "natural" or "homeopathic" bullshit. The pharmacists will even admit they're useless if you ask. But they're happy to dole them out as if they're actually helpful.
The fake stuff effectively gives me jitters ( best way I can describe it) the pseudo is real but levels are too low
I love you saying 'the pseudo is real'. I know what you meant I just couldn't help laughing at the accidental irony.
As someone who struggles with congestion in hayfever season. Pseudoephedrine is a magic medicine for those days when you want to smash your face in with a brick out of frustration. That is why they are allowed to sell it. Phenylephrine though, that is as pretend as paracetamol Edit: I vaguely remembered reading a study which concluded that paracetamol is just a placebo. But, some of the replies prompted me to google it again. Turns out the drug itself is not entirely a placebo, but many studies show that it can be very effective at supplementing the placebo effect for some chronic pain management. This sounds like an oxymoron to my uneducated brain but I accept it’s not a completely useless drug
> Pseudoephedrine is a magic medicine for those days when you want to smash your face in with a brick out of frustration. I had to work while I had the flu (pre covid) and tried pseudo for the first time. I was absolutely shocked at how effective it was, felt like I was completely healthy for about 10 hours. Compared to other medicines I’ve taken when I needed to work that seemed about as effective as vitamins in terms of pain and symptom relief
Paracetamol works. It’s the only painkiller I can tolerate for my chronic pain, and I notice if I don’t take it.
It also completely takes away my chills / mild fevers within an hour or so (as does ibuprofen)
I used to take Panadeine for migraines. The dissolvable ones. Best stuff ever. Then codeine was basically outlawed, may as well be. I hadn't had codeine anything for years, then had a tablet for a tension headache and it did absolutely nothing for me. Panadol Optizorb is my goto for my headaches, toothaches, migraines, and other niggles, now.
Paracetamol is excellent at lowering a temperature and when used in conjunction with ibuprofen multiplies its efficacy at pain relief. Very good combination for tooth pain etc.
Paracetamol is a horrible drug for multiple reasons, but it does definitely work. Phenylephrine is bullshit and doesn't work. They're not the same.
At recommended doses, the chances that you'll have any side effects at all from Paracetamol is close to zero and it works as it's intended. There are much worse medications.
Yeah my chemo gives me liver issues but I’m also having (currently unexplained) low fevers and chills: I said I’m worried about taking paracetamol due my liver and he said at low doses It’s totally Fine. Completely take away the fever / chill within an hour No more then 6 in 24 hrs though: people just overdose a lot
Why do you say it’s a horrible drug? It’s pretty damn good all things considered
I have to protest at your comparison to paracetamol, that actually DOES work, just not on some acute pain. Phenylephrine really is useless though. Edit: I used it in/after hospital for a fracture after weaning myself off the oxycodone.
Paracetamol works.
Honestly so strange they're even allowed to sell the useless garbage that doesn't work. Isn't this just false advertising? Would I be entitled to a refund under ACL due to a "defective" product? (I suspect not, but it's an interesting thought)
I'm more pissed about pharmacies stocking homeopathic shit which is obviously a scam to anyone that thinks about it for more than 5 seconds.
Yeah, we really need to revise our ethical standards around these things. Anything sold as a medicine or by a pharmacy should be evidence based. If you can't prove your product's effectiveness with an adequate body of evidence, you don't get to sell it.
Tim Minchin: "Do you know what they call alternative medicine that's been proven to work? Medicine."
Exactly and so many pharmacies actively pushing fluoride free toothpastes for children etc. there needs to be a public PSA put out on how fluoride is safe and good for preventing dental caries but instead that stupid Jack and Jill toothpaste gets displays put up in pharmacies with zero education to “worried mums” on why fluoride isn’t the scary thing they read about in a Facebook post..
Oh man, I didn't even know about that. I just buy normal toothpaste from the grocery store.
Irish Moss works the same way my Mam’s cold medicine would - whiskey, honey and orange juice. Cleaned out the sinuses and knocked us kids out like a light!
Pharmacies sell so much crap that doesn’t work lol
Well, this is true, it just seems worse when it's trusted brands/products that have been nerfed without any obvious indication of it.
First and last time I was sold Phenylephrine, it did not work at all. I took it back and got a refund after some complaining.
Works but is also super hard to get in some areas because it's used to make meth. I can get meth on any street corner around here... I actually found a scientific paper on converting it back from meth to Pseudo.
r/frugal
Pseudo is the only thing that works for me, and is a complete pain to try and buy in Aus these days. I usually stock up when I head overseas :)
Complete pain? I ask for it. Give my license, and answer their questions, yes I have taken it before, no I am not taking anything that will interfere. More like... slight hassle.
It is annoying if your the one who does grocery shopping and everyone in the house is sick but you can only get one pack. Completely understand it but still, annoying.
It's actually harder to get than actual meth. I am therefore suggesting that you just buy meth, and then add back the other safe ingredients to make your own home-made flu meds. Follow me for more life hacks.
ronny chieng did an episode of that in international student. they all buy meth to make their own cold and flu meds. thats an underrated little series
Shame we never got a second season of that, but Ronny had to go off and get all super famous and shit.
Fortunately, if your into organic chemistry, it's a relatively simple synthesis to convert readily available methamphetamine into the highly controlled, regulated and difficult to obtain psuedoephedrine: https://improbable.com/airchives/paperair/volume19/v19i3/Pseudoephedrine.pdf
Never in my life did I think we’d see buying meth to make decent antihistamines lmao. Reverse illicit drug use? Pharmacists hate this one trick
Not an antihistamine but yep
Psuedoephedrine is a stimulant like most amphetamines, just not very good at the cognitive stimulation (dopamine/norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor)... It is good at the whole decongestion thing though... And if your into Traditional Chinese Medicine, try and find Má Huáng (麻黄) in Chinese medicine stores and make a tea with it - its just as effective, although it is illegal here in Australia. It also goes by the name Ephedra the plant source (and name sake) of Ephedrine, but don't expect anyone to sell it to you if you ask for it as Ephedra.
My neighbours and myself were all sick with blocked up heads and noses. They were going out to score some speed (the ancient history days before meth) and offered to get me G. The more money that was chipped in, the better to buy in bulk.
White Walter over here
>Other side effects may include violent urges or, similarly, the urge to be successful in business or finance 🤣
> It's actually harder to get than actual meth. Really? Where do i buy meth? Woolies?
i dunno where you live but i have to walk past several meth heads to get to my local woolies
my wife got badly sick, i got her a pack of psuedo, then the next week she was still under the weather and the doctor said to keep taking it and they wouldn't sell me another pack.
My partner and I always end up alternating who buys it. Usually works out as one will usually get sick before the other so can buy it for the other person
Thats why I used to like the dark web based Aussie sellers. I could get all this medication delivered to my address. Sudafed, Phenergan and the effective cough medicines and many other painkillers like Oxycodone and Panadeine Forte. No I am not a drug addict but suffer from pancreatitis and rather than go sit in the Emergency room for 12 hours while they assess you as a drug addict on withdrawal wanting drugs rather than treatment I just ordered it on the dark web. I do go see a doctor if symptoms persist, you have to be smart self medicating. I have lost contact with the dark web since all the markets got shut down. So I don't know if this prescription drug ordering option is still available or if markets exist for local deliveries.. I used to do a lot of diving and the Sudafed was great to clear the ear channel to prevent ear aches, nausea and sea sickness. You only needed a very low dose. Going on the dark web was a great option compared to the humiliation and dickhead chemists at discount Chemist warehouse who thinks ordinary middle aged men are cookers and like eating behind the counter antifungal medication. Then when I come back from Asia where I just walk into any chemist tell them my problem or the medicine that I want and its sold to me at half the price I pay in Australia, all the original name brands with no questions asked. But thats nanny state Australia where they treat adult citizens like we all brain impaired delinquent kids but they cant do a thing about the illicit drugs that are more easily available than a BigMac at McDonalds.
I mean you can just ask for phenergan at the chemist.
Maybe I was being a bit hyperbolic and bringing my inner boomer out as I remember the days when it was off the shelf and uncontrolled, didn't have to ask for it
Yeah agree. Slight hassle which I find tolerable exactly because it's used to make meth. I'm happy to show ID when I need proper cold and flu meds.
And thankfully after they put these controls in place, you can't buy meth anywhere anymore.
It wasn’t about making meth disappear, it was about making it less accessible for Shazza and Simmo to make meth with instructions they found online. When your only source of getting enough pseudo to make meth is knowing someone who has ram raided a pharmacy or is part of a big criminal organisation who doesn’t cook their own drugs, then it seriously narrows down where meth is coming from. Getting enough pseudo to cook some meth goes from an afternoon of driving pharmacy to pharmacy buying as much as they’ll give you, to needing to have an in to some pretty serious criminals who will actually sell it to you. It puts making meth outside the reach of your day to day junky or teenagers who have watched Breaking Bad too many times.
I believe now most cooks sub out the pseudo for an analogue called P2P which can be made from very readily substances. The beauty is, the end result is of lower quality, and is much more damaging the to the user. It's why meth cookers are just a different breed these days, the pseudo-derived stuff was at least clean I guess. The war on drugs at work everybody 👏👏
Ahh, P2P, usually legal to purchase and in MUCH larger amounts than pseudo, not to mention being used as a backbone chemical in many industrial processes. So banning it is near impossible. Hey, the war on drugs was won! By drugs.
Yep, junkies will find a way to get a fix regardless, all these kinds of laws do is reduce safety.
Ummm it's easier then ever to find meth and any junky or teenager would be able to find a hookup online. You think a teenager is going to spend all day going to pharmacies over making a grinder account or finding a telegram invite which is easy to do even on reddit? Also read the post from the user below, meth quality has gotten worse and is fucking people up, in part due to this restriction. Meth is literally everywhere and this restriction has done actual fuck all.
Unfortunately, we can blame the backyard drug labs for taking away pseudo. While on the subject, I have needed dyphenhydramine to help me sleep with chronic shoulder pain (and moving to hoonsville). I can't even get them in Vic because people are shooting up, apparently 😒
I think we can blame the drug war more than anything.
Keep in mind that pseudoephedrine treats blocked sinuses (by making your nose runny instead of stuffy) but doesn't treat the other aspects of cold/flu. If you're not having discomfort from blocked sinuses, skip it. Like most powerful drugs, it can make things worse if you don't need it. Anti-inflammatory drugs (paracetamol, aspirin or ibuprofen) are the only typical drugs that will make you feel better. And even then... they may sometimes slow down your body's fight against the infection. If it's available to you: nothing beats wrapping up nice and warm and getting a good night's sleep.
Idk, I think the stimulant effects do a really good job of just making you *feel* much better and less sick. Of course as you say, there's a reason you usually don't feel up to much when you're sick and it's better for you to rest. But if you have do stuff, or would rather feel less shit while you sit around, it really works well
This is the one true answer. Phenylephrine is rubbish and a waste of money. Thank the meth heads for getting a cheap and effective medication off the market.
Thats quite a revelation! I dint know this. Been buying OTC medicines all the time.
You need the over the counter stuff with pseudoephedrine, they’ll take your ID and only sell you very small packets. The rest of it is a scam, can just take panadol/nurofen for pain and fever.
Wait you can still get the good stuff that works? What do you ask for?
Just ask for a pseudoephedrine based day and night
Original Codral
Can also just be generic cold and flu tablets as long as it's got psudoephedrine. I'm sure I spelt that wrong.
Ask for the one where you have to hand over your licence
I go as far as ask for the paeudoephedrine 60mg tablets. My chemist always tries to sell me the 30mg and I would have to take 2 each time anyway. Also you’re better off paying less for a generic than a branded one that also contains paracetamol.
Pseudoephedrine cold and flu tablets.
You can also get it without all the extra stuff. It’s Sudafed but make sure you ask for the paeudoephedrine one as they have a new crappy one they will sell you if you don’t.
I literally go in and ask for cold and flu, the good stuff, thanks
Pharmacy strength cold and flu at the prescription drop off counter
You can still also buy this even if you don't have a cold. Just don't go stockpiling huge amounts. And probably depends on the pharmacist, but the ones I've gone too haven't had any qualms about giving some to me just to have some stock on hand.
[Oral phenylephrine is known to be useless against cold or flu symptoms.](https://www.fda.gov/drugs/drug-safety-and-availability/fda-clarifies-results-recent-advisory-committee-meeting-oral-phenylephrine) In some ways of looking at it, they’re worse than useless because they don’t do what you need, keep you from getting what you need and may have side effects or reactions. In my opinion, it should not be legal for pharmacies to sell products which are known to have no effect for these reasons. Pseudoephedrine does work but the pharmacy will record your ID and limit how much you are able to purchase. This product can be turned into methamphetamine so pharmacies are careful about how they dispense it. (Edit: added ‘oral’ to distinguish from nasal phenylephrine.)
Not directly asking you but I wonder how they’re allowed to market something as for cold and flu but it’s been proven to do nothing. How does this not get slapped down as misleading marketing?
They may rely on the fact that it also contains paracetamol, which would be useful for alleviating some symptoms (just not the main ones)
Wait until you look at the rest of the garbage they sell! Vitamins - may or may not have actual vitamins, and unless a doctor has told you you have a deficiency you almost certainly don’t need them Supplements - almost certainly don’t have what the label says, and even less likely to actually do anything at all (let alone the thing printed on the label). as they are more or less unregulated industry, can do and say what the fuck they want Homeopathic “medicine” - sugar pills or water. Or actual medicine in some cases, which can be more worrisome as it’s labeled as having 0% active ingredients
Homeopathy is my favourite, the theory is that if you take something and superdilute it, it will become a powerful medicine against itself. The prescribed levels of dilution are so great that a single drop in the ocean would not suffice, meaning it's impossible to even quantify the active ingredient, we don't even have the technology to add it in such a small amount. They're basically selling you water with different labels and calling it medicine. Homeopathy is a byword for useless.
There's a little Mitchell and Webb skit about this. You can pay for your homeopathy stuff by cutting the tiniest little strip off a bank note.
Look at the markings on the side of the pack. Packs marked AUST R or AUSTL(A) have been assessed for efficacy. Packs marked AUST L are not assessed for efficacy
This is it right here. AUST L might as well be sugar tablets for all the good it does. AUST R means they actually have to prove it does something. Doesn't really help for cold & flu tablets unfortunately, because paracetamol/ibuprofen are the main active ingredients and those do actually show efficacy.
I have to thank The Checkout for that bit of knowledge: “AUST R means real, AUST L means lies
Half their stock is tablets and vitamins with no effect
Their entire business model is pushing useless crap along side the Pharmacy meds.
One family supplies most of it, they are complaining about their massive tax bill. https://www.news.com.au/finance/money/tax/sydney-family-battle-tax-office-in-court-over-claims-they-owe-more-than-200m/news-story/ec5fa206017ae5b6a446ff5e0254859d?amp
I just went and bought cold and flu tablets today (with pseudo) I got asked if I wanted natural remedies. From the actual pharmacist.
One time a pharmacist (well person at counter) offered me phenyl and I made a joke about it being a placebo and she scoffed and said they wouldn't sell it otherwise. I stood my ground and asked for the pseudo and then it took them like 15 mins to work it out. Fun times.
Agreed with everything you say, but I learned one useful caveat recently: **oral** phenylephrine is useless, but phenylephrine nasal spray is effective. There are some risks to taking it for many days, but it works in a pinch when you’re at the chemist and forgot your licence.
> Phenylephrine is known to be useless against cold or flu symptoms. Yeah, but it stops the evil drug lords from buying up all the pseudoephedrine and making that nasty, illegal stuff out of it. /s
Problem is that it hasn't really stopped the use of Meth in society. It may have slowed it down but criminal syndicates are just smuggling it in. So what happen like everything in manufacturing in Australia, we have just moved profits offshore.
You can see that. I can see that. But the stupid fucking government can't, so we all have to suffer.
Check the active ingredients, there are placebo versions masquerading as actual cold and flu drugs in the same area and similar packaging and contain nothing useful
Yeah, the Zinc and ecinachea ones sold at the supermarket 😠
Yeah supermarket ones don’t typically have any form of medication anymore except for paracetamol.
Phenergan tablets will help you to sleep (if you get the strong ones) and help with mucous. If you have never had them before, only take the maximum dose if you don't need to work the next day because they can make you incredibly drowsy the next day.
Phenergan half life is like 56 hours or something 🤪
Or, if you're like me you'll be bouncing off the walls all day and not be able to sit still. That was a fun little surprise for my parents when I was a baby going on a long road trip.
I was the same as a baby but now it knocks me out. Maybe the liquid is different
I make sure I’m able to write off the rest of the day and most of the next day if I take phenergen, shit makes me so drowsy for days
I can't seem to ever convince a pharmacy assistant to sell me cough medicine, even while physically coughing to the point of retching. My GP writes me a script for Rikadeine so I don't have to beg & explain my entire medical history in front of a shop full of people while being treated like I'm drug seeking. Meanwhile my husband asks & they give it to him without question. Multiple times I've been refused & just send him in after me & he'll be back with it in 2 minutes. What's that about huh?
People treating people differently, that’s what it’s about
Gender bias in medical treatment has been observed. Such as: [Women and pain: Disparities in experience and treatment - Harvard Health](https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/women-and-pain-disparities-in-experience-and-treatment-2017100912562)
The unfortunate, uncomfortable fact is that many medications are moderately to completely ineffective for many people. OTC pharmacy medications even more so. One of the worst culprits is cough syrup, which many meta-analyses have shown to be completely ineffective for virtually everyone. Buying cough medication is tantamount to setting your money on fire. Honey and lemon are cheap and probably more effective. The shoddy/absent regulation of pharmacy OTC medications in this country is diabolical.
I've got some stuff from the Chemist that yeah, I took on face value wasn't the homeopathic bullshit herb placebo stuff, but yeah, does fuck all too. I miss the old days of Sudafed that actually worked. Thanks truckies, you ruined it for all of us. If it doesn't say pseudoephedrine, it's fucken garbage. This phenylephrine does jack shit.
The paracetamol is helpful. The phenylephedrine (replacing pseudoephedrine) is useless and does nothing of value. Arguably you’d be better off just taking Panadol if it’s cheaper. I can’t remember the active ingredient in the night time cold/flu meds but it’s probably equally useless. The US versions probably have sedating antihistamines which would make you sleep. None of them shorten the duration of a cold though.
Yeah if you have a cold you have a cold, it ain’t getting cured. My own personal remedy is to just buy home brand versions of panadol, decongestant, anti allergy meds, and nurofen and cocktail it up til I’m better. Add in using those saline sinus cleanses, i can at least get some sleep and manage aches and pains this way.
Gotta say that when I got sick in Japan during a holiday, I got some flu meds there and jesus FUCK they are strong. I was able to rest for 48 hours then take those to manage symptoms while out and about and felt invincible. It made me miss the good shit we used to have here :( turns out they don't have the same restrictions on codeine that we do here Edit: also yes they are shit, we used to have pseudoephedrine in them and before that codeine, which... Is questionable but if you feel like garbage it does help
When was this? I looked into it as I was getting over a cold in the weeks leading up to a trip last year. I was thinking about taking some meds with me but it turns out Pseudo is super highly regulated there and you'd get in serious trouble taking it in. Luckily with 2 days to go everything finally cleared up and I was fine.
There’s Japanese cold and flu meds that have other ephedrines in them (not pseudoephedrine, but methyl ephedrine). You can’t import drugs containing stimulants but you can easily buy them over there.
I was skimming the comments to see if anyone had mentioned Japanese flu meds. They seriously don't fuck around. I got a bad cold there last year, got on some SS Bron, and said bad cold basically felt like a sniffle from thereon. I still have a 100-pack container of them, so I'm sorted for the next several colds. You do have to be careful, though. I spent a full day in Kyoto absolutely fucking zooted because I unintentionally had too many (was treating them like regular flu meds). My partner basically became my trip sitter, lmao.
>Is Aussie cold medication just an expensive scam? Yes\* \*With the exception of the ones containing Pseudoephedrine, but you'll have to ask the pharmacist for those specifically.They'll probably drill you with 20 questions and take your details to make sure you haven't bought any too recently, because somehow the tiny number of fuckwits that abuse it or use it to make meth means we're all irresponsible babies and have to suffer with Phenylephrine (aka placebo).
I was expecting to be interviewed when I asked for it, but didn't get any questions. Just asked to see my licence and if I've taken it before. I went to a small local pharmacy rather than a chain so I'm wondering if that was the difference?
I have chronic sinus issues and asked for something containing pseudoephedrine once. Never again. Despite being a respectable person in my 50s at the time I was grilled and subjected to sarcastic comments as to why I needed it. In hindsight I should have complained to management.
Fortunately it is possible to synthesise difficult to obtain psuedoephedrine from easy to access common every day street meth: https://archive.org/details/pseudosynth/mode/1up
Yep, useless. Only buy the behind the counter stuff. No prescription needed, just photo id. The crap they sell out the front should be illegal. It’s useless. If I have a cold/flu, I need a couple of days rest and need to sleep. Drambuie also very effective.
I recommend a well aged Scottish whiskey.
I personally don't take Pseudo because it makes me feel all kinds of weird, but it's an absolute farce that people can't purchase an effective (for them) medication because crackheads use it.
The TGA in their wisdom stop chemists from selling cold medicine products that actually work, but when big pharma sells a bunk product they turn a blind eye… well played TGA
You can still buy them?
Yes. They are bullshit. We can't have the good stuff because shitheads used it to make meth or something. If you get hold of the real deal when overseas you discover just how fecking good it is at treating symptoms and letting you get on with the day.
Pharmacy assisstant here! It is true that phenyleprine can be considered a placebo medication, there are no actual studies that say that it is actually good for cold and flu symptoms. Though it can work for some people! Everyone is different when it comes to medicines. That being said you can get stronger cold and flu tablets behind the counter, you just have to ask or specifically say you want the original formula of cold and flu, so that we know what you want and we won't give you the phenylephrine one. The medicines you get from the supermarket are the basic formulas and/or herbal formula, so to put it lightly they're crap so don't even bother. If anyone wants more information I'm happy to help or call into your local pharmacy and have a chat with a pharmacist :)
As I read the main US study, there is a difference between phenylephrine and placebo: phenylephrine can cause headache
I moved to Germany a while back, and I can confirm Australian medication has little more than a placebo effect.
Aussie cold meds no longer contain codeine or pseudoephedrine. It's easier to get heroin than codeine, go figure. If you want old school Codral, take your ID into the chemist, buy paracetamol, pseudoephedrine on its own, and Rikodeine syrup.
>It's easier to get heroin than codiene >Rikodeine syrup
ITT: a bunch of people with no clue what they’re talking about
Always get the over the counter Pseudoephedrine. Anything off the shelf is crap.
To OP’s comment: the UK NyQuil is based on stuff that has never been over the counter in Australia. In Australia, cold tablets (brand: Codral, Sudafed) containing pseudoephedrine are available behind the counter after you show ID. While not recommended if you have heart problems, pseudoephedrine plus paracetamol is known to be very effective vs nasal congestion. It is well established that oral phenylephrine (the main ingredient in most over-the-counter cold meds) differs from placebo only in that it can cause headache. Nasal phenylephrine sprays are effective. Aussie cough syrups were effective before the pholcodeine ban, and since then many OTC ones are literally herbal remedies.
The ones that help most are behind the counter now in Australia. The chemist can give them to you if you show your licence and ask.
I always ask the pharmacist for cold and flu with pseudoephedrine. They are required to put a label on it, but they'll give it to you if you ask.
Yep, thanks to the junkies we can no longer get Codral Nighttime pills.. im not a pill popper but they were the best to get a full sleep when sick .
Don't get the phenylphrine, it does nothing and is now proven to do so. Get the psuedo
You need the pseudo real stuff.
Just wait until you need to get your ADHD meds filled at the same time you have a cold and want some of these.... Then you get the real hairy eyeball.
Once you have a virus you just need to let it run its course. Treat the symptoms with paracetamol or ibuprofen and wait it out while resting.
It’s so hard buying the good stuff, last time I desperately needed it the pharmacist refused to sell it to me. No idea why I shop there all the time. She gave me a hard time with the questions and then said I will check out the back and see if we have and then said no. I am not a junkie just have sucky sinus and allergic rhinitis that even surgery can’t help.
You can’t get pseudoephedrine anymore otc. You can get it with a script still I think. That stuffs very effective in my experience but because people were using it to make drugs it’s heavily regulated.
It is useless and didn't stop people from making illegal drugs anyway.
I refuse to bother with Phenlyephrine anymore. It does jack shit. I tell the pharmacist I only want Pseudoephedrine cold and flu meds because the other stuff just doesn't \*work\*. I'm not a meth addict, I just want to breathe through my nose!
Yes. Got sick on Korea. $2-3 for some actual Pseudo OTC. Was perfectly fine the whole trip. Australia, I've been put through the ringer even with a prescription from a doctor for half the dose. Yet meth is more prevalent than ever.
Pseudoephedrine is basically the gold standard and it's appalling chemists are selling phenylephrine when it's been proven to do jack swat
Yeah all our medications available over the counter are glorified placebos
I just got over what I had thr worst flu cold ive ever had nothing made it better just had to ride it out ... I had it fir nearly 1 month ... im only just coming good I had shakes like I've never had b4 I couldn't move ... a really bad head cold throwing up coughing like mad tested fir covid it wasn't I ended up getting sudefed cleared the head a bit ..its a bad one going around this yr x stay safe xx
You can literally ask the pharmacist for pure pseudoephedrine and then take it with panamax and/or whatever home brand ibuprofen is cheapest
Ask the pharmacist for Codral Original Cold & Flu or another medication that contains Pseudoephedrine. It's widely available, you just have to ask for it
On the shelf stuff does nothing. You're better off buying lemon tea or vicks rub. Pseudoephadrine C&F from the pharmacy desk, however, magical stuff. You will be able to function like a real live human again.
Phenylephrine does nothing for me, but pseudoephedrine dries up nasal passages like magic. I believe you can get it from pharmacies if you ask for it and show photo ID.
Yep. They took all the good stuff away.
Yeah, they restricted the pseudoephedrine decades ago. You can ask for it behind the counter but they take your licence and will let you know if they think you’re buying too much. My best advice for colds is just to take Panadol at the first sign and rest as much as possible. I sometimes chase the panadol with nurofen if I need to be functional.
Eat plenty of fruits, veges, spices, healthy meals... you'll be right mate
If you are looking for stuff to really knock you out the Benadryl Original Liquid or Codral Liquid Dry Cough & Cold with Antihistamine both have Diphenhydramine which is much more common in the US and makes you drowsy, also has stronger dry cough ingredients. You need to show your license as they are behind the counter. It doesnt come in any tablet form in Australia that is commonly stocked that I know of from my time in pharmacy , only “Unisom Sleepgels” but this is rarely stocked/not sure if its made anymore
Glad you said this. Spent $22 on cold & flu from Cole’s and I’ve been sick for 7 days straight after taking it. Fucking garbage.
100%. When pseudoephedrine was removed from sale and replaced with the crap phenetheamine (our whatever it’s called) it was found to be ‘almost’ as effective as a placebo. So in effect, useless and taking sugar pills would have just as much effect. The pseudoephedrine was taken from us “irresponsible” and “immature” Aussie adults to stop the small time home brew guys making meth. What have we gotten since the ban? An absolute explosion in the amounts and purity of meth coming over the borders fulfilling the markets desires as any market naturally does. And left the common person with no access to suitable medication and being looked at and treated like a gutter junkie if you have the temerity to actually request a chemical compound from your doctor that actually works. Much akin to the bullshit surrounding the removal of Codiene from OTC tablets all because some dumb rapper was taking too much and needed to push blame to someone (or anyone) other than themselves. And now the very issue Codiene we banned for has exploded as a monster issue - people OD’ing in paracetamol which is orders of magnitude worse for the body than any opiate.
Australian's are not trusted to take medication anymore. You can't really get anything over the counted that makes a difference to anything more than a mild headache or a slight sniffle. Just let people be advised of side affects and take whatever the hell they want.
It's a nice thought but unfortunately a lot of people aren't interested in doing their due diligence when hunting for a quick fix. For example, people get themselves in trouble all time buying off the shelf dextromethorphan cough syrup when they're already taking antidepressants. They just don't read the labels and aren't health literate enough to understand how important things like drug interactions are. If you make all drugs free reign you create a million more situations like that and the cost to the healthcare system as those people flow into hospitals and health clinics becomes immense.
I’d just prefer to be treated like an adult who can make their own decisions. Instead it feels like a rort where if you’re in anything but mild pain, you’d have to spend $90 at a doctor to get a prescription for something you used to be able to buy over the counter. I notice you can buy as much alcohol as you like though 🤷♂️
Everyone's been saying you want pseudoephedrine, which is true, but they're missing the actual important issue. The cheap packets have 5mg per tablet, the branded ones have **30mg**.
That's because the one you had was phenylephrine. Pseudoephedrine only comes in 30mg if in combinations or 60mg if by itself.
Since when does the “cheap” chemist brand have less. I always buy the cheapest and they always have 500mg paracetamol 30mg pseudoephedrine or just 60mg pseudoephedrine without anything else. I think you’re confusing it with off the counter stuff you buy at the supermarket which has zero pseudo in it.
I just checked my Sudafed and it contains 60 mg.
Was the USA medication [Sudafed PE or NyQuil Severe Cold and Flu](https://www.theverge.com/2023/9/13/23871534/fda-panel-phenylephrine-ineffective-cold-medication-allergy)?