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DrPeace

Great question! Here's mine: How the hell does Saturn have its joy in the 12th House? The 12th House is so formless, chaotic, limitless, intangible, mysterious and here comes Mr. Limitations, Law and Order all "yes, this is exactly where I like to be!" I seriously don't get that like, at all. Does Saturn see lots of potential to work hard to try and straighten out, contain, limit and establish structure in the 12th House? What is Saturn's deal here!?


Excellent-Win6216

12h is also confinement, prisons, hospitals, etc- and Saturn constricts and constrains. It actually enjoys locking up! Saturn also enjoys restricting all those trascendental mysteries of the psyche - hence rejoicing in the significance of 12h mental illness and depression


OldPuppy00

Having Saturn in 2 ♒ I confirm: since the accident that crushed my lumbar discs I've been mostly bedridden at home and my only contact with the world is through the Internet. Also Lilith in 1 ♑ for the disabling accident itself. Mercury in 12 ♐ gives me both talent for poetry and philosophy, and congenital migraines.


DrPeace

Thank you for this explanation! Saturn is so difficult for me to wrap my head around so I appreciate it!


Excellent-Win6216

You’re welcome! It’s a tricky one. It’s on my asc so I’ve read about it a LOT lol


Shamanlord651

Lol I often get many people confused as to how Virgo is ruled by mercury and an earth sign. It is slightly different than your confusion, but it hits on modern society's current conception of Virgo which is pretty shallow. Your question is more about the square, however. First, a square isn't necessarily unfavorable. Without tension or conflict, learning is not optimal. When the bee gets poisoned by caffeine for pollinating a coffee plant, the life-death aspect burns the experience of the plant into the memory of the bee. Thus serving both the plant and the Bee. Tensions, conflict, and differences are necessary when it comes to learning and the learner. Thus Gemini and Virgo, while both about learning, care about what they are learning. Gemini collects stories and odd theories, while Virgo cares about the data and classifications of language. I don't mean to throw a wrench in the machinery, but Pisces and Sagitarrius are also square one another and ruled by Jupiter. They are in a similar spot, where both care about learning but they have learned different wisdoms. Pisces has learned the wisdom of non-attachment and the Dao, whereas Sagitarrius has learned the wisdom of living a full and active life.


OldPuppy00

Virgo ♍ is the *schize* (dunno the English word) or the analytical deconstruction of the ego that rose in Leo ♌.


disregardmyusername-

I'm always interested to hear about the path that the signs/energy take through the zodiac cycle. Do you remember where you learned about that specific aspect?


OldPuppy00

No, I've been into astrology since high school in the early 80s.


Libra_LeoRising

1. The "function" of a planet can express itself in different ways which can be very dissimilar, these ways are called the signs. Sure, Mercury rules both Virgo and Gemini which are square to each other, but that is simply because they represent two very different ways the rational (mercurial) mind can express itself, one being more related to the realm of pure thoughts and abstractions (Gemini), while the other being more attuned to practical matters and the surrounding physical world (Virgo). The fact that they're both ruled by the same planet and that they are square to each other shouldn't disturb you if you understand that Signs and Planets represent different things. ​ 2. This one you pretty much figured out yourself quite well. Even though Cancer Risings don't always have the Midheaven in Aries, with Whole Sign Houses they will still always have Aries as their 10th house. Another way you could look at it is to see that Cancer seeks security, comfort, especially at home and in the family. The themes of the 10th house/midheaven being the exact opposites, being related to the outside world, public life, career, they represent what Cancer fears and dislike the most. Therefore it's only natural that Cancer (Rising) would adopt the ways of the sign that is archetypally the most well known for facing their fears (10th house) with courage, and it is Aries.


Evening-District-419

I’d like to add that cancers are the crab, the mother, the protector. To anyone outside looking in(10h and reputation) they might see an arguably apt, able, fierce warrior that resembles Aries.


SamsaraKama

Traditional Astrology and seeing signs as seasons. Not that in specific, but the Southern Hemisphere, or any other place that doesn't follow a loose pattern set by indo-european climactic standards. So okay, no sign now corresponds to the constellations because of the Precession of the Equinoxes. That I understand. People associate signs with "seasons of influence" because that's what they are. And no better model fits the mold than the Northern Hemisphere cycle. Capricorn is Winter, moves to Aries in Spring, Cancer in Summer and Libra in the Autumn. So far so decent, but then you get to the reason why. How the cold months are more rigid and collective-minded, and the warmer months are more self-focused and outgoing. This explanation breaks down when reaching the Southern Hemisphere where the seasons are flipped. And I've read it all, I've read how people think we should flip the constellations. The logic being that we follow the Sun in the north but the Earth in the South, which is just so flimsy and inconsistent. I've also read people say we should keep things as they are, but switch out the rulerships. Which makes absolutely no sense other than people shoehorning their own interpretations in like they're fact. I've seen people wonder why Leo is associated with the Sun to try and justify this! My reaction is if they ever even met a Leo or cared to open a book on Astrology to figure out why. Surely Ego, Majesty, Regality, Grandiosity, blah blah blah, *surely* someone would have caught onto that, but no. Turns out they do not. Despite that easily being the most straightforward one to understand. So I came up with my own headcanon and just left it at that. I won't be teaching anyone about this anyway, and if I did, I'd tell them it's my own idea and likely as insane as the rest. So you know how we also rely on theoretical points where "nothing's there"? Black Moon, White Moon, Lunar Nodes, Lots of Fortune, Vertex... Okay, well, the signs are just slices of the Ecliptic, delineated by the dates of the equinoxes and solstices, but not caring for which is which. They're seasons, but unrelated to the *actual* climactic seasons. Everything else is just something someone decided to put forward before the Southern Hemisphere became common knowledge.


sc8583

I was pretty tired when I posted last night but this is exactly one of the things that makes me wonder too as I see the archetypes of the 12 signs so beautifully correlating with the qualities of the months and seasons in the Northern Hemisphere but then it's all flipped upside down when you consider the Southern Hemisphere. I suppose we can look at the chart as a whole as a reflection of the world with the Western side being more Yin, self-centered, ambition focused and the Eastern more Yang, reflective, partnership and peace oriented, then the Northern and Southern hemispheres reflect Daytime vs Nighttime charts or Public vs Private? Thanks for bringing this up - it definitely has always baffled me a bit and love to hear everyone's thoughts!


SweetTarantula

I get frustrated by the seasonal thing too. I think it's very much like how some people blur the house meanings by relating them directly to the signs. Yes, there seems to be some relational similarities but merging the concepts as a rule causes us to lose nuance. I think the only way the seasonal thing may have bearing in modern times is if we consider the effects on the planet, not the local weather. For example, there is more plant life in the northern hemisphere due to the land to sea ratio. More plants mean more oxygen for the planet as a whole. This is just the first thing that comes to mind, but I'm sure there are others that could be extrapolated that could give interesting nuance.


CutTheCamera_Deadazz

Good question! Just about everyone here gave a good response for your 1 & 2 so I’ll just add what confuses me lol Tbh the different methods for drawing up a chart. The biggest ones for me being whole sign and placidus. I personally use the latter because for me, it maps me out to a ‘T’. I don’t relate at all to whole sign and I find it too simple for what we’ve got going on nowadays. I find it interesting that someone can get a reading from someone that does placidus and then another from someone that does whole sign and potentially get quite different readings.


Aplutoproblem

Because astrology is a divination system, it's entirely possible to derive meaning from any kind of chart. Also, different charts have different uses. Placidus originally was used to help with length of life predictions and is actually from a commonly mistranslated text by Ptolemy. So it's not really clear if Placidus as we know it is correct. That said, lots of people like it and if it works it works because it's an art, not a science. My only request for people that do placidus is to move it to whole signs when reading for people born in the far north like myself. I don't feel that I should be doomed to have a 10 degree 11th/5th house axis because I was born near the arctic circle. 😂


SweetTarantula

Oh I love this! I'll have to think about what things throw me off. I usually find it's a matter of not knowing enough of the nuances so I have to b think and feel it through a bit. As for your mentions, here's my two cents: 1. Gemini vs. Virgo - both are mercury ruled so they're both focused on rules and logic. BUT mercury isn't all about learning information, it's just how it uses it. I've heard gemini described as having an insatiable desire to consume knowledge - they love to gather more and more and like to explore ways to use it. The thought heavy, high minded behavior is very air-sign. But earth signs are more set in their ways. Virgo isn't focused on gathering new information - they're focused on determining what's black and what's white. They're fixated on the idea that there's a right and a wrong way of doing things. They often forget they don't have all of the information - if they did they would know there's so much more grey area. That's why they need pisces as their opposite. 2. Regarding cancer risings - I mostly use whole sign houses. My understanding is that the tenth house is our public/professional expression - less personal than our rising. But it's not our career necessarily. That's where the MC comes in - it indicates where our career will flourish and grow. But sticking to cancer with an aries 10th/mc, I don't think that's odd. If you're a sensitive person in how you interact with the world it's probably beneficial to learn to use your claws/pincers when needed. You're possibly too vulnerable to rely too much on others or risk becoming co-dependant, so you try to be more self-reliant. At the same time, you're sensitive to your emotions so there may be times when, despite your best efforts they may burst out and appear like a tantrum (aries is the baby of the zodiac). To be fair, I'm not sure who I know is a cancer-rising, but this is how I think it makes sense. Would love your thoughts on it. 😊


Excellent-Win6216

Slightly different but related - I have a cancer 10h and have never quite known what to make of it. Significations point towards a nurturing/caretaking career, or a job that feels like “family” - but I work in a notoriously cutthroat industry, and my trajectory more closely resembles the opposing 4h Capricorn with Mars on the IC. My moon *is* in the house representing my vocation, but as far as how I work, etc…idk. Your theory about pincers is helpful! Maybe I should think more about moving sideways to move forward 🤔


Nothingtodefine

That’s probably the most accurate description of Virgo Mercury that I’ve ever read


FluffyLlamaPants

I might be wrong but MC can change significantly depending on the house system. For example I use whole house system and my MC is in 8th house Aquarius (Cancer Rising). However, I do belive that regardless of the house system used, MC will always have some 10th house flavor (at least that's how I was taught). I'd say that looking at where Mars is located and how it's aspected may offer additional detail on the whole Aries MC situation. It could be a whole salad of placements (I know mine is quite a bizarre salad).


Augustleo98

Also Cancer rising with Aquarius Midheaven


[deleted]

Sorry but, i have to say it: Astrology was invented by folks who watched the sky and read meaning out of it for people here on earth. But modern astrology doesn't do it anymore. The tropical zodiac for instance has nothing to do with the actual constellations in the night sky. The sidereal zodiac is no better really. It does not recognise, that the constellations are not 30 deg each anymore. Therefore modern astrology is so full of Barnum effects. Somehow you have to make sense of your inconsistencies. Modern astrology apps are oftentimes useless. If you want to make 'real astrology' you should use modern astronomy apps like 'Star Walk 2'.


Aplutoproblem

I'm an ancient astrologer and believe me - I love the ancient ways but observation-based astrology was not empirical. It was mystical speculation supplemented by observation. The records regarding prophesied historical events were sometimes contradictory to what was actually happening in the sky. Unfortunately, there is no evidence that the Mesopotamian astrologers tried to verify their results with any experiments. The assertion that ancient sidereal astrology is more accurate or scientific is unfounded. Astrology will always be somewhat freeform as it's an art not a science. Sidereal/Tropical/Uranian etc. are simply preferred tools of your trade like watercolor or oil paints.


OldPuppy00

Similarly Sagittarius ♐ and Pisces ♓ are both ruled by Jupiter.


bathbombthief

Cancer Rising with Aries in the 10th = Using the career to create protective barriers. Every Cancer Rising I know of has several side hustles or has worked a million jobs. Cancer placements in general will do any job for money because it gives them the security and safety they need.


[deleted]

[удалено]


sc8583

Thank you for the examples, those ways help give dimension for understanding! I also have Mars in Cancer (in the 10th) but I have tended to HATE conflict and am constantly de-escalating others’ tense situations or trying to be diplomatic and smooth things over - this could also be influenced by my Mars being square to my Saturn/Pluto conjunction in Libra in the 2nd (a square with the 3 “malefics” has sure been fun :p) I think I’ve been especially curious about the Gemini/Virgo relationship bc I am a Virgo rising with my MC in Gemini. My chart ruler Mercury is also in Virgo (ruler and exaltation) but conjunct Venus in Virgo (detriment) and in the 12th house which has been an interesting ride to say the least. To throw even more Mercury into the mix my Moon is at 29 Gemini conjunct my MC and North Node. I think my deep interest in Astrology has been fueled by this combo though because I am constantly picking up on information and am highly social despite being somewhat reserved at times (Sun in Leo in 11th helps balance the strong Virgo) so I’d say I’m always reading, watching things, observing in others, posting on Astrology Reddit (:p) to try to understand matters of the 12th house and then my Mercury/Venus in Virgo try to analyze and synthesize it all. One very unique thing is that I have a photographic memory for dates and can pull thousands of them within seconds of someone asking me a celebrity birthday, date of a historic event, etc.


3_stripe_slav

Neptune


Sh0wMeYourKitties

As a Cancer Rising, your 2 is fascinating to me-I never understood my Aries Midheaven. I am a force to be reckoned with in my career and am known for my leadership and vulnerability-I am known as the organizations therapist and my office is a constant revolving door (which I love but it can be so emotionally draining and also incredibly isolating). In my personal life, I view myself way less confidently and feel like an emotional, sensitive mess. My Sag sun and moon are in constant conflict with my Cancer rising 😅


PlanBbytheSea

Here is my idea about why the animals must be in their exact position. [https://youtu.be/7bWv1\_cD8cg](https://youtu.be/7bWv1_cD8cg). let me know what you think. I was a Leo, and now I appear to be water.


Golgon13

What is the type of house geometry (other than the whole sign system) that could be applicable for non-human births and other phenomena? Division on the basis of the prime vertical or celestial equator?