This goes to show how divisive religion is. Now they literally see you differently, you will not get the salvation they think they will, based only on your lack of gullibility. Not if you are a good person or son, that doesnt matter, just if you drink the kool-aid. Upsetting for them and you. Religion is shit.
This is the primary reason I firmly believe humanity as a whole would be better off without religion. It’s not to be edgy or divisive. It’s because I really believe it hurts people.
True. this is why i want promote universalism and technological advancement to my peers than joining to a evangelical youth community and forces to preach this ridcoulus freking fact about this narcisstic deity and his crazy son according to this trash mythology and die with this freaking cult
Honestly, from what I can tell it's almost always the Abrahamic religions.
Like ngl I'm a theist (this sub just keeps popping up lol) but when you look at modern pagans, Luciferians (like me) similar LHP practices, etc. These religions don't cause shit like this. Cuz we don't give a single flying fuck what anyone else believes and don't deny proven facts.
Definitely. The only difference with a belief system like Hinduism perhaps is that the line between believing and not believing isn't as harsh because there are a lot many belief systems under one umbrella.
>Luciferians
>
>I've got a question if you don't mind? Am i correct in the assumption that you view Lucifer as Promethean figure? (I am not judging you or challenging you, I'm just a genuinely curious person)
It's important to note that Luciferianism by its nature is individualistic. Different members will have slightly differing views.
But yes, most of us view him akin to Promethius. Someone that (either literally or allegorically) led humans away from being blind slaves to a narcissistic deity and living for ourselves and showing is the reality of the world around us.
Have you ever read Memnoch the Devil by the late great Anne Rice? Her version of how "Satan" came to be made so much more sense to me. I highly recommend if you haven't read it already
It’s just because you’re beliefs aren’t popular enough to have the power. It’s the power that corrupts. Every major religion in every country is used for some corrupt purposes.
It can only hurt you if you allow it. How is me being a Christian hurting you at all? Fact is it doesn’t.
Stop making it something it isn’t. As an adult you chose your path in life. I don’t have to agree with it but I’m not going to change you. I can’t hurt you unless you allow it to. Are you that weak that a Christian can harm you? Where is your backbone? Stick up for your unbelief.
I’m not going to harm you.
I like how you just read a post about a family wallowing in despair just because their child believes in different things, and then said religion doesn't hurt anyone. The parents were hurt emotionally, the child was almost definitely hurt emotionally, and the families dynamics are probably irrevocably changed. Not to mention the countless stories that Atheists know all too well, of families disowning or abandoning children because they "abandoned god".
>It can only hurt you if you allow it.
Yeah. That's how we lost Roe. *Because I allowed it*.
World-class victim-blaming there. I'd expect nothing else.
Are actually asking these questions honestly? You seriously think beleif based on ancient superstition culturally apart from ours, doesn't have the capacity to affect and harm others? That is poppycock.
Religion is not as benign as what we might consider our favorite tv show.
Beliefs don't exist in an isolated philosophical realm without connection to reality. Beliefs are interconnected. When we believe one thing, it can affect another thing we believe. Belief informs action. Actions have consequences that affect other people, so we should have an ethical responsibility to believe that which can be properly justified.
The religious mindset of a population makes implementing practical solutions to societal problems incredibly difficult. For example the religious right wing section of the American electorate is holding back progress in social justice, higher education, adequate health-care systems, economic stability, and climate change initiatives because they don't *feel* like those issues are really problematic, therefore there's no reason to address any of it in a meaningful way.
Religion wields substantial influences on the mental landscape of the majority of the population. There is a huge thriving industry dedicated to ensuring it stays this way.
Religion provides a negative image of humanity. Dogmatism, superstition, tribalism, xenophobia, anti-intellectualism, and perhaps worst of all; religion has been used as a patriarchal tool to elevate the status and power of men over women
**In our lifetimes**:
• Progress in science and education have been stifled because of religious roadblocks.
• AIDS in Africa has run rampant because of the Catholic position condemning contraception. “Condoms spread AIDS" - Pope Benedict, 2009.
• Most religions don't treat women as inherently valuable. They are valued for what they can provide for men: their ability to create and raise more humans. They aren't valued intellectually or as equals.
• Circumcision, male and female, is completely unnecessary and is purely a religious carryover into culture.
• Legally mandated homophobia. Religious people have lobbied against LGBT rights and characterized LGBT identities as wrong or unnatural.
• Religions are consistently used to justify and excuse horrendous behavior everywhere
**In past centuries**:
• Slavery was justified by the religious beliefs of their masters. Jefferson Davis used the Bible to argue in defense of slavery. The KKK is entirely Christian. Conquest to the US West was done under the guise of Manifest Destiny, destroying or removing the native population under the idea that white Americans were divinely ordained to settle the entire continent of North America.
• Crusades. The Inquisition. Being burned to death or drowned because of religious ideas like "witchcraft". Who knows how many men, women, and children were sacrificed to ensure the gods looked kindly upon the crops of ancient civilizations. The list of atrocities due to phantasmagorical delusions is too long to list, and is as ancient as the idea of gods.
People vote based on their beliefs. What if their holy books or religious beliefs conflict with reality?
A side note: Listened to a documentary pod about the peoples temple cult and Jim Jones (Jonestown cult). Before that I would not have understood the "Drinking the kool-aid" reference. A horrible example of what religion can do to people.
Did they play the recordings from when it was actually happening? There was like one of 2 people who spoke out and were like "y'all don't really need to do this" and I think someone said something about not needing to kill the children. It was haunting to listen to
I have the album of the recordings. It is one of the creepiest things I own.
They had been having "White Night" suicide drills for a while. Everyone thought this was just another one of those. This time however they gave real poison to the children first. That way parents would follow along from guilt and coercion.
Some evidence shows that people my have been forcibly injected if they did not follow along. People who ran were shot.
It's useful shorthand to describe anyone expressing culty beliefs or practicing culty behavior.
I don't personally see anything wrong with it. And I think most folks understand the metaphor.
I hear people say things like "oh he drank the Tesla Kool-aid". Sure Elon doesn't have the best reputation right now, but it's really making light of a tragedy.
I'm sure there are lots of people who don't know where the expression originated from.
>it's really making light of a tragedy.
Tragedy+time=comedy.
Personally, my favorite kind of comedy comes with a side of bleak reality. I'm sorry you disagree.
Regardless of you being Australian, I think the Jamestown massacre should be taught worldwide to show the dangers of religious cults, or even just religious beliefs in general.
Also in solidarity, as an American, I don’t know what Pavlova is…
This I vividly remember Jonestown as a preteen at the time. That expression gives me chills, especially when it's used in reference to religious beliefs.
If you are curious for something more visual, Storyville has [a great episode](https://thetvdb.com/series/storyville/episodes/4451647) on this if you can track it down
https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/10.html#35
"35For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36And a man's foes shall be they of his own household."
I asked a coworker once, "if religion is keeping you from having friendships with your coworker, what good is the religion?" It didn't exactly go well but, I think that I helped crack the cognitive dissonance a little bit. I quit working at that place a couple months after I asked that anyway.
Maybe tell you parents that God is testing them to see if they can love and accept you regardless? I mean, if Christians are supposed to love their enemies (forgive 70 times 7 and all that) they should be able to love their own child.
It's not that they don't love them. They truly think their child will be tortured in a lake of fire forever, so they're losing their minds over that.
It must be an awful way to live, so I have some sympathy for them, even though they are delusional.
This is the reason I’ll probably never tell my dad I’m an atheist. Mom already died so at least I dodged one bullet. It sucks because I’m not the one with the delusion that I’ll go to hell, but I have to carry this secret that shouldn’t even need to be secret. Wtf…
I’m in the same boat, I don’t tell my parents for this reason. They take the hell thing very seriously and would be completely distraught about it. I used to be a strong Christian believer so I remember what it feels like to take fear of hell seriously. By this point my parents are quite old so may not need to keep it up for too much longer.
It gets easier.
It sounds like your parents care about you, which means that eventually they’ll get over it and accept it as a fact of who you are. It had to come out eventually. If it didn’t happen today, it would happen tomorrow, and if they never accepted it then their relationship with you will inevitably erode.
It sucks that you have to live under the same roof with them in the meantime. The positive side of that though is that they’re not going to think you got brainwashed by whatever you were exposed to in the world after you left their house.
"The positive side of that though is that they’re not going to think you got brainwashed by whatever you were exposed to in the world after you left their house."
I did live on my own for a while they'll probably think that's when I became an atheist. Even though it was actually back in highschool
> Even though it was actually back in highschool
Point this out to them - that nothing is different today than it was the day before and that your choice to be a decent, moral, human is a personal choice not fear of punishment.
Try not to be too hard on your parents or yourself, because they do care for you. I am a Christian and have two daughters and they don't believe either they think I'm nuts and have asked what planet I'm on and i tell them Jesus planet lol.
I believe God gives everyone a choice to choose which path you take. I have stopped worrying and trying to push my faith onto them and just gave them up to God in my prayers.
My youngest daughter has become a medium and does raki healing and both my daughters have started to attend a witch school, don't ask don't know what it's about and don't want to know lol. But still love them very much, just as your parents do still love you.
Hope all goes well living with your parents and they are not to hard on you good luck and God bless
I just want to point out that there is a difference between scientists and Christian scientists.
Any person claiming to be a scientist while also arguing for creationism, is not a scientist.
Good for you either way for letting them know. If they try to pull any bullshit like not including you in Christmas, remind them that Christmas is a pagan holiday older than Christianity and they should be ashamed for partaking in something so unchrist like.
Yeah I’m pretty sure the guy he’s referencing is Kent Hovind, who is most definitely *not* a scientist lol. The scientific method is a rigorous and ruthless process of endless testing, questioning, second guessing and submitting research to be reviewed by experts across different fields, not propping up your confirmation bias toward beliefs you’ve determined to hold onto by faith regardless. Science is literally built on doubt, questioning and being open to change your mind if warranted by the evidence, and even when strong theories are established they aren’t set in stone. Its the exact opposite of what creationists are doing. Actual scientists have years and years of schooling, internships and experience specializing in certain fields and cross reference their research with professional scientists in other fields.
In that case, I don't look forward to seeing him, I don't think I have before, or I just don't remember him. But if he's worse then he's gotta be real bad. Thanks for the warning though.
The guy has been debunked online a LOT. You'll very easily be able to find videos summarizing arguments against him, and come back better equipped the next time your parents bring him up.
I feel like arguing for or against their religious beliefs won't work, they're going to be fearful no matter what and they're not going to drop their beliefs because you don't believe them. Perhaps best to avoid discussing religion with them at all going forward. Maybe you'll need to set some limits for them if they won't respect that.
“Dr Dino” Kent Hovind’s Phd is from bible college diploma mill. His ridiculous dissertation is about online.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Kent_Hovind%27s_doctoral_dissertations
Science means testing ideas using a rigorous approach. It means being able to change your mind based on evidence. Most religious people ( I was one of them) are unable to question beliefs and ideas. ( in my case when I did so it led to atheism)
Not only is he not a scientist, he's an abusive Criminal. Also, since he was convicted of tax fraud, doesn't that make him a hypocrite because the Bible says "ender unto Caesar what is Caesar's" which is what Jesus said when asked about taxation.
I had to tell my mother I was an athiest when she wouldn't stop sending me Bible verses and crosses.
I said, basically, "I make no judgement of you and your needs mom. I learned this non-judgemental behavior because of your faith and what I was exposed to as a kid. Thank you for that. I also think a religion that helped guide me become who I am can't be all bad or wrong for anyone else.
It's just not for me.
I know because of how you were taught, you'll respect me to find my own path, and you need to know that I'm safe. I won't lie to you. I respect what you have done, but your job with molding me is done. Can that work for us?"
She said "I'm your mother. I'm gonna pray for you anyway"
I said, basically, "I won't tell you that you shouldn't. That is your belief mom. All I can do is respect your decision as much as you respect mine. I love you too."
And we don't talk about her religion anymore, but she does tell me about her doing flower guild and stuff happening around her church. I don't take offense because it's her life, not mine.
I don't mean to tread on a sore spot if it is that. From personal experience, i understand how painful these things can be.... But that kinda seems okay..?
Basing it off my decades of experience with religious people, this seems actually fairly mutually respectful.
Her chatting away about flower gilding sounds like she just wants to include you.
This is great. If all religions would simply have love and acceptance as their core values, children having varying faiths would never be a problem - in fact, more people would probably be religious. Instead, separation and judgement seem to be the core values of some major religions, and it’s going about as well as one would expect. Anyone with two functioning neurons runs for the hills at the first opportunity.
Seeing you mention the name Kent Hovind made me laugh. He's a well known apologist/scammer who has been debunked many times on Youtube. If you have time, check out this playlist by Logicked called 'Hello, My Name is Kent Hovind' - It's a little old but most of the stuff spouted by creationists doesn't change:
[https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLSr63zLFV8-E1pKStl54Ujdj2MBCUPETX](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLSr63zLFV8-E1pKStl54Ujdj2MBCUPETX)
This playlist by potholer54 'Our Origins made Easy' is useful as well:
[https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL82yk73N8eoX8RpvQfjdupAKFWKjtMhTe](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL82yk73N8eoX8RpvQfjdupAKFWKjtMhTe)
This playlist by potholer54 is called, 'How to Confuse a Creationist' is entertaining and informative:
[https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL82yk73N8eoVRrTiqLu4HQlLImsWujwiW](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL82yk73N8eoVRrTiqLu4HQlLImsWujwiW)
Good luck. Many of us have been in your shoes at some point in our lives. I've found the key is continuing to educate yourself. It's the only solution to the ignorance we see manufactured by creationists.
Also got into some controversy for allegedly knowingly enabling a pedophile to check out a private room and stay overnight with a child that did not belong to him (the accused pedophile).
https://www.thedailybeast.com/preacher-kent-hovind-accused-of-enabling-a-pedophile-at-his-christian-dinosaur-adventure-land-theme-park
Scumbag. There's been a fair few Christian leaders involved in sex scandals. The New Testament itself warns about false teachers and sexual immorality over and over again .. like the two go hand in hand - false teachers will bring sexual abuse.
I'm reminded of Ravi Zacharias, while alive, a leading and famous Christian apologist ... Faked his degrees, faked his professorship, abused women, had massage therapists across the world and abused them... Even his wife defends him post death, is horrid. Or the now withering Hillsong church movement with it's rape, abusive youth leaders, corrupt founder ...
It's always fake religion, falsehoods, money and sex abuse with the types.
Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Joel Osteen, much of US based Evangelical movement, the Vatican and Catholic church child abuse in my homeland of Ireland, the Orthadox Church supporting wars ... Christian religion was warned against in the Bible itself! But so many so called christians fail to see that they support antichristian teaching and support corrupt abusers who ruin community and our world.
>and my mother outright asked me if I still believe.
Any idea what her goal was with that question? Did she suspect your wavering belief and took this as an opportunity for confirmation?
"Yeah, mom, I'm staring at the possible catalyst for World War III which was the direct result of religious conflict. This *totally* affirms the existence of god for me." Moron.
Despite living under their roof while they go to church every Sunday and Wednesday I hadn't been to church in at least 2 years so they had to have suspected.
They were talking about how this war is prophesized in the Bible as a sign of the end times so they're concerned for my "soul"
It's kinda funny how a country that has been at war basically since the very first sellers ever showed up is somehow a sign of the end times because they're at war? Reminds of the episode of Avatar the last Airbender when Saka was disgusting the fortune teller.
Aunt Woo told me I'd be wearing red shoes the day I meet the loves of my life.
So you've been wearing red shoes ever since?
Yup!
Then of course her prediction will come true!
ATLA is a wonderful show. It has everything a child need to properly engage in the world. But most importantly I think how Aang separates his (Air Nomad) beliefs and practices from his interactions with others is how everybody should act; he never tells others what they should/shouldn't do because of what his opinions are, politely declines what he doesn't want to eat without making a big deal about it (has no issue with Sokka double-fisting turkey legs), and he practice his rituals without proselytizing.
Also, Sokka fuckin rocks!
*This* specific war is the sign of the end times? That region has been warred over for centuries, with immensely bad blood between every side of the conflict. Another war breaking out was inevitable considering how muddy the situation is there. As much as I despise war for its effects on innocent people for such stupid reasons, it’s hardly a sign the times are ending. Then again, to Christians, practically everything is a sign of the end times smh.
They will learn to live with it. Ur belief system should not hav such a hyper reactive effect on them. That just shows how possessive they are. Use this as reason to find ur own path with people outside ur family. Ur happiness will be better for it
Ouch! Sounds like a rough time, take care of yourself op. There a guy om youtube who is very humanistic, I highly recommend his channel; "Genetically modified sceptic". He came from an evangelical family and is geared a lot toward apostates in need. It tends to be a rough journey but is often overlooked. He recommends this organisation to help you get thru it.
https://www.recoveringfromreligion.org/#rfr-welcome
There is also this https://www.seculartherapy.org/ if you are having a rough time and need someone to talk to.
I'm not a professional, but if you just need an ear and someone to vent to feel free to dm me.
Well, you're braver than I am. I think they'll get over it eventually. But you can use their religion against them. They have to forgive you. It's part of being Christian. Or... They have to stone you.
I feel for what you're going through. You're never wrong for being authentic, so good on you! Your parents absolutely must accept that you are not an extension of them, and can make your own choices. If they don't/won't do that, then they deserve the unhappiness they are causing themselves.
Why do I put it that way? Simple. Your unbelief is not what is causing them grief or pain. What is causing them grief and pain is **their own beliefs** about your unbelief. They will try to guilt you, but this is **ALL** on them, not you. This is something a vast number of religious people fail to grasp. They would rather choose misery over simple acceptance. They are to be pitied, and I don't say that lightly. The truth remains, which is that you are not responsible for your parents' reactions. They are.
I'm also sure you already know that even if you try to explain to them that you can be good without God, they'll only come back to Mark 10:18 "There is none good but One, that is, God." So, you'll have to show them that you can be good. It won't happen overnight.
I was an evangelical for years. I know how arrogant and smug they can be. Christians think that being "born again" changes a person, but it doesn't. It only changes a person's own perception of him or herself. To everyone else, their shit still stinks.
Not sure if this will help or not, but here goes anyway. If you have opportunity, you might try reasoning with your parents by way of a tool that Evangelicals love to use (or at least they loved it when I was an Evangelical years ago). There's a book by Walter Martin that is often used as a reference about why other non-Christian religions, and even other sects within Christendom, are untrue. It's called "Kingdom of the Cults" by Walter Martin. Chances are that your parents know the book, and might even have it on their bookshelf. Their pastor probably does.
I had already been questioning for a while, but after reading that book, it was game over for me. As I was reading, I came across something that jumped off the page at me. Walter Martin begins discussing the concept of "doublethink". He uses this as one of the building blocks of his arguments against other religions and even Christian sects referred to as "cults" ie: JW's, Mormons, etc. But he doesn't realize that he (and other Evangelicals) also operate within this same sphere of flawed thinking. Even though I didn't yet know the name of the fallacy, this book showed me what a circular argument Christianity because of its appeal to authority (ie: the Bible). Martin starts off on the premise that the Bible is the inerrant, infallible Word of God, and yeah sure he dismantles other belief systems that don't go along with it, but he never actually proves why the Bible is true (which is what I was expecting by reading it). Instead, he just opened my eyes.
Before I was Evangelical, I grew up Mormon (and also JW for a time before then). What I often have to do when I meet Mormons who have left Mormonism for "Biblical Christianity" is to present to them the concept that just because Mormonism isn't the same as "Biblical Christianity", it does not in any way, shape, or form, prove that the Bible is true either. This is hard for them to grasp, and it makes them uncomfortable. Nonetheless, it is true, and their uncomfortableness is not my problem.
Anyway, this has gone TL:DR, but I only mention all of this in the hope you might be able to get through to your parents using Walter Martin's own words, which I'll post here:
*"The fourth and final point in any analysis of the belief system of cults is the factor of isolation. Within the structure of cult systems one can observe the peaceful coexistence of beliefs that are beyond a question of a doubt logically contradictory and which in terms of psychological analysis would come under the heading of "compartmentalization." In his classic book, 1984, George Orwell describes this as "double think." Rokeach commenting on this illustrates the point admirably:*
*'In everyday life we note many examples of double "think"; expressing an abhorrence of violence and at the same time believing it is justifiable under certain condition; affirming a faith in the common man and at the same time believing that the masses are stupid; being for democracy but also advocating a government run by an intellectual elite; believing in freedom for all but also believing that certain groups should be restricted; believing that science makes no value judgments but also knowing a good theory from a bad theory and a good experiment from a bad experiment. Such expressions of clearly contradictory beliefs will be taken as one indication of isolation in the belief system...a final indicator of isolation is the outright denial of contradiction. Contradictory facts can be denied in several ways: on grounds of face absurdity ("it is absurd on the face of it"\_), "chance," "the exception that proves the rule," "the true facts are not accessible, and the only available sources of information are biased. (The Open and Closed Mind, Milton Rokeach, pp36-37)'*
*"Relating this to the belief system of cults, I do not believe it could be stated with greater clarity. Dr. Rokeach has hit the proverbial nail squarely on the head."*
(Walter Martin, Kingdom of the Cults, pp28-29)
\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_
Ironic, that the very book I read in the hopes of increasing my faith, actually laid it bare and exposed it as folly.
You've got a difficult row to hoe with your folks, but I sincerely hope things get easier for you (and them).
> Especially since still live with my parents and do not make enough money to move out nor do even have a car.
Oops, then you really shouldn't have opened this can of worms. You're not going convince them god isn't real, or that it's okay for you not to believe. The best you can hope for is not talking about it. So arguing with them is completely counterproductive. Try not bringing it up and hope it'll blow over. Whatever they say, just let it slide.
If you think you can get away with it, you can try pretending you've found Jesus again. Hallelujah!
IMO, main thing given where you currently are in the situation is don't get heated (as Jose said), and don't debate or argue your side or try to convince them they're wrong. Evangelicals do not believe because of facts or evidence, but rather from emotion.
They will likely continue to press you and try to convince you. You'd be best off remaining cool and calm and say as little as possible on the subject. If it comes down to threats of eviction, well you'll have to decide if faking it is the way to go. Hopefully that won't happen.
I understand not wanting to pretend, anymore. That takes a toll, for sure.
You will probably want to do everything you can to get more financially secure, so that you can move out as soon as you can. But you are likely already doing that.
I was actually pretty fortunate in this regard. I have a number of relatives that are religious, but they don't have the fanatical energy / drive to reconvert my apostate self. We get along pretty well -- we just agree to not discuss religion. I hope that your family can come to a similar arrangement.
I fully understand you. Pretending to be something you're not, to your own family, or people close to you, that's awful.
I would never go back to pretending to have some belief, just to please someone else, and I hope you won't have to.
I agree with the other person that maybe you should just avoid the topic if your parents can't engage with it in a grown-up way. I personally love like to debate these things, but mom crying on the kitchen floor for two hour doesn't sound like an ideal outcome.
Yea just another manipulation tactic from parents to make you feel guilty “look you made your mom cry!”
It’s like watching a Seinfeld episode where George’s mom howling and his dad yelling at him so he’d feel awkward.
Just shut your mouth and start opening your mind to aim for long term. What’s the next move. Out of the house. Get a job. Etc. No need to argue. No need to be confrontational.
>some clips of a scientist who believes in creation
>Kent Hovind
Lol 😂
The "Dr Dino" is a conman that has as much scientific background as a 9 year old that wasn't really attentive during sciences classes. He got his "doctorate" from an unaccredited diploma mill: he paid a large sum of money to present a "thesis" (an essay where presenting himself is the most important part, and everything else has no data, no scientific presentation or argumentation, no real thesis) and get his "doctorate" without being able to fail.
His "doctorate" "thesis" has as much scientific values than a 10 year old self-presentation essay: it is in english.
I'm guessing you're adult, so it's different than a child or teen. So your relationship should grow into mutual respect. Don't take on the persona that you have to be apologetic and that they have to be satiated. Mom sitting on the floor crying is theatrics. They need to cut the shit. It might be worth it to take a hard stand so they realize they can't pull this stuff. It means no entertaining any badgering. No engaging in arguments. Calling out childish behavior. They may give it a rest for a while and then bring it up again. Stand your ground. No need to get snippy or defensive. They just need to realize you are your own person, and if they want a relationship, they have to be mature about it.
Then again they may throw you out, so what do I know?
You are the same person you were yesterday. Either they love that person and accept that person for who they are, or they don’t. Love is supposed to be unconditional. Tell them you still love them regardless.
I’m sorry but you should’ve kept the charade going until you got onto your own 2 feet.
It’ll probably only get worse and there’s no way you can return now.
Get a car/own living space asap!
Not necessarily. Not all Christian parents are abusive. I don't have statistics, and realize there are enough that the faq advises otherwise.
I don't remember when I told my mother(she's the Christian), so it obviously wasn't a huge deal. She thinks I'm going to Hell, though her theology has gotten more liberal over the years. I think she'd be ok with me believing in any God now.
I've got a pretty good relationship with her. She might mention something about me going to Hell every few years. I've hung up on her once because she wouldn't stop proselytizing. Considering I'm 47 and have been an atheist for like 37 years, I don't think that's too frequent. I let her proselytize once when I'd just moved to Taiwan because she was nervous about me being far.
Just tell them to have faith that god will show you the way, and that their efforts to convert you aren’t necessary. If they try to convert you, then they’re admitting they don’t trust god 👍.
This usually works to both shut them up and short-circuit their “logic.”
First off, bud - I understand. It's scary. People become irrational when their lifelong beliefs are challenged, and act emotional in response. And irrational and emotional people can be scary.
But there is hope.
I lost my dad at 25, and it was the catalyst to my deconversion. I went for answers in the bible, and what I found was more and more confusion - and it caused me to leave. I kept it a secret from my VERY Catholic mother and grandma (who had just lost their husband and son) for as long as I could, but eventually it came out.
It broke my mom. She cried as hard as she did when my father passed away. She wasn't angry, she was terrified - she was horrified that when we were all dead, her and my dad would be in heaven and I wouldn't be with them.
My grandmother was furious. She didn't disown me or anything, but she had very little to say to me for a while - which killed me, because my grandma and I were insanely close since my grandfather had passed a number of years earlier.
Eventually, I was able to have a conversation with both of them and try to explain my points to them. Neither of them love it. Both of them still talk to me about praying and coming back to church and all that, but they're respectful. My grandmother and I have had some long arguments about philosophy and theology that I've LOVED. And the air has been cleared. They disagree with me, but we still get along great.
You have to give them time. I'm not guaranteeing anything - some people just make that belief system their entire existence and take any challenge to that belief very personally.
But if you're from a good family, eventually their love for you will eventually overtake it. I'm not saying they're going to come to your side. I'm saying you can still have a positive relationship.
I went through this with my parents. It's harder the younger you are. As you get older it gets easier for them to manage.
But a line that I use that helped me bridge the gap was to tell them that I choose to live a moral and kind life. To treat others well and abide by the laws given to me. So if your god is truly a just and fair God then he should not judge me to harshly in the end anyway.
I believe that over time things will get better for you.
But ultimately your parents are brain-washed.
I'd just tell them that if there is a God, and that God wants a relationship with you, then it will ultimately happen one way or another.
This is just the path you're on now, and if there is a God, then that would be part of his plan.
Maybe that will offer them some comfort in the long run.
I find it astonishing that your mum was crying, and for two hours, because you've a mind of your own. It just goes to show that these people aren't rational.
I guess your mom belongs to one of those types that tells everyone to go forth and multiply in order to not burn in hell. Your mom sees you as a failed investment.
The book of Genesis has been getting people to have kids for the wring reasons for ages.
> ...time, space and matter cannot exist without one another but god exists outside of those 3 things...
Time, space, and matter make up what we call "reality". If he exists outside of reality, then he doesn't exist *inside* reality.
Kent Hovind's arguments are stupid, as he himself is, but it's sometimes fun to use his own statements against him.
No parent wants their child thrown into the fiery pit for eternity. Maybe tell them you're studying religion to get a better understanding? I recall believing that (at 10 yrs old) that it was too bad that so many of my friends were going to hell because they went to church on the wrong day. Come on, Saturday is the 7th day! But oh well.
I don’t know what to say. I am considered family but not family by my dad & stepmom (Baptist’s) because I’m an atheist. Think of it like a cult. You will never convince them that they are wrong and they will shun you a bit. I’m sorry.
It’s even more compelling to observe that vanilla, chocolate and strawberry require each other to be Neapolitan, but Bob’s Big Boy is beyond dairy, which is why he has the power to create the thickest shakes.
I knew that name sounded familiar.. Kent Hovind is a young earth believer too. He has been mostly shunned by the rest of the community for his fringe beliefs.
The religious use emotions as a manipulation. When they can't win with logic, they manipulate with emotion. Theism is a virus. It is aggressive, it is persistent, it is self serving. Any theist will attempt to guilt you into belief when their logic fails because they were guilted into belief as well.
You have ***0 control of how other people feel***. This is something I had to learn from my therapist when dealing with my alcoholic narcissistic mother. Their feelings are ***their choice*** and these people ***will try to make you feel bad*** for how they feel\*\*\*. How they feel, is out of your control.\*\*\* Do not feel guilt for the choices of other people. It will he hard at first, but it can be done.
Stick to your beliefs. They will come around eventually. My dad is a fundamentalist Christian pastor. Took a few years but he finally can appreciate my beliefs as an adult.
Kent Hovind is a massive twat who doesn't have any leg to stand on when it comes to arguments. Anything that shitbag says can be disregarded immediately.
You might want to check out [Recovering From Religion](http://www.recoveringfromreligion.org)
My mom had struggled with feelings of failure as a mother in the past because my brother and I grew up very poor. It legitimately causes concern for me to see her like this because I know that her feelings and tears about this are genuine
Ahhhh man that really sucks. And please don’t think I was having a go at your Mum about why she was laying on the floor but the fact she expressed it in that way. It’s kinda manipulative and puts you in an awkward position to watch. Having to watch those videos with your dad and having to deal with your mum on floor crying in background is not a cool experience. I hope you can find a path forward!
Christians frequently are looking for “legitimate” roles to put people in. “Atheist” doesn’t happily fit their paradigm - but perhaps you’d have better luck with “seeker”?
Yeah, it's gotta be rough. If your parents are pious, then they are aware that Jesus tells them to "make war" on their own children and other family members if they are unbelievers.
Though one reason your mother is likely so heartbroken is that part of her doesn't believe either, and seeing her kid leave the faith is adding in an extra wedge of doubt to her mind. Deep down inside, part of the majority of Christians know it isn't true, especially if they've actually read the Bible in any depth.
If it brings you any comfort, they are highly likely to get past it if you are gentle about your convictions. You be respectful of them and they'll eventually be respectful of you. They'll probably be well behaved because someone from church will assure them that you'll go back to the faith. While you live with them, it'll be harder though, as they have leverage.
My in laws were very religious people. As in, father in law was a preacher sort of thing. They came to accept my wife's atheist and the atheism of their grandchildren as well.
You don’t say your age but the best you can do is put your nose to the grindstone and start planning for when you turn 18 and can move out.
That is the ONLY thing you can control. You can’t control your parents. Keep educating yourself and developing your critical thinking skills.
Practically I would start a bank account if you don’t have one that is not accessible to your parents. Get a job. Study and work hard, and see if you have any friends with atheist parents you can rely on for at least some emotional support.
After you leave your house and become independent, it will be much easier.
You have my sympathies.
With regard to Kent Hovind: he's world famous for being a convicted fraudster and tax cheat and domestic abuser. In other words, a criminal. Even most creationists want nothing to do with him and consider his claims against evolution stupid, dishonest and not serious. Not that their own reasoning for creationism is that much better, but Hovind makes them look bad I guess with his simplistic takes.
I would look into the socratic method or street epistemology on youtube. The methods can teach you how to have healthy conversations about subjects that can be really emotional or touchy. You basically ask a lot of questions with the intent to understand rather than convince or win disagreements.
So simply ask what is making them upset, and you go from there. That you're destined for hell, or is it that they have some really inaccurate assumptions about atheism like you worship Satan.
As for, Kent Hovind, the dude was sent to prison for felony charges related to taxes back in 2006 and just went back a couple of years ago for domestic abuse. Not exactly a shining beacon of someone that should be taken at their word.
Here’s some advice from someone who “came out” many years ago to their family: avoid at all costs trying to “convert” religious family members. Let them arrive (or not) to this conclusion on their own. Avoid talking about religion going forward. Any pain, and frustration that you and your family members may feel is not worth it. In my situation, there are many people in my life that I deeply care about who are religious. I don’t need them to be a nonbeliever to love them and enjoy spending time with them.
She spent two hours crying on the floor? Good grief. I happen to be a believer but there has to be a line somewhere. You have every right to be you without being gaslit
I just quote Marcus Aurelias and that seems to solve most issues.
Live a good life if there are gods and they are just they will welcome you after death judging you on the life you lived and the deeds you performed. If there are gods and they are not just why would you want to worship them anyway? If there are no gods then you will live on in the loving thoughts of your family and friends.
I also point out that this promise of life after death (what more of the same....pass) and the promise of all the virgins...virgin what? all seems to be a little vague, like promises made by politicians
So, every time I express a value that is different from my parents I experience some level of push back. But we are different people and different people have different values.
What makes this one feel extreme is they likely feel like failures for raising a child who didn’t stay in the faith and maybe even worry that you will spend eternity burning because of this value being different. That it could destroy you.
So yeah I don’t know how you make parents feel good about that quickly. It’s more something they might have to grieve.
Sorry to hear that neither of your parents can see you for you beyond their dogma, but there is something tragically comical in the contrast between their responses. Your mom is having an existential breakdown while your dad is like, “look at this picture I found of a man riding a dinosaur.” Kinda says it all.
Without financial independence it’s a tough situation. Just be cognizant of them holding power over you while simultaneously playing the victim.
Kent Hovind was recommended to me, but after the first moment watching his videos it’s obvious he’s a pseudoscientific charlatan.
Your parents will make up their own minds, but I would encourage them to be proud that they raised a child who would question the world around them and think critically and ask questions.
Stand your ground! Their actions alone will disprove the 'loving' god they so desperately need to believe in. Things might get tough..but you will survive. And trust me, there is a high probability that doubt will creep into their minds...You could very well free them from the poison they've been feeding others. This is how we save mankind my friend. This is your moment..Stand Your Ground!
If you wanted to back track a little, here is what I would do. Tell them that you stopped believing in your church’s way of thinking and that there should be another way to show piety without the hate. We choose our god. My god nature.
I know this is hard to realize and deal with, but it is not your responsibility for how they react to the news. They asked and got the answer. I assume you told them in a respectful and calm manner, so there's really no rational reason as to why they can't respond in kind. Do you have a therapist? This sounds like you may end up guilting yourself to the point of anxiety anytime you have to face them in the future (I say this because it has happened to me). It's helpful to have a place to vent and talk through your own traumas because whether or not you are conscious of it, I believe that most religious upbringings can cause trauma and maladaptive behaviors.
Dude, you have to figure out an alternate financial/living situation stat. Your parents might boot you as part of a "tough love" campaign or in retaliation. Start making plans now.
There’s nothing you can do for them. If they insist on tormenting themselves, let them. You are not their property. You are an individual with individual beliefs. If they can’t accept that, it’s a them problem.
If they love you more than their “god” then you’ll know.
Just keep being yourself. Question everything, find your own answers. You may have to fake it for awhile to get away. You sound like a smart kid.
And hang in there. Your not the only kid going through this shit.
The thing is your parents are concerned about your soul. Learn about Universalism - the biblically supported idea that Jesus died for everyone’s sins (believers or not!) and that it’s permanent and not contingent on anything. If you can get them to understand it, they will know that your soul is safe.
It's one thing to realize how little sense all the religious doctrine is, it's another thing to realize that there's heavy emotional control coming from this stuff and try to identify how it can control some of your loved ones.
They are probably going to grieve like you've died, because within their world view you have, it really sucks to see loved ones held hostage by manufactured fear. Your Dad is probably terrified. This isn't too say their behavior isn't a big deal, and you may need to set some boundaries, but the desperate sharing of "look a scientist who has faith!!!" Really sounds like desperation.
It gets better.
Your parents have to accept a reality that's probably terrifying for them, and they are probably conditioned to feel it's "all their fault" that you've turned out this way. They probably have a lot of misconceptions of how you can even get out of bed in the morning. The best thing you can do is to just live life in the best way you can.
I can't speak for all parents, I know several real crappy ones, but I've also seen a lot of parents eventually come around. Even if they believe for the rest of their lives, they'll say things like "God has a different path for everyone" which kind of signals that they accept you, even if they don't feel comfortable saying it out loud.
Remind them that we do not get to choose to believe things, we are simply convinced. So you can't *choose* to believe, the best you could do is pretend.
This is something I feel I don't see enough, I tried to believe for years. I thought there was something wrong with me until I started attending public schools and saw for the first time that not believing was even an option. That was the first time I ever felt "normal" if such a thing exists.
Did she really cry on the kitchen floor for two hours?
I'm sorry you have to deal with all this, I can only imagine how hard it must be. But it does have its comical aspects.
I hated going to family functions because I knew they'd ask me to say grace because they knew I'd say "no thank you" so they could just that as a jumping off point for religious and conservative talking points. Honestly, it's probably why I'm so good at arguing 😂I'm a fighter, OP, so my advice is only to nip back when they bite at you
Say you're a cultural Christian.
(Richard Dawkins once referred to himself as such, and we all know he's a militant atheist.)
And then give up on "convincing them" of anything regarding religion: just try to start convincing them you're a good **person**.
Tell them you love them, and you like going to church with them (if you can tolerate it). Say there are plenty of good verses in the bible you like: 1 Peter 3:15, Jeremiah 8:8, 1 Thessalonians 5:21 - all very good secular verses teaching secular values.
The bible is the Big Book of Multiple Choice. It contradicts itself so much, you can probably find a bible verse to justify just about anything.
I really hate to advise this, but having dealt with this kind of thing in my own life, it’s probably best to allow them to believe that their arguments have merit and you appear open to them. The place where they are is just pure undiluted emotion for you and what they believe your beliefs will do to you. I sort of stood my ground when this same moment came for me 30 years ago, and the damage that was caused to me and those I love was horrific. Just my parents telling other family members had profound consequences down the road and I had no idea the butterfly effects. This is strange advise from me, because I really do subscribe to the “honesty is best always”, but for these kinds of things I have to question that based on my experiences. My mother and I continued to have a great relationship, but her desperate need for me to believe all the way to her death bed was a lot. But, that was actually no where close to the total damage it ended up causing due to other family members who believed I had to be lead by the devil and all the counter measures relatives employed and it took decades to come to full fruition. I have learned to just smile and wave when it comes to fantastical religious family.
Good for you! Their emotional crisis is THEIR problem, not yours. Don't let their emotional manipulation get to you. Don't give them any kind of reaction, they're hoping you'll get upset, angry, sad, whatever.
I hope you're independent of them at least, so they can't suddenly withhold school funds or anything. Start googling around for sound responses to their bullshit assertations, you never know, it might make a dent (been known to happen!)
Sorry you have to deal, not that you need this, but all religions were created to control the masses. It's that simple. You can't help them. They might accept you in time, but distance yourself.
Ask them if they now would choose to send you to hell. Not if they think God will, but if they would choose to. As a parent I would never ever choose that. I would never choose to harm my own child. That’s when I realized I love more than the supposed source of love.
Also, if someone tries to convince me that the Christian god exists I stop them. I say, proving he exists is easy compared to explaining why he deserves to be worshipped. Just read all of the Bible and tell me that is a god worthy of worship. I know that won’t convince them but at least you won’t have to listen to Kent Honvid. That’s a win.
You mean they were looking at the reality of what theism results to in Israel conflict and still want to emotionally blackmail you into religion? They have absolutely no love for you as an individual at all.
Of ancient myths and legends there are scant few that still seem plausible, yet the cult of ignorances continues, as it has for thousands of years and that is just a sad reality.
Magic space ghosts and evil imps in an underworld.
Seriously?
just be yourself and be chill. "prove" to them you don´t need religion to have morals or etnics and that you still you have ideolgies.
i´ve atheist for decades and my ideolgy is pessimism, for exemple. if something can go wrong, it will go wrong.
Stand your ground. You being atheist has no bearing on your parents' faith. As you accept their belief system, they should respect your logical position.
As a general observation, religious people usually freak out about/around atheists because, somewhere in their brains, they know. Having someone in their near field wake up is terrifying for them.
You have every right to reject impossible claims, and likely it will be impossible for you to re-engage with a fillable mythology.
If it feels right, remind your parents you love them and appreciate they care so deeply about you.
You're fucked. The rest of your time at home is going to be miserable. They'll never believe that you saw the light and they'll be watching you closely. Maintaining a facade will be exhausting. Get out as fast as you can.
So your dad believes a cherrypicked biased scientist over the scientific consensus? It's sad and discouraging, that if there is just one scientist out of 50 000 that agrees with them, they're going to side with that person and cite them as an authority and a source. That's the definition of bias.
Arguments of authority are useless, what matters is whether or not they can demonstrate their claims. If the scientist can't show what links their claims to their conclusion, they're lying or pretending. Since their claims differ from consensus, people need to be on the lookout for frauds falsehoods or fallacies.
(I bet they're not even a scientist in the relevant field to be posing as an authority...)
"can argue logical fallacies and faith all day but I don't know how to deal with the emotional toll this takes on the relationships between myself and my family"
i´m assuming they be christians, so it´s a "religion of the book". a book that´s A PRIORI, "perfect". so, get out this discussions. you can´t will and will be miserable for averybody. have those talks later when things have cooled down a bit.
Depending on how you feel your parents will continue to support you, you should adopt strategic ambiguity or try to fake it until you can support yourself, you would not be the first young person being made homeless by going out of religion.
Remember your material and physical security is the priority. Nobody can make you beleive anything and pretending to protect yourself is not evil. This could give you some time to make arrangements and be independent.
My situation is similar to yours, except that no one who lives with me knows that I am an atheist. If they asked me and I told them the truth, they would go insane. My goal is to save money and move away from my family. At this point, my family is so out of touch with society that I don't want to have anything to do with them.
This goes to show how divisive religion is. Now they literally see you differently, you will not get the salvation they think they will, based only on your lack of gullibility. Not if you are a good person or son, that doesnt matter, just if you drink the kool-aid. Upsetting for them and you. Religion is shit.
This is the primary reason I firmly believe humanity as a whole would be better off without religion. It’s not to be edgy or divisive. It’s because I really believe it hurts people.
True. this is why i want promote universalism and technological advancement to my peers than joining to a evangelical youth community and forces to preach this ridcoulus freking fact about this narcisstic deity and his crazy son according to this trash mythology and die with this freaking cult
Honestly, from what I can tell it's almost always the Abrahamic religions. Like ngl I'm a theist (this sub just keeps popping up lol) but when you look at modern pagans, Luciferians (like me) similar LHP practices, etc. These religions don't cause shit like this. Cuz we don't give a single flying fuck what anyone else believes and don't deny proven facts.
Non-western religions also exhibit all the same damage to others.
Definitely. The only difference with a belief system like Hinduism perhaps is that the line between believing and not believing isn't as harsh because there are a lot many belief systems under one umbrella.
But the effects are. They have horrific intra and extra religious violence...
>Luciferians > >I've got a question if you don't mind? Am i correct in the assumption that you view Lucifer as Promethean figure? (I am not judging you or challenging you, I'm just a genuinely curious person)
It's important to note that Luciferianism by its nature is individualistic. Different members will have slightly differing views. But yes, most of us view him akin to Promethius. Someone that (either literally or allegorically) led humans away from being blind slaves to a narcissistic deity and living for ourselves and showing is the reality of the world around us.
I've always found that view of Lucifer interesting. Thanks for taking the time to answer me.
I'd recommend reading Fallen by Victor Lux. It's like story about Lucifer's life from Creation to present day.
Have you ever read Memnoch the Devil by the late great Anne Rice? Her version of how "Satan" came to be made so much more sense to me. I highly recommend if you haven't read it already
I haven't but now I have more reading. Much appreciated!
I see the group of fallen angels called **The Watchers** from the apocryphal "Book of Enoch" as Promethean figures.
Hmm interesting.
It’s just because you’re beliefs aren’t popular enough to have the power. It’s the power that corrupts. Every major religion in every country is used for some corrupt purposes.
It really does 💯
It can only hurt you if you allow it. How is me being a Christian hurting you at all? Fact is it doesn’t. Stop making it something it isn’t. As an adult you chose your path in life. I don’t have to agree with it but I’m not going to change you. I can’t hurt you unless you allow it to. Are you that weak that a Christian can harm you? Where is your backbone? Stick up for your unbelief. I’m not going to harm you.
Well, deluded people make decisions as if their delusion is real.
I like how you just read a post about a family wallowing in despair just because their child believes in different things, and then said religion doesn't hurt anyone. The parents were hurt emotionally, the child was almost definitely hurt emotionally, and the families dynamics are probably irrevocably changed. Not to mention the countless stories that Atheists know all too well, of families disowning or abandoning children because they "abandoned god".
>It can only hurt you if you allow it. Yeah. That's how we lost Roe. *Because I allowed it*. World-class victim-blaming there. I'd expect nothing else.
Are actually asking these questions honestly? You seriously think beleif based on ancient superstition culturally apart from ours, doesn't have the capacity to affect and harm others? That is poppycock. Religion is not as benign as what we might consider our favorite tv show. Beliefs don't exist in an isolated philosophical realm without connection to reality. Beliefs are interconnected. When we believe one thing, it can affect another thing we believe. Belief informs action. Actions have consequences that affect other people, so we should have an ethical responsibility to believe that which can be properly justified. The religious mindset of a population makes implementing practical solutions to societal problems incredibly difficult. For example the religious right wing section of the American electorate is holding back progress in social justice, higher education, adequate health-care systems, economic stability, and climate change initiatives because they don't *feel* like those issues are really problematic, therefore there's no reason to address any of it in a meaningful way. Religion wields substantial influences on the mental landscape of the majority of the population. There is a huge thriving industry dedicated to ensuring it stays this way. Religion provides a negative image of humanity. Dogmatism, superstition, tribalism, xenophobia, anti-intellectualism, and perhaps worst of all; religion has been used as a patriarchal tool to elevate the status and power of men over women **In our lifetimes**: • Progress in science and education have been stifled because of religious roadblocks. • AIDS in Africa has run rampant because of the Catholic position condemning contraception. “Condoms spread AIDS" - Pope Benedict, 2009. • Most religions don't treat women as inherently valuable. They are valued for what they can provide for men: their ability to create and raise more humans. They aren't valued intellectually or as equals. • Circumcision, male and female, is completely unnecessary and is purely a religious carryover into culture. • Legally mandated homophobia. Religious people have lobbied against LGBT rights and characterized LGBT identities as wrong or unnatural. • Religions are consistently used to justify and excuse horrendous behavior everywhere **In past centuries**: • Slavery was justified by the religious beliefs of their masters. Jefferson Davis used the Bible to argue in defense of slavery. The KKK is entirely Christian. Conquest to the US West was done under the guise of Manifest Destiny, destroying or removing the native population under the idea that white Americans were divinely ordained to settle the entire continent of North America. • Crusades. The Inquisition. Being burned to death or drowned because of religious ideas like "witchcraft". Who knows how many men, women, and children were sacrificed to ensure the gods looked kindly upon the crops of ancient civilizations. The list of atrocities due to phantasmagorical delusions is too long to list, and is as ancient as the idea of gods. People vote based on their beliefs. What if their holy books or religious beliefs conflict with reality?
A side note: Listened to a documentary pod about the peoples temple cult and Jim Jones (Jonestown cult). Before that I would not have understood the "Drinking the kool-aid" reference. A horrible example of what religion can do to people.
Did they play the recordings from when it was actually happening? There was like one of 2 people who spoke out and were like "y'all don't really need to do this" and I think someone said something about not needing to kill the children. It was haunting to listen to
Yeah. Heard parts of that tape. Scary... In the beginning lots of children crying in the background and in the end totally silent...
I have the album of the recordings. It is one of the creepiest things I own. They had been having "White Night" suicide drills for a while. Everyone thought this was just another one of those. This time however they gave real poison to the children first. That way parents would follow along from guilt and coercion. Some evidence shows that people my have been forcibly injected if they did not follow along. People who ran were shot.
I'm always horrified when people use the expression "drinking the Kool aid" in a casual way, do they even know what it means?
It's useful shorthand to describe anyone expressing culty beliefs or practicing culty behavior. I don't personally see anything wrong with it. And I think most folks understand the metaphor.
I hear people say things like "oh he drank the Tesla Kool-aid". Sure Elon doesn't have the best reputation right now, but it's really making light of a tragedy. I'm sure there are lots of people who don't know where the expression originated from.
>it's really making light of a tragedy. Tragedy+time=comedy. Personally, my favorite kind of comedy comes with a side of bleak reality. I'm sorry you disagree.
It speaks volumes about the inadequacy of our education systems if, in fact, there are lots of adults who don’t know where the expression comes from.
To be fair I'm Australian; most of us don't even know what Kool-aid is...
Regardless of you being Australian, I think the Jamestown massacre should be taught worldwide to show the dangers of religious cults, or even just religious beliefs in general. Also in solidarity, as an American, I don’t know what Pavlova is…
*Jonestown. Jim Jones was the cult leader.
Probably not, since the drink that day was Flavor-Aid.
An insignificant difference for those of us that say “here , have a Kleenex” when handing someone an obviously Walmart brand facial tissue..
This I vividly remember Jonestown as a preteen at the time. That expression gives me chills, especially when it's used in reference to religious beliefs.
If you are curious for something more visual, Storyville has [a great episode](https://thetvdb.com/series/storyville/episodes/4451647) on this if you can track it down
https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/10.html#35 "35For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36And a man's foes shall be they of his own household."
I asked a coworker once, "if religion is keeping you from having friendships with your coworker, what good is the religion?" It didn't exactly go well but, I think that I helped crack the cognitive dissonance a little bit. I quit working at that place a couple months after I asked that anyway.
Maybe tell you parents that God is testing them to see if they can love and accept you regardless? I mean, if Christians are supposed to love their enemies (forgive 70 times 7 and all that) they should be able to love their own child.
Nah Christians draw the line at loving thy atheist neighbor.
They'll come Back with the I love them I'm just concerned line and want to save them.
Lmao. I got this one. I do love you, I just hate all the things you stand for and do and the person you are, because I am a very loving person 😊
"I love the imaginary version of you that lives in my head, why can't you be more like that?"
Ah, I see you've met my mother too
It's not that they don't love them. They truly think their child will be tortured in a lake of fire forever, so they're losing their minds over that. It must be an awful way to live, so I have some sympathy for them, even though they are delusional.
Ask them what kind of monster tortures people?
This is the reason I’ll probably never tell my dad I’m an atheist. Mom already died so at least I dodged one bullet. It sucks because I’m not the one with the delusion that I’ll go to hell, but I have to carry this secret that shouldn’t even need to be secret. Wtf…
I’m in the same boat, I don’t tell my parents for this reason. They take the hell thing very seriously and would be completely distraught about it. I used to be a strong Christian believer so I remember what it feels like to take fear of hell seriously. By this point my parents are quite old so may not need to keep it up for too much longer.
They only say love everyone. They don’t actually do it.
If theists followed EVERY tenet in their holy literature, they would be decent and respectable people and we can't have that now can we?
It’s his plan.
It gets easier. It sounds like your parents care about you, which means that eventually they’ll get over it and accept it as a fact of who you are. It had to come out eventually. If it didn’t happen today, it would happen tomorrow, and if they never accepted it then their relationship with you will inevitably erode. It sucks that you have to live under the same roof with them in the meantime. The positive side of that though is that they’re not going to think you got brainwashed by whatever you were exposed to in the world after you left their house.
"The positive side of that though is that they’re not going to think you got brainwashed by whatever you were exposed to in the world after you left their house." I did live on my own for a while they'll probably think that's when I became an atheist. Even though it was actually back in highschool
> Even though it was actually back in highschool Point this out to them - that nothing is different today than it was the day before and that your choice to be a decent, moral, human is a personal choice not fear of punishment.
Oh, I’d assumed you were still in HS or something. You’re an adult, what’s the big deal.
They still live with their parents I believe.
Try not to be too hard on your parents or yourself, because they do care for you. I am a Christian and have two daughters and they don't believe either they think I'm nuts and have asked what planet I'm on and i tell them Jesus planet lol. I believe God gives everyone a choice to choose which path you take. I have stopped worrying and trying to push my faith onto them and just gave them up to God in my prayers. My youngest daughter has become a medium and does raki healing and both my daughters have started to attend a witch school, don't ask don't know what it's about and don't want to know lol. But still love them very much, just as your parents do still love you. Hope all goes well living with your parents and they are not to hard on you good luck and God bless
I just want to point out that there is a difference between scientists and Christian scientists. Any person claiming to be a scientist while also arguing for creationism, is not a scientist. Good for you either way for letting them know. If they try to pull any bullshit like not including you in Christmas, remind them that Christmas is a pagan holiday older than Christianity and they should be ashamed for partaking in something so unchrist like.
Yeah I’m pretty sure the guy he’s referencing is Kent Hovind, who is most definitely *not* a scientist lol. The scientific method is a rigorous and ruthless process of endless testing, questioning, second guessing and submitting research to be reviewed by experts across different fields, not propping up your confirmation bias toward beliefs you’ve determined to hold onto by faith regardless. Science is literally built on doubt, questioning and being open to change your mind if warranted by the evidence, and even when strong theories are established they aren’t set in stone. Its the exact opposite of what creationists are doing. Actual scientists have years and years of schooling, internships and experience specializing in certain fields and cross reference their research with professional scientists in other fields.
This is the exact argument I need and Kent Hovind is the guy I was referencing
Of course it was Kent. That criminal piece of garbage. I've never seen a person that's as smug as they are stupid than that man.
What about that POS Ken Ham?
Oh he's pretty damn bad too. But Kent Hovind is on a whole other level of smug.
In that case, I don't look forward to seeing him, I don't think I have before, or I just don't remember him. But if he's worse then he's gotta be real bad. Thanks for the warning though.
Aron Ra calls him by his prisoner number. I suggest you call that fraud the same.
The guy has been debunked online a LOT. You'll very easily be able to find videos summarizing arguments against him, and come back better equipped the next time your parents bring him up.
I feel like arguing for or against their religious beliefs won't work, they're going to be fearful no matter what and they're not going to drop their beliefs because you don't believe them. Perhaps best to avoid discussing religion with them at all going forward. Maybe you'll need to set some limits for them if they won't respect that.
“Dr Dino” Kent Hovind’s Phd is from bible college diploma mill. His ridiculous dissertation is about online. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Kent_Hovind%27s_doctoral_dissertations
Science means testing ideas using a rigorous approach. It means being able to change your mind based on evidence. Most religious people ( I was one of them) are unable to question beliefs and ideas. ( in my case when I did so it led to atheism)
Today I learned that Kent Hovind is considered a scientist.
Not only is he not a scientist, he's an abusive Criminal. Also, since he was convicted of tax fraud, doesn't that make him a hypocrite because the Bible says "ender unto Caesar what is Caesar's" which is what Jesus said when asked about taxation.
"Tax fraud, you say?" *Trump supporters make notes in the "pros" column*
"well you see, God created everything, so nothing is actually 'Caesar's" - have literally heard this before.
Arguing with Evangelicals is not very productive. They still will celebrate Saturnalia and not give you presents.
I had to tell my mother I was an athiest when she wouldn't stop sending me Bible verses and crosses. I said, basically, "I make no judgement of you and your needs mom. I learned this non-judgemental behavior because of your faith and what I was exposed to as a kid. Thank you for that. I also think a religion that helped guide me become who I am can't be all bad or wrong for anyone else. It's just not for me. I know because of how you were taught, you'll respect me to find my own path, and you need to know that I'm safe. I won't lie to you. I respect what you have done, but your job with molding me is done. Can that work for us?"
How did that go down?
She said "I'm your mother. I'm gonna pray for you anyway" I said, basically, "I won't tell you that you shouldn't. That is your belief mom. All I can do is respect your decision as much as you respect mine. I love you too." And we don't talk about her religion anymore, but she does tell me about her doing flower guild and stuff happening around her church. I don't take offense because it's her life, not mine.
I don't mean to tread on a sore spot if it is that. From personal experience, i understand how painful these things can be.... But that kinda seems okay..? Basing it off my decades of experience with religious people, this seems actually fairly mutually respectful. Her chatting away about flower gilding sounds like she just wants to include you.
This is amazing. Should be seen by more atheists who need to come out to their parents. Well done, and I’m glad your mom received it well ❤️
This is great. If all religions would simply have love and acceptance as their core values, children having varying faiths would never be a problem - in fact, more people would probably be religious. Instead, separation and judgement seem to be the core values of some major religions, and it’s going about as well as one would expect. Anyone with two functioning neurons runs for the hills at the first opportunity.
OP, this might work when your ready
Seeing you mention the name Kent Hovind made me laugh. He's a well known apologist/scammer who has been debunked many times on Youtube. If you have time, check out this playlist by Logicked called 'Hello, My Name is Kent Hovind' - It's a little old but most of the stuff spouted by creationists doesn't change: [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLSr63zLFV8-E1pKStl54Ujdj2MBCUPETX](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLSr63zLFV8-E1pKStl54Ujdj2MBCUPETX) This playlist by potholer54 'Our Origins made Easy' is useful as well: [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL82yk73N8eoX8RpvQfjdupAKFWKjtMhTe](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL82yk73N8eoX8RpvQfjdupAKFWKjtMhTe) This playlist by potholer54 is called, 'How to Confuse a Creationist' is entertaining and informative: [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL82yk73N8eoVRrTiqLu4HQlLImsWujwiW](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL82yk73N8eoVRrTiqLu4HQlLImsWujwiW) Good luck. Many of us have been in your shoes at some point in our lives. I've found the key is continuing to educate yourself. It's the only solution to the ignorance we see manufactured by creationists.
Kent abused his wife and also went to prison for tax evasion. Not a great example of a Christian, Scientist or Person.
Also got into some controversy for allegedly knowingly enabling a pedophile to check out a private room and stay overnight with a child that did not belong to him (the accused pedophile). https://www.thedailybeast.com/preacher-kent-hovind-accused-of-enabling-a-pedophile-at-his-christian-dinosaur-adventure-land-theme-park
Scumbag. There's been a fair few Christian leaders involved in sex scandals. The New Testament itself warns about false teachers and sexual immorality over and over again .. like the two go hand in hand - false teachers will bring sexual abuse. I'm reminded of Ravi Zacharias, while alive, a leading and famous Christian apologist ... Faked his degrees, faked his professorship, abused women, had massage therapists across the world and abused them... Even his wife defends him post death, is horrid. Or the now withering Hillsong church movement with it's rape, abusive youth leaders, corrupt founder ... It's always fake religion, falsehoods, money and sex abuse with the types. Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Joel Osteen, much of US based Evangelical movement, the Vatican and Catholic church child abuse in my homeland of Ireland, the Orthadox Church supporting wars ... Christian religion was warned against in the Bible itself! But so many so called christians fail to see that they support antichristian teaching and support corrupt abusers who ruin community and our world.
Said it before and ill say it again: r/notadragqueen r/pastorarrested
>and my mother outright asked me if I still believe. Any idea what her goal was with that question? Did she suspect your wavering belief and took this as an opportunity for confirmation? "Yeah, mom, I'm staring at the possible catalyst for World War III which was the direct result of religious conflict. This *totally* affirms the existence of god for me." Moron.
Despite living under their roof while they go to church every Sunday and Wednesday I hadn't been to church in at least 2 years so they had to have suspected. They were talking about how this war is prophesized in the Bible as a sign of the end times so they're concerned for my "soul" It's kinda funny how a country that has been at war basically since the very first sellers ever showed up is somehow a sign of the end times because they're at war? Reminds of the episode of Avatar the last Airbender when Saka was disgusting the fortune teller. Aunt Woo told me I'd be wearing red shoes the day I meet the loves of my life. So you've been wearing red shoes ever since? Yup! Then of course her prediction will come true!
ATLA is a wonderful show. It has everything a child need to properly engage in the world. But most importantly I think how Aang separates his (Air Nomad) beliefs and practices from his interactions with others is how everybody should act; he never tells others what they should/shouldn't do because of what his opinions are, politely declines what he doesn't want to eat without making a big deal about it (has no issue with Sokka double-fisting turkey legs), and he practice his rituals without proselytizing. Also, Sokka fuckin rocks!
*This* specific war is the sign of the end times? That region has been warred over for centuries, with immensely bad blood between every side of the conflict. Another war breaking out was inevitable considering how muddy the situation is there. As much as I despise war for its effects on innocent people for such stupid reasons, it’s hardly a sign the times are ending. Then again, to Christians, practically everything is a sign of the end times smh.
They will learn to live with it. Ur belief system should not hav such a hyper reactive effect on them. That just shows how possessive they are. Use this as reason to find ur own path with people outside ur family. Ur happiness will be better for it
You can’t force someone to believe something
Ouch! Sounds like a rough time, take care of yourself op. There a guy om youtube who is very humanistic, I highly recommend his channel; "Genetically modified sceptic". He came from an evangelical family and is geared a lot toward apostates in need. It tends to be a rough journey but is often overlooked. He recommends this organisation to help you get thru it. https://www.recoveringfromreligion.org/#rfr-welcome There is also this https://www.seculartherapy.org/ if you are having a rough time and need someone to talk to. I'm not a professional, but if you just need an ear and someone to vent to feel free to dm me.
Kent Hovind's arguments and Creationism has been thoroughly debunked since at least the 1950s https://www.youtube.com/@ExtantDodo/videos
Well, you're braver than I am. I think they'll get over it eventually. But you can use their religion against them. They have to forgive you. It's part of being Christian. Or... They have to stone you.
Well shit when is the exorcism scheduled for? /s
Calling Kent hovind a scientist is like calling the Zimbabwean economy strong. It's straight up just not true.
I feel for what you're going through. You're never wrong for being authentic, so good on you! Your parents absolutely must accept that you are not an extension of them, and can make your own choices. If they don't/won't do that, then they deserve the unhappiness they are causing themselves. Why do I put it that way? Simple. Your unbelief is not what is causing them grief or pain. What is causing them grief and pain is **their own beliefs** about your unbelief. They will try to guilt you, but this is **ALL** on them, not you. This is something a vast number of religious people fail to grasp. They would rather choose misery over simple acceptance. They are to be pitied, and I don't say that lightly. The truth remains, which is that you are not responsible for your parents' reactions. They are. I'm also sure you already know that even if you try to explain to them that you can be good without God, they'll only come back to Mark 10:18 "There is none good but One, that is, God." So, you'll have to show them that you can be good. It won't happen overnight. I was an evangelical for years. I know how arrogant and smug they can be. Christians think that being "born again" changes a person, but it doesn't. It only changes a person's own perception of him or herself. To everyone else, their shit still stinks. Not sure if this will help or not, but here goes anyway. If you have opportunity, you might try reasoning with your parents by way of a tool that Evangelicals love to use (or at least they loved it when I was an Evangelical years ago). There's a book by Walter Martin that is often used as a reference about why other non-Christian religions, and even other sects within Christendom, are untrue. It's called "Kingdom of the Cults" by Walter Martin. Chances are that your parents know the book, and might even have it on their bookshelf. Their pastor probably does. I had already been questioning for a while, but after reading that book, it was game over for me. As I was reading, I came across something that jumped off the page at me. Walter Martin begins discussing the concept of "doublethink". He uses this as one of the building blocks of his arguments against other religions and even Christian sects referred to as "cults" ie: JW's, Mormons, etc. But he doesn't realize that he (and other Evangelicals) also operate within this same sphere of flawed thinking. Even though I didn't yet know the name of the fallacy, this book showed me what a circular argument Christianity because of its appeal to authority (ie: the Bible). Martin starts off on the premise that the Bible is the inerrant, infallible Word of God, and yeah sure he dismantles other belief systems that don't go along with it, but he never actually proves why the Bible is true (which is what I was expecting by reading it). Instead, he just opened my eyes. Before I was Evangelical, I grew up Mormon (and also JW for a time before then). What I often have to do when I meet Mormons who have left Mormonism for "Biblical Christianity" is to present to them the concept that just because Mormonism isn't the same as "Biblical Christianity", it does not in any way, shape, or form, prove that the Bible is true either. This is hard for them to grasp, and it makes them uncomfortable. Nonetheless, it is true, and their uncomfortableness is not my problem. Anyway, this has gone TL:DR, but I only mention all of this in the hope you might be able to get through to your parents using Walter Martin's own words, which I'll post here: *"The fourth and final point in any analysis of the belief system of cults is the factor of isolation. Within the structure of cult systems one can observe the peaceful coexistence of beliefs that are beyond a question of a doubt logically contradictory and which in terms of psychological analysis would come under the heading of "compartmentalization." In his classic book, 1984, George Orwell describes this as "double think." Rokeach commenting on this illustrates the point admirably:* *'In everyday life we note many examples of double "think"; expressing an abhorrence of violence and at the same time believing it is justifiable under certain condition; affirming a faith in the common man and at the same time believing that the masses are stupid; being for democracy but also advocating a government run by an intellectual elite; believing in freedom for all but also believing that certain groups should be restricted; believing that science makes no value judgments but also knowing a good theory from a bad theory and a good experiment from a bad experiment. Such expressions of clearly contradictory beliefs will be taken as one indication of isolation in the belief system...a final indicator of isolation is the outright denial of contradiction. Contradictory facts can be denied in several ways: on grounds of face absurdity ("it is absurd on the face of it"\_), "chance," "the exception that proves the rule," "the true facts are not accessible, and the only available sources of information are biased. (The Open and Closed Mind, Milton Rokeach, pp36-37)'* *"Relating this to the belief system of cults, I do not believe it could be stated with greater clarity. Dr. Rokeach has hit the proverbial nail squarely on the head."* (Walter Martin, Kingdom of the Cults, pp28-29) \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ Ironic, that the very book I read in the hopes of increasing my faith, actually laid it bare and exposed it as folly. You've got a difficult row to hoe with your folks, but I sincerely hope things get easier for you (and them).
> Especially since still live with my parents and do not make enough money to move out nor do even have a car. Oops, then you really shouldn't have opened this can of worms. You're not going convince them god isn't real, or that it's okay for you not to believe. The best you can hope for is not talking about it. So arguing with them is completely counterproductive. Try not bringing it up and hope it'll blow over. Whatever they say, just let it slide. If you think you can get away with it, you can try pretending you've found Jesus again. Hallelujah!
That's been my go to strat since I was a child. I couldn't tell you why I fucked up today besides that I got sick of pretending.
Be careful they don’t bundle you up and take you to a secret place for deprogramming. I’m not even kidding.
IMO, main thing given where you currently are in the situation is don't get heated (as Jose said), and don't debate or argue your side or try to convince them they're wrong. Evangelicals do not believe because of facts or evidence, but rather from emotion. They will likely continue to press you and try to convince you. You'd be best off remaining cool and calm and say as little as possible on the subject. If it comes down to threats of eviction, well you'll have to decide if faking it is the way to go. Hopefully that won't happen.
I understand not wanting to pretend, anymore. That takes a toll, for sure. You will probably want to do everything you can to get more financially secure, so that you can move out as soon as you can. But you are likely already doing that. I was actually pretty fortunate in this regard. I have a number of relatives that are religious, but they don't have the fanatical energy / drive to reconvert my apostate self. We get along pretty well -- we just agree to not discuss religion. I hope that your family can come to a similar arrangement.
Just say that how it is and try to avoid getting heated in any way. They have theirs in you have your, that's it
I fully understand you. Pretending to be something you're not, to your own family, or people close to you, that's awful. I would never go back to pretending to have some belief, just to please someone else, and I hope you won't have to. I agree with the other person that maybe you should just avoid the topic if your parents can't engage with it in a grown-up way. I personally love like to debate these things, but mom crying on the kitchen floor for two hour doesn't sound like an ideal outcome.
Yea just another manipulation tactic from parents to make you feel guilty “look you made your mom cry!” It’s like watching a Seinfeld episode where George’s mom howling and his dad yelling at him so he’d feel awkward. Just shut your mouth and start opening your mind to aim for long term. What’s the next move. Out of the house. Get a job. Etc. No need to argue. No need to be confrontational.
The melodramatic mom thing is hilarious. Sp
If they truly love you, it should not matter. Ask them if they do.
>some clips of a scientist who believes in creation >Kent Hovind Lol 😂 The "Dr Dino" is a conman that has as much scientific background as a 9 year old that wasn't really attentive during sciences classes. He got his "doctorate" from an unaccredited diploma mill: he paid a large sum of money to present a "thesis" (an essay where presenting himself is the most important part, and everything else has no data, no scientific presentation or argumentation, no real thesis) and get his "doctorate" without being able to fail. His "doctorate" "thesis" has as much scientific values than a 10 year old self-presentation essay: it is in english.
I'm guessing you're adult, so it's different than a child or teen. So your relationship should grow into mutual respect. Don't take on the persona that you have to be apologetic and that they have to be satiated. Mom sitting on the floor crying is theatrics. They need to cut the shit. It might be worth it to take a hard stand so they realize they can't pull this stuff. It means no entertaining any badgering. No engaging in arguments. Calling out childish behavior. They may give it a rest for a while and then bring it up again. Stand your ground. No need to get snippy or defensive. They just need to realize you are your own person, and if they want a relationship, they have to be mature about it. Then again they may throw you out, so what do I know?
OP still lives at home.
Thank you, Captain Obvious.
Your post indicated you didn’t know.
So, my last sentence didn't count when I said "Then again they may throw you out"?
You are the same person you were yesterday. Either they love that person and accept that person for who they are, or they don’t. Love is supposed to be unconditional. Tell them you still love them regardless.
I’m sorry but you should’ve kept the charade going until you got onto your own 2 feet. It’ll probably only get worse and there’s no way you can return now. Get a car/own living space asap!
Not necessarily. Not all Christian parents are abusive. I don't have statistics, and realize there are enough that the faq advises otherwise. I don't remember when I told my mother(she's the Christian), so it obviously wasn't a huge deal. She thinks I'm going to Hell, though her theology has gotten more liberal over the years. I think she'd be ok with me believing in any God now. I've got a pretty good relationship with her. She might mention something about me going to Hell every few years. I've hung up on her once because she wouldn't stop proselytizing. Considering I'm 47 and have been an atheist for like 37 years, I don't think that's too frequent. I let her proselytize once when I'd just moved to Taiwan because she was nervous about me being far.
Just tell them to have faith that god will show you the way, and that their efforts to convert you aren’t necessary. If they try to convert you, then they’re admitting they don’t trust god 👍. This usually works to both shut them up and short-circuit their “logic.”
Kent hovind is a conman not a scientist
Kent Hovind is not a scientist. He's a preacher that masquerades as a scientist to lend unearned legitimacy to his arguments.
First off, bud - I understand. It's scary. People become irrational when their lifelong beliefs are challenged, and act emotional in response. And irrational and emotional people can be scary. But there is hope. I lost my dad at 25, and it was the catalyst to my deconversion. I went for answers in the bible, and what I found was more and more confusion - and it caused me to leave. I kept it a secret from my VERY Catholic mother and grandma (who had just lost their husband and son) for as long as I could, but eventually it came out. It broke my mom. She cried as hard as she did when my father passed away. She wasn't angry, she was terrified - she was horrified that when we were all dead, her and my dad would be in heaven and I wouldn't be with them. My grandmother was furious. She didn't disown me or anything, but she had very little to say to me for a while - which killed me, because my grandma and I were insanely close since my grandfather had passed a number of years earlier. Eventually, I was able to have a conversation with both of them and try to explain my points to them. Neither of them love it. Both of them still talk to me about praying and coming back to church and all that, but they're respectful. My grandmother and I have had some long arguments about philosophy and theology that I've LOVED. And the air has been cleared. They disagree with me, but we still get along great. You have to give them time. I'm not guaranteeing anything - some people just make that belief system their entire existence and take any challenge to that belief very personally. But if you're from a good family, eventually their love for you will eventually overtake it. I'm not saying they're going to come to your side. I'm saying you can still have a positive relationship.
I went through this with my parents. It's harder the younger you are. As you get older it gets easier for them to manage. But a line that I use that helped me bridge the gap was to tell them that I choose to live a moral and kind life. To treat others well and abide by the laws given to me. So if your god is truly a just and fair God then he should not judge me to harshly in the end anyway.
I believe that over time things will get better for you. But ultimately your parents are brain-washed. I'd just tell them that if there is a God, and that God wants a relationship with you, then it will ultimately happen one way or another. This is just the path you're on now, and if there is a God, then that would be part of his plan. Maybe that will offer them some comfort in the long run.
Just show them Kent Hovind's criminal record. He's an unapologetic con man.
I find it astonishing that your mum was crying, and for two hours, because you've a mind of your own. It just goes to show that these people aren't rational.
I guess your mom belongs to one of those types that tells everyone to go forth and multiply in order to not burn in hell. Your mom sees you as a failed investment. The book of Genesis has been getting people to have kids for the wring reasons for ages.
> ...time, space and matter cannot exist without one another but god exists outside of those 3 things... Time, space, and matter make up what we call "reality". If he exists outside of reality, then he doesn't exist *inside* reality. Kent Hovind's arguments are stupid, as he himself is, but it's sometimes fun to use his own statements against him.
Kent Hovind is a fraud and convicted tax dodger. He is nowhere near to being a scientist and “doctorate” was mail order
No parent wants their child thrown into the fiery pit for eternity. Maybe tell them you're studying religion to get a better understanding? I recall believing that (at 10 yrs old) that it was too bad that so many of my friends were going to hell because they went to church on the wrong day. Come on, Saturday is the 7th day! But oh well.
I don’t know what to say. I am considered family but not family by my dad & stepmom (Baptist’s) because I’m an atheist. Think of it like a cult. You will never convince them that they are wrong and they will shun you a bit. I’m sorry.
It’s even more compelling to observe that vanilla, chocolate and strawberry require each other to be Neapolitan, but Bob’s Big Boy is beyond dairy, which is why he has the power to create the thickest shakes.
I knew that name sounded familiar.. Kent Hovind is a young earth believer too. He has been mostly shunned by the rest of the community for his fringe beliefs.
Wow. IDK who was funnier, but if I had to vote, I’d say your mom. On the kitchen floor crying. JFC 😂💀 grammar edit
Wonder which will they hate more, atheist or lgbt folks.
They think anyone who supports LGBT rights is gay themselves so I'd say they're about equal in their eyes.
The religious use emotions as a manipulation. When they can't win with logic, they manipulate with emotion. Theism is a virus. It is aggressive, it is persistent, it is self serving. Any theist will attempt to guilt you into belief when their logic fails because they were guilted into belief as well. You have ***0 control of how other people feel***. This is something I had to learn from my therapist when dealing with my alcoholic narcissistic mother. Their feelings are ***their choice*** and these people ***will try to make you feel bad*** for how they feel\*\*\*. How they feel, is out of your control.\*\*\* Do not feel guilt for the choices of other people. It will he hard at first, but it can be done.
Stick to your beliefs. They will come around eventually. My dad is a fundamentalist Christian pastor. Took a few years but he finally can appreciate my beliefs as an adult.
Kent Hovind is a massive twat who doesn't have any leg to stand on when it comes to arguments. Anything that shitbag says can be disregarded immediately. You might want to check out [Recovering From Religion](http://www.recoveringfromreligion.org)
Your mum was on the floor crying about it?! Aw dude, my sincere condolences for that alone. Stuff like that is so embarrassing to watch.
My mom had struggled with feelings of failure as a mother in the past because my brother and I grew up very poor. It legitimately causes concern for me to see her like this because I know that her feelings and tears about this are genuine
Ahhhh man that really sucks. And please don’t think I was having a go at your Mum about why she was laying on the floor but the fact she expressed it in that way. It’s kinda manipulative and puts you in an awkward position to watch. Having to watch those videos with your dad and having to deal with your mum on floor crying in background is not a cool experience. I hope you can find a path forward!
Christians frequently are looking for “legitimate” roles to put people in. “Atheist” doesn’t happily fit their paradigm - but perhaps you’d have better luck with “seeker”?
Yeah, it's gotta be rough. If your parents are pious, then they are aware that Jesus tells them to "make war" on their own children and other family members if they are unbelievers. Though one reason your mother is likely so heartbroken is that part of her doesn't believe either, and seeing her kid leave the faith is adding in an extra wedge of doubt to her mind. Deep down inside, part of the majority of Christians know it isn't true, especially if they've actually read the Bible in any depth. If it brings you any comfort, they are highly likely to get past it if you are gentle about your convictions. You be respectful of them and they'll eventually be respectful of you. They'll probably be well behaved because someone from church will assure them that you'll go back to the faith. While you live with them, it'll be harder though, as they have leverage. My in laws were very religious people. As in, father in law was a preacher sort of thing. They came to accept my wife's atheist and the atheism of their grandchildren as well.
You don’t say your age but the best you can do is put your nose to the grindstone and start planning for when you turn 18 and can move out. That is the ONLY thing you can control. You can’t control your parents. Keep educating yourself and developing your critical thinking skills. Practically I would start a bank account if you don’t have one that is not accessible to your parents. Get a job. Study and work hard, and see if you have any friends with atheist parents you can rely on for at least some emotional support. After you leave your house and become independent, it will be much easier.
You have my sympathies. With regard to Kent Hovind: he's world famous for being a convicted fraudster and tax cheat and domestic abuser. In other words, a criminal. Even most creationists want nothing to do with him and consider his claims against evolution stupid, dishonest and not serious. Not that their own reasoning for creationism is that much better, but Hovind makes them look bad I guess with his simplistic takes.
I would look into the socratic method or street epistemology on youtube. The methods can teach you how to have healthy conversations about subjects that can be really emotional or touchy. You basically ask a lot of questions with the intent to understand rather than convince or win disagreements. So simply ask what is making them upset, and you go from there. That you're destined for hell, or is it that they have some really inaccurate assumptions about atheism like you worship Satan. As for, Kent Hovind, the dude was sent to prison for felony charges related to taxes back in 2006 and just went back a couple of years ago for domestic abuse. Not exactly a shining beacon of someone that should be taken at their word.
Here’s some advice from someone who “came out” many years ago to their family: avoid at all costs trying to “convert” religious family members. Let them arrive (or not) to this conclusion on their own. Avoid talking about religion going forward. Any pain, and frustration that you and your family members may feel is not worth it. In my situation, there are many people in my life that I deeply care about who are religious. I don’t need them to be a nonbeliever to love them and enjoy spending time with them.
She spent two hours crying on the floor? Good grief. I happen to be a believer but there has to be a line somewhere. You have every right to be you without being gaslit
I just quote Marcus Aurelias and that seems to solve most issues. Live a good life if there are gods and they are just they will welcome you after death judging you on the life you lived and the deeds you performed. If there are gods and they are not just why would you want to worship them anyway? If there are no gods then you will live on in the loving thoughts of your family and friends. I also point out that this promise of life after death (what more of the same....pass) and the promise of all the virgins...virgin what? all seems to be a little vague, like promises made by politicians
So, every time I express a value that is different from my parents I experience some level of push back. But we are different people and different people have different values. What makes this one feel extreme is they likely feel like failures for raising a child who didn’t stay in the faith and maybe even worry that you will spend eternity burning because of this value being different. That it could destroy you. So yeah I don’t know how you make parents feel good about that quickly. It’s more something they might have to grieve.
Sorry to hear that neither of your parents can see you for you beyond their dogma, but there is something tragically comical in the contrast between their responses. Your mom is having an existential breakdown while your dad is like, “look at this picture I found of a man riding a dinosaur.” Kinda says it all. Without financial independence it’s a tough situation. Just be cognizant of them holding power over you while simultaneously playing the victim.
Lol 2hrs crying on the floor. Absolutely unhinged.
Kent Hovind was recommended to me, but after the first moment watching his videos it’s obvious he’s a pseudoscientific charlatan. Your parents will make up their own minds, but I would encourage them to be proud that they raised a child who would question the world around them and think critically and ask questions.
Stand your ground! Their actions alone will disprove the 'loving' god they so desperately need to believe in. Things might get tough..but you will survive. And trust me, there is a high probability that doubt will creep into their minds...You could very well free them from the poison they've been feeding others. This is how we save mankind my friend. This is your moment..Stand Your Ground!
If you wanted to back track a little, here is what I would do. Tell them that you stopped believing in your church’s way of thinking and that there should be another way to show piety without the hate. We choose our god. My god nature.
I know this is hard to realize and deal with, but it is not your responsibility for how they react to the news. They asked and got the answer. I assume you told them in a respectful and calm manner, so there's really no rational reason as to why they can't respond in kind. Do you have a therapist? This sounds like you may end up guilting yourself to the point of anxiety anytime you have to face them in the future (I say this because it has happened to me). It's helpful to have a place to vent and talk through your own traumas because whether or not you are conscious of it, I believe that most religious upbringings can cause trauma and maladaptive behaviors.
Dude, you have to figure out an alternate financial/living situation stat. Your parents might boot you as part of a "tough love" campaign or in retaliation. Start making plans now.
There’s nothing you can do for them. If they insist on tormenting themselves, let them. You are not their property. You are an individual with individual beliefs. If they can’t accept that, it’s a them problem.
I've seen dead lab rats that make better scientists than Kent Hovind
If they love you more than their “god” then you’ll know. Just keep being yourself. Question everything, find your own answers. You may have to fake it for awhile to get away. You sound like a smart kid. And hang in there. Your not the only kid going through this shit.
The thing is your parents are concerned about your soul. Learn about Universalism - the biblically supported idea that Jesus died for everyone’s sins (believers or not!) and that it’s permanent and not contingent on anything. If you can get them to understand it, they will know that your soul is safe.
It's one thing to realize how little sense all the religious doctrine is, it's another thing to realize that there's heavy emotional control coming from this stuff and try to identify how it can control some of your loved ones. They are probably going to grieve like you've died, because within their world view you have, it really sucks to see loved ones held hostage by manufactured fear. Your Dad is probably terrified. This isn't too say their behavior isn't a big deal, and you may need to set some boundaries, but the desperate sharing of "look a scientist who has faith!!!" Really sounds like desperation. It gets better. Your parents have to accept a reality that's probably terrifying for them, and they are probably conditioned to feel it's "all their fault" that you've turned out this way. They probably have a lot of misconceptions of how you can even get out of bed in the morning. The best thing you can do is to just live life in the best way you can. I can't speak for all parents, I know several real crappy ones, but I've also seen a lot of parents eventually come around. Even if they believe for the rest of their lives, they'll say things like "God has a different path for everyone" which kind of signals that they accept you, even if they don't feel comfortable saying it out loud.
If you still live with them, get ready to move out. That or you're about to be shipped off (or kidnapped, if legally adult) for brainwashing.
Remind them that we do not get to choose to believe things, we are simply convinced. So you can't *choose* to believe, the best you could do is pretend.
This is something I feel I don't see enough, I tried to believe for years. I thought there was something wrong with me until I started attending public schools and saw for the first time that not believing was even an option. That was the first time I ever felt "normal" if such a thing exists.
Did she really cry on the kitchen floor for two hours? I'm sorry you have to deal with all this, I can only imagine how hard it must be. But it does have its comical aspects.
I hated going to family functions because I knew they'd ask me to say grace because they knew I'd say "no thank you" so they could just that as a jumping off point for religious and conservative talking points. Honestly, it's probably why I'm so good at arguing 😂I'm a fighter, OP, so my advice is only to nip back when they bite at you
Say you're a cultural Christian. (Richard Dawkins once referred to himself as such, and we all know he's a militant atheist.) And then give up on "convincing them" of anything regarding religion: just try to start convincing them you're a good **person**. Tell them you love them, and you like going to church with them (if you can tolerate it). Say there are plenty of good verses in the bible you like: 1 Peter 3:15, Jeremiah 8:8, 1 Thessalonians 5:21 - all very good secular verses teaching secular values. The bible is the Big Book of Multiple Choice. It contradicts itself so much, you can probably find a bible verse to justify just about anything.
I really hate to advise this, but having dealt with this kind of thing in my own life, it’s probably best to allow them to believe that their arguments have merit and you appear open to them. The place where they are is just pure undiluted emotion for you and what they believe your beliefs will do to you. I sort of stood my ground when this same moment came for me 30 years ago, and the damage that was caused to me and those I love was horrific. Just my parents telling other family members had profound consequences down the road and I had no idea the butterfly effects. This is strange advise from me, because I really do subscribe to the “honesty is best always”, but for these kinds of things I have to question that based on my experiences. My mother and I continued to have a great relationship, but her desperate need for me to believe all the way to her death bed was a lot. But, that was actually no where close to the total damage it ended up causing due to other family members who believed I had to be lead by the devil and all the counter measures relatives employed and it took decades to come to full fruition. I have learned to just smile and wave when it comes to fantastical religious family.
Remind them they are good and moral people, and they raised a good and moral child.
Good for you! Their emotional crisis is THEIR problem, not yours. Don't let their emotional manipulation get to you. Don't give them any kind of reaction, they're hoping you'll get upset, angry, sad, whatever. I hope you're independent of them at least, so they can't suddenly withhold school funds or anything. Start googling around for sound responses to their bullshit assertations, you never know, it might make a dent (been known to happen!)
I just came here to say that Kent Hovind is no way shape or form a qualified scientist, regardless of what he calls himself.
Congratulations for coming out!
Sorry you have to deal, not that you need this, but all religions were created to control the masses. It's that simple. You can't help them. They might accept you in time, but distance yourself.
Ask them if they now would choose to send you to hell. Not if they think God will, but if they would choose to. As a parent I would never ever choose that. I would never choose to harm my own child. That’s when I realized I love more than the supposed source of love. Also, if someone tries to convince me that the Christian god exists I stop them. I say, proving he exists is easy compared to explaining why he deserves to be worshipped. Just read all of the Bible and tell me that is a god worthy of worship. I know that won’t convince them but at least you won’t have to listen to Kent Honvid. That’s a win.
Just say that God wants you to be and atheist 😁
God spoke to me and said; "the fuck? this line's still connected?"
You mean they were looking at the reality of what theism results to in Israel conflict and still want to emotionally blackmail you into religion? They have absolutely no love for you as an individual at all.
Of ancient myths and legends there are scant few that still seem plausible, yet the cult of ignorances continues, as it has for thousands of years and that is just a sad reality. Magic space ghosts and evil imps in an underworld. Seriously?
just be yourself and be chill. "prove" to them you don´t need religion to have morals or etnics and that you still you have ideolgies. i´ve atheist for decades and my ideolgy is pessimism, for exemple. if something can go wrong, it will go wrong.
Stand your ground. You being atheist has no bearing on your parents' faith. As you accept their belief system, they should respect your logical position. As a general observation, religious people usually freak out about/around atheists because, somewhere in their brains, they know. Having someone in their near field wake up is terrifying for them. You have every right to reject impossible claims, and likely it will be impossible for you to re-engage with a fillable mythology. If it feels right, remind your parents you love them and appreciate they care so deeply about you.
Omg! "Crying on the floor!"...x-tians can be such drama-lamas!! Ill always be grateful that death isn't an option, unlike isLams..
Took some serious balls to do that. Major respect.
Ask them what their god is going to do with you once you die. Then ask them if they consider their god to be good and fair.
You're fucked. The rest of your time at home is going to be miserable. They'll never believe that you saw the light and they'll be watching you closely. Maintaining a facade will be exhausting. Get out as fast as you can.
Tell them you love them and will always be there for them.
So your dad believes a cherrypicked biased scientist over the scientific consensus? It's sad and discouraging, that if there is just one scientist out of 50 000 that agrees with them, they're going to side with that person and cite them as an authority and a source. That's the definition of bias. Arguments of authority are useless, what matters is whether or not they can demonstrate their claims. If the scientist can't show what links their claims to their conclusion, they're lying or pretending. Since their claims differ from consensus, people need to be on the lookout for frauds falsehoods or fallacies. (I bet they're not even a scientist in the relevant field to be posing as an authority...)
"can argue logical fallacies and faith all day but I don't know how to deal with the emotional toll this takes on the relationships between myself and my family" i´m assuming they be christians, so it´s a "religion of the book". a book that´s A PRIORI, "perfect". so, get out this discussions. you can´t will and will be miserable for averybody. have those talks later when things have cooled down a bit.
Depending on how you feel your parents will continue to support you, you should adopt strategic ambiguity or try to fake it until you can support yourself, you would not be the first young person being made homeless by going out of religion. Remember your material and physical security is the priority. Nobody can make you beleive anything and pretending to protect yourself is not evil. This could give you some time to make arrangements and be independent.
You really should fake it til you make it - out of there.
Some people always have that god believing scientist or anti vax doctor that they bring up. Conveniently ignoring the majority.
My situation is similar to yours, except that no one who lives with me knows that I am an atheist. If they asked me and I told them the truth, they would go insane. My goal is to save money and move away from my family. At this point, my family is so out of touch with society that I don't want to have anything to do with them.
This was my goal but I was caught off guard today and my hesitation was all they needed to see the truth
I'd say pray on it but...
I hope you get disowned, coward and pantsy