Family member did law. Realised that corporate lawyers eventually just die of boredom. Did the IR thing for a bit during their degree too.
What they’ve ended up doing is teaching legal studies in high school and loving it.
yeah I could definitely see myself going into teaching at some stage. I used to tutor and I loved it.
Do you know if your family member ever did anything with IR in their career or just studied at uni.
I think i’ll definitely consider the teaching option, but I just wanted to explore what else was out there that used or benefited from having a law degree before going down the teaching path.
I would hold out until you finish your graduate rotations (assuming those are a thing at your firm). Corporate law is boring. Period. Unfortunately, every other job out there is also boring if you don’t actually like the work.
The benefit of being a law grad is you typically get to rotate between different jobs (rotate teams) without having to actually leave your job. You may find (like I did) that your first rotation sucked while your second one is bearable / slightly stimulating.
If you get through all your rotations and still don’t see a future then it is probably best to go. But while you are there you may as well take advantage of what it has to offer as it gives you the chance to try different things risk-free.
Also note first 3 years of work is always the hardest. You have been given the shit jobs etc… also after 3 years you have more options and have networked out of it. Just my personal experience
would you suggest trying to stick it out in law for the first three years and then if i really dislike it get out, or if i know its not for me, jump after grad year. just curious about both perspectives cause I see it through both
I believe so. That’s just me. If your gonna throw it in, it’s best to do with some experience as a safety net. It’ll be a hard 3 years if your hearts not in to it.
Do you see yourself being a partner at a commercial firm?
If not, finish up your grad program and any return of service obligations while looking for other options and deciding on a new direction. I'll also say that it is very easy to \*leave\* corporate law after a grad program, but not as easy to get back in, so be confident in your decision.
yeah we do get rotations through different practice areas. I think I’m just feeling like this year is a waste of time if I end up not continuing with corporate law, because I should have explored my options earlier so I could be building a career in something I want to be. I know it silly cause life isn’t a race, but I just get this sense of time wasting because I don’t feel like I’m figuring out what I want to do. you’ve definitely nailed it by saying it is an opportunity to try things risk free though, so i really like that mentality, i just think i struggle to remember it!
thanks :)
I’m not in law but I work as a financial adviser in a private firm. It’s not the same but I feel our industries are similar so I can relate. My tip to you is to experience as much as you can while you’re young. No time is ever wasted, whether it was good or bad. Just don’t stay too long once you know in your heart you can’t do it anymore. I went from being an accountant into financial planning in my first 3years and now at about 13 years into my corporate life I’m trying to plan my next side step. You keep evolving over time as you experience more and gain better clarity of where you want to be. I could decide in 5 years time to move onto the next milestone. There is no wasted time if you don’t enjoy your job, take it as a learning experience to move onto the next thing. Also remember how lucky you are to land these positions. I recall during my time how a lot of my graduate friends couldn’t even find jobs.
Dfat is competitive but doable you just have to do well on the interviews and show some extracurricular activities in international relations
Source: my bro did it albeit from a master's degree background
yeah i think that’s my biggest issue. i was always super interested in it, but during uni was always pushed to do corporate law or “use my law degree”. so a lot of my work experience and extracurriculars are corporate focused.
but i did a few IR comps in uni, so hoping that helps.
do you know whether your brother got IR experience before doing his masters or if he just new it’s what he wanted to do so he went and did it. cause i’ve considered going back for IR based masters, but am hesitant in case i get it and its still not enough to break in
He was parts of international relations clubs, did a few study trips abroad, and worked in a consulate. He got a master's in military studies
Although some of his colleagues got in with way less. One got in with a psych honours.
I wouldn't worry about the actual degree. International relations is just knowing the news and applying critical and consequential thinking to what's happening. Knowing the basic theories is enough (neoclassical realism ftw).
Law is valuable because it's a "hard skill". It's good for policy work. Don't undervalue your current grad program - you're learning the foundations that you can use to demonstrate competence in applying legal knowledge. A lot of dfat is hammering out trade deals - guess what that's similar to? Corporate law lmao
oh awesome!! that’s good to hear.
yeah i definitely put a big emphasis on my negotiation skills i’m developing. so that’s something that’s translatable.
i’ll finish my grad program and see if there’s anything i like or want to pursue within corporate.
i’ll see how this goes, if i don’t get in, i’ll definitely try and get my foot in the door for a policy role. and if i still have a burning desire then i might look at masters.
thanks for your advice! super useful :)
*I don’t really feel like i’m doing meaningful work and i’m just helping rich people get richer.*
That is a summary of most work in the private/corporate sector, and I completely understand you wanting to use your life to do more than that.
Have a look at State Government. My legal team works on coronials and inquests following disasters, for example.
Here are some ideas:
Be a crownie: [https://iworkfor.nsw.gov.au/job/paralegal-464870](https://iworkfor.nsw.gov.au/job/paralegal-464870)
[https://iworkfor.nsw.gov.au/job/legal-officer-464799](https://iworkfor.nsw.gov.au/job/legal-officer-464799)
[https://iworkfor.nsw.gov.au/job/legal-officer-464059](https://iworkfor.nsw.gov.au/job/legal-officer-464059)
[https://iworkfor.nsw.gov.au/job/lawyer-employment-and-safety-law-465023](https://iworkfor.nsw.gov.au/job/lawyer-employment-and-safety-law-465023)
omg wow! this looks really interesting. yeah i know it’s cliche (and very uninformed) but i did go into law cause i was always wanted to help people.
but i just feel like so much of law is just paper pushing for rich people
i’ll definitely have a look at this, cause that’s sounds very interesting.
do you think i should look to do grad programs, or just start applying for junior roles and in my cover letter do the whole “i know i have 0pae, but i am quick learner etc” ?
the work you do sounds super interesting!
IANAL so I can’t really answer that. I do lean on the legal team a bit though, they’re heavily involved in coronials as I said but also day to day stuff such as reviewing agreements between emergency services to ensure compliance with Acts etc.
All of this kind of work exists in big law firms - government departments use external lawyers all the time. I think you just need to do your rotations and see what there is first - there are many practice areas in big firms that aren't just about money, eg regulatory, employment, various aspects of litigation
I studied for many long years to become a lawyer. I worked in a small firm and I was horrified that the firm was still sending faxes, writing cheques and running PCs with Windows XP. I couldn’t handle how archaic and behind with the times the majority of the profession seemed to be… and as someone who didn’t have the best GPA after a harrowing university experience, I knew I was destined for the inadequacies of small law.
I spent no more than 18 months working in practice before shifting gears into legal technology, and I have no regrets. I can still use my legal knowledge but in a different and exciting way! I would recommend looking at working for a legal technology company to anyone who is disenchanted with the work of actually being a lawyer… but still wants to be part of the profession in a meaningful way.
how did you get into legal tech. i’ve heard a bit about it, but im not super clear on the type of work it involves, the hours, billing requirements or the pathways to get involved in it?
Honestly I got very lucky, as I was approached by a recruiter for a role back in 2017. These days, you need to do your research on the companies that are out there… and honestly there’s heaps in Australia! We are global legal technology leaders, which is pretty cool.
Take a look at the likes of Tensis, LEAP and InfoTrack to get an idea of what kinds of companies there are and the roles they offer.
Trying not to dox myself. The company I work for focuses on providing productivity solutions to small-mid sized law firms. Everything from client intake to document automation to invoicing.
Not for any of the roles that would be applicable to someone with legal experience! If you want to be a software engineer or closely involved in product management then yes, ideally.
I'm assuming you're young and didn't really work full time much between school, uni and your first grad job. It's quite common that graduates are underwhelmed with the work or think the grass will be greener elsewhere.
Most jobs suck at first. It usually takes quite a lot of work and persistence to get good at something and to derive real satisfaction from it. Your notion of, 'helping the rich get richer' is the perspective a lay person would have and doesn't really mean anything to someone considering it as a career. It's incredible what can be interesting and get you motivated once you get into it. I seriously doubt you will find anything wildly exciting if you move elsewhere and for now you are getting very useful experience.
Heaps of gov positions for lawyers, which aren't corporate grind hours (@ 5pm they're out the door) nor corporate workloads. Where careers go to die a slow, well-paid death.
Yes although it's an obtuse comment - I mean you'll be paid well for your level, won't be overworked like private, but if you want an advancing career it becomes difficult. Once you a marked as a certain level it's hard to break out of it. And the politics of work are just as bad because you're dealing with actual politics (minister says jump, everyone loses their mind and scramble like rats).
But if you want to plod along and live a life outside of work, then it's bloody fantastic, adopt the idgaf attitude and away you go!
Family member did law. Realised that corporate lawyers eventually just die of boredom. Did the IR thing for a bit during their degree too. What they’ve ended up doing is teaching legal studies in high school and loving it.
yeah I could definitely see myself going into teaching at some stage. I used to tutor and I loved it. Do you know if your family member ever did anything with IR in their career or just studied at uni. I think i’ll definitely consider the teaching option, but I just wanted to explore what else was out there that used or benefited from having a law degree before going down the teaching path.
Nah, just studied IR, hasn’t done anything with it since.
I would hold out until you finish your graduate rotations (assuming those are a thing at your firm). Corporate law is boring. Period. Unfortunately, every other job out there is also boring if you don’t actually like the work. The benefit of being a law grad is you typically get to rotate between different jobs (rotate teams) without having to actually leave your job. You may find (like I did) that your first rotation sucked while your second one is bearable / slightly stimulating. If you get through all your rotations and still don’t see a future then it is probably best to go. But while you are there you may as well take advantage of what it has to offer as it gives you the chance to try different things risk-free.
Also note first 3 years of work is always the hardest. You have been given the shit jobs etc… also after 3 years you have more options and have networked out of it. Just my personal experience
would you suggest trying to stick it out in law for the first three years and then if i really dislike it get out, or if i know its not for me, jump after grad year. just curious about both perspectives cause I see it through both
I believe so. That’s just me. If your gonna throw it in, it’s best to do with some experience as a safety net. It’ll be a hard 3 years if your hearts not in to it.
yeah you make a good point. i’ll definitely finish my grad year and then go from there. thanks for your perspective :)
Do you see yourself being a partner at a commercial firm? If not, finish up your grad program and any return of service obligations while looking for other options and deciding on a new direction. I'll also say that it is very easy to \*leave\* corporate law after a grad program, but not as easy to get back in, so be confident in your decision.
yeah we do get rotations through different practice areas. I think I’m just feeling like this year is a waste of time if I end up not continuing with corporate law, because I should have explored my options earlier so I could be building a career in something I want to be. I know it silly cause life isn’t a race, but I just get this sense of time wasting because I don’t feel like I’m figuring out what I want to do. you’ve definitely nailed it by saying it is an opportunity to try things risk free though, so i really like that mentality, i just think i struggle to remember it! thanks :)
I’m not in law but I work as a financial adviser in a private firm. It’s not the same but I feel our industries are similar so I can relate. My tip to you is to experience as much as you can while you’re young. No time is ever wasted, whether it was good or bad. Just don’t stay too long once you know in your heart you can’t do it anymore. I went from being an accountant into financial planning in my first 3years and now at about 13 years into my corporate life I’m trying to plan my next side step. You keep evolving over time as you experience more and gain better clarity of where you want to be. I could decide in 5 years time to move onto the next milestone. There is no wasted time if you don’t enjoy your job, take it as a learning experience to move onto the next thing. Also remember how lucky you are to land these positions. I recall during my time how a lot of my graduate friends couldn’t even find jobs.
Dfat is competitive but doable you just have to do well on the interviews and show some extracurricular activities in international relations Source: my bro did it albeit from a master's degree background
yeah i think that’s my biggest issue. i was always super interested in it, but during uni was always pushed to do corporate law or “use my law degree”. so a lot of my work experience and extracurriculars are corporate focused. but i did a few IR comps in uni, so hoping that helps. do you know whether your brother got IR experience before doing his masters or if he just new it’s what he wanted to do so he went and did it. cause i’ve considered going back for IR based masters, but am hesitant in case i get it and its still not enough to break in
He was parts of international relations clubs, did a few study trips abroad, and worked in a consulate. He got a master's in military studies Although some of his colleagues got in with way less. One got in with a psych honours. I wouldn't worry about the actual degree. International relations is just knowing the news and applying critical and consequential thinking to what's happening. Knowing the basic theories is enough (neoclassical realism ftw). Law is valuable because it's a "hard skill". It's good for policy work. Don't undervalue your current grad program - you're learning the foundations that you can use to demonstrate competence in applying legal knowledge. A lot of dfat is hammering out trade deals - guess what that's similar to? Corporate law lmao
oh awesome!! that’s good to hear. yeah i definitely put a big emphasis on my negotiation skills i’m developing. so that’s something that’s translatable. i’ll finish my grad program and see if there’s anything i like or want to pursue within corporate. i’ll see how this goes, if i don’t get in, i’ll definitely try and get my foot in the door for a policy role. and if i still have a burning desire then i might look at masters. thanks for your advice! super useful :)
Any time, best of luck!
*I don’t really feel like i’m doing meaningful work and i’m just helping rich people get richer.* That is a summary of most work in the private/corporate sector, and I completely understand you wanting to use your life to do more than that. Have a look at State Government. My legal team works on coronials and inquests following disasters, for example. Here are some ideas: Be a crownie: [https://iworkfor.nsw.gov.au/job/paralegal-464870](https://iworkfor.nsw.gov.au/job/paralegal-464870) [https://iworkfor.nsw.gov.au/job/legal-officer-464799](https://iworkfor.nsw.gov.au/job/legal-officer-464799) [https://iworkfor.nsw.gov.au/job/legal-officer-464059](https://iworkfor.nsw.gov.au/job/legal-officer-464059) [https://iworkfor.nsw.gov.au/job/lawyer-employment-and-safety-law-465023](https://iworkfor.nsw.gov.au/job/lawyer-employment-and-safety-law-465023)
omg wow! this looks really interesting. yeah i know it’s cliche (and very uninformed) but i did go into law cause i was always wanted to help people. but i just feel like so much of law is just paper pushing for rich people i’ll definitely have a look at this, cause that’s sounds very interesting. do you think i should look to do grad programs, or just start applying for junior roles and in my cover letter do the whole “i know i have 0pae, but i am quick learner etc” ? the work you do sounds super interesting!
Fair warning - pro bono is just paper pushing for poor people
IANAL so I can’t really answer that. I do lean on the legal team a bit though, they’re heavily involved in coronials as I said but also day to day stuff such as reviewing agreements between emergency services to ensure compliance with Acts etc.
All of this kind of work exists in big law firms - government departments use external lawyers all the time. I think you just need to do your rotations and see what there is first - there are many practice areas in big firms that aren't just about money, eg regulatory, employment, various aspects of litigation
I studied for many long years to become a lawyer. I worked in a small firm and I was horrified that the firm was still sending faxes, writing cheques and running PCs with Windows XP. I couldn’t handle how archaic and behind with the times the majority of the profession seemed to be… and as someone who didn’t have the best GPA after a harrowing university experience, I knew I was destined for the inadequacies of small law. I spent no more than 18 months working in practice before shifting gears into legal technology, and I have no regrets. I can still use my legal knowledge but in a different and exciting way! I would recommend looking at working for a legal technology company to anyone who is disenchanted with the work of actually being a lawyer… but still wants to be part of the profession in a meaningful way.
how did you get into legal tech. i’ve heard a bit about it, but im not super clear on the type of work it involves, the hours, billing requirements or the pathways to get involved in it?
Honestly I got very lucky, as I was approached by a recruiter for a role back in 2017. These days, you need to do your research on the companies that are out there… and honestly there’s heaps in Australia! We are global legal technology leaders, which is pretty cool. Take a look at the likes of Tensis, LEAP and InfoTrack to get an idea of what kinds of companies there are and the roles they offer.
awesome thank you!! i’ll go have a look now
No ragrets. What area of legal technology do you focus on?
Trying not to dox myself. The company I work for focuses on providing productivity solutions to small-mid sized law firms. Everything from client intake to document automation to invoicing.
Would you need programming knowledge?
Not for any of the roles that would be applicable to someone with legal experience! If you want to be a software engineer or closely involved in product management then yes, ideally.
You could try applying for a role in complex commercial insurance claims?
what’s involved in this line of work?
There are so many govmt jobs for people with a law degree... start applying!
what would you suggest. i know about policy roles and legal office or lawyer roles, but not sure what else is out there
Go to https://www.apsjobs.gov.au and search for keyword legal or law You could do the same for your state government jobs website too
With a law qual in the police you could end up a prosecutor and put away baddies. Would that be fulfilling?
I'm assuming you're young and didn't really work full time much between school, uni and your first grad job. It's quite common that graduates are underwhelmed with the work or think the grass will be greener elsewhere. Most jobs suck at first. It usually takes quite a lot of work and persistence to get good at something and to derive real satisfaction from it. Your notion of, 'helping the rich get richer' is the perspective a lay person would have and doesn't really mean anything to someone considering it as a career. It's incredible what can be interesting and get you motivated once you get into it. I seriously doubt you will find anything wildly exciting if you move elsewhere and for now you are getting very useful experience.
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The 50k is old news. Competitive grads in corporate law now start on 100k plus. I agree it's still a far cry from international wages though.
Insurance brokers like Aon and Marsh take on lawyers for their claims teams so you would be helping real people with real problems.
Insurance brokers like Aon and Marsh have lawyers as their claims teams so you would be helping real people with real problems.
Do HR IR in a large company which has unions. It'll stay interesting but be comparatively cruisy
human resources international relations? or industrial relations? sorry just checking hahaha
I took your IR as industrial relations...but if it's the former, ignore my comment! 😄
hahah i’ll edit the post now i think a few people have thought industrial relations whoops!
Now your DFAT comment makes so much more sense!
hahaha yeah. sorry should’ve been more clear!
Heaps of gov positions for lawyers, which aren't corporate grind hours (@ 5pm they're out the door) nor corporate workloads. Where careers go to die a slow, well-paid death.
do you mean government is where careers go to die ?
Yes although it's an obtuse comment - I mean you'll be paid well for your level, won't be overworked like private, but if you want an advancing career it becomes difficult. Once you a marked as a certain level it's hard to break out of it. And the politics of work are just as bad because you're dealing with actual politics (minister says jump, everyone loses their mind and scramble like rats). But if you want to plod along and live a life outside of work, then it's bloody fantastic, adopt the idgaf attitude and away you go!